#48 || Robert Pye & Melissa Dakers: No Habitat, No fish

Welcome to Doc Talks Fishing. Where science and fishing make a big splash. Join Gordon Liam with this week's guest, Cephaly. Hi folks, Gord Pys are here and I'm here with Liam. This is, this is kind of a unique subject if you will. Because, and it's what I'm gonna say at the very beginning once we get our guests on. But every fishing story, every fishing story, whether it's a successful one or one about the big fish that got away, it starts with our subject today and that's fish habitat. We got two folks on. This is actually the first time we've had two guests at the same time and one is Robert Pie. I've known Robert since when he goes way back to the Ontario Federation of Angola and Hundred Days. He was a senior executive with them. But now he's the executive director of Watershed's Canada. And joining Robert today is Melissa Dackers and Melissa is the Habitat and Stewardship Program Manager with Watershed's Canada and this is gonna be really, really cool. Yeah. Well, I mean, we need no better two people than to talk about this sort of thing. I think it's really important that people are starting to realize now how important community and conservation is and that's really what the basis of this organization is and some of the work they're doing is just incredible actually. They just won a giant award which is pretty incredible and very well deserved. Yeah. You know, the award was actually and we'll get Melissa and Robert to explain it for us, the project. I believe it was a walleye project and I think they're seeing results spectacularly fast and not that everything happens overnight with these kinds of projects. But this was one where I believe and we'll get them to explain. But I believe they saw overnight results and the other thing I want to talk to them about and I hope they're gonna chat with us about is so many folks that we see that own properties are talking about, you know, there's fallen trees or there's big boulders in front of maybe their cottage or their house and or maybe there's cabbage weeds or cuntail weeds and they talk about cleaning it up, God, I hate that cleaning it up as anglers were going along the shorelines looking for those things. That's habitat for muskies and walleye and small mo. So you know, it blows my mind every time I hear folks talking about cleaning up the shoreline. Yeah. And I mean, this conversation today I'm sure is going to really point to this but it is so easy to do a lot of damage in a lake but it's equally as easy to do a lot of good for a lake. It doesn't take these massive projects and these massive steps, a prime spawning habitat maybe a stick in a bay and if you remove that stick in the bay, now there's no prime spawning habitat in that little area. But adding a stick in a bay could now create spawning habitat. So that's obviously an over exaggeration but it's fairly easy to do damage but it's also fairly easy to do some good so I'm looking forward to having this conversation big time. We're going to be talking folks about the one thing today that underpins every great fishing story and that's fish habitat without the reality is there's no fish. And there's no future for the sport we love it's really that simple. So we're super excited today. We've got Robert Pie and Robert's the executive director of Watershed Canada and we've got Melissa Dakers with us as well and Melissa's the habitat and stewardship program manager with the program. And it's really fitting folks because Watershed Canada recently won a prestigious award for its innovative fish habitat project and we're going to talk about some of those and much more. The team has been working tirelessly to provide, protect, restore and enhance critical fish habitat right across the country giving wall eyes, bass, trout, virtually every species the second chance to thrive. So this is one conversation Liam and I have looked so forward to because we're going straight to the heart of what makes great fishing possible. Melissa, Robert, thanks so much for joining us today and congratulations on the award. Thank you Liam and thank you Gord. It's I'm a big fan of your show Gord and Liam as you know because you really bring to life what Watershed Canada represents that we your slogan is I'm going to screw it up here but your slogan is you know making science accessible to the average angler and that's what we do as well. We're a science based organization but we work with the average anglers. So thank you for mentioning the award too by the way that's a really big deal for our organization. We are a small team, a team of eight. Every dollar we raise goes into the to our core programs or habitat restoration. So we don't we don't have money to tutor on horn and to have the attention of your successful podcast on Watershed Canada. It means a lot to us. So thank you. Oh you're more than welcome. What do you say Melissa? Yeah, thank you so much for having us today. It's a pleasure when I mentioned that we would be on your show today. My dad was just over the moon. He's an avid angler and a fan of yours as well. So he was he's very excited to hear this at the end and yeah, it's really great to be here. Awesome. Like Gordo said, we're equally excited to have you guys. I mean, what you guys are doing is so valuable in making great fishing for the average angler and also just looking out for the fish that can't defend themselves. So thank you guys for doing what you're doing. I think Gordo's you're probably going to try and hop into that lightning round right away here. You know, I am. It's always a fun thing. Excuse me, just to go through two, three, four questions, guys, I'll give you a question and we'll rotate back and forth between the two of you. And you just tell me the first thing that pops into your mind. So we always have fun with this. Are you ready? Yeah. I'm excited. All right. Let's go. Robert, what's the first fish that made you fall in love with fishing? Brook trope. And you know, a lot of kids started, I'll assume that a lot of kids started with a hook landing sinker off the side of a dock. I didn't. I learned finesse fishing right away. I was just, you know, could just walk and I was trying to keep up with my dad along the banks of a trout stream that was, you know, how that is. You're tripping over logs and getting your rod caught up in the tree tops and tree branches as I should say. But I really learned how to fish those undercuts and lo and behold, it was almost a, that experience was almost a portal to my future because here I am working with an organization that's all about habitat. And as a kid, I learned fishing in habitat because I knew that I wasn't going to catch a Brook trope fishing those easy spots. I had to get, I had to figure out how to get a worm into the stick jams and the undercuts. And I learned all that from a very young age. Wow. That's really cool. Melissa, when you hear the term perfect fish habitat, what pops into your mind? Definitely, woody structure. And I know Stephen Cook has mentioned this before. What is good and having it in a lake is very, very important. Clean, silk free spawning beds, native aquatic vegetation, natural shorelines, and definitely shade from shoreline trees. That's what pops into my head. Really cool. Robert, if you could spend one day on any lake or river, where would it be and what would you be doing? Gort, I'm going to head northwestern Ontario, Nipagun River. Oh, yeah. Nipagun. And again, to my Brook trope fascination, you know, home of the World Record Brook Trope, and what an incredible system up there underneath Alexander Dam, and you know, that whole stretch between Lake Nipagun and Lake Superior is just gorgeous. It's so nice. In fact, that's where I got married. Wow. Oh, right on. Liam was just over there a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. Fish on the Nipagun. Melissa, you've worked on a lot of conservation projects over the years. What's the most surprising thing you've seen fish do when they were given their habitat back? I think for me, and this actually just happened recently on that teased lake, seeing small fish moving into a spawning bed area that we have just cleaned with high pressure hoses and get removing all the silt and debris and algae from the rocks, we were surrounded by schools, of minnows, and other small fish, and we hadn't even packed up our equipment yet. And they weren't there when we started. So just to see that was like really incredible. Wow. Robert, you're cooking shore lunch to celebrate a restored fish habitat. What's your go-to meal? Okay. Well, everybody likes to serve fish. Yeah. I know. It would be a sin to tell you that I'm going to cook the fish that we're trying to help you know? But in all honesty though, the expression surf and turf, well, I lean more on the turf side. And specifically, I love to have venison sausage, especially I would ice fishing. That's a good hearty meal to have venison sausage on a bun on that grill by the ice shack. I think that's just the perfect deal for me. Wow. I want to be there, Melissa, if you could restore one fish habitat anywhere in the world to make a huge difference for the fish. What would it be? Where would it be? That's a tough one because I want to help everyone or all the fish. But I would have to say, and this is something that we haven't gone into it yet, urban creeks because they're small and mighty and they're often overlooked. And they are impacted the most by development. So I think I'd like to, I'd like to do that work on urban creeks. Wow. Very cool. Great answer. Last question for both of you. Robert, what's the one fish you've never caught that sits at the top of your bucket list? Tiger muskie. Yeah, and I'm so jealous of the muskies you catch in Lake of the Woods and I've fished waters that I know those hybrids exist. I just think that they're such a gorgeous fish. I've seen them caught before and they're just bright and vibrant and yeah, there's something kind of awesome about a tiger muskie. Wow. It's so hard to know, I think, and I think no actually. This has been like a big debate kind of in the science world. I won't make this too long-winded, but we have a certain body of water that has what look like the spitting image of a tiger muskie. Him exact patterns, one of the key characteristics of tiger muskies is round fins, rounded pectoral fins and an rounded caudal fin, much like a pike where muskies have pointed fins. This is a muskie with the exact same pattern of a tiger muskie and rounded fins. One biologist says it's a tiger muskie, another biologist says it's a muskie, but the kicker here is that this body of water was actually found to have a very unique strain of pure bred muskies. Oh, interesting. And so it may just be an extremely unique, ancient strain of muskies that have adapted alone over time and just morphed into this tiger-like-looking muskie, but still a really cool fish. If you want to catch a tiger muskie because of how they look in their attitude, they're pretty much tigers. I'm not sure if they're actually are, but it's still pretty interesting. Very cool. Last question to Melissa, complete this sentence for us. The future of fishing depends on healthy habitat and engaged communities. We're very cool, very, very cool guys. We mentioned the award at the very start of the program. Excuse me, got a bit of a cold. We'd be remiss if we didn't offer our congratulations on winning what was called the water Canada award. Can you tell us please a little bit about this recognition, what the project was, why it was considered such a standout of fish habitat restoration? Well, we're a national organization, Gord and Liam, and it really felt great to have after 23 years in existence, by the way. We've never had an award before. Wow. It never even thought to really have wanted one, but the night that we were called on stage as the award winner, we were in shock. The room was over 200 industry, water industry leaders. To have a project explained, like I was just so proud of our team because the MC explained the work we were doing for walleye and walleye, you know, a particular fish species had never been mentioned in the room before, and there we were on stage, you know, getting recognition for saving walleye. I'll let Melissa tell you what the award was 1-4, but I want to say that it was a big deal in terms of a small organization that really values that recognition and that recognition can turn into new partnership opportunities, this podcast, the promotion and publicity. So I feel very strongly about it and I'm so proud of our team. Bass pro shops and Cabellas have connected generations of anglers, hunters and outdoor enthusiasts. Every time you round up at the till, your change goes towards the bass pro shops and Cabellas outdoor fund that fosters real change in the outdoors. That supports over 2,000 conservation efforts every year across North America. So when you round up at the till, your change lets us partner with organizations that connect to kids with nature, protect and enhance fish and wildlife habitat, and advocate for the rights of all outdoor enthusiasts. By uniting our passionate customers with conservation leaders, we're taking bold actions to ensure a bright future for anglers, hunters and the natural resources we love. Bass pro shops and Cabellas, the leaders in conservation. Yeah, the award was for a small conservation project and it was on Big Clear Lake that we actually completed this project. And Big Clear Lake has a historic wildlife spawning bed that had become degraded over time. And the Big Clear Lake Association actually started the initial investigation into the decline of the wildlife population before 2019, I believe. But due to COVID, it was kind of put on the back burner and then they connected with us in about 2022, I think, maybe 2021, and asking for assistance in helping to restore their population. So we applied for funding and permits and we started this project actually in 2023 with our team and volunteers and we washed the spawning bed first using high pressure wash, water pumps and hoses. And we scrubbed the rocks with brooms and removed all the algae and silt off the rock substrate. And then the second part of the project was actually supposed to take place in the winter of 2024. However, if you remember, we had a very extremely mild winter in 2024 and we only had about nine inches of ice. So it was definitely unsafe for our team and all the volunteers to be on the ice trying to restore this bed. So we postponed it to 2025. And last winter in February, our team along with our partners and local volunteers restored that site by laying down 17 tons of clean river rock right on the frozen lake. That rock creates the perfect spawning habitat for the walleye, which are important native species, as you all know, and a big part of the local ecosystem there. And the fishery, and it was it was cold hard work, I'm not going to lie. We were in the middle of a blizzard, but we had enthusiastic volunteers and the results will keep that lake healthy for years to come. The project was actually supported by environment and climate change Canada's environmental damages fund, which takes environmental fines and puts it back into habitat restoration. So we were very fortunate to receive that funding. And with permits and approvals from the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources and Fisheries and Oceans Canada, it's one of 68 habitat projects that we have completed on over 40 water bodies throughout our 12 years as a fish habitat program. And we were so fortunate to work with the Lake Association as well as the local First Nations, the Shabbat of Badjuan. We even had chief Doreen Davis on the ice helping us. It was just a day I'll always remember. For sure. Wow, have you had a chance to, I assume the wall ice came in this year Melissa, have you seen any immediate results that quickly? Actually, we did because we have a very enthusiastic property owner that helped me coordinate this project. And David went out there, he's been doing walleye counts for years to check on the declining population. So he went out right after 2024 during that spawning season after we had just washed it. We hadn't even added the additional rock yet. And there were numerous individuals on the bed already. And he was just shocked just by cleaning it. And then when we added the rock in February in April, he said it was doubled. So we're very excited to see how this fishery rebounds and what the success is going to be. Yeah, I have to jump in here. I don't know Melissa if you, I worked with M&R for 31 years and so many folks used to come into the office and it was always hatchery, satcheries, satcheries. And you know, we got to stock more fish and. But you know, and I'm sure you're going to agree with me. The biologists were always saying, you give them a place, you give them a place to call home. And then leave them alone and let them do their thing. And it is so much better than spending thousands or millions of dollars on hatcheries and stock fish. Totally agree with you for sure, like we've been working with one group in the Bancroft area on Baptiste Lake and they want to initially wanted to stock. And M&R gave us like we have advice from M&R and we always consult with them first and they point out the same thing. They're like, we'll support your habitat work. We want to see what the native fishery is going to do if you restore it because you can put individuals in, but if they don't have a proper habitat, they're just going to die as well and they're not going to thrive. So you need to always focus on habitat first and that's what we do. Yeah. God, you'll appreciate this from your M&R experience, but we hear the same thing as well. People just want to see that and Stephen Cook mentioned it in his podcast. Everybody wants to see the hatchery trust back up to Lake. But you have to have a focus on habitat and the M&R to their credit is really putting down that message locally that we need to have habitat. Watershed Canada is one of the few organizations that it's actually doing habitat restoration work in a lake. There are a number of great organizations that are doing stream and river bank restoration and so on, which is great, but we're really unique because we're on a lake system, big lakes, small lakes, and the M&R is actually cheering us on. Now in as much as the Ministry of Natural Resources is talking about habitat, they love Watershed Canada because they know that they can't get out there to do it themselves, that they don't have the funding, that they depend on the community. They depend on Watershed Canada and we can do things much faster. We can rally organizations as Melissa talked about in the award that we won. As the fishing community ever had such a galvanized group coming together, First Nations, Lake Associations, Naturalist, Ontario Bass Federation, Ontario Bass Nation, pardon me, coming together, we're really proud of our work and again, it's being cheered on by the Ministry of Natural Resources. You know what it really points out guys is, and I think a lot of anglers miss this, is they just assume that a healthy fish habitat or a healthy fish population results naturally, but as you guys know, because you're working in the field on it, the habitat's changing constantly, and I guess what I'm going to ask from your perspective is, what are the biggest threats you see facing fish habitat today? Well, let's go back to elementary school when our teachers said, you know, used habitat as a description of a house or a home. And if we take that analogy a bit further, imagine that you're living in your home for 15, 20 years, but you've never really cleaned it up, and obviously you've never done maintenance, and all of a sudden the roof is going, and all of a sudden, you know, it's just not efficient as it used to be, and it's a place where you really yourself don't want to hang out until you do a major cleanup or a major restoration, a major repair. The habitat in lakes that is so valued but so overlooked is the bottom of the lake, the woody debris, and in Ontario, particularly southern and central Ontario, over the last four or five years, some of the lakes that were seasonal cottages only, now have the working from home culture and have Wi-Fi access, and the, you know, 12 or 1,300 square foot cottage is now a 55 hundred square foot home with 2.5 bathrooms, you know, washing machines, some even have pools, and they're becoming full on residential places on the lakes. The lakes are getting more pressure than ever before, which is fine, as long as there's an element of sustainability. And what we find is the property owners, new property owners, for example, tend to get into this mindset that we need to clean it up like the cul-de-sac that perhaps they, they came from, and it doesn't work that way. So the shoreline is being stripped down, cut down, or even mowed right to the water's edge, and what used to fall into the lake and provide that organic material to float around and drift around and be part of the lake system is not there anymore. So the work that we're delivering for fish habitat is critical, and if you've seen some of the underwater drone footage that has been posted on some fish hatchery websites of our brush bundles, it really strikes me that when you look at those brush bundles, the underwater drone goes along and it's going across the lake bottom, and there's nothing, there's nothing, it's a feature-less lake bottom, and then all of a sudden it finds our brush bundle. And there in the brush bundle is this, just this metropolis of life down below with menos floating around, and then in behind the brush bundle comes a nice smallmouth bass. So you really get the idea that when you see the underwater drone footage, how important our habitat work is, nobody will ever see it, boaters will zoom past it. It's in a safe place, but it's making a critical difference. But in terms of the biological importance and what's happening on the lake, I want to turn this over to Melissa, please. Yeah, liquid you mentioned, like development is key, that's one of the hardest things that are affecting fish habitat. We're getting a lot of hardened shorelines. People are cleaning up their properties, not letting trees naturally fall in. They're also, by hardening the shoreline, the wave action is now scouring away. And then we're also, like those especially, those shallow, weedy zones. People are trying to remove that vegetation, and it's so critical for young fish to rely on for food and shelter, without the protective plants, those waves and the runoff are causing more erosion, which is then causing siltation to spawning beds and to the rest of the lake. And that sediment smothers the spawning beds, and it fills in the spaces between the rocks and the gravel, and where the fish eggs need, that clean water to survive. And on top of that, we're getting nutrient runoff from lawns and agriculture that are leading to a lot of algae blooms, especially as the water temperature is rising. And the combination of those warmer waters and the excess nutrients, they really deplete the oxygen levels, making it tough for fish to breathe or find those healthy food sources. And of course, there's also the issue of invasive species, plants and animals that are now moving in to out-compete the native species for food and habitat. They can completely change the balance of an ecosystem, sometimes faster than we can sheep up with. And so that's why it's critical that anglers clean drain and draw your boats, which is law in Ontario, and we need to make sure that that is actually focused on, too. And of course climate change, it ties into everything, the warmer water, the shifting rainfall patterns that we're now seeing and the changing of flow. It stresses fish populations that have been adapted to these very specific environments. And some species can adjust, but others are really struggling when the conditions change too quickly or too dramatically. All these factors are really, really connected. And I think together they make it clear that healthy fish habitat populations, they don't just happen by chance. They depend on protecting and restoring that good habitat we've been talking about. We're proud to have Williams-Lewars as one of our podcast partners, whether you're fishing for brookies, bass or wallais, lake trout, northern pike or muskies, you can always find a Williams spoon for the occasion. Their precision crafted, in Sherbrook, Quebec, and every one of the testament to quality. For over a century, Williams has to go in their spoons with jewelry grade silver and 24 karat gold. That not only ensures longevity, but provides unparalleled flash that captivates even the weariest fish. When you're planning your next fishing trip, be sure to put Williams' spoons into your tackle box. To you, Melissa, Liam and I, we've got a favorite croppy lake. This is crazy, but I'm not kidding. We have a spot and it is a single log, maybe twice, with and length of your arm. We can guarantee that when the croppies come in in the spring and we fish this lake, should I fish it for over 40 years, I'm talking about a log, a single log, twice the size of my arm, and it is loaded with fish. We have gone around this lake time after time. We've never found, and if you're a cottager or a property owner, and you remove clean up, and it just drives me crazy when I hear people say we're going to clean up the shoreline, and you go, what in the world do you mean clean it up? When every time we launch the boat, that's what we're looking for. Just to think that you would see a little floating log in the water and pull it up and throw it on shore and think absolutely nothing of it, but that is, I guarantee it, the primary location on that body of water, and it's a stick, a log. Yeah, you're right Leo. It's super easy to just make those mistakes without even crossing your mind, the type of damage you might be doing to a system. Yeah, I have a cottage that is, it has speckled trout in it, and it's very small lake, there's only five of us on it, which is crazy, it's 120 feet deep, I love it, but we have this one log that has fallen into the water, my husband and I were big debate over, he's like, I'm going to let it fall on the ice, and I'm going to clean it up, and I'm like, no, you're not. I'm like, you're going to let that thing fall, and it's not in an area where we swim, just leave it, and I'll show you. So I showed him, and he could not believe the number of fish surrounding this log, and it was a large pine tree, it was just beautiful, and yeah, he's like, dang, I didn't realize that, and a lot of the time, people don't realize it until they physically see it. Yeah, no, absolutely. Our favorite muskie pattern, Robert was talking about muskies and tigers, and right after the season opens, our favorite pattern is burning bucktails against fallen trees. Now, if it's a fallen white pine red pine, if it's still got the needles on it, you don't catch anything. Our best trees are the ones that have sat there for five, ten, fifteen years. It is probably the best go-to muskie pattern as soon as the season opens, and so, you know, those fallen trees. I know Stephen Cook talked about it, but, man, wood is good. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, we always joke too, even with bass fishing, everything crappings bass, wall eyes. Remember that time, you and I were flipping and pitching for Largie's Gordo, and we caught a school of big wall eyes in a tree. Like, what? Liam and I have a go-to pattern, or go-to saying, never pass up a fallen tree. Yeah. Crazy. I was wondering if I could tap into you guys. Again, folks always think of gigantic habitat projects. You know, well, we destroyed this mass of whether it's because of a dam or whatever. But sometimes, very, very small, critical habitat is super, super important. Pivotal wall eye spawning area, like I think you won the award for, or maybe just a smaller critical bass nesting area. And I was wondering if you could share with us a couple of projects you guys might have been involved with, where you were able to demonstrate the habitat degradation, but then pulling it back, and how those fish rebounded quickly. Yeah, for sure. One project that actually comes to mind, and it's a great example of this, I would say, is a project that we did on the Muscrat River, and it flows into Jeffrey Lake, which is near Renfrew County in Ontario. And the lake was once had a thriving walleye population, and over time things started to change. They have volunteers that do walleye counts. They had restored this creek, this part of the creek before, but they were noticing their numbers were starting to go down, and it was because of a flood event. And the river got flooded out, and it created all this silt and algae on the rocks, which, as I mentioned, well, I require good, clean, oxygenated substrate, and it just smothered them. It went from, what did they say, 2022, Spring of 2022, they had zero fish spawning on this bed. And so we went in, we noticed the substrate was spawning. It just needed to be cleaned, so we got our permits, and we worked with the local Lake Association, and we worked with Ontario Anglers and Hunters, Zone F volunteers came and helped us, and we cleaned and washed the spawning bed. We even had a homeschool class come out, and the kids were all in there. We were teaching them about habitat restoration. We put up a silt curtain at the end of the creek, so it wouldn't flow into the lake, collected all that siltation and debris and algae, removed it from the creek, and the following spring, the numbers were 40 individuals, so from zero to 40 within a couple months. And yeah, so now we're really excited to see, and they said, every year, it has increased even more, and so I'm really excited to see how that walleye fishery is going to come back and how it affects the lake, for sure. And actually, that project was funded by the Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's Outdoor Fund. So when you round up for conservation, you are supporting the important work that Watersheds Canada is doing to restore that critical fish habitat. We have had multiple projects that are funded by that fund. Great example, and I was with Melissa that day, and I saw the enthusiasm of all the volunteers, and I wanted to mention that to your point about small projects, I think the term conservation for people is hard to wrap around in terms of a project that they can truly be involved in. Because quite often they'll see the big projects, the big trucks and the big machinery doing very complicated work, almost a team of engineers is required. But our work is really at the local level. So I like to think that we're not only restoring fish habitat, we're also restoring the conservation spirit. There's so many people that will, I expect that everybody that has ever volunteered with Watersheds Canada talks about the day that they were with us on a regular basis. I think that they would talk about the work that they did with us as much as they talk about the one that got away. As anglers, we're conservation as a badge of honor, so they should. What we are doing is giving them a doable project, a manageable success story that they can come in and be involved in. They are involved from start to finish. They just don't show up and plan a couple of trees and go home. They're actually out with us for site visits, getting our input, and they know that their input is just as important as the Ministry of Natural Resources input. One of my favorite pictures of our fish habitat program is Melissa at the tailgate of a truck talking with a local resident who brought his own maps and brought his own homework on the tailgate of the truck to show Melissa. I love that because that is engaging the community in real work. There's a lot of people that get involved in conservation for various reasons. There's some organizations that love programs, some people that love the policy side. Watershed Canada loves the people side. It's the people that come out and get really fired up about our work and we couldn't do it without them. One of the volunteers that was with us, Melissa mentioned the Bass ProShop Cabellas program, and a loyal customer from Bass ProShops. He's out with us doing a brush bundle project on Mink Lake. He found out that the project was sponsored by the Outdoors Fund and he said, "I had no idea. I've been topping up for years, and there it is, it's in my own hands." Wow. I should know the answer to this, guys. Excuse me again. Your organization is called Watershed Canada. Is it from coast to coast to coast? It sure is. Actually, it just became coast to coast to coast. This past summer with an organization and Yellowknife that has taken on our Nature Discovery backpack program. How are we a team of eight in Eastern Ontario and delivering coast to coast to coast? We develop all of our programs with a yellow brick road and a complete step-by-step. We are always on the search for program delivery partners. They from Buffalo Lake Métis Group to Lake Associations to Ontario Bass Nation. We work with all kinds of partners, conservation authorities, et cetera, and we are getting our program, our expertise, not only just on the physical habitat side and the shoreline restoration side, but we even get into the depths of fundraising and how to where to find grant money, and we don't even take the credit for that. We just want to make sure that other groups are successful, and that's the value system of Watershed Canada that we don't need to be in the limelight as long as the work is getting done. It is. We're in growth mode right now, and it's all thanks to great volunteers and partners and donors. Yeah. When you were talking, Robert, I know that a couple of your programs, one's called Love Your Lake, and the others called Fish Habitat Enhancement, is how to folks learn about those and what do they mean? The best, Melissa's actually looks after our Fish Habitat program, and that's one of about five that we offer. Our claim to fame, our biggest reputation is actually around shoreline protection and shoreline restoration, and notice I use the word shoreline, shoreline, and we talk about shoreline because it represents the entire riparian zone, and we like to think of ourselves as riparian zone experts. That riparian zone is one of the most critical pieces of habitat there is in the world. It is the place where over 90% of all wildlife feed, breed, rest, and nest transition zones. It's critical for species at risk, and of course, critical for keeping the weed line and the habitat in the water at the water's edge intact, and then good shape, which means good fishing opportunities. Our natural edge program has saved over 40 kilometers of riparian zone in the last eight years or so, and then as Melissa mentioned earlier, the Fish Habitat program has taken on almost 70 projects, completed 68 projects, with a whole bunch more on the way. We're into big talks right now, expanding our program into other parts of the province, and then the Love Your Lake program, which is an assessment program, as well as I mentioned in Yellowknife, now receiving our Nature Discovery program. Well we have a long list of lending libraries, public libraries that deliver our education programs where kids can sign out a backpack full of science activities and nature connection resources for both kids and parents, so we're really full scope. We're an organization that not only delivers habitat in the water, but also on the shore. Very, very cool. And the best way to be able to get involved in our work is to be on our newsletter list is the email is the most effective way that we can communicate with our supporters, because we just don't have budget for things like direct mail, and we just don't want to phone call people, being involved with our email list, and our website, and our social media presence. Every day is a treat for me to see what the team is posting in terms of real content, real educational content. Have you ever wondered what it takes for soft plastic baits to truly uphold the rapola legacy? 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With the Lake Trout, we've also been restoring their spawning beds as well, which is slightly different than the wall eye and different timings, and then the Brook Trout, we've been focusing a lot on what Robert mentioned, the riparian zones, making sure that there's a lack of erosion and a lot overhang and shading of the creeks to ensure that the temperatures stay cool and that there's a connectivity between habitats, that's a huge, a huge focus of ours as well. Yeah, I was wondering, when you guys clean up these spawning habitats, are you doing that like relatively close to post spawn so that it sort of has a year to, like obviously you're not cleaning it up during the spawn. Is there a specific time in the year you're looking for, or? Yeah. Yeah, so we work very closely, like I said with M&R, and my in-water work, it specifically has to be after July 15th. We tend to push it even to August, so we look at August and September our main two months because Trout start to spawn beginning of October, and we don't want to go into spawning, so having it done ideally right before Trout spawn is incredible. For Walleye, if it's a Walleye fishery, we can go a bit into October, that's not a big deal because they don't spawn till April, so in our area anyway, and so yeah, we try, we have a little window that we have to work with and try to get all of our projects done in a timely manner. Right, and especially on a lake that maybe doesn't have Lake Trout, you could be a little bit more lenient with the times that you're cleaning, but maybe if it does have Lake Trout and you're trying to clean for Walleye spawn, you have to make sure that you do that before the Lake Trout spawn. Yeah, and actually, we were really fortunate this year. We did one project on Walliston Lake, and the bed was actually used by both species, which is kind of unheard of, so it's kind of really neat in the fall, the Lake Trout are using the bed, and then in the spring, Walleye are using parts of the bed, and you could see how the substrate changed, so we were actually doing a dual project for dual species, too. Yeah, well, I mean, it just goes to show how important those critical areas are. If two species are using it at two different times of the year, then it has something special to it, whether that's for sure. Oh, no, I've kind of got two questions rolled into one year. We've been talking about folks, property owners, whatever, cleaning up the shoreline and destroying the very things that we as anglers love and go looking for. The first part of that question is you're dealing with anglers, property owners, just recreationists, if you will. How do you balance all of those things? But I guess more importantly, and you've worked and done this for so long, do you think that anglers and property owners and governments and conservation organizations, are we speaking the same language these days? Is there still that big disconnect that seemed to exist when I was your age, Melissa? Gordon, in my going on 30 years in conservation, I would say that the last three years has really filled my cup with hope in terms of getting people on the same page. We've had people show up in our events and say, specifically, this is a direct quote. I don't fish, but I know that what we're doing today is good for the lake, so I came out to help. We got Ontario Bass Nation involved on my initiative, because I felt like bass anglers are misunderstood by property owners, yet there are a lot of things that property owners need to have heard from the fishing community, that the fishing community needs to listen up to, you know, and respect property owners. So it was a good way to get anglers and cottagers or property owners on the same page, and we're seeing that very successfully, as I mentioned earlier, the Ministry of Natural Resources is cheering us on, and what's really important for the community. And the M&R to know is that our program brings those ideas and values to life that people can't just hear about conservation work. They actually need to have the chance to participate, and we are giving people that opening, and we're really proud of our connection with First Nations communities that have, as Melissa mentioned, Chief During Davis, 77 years old, and on the ice with her family, on a blizzard day, shoveling rock, and she actually not only brought out the volunteers, but she personally donated. And so, yeah, we just have incredible, incredible teams, and I think the future is bright for conservation. I'm really lit up, but it starts with Ministry of Natural Resources working with watersheds Canada to open up these opportunities in other lakes and get more people together. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I second that, because, I mean, I probably have a little bit more exposure to, like, the biology conservation, sort of scientific side of the community, then maybe the average angler, mainly through this podcast and growing up with Gordo, but going out west and working for the BC Conservation Foundation was hugely eye-opening for me in terms of conservation. And, like, the burning passion that people have for ensuring these fishes longevity, seeing what people are willing to do, and, you know, just spending time. Like you said, it's super important for people to get that hands-on experience with the conservation work to open their own mind in terms of it. And also, again, they work quite closely with the First Nations as well, which obviously offer a unique perspective that is invaluable. So, yeah, I agree with everything you just said, and it's all really important stuff, for sure. Thank you. Yeah, I love it. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mel. Go ahead. I was just going to say, like, when I'm often working with property owners and community volunteers and everything, like I talk to them, and I'm like, what brought you to the lake? Like, why are you living on the side of like, why do you have that property? And they're like, wow, look at it. It's just beautiful. And there's birds, and there's loons, and there's fish, and I'm like, well, that's what you value. So, your actions need to match your values, and allowing them to come out on these projects, they're like, I finally understand what you're saying. A lot of the times, too, they're meeting their neighbors for the first time. We've had that so many times where they had no idea who was living two cottages down the road. So, it's bringing the communities together, especially after the pandemic. A lot of people are doing the community projects that they used to do, and this is bringing people back together and doing it grass roots, and getting rolling up your sleeves, and pitching in. Yeah. Well, it's exactly fun. It's a great point. People move out to these areas because they enjoy the environment, they enjoy the trees, they enjoy the birds, all of this stuff that you can see. Maybe you don't fish, maybe you don't look under the water. But an example that I've used many times already, and I'm going to continue to use for the rest of my life, is that the salmon, the huge salmon runs on Vancouver Island are literally fuel the forest. They make bigger trees, they make more vegetation, they feed the bears. They work their way right up the food chain and create these amazing forests that the average person likes to hike on in the weekend or walk their dog, and they have no realization that it's the fish in the river is coming from the ocean that is providing this for them. So, yeah, it's a full circle sort of thing that's important to know about. You know, the other thing, excuse me again, Robert mentioned this, and it was part of the reason we really wanted you guys on the podcast today, certainly to celebrate your reward and victory, but from my perspective, so many folks think they can only get involved with these giant projects. And I have to be honest, even on Lake of the Woods, which is a huge, huge lake, some of the best things we've done are on one spawning area, one walleye shore, one baton, and for the folks that are on a lake that's 600 acres or 1,000 acres or 2,000 acres, there's just so much they can do, but they don't believe they can do it, but they actually can, thanks to folks like you, it kind of leads to another question here, and that is for the average person listening to us right now, someone who loves their local lake or they love their local river, what can they do to help protect fish habitat in their own backyards, and if they have a problem, how do they get in touch with you and work with you? Yeah, I would have to say, definitely start local, keep a shoreline natural. You go up to the lake to relax and enjoy it, don't be cleaning it up and cutting the lawns and creating lawns, that's the easiest thing to do is just to do nothing and let it naturalize. But if you do have some issues on your property, you can plant it with native plants. We have an awesome plant database, native plant database on our website at watersheds.ca that people can access, and like I said avoiding fertilizers or pesticides anywhere near the water is key and easy to do, you just don't do it, and always clean, drain, dry your boat to avoid invasive species spread, and I mean just reach out to watersheds, Canada. We love volunteers, like we said, where people people, and we have projects everywhere. And even if you don't live on that lake or angle it, we accept volunteers from anywhere and it's really exciting to see these projects firsthand. The more people that see this connection between healthy habitat and good fishing, the stronger the movement becomes, and it becomes second nature to protect that critical habitat. How do I connect with you, here I am on my lake and I see a major, major problem. How do I contact you and Robert Melissa? Do you guys have a website, is there an application process, is there a way that you will actually come out and take a look at my problem? What's the mechanism? Watersheds. Go ahead. It's a problem with two guests. Watersheds.ca is our website and it is simple to navigate and the most important thing there is the place to drop your email address and tell us what brings you there. From there, we do not spam, we get very specific with our emails and when you get an email from Watersheds, Canada, it's going to be a good one and it's going to be about improving opportunities. As Melissa said it perfectly, take initiative, if somebody is fishing on a lake, if you've got your favorite lake, you need to look deep inside yourself now and ask yourself, how can I give back? How can I give back to this great fish? Even if you do not live there, everybody can be a coach potato critic. I just say action over apathy and Watersheds Canada is a great example of how we take a simple comment and make it into a project. What happened in 2019, which we ended up winning the award for, there's somebody that just took the initiative called Watersheds Canada and said simply, I'm just not seeing the wall I like we used to and that started, Melissa got involved and said, well, we see if we can find the money to get paid for the materials and she started knocking on doors and from there we did site visit. It can really snowball and it always volunteers or somebody that makes that phone call or visits our website and drops us a note, they can hold their head up high knowing that they just didn't sit back and there'll be next summer, guaranteed there'll be lakes that are basically shut down for a week or so because a harmful blue green algae and everybody will be upset. But I got to say it, if somebody had decided a couple of years ago, I want to get ahead of this, I want to make sure this stuff doesn't come to our lake and got involved in Watersheds Canada shoreland restoration programs and did some naturalization along the shore, they could have combatted that. So get out in front of things, we have to be progressive, we want our government to be progressive, we have to show them how progressive we are as individuals. Yeah, very, very cool. Guys, we've tied you up for the better part of an hour here and we can't thank you enough and we want to give the last word to each one of you. So, if we fast forward 10 or 20 years from now, what does success look like for you? What is success in terms of Watersheds Canada 10, 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now, Melissa? I think for me, success for me looks like connected resilient lakes and rivers and communities that are taking pride in being stewards of their shorelines and of their lakes. If every property owner saw their slice of waterfront as part of the living ecosystem, we'd have healthier fish, cleaner water and a brighter future for that next generation of anglers. Yeah, one of the best compliments we ever received was through our natural edge program and one of our participants who was involved in shoreland restoration work on their own property, said to us after the planting, your program took me from being just a property owner to a custodian of the lake. So, in 10 or 20 years, I would hope that anybody that has access to a lake or has this fortunate enough to live on the lake or cottage on the lake will not only look at their own 100 feet of shoreline, that they will look around the entire lake and fill responsibility for it all. And in 10 or 20 years, my vision for Watershed's Canada is to be where we are today talking about communities coming together, galvanizing groups that would never have seen eye-to-eye or never connected with each other at a boat launch and being proud of working together and without hesitation and without any risk of not having the money when they have to go knock on doors. Yeah, you know, it's something that seems to be so prevalent in fisheries, whether it no matter what the issue is, we seem to have differences parking our vested self-interest and simply saying, this lake is important to me. That's the starting point, or these wall eyes, or these trout, or these bats. That's the thing we all agree on. Instead of having a vested self-interest park it over there and let's see how we can all work together, once we park those vested self-interest, we're going to be so much further ahead. Well, all I was going to say was congratulations on the award, firstly. It's very well deserved and thank you for taking your time out of your busy days to come and chat with us. We really appreciate it. Watersheds.ca, correct? Watershed.ca folks, go there right now and check it out and you may be part of 10 to 15 years when we come back with Melissa and Robert. It may be because of this podcast that that is the highlight and another award for Watersheds Canada. Thanks, guys, ever so much. We can't thank you enough. Thank you, Gordon. Thank you. Keep up with great work. Thank you so much. It's going to be a pleasure.