467 - Bernie Sanders

hi everybody it's james and andy here from your next favorite podcast no such thing as a fish james what do we do we are fact mongers you might say we look for the best facts in the whole wide world for instance andy did you know that zebras sometimes have spots instead of stripes i didn't know that it throws into disarray all the kids books that we have in our house you've rocked my world james did you know that cave lions were only three percent lion i had no idea about that and i still don't really know what it means but if you love facts like that then come and find us no such thing as a fish wherever you get your podcasts ladies and gentlemen welcome to the tim dillon show the book is fight oligarchy bernie sanders it is out everywhere you can get it on amazon.com you can go to a local bookstore which is always a good idea support a local bookstore and i'm sure the author of this book will appreciate that bernie sanders senator thank you for coming my pleasure thanks for having me i really appreciate it this book when you walked in we talked about it is not big but it is it is something that you've been talking about for many many years what is the importance of writing this now because you just got off uh a tour with the same name about fighting oligarchy i think tim this is kind of an unprecedented moment in american history and i think what the book touches on are issues that the media in general my colleagues in congress are not very comfortable uh dealing with and that is power and wealth who owns the country how's that pretty simple question yeah who really has the power and what we are looking at right now is a moment in history where we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had and i think what the american people have got to decide is whether they are comfortable with the situation in which one person mr musk owns more wealth than the bottom 52 percent of american households is that really what america is supposed to be about top one percent owns more wealth than the bottom 93 percent and while the very richest people in america have become the richest people in the world are becoming phenomenally richer 60 percent of our people are living paycheck to paycheck it's a huge problem and i think that most americans would hear those numbers and think that there's a big problem where you have one person controlling more wealth than 52 percent of the country which is probably around 150 million people uh maybe more and that also is a huge problem for democracy there's a huge problem for democracy um trump uh kamala harris anybody in my lifetime that has been outside of yourself that has been a contender for the presidency from a major political party is backed usually by the same groups of people they're very wealthy uh lobbyists donors the donor class is incredibly powerful um you know the landmark supreme court decision to regard political donations as speech right right citizens united citizens united thank you the name escaped me i can donate as much money as i want to a candidate and it's considered speech that's right where did we go wrong was it always as bad as it is now look money people with money always had power but citizens united supreme court decision opened the door uh in creating a very corrupt corrupt campaign finance system and you you you said it all uh right now uh in the republican party mr musk himself contributed 270 million dollars to help elect trump and then he was given the opportunity to be the most powerful person in government for many many months uh democratic billionaires play a very important role in selecting uh who the democratic candidates are and in a sense through their money kind of controlling what those candidates will stand for what they will fight for so the power of money right now today uh is extraordinary in both political parties and if we're going to save american democracy we've got to get rid of this in my view we've got to get rid of this campaign this citizens united supreme court decision and you got to move the public funding of elections so in other words if you want to run against me i shouldn't be able to outraise you 10 to 1 or 50 to 1 i do that i'm going to beat you every time all right you show that you have support you deserve a certain amount of public funding i will get the same amount of funding go for it your idea is better than not mine then you win the election let's have campaigns based on ideas let's have campaigns based on ideas not billionaires putting huge amounts of money into ugly 30 second ads for the supreme court to reverse the citizens united decision in your estimation what would have to happen well this supreme court ain't going to do it right uh we're going to have to the congressional action we could do it through congress and how would you do it through congress through legislation basically uh which says that uh you outlaw super PACs among other things that's the first thing who are the main opponents of this in congress if if this were to come on the floor i'm not asking you to call our names well i'll call our names mitch mcconnell was one of the leaders in the effort right as a republic but the big money interests love this right wouldn't they if you're a billionaire you want to pick your candidate for president hey what's a few hundred million dollars to you it's a great they love it money talks and they like that process is the is the democratic party um in your view a bigger obstacle to your ideas becoming mainstream than the republican party uh look the republican party in the last 15 years under trump has undergone a major transformation it used to be kind of a conventional george w bush i sent the right party right that's what it was uh it represented the wealthy uh corporate interest banks etc what trump has done is really transformed that party he won more working class uh votes than did kamala harris uh and he has created in the republican party a right-wing extremist party and also what worries me is not only their ideology is this cult of the individual you know what i'm talking about right much tim explain it but what i mean is i think i do look it's one thing you're a republican i'm a republican you're a democrat but we argue amongst ourselves your job is to represent your congressional district your state if you're in the senate right now in the republican party with very few exceptions and there are some they follow what trump says and they are afraid to move in any different direction i'll give you one example very clear example guy named tom tillis that name mean anything to you yeah tom is a conservative you know senator from north carolina so the guy read made the mistake of actually reading this big beautiful bill that trump brought forth he concluded he says it's going to be a disaster for north carolina hundreds of thousands of people are going to lose their health care health care premiums are going to soar i can't believe it's going to be a disaster for north carolina i can't vote for this the next day trump was all over social media attacking this guy and the billionaires were saying we are going to spend unlimited amounts of money to defeat you in your primary a day later mr tiller said bye-bye i'm out of here i don't need this crap and he retired he retired yeah because he was going to face a very very difficult primary and that's what it is right now you are a congressman you kind of disagree with trump on this are you really going to open your mouth and have elon musk in your primary and you're going to have elon musk in your primary okay we're going to primary you my guy's going to get 50 million dollars right my my my wonder is because i look at and i agree with you and everything you just said 100 the republican party has become a cult of personality when somebody goes we're going to we're going to release the epstein files and then they don't and then everybody moves on and then they go what about jimmy kimmel yeah 100 my question though is the climate in which because there's no doubt the republican party's undergone a transformation but also the democratic party seems to have overgone you know undergone a similar transformation away from working people and towards college educated uh you know credentialed you know managerial types that you know have four-year degrees have graduate degrees live in urban centers are more concerned with social politics than they are economic politics and the democratic party seems to have diverted a lot of energy from the economic message that you championed into kind of the social justice sphere which has proven pretty unpopular with a lot of those working class voters that went to trump all right let me answer you by saying yes or no okay how's that it's a great it's a great answer yeah after all i am a united states what do you expect from it yes and no is a good answer all right let's start it off 50 years ago when harry truman was president certainly when fdr was president You walk out on the street, you say to somebody, which political party in America represents the American working class? Answer, Democratic Party, right? Everybody knew that. Yes. That was the answer. In the 1970s, some Democratic leaders became very, very smart, you see. And they said, hey, Republicans are getting all of this money from corporations and the rich. What are we knocking our brains out? Why don't we do the same, right? Right. Let's start hustling some money from big money interest. And that began the process of moving the Democratic Party away from the working class of this country. Now, when we talk about social issues, I think the Democrats deserve credit for fighting for women's rights, which I happen to believe is extremely important. The right of women to be able to control their own bodies. And for a lot of reasons, grassroots activism, the women's movement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Democratic Party, we have made some real progress. You know, like 40 or 50 years ago, you looked at Congress, there were almost no women there at all. Yeah. No women governors, et cetera. Right now, you've got women who are cops, they're sheet metal workers. Yeah. They're United States. We have made progress. Democrats deserve credit for helping to do that. In terms of ending bigotry, look, I'm a little bit older than you, but I can remember when I was a kid. No great secret. If you're black in the South, massive amounts of segregation. You couldn't drink at a bloody water fountain, your kids couldn't go to an integrated school, you know, the civil rights movement, Dr. King and others, along with Democrats, Lyndon Johnson, et cetera, helped end bigotry in this country, at least took us a long way to ending bigotry. I think that's important. Gay rights. Hey, how many years ago, 30 years ago, would you ever believe that we have gay marriage in America? I mean, and those things are all 100% very good things that happen. But I do look at the last election, and I think there seems to be, and you may agree, an outsized focus on cultural and social issues that to many people are a luxury. And not to everyone, but to a lot of people, they are a luxury. Fair point. Yeah. Okay. So the point is not that fighting for women's rights or ending racism in this country or homophobia. Those are good things. But if your point is that in that whole process, the Democrats more or less turn their backs on the working class of this country and the enormous crises facing working people, I would agree with you, if that's your point. Chris Hedges, who's a writer, has described it as you have the Republican Party, which is a party about oligarchy, where you have very powerful individuals, some of them own companies, some of them run hedge funds or private equity or whatever. Chris Hedges, who's a writer, has described it as you have the Republican Party, which is a party about oligarchy, where you have very powerful individuals, some of them run hedge funds or private equity or whatever. other issues, Tim, we do not. You go out on the street and you ask people, is the American health care system working? And people look at you and say, you're crazy. Of course it's not working. Right. All right. Should health care be a human right? Should all people have health care? Yeah. Yes. Okay. That's what most Americans say. Example. My brother is seven years older than I. We grew up here in New York City, Brooklyn. Back then, so we're talking 70 years ago. He went to college, Brooklyn College, a very good college. Do you know how much he paid? How much our family paid for tuition at Brooklyn College? $1,800. No, zero. Really? Yeah. Wow. And if you go to the, during that time, you go to University of California, one of the great public universities in the world. You know what tuition was? Zero. State colleges, tuition was zero. Today, people cannot afford to send their kids to college. Every psychologist in the world tells you that zero through four are the most important years of development. It's not intellectual and emotional for children, right? Yeah. How's our child care system doing? Terrible. That's right. Yeah. Terrible. We're paying, you want to be a child care worker? Good. We'll pay you 15 bucks an hour with terrible benefits. You're doing some of the most important work in the world. So the issue that we have, you know, education, there was a study came out a few months ago. Our kids in America today rank something like 37th in the world in science and reading and writing and all that stuff. I'm shocked it's that high. I've spoken to some of them. I, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty impressive. Tim Dillon shows brought to you by mod. Mod prescribes a once or twice daily modafinil drink that can keep your energized focused. You want to be energized and focused and alert throughout the day. Here's the mechanism. Energy drinks with caffeine temporarily block adenosine, the chemical that makes you tired. It builds up. And when the caffeine wears off, it all crashes you down at once. Modafinil works differently and engages multiple pathways in your brain. Dopamine. Norepinephrine, histamine and orexin. To achieve steady energy and alertness for 10 to 12 hours was invented in the 1970s and since then it's been used by the highest performers on and off the planet. Whoa. Soldiers, pilots and astronauts aboard the space station use modafinil on high stakes situations where full concentration and alertness are paramount. It's now available at mod.com to qualifying patients. Visit mod.com folks. Do it now. Pull over your car. For a free consultation, get 10% off your first order plus free shipping with promo code TIM. That's promo code TIM at mod.com. Promo code TIM at mod.com. See their website for important safety information. We thank MOD for sponsoring the pod. Hi, everybody. It's James and Andy here from your next favorite podcast, No Such Thing as a Fish. James, what do we do? We are fact mongers, you might say. We look for the best facts in the whole wide world. For instance, Andy, did you know that zebras sometimes have spots instead of stripes? I didn't know that. It throws into disarray all the kids' books that we have. In our house. You've rocked my world. James, did you know that cave lions were only 3% lion? I had no idea about that, and I still don't really know what it means. But if you love facts like that, then come and find us. No Such Thing as a Fish, wherever you get your podcasts. MOD prescribes a once or twice daily modafinil drink that can keep your energized, focused, you want to be energized and focused and alert throughout the day. It builds up, and when the caffeine wears off, it all crashes you down at once. Dopamine, norepinephrine, histamine, and orexin. Whoa! Soldiers, pilots, and astronauts. For the space station, use modafinil. On high-stakes situations where full concentration and alertness are paramount, it's now available at MOD.com to qualifying patients. Visit MOD.com, folks. Do it now. Pull over your car. For a free consultation, get 10% off your first order, plus free shipping with promo code TIM. Hi, everybody. Such Thing as a Fish. I didn't know that. It throws into disarray all the kids' books that we have in our house. I had no idea about that and I still don't really know what it means. But if you love facts like that, then come and find us, No Such Thing as a Fish, wherever you get your podcasts. Steve Bannon, who you and him do not share many views, but you do share a few. Steve Bannon has suggested seizing SpaceX, deporting Elon Musk. Like, here's my question. A lot of these oligarchs are very powerful unless we're willing to use some type of force and some type of legal means. How, in God's name? Good question. Right? Good. All right. Let's be honest. I'm not going to seize them. Unlike the President of the United States, I kind of believe in the Constitution and the rule of law. Agreed. All right. But. But. But there's always a but. All right. Here's the but. Yeah. The but is, and let me be as clear as I can be. Let's get him. Musk has, I don't know, 400 plus billion dollars. He's on his way to become a trillionaire. Yeah. Do I think that is acceptable? No, I don't. Right. So I think we should have it. At a certain point, the tax on wealth, my own guess is most people can make it on a billion dollars. Yeah. So I think you need, right now, you have billionaires paying an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck driver or a nurse. Does that make sense? Not to me, it doesn't. And I think what we have got to do, which is, is not only have progressive taxation that say to these billionaires they can't have this extraordinary amount of wealth. What we have got to do, which is a little bit harder, is to change the culture. And that is, I respect people who are innovative, create new businesses. I really do. Yeah. They make money, God bless them. Who cares? Right. Make money, get rich, but there is a limit. I think most of these guys get their satisfaction, have creation. They create all this kind of thing. If they want money, yeah. But money as an end, really, what does the next hundred billion dollars, if you're worth 200 billion now, do you really need another hundred billion? Do the work that you got to do. You know, great people like Jonas Salk, remember, developed the polio vaccine. Yes. He gave it away. He gave it away. Right. The world remembers him as a great hero. Right. But Jonas Salk was not building an autonomous drone army. And a lot of these, a lot of these guys are like, a lot of them have given up on America. Good. They don't care about the nation state. They want to raise tremendous amounts of capital from the government. They want to raid the treasury so they can build a arsenal of weapons for the defense department, maybe also for themselves. They're all building these bunkers all over the world. How do they know that we don't know or, you know, not to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but it's creepy. Look, you're getting into some kind of creepy areas and I don't, I don't think you're crazy. I mean, who the hell knows? But right. Maybe you're crazy. I don't know. But, uh, I don't think so. But here's, look, let's go, let's go there for a second. All right. Right now, you know, I know, presumably everybody knows, no great secret, that Musk and Bezos and Ellison and Altman and others. Are putting hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars into AI and robotics. Correct? Correct. Okay. Now, does anybody really believe that these guys are doing it in order to prove improve life for the average American? Zero people believe that. Statistically. It's funny that you say that. Yeah. I was at Davenport, Iowa. Those four guys don't even believe it. I was at Davenport, Iowa, a couple of months ago. And we had a few thousand people out at a rally. So I said, you know, I said what I just said, now they're putting all this money, raise your hand, thousands of people there, raise your hand if you think AI and robotics is going to help the working class of this country. In a room of several thousand people, two hands went up. So people understand, you know, and what are their goals? What are they trying to do? And this is where it really becomes kind of creepy, in my view, and I'm not, I don't claim to be the world's greatest expert. But what you're going to see with AI and robotics is the displacement of millions and millions of people from the jobs that they have. You know, I want to see manufacturing rebuilt in America. But for a worker, it's not going to mean anything if robots are doing the work. And we want to see young people start their own small businesses, etc. But it's going to be incredibly hard when we see more concentration of ownership and when entry-level jobs are going to be done by AIC. Yeah. So you're looking at a revolution, a huge economic transformation, cultural transformation of our society. Who is determining what's happening? You have much say in it? No. No. I've got a handful of people who are really determining the future of the world. That's scary stuff. Well, I want to talk about for a minute because Trump's main issue, it was immigration. The migration seems to be the biggest issue in the UK. Yeah. It was the biggest issue in the US election. It seems to be the biggest issue in the United States. a massive issue all over the world and i wanted to talk i i i don't like the ice rates they're barbaric i think showing up to a college graduation and deporting somebody who's there to watch his daughter graduate from college or high school whatever it is is inhumane um but i will point to an article from 2007 in the wall street journal about the kreiger poultry processing plant in in georgia and what it was was after a a raid you had the owners of that company were forced to hire american workers a lot of them were african-american workers and then raise wages to around seven to nine dollars uh per hour um and this was the direct result of not having a pool of undocumented labor i think a lot of people don't like to see people zip tied in the middle of the street but they do look at the biden administration letting in 10 million people and they're suffering and their health care uh doesn't exist or is too expensive and they're looking at all the people coming in and the justifications for that that these are all jobs americans won't do the service industry you know whether it's manufacturing or landscaping or whatever it is these these these jobs because this is what i've every ever since i've grown up we've always heard that these are jobs americans won't do mark andreessen said recently that the only jobs that won't be replaced by ai are venture capital which is his job so my question is is there a position that the democratic party can take that is obviously anti people getting dragged out of their houses but recognizes that citizenship should mean something that we should have a border and that you know having laws that protect workers um is important and that people employing undocumented workers or illegal labor is driving down wages for americans all right you've asked a lot of very important questions good questions let's start off with the basic so long as we have nation states right which we have you gotta have a lot of people that are going to have to work for us right right if you don't have any borders then you don't have a nation right in a sense so has historically the united states done well on the democrats and republicans protecting the border the answer is no trump did a better job i don't like trump you know but we should have a secure border and it ain't that hard to do biden didn't do it those before him did not do it we should have a secure border period i think most people in the congress agree with that why don't you think he did it just out of curiosity pardon me why don't you think biden was more proactive with securing the border he did he did some things he was not he i think by the end of his term my memory is correct the number of illegal folks coming in had gone down but i'm not going to sit here and tell you that overall it was a good job it was not all right so that's point number one you need a border let's have a border and we have certainly the technology and the manpower to make that happen number two what happens what is the appropriate response to we think there are about 10 million undocumented people in the country today less than three percent of our population okay probably there are estimates that are higher but let's say it's 10 that's those are the best estimates i've seen okay why did those let's be clear those people act my father came to this country from poland came in they came in illegally period okay it was illegal what are most of those people doing right now are they oh working hard good none of those people should be faulted for coming here okay it should be who we should start faulting people like steve winn who run a billion dollar hotel on and exploit them right on illegal labor and why aren't we enforcing e-verify yeah good all right yeah all right anyway so you got these folks who came to this country the same reason my dad came to this country he grew up poor in poland came for a better life and that's why they dragged their kids you know from mexico guatemala thousands you know they have a better life they escaped the violence and the poverty that they're in they're here now the truth of the matter is and one of the things that i really really dislike about trump and what demagogues always do is this country as we've discussed has enormous problems and what demagogues always do instead of trying to deal with why we have those problems what are the causes of the problem what are the solutions you blame a powerless minority in europe in the 30s it was the jews it was gypsies in this country it was gays it was blacks forever you know and latinos always somebody to blame rather than dealing with the real issue so in any way you got roughly 10 million people in this country most of whom by the way work very hard and according to a number of studies the crime rate you know trump goes around you know talking about you know somebody does you know commits a terrible terrible murder trump is talking about all their lawless you know disgusting subhuman human beings look at this crime yeah truth is that the crime rate in communities of undocumented people is lower than the general average do you know that well the crime rate should almost be none right if we're bringing if people are coming into america and they are you know coming here for better life and they're properly screened the crime rate should almost be nothing well it is it's slow all i'm saying is this is not like it's not like they're criminals everyone's a drug out i don't think anyone thinks everyone is a criminal and i don't think that anyone but we we do have a ton of income inequality as you've talked about so assimilating people into this economic structure is difficult it is inevitable that some people that cannot find work will turn to crime and i mean that's just inevitable but it's my only point is this you know this is not a community that is you know prone to large amounts of crime all right so what do we do you got 10 million people here most of them are working on your point i think is well taken yeah a lot of employers exploit them yeah and by the way often these people are paying social security payroll tax paying medicare payroll tax paying other taxes and they don't get the benefits for what they pay by the way right all right but this has always been a republican issue like this is why i don't understand why the democratic party allowed the issue to be kind of to demagogued because even you know yourself you were out they're advocating always for workers rights and you know when somebody talked about open borders you rightly said that you know this is something that coke brothers would love they were huge proponents of immigration the chamber of commerce huge proponents of immigration um a lot of you know radical libertarians like the cokes and others huge proponents of immigration so when they're bringing all these people in and whether it's 10 million or more i mean there's probably i mean there's probably i mean i think there are credible estimates are a bit more but i don't think it's necessarily about the exact number but why were americans told at a certain point that they should not consider certain blue collar jobs worthy of their time they should all they should take out student loans and and you know go to a four-year university and then a lot of those jobs that were you know ended up going to people that that came into the country legally and the employers are paying a lot less money i think there's a lot of people that feel that these pro business interests brought in a lot of people's to to increase the profits of their own companies at the expense of people that saw a lot of their jobs shipped overseas a lot of stuff that's going on and one of the things um you know in my view i mean for people like the coke brothers uh that was their goal it was cheap labor you know but i think uh where we are right now i mean is you have x number whatever it is i think my understanding is about 10 million what do we do and the answer is i think uh right now and where congress has failed although there have been bipartisan efforts is obviously comprehensive immigration reform right and in my view a path towards citizenship and we have failed in that regard uh so uh you know i think uh that right now uh that is the goal uh that congress should set upon itself um i think that uh you know that is a terribly important issue that has to be dealt with tim dylan trails brought to you by mod mod prescribes a once or twice daily modafinil that can keep your energized focused you want to be energized and focused and alert throughout the day here's the mechanism energy drinks with caffeine temporarily block adenosine the chemical that makes you tired it builds up and when the caffeine wears off it all crashes you down at once modafinil works differently and engages multiple pathways in your brain dopamine norepinephrine histamine and orexin to achieve steady energy and alertness for 10 to 12 hours was invented in the 1970s and since then it's been used by the highest performers on and off the planet whoa soldiers pilots and astronauts aboard the space station use modafinil on high-stakes situations where full concentration and alertness are paramount. Do it now. Pull over your car. Hi, everybody. I didn't know that. See their website for important facts in the whole wide world. You know, listen, I think that most Americans, not everyone, obviously, but most Americans feel that people should live the lives they want to live, as long as they're not infringing upon other people. Where people do get understandably concerned is children. And I think with the trans issue, you only seem to hear, from the loudest voices, on both sides, by the way, people on the right that believe that trans people shouldn't exist, and then people on the radical end of the trans movement that believe any questioning of when younger people should be introduced to an idea or when medical intervention is necessary, a lot of people, they regard any question about those things as, uh, uh, transphobia or an attack. Most people in America don't want prepubescent children on puberty-blocking hormones. And this is by the polls, right? Because they feel that kids are kids, they're young, they don't quite know what's going on yet. And to make an irreversible medical decision at that age, if you're encouraged to do so, that, to a lot of people, feels like an infringement on their rights as parents. And, to me, I feel like it's one of the issues that the Democratic Party has seemed to have lost their way on. Because it has sucked the oxygen out of a lot of the conversations that you want to have, which are good conversations about a woman's right to choose, and gay rights, and trans rights, and all of these good things that should exist. But when you have this issue about puberty-blocking hormones for children, it's such a controversial issue for so many people. The answer is, yes, you're right. Okay. But the answer is, and it is important, and I think Democrats and perhaps myself have not done as good a job as we can in dealing with it. What percentage of the population is trans, do you think? Probably 1%. Maybe at most. Yeah. All right. Today, 60,000 people every single year die because they can't get medical care. 60,000. Yeah. All right. Today, we've got 800,000 people who are homeless. Right. Today, we're dealing with a. We're dealing with a climate crisis that could wreak havoc over the years. Right. So I think you're right in saying, I think you're right, that the Democrats have allowed the Republicans to exploit those issues by not dealing with them effectively. Well, they've also just refused to compromise. I mean, these are unpopular issues. Fair enough. Biological men and women's sports, it's just an unpopular issue. Right. You know, child sex changes, no one wants this. Very few people. Very radical people. And I understand that people have. People have trans children, and I get it. But, you know, this has tremendously hurt the electability of Democrats. But I think the answer is yes. But the answer also is, why are we talking, are we not talking about some of the issues that I raised earlier? Why are we not talking about the fact that we are the only major country on Earth not to guarantee health care to all people? Because the Republicans are. The Republicans are demagoguing this one issue because it was handed to them on a silver platter by Democrats. Well, all right. All that I'm saying is, if this country can do what every. I live 50 miles, I live in Burlington, Vermont, 50 miles away from the Canadian border. You end up in a hospital in a month in Canada. You know what the bill is when you come out? A lot of money. In Canada, a lot of money? No. Zero. Oh, in Canada. That's right. I thought you meant in Burlington. Burlington is a lot of money. It's just a lot of money. All right. They spend half. Half as much per capita on health care. Stop for a moment and think what it would mean to this country. I'm talking to the people out there. If you get ill, you end up in a hospital. You don't have to pay anything out of your own pocket. And as a nation, we end up in spending half as much as we're spending now per capita because the function of our health care system is not just to make the insurance companies and the drug companies. Do you know what that would do to America? Do you know how many people. Half a million people. Half a million people a year go bankrupt because of medically related debt. People don't go into the doctor. They can't afford to pay their copayment. Right. All right. It would be transformative. What would it mean to America if we raise the minimum wage to a living wage? We got millions of people. The minimum wage in Washington now, federal minimum wage, seven and a quarter an hour. All right. You got millions of people working for starvation wages. All right. What would it mean if we raise the minimum wage to a living wage? What would it mean in this country? If you didn't have. You didn't have to pay 40% or 50% of your limited incomes on housing because we built millions of units of low-income and affordable housing. Yeah. Well, for sure. What I'm saying is the Republicans, and I really do dislike this, if people disagree with me on health care, fine. Let's debate the issue. Disagree with me on economics. Debate the issue. But I really do hate demagoguery where you deflect attention away from the major crises facing large numbers of people. Right now, as you know, where I think in the 20th century, we had a lot of people who were in the 20th day of a shutdown. You know what the issue is? The issue is a very simple one. If Trump and his friends get their way, 15 million people will lose the health care they have today. And according to studies, 50,000 of them will die unnecessarily every year. And if you're on the Affordable Care Act, on average, your premiums will double. Which is why I think a lot of people, because I agree, but a lot of people with an election was so much at stake. We're shocked that President Biden was, you know, put out as the candidate with clear cognitive issues. And then without a primary, Kamala Harris, who was relatively unpopular in the Democratic primaries, was then the candidate. And she only had 90 days to sell herself to the American people. And by the way, she did a decent job for having. 90 days. But the machinery of the Democratic Party allowed that to happen. And this has nothing to do with you, by the way. You're kind of, even though you're a Democrat, you're outside of that. I'm an independent. You're an independent. You know, a caucus with a Democrat. No, for sure. And nobody would hold you responsible for that at all. But the machinery of the modern Democratic Party allows that to happen. And they tell us this election has, the stakes have never been higher. Democracy is on the ballot. And then they allow. They allow this to happen. How does that happen? Why is there such a cover up with Biden's mental decline? Why is there no primary, a quick one even, after he is judged unfit to run? Why is there no transparency there? That's a huge problem. And it, I think it delivered the, I mean, I know people blame five podcasters, but I think that process helped deliver the country. Again, we, let me just say this. You know, I ran against. Kamala back in 2020 and know her is not close, but I know her well, and she's an incredibly intelligent, focused person. And I worked as hard as I could. I ran all over the country to try to get her elected. I think the reason that she lost that election gets back to the point we discussed at the beginning of this podcast, and that is money in politics. Kamala did not run a campaign focused on the needs of the working class. Didn't run a campaign focused on healthcare, on economics and raising the minimum wage, on paid family and medical leave, on housing, on all of the issues that working people are struggling with right now. And I think her not focusing on those issues allowed Trump to win, in my view. Right. What do you think about? This ceasefire or this peace deal? Is this going to, this seems like maybe it's unraveling. We don't know. Well, I hope it works. You're right. Let's hope to God. Yeah, I pray. Let me say a word on this because I've been involved in this a little bit, as you may know. Hamas is a terrorist organization that committed an atrocity when it attacked Israel and killed 1,200 innocent men, women, and a lot of young people, took hundreds of hostages. Israel. had a right to defend itself as any country on earth does when you're attacked by anybody, especially a terrorist organization. But what happened for a variety of reasons in Israel, having to do with Israeli politics and Netanyahu, is they didn't just go to war against Hamas, which was appropriate, they went to war against the entire Palestinian people. And two years after that attack, you have a hundred, you have some 65, in a population, Tim, of 2.2 million, pretty small population, 65,000 people are dead, 140,000, 160,000 have been injured. That's 10% of the entire population, mostly women, children, and the elderly, 10%. That equivalent in America would be 330, 33 million people killed or wounded. All right. And behind all of that was American money. All right. So to my mind, the first lesson to be learned is never again, and this is true under Biden, we begged Biden, did everything I could to say, Mr. President, stop giving Netanyahu more and more military aid to destroy the Palestinian people. And Trump came in, he continued the same process. Now, thank God, we think a few days ago, they've reached the ceasefire. Hostages were released. That's fantastic. Prisoners were released. Let's hope to God it holds. And let's hope that the United States and the international community rebuild Gaza. It's not just the dead and the wounded. That whole area is flattened. You have Miriam Adelson, who gave Trump a lot of money. You have a lot of mega donors that have given Trump a lot of money. AIPAC's a very powerful lobbying organization that doesn't have to register as a foreign lobby. Should America fundamentally reevaluate its relationship, with Israel? I think the lesson here is that never again, well, never again should the United States be pouring in huge amounts of money to a country which is not only acting in violation of international law, but in violation of American law. It is in violation of American law to give money to a country which is restricting humanitarian aid, for example. So we have given money to Netanyahu in violation of both international law and, in my view, Netanyahu is a war criminal. The people at the head of Hamas are war criminals as well. I hope that is a lesson that we learn as a country. Well, I mean, you can see right now that this is the biggest tension point in both the Republican and Democratic Party when it pertains to young voters. Young people who can't afford a house are living in a country where they are graduating college and the job market is tough. Don't understand why billions and billions of dollars are going to Israel. And by the way, they're also understanding we're now year three or four of this Ukraine conflict with Putin. And I think a lot of them are struggling to understand why billions and billions of dollars are going to the Ukraine and why Trump is now telling Zelensky, go win all your territory back, instead of trying to force, some type of peace. I don't see the two issues as comparable. I think, as I said, Israel had a right. I mean, they're both foreign conflicts. Yeah, they are. Younger people are wondering why their money is going to negotiate a land dispute in northern Ukraine. I don't call it a land dispute. I think it's eventually will end up being some type of exchange of territory or a boy. Border dispute or something. I think Putin is a disgusting human being. And by the way, what is not widely perceived or known, you know, to the best of my knowledge, unbelievably, hundreds of thousands of young Russians have died in that war. Well, everyone, so many people have died. And that's why a lot of Americans don't want to be part of it. You know, I mean, we don't want our money going to increase the likelihood that more people are going to die. All right. I think a lot of people are making money. You know, Putin's been able to reorganize the economy of his country as a wartime economy. He's been able to evade American sanctions. He's deepened his relationship with China, India, Brazil, the BRICS nations. He's been able to do a lot of things that have probably increased his power base for now, maybe not long term. But as as it is, it's smart to keep pouring money and military aid into this conflict with the with America in the state that it's in. I have talked to ambassadors from a number of countries in Europe. And their fear is that Putin has this idea that he's going to rebuild the Russian empire and continue to advance. And if he has stopped, not stopped at the Ukraine, other Eastern Europe countries will be next. I think NATO will be involved and maybe the United States and our troops as well. The rebuttal to that would be he can barely win in the Ukraine. So the idea that he's going to go march through Europe now. I mean, he can't even finish the job there. All right. Anyhow, I think this is a terrible guy who invaded a country that should not have been invaded. And I think it has to be resisted. That's my view. At what point would you decide that it might be time to pull the plug on American funding for that war? Would you go? Would you commit American troops to fight Russia over the Ukraine? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Absolutely not. Would you give Zelensky long range missiles capable of hitting Moscow? No, I don't think you want to do that either. But I think, you know, you don't want to see this terrible war with so many casualties even explode even further. But I think, you know, the United States has got to use all of its influence to tell Putin to end this bloody war. Mod prescribes a once or twice daily modafinil drink that can keep your energy up. It builds up. Dopamine, norepinephrine, histamine, and orexin to achieve steady energy and alertness for 10 to 12 hours was invented in the 1970s. And since then, it's been used by the highest performers on and off the planet. Whoa, soldiers, pilots, and astronauts aboard the space station use modafinil on high-stakes situations where full concentration and alertness are paramount. Do it now. Pull over your car. Hi, everybody. I didn't know that. No such thing as a fox. No such thing as a fish. Wherever you get your podcasts. How do you think America's relationship with Israel is going to change? I think it is changing. Yeah. I think as you've indicated, you got certainly in the progressive left community in America, which started off being sympathetic to Israel after they were attacked. That has been completely changed. And I think the point you made about that is, you know, I think it is changing and changing. And I think the point you made about that is, you know, I think it is changing. And I think the point you made about that is, you know, younger people, under 40, under 50, no longer want to continue to support a government like that. Should AIPAC register as a foreign lobby? AIPAC has played a terrible role. That's a good question. I don't know the answer to it, honestly. But AIPAC has spread money around all over the place to right-wing Republicans, to liberal Democrats. And they have played a terrible, terrible role. In trying to win support for Netanyahu. I think the very good news is their influence is beginning to wane. I don't know if you've noticed it. I've seen it. They've established that Democrats are saying, well, thank you. Not only don't I want you, I'm going to return your donation. I don't want any part of it. And that is because I think the American people are disgusted with what has gone on in Gaza. I think I want, I want a few more questions. I, I, I think it's, it's so interesting. Again, I think, you know, you're, a lot of what you say is so mainstream and yet you're portrayed in the media as someone who's on the fringe of American politics. And that's, that, this interview doesn't seem to be the case. You're not saying tax people at 90%. Maybe you believe that, but you didn't say it. Well, I am saying that we shouldn't have people that have over more than a billion dollars, I guess, within the context of American politics. - I think a lot of people would say a billion dollars is fine. - Yep. - I think a lot of people would say a billion dollars fine um and what i'm saying by the way yeah tim is you know i talked to my european friends and they say hey bernie i don't want to hurt your feelings but in europe you would not be considered all that radical right right no and in america maybe even not you know with but so when you look at the uk for example and you look at the issues that they're having around migration some of these issues are financial some of them are cultural some of these are cultural issues different groups of people learning how to live with each other that's right and you know there is this knee-jerk reaction to call everybody a racist that has concerns about culture and i don't mean um you know people going like i don't want to live with muslims or i don't want to live with a obviously there's elements of racism to that but the united states you know when you have large groups of people whether they're it's guitar giving the president a plane or it's israel going we need more money or it's the you know the governor of minnesota jacob frey telling a somali delegation like i'd love to go to somalia one of the reasons i think zoran's doing so well is he goes i'm not visiting israel i'm going to stay in new york and he's focusing on the issues facing there are people that believe and not in a paranoid racist crazy way but that groups of people are using and exploiting not only america but other successful countries western countries and that they're going in there and they don't care about the laws rules customs culture of the country they're going in there to suck money out or they're going in there to establish a power base and dictate you know a lot of people are worried about free speech a lot of people are worried about laws that you know are supposed to be protecting jewish people but they really are protecting criticism of israel there's people that don't care about the laws that are supposed to be protecting jewish people but they worry about you know islamic groups that are demanding that certain laws be passed that restrict any criticism of uh islam how can we have these conversations where they're not where people aren't having these knee-jerk reactions about racism how can we say that we do have a civilization that believes in certain things and then if you come to it or you come to the uk come to any country you have to respect the laws customs and culture of that country you cannot turn um that country into something that it fundamentally isn't right you can't demand look if i come into your house right you invite me to dinner yes you are my host right right and i respect that yeah yeah i think that's fair yeah no one forces somebody to come to another country uh so i mean i think that basic principle is correct how do we figure out how you know because there's a lot of it you know when zoran says i want 100 million dollars to deal with legal disputes for undocumented people in new york there are a lot of americans and new yorkers that go why aren't we spending 100 million dollars and investing it in the bronx or brooklyn or areas of like it does seem to be some of the empathy that the democratic party used to have for citizens not having health care it does seem to be always directed in the direction of the people who are not having health care it does seem to be always directed in the direction of immigration well zaron is a i'm sure a medicare for all advocate as well and you know we've talked about health care in new york city etc and i think he's going to do a great job in trying to deal with the affordability issue here in in the city but i think we're as a nation at a very very unprecedented moment in that you have a president who wants more and more power unto himself and i think it's important that we stop him and ice from these terrible raids of throwing people into vans and i think that's what uh zaron is is trying to protect people who have lived in new york city for all over the country i've seen people all over the country for decades they're working hard he does not want to see you know somebody in a mask pick them up throw them into it and i i disagree with those ice raids but if if if we're encouraging people to attack ice or block i don't think anyone's talking about that happens that is being used as the pretext for these troop deployments what trump is doing is is is totally crazy i mean he's trying to say that in portland oregon they are trying to overthrow the united states government no no i understand really i understand that that's insane but i do think that zaron if he goes to war with trump on enforcing federal immigration law will make new york a pretty crazy place to live look i think his focus and the reason i i think honestly is we're in a brilliant campaign yeah uh he's a very very intelligent guy i think he's focusing on how you can govern in a very difficult circumstance i think the focus on affordability how you control housing prices in the city you make child care available to more and more people you know have you worry that he'll move to the center there was a you know there's reported that he had a meeting with david oxelrod and the obama people and stuff like that he talks to a lot of people and i think that's a good thing no i i i gotta tell you i'm a fan of his you're a fan i i listen i've been really impressed you know this is a guy what if he's toasting jamie diamond in two years what if he's in a ballroom i i don't think that's gonna well this is what happens sometimes and then somebody's in a ballroom with jamie diamond and zaron's going jamie you know when i got here i was just skeptic but you're my best friend and then they're on a yacht and it's going all over new york uh between you and me i do not think that's going to happen i don't think alexandria and i will be in new york city next week is she running for president how about a unity ticket marjorie and cortez what about that marjorie taylor green and aoc you you you came up with that idea it's it's actually my idea it's not a bad idea all right fighting oligarchy is the book fight oligarchy senator bernie sanders from vermont a consistent voice in american politics there's no one that doesn't respect you by the way which is which is rare to say to a politician go out read this book including me and i appreciate you coming on and talking to us read this book and um i hope peter teal puts us in prison in similar parts of the prison all right so that we can socialize we can discuss the book okay bernie sanders thank you so much thanks for having me of course tim dillon shows brought to you by mod mod prescribes a once or twice daily modafinil drink that can keep your energized focused you want to be energized and focused and alert throughout the day here's the mechanism energy drinks with caffeine temporarily block your energy so it's like a medicine the chemical that makes you tired it builds up and when the caffeine wears off it all crashes you down at once modafinil works differently it engages multiple pathways in your brain dopamine norepinephrine histamine and orexin to achieve steady energy and alertness for 10 to 12 hours was invented in the 1970s since then it's been used by the highest performers on and off the planet whoa soldiers pilots and astronauts aboard the space station use modafinil on high-stakes situations where full concentration and alertness are needed it's now available at mod.com to qualifying patients visit mod.com folks do it now pull over your car for a free consultation get 10 off your first order plus free shipping with promo code tim that's promo code tim at mod.com promo code tim at mod.com see their website for important safety information we thank mod for sponsoring the pod hi everybody it's james and andy here from your next favorite podcast no such thing as a fish james what do we do we are fact mongers you might say we look for the best facts in the whole wide world for instance andy did you know that zebras sometimes have spots instead of stripes i didn't know that it throws into disarray all the kids books that we have in our house you've rocked my world james did you know that cave lions were only three percent lion i had no idea about that and i still don't really know what it means but if you love facts like that then come and find us no such thing as a fish wherever you get your podcasts hi everybody it's james and andy here from your next favorite podcast no such thing as a fish james what do we do we are fact mongers you might say we look for the best facts in the whole wide world for instance andy did you know that zebras sometimes have spots instead of stripes i didn't know that it throws into disarray all the kids books that we have in our house you've rocked my world james did you know that cave lions were only three percent lion i had no idea about that and i still don't really know what it means but if you love facts like that then come and find us no such thing as a fish wherever you get your podcasts