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Speaker 2Tim, let's move on to another category. Now this is going to be a biggie because I'm looking at this list and I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, a lot of our favourite records from this year in this category." Our pop rules okay. Yeah, yeah. There's some big hitters in here. I'll tell you that. Now let's start with arguably the biggest of all, of the biggest of all our pop albums, arguably the biggest art pop record of all time, although I think it's become even bigger recently for obvious reasons. No man's love blows and love cries. No, we're talking about Kate Bush, "The Hounds of Love." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously post-strange of things. This is even bigger than ever. It is. But there is a sense that this is the ultimate art pop record, isn't it? It's not Prague. It's not electronic. It's not pop. It's all of the above and it's something more to. Yeah. And I think many people would say that this is the zenith of her catalogue. It's not actually not my favourite and I'm just going to second guess that it's probably not your favourite either.
Speaker 3I'm sort of with you on this. I think it might be her best, but it's not my favourite.
Speaker 2The dreaming is my favourite. This is her best. I think I can say that. It is her best because it's like everything comes together. The pop sensibility, great pop songs that were massive hits, obviously. The whole side one is pretty much chock-a-block with songs that were big hits. And yet the second side has got the long conceptual conceit, the sweet, which has some of her most ambitious and experimental music on it. It's the quintessential perfect Kate Bush record and obviously also the fact that it was made in 1985, she is someone that embraces technology and uses it in the best possible way. It's a masterpiece. It's unequivocably a masterpiece. What would you say about this record?
Speaker 3I agree. I think it is her best album and this is the most streamlined perfect Kate Bush album. It's interesting you mentioned the word "streamline"
Speaker 2because sorry it's about him. One thing I was going to say about this, it's quite economical this album. Isn't it? There's not a lot going on. I try not to run out the hill. There's very little on it. There's that rhythm track that, you know, really extraordinary and immediately captivating rhythm track. The main fare like Maladir, and the rest is her voice.
Speaker 3Well in a way it's a bit like Prince's Kiss that's going to come in here afterwards, which is one of the most economical, mainstream productions. Yeah, everything is very, very carefully considered and every sound is really quite interesting, quite personalized. She knows how to use this equipment. She's got a vision for all. And again, it's one of those albums that sometimes, you know, when you're envious because you listen to an album and you think this is a work of art. It's uncompromising. It's visionary and yet it manages to communicate to the masses. You know, Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon" is another example of that. Talk talks color of spring in a different way as an example of that. When an album isn't remotely compromised and yet manages to kind of hit the public in a major, major way and continues to do so. As we said, stranger things, we're discovering running up that hill. And I remember with running up that hill because again, it must have come out around the time of Band-Aid and the first time I heard it was on Wogan. She was on the Wogan Show playing running up that hill. And I remember being absolutely fascinated by it, you know, satinial that was another single where I was totally captivated. And I was recalling the memory, you know, the melody because the single hadn't been released. And I was almost replaying this song in my head running up that hill. And it was when I'd in fact gone to Felix Stowe for these sessions with Robert Cox. And that track was just pummeling through my brain. And that's an example of something that, you know, gripped me from the first moment I heard it.
Speaker 2It's funny, you mentioned Prince and Kiss was coming the following year. But there is a sense that Prince had already been there and done that with When Doves Cry, which is another track which is so economical, you know, famously it has no bass on it. Prince recorded a bass and when he was mixing it, he sort of just pulled the bass fighter. Such a counterintuitive thing to do on a pop single. And yet it makes the track in a way. And there is something I think about that that mentality is prevalent right through this record too. In an era when excess was the by word, you know, let's be excessive, let's throw the kitchen sink at this. And she, you know, there is a part of the album, it's an album of contradictions, isn't it? Because she does do that too in a way. In fact, the second side, she has a choir, she has a Irish, what you call River Dancing type, I can ask to describe it, you know, that Michael Flatley comes home. Yeah, it's a Michael Flat, she has that kind of gay lick band, she has the choir, she has the sound design, she has, she has this massive conceit of the side-long, you know, epic. Not all of which, and for me, actually parts of that are slightly what let the album dirt down. I don't need to hear Jig of Life and watching me without you again, particularly, then my least favourite Kate Bush tracks on this album anyway. But the fact they're part of this, this long conceptual suite, just the fact somebody would do that in 1985. And it's interesting, you're mentioning this idea about hearing something on the radio and having almost to capture it in your mind because it's not like you can just replay it off YouTube, you know, or stream it again off your phone, you have to wait for the single to be released. And I remember this happening time and time again to me in the 80s, hearing, kiss on the right, hearing sign of the times, the first single from that album, just like, oh my god, he's done it again. He's reinvented himself again and not being able to wait to be able to tape it off the chart rundown or to be able to go and buy the seven inch single or the album, you know. And you know, without wishing to sound like a thousand years old, I think that's something that obviously kids don't have that anymore, do they? No, I think she's someone that always, there was always a very strong relationship between the lyrics and the subject matter and the music. That was very important to her. So running up that hill has that kind of lullaping, almost like jogging, but debump, but debump, but debump, it has that kind of energy to the rhythm, which fits perfectly with the sentiment of the lyrics. And she always, I think she always was very, that was always very important to her. But you know, it's obviously a very important record to her too, because when she played live back, wow, 10 years ago now, whatever it was, when she did those shows in London, basically most of the set was drawn from Hounds of Love and Aerial, you know, 80% of the set, which I remember being slightly disappointed with at the time, because I would love to have heard something off the dreaming. I would love to have heard something off Lionheart or Never Forever, but no, it was, and she obviously thinks of that record as a as a creative high point and rightfully so, as a creative and
Speaker 3commercial high point is that point where everything merges. Everything comes together.
Speaker 2Yeah, we've talked about that with certain artists before, haven't we? That they're on the way from one thing to another and they just catch that perfect moment with an album where everything is in balance, everything falls into place, the quirkiness, the pop sensibility, the fascination with technology, and the time as well, obviously, you know, there's something that's kind of out of the control of the artist, which is the sign of the time, you know, just against the referred to prints. And the album just came at exactly the right time. It came in the year of Live Aid. Yeah, yeah. It came in the year of Live Aid and it was almost the antidotes to Live Aid in a way. In that Live Aid seemed very worthy and not about the music and then Kate comes out with this record that seemed like it was only about the art, it was only about the creativity. And yet, as you say, it also had massive hits on it, almost despite itself. And it's the same, it's very much true of this record too, I think, that almost all our pop in the modern era in some ways refers back to tears for fears. Well, all of their records really, but particularly this record because it was so massive. Yeah. And it's interesting to me that if you look at the artists that weren't Live Aid, they're the ones we're confusing about the most. Yeah. I don't even notice that. So Kate Bush wasn't at Live Aid. Tears for fears were not at Live Aid. Van Morrison was not at Live Aid. And I'm not even sure, actually, I think simple minds were at Live Aid, weren't they? Were they? I don't know, maybe they were. You two definitely were. You two were, yes.
Speaker 3I mean, Robert Plan was obviously with Led Zeppelin.
Speaker 2But there's an album that we don't write. So there are the albums that we, and I'm not suggesting there's any connection between these two things at all with the way. But I'm just saying that interesting, interesting side note that a lot of these artists that made these incredible records, I think it was to the test of time were not part of that kind of Live Aid bubble. Tears for fears souls on a big chair. This is one of those albums where almost every song on it was like a massive, massive hit single to the point that probably there was a struggle to follow up. And I know there was a struggle. You know, they took three years, which at the time was almost unheard of to make a follow up. You talk about a sensual world. I mean, that was four years after Hounds of Life, wasn't it? Tears of fears similarly spent three to four years trying to find a follow up.
Speaker 3I think they both come out 89 or with all of that. They did. Yeah. Sent to worth either love.
Speaker 2They did, yes. Yeah. So they both spent four years trying to follow up these career-defining records and zeitgeist defining records. Here's a band that [BLANK_AUDIO] in another universe could have easily been an experimental progressive rock group. Yeah and yet they're coming up in the era of post-punk they're coming up in the era of new romantic music they're they're coming up in the era of electronic pop music and their first album The Hurting is very much an electronic pop record this has got a bit of everything going on with it's got aspirations to fill stadiums it's got a love of technology it's also got a love of just writing beautifully crafted pop songs everybody wants to rule the world of course it's such a irresistible classic timeless piece of pop but then so is shout but in a completely different way it's almost like this is this can this be the same band you know I remember hearing shout and having a similar kind of epiphany as I did with running up the hill firstly it's six minutes it wasn't edited for the single it was allowed to run it's I think more than six minutes it's got an almost semi-industrial approach rhythmically to the rhythmically to the drum pan and yet at the same time it's rock it's
Speaker 3rock music well for me shout the immediate precedent weirdly it's a very short track I mean again I think this is an incredibly innovative piece of pop music economical production economical lyrically and yet staggeringly original and important we will rock you in some ways I think shout reminds me of that okay
Speaker 2interesting it's this
Speaker 3kind of pummeling rhythm and in effect one very simple hook line right the grips you very very quickly but I mean
Speaker 2compared to we will rock you so it's a very yes we will rock you with two minutes it's a well also it's a it's a very economically this is a very produced very low there's a lot of overdubbing in this I know because I've remixed it there's a lot of layers in this music but a lot of them are what you might call sound design moments as opposed to a rhythm guitar part that's going through the whole track or a keyboard pad that's going through the whole track there are things that pop up in the arrangement that kind of keep you keep you interested which was a very Trevor Horn thing yeah and I think there's a sense that a lot of music made in the mid to late 80s was informed by what Trevor this kind of template that Trevor Horn had lain down laid down for making sophisticated pop records which were as much about these little sound design moments that kind of keep your attention yeah so just when you feel like the song might be beginning to become a little bit repetitive yeah I'll get that I know I know what they're doing now something else comes in an element comes in in the arrangement that's fresh that's new and here's the fears are all about there they're full of this and a lot of their tracks six seven obviously by the time we get to the following I'm seeds of love eight minutes long and there's a lot of stuff always being introduced into the arrangement to keep your attention which is a very prog rock thing to do and I think they brought
Speaker 3in a prog rock sensibility to pop you know this yes pop well in effect an obviously Chris Hughes who co-produced the album yeah is a huge fan of of progressive music and then they've come out of Adam
Speaker 2and the ends yeah well them and Kate Bush which is why which is why I think of these two records very much as as they are people they are artists that kind of brought this progressive or conceptual rock sensibility
Speaker 3into what they did works is for me they come from that background of progressive music but they're determined to make progressive music in the here and now yeah they're not determined to recreate you know in some ways what they're doing is they're echoing the innovations of the past but entirely in a contemporary language and what's kind of peculiar about both those albums is that at the time they were massive and at the time they had very general appeal but there wasn't particularly a great deal that came out after them that mimicked them I mean maybe in a way they were quite difficult they were quite complex I think that's it
Speaker 2I think you know I remember having a chat with Gary Kemp and Gary said are we talking about his first because I think he'd interviewed them on with Guy on the Rock concert show and I said how I heard your interview with Roland and I think he's interviewed Kurt as well on the show and he said to me I'm paraphrasing slightly be said something to me yeah when tears were fears were around in the mid 80s all of us and I think he was referring to like hit them and deranged around we all knew they were way ahead of us and and I think I understand that doesn't mean they made better musical better records but I think in terms of their sophistication and their approach to music they they were on another level as was Kate as was Kate's so but obviously they're from that same generate Kate obviously came from the previous generation they came from the same generation as DeRan DeRan as Spandar Ballet as orchestral moves in the dark as Ultravox and yet all those bands secretly we're looking at them and
Speaker 3saying oh my god
Speaker 2I
Speaker 3remember when you know man played the Hammer Hearthstone Battle of the Bands in 1989 that fateful gig worked which we won but what was interesting is even though it's the tail end of the decade quite a number of the bands were still under the spell of you two simple minds and I kind of wonder if it is because it was easy for four kids to do to approximate that sound whereas to make hounds of love to or songs and big chair to was out of people's budget but also out of their imagination and skill set well
Speaker 2they're very studio led records the very production orientated records so yeah I mean there wouldn't be much fun for kids getting into a rehearsal studio and trying to sound like running up their heel you know oh the drummer you just go dim dim dim dim dim dim dim dim dim well you know obviously getting together and forming a band is all about backing a big rock sound isn't it so yes you're right I think it was a very studio bound sound and it was out you know ironically these days those kind of sounds are easily within the reach of anyone with a laptop you know and logic on there on and garage band on their laptop but those days it meant going to a big studio with a fair light computer which famously cost the same price as a house at the time yes
Speaker 3but I think as well I think you know going back to what Gary Kemp said I think probably the music that Kate Bush and tears affairs were making was the music that they really wanted to make because it was a distillation of influences you know combining with the technology of the day you know and you listen to songs in the big chair it takes the odd risk you know I believe which is the tribute to Robert Wyham hardly you know the name really on the lips of most pop pickers of 1985 they were not showing away from what they loved I think the B side of that is their conversion of CS because I think Robert Wyham said that he was really grateful that they'd name checked him but it would be better if they covered it if you get some special royalties yeah no it's
Speaker 2a fantastic record of course less we forget ends with this seven-minute tone almost instrumental tone poem called listen which is a you know again a fantastic studio concoction playing with the possibilities of the studio and I think that's what we love about this era isn't it let's talk about another record that I know is very very important to both of us pre-fab-sprout yeah Steve McQuite still one of the worst band names of all time sorry you know but but one of the greatest bands of the whole era pre-fab-sprout Steve McQuite now interesting enough we love Steve we love pre-fab-sprout don't we and this is probably their masterpiece but again a bit like with the k-bush it's not necessarily my favorite album of theirs but it is but it is the one I'd hold up and say that's that's the master piece how do you describe pre-fab-sprout they're kind of out of time aren't they at the same time they're in they're produced by Thomas Dolby yeah let's just say this was a more successful Thomas Dolby production job and dog eat dog by Johnny Mitchell I think he enjoyed it more enjoyed it more a more successful collaboration with Thomas Dolby producer they're kind of out of time as well as being completely of the time aren't they with a record like this there's something very old-fashioned isn't there obviously famously Paddy McAlloon the principal son right to always used to say that Baccaracan David yeah we're a bigger influence on him than Lenin and McCartney were and you can absolutely hear that can't you there's a certain complexity also always in the sort of chord to harmonic movement which almost screams old school yeah
Speaker 3I think you can hear Jimmy Webb in there Jimmy Webb yes yeah and I would say as well you know I saw them live twice in 85 once on this tour and once on the Protossongs tour because Protossongs was originally going to be released in 85 pretty much after Stephen Queen but it was delayed by a few years think 89 it eventually came out and the one thing I remember thinking is that you're right they were entirely out of time in that I was reminded of Tennessee and wings there was a kind of lush yellow complex ELO for sure yeah you know ELO Tennessee wings it was music that at that point was strictly verboten really unfashionable yet because I suppose he could quote Gershwin and early a songbook writers they sort of got away with it this was rarely mentioned in the
Speaker 2press also the lyrics are quite cany quite clever and quite tongue-in-cheek aren't they I think yeah I think sometimes that would have endeared him to the press more than say Jeff blitz Jeff Lynn singing about Mr Blue Sky sure but Tennessee see what quite tongue-in-cheek and that would have and that would have given the more in common with Tennessee that's an archeness but I think the difference is that Tennessee managed to have big hits worse pre-frap Sprout always struggled I think a little bit to have the hits I think when love breaks down from this record was released about 73 times before it actually became even then it wasn't a big hit it was a middling hit but I think they
Speaker 3thought that was going to be again in Tennessee C terms there I'm not in love this is going to be the big mid 80s ballad and in some ways it should have been the big mid 80s ballad it is for me it's a glorious piece of work and a bit like before Jols just the way you are and hence he sees I'm not in love, just the way you are in Florence by my love. There is that choral, rising sound. So I've no doubt that Dolby, if not Macaloon, had I'm not in love in the back of their minds when I put it together.
Speaker 2It's a right a new anthem, yeah, love anthem, yeah. But some of my favourite songs in the row, Bonnie, move in the river. Just melodically, he's so good, isn't he? Yeah. These are not, I think that's where the sort of background and David thing and the Gershwin thing as you say comes in. They're not obvious, they're not stock melodies, but they are just as instant and just as appealing and just as catchy. And there's a sophistication to the arrangements. It's a perfect storm, isn't it on this record with Dolby as well, isn't it? Yeah. Because he's taken all those kind of angular edges they had on their debut record, give them a kind of a slick pop production, but without blending
Speaker 3anything out, about what they do. It's sort of captured what's interesting about them, as you say, while bringing them into an entirely different sonic universe. I like the first album, I like it. I love it songs. But you know, produce songs in a sense, although it's sonically close to the first album, compositionally it's closer to Steve McQueen, I think, because the edges and his voice have gone. I mean, this is the thing that, you know, Macaloon from this album onwards has the Macaloon Crune, you know, it's that beautifully soft voice, whereas on Swoon, it's still quite edgy, still quite rough on occasion. And this is, as you say, you know, I think it's almost like Dolby has kind of managed to package them beautifully. It's a bit like, as the photos of the album were in a sense, they're airbrushed, but to the point where they still look like themselves, but it fits in with the kind of wider pop world.
Speaker 2It's got a cinematic sort of element to it. It's no longer street. Swoon sounds like it came from the street. This sounds like it comes from Hollywood almost. Even the title Steve McQueen.
Speaker 3And that, I think, becomes ever more so, you know, the next few albums, this kind of definitely, almost Disney Hollywood-string element. There's a kind of love.
Speaker 2I love that too. Yeah. I mean, from Langley Park to Memphis, the next album is so slick and so cheesy in a way. You just have to go with it. And I love it. I love it. This, this is, again, you know, we talk about albums that catch people in transition. This album is kind of between the edgy more post-punk aspects of the first album and the incredible lush, as you say, disney-fied sound of the band on the subsequent records. And it's got some of his best songs on it. I think I'm right in saying, I think I read that Thomas Dolby kind of just picked the songs from a big pool that Paddy McLean presented to him and said, you know, these are the songs we're going to record. Well, this is, I think that some
Speaker 3of the songs have been written in the late, you know, mid to late 70s. So he'd been around for a while as a songwriter. And he had cassette upon cassette of track. And so he gave them to Dolby who didn't know when they were written, why they were written. And he put it together. So I think Dolby had, you know, a significant input on this album, although obviously, you know, this songwriting talent is, is McLean's. The lyrics have got great jokes. So in that joke in "Move in the River," here you've
Speaker 2got, what is it? Here you've got a new girlfriend, how's the wife taking it? You know, almost like puns in the lyrics. And I think that's probably what indeed him a lot more to the music press than perhaps, you know, ELO would have never indeed themselves to the music pressing a way that he did. So there we go. So three, I mean, three albums we absolutely love on the track there. Hounds of Love, songs on a big chair, Steve McQueen, can the year possibly get any better? This is the year of Live Aid, remember, the year that we originally started off by saying we ate it. We felt that this was the end of everything. And, you know, we're, we're eulogizing about these records. Also in the category of art pop, let's just write it off a few here, ABC's third album, "How to Be a Zillionaire," Thompson Twins, "Here's to Future Days." People forget that Thompson Twins were one of the biggest bands of the era. But this was the beginning of their decline. This wasn't a hit after a massive, massive hit with the previous record.
Speaker 3And they started off again as a much more kind of, well, a very big band, but a much more edgy post punk rhythmic. Yeah, they're all
Speaker 2living in a commune together. Yeah, yes. A couple of records, which I think maybe we should dwell on a little bit, because they're interesting in the sense that we were talking about the aspirations of bands that had previously been quite experimental and edgy to become more mainstream. And how I felt, you less so, I felt simple minds completely nailed it. Yeah. Did bands like the associates and shriekback nail it as well? I would say no. I'm a big fan of early shriekback post punk care album. It's one of my favourite albums of the early 80s. Yeah. I think, I listened to the record this morning, "Oil and Gold." I think a lot of what's special of them has gone in an attempt to sound radio-friendly. And I think the same is true of the associates.
Speaker 3I think with shriek back, it'd become slightly more anonymous and produced in the way that Twins have. Yes. And I, like you, I really like the early shriekback. And I think they're also making some great music now. They've absolutely reclaimed that kind of art, funk, pop, territory. There was good as they ever were. But this I was less keen on at the time. I'm less keen on now. Associates, perhaps I've got more time for. It's got breakfast, which is an amazing thing.
Speaker 2And also, it's never going to be anonymous with his voice, is it? Exactly. That's true.
Speaker 3And there are a couple of pieces. I'd say that for me it's kind of 50% successful and 50% the beginning of losing their way. So there are tracks on this that make for the most logical follow-up from Sulk, which I think was a masterpiece. So there's a few great, great pieces. And a few, he's been kind of tentatively led by producers and record company A&R.
Speaker 2And I think that's for me where I feel the mid-80s is that watershed moment because you do begin to have a few bands that feel like they're having a crisis of confidence, a crisis of direction. What should I be doing? Should I be making this big shiny pop music? Yeah. And live aid seems like a sort of lightning rod for all of that stuff to me. And perhaps I'm fairly looking at that, but it seems to me symbolic. No, I think what I think
Speaker 3Joni Mitchell had a crisis of confidence. Yeah. I remember hearing demos that she was doing around the time of Dog Eat Dog. And actually, she's still knocking out, timelessly beautiful piano voice ballads. And I think that, you know, Mackenzie, probably losing Rankin was a big thing because Rankin was a major part of the associates. They were very much a duo, creative unit. And he's kind of getting 50% of the calls right, 50% of them wrong. And I think the album after this is where he gets most of the calls wrong, really. I think there's wild and lonely as it works. Yes. There's the odd good piece, but it really, really feels again slightly out of compromise, compromise, the banal musically, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. The voice is always going to, it's always extremely worth listening to. Yeah. And again, he pulls
Speaker 3himself together, you know, some of his later works, some of the demos he did before he committed suicide, great. You know, I think Simon Raymond from the cocktail twins pulled together some of the demos and produced a really strong album that had that been released in '85. We'll be talking about it as a classic.
Speaker 2So let's just quickly list some of the other art pop records that were released this year. The Dream Academy's debut album. Great single. I thought
Speaker 3life in Northern Texas won.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. Interesting band. Yeah. Arcadia so read The Rose, which was a Duran, no album from Duran Duran this year, but the Duran Duran side project. Yeah. How a Jones dream into action. Micro Disney's the clock comes down the stair. But another album we do need to dwell on because I think this is again one of the most important records of the whole era, Scriti Pilates, Cupid and Psych. Well, to give it its full title, Cupid and Psych 85. Yeah. Just in case you have any doubt what era it was made in, this is a fascinating in the sense that this is a band that have transitioned from being, you know, we talked about how the Thompson Twins had come from that sort of almost commune culture, making very right on politically correct DIY music. And Scriti Pilates, a couple of years early, that's exactly what they're doing. Suddenly they come out with the Glossiest. Yeah. I mean, we talked about the Pre-Fab Sprout album from Langley Park to Memphis having that big glossy Disney production. It's here too, isn't it, in spades on Cupid and Psych 85. It's a very, I think it was all recorded in America. It has a very American sensibility. The drum sounds are very sampled, very clipped, very precise. It's a very clean production. These very, very chinsy, almost chinsy, bright keyboard sounds. But his voice, that fairness that he, I mean, he's patty mackling to the power of 10, isn't he? When it goes to the kind of fairness in the voice.
Speaker 3Well, they're almost lacking in him. I mean, I love almost lacking voices, but there's lacking humanity. Yes. I mean, this is kind of a, in some ways, artificial intelligence voices or a prelude to the era of auto-tune, because they're so perfect. But at the time, it was so extraordinary to hear that. It still sounds extraordinary to me. And it's not only him. Obviously, he's honed his songwriting, honed his voice, has this immaculate production. But the other people, I think a couple of them, come from the material and, you know,
Speaker 2experiment for Ed Gamson, is that the guy that was in material?
Speaker 3Yeah. Because there's at least some players there, I think, from material Bill, as well, and what have you. That era that, again, they come from an avant-garde American background. And I think that when Green was younger, I think he said that he was very much into the kind of communal, creative living. He used to follow Henry Cow around. - Yeah. - So he knew these sort of things. And when you listen to early Scryggy Policy, who are fascinating with the early singles, very disjointed. Again, it kind of fits in with the post punk sensibility rather than Henry Cow's rock in opposition. But by God is it strange, but it's very unorthodox chord and rhythms.
Speaker 2Yeah. - But that's interesting because, I mean, this album, which, you know, I mean, it makes thriller sound like white, light, white heat. - Yes. - But you mentioned the word strange. It's almost so perfect. It's got an otherness to it. A strangeness to it by virtue of this perfection of this almost pristine, clean, glitzy production. It goes beyond what's just, 'cause it could have fallen flat on his face and ended up just sounding very bland. But it goes so far in that direction, it becomes strange. -
Speaker 3Well, almost an art form in itself. -
Speaker 2Yes. - It's like an art project. -
Speaker 3Well, I think he'd said that he had gone home. I think, you know, I'm probably getting this completely wrong in some way. But the early singles, they're extraordinarily jagged. His voice is still kind of interesting and smooth and not very post punk, the bandar, but he sounds nothing like 79 or 81. And then obviously they did the first album, 'Songs to Remember on Rough Trade', wasn't it? Which features Robert Wyatt, I think, on one of the pieces. And there are a couple of tracks that do hint at this. He's using respects of reggae, aspects of funk, and his voices become even more-- - Sweetest girl. - Yeah, sweetest girl. It's become even more round in the smooth. But it still doesn't anticipate this. But I hear that in between this, that he'd had some form of breakdown, gone back to his parents and had been immersing himself in the biggest records of the era, namely the Michael Jackson. -
Speaker 2It's one of the most luxuriant sounding records of the whole era. - Yeah. - And I think what's bizarre about it is when you know where it came from. - Yes. - Where they were doing two or three years before that. You would never have predicted it. It's almost like the ABC thing. You know, ABC obviously went from being an industrial band to making the Lexicon of Love album in the space of Fuse. It's a similar transition, even more pronounced, I think, in the sense. - Yeah, yeah. - That this is one of the most clean, luxuriant, highly polished productions of the entire era. And unless we forget we can draw a line back to Miles here because Miles was so taken with this record that he ended up covering a song from the record from this album, on the next album he made, 2-2. And similarly, Miles ended up returning the favor by performing trumpet on "Squitties Following" record, a patty, wasn't it? - A patty, which is essentially a kind of, it's a rerun of this record. I think there's something about this record. There's nowhere to go. There's nowhere to go after you've made "Cupid" and say, it's so perfect. And I think they always suffered a little bit from it. -
Speaker 3I'm not think some of this later stuff's been very good. - But he's only made like three records in the,
Speaker 2in the ensuing 40 years or something, hasn't he? -
Speaker 3But he's kind of reverted to a slightly more experimental approach in his later albums. Yeah, no, it's really interesting, as you say. It's more interesting because of where it came from. And again, like "Prefab Sprout" with the airbrush photos, they really looked the pop part in 1985 as well. -
Speaker 2They did, yeah. - So let's talk about the "Grace Jones Flavor" to the rhythm album as well. Because of course the story behind this album is they spent so much time trying to come up with the perfect pop single. And Trevor spent months and months and months trying to fashion this perfect pop single. They'd spent so much money that they had to cobble together an album from all of the rejects, just to try and get some of the budget back, they'd spent on making this one. And it is, I mean, it's one of those examples where somebody set us out to do something and they do it. It's one of the greatest, most exquisite, most perfectly produced pop singles of all time, slave to the rhythm. And essentially it started out as a go-go track. And it became this massive, massive, massive iconic track from the 80s, again, not a massive hit at the time. But I think one that has stood the test of time and people still remember to this start. - I always used to test
Speaker 3out my speakers with. - It's sonically to the rhythm. -
Speaker 2Sonically, it's stunning. And of course, it was something which really redefined Grace Jones as well. She'd made those island records. Very quirky island records. -
Speaker 3Well, I love those island records. And this wants more, when you were swept away. And I think this is the whole thing that they're enormous records. This and the propaganda to make sense. And this may be even more so, especially the single slave to the rhythm. It's massive, and it's quite uncompromising. You know, again, there's that beautiful little jazzy guitar solo. These really quite massive orchestral arrangement but rarefied chords within it. - Yes, nothing about it is obvious for what is in effect and attempts at the perfect pop hit. But then nothing was obvious about Jimmy Webb's hits of the '60s. -
Speaker 2And you know, like we talked about tears for fears and how that attention to detail. A new hook coming in every twist and turn. A new hook, a new little melody, a new keyboard sound. Something to keep you engaged all the way through. -
Speaker 3And the confidence is what to bring it down. 'Cause it isn't the one moment where it actually just brings down completely and there's that little bell sound. - Oh yes, yeah. Again, it's like this. It has absolute confidence and scope. -
Speaker 2Yeah. - I think slave to the rhythm is where they went for it. They went for it. Let's make the ultimate flash bulb moment. The people are gonna remember our sound. Remember this approach to making records. -
Speaker 3And it almost becomes an ending itself again. These two albums, which I think were really cutting edge in the same way as say tears for fears and Kate Bush. Nothing really came along in their wake. 'Cause they were almost like the end. - I don't think people could
Speaker 2afford to make records like that. I mean, I think that's the whole point, isn't it? I mean, there's a hundred piece of orchestra on this record. There's a bunch of session LA guys. There's a go-go band on it. There's months in the studio refining, fine tuning. Who could afford to make records like that, except somebody that was coming off the back of relax, two tribes, do you know what I mean? So I think, you know, but we've talked about this before, how sometimes success gives people the confidence to go mad and sometimes that can pay off and sometimes it can mean them falling flat on their face. Here's an example of where it really paid off. One of the greatest pop singles of the '80s. -
Speaker 3I don't think of the album worth, although the album, I love it. - I love it. It feels to a certain extent, you know, like extended 12 intervals. - It's like a re-mix album. - Yeah. It does feel like a re-mix album. But it does kind of work because there's enough variation in those mixes. But, you know, again, and it tells you how many ideas went into the basic single that you could extract it and make an album like investigation into what in effect, which is meant to be the perfect four minute track. -
Speaker 2Yeah. - So a couple of other entries in the art pop listing, one, again, very, very successful record, a haze hunting high and low, the debut, a ha record. You know, brilliant. I mean, you know, it's a cliche to say it almost, but it is very Scandinavian. This approach to pop, isn't it? There's something about the, it's got the abba sensibility to pop, hasn't it? Just beautiful melodies, homing in, honing in on the hook, all at every corner, very lean sounding. And interestingly, produced largely by a British producer, Tony Mansfield, who'd had a band called New Music. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - Who you may remember, living by numbers, who'd also produced Captain Sensible's happy talk, and ended up producing this album for our heart, which, you know, a heart have become a phenomenal, phenomenon. In a sense, they're almost a band that have always, even then, they were outsiders. I mean, take on me arguably the most famous electronic pop song in history. I think it's the most streamed electronic pop song. - And it gives the lives as well as it,
Speaker 3I think patch up boys in a heart, give the lives decided that Electro Pop was very much 1980s to '83, because actually, you know, think of West End girls, think of, take on me, some of the biggest and best Electro Pop singles were happening. - Well, also the '80s join the time of the Smiths and guitar rock. -
Speaker 2Also, they give the lives of the fact that Electro Pop was very arch and very distant and very cold, you know? - Yeah. - Because a heart incredibly warm, very affable. They had that very affable kind of image. The irony being, of course, they were from the St. Cold, Northern continent. But they always seem very affable. Very, I mean, they're early single. The sun always shines on TV, you know? There was a very sort of optimistic aspect to their sound and lyrically. And patch up boys had that too, didn't they? -
Speaker 3They did. - And there was a depth, I think. I mean, from what I can gather with a heart, they started off being much more of a kind of a door style. - Oh, really? I didn't know that. - Yeah, influenced by that. Whereas, obviously, I think with Neil Tennant, there was a real singer songwriter sensibility and a depth that invaded their particular brand of synth pop. And Morton Harker, amazing voice. And in some ways, he's like the Freddie Mercury of electro pop, isn't he? -
Speaker 2Amazing jawbone as well. - Amazing jawbone. - I mean, they're very, very pretty. He's very, very pretty. - Yeah. - Never doesn't he harm, does it? Never doesn't he harm? - It doesn't. - One final thing to mention in this category, we talk about art pop. This artist may much like some of the other things we've mentioned come to define the term, Jane Sibri, the Canadian singer. Her third album, The Speckless Sky this year. This is someone I struggle to categorize her in a way. The obvious kind of lazy way to categorize her. So she's kind of the Canadian K-Bush. But actually, I don't think she says anything like K-Bush. For me, it's like halfway between Cindy Loper and Laurie Anderson. - Yeah. - And I don't know what kind of image that creates in people's minds sound wise. But I think when you listen to it, you might. I understand what I mean by that. -
Speaker 3Yeah, no, I do. And I think there's maybe something of Ricculee Jones that her most obtuse in there as well. - Yeah, I agree, and this is a good idea. I think the point is that for both of us, maybe the walking is gonna be the definitive. - Well, bound by the beauty of it, yeah. - Yeah, they're coming up, but this is, again, it's really odd, quirky, rhythmically unpredictable, and using the technology of the day in a very creative way. And she comes from a more straight singer-songwriter, background, if you hear her debut, and you hear her very early demos, but she really, like Kate Bush, takes to the '80s with great enthusiasm, great invention. - I don't think many people listening
Speaker 2probably would know her. She's had a little bit of profile in the UK,
Speaker 3but Katie Langs covered songs by her. She was on the Crow Sound track, I think. -
Speaker 2But generally, her success has been in her native Canada. -
Speaker 3Yeah, I think she had at least one big hit there with Mimi on the beat, which was quite Laurie Anderson. -
Speaker 2So our Canadian listeners probably know her very well. Well, I suspect that British American listeners are probably less so. She's definitely a fascinating artist. She definitely would fit into that same, as you say, Rikili Jones, Laurie Anderson, but then there's also a much slicker radio aspect to her song sometimes too, which is where the Cindy Lauper thing comes in for me. -
Speaker 3But it's a Cindy Lauper who's heard Meredith Monk, if you know what I mean. - Yes. - You get the impression. -
Speaker 2The Cindy Lauper who's heard Laurie Anderson, yeah, yeah. She's definitely, or she's very interested in the theatrical elements of music too, isn't it? Almost like the little short story of some of the songs, aren't they? Like you mentioned Mimi on the beach, which is almost like a little short story in its own right. And the walking has those sort of extended, it's been a while since I heard you. I seem to remember it's some of the tracks of 7, 8, 9 minutes long. And they have various scenes to them. So there's a sense of storytelling going on in the music too. So the spectral sky, which came out this year was her third album. I think as you said to him with the greatest, her greatest work, or our favorite work of hers was to come. But this is a good record. Let's move on. We've covered the, I knew the art pop section was going to be the biggest one. -
Speaker 3Two days long. -
Speaker 2Two days long. Probably two or three episodes in there alone. We could have done a whole episode on "Howns of Love". We could have done a whole episode on "Cupid and Psychic". Anyway, let's draw a veil move on. To us category that in many ways has strong connections to the art pop category. Because I was contemplating, should a particular artist go in this category? Let's go to post punk more thing is the phrase that you suggested for this category. But of course we've talked already about a lot of post punk bands that have morphed. - Yeah, yeah. - But I suppose these are the examples of bands that seem to still have a strong connection to post punk in their music and their sound. The quintessential example here being new order. - Yeah. - Low life. They still sound very much like a band from Manchester, post punk band from Manchester, whilst embracing the possibilities of technology whilst embracing dance culture. And I think that's what we love about new order, isn't it? They always, in the way, they always sound. It's still like that bunch of kids in a rehearsal room in Manchester. - Yeah. - And they never became that kind of slick, well, actually maybe later on, they did suffer a little bit from it, but certainly right through the '80s, they still retained everything about them that we loved about Joy Division, that we loved about new order, that we loved about Blue Monday. Whilst embracing all of these more mainstream, form strands of pop music,
Speaker 3would you think that's fair comment? - Yeah, I think it is. I think they're still very much the same band that we're a part of making closer, for example. - Yes, yeah. - And yet they're still curious about what's been happening in the clubs of Detroit or Chicago, or what have you. And I think that part of that is in Barney's voice, isn't it? -
Speaker 2It's in the voice. It's also in the way their music is packaged, obviously, the label, factory records, the Peter Savall covers, the iconography around the image. - It's all kind of helps. -
Speaker 3And eventually I think, especially when you've got something like substance, which pulls together the single things we've said is arguably their greatest album in a way, 'cause it's such a. - Yeah,
Speaker 2one of the greatest albums of a movie, I think. -
Speaker 3Yeah, dealous collection. That there's something of the pet shop boys in that, they're reinventing the Electro Pop Templar, but in a really human way, you know, this is not, you know, if you think of the Electro Pop of the late '70s, early '80s, you have these very clipped, very affected voices. And it's the thing that tenant doesn't have, it's the thing that Barney somehow doesn't have. You know, they're very natural voices, and it humanizes the music. -
Speaker 2It's the antithesis of the sound of session musicians making a record, isn't it? - Yeah, it sounds like a band of kids that have grown up together, that have got together in a rehearsal studio, and yet they are making these quite slick, quite production-heavy dance records, and they're gonna make more of them to come, but it still sounds like a band from Manchester, scientific factory records, and I love that about New Order, you know, and is that also true of the cure, because the head on the door they're out on this year, now I've always thought of this out, I listened to it yesterday in preparation for this. I've always thought of the head on the door kind of as a transitional record, because I love Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me in the following record, which to me sounds like one of their grand statements. And even some of the songs on this record seem like dry runs for some of the singles from Kiss Me. Like, what's the "The Opening Trip"? In between days, sounds like a dry run from just like heaven to example. And the cure, obviously, a band that have, in a very short time, come a long way, and yet still sound like the cure. This couldn't be more different to faith pornography, 17 seconds, which I know we love those records. It's quite a hat for the cure, it's a happy record.
Speaker 3I guess you can hear bits though on the top, can't you, just before this? - You can, and the single "Love Cats" and so on. - And this, I suppose, I've always thought I had in the door, I like it rather than love it, you know? - Me too. - Actually, I really like the top, because it's unpredictable. Absolutely a door, as we said before, that run of albums from 17 seconds to pornography, fantastic. And I think Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, is this album torn at the seams. - I agree. - Because it goes even more pop, even more experimental, and then they even have these pieces that could be Latter-day Cash Meers, eight-minute crushing goth rock pieces. -
Speaker 2Yeah, this feels like a prototype for Kiss Me, doesn't it? - Yeah. - I mean, but there is some extraordinary stylistic pieces. - That's pretty good, stylistic sort of surprise on there. Like the track "The Blood", which is like Spanish flamenco music. Who'd have thought, you know, when you listened to pornography three years earlier or two years earlier, that the cure would be going flamenco. I mean, it's just saying it out loud sounds ridiculous. So I think we agree on this. It's a good record, the cure never made a bad record. It's a transitional record. It's probably the least significant of the records they made in the first decade of their career, but it's still a good record. - Yeah, yeah. - It's still very strong. - A record that I do like very much is "Dift Jazz Extractions", one of the more obscure bands on 4AD at the time. Now, they only made the one record in a couple of EPs at the time. And in many ways, they predate post-rock, don't they? What kind of what they're doing is they're drawing on, perhaps what Juritti Column were doing with the sort of echoing guitars, the music is all instrumental, the echoing guitars and almost prog rock sensibility. In 1985, this was quite an unusual record. And I suspect it sold two copies to us. - I've got my copy. Yeah, there you go. - "Dift Jazz Extractions", there it is folks. - Is it produced by Robin Guthrie? You might be right, yeah. So it's kind of got a bit of the Cocktoes DNA. You're right, yeah. Bit of the Cocktoes DNA underneath. That's the collection of the two EPs there as well, which is also fantastic. But that's the album that came out this year, Extractions. Yes, it's got the Cocktoes DNA. It's very much a 4AD album, isn't it? - Yeah. - But a 4AD album stripped of vocals and of songs. And like I say, with a kind of predating a post-rock sensibility, isn't it? -
Speaker 3Yeah, I love it. I mean, it's one of those albums that I like because, in the same way that I love the first "Jurity" album and "Vegin' Your Asties" from "Gardens" where you feel skilled, in that it's one of these albums that seems to have been made purely for the love of it. It's a small album. I remember there's a band called "Pacific" who came up with a couple of years. And these albums were never going to change the world as a whole, but they were just beautiful, immersive experiences that were quite unique in themselves. - Just out of time, almost. - Yeah. - They existed
Speaker 2in their own little bubble of time. -
Speaker 3And I loved it for that. -
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I do, you know. - I do, I do too, yeah. So we can say that's a kind of quintessential album, me as album two. - In a way, yeah, if just nobody bought it at the time. - It's almost, but it's almost like one of those records you could play to anyone and they would find it very hard to not like it. - Yeah. - A bit like that first "Jurity" album, the "Veginioracely" album, it has, I don't think it's quite in the same league as those records for me, but it has that same effect on people, I think, that it's very enjoyable. -
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah. - And it's very pretty, very accessible in the way that "Jurity" "Veginioracely" can be. - Yes. - And the cocktails, of course, you know. -
Speaker 2Well, we're going to talk about the cocktails later, 'cause cocktails didn't release now on this year, but they released three EPs, all of which are seminal for me. amongst their best work. Anyway, but before we do, talking has little criticism. Now, you are our talking heads expert. I've never heard this record. Where does it fall in there, in their trajectory and in their quality, in terms of quality of that? Well, they never made a bad record.
Speaker 3A bad record. It's probably along with truth stories, which follows this my least favourite, even though of course it has the huge hit road to nowhere. Oh, I know this story.
Speaker 2Of course, yeah.
Speaker 3It's quite straightforward. So in a sense, you know, the early albums are quite scratchy, quite experimental, quite funky. A lot of fellow cootty, a lot of sound design, you know, remaining light. And I really like speaking in tongues, wearing a sense. It's got all of the experimentalism and rhythmic complexity of remaining light, but it's got slightly more melody, pop sensibility, glossiness and they really pull it off. It's a great album. This one, there's none of the fun, none of the complexity. This is kind of them as close as they come to making a relatively straightforward indie guitar rock album. And it's such, it's never going to be my favourite because of that, but you know, it's got right to nowhere on it, which is brilliant. And I think True Story's kind of took this slightly further, even though it was a soundtrack album. I prefer True Story's variant on this. You know, it's good. It's good. And she was, there's another hit from this. Oh, I know this also, yeah. I know this also, yeah. I really, really like it, but it kind of felt, again, you know, we were talking earlier about the diastrates of El Collins House somehow. This was the band honed to commercial perfection at just the right time. It was that. That's this, I remember. You know, whereas I'm really like, they did the final album Naked 1988. They're back to their wayward selves again. They got Johnny Marron guitar and that's surprisingly, but this is when they're really experimenting with rhythms and tones and some, you know, pretty difficult concepts as well. So Naked, I love. So it's, you know, that's it. It's a really good album, but it's probably my least favourite. And it sounds like it's probably about as
Speaker 2mainstream as they ever.
Speaker 3It's as mainstream as I think David Burnett got.
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