Speaker 1as pts i think we are naturally the kind of people who
Speaker 2are the helpers in life the people who like to try and support other people in fixing their problems or if we can take the problem off them we know the answer we'll fix it and we'll make life better i think we tend to be those sorts of people and that can sometimes present a bit of a challenge when actually coaching is technically not about fixing and we can often without realizing it fall into a trap where a client tells us what they're struggling with or what they want help with or what they um a problem that they've got and then we immediately switch into fixing solutionizing that word um is in america i'm pretty sure um um i'm going to use it solutionizing um when actually if we were to fall into coaching in inverted commas we might approach it differently um i don't know claire is that just me is this a thing i've come up with that doesn't exist or do you think that that is something that you've experienced or seen
Speaker 1and i think i mean i'm sure you're probably the same however much you might know in theory that you shouldn't be trying to fix stuff when you know the answer to something you want to help and let's face it a lot of clients come to us kind of sometimes wanting a fix and they are looking to us as an authority and we are we do have information that will potentially help but they may not have that they would need in order to make their decisions of course we shortcut all of that because we're humans and we go straight to i know the answer ask me ask me so it comes from that kind of i want to help i think most of the time tied with the fact that i mean if we look at the qualification and all of that you know we go through this process of learning the what people should do and we learn that in this theoretical vacuum and i use should there intentionally and it's it's based on this you know set of principles and ways to approach things that don't don't always work when we're faced with a real life human it's very much a theoretical vacuum i think but i certainly felt like it when i i learned versus you know when i started working with real people so you have this idea that there is you know one way to stand and one way to move and one way to do things and that to get this result you have to do these things in this order over this period of time and i think that's a really good example and i think that all leads us into this kind of idea that yeah we have the answers and people are coming to us for the answers and therefore obviously we're going to give those but that as long with this natural sort of human idea that you know we want to fix things is what leads us to this situation where as soon as someone says well i might want to do such and such we're like straight in there with the answer so no not something you've come up with definitely definitely bigger than that
Speaker 2definitely bigger than that and it's it's funny isn't it because i think it very much comes from a good place it comes from that place of wanting to help wanting to provide support not wanting to let a person down um and and i think sometimes maybe there's a little bit of well i should know the answer to this we've used that word both of us now should it's all the shoulds and the have to and the must and actually that is part of the problem with it is that when we are thinking in this way we are pushing that thinking then onto the client as well so now there's no flexible thinking there's no flexibility in the way we're offering the solution or in the solution the client is hearing they're just hearing an answer that they feel like they're either going to have to try and fit to and maybe they'll try but also maybe they'll fail because that answer isn't right and partly because they didn't come up with it but then also we are creating a situation where maybe they actually just fail and now they feel like a failure because they couldn't achieve the thing that we told them to do and it all becomes a bit muddied because essentially all we were trying to do is help and provide an answer and what they were doing was simply trying to apply that but there was too much and it's very much psychologically but in the way of that that couldn't ever be accounted for even if the client comes up with an idea of a should or must or a have to themselves actually research tells us they're still very likely to fail because of the fixed mindset they've created around it so we it's about avoiding getting our clients and ourselves into this fixed mindset even though the only reason anyone ends up there is because we had really good intentions
Speaker 1yeah i think we have those situations where it seems like an obvious answer sometimes as well so it's not even we're not talking about just those situations where it's a new client come to us and we're presenting something or coming up with an answer with them it's it's not like everything somebody says something almost in passing and you kind of go i know the answer to that so you can you give it but it doesn't actually necessarily hit in the same way and sometimes we're there going well i know five different answers to that i'm going to give you the one that i think is most relevant because i know i've got these backup ones because the person that we're talking to doesn't know that these other answers so again they think this is the only answer and then if they fail with that they think oh well i can't do this rather than oh there were other things i could have tried and we're not going to do that so it's not like we're going to do that and we didn't it didn't come up because we never discussed those because we just went in with this is what you need to do so it it's it's a natural thing and it is something that i think you know when you're aware or even when you're aware of it you try hard to to sort of stop but naturally sort of sometimes these things do do crop up and there's always a place isn't it there's this balance between sometimes the shortcut all the shortcuts developed for a reason and sometimes you have to do them because you have if every conversation that you ever have is a deep meaningful one where you ask loads of questions and you go for curiosity and you get somebody to come up with the answer there aren't enough hours in the day and i and having said that on top of that my patience doesn't last that long i couldn't do it with everybody in every conversation let's switch on and off a little bit i feel a long conversation of open opening kind of curiosity when i'm in the supermarket or something like that would definitely drive me nuts
Speaker 2oh my goodness yeah i mean like we're not going to use it when we're looking for where the rice is are we word be word where do you think you could look for the rice maggie which is also to be fair by the time i've asked someone what i have asked myself several times over where would i put the rice but it's never where i would put it apparently um i have spent many hours in supermarkets looking for things that aren't in a logical place that i would have put them um but yeah this is it like it is very much about coaching it's very much about supporting people to find the answers that they need and sometimes we are the people with the answers and then i think it's about how we give those answers i was having a conversation with somebody the other day in one of the workshop sites i live at in greater manchester they were a family hub worker i work with children they go in and see that well they work with the parents of the children very early years stuff so pre-nursery generally speaking and um sort of like very new mothers some of them have had children before some of them are brand new to it so they work with a wide range of people and we were talking about um just this sort of thing asking questions keeping the questions open all that kind of motivational interviewing carl rogers person-centered therapy self-determination theory bringing all of that into it which is very much about move away from this idea that either of you have a fixed mindset and you're not going to be able to do anything about it so i think it's very important to have a fixed mindset about where this could go and be curious and be empathetic and be compassionate and they're early years workers they are naturally empathetic and compassionate people and they're really really good at their jobs and um the particular thing we were thinking we were talking about was um talking to mums about vaccinations and particularly new mums when they might not know much about it and they might not know what the effects are and things like that and they've got lots of questions and giving them the space for those questions but also when the mum doesn't have lots of questions but just doesn't seem to have taken their child and that you could really easily fall into an assumption that they've not taken the child and they've not had the vaccinations because they don't believe in them but actually a lot of the time there's so many other potential things going on it could be environmental or social or maybe it's like um access issues like do they have to get a bus can they drive a car is it on at the times when they're not at work like all these things are going to matter and we've been talking about it and i've been talking about it for a long time and i've been talking about it for a long time and we've got to the point where they were having a go uh sort of talking about scenarios and another woman said to me she's like right she said I get this all and I completely agree with that she said but I can't work out how I could ask this differently and she said I'm saying to the mum because I've got a solution and I know what that solution is I'm saying to her well why don't you take them to x y or z and she just says oh yeah I could and then she doesn't and I'm like right so you never really got to the bottom of why don't you because you asked her essentially a closed question she knew that why don't you didn't mean why don't you she didn't she knew it was a rhetorical question because we all understand that sometimes you use the word just as well weren't you just and essentially what she had instead was a closed question where she was saying take them to this at this time so you didn't get an answer or are you going to take them to this at this time yes no so she didn't get an answer I was like so I essentially got to the bottom of why don't you because you asked her essentially a closed question said to them on the table say come up with five other questions that would be more curious that don't yet give the solution but would help you know if that is the solution and then you can say oh actually there's this on at this time in this place would that be something you can access or is there still a barrier there for you that we can help you work around so like there's ways of having a conversation that doesn't necessarily take these long deep and meaningful you don't have to get to the bottom of a lot of things but just by being a little more curious before the solution to see whether that solution is the answer could be the way forward and said and sometimes what you're going to come up with is systemic issues that actually you can't solve with that mum but you are sat in a room where the council has paid for you to be here to have this learning and conversations and you can take it back to them and say we have an issue we don't have a space where mums can take their babies during the week at a time that works for them that's accessible by bus and then that's possibly able to be solved elsewhere so it's sometimes you're not even looking at solving the problem for the individual because you can't solve the problem for the individual sometimes that problem is held in a system that you can't get around and they can't get around and then the answer actually in that coaching is you know what this is pants isn't it what we're going to do about this right so we can't solve that how do you feel about that what other options do we have where can we go from here and you start solving it but if you think the problem can always be solved by the individual because it is an individual thing and it is that personal issue that they have rather than this could be a wider social economic environmental issue you'll never know that and that often is a barrier that is flagging for people but they also don't know it either and they're also blaming themselves so we go back to a pt situation we might have someone who's really struggling with a problem and they're getting a number of workouts they do in a week and you've identified with them that actually they could do the time before their kids get up but actually within that have you both looked at who's doing the majority of the workload in the house and that includes the mental workload as well as the physical workload what else is she doing in that time that might make it difficult are the kids staying in bed has the kids slept in her bed has she kept slept in the kids bed like there are so many things around there that she may be can't solve on her own and needs the help of the family or maybe it's a wider issue in the fact that her life is so exhausting and so busy and she has so much going on that actually she's tired and adding more exercise into her week isn't going to work for her because we can't solve the problems on the outside so maybe it's rest she actually needs more of and a very focused way of achieving her goals in a different way or maybe those goals she had just aren't relevant for her right now because she's running on an entirely different level with entirely different priorities and it actually clashes with those priorities in a way that isn't solvable but if we just come out with a solution for it that fits what we learned in pt school pt school that's the thing or what we what we um what we might be thinking ourselves in that moment we are going to try and fix an individual with a solution that doesn't necessarily work for them even without the fact that we've given that solution to them instead of them coming up with it themselves and that's also a barrier that was a lot
Speaker 1sorry absolutely fine and i think that that sort of highlights issue because so often all of those things you discussed get sort of nobody gets that far because the there's assumptions made there's not the starting point is always i know the answers because i've got my qualification and we don't tend to spend the time just starting with what do you already know what what is the the issue as you see it it those kind of things and i've been on the sort of other side of this so many times where people make assumptions about me and what i know and what i can do and what i can't do and all of that kind of stuff based on my physical appearance and the thing um or even sometimes they haven't even asked what i want they've just looked at me and decided what i want from looking at me and then they jump straight into the solution from that and a few simple questions would you know uncover but i already have a certain amount of knowledge and even before i became a pt i had quite a reasonable amount of knowledge i mean you know 20 odd years of various diets gives you quite a lot of knowledge about things there was undoubtedly some dodgy thinking in the middle of there somewhere but assuming that i either knew nothing or everything i knew was wrong was definitely not the right starting point for anyone and i think that's kind of the the first point really isn't it it's if you start from that place of what does the person already know believe understand where are they currently sat on this then it gives you a better chance of working out well where are the where are the gaps in their knowledge where yeah i they need the information that i have so that they can make an informed decision i'm not providing the solution i'm providing the information and that's where we can kind of fit in a bit better because we can go with starting with well what do you already know i don't need to teach you everything because you've survived this long on the planet you obviously know some things about moving your body um through to well what what are the bits where there are issues because we know there's loads of mixed messages out there from all sorts of sources how can i start to sort of pin through and then what are the things that you need to know to make your informed decision versus what are the things i want to tell you because i know this but it's not really completely relevant at this point in time or for this particular person based on their situation um and again i think that's a common kind of kind of issue that we face as professionals sometimes it's like but i've got all of this information let me tell you please let me tell you let
Speaker 2me pass it on to you and then and also within that that that you might together realize that there are certain parts of the puzzle that aren't in control and that there is something they can do about it um and sometimes there is an answer to that and sometimes they just need to go away and work around that and it's a different time or a different place for the goal that they've got and i think like as long as we're having conversations in that way we're not going to make anybody feel like a failure because they didn't achieve the thing they set out to achieve they have all the information they can still go for it if they want but knowing that actually it might be factors beyond their control that prevent them from achieving it um and and and then i don't know what we do like that's where we change the world right uh change the world let's change the world yeah
Speaker 1absolutely let's let's have
Speaker 2you know small goals no no no i'm not about the small girls i'm not about the small girls but i i think like whenever we look at these like all those theories i mentioned before they they all have something in common and something about them that connects everything through which is that in order for change to happen if you look at any behavior change model this is in there too for order for change to happen for an individual to move forwards towards a goal that they want to achieve or to get out of a solution that they feel a situation that they feel stuck in and find a solution for it they need autonomy and autonomy doesn't come from telling someone what to do autonomy doesn't come from your answer of what it looks like to fix that it comes from providing like you said maybe the missing parts of education it comes from finding out what they know and where the gaps might be it comes from finding out there are no gaps and actually it's something that is social or environmental or economic or outside of their control that's in there and that there's maybe things we can do to work around that or to change that if that is also then within their control but that focus is different there's a new goal before we do the one that you want there's ways of looking at it but every behavior change model has autonomy it's a new goal it's a new goal it's a new goal it's a You have to be the person, if you're going to change, who is maybe the choices, who feels free to do things in the way you want to do them and doesn't feel restricted by it. And then that ties back into all of the mindset related stuff. Because actually, are you even doing this because you feel you are capable and you feel free to try out different things? Or do you feel that you are pushed to do this one way because it's the only way it will work and I must do this? And is the goal even set around a must or a should? Is it even yours? Or is it coming from something that is external that is putting pressure on you? All that matters. And you'll never know any of that if you just say to someone, let's, why don't we try this? You could have a go at doing this. Well, all the rest of my clients have had great success with. You should try that.
Speaker 1I love it when you, because you mentioned autonomy. And I think so often we see that sort of boiled down to offer your clients choices. That is worth mentioning that that's not really what autonomy is. It's knowing that what you're doing is aligned with your values and your goals and all of that. And the choice between whether you want to do, I don't know, a split squat or a lunge is not kind of something that truly gives one autonomy. And I think that's the key part, which then takes us to that other level of, well, is what I say I want aligned to what I genuinely want? And that's kind of where sometimes we find a barrier as well, because what people are saying is what they think they should want through societal environmental, even the fact that they're talking to a PT is going to influence some people in what they say they want. Because we've got this internal, I don't really want to put myself out there to be judged thing. And I'm going to preempt what I think you might think by saying this thing. So it gets quite complex from that point of view. And again, that sort of exploration phase of just being open to understanding what the situation is, and potentially asking questions that help the other person understand what the situation is, is definitely worthwhile. Because otherwise, you hit this snag where you are kind of, well, I'm doing everything, and they're not doing anything. Um, they get frustrated, you get frustrated. Nobody's happy, nothing's moving forwards. And it's not a long term successful relationship and the kind of thing that you really want. I mean, it's horrible when you're stuck in that situation. Just feeling because then we start to internalize and go, well, maybe I'm useless, because it's not working. Whereas it's been based on this kind of miscommunication along the line, that has has led us to where we are now. And I think one of the things I've kind of, because you mentioned a couple times about the sort of like this fixed mindset idea. And one of the things that I've always found quite useful is kind of presenting stuff as, as an experiment, or kind of the idea, you know, trying this idea on and that doesn't mean saying go and do it and see what it feels, but just like, you know, spend a minute thinking about it. Do you think you can do that kind of thing? Where do you how do you feel about that? What's what's your sort of response? Because sometimes it just needs that. That's what we'll know that's genuinely not going to happen. Or I can give it a go and see what kind of response or feels like something I can do, actually, I could do that. Or maybe I think I could do this instead of that, or whatever. And I think that sort of I open being open to ideas about what the other person thinks, letting go of any ideas of optimal, again, other really common sort of issue that we have is kind of this idea of, we know what's optimal, and therefore we get stuck on what you should be doing this and kind of almost asking ourselves this question of, is this better than nothing? And, you know, nine times out of 10 or more than that, probably, is always well, yes, absolutely is, it's going to lead to some improvement. Could they get more improvement in whatever direction it is that they're heading? Well, probably couldn't we all? But we're also balancing lots of other things that mean it's a case of, well, genuinely, what am I going to do? And go with that. So I think that's, you know, again, we're working with humans. So they're battling all these things as well. This isn't all about the PT. This is also about the client who's potentially putting themselves to all of this kind of stuff, and looking for a fix, and then beating themselves, when they can't do the thing that, you know, they were told was they're meant to be doing, or whatever it is, or they told themselves they were meant to be doing. It's complex, right? And I guess this is maybe sort of one of the things I'd love to hear your take on, is how do you do this in a practical setting where you can't turn every session into a therapy session? You can't spend all your time asking open questions and things like that, because ultimately, you're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're going to be able to do it. They're there to do it, an exercise session, or to talk to you about something. And you've got to bring it to an end, because we can't spend a week on every client. We've got other people there. So how do you make this practical?
Speaker 2How do you make it practical? I think the first thing is, like, when you were talking about a more growth mindset, even just in talking about it, you changed the language you were using. So you talked about how people say that, oh, maybe you could, you could try it on for size. These words are really important. So you can hear them instantly. If someone's using should, must, have to, then they are probably not making a fully autonomous decision. Something, somewhere, they feel judged, they feel under pressure, they feel like something is forcing them into making that decision. It's not fully autonomous. And so then just saying to them, you know, like, oh, you said you should, why do you feel that way? Now, that is an open question, I know, but quite quickly, you could get somewhere with it. However, I think the other really important part of this is you're not going to get somewhere with it immediately. A lot of the time when you're helping people towards these goals, where maybe they are struggling, and they have been trying for a long time, maybe they've been with other PTs, hasn't quite worked out. Part of what you have to create, and this goes back to self determination theory, is you have to get to know each other. So actually, again, stop thinking you're going to fix someone, you want to build a relationship with someone, but over time means that you'll hear what they need, and they will start to trust you. And then at that point, over that amount of time, you have now got the capacity to be able to help them and support them, because you understand them a little better, you have started to shift some of the way you use language with them. So when they say should, you say could, might we? Is it possible? You just ask these questions in that kind of way. And they don't happen in one session, because that is not achieving a goal. Achieving a goal doesn't happen in one session. But if you know where they're at, you know where you can move them to. And the other third element of self determination theory, and self determination theory is essentially macro theory of motivation. It says, if we've got three things in place, then we are self determined, which means we are capable of moving ourselves forward with change. And that's the ultimate, because we're not teachers at school. And even then, like I can tell you now, moving the kid who doesn't want to be there towards achieving their GCSE grades is an absolute struggle in a way that moving the kid who really wants to do it is not. And so we don't want to create that situation with adults who've come to us and pay us and are making a choice on that. So the other third part of that is what you've already talked about is competence. So as you're having these conversations with people, you're establishing, okay, do they have the ability? What do they know? What skills do they have? Are they capable of moving forward to what they want with the knowledge and skills they already have? Where do I need to fill in the gap of knowledge and skills? And so you can start to do that. And then you'll see that increase. And you'll see them actually become more capable and knowledgeable in that area. They might already come to extremely competent, but actually you hear them going, I should, well, what I need to do, well, I haven't been able to, and I should have been able to by now. All of that says you're not fully autonomous in this. Why? What judgment is driving you? What factor is driving you? Is it coming from your family? Is it societal? Is it environmental? Where's that come from? Again, you're not looking to fix it. You can't solve that. But the conversations you have with them can center around just changing the way they talk about this thing so that they know. And sometimes for me, with my clients, it's filling in the gaps of, well, did you know that actually part of that isn't something you can control? That's out of your control. Like this is happening because of X, Y, and Z. And they're like, well, yeah, I've never really thought of that before, but yeah, no, you're right. I can't control that. That is like the stress that I have in my life isn't something I can control. Do you notice that you become harder in yourself and you start using the shoulds and the have tos and stuff when you're more stressed at work? Do you think maybe the reason that you are struggling at this point and you're turning to coping strategies like eating more or eating the sugar or drinking the wine is because you're more stressed at work? You can't control that. Could we look at different coping strategies? Are there other things that make you feel good when you're feeling stressed at work? You start gently, gradually working them towards actually the competence in knowing that they have the skills, what they're doing and why they're doing it. The autonomy that this is their goal and that there are things they can't control, but is this really what they want? And sometimes they change their mind. their goal as a result of that they're like you know what actually i don't care about this but what i do care about is this and it's often related um and then the final thing that sense of do they trust you have you built a relationship and so i think the answer is you can't do this in a session you can't do this quickly because you're not fixing them you are not solving it and the moment we realize as coaches that that is not our job the better job we will do for people and we'll create long-lasting relationships with them which is actually better i would much rather and i have done in my career as a personal trainer to be fair work with people who over eight to ten year period even further on and not be looking for the next client then i would be going i can help you lose x amount of weight in six weeks goodbye bring the next one in like actually that is such a better business model let alone the psychological benefits of it for the client themselves that we know from research and evidence so i feel like the answer is no you can't just keep asking open questions but if you look at that the basic model of self-determination theory when you're talking to them what do you hear are they autonomous what competence they have what's missing and do they trust you and if it's not you who do they trust who can you use for them to bring them in to feeling as though actually people care about them they matter and there's people there to support them like what work needs to be done in those areas and that's how you move someone forward you can't just fix it
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