#479: Sam McIngvale, Head of Product at OP Labs, on Moving Your Business Onchain, Optimism’s OP Stack, Why Fintechs are Coming to Optimism

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Krypton news podcast. We are buzzing as always, and today is going to be an absolutely electric factory of an episode. You guys, weather's elite in Toronto right now, I'm a happy guy, a fall. It might be the best season in Toronto, summer is way too hot, way too muggy, way too humid falls. Absolutely beautiful. I'm 24 degrees today, 23 degrees for my American friends and for our American guests like Sam. I don't even know what that is in Fahrenheit. I'm a nap when it comes to Fahrenheit. But it's beautiful. Time for the intro. Today we have the one and only Sam Maconville on the show today, head of product that OP labs a core development team supporting optimism's OP stack. Prior to joining OP labs, he co-founded Wallet Infrastructure Provider Turnkey and was head of product for Coinbase Custody. Wow. But Sam also studied Comp-Sci at Northwestern University, actually love the Northwestern gear as well. You guys got a good hockey team, you got a sick football team and I love the getch. So Sam, welcome to show my friend Pump to have you on how you doing this other morning. Thanks so much, Matt. Pump to be here. Also a beautiful day at Boulder, about 75 degrees Fahrenheit here, so shout out to the Fahrenheit system. It's quite nice. I love that. So I went to Northwestern. I mean, I shadowed my boy Luke and my good friends. He went to see Boulder played on the D3 puck team there. I mean, I unfortunately never went to go down to visit him just timing I worked, but that place looked so friggin cool. I mean, what a place. Why are you in Boulder right now and you went to Northwestern? Are you born and raised in Colorado? No. It was fortunate. My mom was a schoolteacher. So we used to spend a lot of summers in the mountains here in Colorado. We were living in San Francisco. It was working at Coinbase when COVID hit. We had some young kids. It became clear very early on that Coinbase was not going to come back in person. As we sort of dispersed during COVID. And so we we bolted it. We love San Francisco, but it was fun to get out of there when areas and kids and found our way here to the Rockies. We didn't know where we're going to end up in Colorado, but found a way to Boulder and love it. That's awesome. I love it. Okay. Let's jump into it here. Before we get into OP and again, OP is absolutely buzzing right now. I couldn't be wrong. I think you guys are applicable for like all for 50% of L2 volume on ETH. Again, I could be wrong there. We'll get into all the fun stats. But you guys are moving. I'm right there. You're a little low. You usually fluctuate between like 55% and 60%. Okay. Dependent exactly what you're measuring. But yeah, we're well over half of all L2 transaction fee revenue in particular on L1. Okay. Yeah. Wow. You guys are absolutely buzzing. Before we get into OP, walking through Coinbase custody. I first got to know Coinbase custody. Cheese. I want to say back in 2021 when I was working for Cypherbong Holdings, which is now sole strategies. First company in the world to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet. There was really only one option to use. It was Coinbase custody. Now there's a lot of institutional custodians. I'm sure you and I were probably on the email thread back in the day five years ago when that happened. We might have a contract. I would have been a counter signature for like the Coinbase custody contract back then. So yeah, for sure. So what would it journey? Walk me through all that. How much fun was that? And the growth? I mean, cheese Louise. It seems like every big company in the world, all these deaths, everyone's using Coinbase custody. Yeah, for sure. It's actually kind of a full circle moment for me. So I worked at an equity's clearing custodian prior to Coinbase custody and what that base, which means is like we were plumbing for people that were launching like brokerages, you know, where you're going to buy and trade stocks. One of our biggest customers was Robinhood. They launched at a place called Epic Clare and that's where I was working. And it was through Robinhood that I got enters to Coinbase and engineers had left and gone to Coinbase and Coinbase started thinking about a custody product. They introduced me to Brian and lo and behold, I got to land there and lead Coinbase custody. It was amazing. I went from trying to figure out how to make it, knowing that we had this like really inherent advantage with the Coinbase brand and balance sheet behind us to making it and to then like this epic snowball of assets, you know, just institutional assets really in particular flying into Coinbase custody as, you know, institutions really started to onboard into the asset class. It was incredibly fun to be there in early days, 2018, 2019, 2020 in particular. We acquired a company called Digelme in mid 2020, rebuilt that product on top of Coinbase custody. That is Coinbase Prime today. So got to be a part of all that as well. I'll come back to the full circle moment with Robinhood in a second, but I'll just keep the journey going for a second. It was a lot of the original Coinbase custody crew that got back together to found turnkey, post Coinbase. And so they're having fun as a success now doing that. But one of the things that I got to see very early on like with this this pre Coinbase custody story with Robinhood was as they sort of grew up on apex clearing, financial infrastructure. Eventually they got big enough and what they said was like, Hey, we need to own our own infrastructure. There's a lot more margin. We can make more money if we own this infrastructure ourselves rather than the outsource of the others. And this is the trend we now see at Optimism right now. We see all these large Fentax financial services companies starting to launch on-chain products. And from our perspective, it's just inevitable as soon as those on-chain products get enough scale, they're going to say, why am I paying margin to L1 validators? Why am I paying margin to someone else's sequencer? I can run my own chain myself. I can internalize that a little extra margin. And so we think all these folks are going to be running chains in the future. And so anyway, it's been a lot of financial infrastructure, all sort of like, I don't know, coming together in different ways. But yeah, that's maybe some quick tour through the story. Okay. That was great. But let's sit on that point for a sec. Would that not be, I guess, a competitor to OP? Like, you know what I mean? If Stripes launch on a chain and I mean, geez Louise, there's some, I have a hot bit of a hot take here, I think you might be in the same boat, but I feel like a lot of companies, like most of the Fortune 500 companies, 510 years down the road, will have their own chain in some capacity. I don't know if it's going to work. I also feel like just from a PR stunt, a lot of these guys will do it as well, probably failed. Maybe like, I love Facebook. Libra kind of thing. Obviously, Libra's been very successful. Successful, excuse me, turning into Sui. But what do you think about that? Like, does that not directly compete with OP? Because a lot of these guys could just build on your tech stack and have a very clean, fast, you know, seamless chain. Yeah. So when I say build on OP, I don't mean build on OP mainnet, our chain. I mean, build their own chain. Like Robinhood is launching Robinhood chain, like Coinbase launch space. So our expectation is that like you just said, every one of those top 500 financial companies is going to run their own blockchain. And our job or what we hope is that they all run those using the OP stack, which is our open source product to run your own blockchain. OP mainnet is for us a showcase of the OP stack. Our success, we are really about enabling others to run their own chains. That is sort of like our mission right now at Optimism. And so while we do run our own chain, one to like dog food, our technology and sort of prove out, you know, what this cool technology can do, really we're trying to enable others to launch and run and be successful with their own chains and whatever capacity that might be. But so really like if all those people are coming to run their own chains, we want to be the best product for them to run their own blockchain. That's our job for the next, you know, two to five years and how we're going to help us with those folks on chain in particular. I love that. What do the combos like with them? I've been fortunate enough to sit in on a couple of these. I'm going to talk some shit right now, some apologies and I'd say this to their faces. In fact, I have a lot of these, a lot of these big suits who are running big, big companies, they don't have, I mean, I could drop multiple different swear words here. They don't have a frigging clue what's going on. So when you get in a room with a bunch of these guys, when they get literally, when they're when they're saying, well, Sam, how does, how does OP, how does OP compete with Bitcoin? It's like, well, actually, it's, there's literally nothing like zero at all. One's a store of value. One literally gives you the gears and the oil and everything to run the, like it's completely different. But when you get questions like this, what are these combos sound like? How do you sort of get them to move and grow from like, yeah, I know nothing about this to then teaching them about it to then actually going to application and execution. Yeah. I don't know if I'll directly answer the question, but I can definitely share some thoughts. I agree that most, a lot of folks adopting or sort of moving parts of their businesses on chain today want to be led. They don't have all the answers and they don't want to have to go learn themselves. They're trying to move fast. They have some business need. They think that launching an on chain product is going to, you know, further their business in some way. And what they really need is they need professional and trusted guidance to help them in that on-chain journey. That is absolutely what we do at optimism. Our first, our view is like big Fortune 500 wants to get on chain. First thing I got to do is they got to launch some on chain product. They're not just going to launch their own blockchain right away. If we can help them launch one or two or three on-chain products, get to substantial scale, maybe a couple billion in TVL, ex many users, then suddenly the equation makes sense for them to run their own chain. And they can do that successfully because now they already have on-chain distribution. So our job is very much like how do we help you on your on-chain journey as trusted advisor consultant, also people that can run a lot of this infrastructure for you and move you from, you know, completely off-chain to a little bit on-chain, a little bit more on-chain and eventually running your own chain. One thing that totally resonates with them, especially most of financial services, I love this analogy, it took Robinhood like five to six years to drag most of like the online brokerage business to zero commissions. You know, when Robinhood had launched, Fidelity, E-Trade, Schwab, they were still charging eight, nine, ten dollars per stock trade. It's wild. Yeah. And then five years later, they all went to zero at exactly the same time. Robinhood literally like dragged this industry into the future. They're going to do the same thing again, bases already doing this. Folks don't realize it because they don't view claim bases quite as competitive, but Robinhood is out in front already watched products on chain. They will follow with their own chain. Everyone's going to get drugs on chain by the sort of like the force of will that is Robinhood. And so yeah, we're just super excited to try and help all those folks get on chain and be successful with it. Great analogy. Let's get into OP and optimism. Why you guys, again, this is more for the folks who aren't fully aware, there's so many competitors in this space, US are the biggest and the volume that we spoke about on the beginning to show the 55 to 60% of that of that volume being you guys, but why OP and why optimism? Yes. When enterprises, I think, do anything, but in particular like launch a new product, in particular one that might be on chain, there's a couple things that they very clearly care about. Safety and security, like their brand is paramount. They don't want to like lose their customers assets. They care about like customizing that environment to their needs. They definitely care about just like how to make this happen with enterprise controls. There's a ton of compliance regulation. We make all those things happen on top of the OP stack. We think of our product as like the best way to run a blockchain and the enterprise sort of controls and services on top of that to help those folks again, trust us to come on chain. That's really where we're differentiating. The biggest advantage we have though right now is that the largest fastest growing L2, which happens to be a Fortune 500, which happens to have a crazy high enterprise diligence bar is Coinbase, running base, and they run that on our stack. Base are incredible advocates for us. We partner closely with them in building all sorts of stuff for base, but then all that creates back to the OP stack. It's just wonderful to have that flagpole partner right now that everyone else can look at and know that like, hey, if this technology meets Coinbase's bar, it's going to be good enough for us. That helps us a lot with them as well. We can get into the L1 versus L2 stuff. My sense is most enterprises to your point that are just starting their on chain journey. They don't even know the difference between L1 and L2. They're just like, yo, I need to, there's a bunch of things that like on chain enables, like in launch products faster, I can get to more GOs, I can maybe capture more margin if I, if I want to run my own chain. Like the technical details of that are pretty irrelevant. Again, they're just like someone helped me, you know, accomplish these things that I need and don't make me go figure out, like, do I need to run my own validators or like, what do I do here? That's sort of like. Only crypto people care about this, you know, that's really, it's never come up in a conversation that we know. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no crypto folks care about this. And I think it was in my apologies, one of our recent guests at a great line. Crypto folks are investors more than they are users, right? Where they want to push this narrative, they want to push this meta in order to pump their bags the most. But like most crypto people, it's, they change, they say they're called like followers, but they're really not. They just, they're on the call for three months and they go to the next call for a week and then they go to the next call for a month, rent, repeat, the show goes on, right? Which is wild. And, and, and what, when, when my friends say I'm asked me, you know, my, my, more of my friends go, Matt, well, what's in on one or two? I'll, too. I'm just like, what, when you're on, we're recording on Riverside, shut up Riverside. No free ads. I mean, what is this? C++? Is it node? Is it JavaScript? I don't know. But I honestly don't give a shit because it works well for you in the show notes. I use notion. Notion is where I keep all of my notes for every single guest I've ever had on. What does it run on? Tech guy. Honestly, I don't really know. And I don't really give a shit as long as it works. That's how crypto should be. You know, it really has a batter as long as it works. I agree. A hundred percent. We just want to get folks on chain. Like, that's obviously best for the industry. They need help like way, way, way higher above like an L1 versus L2 device to, to help get on chain. Yeah. Let's go back to Coinbase for a sec. We're going to, this little off topic probably I could be putting words in your mouth. My apologies. I would assume you maybe on some Coinbase stock, I own some Coinbase stock. I've had it literally since IPO. I was fortunate enough to buy some in the dip as well. I think it's still a good buy. I don't know what's happening with base. I don't know how that would work. As a shareholder, I'm like, am I going to get an air drop? Can you air drop the shareholders? How does this work? What do you think is good there? And I know you work with them. You probably don't want to, and I'm not talking smack or anything. I just, I just don't understand how this is going to work. If, think about the liquidity fragmentation, I think of the value fragmentation, the loss of value, if you have a multi-billion dollar company in public markets and a multi-billion dollar chain. And the chain will go to a billion dollars. There's no chance it launches at any FDV less than 10 figs. What the hell happens there? What do we do? Yeah. I don't have the answer. Nordo, I have any specific insight. I'll share a couple thoughts. I worked at Coinbase for four and a half years, and it was like, amazing. I have, I am a shareholder. I will be a shareholder for life of Coinbase. I think it is not just probably one of the most well-run companies in crypto. I think it is like a top, you know, one to two percent well-run company, you know, globally in industry. And I think it will continue to, to be that forever. I totally take Jesse and Brian at their word when they say we are exploring this. And I do not think they would launch something that wouldn't in any way dilute either one shareholder value or to the value and opportunity that is based. They will find a way to merge these things congruently and like in a way that's like very synergistic amongst the two or they won't do it. I totally believe that. And I don't think they have, I mean, again, I'm just taking them at their word, but I know them both well. So I trust them here. Like, I don't think they know what that looks like yet. And I think they're going to go through an crazy like ideation and creative process to figure out how they can get there. But if they don't get there, I don't think they'll do anything. The second thought that I've had on this is that I could see a much more tightly-scoped token that is really, that again, doesn't touch any of the shareholder stuff or any like, you know, value to shareholders. It really just is a way to enable base to 10x, you know, its growth or accelerate its growth rate. It's really incredible how much success bases had without a token. I don't know that we have another example of that in crypto besides, you know, brands maybe like a buy and answer or something like that. Create a chain without a token and having the success that they've had is like pretty unique. If they could find ways to, you know, just continue to bend their growth trajectory higher, that will accrete value back to the shareholders because bases, you know, revenue will continue to grow much, much, much faster. And I think then gives the company more space and creativity and just opportunity to move on chain, which is the direction the business is going. So I do anything that's good for base as ultimately good for Coinbase. Those are my high level thoughts. I like it. I agree with you. I do think I agree with everything except the fact that if they launch a base token, it's good for the shareholders. I just don't see, and again, unless revenue is like off the chain, I don't know, no pun intended. I don't know how that could happen, but when it comes to just Coinbase, shareholders versus base token, I mean, I do, I do think that they will take a very long, winded approach. They will weigh every single pro icon out there hundreds, if not thousands of man hours, woman hours will be put into this. And I trust them in executing. But when I heard the news, I was like, and we all know it was coming. Like, I mean, you know, it's tough. But what do you do there? I really don't know. And I'm excited for it. I'll tell you, there's not many other good examples of like crazy shareholder value in like traditional equity and like truly on-chain opportunity here. I mean, Coinbase has an opportunity to do something really, really unique. And that's not to say that's even possible right now. I mean, hopefully post-clarity act. Maybe there's more design space for them to work with. But like, I'm excited. I hope that they can nail something that is like truly synergistic. And if they start doing that, I mean, what's to stop every publicly traded entity? I mean, circle did it, right? But again, sort of different because circle's product is really just yield. Obviously, they have tons of distribution. But it's really just yield at the end of the day. It goes back to the shareholder's blah, blah, blah. But there's like, what about Kraken? What about Bullish? What about all these companies that have and are launching IPOs? Like, what if they just start firing off tokens too? This could open the floodgates if they create some novel structure to provide value to both avenues. I mean, I could back to the other way too, which like, why would it not be like Robinhood? And then Charles Schwab and like Stripe or whoever. I mean, this has been, I can say this and like, I don't think this is like private knowledge. Like, this is something like this has been a dream inside Coinbase for a long time. How do we continue to create the value we're creating in our company and bring that on-chain? And not just doing it in a way that's like awesome for Coinbase and it shareholders and users. But then also is a model for others to follow. And Coinbase is like that brand that like Robinhood can drag, you know, other big brands forward into like this new, whatever ecosystem, on chain ecosystem that we're working towards. Yeah, I think it's super exciting, it's a cool opportunity for them. Yeah. I mean, also, I'm sure you saw the news 401K. The green light is open for crypto and 401K in the States. We don't have that yet in Canada. I mean, of course, you can put public-driven stocks that have crypto exposure and ETFs in your RSP, TFSA, which are sort of tax-reinvestment vehicles. But when you can stick crypto right inside that, man, that's going to, that's going to get a lot of fun too. You guys are moving in Groven, I mean, Shadow Trump, at least on the crypto side of things. He's definitely doing what he said there. He is opening up the floodgates. And in classic Trump faction, he's extracted a shitload of value outside of that, too. I think the Trump family is up like three or four belly over the last literally calendar year. Craziness. Anyways, let's go back to LP here. I want to talk stablecoins in particular. We just sort of touched on, on, on circle, stablecoins going parabolic. How do you guys really jig and jag and stablecoins? Again, I also feel like, I mean, tether is sort of doing it right now. If like a lot of these stablecoins are going to try to launch their own coins as well. So they can own the tax act just like you started the show with. But how does OP in particular really help stablecoins get to the next level? Yeah, good question. I'll be totally honest and that like we're trying to figure it out right now. I don't know that we have all the answers as it pertains to stablecoins in particular. There's though a couple of different ways that we think about this. One is like, we do own the rails. We own the protocol. So if there are unique things or things that need to change in sort of the blockchain protocol that uniquely enable payments, we're obviously very happy to make that happen. And if you go compare like how payments rails work, something like Swift to just like a blockchain transaction, they're pretty different. There's a lot more metadata associated with like a Swift transaction than there is something that's on chain. You tend to just know like to account from account, you know, amount. That's kind of like the most that you get in a blockchain transaction. So I think there's actually a pretty big design space as payments, you know, try to move more natively on chain. I think it's one of the reasons you see tempo and arc, you know, trying to take stabs at what this might be. But I think we're in the very early. And so one is like, we're just trying to learn from folks that have, you know, stablecoin use cases to say like, what do we need to do to make these rails more conducive, you know, to you growing volume there? Second big piece is just DeFi. Like that's clearly like a spot that has product market fit right now. There's always stuff for us to do at the chain level to make DeFi better. So blocks way better for DeFi, more cheaper transactions means it's like more Arb opportunities because you can like, you know, suddenly like a half a cent Arb opportunity makes sense if you're transactionally cost one one thousandth of a cent. Yeah. So constantly like trying to improve the chain as just generic infrastructure for DeFi, which we think just makes the total like net available liquidity or TAM of DeFi, if you will, greater, which means more stable points, you know, can be used in DeFi. So that's like one very specific area that we push. It's not necessarily like, how are we, you know, hyper optimizing this for payments? The third is trying to help out with, I mean, I guess the third is broadly our interop solution. There's a flourishing of like native stablecoins right now, country specific, geo-specific stablecoins. And there's usually like a couple on and off ramps, you know, associated with those. But like the best way these stablecoins integrate with the rest of crypto is they can flow seamlessly around, you know, other blockchains, etc, yeah. And so we are always investing in interop to try and figure out how can we just make it as simple, quick and atomic as possible to move native coins from L2 to L2. This is only for, this will start with the OP stack and then eventually expand to other, other chains kind of like base is doing with their Solana bridge right now. But that's another where we think we can be helpful to these like more native or like smaller regional stablecoins, getting them access to all the liquidity that is available in crypto and getting those on and off ramps plugged into bigger on and off ramps. We think that will just kind of like juice the skids there a little bit more as well. Yeah, create that big flywheel. Stablecoins are getting excited. I mean, heck, I'm going to, we got to do a quick ad read one second, but before that, I'm going to Argentina next week and I girls from Argentina going to, you know, see your family. I mean, Argentina's elite, if you never been, you live in the mountains, I mean the mountains in our all world, Patigucci is all world. We'll get into that later. We can do a whole show about Argentina, but when you got Argentina, you can pay for shit and tether and it's funny because no one except circle there, no one, I was there for two months last year, I didn't see one vendor accepting circle. A lot of these people pay themselves and they don't pay themselves, excuse me, will transfer money in USDT to their wallets, a lot of them use Binance down there, they use, I forget the Mercado pay, they use a bunch of different things, but it's all tether. In Canada, we have e-transfer, you guys have Zell, you guys have all the different, what's the big one, not Zell? What's the one for you? No, no. Jesus, you guys have Venmo. But in the stir world countries, in Argentina, I wouldn't even say stir world, two and a half world, second world, whatever, developing, they all use tether, which is crazy. And it's cool because you and I are talking about sort of only business like applications for stable coins where there's a huge, there's hundreds of millions of people soon to be probably billions who will realistically be using stable coins for everyday stuff because their currencies are such dog shit. That's just the matter of the fact that it is. So that's something really exciting that really gets me going because in Canada, I don't ever get to see crypto in day to day. It just doesn't happen. Where when I go to Argentina, I actually get to see it happen, which is really cool. I'll give you a super quick story. One of the funnest parts about working at Coinbase in 2018 was it was mostly like missionaries. It wasn't a big company yet. So like other tech people weren't coming to work at Coinbase. It was only people that knew and believed in crypto. A lot of folks came from emerging economies. Like they had immigrated to the US with their families and like they had real visceral stories of like why crypto was already differentiated in their life and then they all came to Coinbase and like shared those stories and like I still think that like I don't know that I could explain crypto or I don't even know if I've still be a part of it. But I didn't have access to that back in the day. It was really like eye opening. And yeah. Anyway, one of the things I like super valued about Coinbase back in the day. So cool. Wow. Sam, you're our role. Having a blast here. Quick shout out to PrimexBT, longtime friends and longtime sponsors of the crypto news podcast. Below the team at PrimexBT is they offer a robust trading system for both beginners and professional traders that doesn't matter if you're a rookie or a vet. You can easily design and customize your layouts and widgets to best fit your trading style. PrimexBT is also running an exclusive promo for listeners of the crypto news podcast. These are the promo code crypto news 5 0 that is crypto news 50 onward to receive 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account and crypto news 5 0 to receive 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. Okay. Walking through super chain. I've seen this a lot online recently as well, especially in doing research for the show. Yeah. Even bull posting super chain to even just doing some some quick little proxy searches on OP optimism super chain. It's absolutely everywhere. My apologies on this. I this is definitely on me. I didn't do enough research on super chain, but give me the goods on super chain. What exactly is it? Is it still completely under you guys? Is it a conglomerate? Like what exactly is super chain? Yeah. The simplest way to think of the super chain. It is a sort of like collection of OP stack L2s that are all sharing some portion of their revenue or trying to find portion of their revenue back with optimism so that we can continue to reinvest in the core product as well as incentives to this set of chains. And so like the headliners, most people know, but base, obviously, unicane, world chain, OP main net, Sony M, Inc. would be the biggest ones. But there's a long tail of, you know, another 15 to 25 or so somewhere in there. And all of them are running basically the exact same software. We all sort of share like development practices. Everyone's contributing back to it again, share revenue, which allows us to aggressively invest in OP labs at leveling up the product, etc. So really it's just like all the people, all the, all the chains that are, you know, optimism or OP stack chains out there in the world would be like the simplest way to think of it. I love it. Okay. Super chain. Good name. Like I said, it is a super chain. Exactly what it says. I want to get into the fun stuff. We've had a big, big buzz on OP last thing flash box. You guys just introduced flash box. I mean, you guys should have had a crazy pace customization features in flash box. Give us the TLDR on flash box and then we'll get into some, some drama, some hyperliquid versus aster some CZ crime season, some crazy, you know, hyperliquid or, excuse me, Biquant stuff. We'll get into the wacky trendy stuff after. Yes. Super fun. We have a really close partnership and relationship with flash spots. They're sort of, you know, the leading R&D flash just like builders for L1, block builders for L1. And now in the L2 space and they build a ton on the OP stack, partnership with them as well as a bunch of our chains, launch something called flash blocks. This took our block times, which used to be two seconds for most chains down to 200 milliseconds right now and probably on down sooner to 150, 100 milliseconds, et cetera. I mentioned earlier faster block times way better for D5 because there's more opportunities to arbitrage out, you know, price changes and things like that. If you have to wait two seconds, the price of Bitcoin has probably changed a lot. But if you only have to wait 100 milliseconds, it hasn't changed that much. So it allows D5 to be much more, just like liquid and efficient, but also you and I as users, like we expect to push a button and an app and get a response immediately. I can't wait two seconds for a block to get built. And so it really moved. I mean, it improved our UX, literally an order of magnitude 10x faster and gave us a platform to continue to push on this to make things faster as we go forward. We think 200 milliseconds is a good start. It's a pretty typical like web response time. But yeah, we want to continue to drive this down so that OP stack chains are again just like not only the best for D5, but they're the best for just like anyone wanting to build on chain UX. Very interesting. Okay. Anything else on OP before we get into some wacky stuff? The thing I'll say is we believe pretty much every large enterprise in the world is going to be running their own chain in the next five to 10 years. We hope to be a big part of that off chain to on chain migration. And that's kind of just what I think Optimism's mission is for the next decade. I like that. Well said. Do you guys probably have the the the home line buzzing from Fortune 500 companies? I'd love to see love to hear that and love to see it. Okay. We'll go through some rapid fire stuff and then we can wrap up here. Astor hyper liquid. Is Astor here to stay or is this strictly CZ being the richest man in crypto, having God knows how many hundreds of billions of dollars pump in the chart? I think if I've learned anything, it's never doubt CZ, but also hyper liquid is just such a monster at this point. They've accumulated so much hype. I guess to yeah, no pun intended. Clearly they have staying power though. So I don't think this is either or I think competition is always good. CZ innovates as fast and as good as anyone in the space. So yeah, excited for the two to push on each other and see where it goes pumped off on wild stuff happening. I don't know if you've seen the streamers, the quality of streams that they're doing Sam like just causing havoc for views. This is the this is Gen Z at its finest. These kids are insane. They are wild. And one of my favorite quotes that I've seen so many times, the studies that I don't know how old you are, I'm a 95, I'm 30, when when we grew up, you know what everyone might want it to be in the in the classic like grade three, grade four, five, six study, it was athlete, singer, musician, firefighter, astronaut, scientist, lawyer. Now it's TikToker, YouTuber, Twitch streamer, friggin kick streamer and nothing else. They don't want to do anything but stream and be famous. Try to be crazy. Anyways, pumped out fun. Is the stream here to stay and is pumped a little good value out where it is right now. I mean, I think it's probably create value every time I have thought like this has to be the top for this platform or this like meta or this thing. It just like keeps going and like the numbers don't lie. I don't know what else to say. I love the I don't forget who started the phrase like, do you want to be right or do you want to make money? And like I have been wrong the whole time with pump funds. It's not something I'm into. I'm not going to get into it but yeah, I would say by it. I don't know. I love it. I absolutely love it. Any hot takes, any wild takes before before we let you go here today. I mean, we got a bunch of weird protocols popping up. We got plasma going live to more I believe. I think plasma is going to be an absolute cook. I mean, same palo's like CZ when palo gets into something. He's right about 99% of the time, shadow palo, one of the goats, tether raising at what is it? A $500 billion dollar valve. I think that was wild bound stuff. Any hot takes before we let you go. Oh, I don't have any good hot takes. I think the sort of like level of excitement and buzz and mania, maybe my biggest hot take is like, we're not doing the four year cycles anymore. We have reached some, some level is not to say like, we're not going to dip back down below here. I'm not talking prices. I'm more talking like energy for the space and adoption track size here. Like we now have the big brother. We have daddy backing us, which we never had before. And it's not just like them investing to make money. It's now them building. Yes. Unique financial use cases on top of the rails, which is like the next step from that, right? And so yeah, I think we've just, we've sort of leveled up again as an industry and I think this level is able to sustain quite a bit more going forward. Basically, I think this is like the new normal in terms of enterprise, institutional adoption, et cetera. Hopefully we don't have another FTX moment or anything like that in the short term to set us back. But barring something truly like black swan like that, I think it's just like, this is the new normal. I don't know what that means for prices, but it certainly means that we're all going to be really busy and hopefully inviting many, many more folks into our industry. Well said. Great. Happy Sam. I agree with you on the last take as well. I could be get wrecked anytime soon. Yes. But the level of wreckage will not be, we're not going to get some, you know, Bitcoin going from 120 all the way down to like 40k. It's not happening. I'm sorry. And if it does, I'm wrong. But Sam, what an happy. Appreciate you coming on. Open invite for round two. This was awesome. Really appreciate it. Shout out to your team as well. For weakness happened before we let you go. Can you please let our listeners know where they can find you personally? Only OP labs and optimism online and on socials. Yeah. Learn more about optimism at optimism.io. We're optimism on Twitter or OP labs as well on Twitter on Sam McIndale, all one word on Twitter. You'll find me there sparingly, but hopefully with some good take from time to time. Love it. Folks went in episode with Sam McIndale. Head of product that OP labs. He was on fire this episode. He pets a little bit of everything, moving your business on chain, deep dive into optimism's OP stack. Texts are coming to optimism. Stable coins. You name it. We touch it. Huge shout out to the team for making this happen. If you guys enjoyed this one, I hope you did. Please do subscribe. Hit that like button. It would mean the world to my team. And I speak to the team. Love you guys. Thank you so much for everything. And back to the listeners. Keep on growing those bags and keep on staying healthy, both the end. Happy. Love you guys. And we will see you on the next one.