Speaker 1so maggie one thing that we talk about a lot in our podcast is being curious it's something that we come back to time and time again because ultimately it's always the way that's sort of least intrusive and a good way to move things forward without taking away somebody else's agency basically but it feels like it's something that we should explore a little bit more maybe what we mean when we say we should be curious so as it's something that that you bring up quite a lot i'm gonna let you start by explaining a little bit more about what you mean and how we can approach things in a be curious way yes i think
Speaker 2someone's gonna write this on my gravestone maggie elliott 1978 too stay curious so essentially i think for me this maybe even started as a self-reflection area more so than something that i would talk to other people about but i think that we we can be very judgmental on ourselves which is a good starting point i um the things that we do um you know quickly jumping i'm really good to quickly jump to oh my god you're a complete failure that useless why did you even try doing it you shouldn't start in the first place if you don't wait like all of those things you should you must all of that um and so staying curious helps me manage that um i am less likely to go into that self-blame and that shame spiral if i'm like okay but what actually happened did something go wrong was it just the wrong time were you like there's all sorts of questions i can ask that help me get out of that because i'm quite good at dipping myself in there and staying there and then nothing gets me out of that and then i'm like okay i'm done so i feel like it's a really good self-reflection tool but then equally the other way as well because sometimes we can apply too much um we can over attribute our own success to personal qualities um and and so we can do it the other way around and go oh well that's because i'm amazing at and then we don't actually look into what happened and why it was good and why it worked out and then when we can't do the same thing again later and we failed it then we go back into that spiral again so i always think that when i'm doing something that i'm not good at i'm not looking at stuff i try to just be a little bit curious myself about why did that happen what was helpful there um and that's because behind all of this is things that we can't control they are always out there and they are always playing a part in it and i think it probably started my desire for curiosity particularly when i was working in an education system a public education system where so much of that is outside of me and i'm not good at it and i'm not good at it and i'm out of control and so i would be held responsible for my children's results but of course i'm not personally responsible for 150 different people's results that would be impossible there are so many other factors that fall into that but then also i would be in that situation looking at these kids and it would be really easy to go oh you didn't get that grade and then to attribute that to a personal failing to them that was something that i would be like oh well that was obviously something that i would be like oh well that was obviously something that i would be like oh well something to do with their character or their personality or um not basing the looking properly at the factors that would actually potentially contribute that they had no control over so particularly when you're working in a space where so much of it is not down to an individual but you are likely to look at the individual and see something as an outcome that is based on them solely you can really easily stop being you can really easily stop being curious and start making really bold um expectations decisions judgments on these things both for yourself and others and actually this is a cognitive bias it's called the attribution trap or the fundamental attribution error so essentially it is something that is being studied that we know about um and um that yeah it doesn't doesn't help us or assist us in any way to actually work out what is going wrong or what has created that success and then to actually work out what is going wrong or what has created that success and then be able to solve it or replicate it in the future it just creates judgment a lot of the time um and then that's not helpful to
Speaker 1anyone no no i can see that and actually it is a kind of um almost a default position a lot of the time isn't it it's kind of like well whose fault was it um where's the blame for this rather than allowing for the fact there are a lot of other factors outside of this rather than one person's choice and one person's actions and nothing is quite as simple as being able to say well it's all your fault and um this particular thing you should have done that and that would have solved everything yeah so i can see how yeah the both that that is a bit of a default from a human sort of societal position but also how it's not particularly helpful and the parallel that you said with um with you know teaching is obviously you know a really good one compared to us as personal trainers because again we have a lot of conversations with personal trainers about you know why clients aren't doing these things that they know would then give them the results and and there's that thing that can go in both the directions you've mentioned where the personal trainer takes full responsibility for all of it and decides that they're rubbish because their and therefore they must be doing something wrong or the other way where it's just like well the client's rubbish and i don't know why i'm working with them because they're not doing these things and therefore not getting the results and neither of those these sort of responses are actually helpful in any way because neither lead you to a sort of happy position where what you're you love what you're doing and everything's going well so it does bring us to the sort of the point of kind what do you do about that because if we take those two examples we don't want either of those we want almost an acceptance that i can have some contribution to this but i can't control it and the person i'm working with can also have some contribution to it but again can't control the outcomes of everything that they do and it's not just the two of us it's everything else that's going on in their lives that's going to have some sort of influence on this thing and whether it reaches an outcome yeah so i'm assuming you've got a nice little answer for me that's tied up in a bow that tells me how to deal
Speaker 2with all of this yeah of course you do because human beings are really simple um you see this is the problem and sometimes sometimes what you see might be true but unless you get curious you don't really know still any answers so let's take the client right who's not doing the things that they've said that they'll do and the things that you've suggested that they do and you might look at that client and the attribution trap could very easily be okay well that's a lack of willpower that's a lack of motivation and we could end it there and just say well that is a problem with that individual well that doesn't actually help us because it doesn't ask the question why why do they have a lack of willpower why do they have a lack of motivation and these answers are much much harder to come by which is why we apply the cognitive bias because these are nuanced and complex and they involve things that we can't solve so there are systems and structures and contexts that we have no control over so it might be for some people okay well there's a cost barrier maybe for some it's an access barrier or a time barrier maybe it's confidence maybe it's um self-esteem maybe there's a cultural fit here that isn't happening so there's there's always something feeding in to the barrier that is being caused for this person and so if we only see the individual and the what is happening as in oh it looks as though they're not motivated what we don't ever see is what is causing that there is a barrier then to motivation and what is that barrier and that's why i always think it's it's about getting curious because we have to ask questions and most of the time because because systems particularly i talk about systems a lot but they're designed to create the world we live in And they are designed to be invisible. They are designed to feel as natural as gravity so that we don't see them. We just assume that the world is like this. But there are actually choices that have been made over time and held historically that keep our societies the way they are. And that's why some countries operate differently culturally and societally to others, because their systems are different. The invisible forces that you see around causing people to believe that certain things should just happen a certain way. Now, because that is the case, we don't necessarily see the system that acts upon us. So, for example, if a woman, particularly with children, is struggling to exercise. She. She might attribute it to, well, I just don't seem to have the motivation anymore. But perhaps the system operating behind her is one which causes her to have less time than she used to, to have less money, to have less access to the exercise that she used to enjoy. And so she doesn't get to do the stuff she likes doing. Maybe it's made her more fatigued because of the other stuff she does on top of the things she used to do, but she doesn't notice that. And it's all an expectation with what other women do and they cope and they get on. So what's your problem? So she doesn't see the system that tells her that this is the way life is meant to be. She just feels the forces of it acting upon her. And then she blames herself. And when you hear her blame herself, it can be very easy to accept. Yeah, well, if you're not motivated, you'll never get it done. Where actually there is a system there that's keeping her from finding her motivation. There's a barrier in place. And unpicking that can help her gain confidence, self-esteem, feel like she can move forward and therefore feel more motivated because we know there's different forms of motivation, right? So it's a really hard thing to solve. And that's why we apply this cognitive bias because we can't walk around seeing the invisible forces that act upon us in everyday life because it would be like trying to see gravity. It would be impossible to live that way. So we close ourselves down to it and then we very easily become closed and then we stop asking questions. So I think the more questions we ask, the more curious we become, the more we understand. It doesn't mean we can solve it. That's the problem then. Because what do you do with it if you can't solve it? That's an excellent
Speaker 1question, isn't it? And I guess the answer is that we have to accept sometimes there are things that we can't solve or that we aren't the right person to solve. And that goes against something that we've discussed before, how that desire to fix, that desire to have the answers is quite strong. And it's particularly strong in personal trainers because that's kind of part of what we've been trained in. We're trained to know the answers when it comes to physical activity. And when someone's paying you for anything, you feel like you should know the answers. Even when it's something they ask you, something that could be completely unrelated to what you're trained in. There's this desire to be like, oh, I should know the answer. It's kind of, there's nothing that says I should know the answer to this. It's not something I've been trained in. But we kind of want to fix. We want to help. We want that feeling that comes with knowing that you've helped, knowing that you've fixed, that you've done something good. And so it can be a big change for us to accept that sometimes there's stuff that can't be done or we shouldn't be doing. And to learn how to navigate that in terms of communication, in terms of acknowledging people in a way that makes them feel seen and heard, but doesn't then put ourselves in a position that we don't want to be because we don't want to take responsibility for something that we shouldn't be taking responsibility for, but also that doesn't leave us feeling like we failed because we couldn't fix it because we didn't know the answers.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. And a lot of the time, what can really help people just in understanding this and you helping them to understand it is acceptance. Them accepting that there are systems and structures and environments that are going to be a barrier to what they want to achieve. And maybe at that moment, there isn't a way around, but acceptance stops. And from judging themselves and blaming themselves and going into this spiral and circle of shame, which basically is obviously going to be harmful to anyone. It's going to prevent us from being able to move forwards in the areas we can make a change in a difference. And then equally, for us, as particularly as PTs, if we're going to build long lasting relationships with people where we actually see the person and can help the person, support the person, accepting that there are things in the world in their life that they cannot change. The things that, yes, it would be ideal and optimal if, but actually we don't live in an ideal and optimal world. And so acceptance is another part of curiosity because it's not about being curious and then finding a way to fix it. Sometimes it's about curious, finding acceptance in what you have found and then moving around that because we all have to be able to live in the world we're in. And if their goal is to say, lose weight, what's that attached to? Well, is it attached to health? Well, in actual fact, then maybe we can't solve this particular element and area because there's barriers there that are working against you. But maybe we can help you to become as healthy as you possibly can. But even in health, there are systems and structures and barriers that stop us from being able to access it fully. And so accepting that we don't have individual, personal control over everything. And the reason we believe we do is another system we can't see. I'm such a fun person. My heart is clear. But if you know me, you will know I talk about neoliberalism a lot. And that is a structure that's been with us for the past 50 years that was put in place intentionally, politically to create this notion in the West particularly that we as individuals are personally responsible for everything we do, all the goals we have and all the ways in which we can move towards those goals. But actually we know if we sit down and we look at things that working in communities helps us. Anyone who works, in the gym, knows that it is in essence a community and that going there and being with other people, even if you work out on your own in that space, is something that can overcome a barrier for some people. That working out online and being in communities in those spaces can overcome barriers. We know that actually this individualism isn't necessarily something that is something useful and good for us or something that is true. It's just a story that's told to us, which means that when we fall into a cognitive bias, we fall into that system and we go, my fault, me, I was responsible for that. I am an individual. I'm the only person who can solve this. I need to look after my own health, my own fitness. You only see yourself. And as PTs, we can very easily put that upon our clients and only see them and not see all the other things that exist around them that are actually putting a lot of pressure and force and context into what is going on. It's not just an individual. So it's a very complex thing. Now, obviously, the easy way around that, which is why I say it all the time is, so stay curious, be curious, always ask questions and then you're not falling into that trap because you're always looking for a different answer other than this is my fault or this is your fault or you just don't care or you couldn't be bothered. We are less likely to fall into that individual trap and then we're more likely to be able to find ways that we can work around that. Most importantly, we're more likely to build better relationships because we're not just judging ourselves and each other. And so we have, we are the only people in the world with any control over what happens.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I guess like most things, there's a place here for kind of playing with the terminology yourself and working out what it is that resonates with you. Because as we've been talking, I've realized as well, you know, something that I've said quite a lot is about, viewing things as an experiment. And ultimately, that's the same as being curious because it opens things up to not being tied to a particular outcome based on a set number of behaviors. It's more a case of, why don't we try this and see what happens? And that's an approach that I've always found really helpful, particularly when you have got people who are kind of stuck on a particular idea. And I say that, that applies to myself as much as to any clients or anybody else I've ever worked with. Because I can be stubborn. So it's a way around that stubbornness sometimes is to be like, let's just try and see. Let's do this as an experiment rather than a case of it being a set kind of way of doing things. You know, my background, I was an accountant. I'm used to, I'm drawn to things where it's like, these are set rules and you do these things and they come together in this way. And so I know I have those biases, which means that when I'm looking at something say like weight loss and I've applied it to myself, you know, I had all sorts of not necessarily, well, yeah, spreadsheets of, you know, if I lose this at two pounds a week over this period of time, that's going to be the result. And, you know, that was the way my numbers brain went. And yeah, when you have those kind of thoughts and processes and then something goes wrong and it doesn't work in that way, it becomes, well, it didn't work. The whole model's flawed. And therefore, you're going to get rid of it. Whereas when you can approach it with, well, let's just try this and see, let's experiment with that. Let's accept that things aren't going to work in this nice linear way that your brain wants them to. And how can I get myself to accept that? And I can do that whether I view it as an experiment, whether I view it as curiosity, whether I view it as let's try it and see. These kind of like all open up the possibilities rather than the sort of natural, natural default of, well, this isn't working or this isn't going to work or I can't do it because of X. And it's a way around, stick with me, my natural stubbornness. But it's also a way when we're working with other people of exploring things when you do have somebody that's sort of, I can't do this for whatever reason or it won't work for whatever reason. And it's not just in a sort of exercise and nutrition space. That can be something that talking to a lot of PTs is. applies to them in their businesses and well i can't do that that won't work or it's not possible there where i this my gym won't let me do this thing so therefore i can't do any of these things and as soon as we start flipping that to a more open idea of what can i do what are the options because there's normally you know 20 different ways you can do stuff and actually we've just discounted five of them but the other 15 some are better than others but there's always options kind of thing it just helps you move forwards in a positive way rather than i it's an approach i use a lot when people are kind of stuck in terms whatever it is whether it's a fitness nutrition based issue whether it's a business-based issue and it's uh something that somebody i'm talking to in essentials membership um for ltb or whether it's myself now obviously it's a lot easier working it through with somebody else and giving them the prompts to think things through than it is myself um because i can work around myself i need to because i know what i think which is where these kind of things it can be useful to have somebody else involved and i think yes we can absolutely provide that person when we're dealing with our clients but actually for a lot of pts you could probably benefit from finding somebody who you can talk to who you know is going to listen and be curious rather than try and find someone who you know is going to listen and be curious rather than try and find someone fix and come in with answers because i think we've all got the people in our lives where we're kind of like yeah i'll absolutely talk to you about some stuff but i'm not asking you when i need help because i don't want those answers um there's somebody else i'll go to when i need to explore things rather than want somebody to just agree with me or to give me an answer and we're going to pick and choose a little bit and i think that's something to bear in mind if you are kind of feeling a bit stuck whether it's business whether it's fitness whether it's something else in your life is kind of how can i help you and i think that's something to bear in mind if you are kind of be curious if i can't do it myself is there somebody i can kind of chat to who i know will help me with that exploration rather than sort of narrowing my options more by being a bit more this is the answer and that's
Speaker 2it and whether you're doing change work with an individual whether you're doing it in an organization it it always requires you to look outside of that what you can see and even if that means that you don't come up with an answer so you say you are working with an individual and they are working towards change behavior change of some kind or just change of some kind towards a goal to be able to help them to see the factors that are in their way that are barriers at that moment in time you might not necessarily need to be able to remove the barriers but no one ever moved forward in to towards change whilst in shame or blame so to just get somebody out of that is helpful in placing them in a position where they can move forward because whilst someone is going i'm the reason i'm the problem i'm the fault then no one will ever move forward from it now that doesn't mean that they'll move forward in the direction that you all day at that moment in time think they should because that's the goal they set but it might mean that they can move out of that state and then move into somewhere different that is more beneficial to them psychologically than it was before weight loss is a really good example because i think part of all these systems that exist that we can't see we've truly come to believe in the whatever century we're in now in the 21st century 21st century yeah we made it that far didn't we goodness me um question it sometimes and um but we're in that space now where i think it has been reduced so much weight loss to calories in calories out because capitalism loves a slogan and it loves to be able to sell off a slogan and it loves to be that their fault is what they can't achieve but actually there are so many forces that sit in uh in action around weight loss that have nothing to do with the things that an individual does so someone could exercise to their heart's content they could change their diet they could do all sorts of things and they might lose weight for a bit but then they regain it again or maybe they don't lose weight at all or maybe over time things just become impossible after a while and that's because there are so many different influences that are going on in our lives that are going to influence in and intersecting factors they're environmental that are systemic that are um structural that are contextual that are genetic that are psychological that are physiological like there are so many factors that that person can't control that on their own and the idea that they should be able to is not a one based in fact or evidence it is one that has come about because we love cognitive bias we love reducing things down to being simple we love to be able to set a goal and head towards it and the fitness industry is part of a trillion pound dollar whatever industry that wants to sell people things and so we can easily very easily fall into a trap of not seeing the invisible forces that sit behind things and believing instead that we are individually responsible for the things we want to achieve when actually there are many forces that act on it now i talk about this a lot with people that come into the studio does it help them lose weight? no does it help them stop blaming themselves and living in shame and feeling that they are a bad person because they couldn't lose weight sometimes perhaps does it help them to move forward and start to to change the way they think about themselves maybe perhaps and all of that is incredibly important because it branches out into other areas but also we know we go back to the weight loss example but weight bias and stigma that feeling that you are a bad person because you are in a larger body is as dangerous maybe more so than being in a larger body so to stop someone feeling bad and awful and terrible and shameful and blaming themselves is actually incredibly important if we are going to help them become healthier and fitter people and i know for a fact for example that people who come in here having tried weight loss for most of their lives and given up also gave up on exercise because the only reason they were exercising was to lose the weight and when they actually attributed the two to each other they fell into an attribution trap it was pointless exercising i was bad at that it didn't work for me and therefore i should stop where actually we all know that just doing exercise regardless of what happens as a result of it is really really good for us so let's encourage people keep doing that if we don't see anything other than the individual and we have the capacity to only place blame on an individual whether that's ourselves or somebody else then we are missing a huge huge picture and we are also missing the places in which we can actually truly help people and the same would apply so you gave an example of business exactly that as well if you're trying to move your business forward if you're trying to develop things if you're trying to grow it and you think that you are solely responsible for everything that happens the members you gain and the members you lose you will fall into a trap where you don't question what works and what didn't whether there was other forces at play whether this that all the rest of it you can simply just fall into this trap where you think well i failed now you live in shame and blame and you've moved forward with nothing because those are not spaces where we can be creative and we have the confidence to push forward regardless because it's worth trying something new because we get stuck in well that failed i'm useless there's no point i can't run a business full stop so one thing that i think
Speaker 1would be useful to to just look at a little bit is maybe a couple of examples about kind of the how because we're in that habit of trying to fix we're in that habit of trying to solve that's the stuff that comes to our brains first and if the filters are a little bit lacking sometimes maybe out of our mouths first unless that's just just me and so sometimes it's i find it useful for myself and i know that people have to kind of come up with things that you've sort of practiced almost so you've got these sentences that can kind of come out first or you can draw on when you're there going i don't know i don't know i don't know i okay i don't really know what to say here but ultimately it'll be good to explore this right how do i practically apply curiosity without diminishing what the person has said because it's obviously quite important that we don't kind of also just dismiss what they've just told us go yes but you need to think about why um have you got any examples about how you might approach it
Speaker 2so i i think the most important thing when someone is in a situation where they might be blaming themselves or something or they feel personally responsible for a lack of being able to move forward or achieve their goal or whatever it is is to start off with a with an acknowledgement of how hard that is like help them feel seen because a lot of the time we have got ourselves so stuck in our own negative feelings that there is no way out of it but we've also not realized that so very often i will simply say to someone something like that god that feels really that sounds like that's really hard or oh gosh your brain's being a bit mean to you right now isn't it you've said a lot of things there that are quite negative about yourself and then they might go oh yeah well that's how i feel and they're like oh i mean that's hard well tell me more tell me more is the best place to go because what we don't want to do is assume we don't want to move into fixing mode like we have no idea why this is the way it is or has been we just want to hear more once you hear more from someone you generally start to understand why they're feeling potentially or how they're feeling and then you can ask more questions it's not ever about you being able to to solve the problem and if you take that out of the equation you can just keep asking them questions that help them move into somewhere and sometimes that ends up with them going god yeah I didn't realize I was being so down on myself and um or it made me realize that oh I didn't realize that actually that was going on that is there's quite a lot in my life right now isn't that I didn't realize I'm quite stressed at work actually when I think about it like they start to explore it themselves quite often and maybe because I train women who are quite open to this but quite often you know I'll see them next week they go do you know what after that conversation we had last week I got in contact with my therapist and we had a chat and I feel a lot better now and I've got some places to move forward to or sometimes I say to them have you ever tried counseling or had a chat with a therapist or anything because this is the kind of thing they can really help with like again you're not there to cross boundaries to become their therapist like don't do that don't put yourself in that position either but essentially you can be there to ask them simple questions such as oh can you tell me more about that or oh how does that feel or what do you do you know why why do you think that is and like and when you do hear them say something really bad about themselves like I think it's because I'm a complete failure I'm completely useless you go oh that that that's pretty negative doesn't sound right to me either because that's not who you are and who I know you to be so let's think around that what might be going on in your life that's making it harder to achieve that like start asking questions around what it is that they're feeling but certainly I think if I I can acknowledge that people are feeling down about themselves and in in that space where they can't see outside of their own failure then to get them into a different space where they see that other things contribute they are not alone they are not alone they are not alone they are not alone solely responsible just by asking those those questions um can be really helpful um but again not you don't need to solve it you're not there to solve it what you might notice I said is that they would benefit from talking to someone who can help them and again not with solving it speak to any counsellor they're not going to fix them or solve it what they are going to do is help with the acceptance and then with finding a way to move forward around the barrier because sometimes we can't knock that barrier down sometimes we can't break through it sometimes we have to find another way around you have to be the right age for this but do you remember the book we're going on a bear hunt we're going on a bear hunt it was like you can't go through it we can't go around it we'll have to go over it like it's that it's always thinking about how do we navigate this and the answer isn't always straightforward sometimes it's through it but sometimes it's not and sometimes it's around and over and under and there are all sorts of other ways of getting to the point we want to be at and that I think is also where we return to the question of what is that person's goal because a lot of time they give us extrinsic goals but they come from an intrinsic motivation somewhere we can help dig into that over time and work out with them what that is it can be even easier to help them around the barriers because actually the goal they said to us they wanted to achieve might not be what they're actually ultimately looking for and that's what we're looking for um and so you know that in itself can be a barrier um so it's always just asking questions it doesn't matter what the questions are just tell me more tell me more can you tell
Speaker 1me more about that yeah I think that as you say kind of understanding more particularly when it comes to goals and understanding more about where their goals are coming from and what other goals they have or what other influences there are around yeah it's possible that they're going to to have conflicting goals that that can be you know equally important and then you end up in a kind of situation where things are just stagnating because they can't move forward they can't both move forward simultaneously so therefore they're kind of fighting against each other and you've got that kind of issue the ambivalence the the the other things that kind of go on around that so being able to understand what the goals are and then them understand that and then them understand how they're competing and then be able to come up with solutions and other options and things is always going to be good and similarly when goals that people come up with aren't necessarily their real goals they're things that they think they should be having goals about which is always a challenge in the fitness space because there is always that kind of idea that oh well you're a fitness professional so therefore you must think these things so therefore I've got to tell you what I think you want you think I should do going on there that means people come to you and say a goal that sometimes they don't really care about at all they just think they should care about which is always that that sort of challenge that we have but I think goal setting and the differences between the types of goals is probably a different separate conversation we can have somewhere else so is there anything else that you think that we should cover around this idea of being curious and what are some of the things that you think we should cover around this idea of being why it's important or the practical ways of doing it
Speaker 2I just say keep in your mind when you are having conversations with people or you are thinking things through yourself that the key thing you want to look for is if it's not down to my character behavior or personality is there something that is contextual that is circumstantial that is systemic that is structural that is biological that is psychological that is is there another thing that you think is important that you think is important that you think is important that you think is important that you think is important that you could feed into this and immediately there will be a yes because it always exists we don't live in silos of things that they like just existing in little bubbles that move through the world like we interact with the world and the world interacts with us and so there will always always always be other things that contribute that we can attribute to things and to be aware that they do exist and that curiosity is about working out what those things might be and then working either around them towards them away from them whatever it is that comes out of that you'll only know until you understand what it is in the first place and some of those things are outside of our control and that's okay too and as always a pleasure chatting
Speaker 1to you I look forward to our next conversation Thank you.
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