454 - The Persistent Message of Shame w/ Dr. Jake Porter

(upbeat music) - Hello there, good listener. I am your host, Nick Stembo, and you are listening to the "Pure Desire" podcast, your biblically based and clinically informed approach to healing from betrayal and breaking free from all forms of compulsive sexual behavior. Whether today is your first day in recovery or your 10,000, we hope you get to hear a conversation that will be a blessing and encouragement to you on your journey. Today is episode 454, and here joining me for the conclusion of this series is my co-host Stuart Blades. Stuart, welcome back. One week. - We did it. - We did it. Hey, this has been a great series. It's part five of five. - Yes. - And we've been talking about how to avoid relapse in later recovery, identifying there's some patterns of thinking that might keep us stuck. Even after we've established maybe some initial sobriety. - Yeah, it's a good conversation. We're in the topic of shame. We've got an amazing person presenting. You are going to enjoy this episode. - Yeah, and if this is the first one you're listening to, maybe you joined us because you've heard Dr. Jake Porter or you were looking for more about shame, we're so glad you're here. We would love to have you here all five parts because I think these really do work in tandem to expose the false police or the things that might trip us up even years down the road. If they haven't been fully dealt with and our heart for you is that you would experience healing and freedom, not just for a season, but as a new way of life. And you're gonna hear a lot today about that from Dr. Jake Porter as he really helps us unpack the persistent message of shame that might follow us even after we've dealt with it in some initial stages. - Yeah. The versions of Dr. Jake, so you get Dr. Jake, you get husband version and you get father version all in this episode. And talk about just what a beautiful place to come 'cause all of those places are present within our own stories and our own lives. And it's just amazing how he intertwines all of those into, like what is that underlying, that experience of shame and how does it manifest itself and sometimes go sideways in our lives. - Yeah. He's a great storyteller applying things from his own life that we all hear and go, oh, I've done that. - Yeah. - That's happened to me. So before I tell you a bit more about Dr. Jake Porter, just wanna remind you one more time at the end of this series that this was, again, birthed out of the ideas of our founder, Dr. Ted Roberts. And part of the way we wanna honor his legacy is that we have set up here the Roberts Counseling Endowment Fund, which is truly an endowment that will continue to grow. We don't spend the principle, but we give all of the interest away as scholarships so that more people can afford counseling through pure desire. And if you would like to honor Dr. Ted Nayan's legacy with us, that is a great way that you could contribute to the Pure Desire Endowment Fund. So you could go to puredesire.org/give and find the Counseling Endowment page. So a little bit about Dr. Jake Porter. He is a level three PACT clinician and has undergone extensive training and emotionally focused therapy. He has worked with couples from around the world who have traveled to Houston for treatment of severe attachment injuries and relational trauma. He is a professional member of the society for the advancement of sexual health. And Dr. Jake has been trained by Dr. Patrick Karnes through I-TAP, as well as Dr. Barbara Stephens, who works with partners of sex addicts using the multi-dimensional partner trauma model of app sats. He is also a professor in the doctoral professional counseling program at Cairo's University. Jake and his wife, Kristen Liv in the Houston area and have two daughters, Magnolia Jane and Lottie Joe. And you get to hear some great stories about them today. So no further ado, part five of five in our series on avoiding relapse and later recovery, a conversation with Dr. Jake Porter on the persistent message of shame. Dr. Jake Porter, welcome back to the podcast. It is so good to see you again. - Thank you, Nick. I'm glad to be here. Love being here. - We are really excited about this last topic, which is odd to say, because it's not an exciting topic. It can be a heavy one, but maybe excited in knowing how universal the topic of shame is and people's recovery, both if we're the one who struggled or had addiction issues or the one betrayed the way that that can just trigger all kinds of shame messages. And I'm really looking forward to diving into that today. So before we kind of get into the meat of it, we know that shame is a main topic we deal with and wanted to just start with some basics of how would you define shame? And why is understanding our shame message is so important to recovery? - Yeah, so shame, I actually love talking about shame. I really do, because it is so important. It is a main topic, whether you know it or not in the recovery process. Shame is an emotion. That's the first thing. It's an emotion, which what is an emotion? An emotion is where our body is reacting to something that's happening around us because of some meaning that we're assigning it and we're having a reaction to it. And one of the things that I think is important to understand about shame is that shame is one of what is considered the pro-social emotions. And what that means is it has a relational component. I feel shame when I think about someone seeing me having done this thing, finding out about this thing. Guilt, I can feel if I've done something that violated my values and no one else knows about it. But if I am seen in that behavior, then I feel shame come up. So shame is an emotion that comes up when I've done something wrong, it makes me feel like I'm bad and I'm gonna be put out, cast out, not belong in the relationship. - Wow, that's good. - Yeah, yeah, it's interestingly, like if you look at it from a psychobiological standpoint, the underlying physiological mechanisms of shame are related to what happens if we were to see ourselves suddenly bleeding a whole lot. If we were to suddenly have a wound in which we were gushing blood, what does that mean? It's exposure. It's exposure. It is an extreme vulnerability and we feel like we're gonna die. - Yeah. Yeah, well, you just took us to school there. So thank you for that one like that. I just appreciate the reaction, like our body is reacting to the emotion that we're experiencing. And my wife and I, and on my recovery journey, like the question has been like, why is the response different? Like if you, like I hate being wrong. And so when I feel wrong, then I feel stupid. And so those things, when they're experienced and maybe like I trip and fall and nobody sees it, that is a different experience to trip and fall in a public place. And just then the perception changes because now what do other people think? And it's like, it's just, it's the flip of a switch. Did people see it? Did they not? And then how do I respond to what those other thoughts are in those moments? - Exactly. Exactly. And are the thoughts, oh, I'm so stupid, is that triggering the shame? What does the body feeling actually cause the thought? And it's not in either or it's a little bit of a both end, but it's really important, 'cause what you just described is, it's getting at how this stuff is tied to our identity. Shame makes us question our identity. - Yeah, amen. Preach. It's getting right at the heart of who I am. Do I have value? Will I have a place with you? Or not? Because of this thing I've done or you saw me do or know about me. And I lose my place with you. I've talked with you guys before on your podcast about attachment and how we are so wired for connection as human beings, God created us to be in relationship. Shame is both sort of this mixture of both pain and fear that I will not have a place. I will be put out. I'll be expelled. Yeah. - When it's helpful to me to remember that this is nothing new, you know what you said about the fear of being seen or that others might know my deepest worst moments, my sin, my choices and judge me or reject me because of that and how that leads to hiding. That's Genesis 3 and a nutshell. - Yes, right. - It's Adam and Eve violating God's covenant and it says they felt shame at what? It's always so interesting. They didn't feel shame at what they had done. It says they felt shame at their nakedness. And so they hide. They immediately hide. And that's a pattern I think we see all through scripture and really throughout humanity. Like when we feel shame, what's the response we hide? And as that relates to recovery, we know that if we're in hiding, we're not going to recover. I would say like hiding and recovery are opposite ends of a spectrum. And so shame is causing us to hide. We're going to stay stuck in some places that will prohibit the kind of freedom, joy, relationships that really recovery is all about. - Yeah. - Absolutely. And I love that. Shame is the first emotion mentioned in the Bible. They were naked and not ashamed. First emotion mentioned. and then we see that shame play out. You're right in Genesis chapter three. And here's what's, it's so sad is that shame is because I fear being cast out. So what I then do is I remove myself. I hide, I create that distance that I fear you will create if you see me. And so what ends up happening is I reinforce all those underlying messages. By my own self-expulsion that I'm hiding, I don't want you to see it. Well, now I'm disconnected from you. That's the very thing I feared. Yeah. And so it reinforces itself. Yeah. Just to make sure we don't leave this, like how kind is our father that he pursues us even in the midst of that? Like, where are you? Like, I think that is the question. Like, if nothing else, like just bask in the fact that our father pursues us even when we're in the shame, even when we're just hiding from not even him but our own selves. Amen. That's good. Jake, in what ways can shame be persistent and how might a shame message follow us even after significant recovery? Right. Shame often goes back so far in our lives, so, so far in our lives. Developmentally, if you look at this from developmental psychology, you know, children, babies start feeling shame a very early on, very, very early on, as, you know, between a year and 18 months and then even beyond, you know, my, my two and a half year old right now, she is just now in this place where I think she's beginning to be able to differentiate a little bit between shame and guilt. But right now, if I discipline her, she feels shame. She collapses. She, she sings down, right? Or not even disciplining her. She, we, as we were talking before we started recording, we flew in from Ohio last night. And when we were at the baggage carousel, you know, I'm trying to get all the bags and we've got another little one, my wife was tending to the five year old and I look over and Laudie, the two and a half year old, is reaching her fingers over into the, you know, conveyor belt. And I said, Laudie, no. And she looked her eyes. This is important actually. Her eyes get really big and she looks at me. So what, what does that tell me? It's happening. First there's this spike, right? Like a fighter, like a, like a, oh, you know, up, we're ticked. And I said, no, no, get your fingers off there. And she, she did. And then all of a sudden she just collapsed onto the floor. Boom, like loss control of her body, her legs buckled underneath her. And she was a pool on the floor, the middle of the airport. That is early on what's happening physiologically, neurobiological with shame, is there is a threat. And the threat, what was the threat there? She doesn't understand that the threat is the conveyor belt. I do. I know it's about the conveyor belt. What does she think is the threat? Daddy just yelled at her. And so she feels a rupture between us. She spikes in fear and then children are egocentric. And so it's about what? Her, she's bad. She's done something wrong. And she collapses in a pool. Now, I go over there, I scoop her up, I comfort her. Hey, it's okay, daddy loves you. I don't want you to get hurt. See that can there? Your finger, that could hurt your fingers. I don't want you to be hurt. Oh, daddy loves you, daddy loves you. Right? And she's getting her breath regulated. And what's happening there is literally my nervous system is upregulating her nervous system out of that, what's called a dorsal vagal collapse, out of that collapse. Her nervous system does not have the capacity to upregulate on its own. Now, here's why this is important. How many of our listeners had caregivers willing to stop them from getting their fingers hurt, but they didn't come over and then repair the rupture. And so now what happens? See, when I do that with my daughter over and over and over again, her nervous system is learning, oh, he loves me, it's not me, it's that thing I was doing or about to do. That's bad, I'm not bad. And so she gets that message. And secondly, her nervous system is getting reps, getting upregulated out of the shame. Well, so many of the people I work with did not have a caregiver helping them one, psychologically develop that distinction between, oh, it's not me that's bad, it's that thing I was doing. And number two, helping their nervous systems develop the capacity to come about a shame. And so when they follow that shame hole, they have a deficit. And I don't mean that in an insulting way. What, this is important for the spouses of those folks to understand this isn't a choice they're making. It's a deficit in their capacity to come up out of that shame. You mentioned that many of our listeners may not have had environments where that rupture was repaired. Right. And I think how many not only didn't have that, but the rupture continued because in that situation, many parents kind of be in parents in the way they were maybe taught or thought they should be like, what were you thinking? You know, that was stupid. Don't be so stupid. You know, you know better than that. And in an effort to like scare them away from something that hurt them, actually shame was heaped on in more ways that left the child without the capacity, just like you said, to reason out what's happening here with a much deeper message of, oh, that action is related to me being bad and that there is something wrong with me. I'm stupid, I'm not smart, you know, whatever the case might be. And I think that gets to the heart of this question of why might that message of shame persist? It's because we often think shame is associated with my current behaviors that I'm trying to unravel. And so if I've been able to stop, you know, viewing pornography or acting out in other compulsive ways, like, oh, now the shame has gone because the behaviors are gone. But then we see, no, this shame message and the patterns of it in my thinking go way, way deeper and further back than my present sexual behaviors. And it's often difficult because those presenting behaviors are what we really want to stop and alter so that the marriage can heal or we can break out of that cycle that that is often our early focus. And it's the very reason we've been doing this series because sometimes it is six months or a year or two years in that some deeper layers of shame suddenly start to come to the surface in ways that I think many of us find a little surprising like, like I thought I worked on this. I thought I've done so much work. Why is that still there? Well, it's because those messages go so deep and it is the part of recovery that I say, this is why it takes a while. Amending, changing your behaviors, that can happen fairly quickly. But getting all the way into the core of messages that drive shame, that in some ways, I think is a lifelong pursuit. Absolutely. Yeah, because when I'm in that addictive cycle, those behaviors that are contrary to my values, they fuel shame. And so it makes sense that I think, okay, so stop the behaviors, the shame goes away. But I'm not gonna say 100% of the time, but I would say the vast majority of the time, those behaviors started because shame was already there. That's right. And the behaviors were a way of coping, medicating, numbing, trying to manage the shame that was already there. So if I'm raised in an environment where I'm not being nurtured, where these ruptures aren't being repaired, where I don't have a caregiver who is helping build this sense of self that is to be celebrated. If I don't have that, and I've got this underlying shame, okay, well, guess what? Guess how I can feel worthwhile connected? Well, through these sexual acting out behaviors, and it works for a minute, but not long-term. That's right. Jake, I just still love the ways in which the Holy Spirit gives us with stories that are really relevant. And as you had one just days ago, I can get the sense that it's because you've done the work that you didn't have to take the shame that you were experiencing in that moment and then pass that on to your daughter. So you raised your voice, like, obvious, it's a safety issue, like this is a good time to raise her voice. But instead of that shame message, then coming around to where you might have the response to look around who's looking at me now because I raised my voice. Yes, I'm the guy that yells at his kids. I absolutely. And then you experienced that shame. Well, then that's so heavy, you're the pass down. And so I can look at stories and be like, you did the best that you could. And this is just some of those areas where there is a deeper layer to look into our story to say, hey, maybe at some point in your early growing up years, did you have a moment where everyone was staring at you and you didn't know how to respond and you had like, maybe it was embarrassment or something like that? Like where might that connect to that airport story? And I think that's just the beauty of counseling and group work is to dig back through and say, when you experience that, then what was the thing that you went to to try and take that feeling away? And let's go there and start looking at that part of our story because what you got to offer your daughter was something beautiful and there's so many times that just doesn't happen as a part of our story. - For sure, for sure. And what you're describing there is a dynamic. It's pretty well established in family systems theory. We talk about different roles in the family system and this role of the scapegoat. The scapegoat is the one who becomes kind of the dumping grounds for everyone else's shame. They become the identified problem. So yeah, imagine, I can imagine a scenario in which, for me, here's how probably what had gone in my head, not that, oh, I'm the dad that's yelling, but I'm the dad whose kid is misbehaving. I'm the dad who can't keep his kids in line. - Yeah. - Right? And everyone sees it. And so now I'm having to yell because of my kids. Well, see how I just put it on them? He's two and a half, but it doesn't matter. That's how quickly the brain wants to find someone else to carry this shame because if they're the problem, then I don't have to be the problem. - Yeah. - And that's often when I'm working with guys, a few times a year I do these family of origin intensive with a handful of guys and we go back and we look at their origin stories and look at the dynamics of their household growing up and all of this. And that's one of the questions that we really dig into is, did you experience scapegoating? Were you, you know, were you made the problem? Did you carry the sin, because it's from the book of Leviticus, the term scapegoat, right? It's one of the Old Testament offerings on the day of atonement. The scapegoat, the high priest, would put his hands on the head of this goat in front of the all, look, it said before the all a congregation of Israel and would confess the sins of the people over the goat, thereby symbolically placing the people sins on the goat, take the goat to the gates of the city and turn them out into the wilderness. That's shame. I'm going to be put out. I don't belong. I'm the bad one, right? And wasn't even the goat's fault. You know, that's honestly one of those Old Testament rituals that I feel like that would have some value for us today. If we could all visualize, because that's what, you know, that's the beautiful Old Testament picture of what Christ did as the Lamb of God. He took all the shame. He bore it on our behalf, went out the wilderness and those verses that talk about, you know, went outside of the city. And because that happened two thousand years ago and we all know the story so well, I think we forget the richness of that annual, you know, when they could see like, there's the goat and there's the priest symbolically putting my shame, all of our shame collectively on that goat and it's been dealt with. But yet, we still carry it because we think it's ours to deal with and don't recognize how Christ has done that. So what a, man, what a powerful reminder. Yes. Well, one of the areas that I think people really can get stuck in kind of a shame loop and recovery is as they recognize, which is a good thing, as they recognize how much their behaviors have hurt and deceived those they love, especially a spouse. And then when that person's pain, the loved one or the spouse's pain gets triggered, which can happen for quite a long time, then often our shame gets triggered too, because we remember that we caused that. So how can we navigate a situation like that, where her trigger or his pain is now triggering my shame, which makes us feel more pain? What do we do in that kind of situation? That scenario is one of the most prevalent ones that I see when I work with couples, you just outline it beautifully. And when I see that happen, and when I have an opportunity to try to help a couple change that dynamic, the first thing I do there is I say, "Okay, I pause and we have a little teaching moment." And I say, notice what just happened, because this is another way to define shame. We can go all the way back to your first question. There's another way to define shame. Shame is where I take the judgment I have about myself. I'm terrible. I'm awful. What I've done is unforgivable. I'm a monster, whatever it is. I take my judgment about myself. I project it onto you. Okay? So you must see me as a monster. You see me as terrible. You see me as bad. Okay? But now where's the focus? Back on me. So imagine, here's this couple, and let's say it's a wife who's sharing pain of betrayal, pain of discovering problematic sexual behaviors and all of this, right? She's sharing her hurt, but he goes, "Oh, I'm such a monster. She thinks I'm a monster." And where's the focus for him? Back on himself. Now she's left alone with her pain. Okay? Now, what I'm about to say next, I know that they're going to be listeners or like, that's a load of baloney. There's no way that works. But hear me out on this. Hear me out. It's just a thought. It's just a thought. There are electrical firings happening in your brain and running down your nervous system. And in that moment, what you can decide to do is you can say, "I'm having this feeling like I'm so bad and I'm a monster, but I choose her over my shame." And I actually have guys look up, look her in the eye and say, "I choose you over my shame. I'm not going to leave you in the pain that I caused you. Sit up, lean forward, look her in the eye, say it." And they do it and then it's like, "I'm not saying the shame goes away completely, but the power of the shame goes, boom. Why?" Well, a couple of things. And one is when I change the position of my body, it can break the felt power of the shame. Shame is associated with certain body positions. My shoulders shrug, my eyes go down, I begin to curl in on myself. Well, go opposite. Sit up, lean in, make eye contact, and then declare what you're going to do. I choose you over my shame. And there's this other part of you that will go, "Yeah, yeah. It's shame is in many ways a boogie man. It's like when my daughter, my oldest daughter, I remember the first time it happened where I'm putting her to bed and she says, "Daddy, there's a monster in my closet." And I'm like, "Oh, you think so?" "Yeah, there's a monster in my closet." And what did we do? I picked her up, we walked over to the closet door, we opened it up and turned the light on. There's no monster. I don't mean to make it sound like, again, that that's 100% it's gone, it's healed. But in that moment, little changes can make a big difference in the intensity of the feeling. Yeah. I think that's one of the ways that this was introduced to me was, like, we're in a room and in the room is shame and we're experiencing that. And so the counselor asked me, like, "What do you go out? Like, what door do you choose to go out?" And he listed some doors like, you could lie, deny, and divert blame. And that was, I mean, "Amen, that was me to a core in my addictive state." Wait, that's not normal. What is normal? It's not healthy. Yes. And then those shifted to more, maybe making excuses or justifying gaslighting could be in there. And I had to learn through much help of how to just be present in that room. Because when I went out one of those doors, the only thing I did, like, if I went through justifying my behavior, all it did was lead me to another room with the same problem. But now it was just a different because of my response. Yes. And I think just being able to stay in the room was something that was incredibly new for me. It was different than my family of origin, where, like, sweeping things under the rug would be the MO. I was a firefighter for 14 years of my life. So I would go to shift for 24 hours. And when I would come back, I would just be like, it's gone, right? We're not going to talk about this again. 24 hours has passed. This can't be. And that was just not the reality. And then learning to come back and be present, those are powerful things. You mentioned something that I think is really important to get back to your question that you asked me to answer it a little more fully. How do I navigate this? And that whole scenario where, okay, someone's sharing pain that's a result of something I did. Okay. From. So, my doctor. is actually looking more at developmental from a developmental psychology angle, which I chose because that's the gospel. The old is gone, the new has come. Jesus says, "Behold, I am making all things new. We are growing in Christ's likeness. We are constantly changing and transforming. I am not the man I was yesterday, an hour ago, a year ago. We are always changing." So, in this moment, if I over-identify with who I used to be, yeah, I'm gonna feel a lot of shame. What I have the opportunity to do though is as my partner here is speaking to me about what I once did, the most powerful thing I can do as show up as someone different than the person she's describing. Show up as a person who's present, compassionate, empathic, honest, accountable. So, one of my gripes about a lot of recovery programs and coaching and this one thing I appreciate about peer desires, I know y'all don't do this and you're working, you're curriculum is so often, I get guys come in and the whole focus has been on don't do that, don't act out. Don't do that and don't do that and don't be defensive and don't lie and don't minimize and don't, and don't, and don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, and it's like, okay, I mean, I agree that we should not do all of those things, but it's a whole lot easier to not do this if I actually turn toward the positive, toward something else. So, it's not just don't fall into that shame hole. Well, what's the opposite of that? Lean in, be present, be accountable, right? And as I am doing that which is opposite the shame, that heals the shame because now I am acting in a way that is affirming this new identity, not in a way that feels like I'm still in that old identity. - Yeah. Yeah, what I hear you saying throughout this answer, Jake, is how we need to have a layer of healthy detachment from our emotions, healthy detachment from our past self, where when we experience that, and I love how you said the simplicity of, it's a thought. You described shame as it's an emotion, it's something you're experiencing, and if in that moment we can have some healthy detachment to kind of hold that separate from our identity, hold that separate from our sense of well-being and analyze it and say, where's that thought coming from? And is that my old pattern? Or that is an emotion that I used to experience because I lived in such hiding and not just accept, which I think many of us have done in our struggle and addiction, that just accept that any emotion is valid. Like, well, that's who I am. I'm feeling it, I must be that. And learning to recognize things is, that's just a thought. That's an echo from my past that got triggered because of the words she's using, and rather than turning inward to my shame, I can validate that pain, I can validate their trigger and help them sit with it and go, yeah, I know. And let's, these are the steps we're taking and I hear you and I see you. We really aren't gonna be able to do that though if we just accept the emotions. Well, that's just who I am. And this is a valid feeling and a moat and thought. Well, then we're over the identifying, like you said, with that old self or that old pattern. And if we can kind of practice that, that healthy detachment, that really becomes a key, I think to staying present in those moments. - Yeah. - It does. What often when an intense emotion comes up, whatever it is, whether it's shame, although I do think shame is probably the most powerful for most people of these. But when an emotion comes up with great intensity, it's so loud inside of us, right? That it's easy to act like that's the only thing that's there to drive us, right? No, that's just the loudest thing that's there in this moment. And so what I tell people they need to balance that is you need something that's fixed and unchanging because emotions are fickle, emotions shift, emotions change. Even God has emotions and we can read through the scripture how his emotions shift and change. Let not your anger burn forever. And thank God it doesn't, right? Because he has character that is unchanging and fixed. And he never acts from his emotion in a way that contradicts his character. And we should take a cue there. Do we, we can follow that example? So I'm not saying stuff your shame, ignore your shame, you notice it, there's data there. But what are my values? What are the core values that I want to define my character? I act on that, that's like a compass. You know, my north is fixed. So when the force of this intense emotion is coming up, I still have something unchanging that I can choose to act on and what's incredible. And can really, I think you have to experience this to believe it is when you act on your values rather than your emotion. When you act on compassion and presence and accountability rather than shame, how quickly the emotion shifts. - Jake, when shame comes back like elevator music in the background, what can we do? Especially when we thought we had already dealt with it. So here's, here's, here's what you do. Instead of going, oh my gosh, it's back. I thought I, I thought I healed that. Oh no, here it is again. Oh, I am bad, I must be bad because it's back. No, you say this. Oh, there's that shame script again. Oh, there it is. There's that old story. Now what, what am I doing there? Kind of like what you were saying a minute ago, Nick, like creating that space. So in counseling, that's called cognitive diffusion, okay, where like I am not my thoughts and feelings. I'm not, my identity is not my thoughts and feelings. I have thoughts and feelings. And so just saying, instead of saying I'm bad, what's wrong with me going, I'm having the thought that I'm bad, there's a little bit of space right there. I'm having the thought that I'm bad. And then when I go, oh, there it is again. In a healthy way, I'm minimizing what it is. It's just, I don't know if y'all noticed earlier, there is a nat in my office, at least one. Yeah, I won't go off on the nats, but now it's like, I had to bat it away. I was trying not to because then we're filming this, but I was batting this nat away and say, oh, there's that nat again. There's that shame again. Mm, move forward. There it is again, move forward. Because if I, the degree to which I give it space, is gonna feed it and give it power. That's why the analogy of the monster and the closet is important. There it is again. There's that fear again. There's that pain again. Okay, there it is. Move forward. Do opposite, go opposite. Now, when you're with your therapist, unpack it. Go back, visit those messages. Look at the origin story of it. Do some somatic work around it. But in the moment, don't give it that power. What you're saying makes me think of a talk I've heard by Dr. Kurt Tomson and I know we all appreciate him, but he's got this very layered way of thinking. And when he describes it, this makes total sense. It probably won't when I describe it. But he says something like how important it is to be aware that we're aware of what we're aware of. So there's these layers of like, oh, how am I feeling about what I'm feeling about my feelings? And that's what you're describing because I think in those moments, what can happen is we feel shame again. And we're actually now ashamed of the shame that we're feeling, right? So we're feeling shame because of some original trigger, which I often think of those too, like the smell of food. That if you've committed to not eating donuts, but the smell of donuts still creates hunger, it's like, well, yeah, that's kind of human nature. And so if something occurs that creates that feeling of stupidity or shame, it's like, well, that's our human experience. That's gonna happen. And it connects to all your past stuff. But if then you feel ashamed of feeling the shame, now you're kind of getting into the cycle versus that awareness of, well, I'm aware not only that I'm feeling shame, I'm aware that I'm tempted to feel ashamed of the shame that I'm feeling. And just kind of seeing that holding it out, that ability to see it for what it is, I think is what then we can go, oh, you know what, I don't have to go that same route anymore. And I really like how you brought that in, Jake. - Yeah. I have a bad habit of when my computer is telling me, it's time for like an update, all hit like tomorrow will be great. Tomorrow will be great. And I do that for, two weeks and then eventually the computer is like no more. We're shutting down right now. And I think that function. Yes. And I think that can be, I mean, that's me and my shame life. I'll get the warnings. They're there. But instead of doing the health, leaning in, looking at what, where's the message coming from? I'll deal with this tomorrow. And then when that compounding message is there, like that undercurrent of shame can, can be there. But then something triggers that it's been like, I haven't dealt with this for two weeks. And now, and that's my MO shutdown is just go internal. Be the turtle. The shell is, the shell is my protection. And it can be in that same sense. And so just having the health to not hit delay for a day and to sit there and take each day and say, what is the message? What am I experiencing? Where do I think it's coming from? Those are tremendous steps to avoid the shutdown. And whatever that cycle is for you, mine could be two weeks, but whatever that shutdown comes. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of awareness, that sort of metacognition, the awareness of my awareness, right? That is, it is like a superpower in a way. It takes me from being the rat in the maze to having this sort of observant self that I can see myself as the rat in the maze. And I think as believers, we have an incredible resource for this in scripture. And in knowing that we can see ourselves in the scripture, right? It's like a mirror being held up to us. I'm not the main character of the Bible, but I can see myself in that story. And I'm even in Christ by faith. And here's what I think that helps is I can look at that. And I can go, I'm feeling this shame that says, I'm bad, I'm alone, I'm unloved, I'm unlovable. But I know, I know I'm raised with Christ. I know I'm found in him. I'm hidden in Christ in God. So I'm feeling this feeling, but I can see this bigger perspective. I have a bigger picture of what's going on in the context of my life. When any emotion is super, super intense, one of the things that it does for us neurobiologically is it causes us to zoom in on that moment like there is nothing else going on in the universe. And like that moment is the be all in all. And in some of them, that's a wonderful thing. You know, you're married, you're wedding or the birth of a child, you are fully present to that because the intensity of the emotion of it, right? That's a beautiful thing. But when it's shame, what's happening is I don't see past this moment and the feeling of this moment. And so being able to take a step back and go, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on and get that broader context of my life. And what God is doing in my life. And even how my life is caught up into the story of redemption. Okay, this is a moment. It's one moment. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where some of the tools like breathing exercises and meditation and making a phone call can really help us get out of that very tunnel vision. And that's what I want to get into next, Dr. Jake, because we've talked a lot about shame. And thus far, I talked quite a bit about how to respond when we're triggered or shame is coming back up. But I also want to think more proactively because we know that as we've talked about shame is something we heal from for a long time. And very often what's motivating people to deal with their shame is the presenting behavior, the sexual addiction and the porn use, whatever. And if that behavior has subsided and really started to change, so might the mode of to really deal with those underlying issues or causes of shame. So how could we stay focused or motivated to deal with shame for the long haul, even if maybe those troubling behaviors have stopped occurring? Yeah. Here's here's how I do it. Okay. What I know is who I want to be, who I want to be for the sake of my daughters and my wife and my and my God and my team that I get to lead and my church that I get to serve. Like I I know who I want to be. I have a I have an idea of who who God has called me to be. We're all called to Christ likeness. Right. And so don't settle for sobriety from some behavior. Like that that is falling so short. And what will happen? I've seen guys where that's where their mind is that's the you know that's the finish line in their in their mind. Well guess what? They in if it's not sexual behaviors, they go to something else because that is so unfulfilling to just if that's my goal in life is to not act out in this way. That is I mean that's an important first step in first goal. But you got to have a bigger vision, a bigger desire for who you want to be and who you want to become. So for me, my motivation to keep digging in and looking at my shame is because I believe that though that work is painful and it's hard that there is something so valuable on the other side of it. For me and for those that I love about about a week ago, my wife and I had a rupture. Yes. Yet we do. We still have rupture. We were due for it. Yeah. No, we had we had a rupture. And and when my wife came to me, I was going to say confronted, but she she came to me and shared with me, you know, I had shame come up. I did and I felt I felt some defensiveness come up in me and all this. Now thankfully, you know, because this stuff is front of mind because I get to do this all day long, I didn't really act on that, but it was absolutely there. And I did a little repair right there in that moment. But then I went later and I spent some time reflecting like what what was that? Why was that there? And I still don't have all the answers. I have some, but I went back to her and I said, hey, I want you to know I spent time thinking about this. And this is what you know, this is what I think was part of that was and and I made more repair. And guess what? I you know, I get out of that. Number one, I get to be a better man. I get a stronger marriage. I get a wife who trusts me more. And there's just a real joy in that kind of integrity. I'm not trying to pack myself on the back. I've got a long way to go, but it feels good. And so I keep going because there's more to enjoy. Oh, Jake, so many ways to go for myself. I am so thankful for the group work that identified what needed to be worked on from my past and my story from childhood. And I think going through that allowed me a lot of framework to then come back to my counselor and say, I want to go into this one a little bit more. And and one of those things that I get to experience now is as 44 year old me, hey, I just want to recognize I want to pause. I saw the net. So we do not I saw it in the sunlight. I saw it. We validate that. And that is there. My head. Thank you. Oh, man, so many squirrels. All right, so in my health as a 44 year old, I get to go back and parent the parts of me that needed it differently. And and that is a beauty that comes out of doing the work. And then the other thing that you said of just casting the future vision in our recovery action plan, we have it to where you identify the relapse and then what are the natural and the logical consequences. And I was years into this before I added the column of what's my preferred future to the very beginning. And I don't I think Ted Roberts talks about in chapter 10 of the white polar bear. And if we have our eyes fixed on the white polar bear, that becomes the thing that the like when they did the experiment, they're like click on the button every time they thought about it. And I want to move away from that. Like, I don't want my relapses to be the white polar bear. I want my preferred future. So like, what is it I'm moving towards? What is it I want with my relationship with God? What is it I want my relationship with my wife? What what relationship do I want with my kids? Like those are the visions and the why as I'm now six years down the road in my own journey of healing and sobriety and recovery. Like now it's a different story that I want to work on. And and I want to move towards that. Not just what am I focusing on what I not want to do. but what do I want to do and become? Yeah. Such a beautiful perspective and to have that vision of who am I becoming? Where am I going? That that needs to more and more fill our vision versus that illustration that many have used where the rear view mirror is small. And if all we do is look at it, it's a very restricted view and it tends to not work out well for what's in front of us. But that windshield is large and like look out there and see where you're going and move towards that with the help of God and others. And before we wrap up today, Dr. Jake, I wanted to get to one more scenario that I think that happens. It's a difficult one and it can be really challenging because of how it reinforces shame. So shame is this fear that if the worst parts of me are known, I will be rejected. And for some people that fear has not just been hypothetical, it's happened. They revealed their addiction and it ended the marriage or they chose to disclose to their children or adult children and now they're no longer speaking to them or they went to their pastor and they confessed an affair or behaviors and they got kicked out of church. And so they're feeling this like no shame is real because when I reveal the worst to me, people do reject me. If someone has had to walk through or is currently walking through the pain of a situation like that and I'm not just a little bit of advice of what to do with rejection but really coming to our topic today of shame, how do they counter that voice of shame when their worst fears have come to be? Yeah. Well, first of all, any listeners in that position, just like I literally feel in my body, just a sadness and a pain. And I know that that can happen. I've experienced that myself. Or in a moment of vulnerability, I share a part of my story or something and end up being rejected rather than accepted. What I would say is I would circle all the way back to that idea of the scapegoat and you're in good company. You're in good company because Christ is still identifying with us. And I don't mean to make this overly spiritual. I'm not trying to be a proponent of spiritual bypass here because there is something incredibly practical about this is when I am confident that, you know, if Christ bore my sin and shame and he took that place for me, he was outside the camp for me. And so I can go to him there, like it says in Hebrews. I am not alone. Even as they reject me, or I feel the shame of that rejection, Christ felt that too. I'm not alone in that. I am not alone in that. And that is the antidote to shame. I am not alone. Now God gives us others as well. So I say, don't stop there. Don't stop. But go find the hands and feet of Christ, the people who are safe community, the groups that we get to be a part of, our therapist or our counselors, our sponsors, our mentors who we can go to them and we can have that felt sense of worth reaffirmed. That's the last thing we want to do when we feel shame around and rejection. But it is, it's an act of faith. It is. It's Christ is with me. And I know he has people who will be with me and he will be with me through their presence as well. I don't know another way to do it. We cannot heal from shame and isolation. Amen. Yeah. I am experiencing the emotions of just the toll that that experience would take. And I want to start by saying I'm sorry. That was really brave would be one of my responses to to have the courage to be that vulnerable and that honest, that is courageous. That it didn't go the way that you were expecting or wanted. Yeah. I sit with you in the grief that that causes just knowing the weight of that rejection and that experience. And it is, you gave a plug for our groups. And as the groups guy here at Pure Desire, it is just all the more reason to find your community. Break out of isolation and come. And I think groups is one of those powerful places where you can hear other people say me too. And just the power of that affirmation that other people can resonate and understand and then validate the feelings that you're experiencing from them. Yes. Absolutely. What comes to mind for me in that situation is to separate out consequences from character. And when you reveal those deep parts of your story, there may be some consequences of others experiencing the pain of what's done. And I'm thinking of like that conversation with your adult children that you've maybe lived for decades with these secrets. And it all comes out. And in a moment, those adult children are having to kind of carry now all this unexpected pain and trauma that they didn't know existed. And their silence or breaking away may be a fairly normal, if I could even say that, consequence of them trying to figure out how to carry that pain. Now, I would also say in that state, I've often seen that that's a season and not forever if you will continue to do the work. But you can't control the consequences sometimes of what happens when others have to carry the pain of what you've done. But that is different. This is what I'm trying to say. It's different from your character. That the consequences of your actions do not determine the character of your being and who you are. And that's what I think we've talked a lot about in this episode that shame is not who I am. And if I can be in those healthy places and environments that remind me of my true character, the new nature I've been given, the new life I'm walking in, then out of that character, I can be willing to see and validate and acknowledge the pain I've caused. And even recognize some people, they've made the choices they're going to make, even if I think it's unfair or unjust, it's a consequence, it's an outcome of my actions and my character is now different than that. And that's what we get the excitement and joy of seeing it appear desire is how often a marriage is restored. Or maybe it's another season where a new marriage is completely different in how it's functioning, the level of closeness, someone's found a new faith community that engages with them and their whole story. They're like, man, for the first time in my life, I'm in a faith community right, I don't think I'm in hiding. And there are new seasons coming where your character is what will lead you. And so don't let the consequences of your actions become a shadow over your character because that's not who you are. And if we can keep those separate, then I think it at least gives us some tools to deal with the pain of what are very, very difficult situations. Yes. Yeah, that's a powerful, powerful idea. And as you were saying that, what I was thinking of is there's so much potential in the contrast. So the contrast between who I was and what I did with who I am and what I'm doing now. And when I can embrace the power of the contrast, so I'm not defined by this, right? But that is a part of my story. I'm not disowning it. It is a part of my story. And now by the grace of God, I get to walk in this way and live in this way and be this, this man. That's something I can glory in. I can glory in my weakness. Like Paul says, I can, I can boast in that because of what, what Christ has done. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Jake, we love having you on such a powerful conversation. It's always good. I knew it was going to be good. And I think it was even better than I expected. It's a great job. Remind our listeners how they could hear more from you, how they could track with you or how they might connect with the work that you're doing. Yeah. I'm pretty easy to find. Dr. Jake Porter.com is my website. And that's my handle on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube. So find me there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're big fans. So listeners follow Dr. Jake Porter, get more of his great content. And we do hope that as you've heard today's conversation that you'll recognize shame is often a very quiet, persistent, damaging voice, present and recovery that influences our thoughts, behaviors and relationships long after we've dealt with some initial struggles. But true healing can happen when we notice shame messages, we respond with self-compassion and we continue the work of understanding those roots. So whether we're navigating our own shame or supporting a loved one, it's awareness, empathy and general honesty that can really be a key for lasting change. So Dr. Jake, thanks for all of your insights. Great to see you again. Thank you for having me. Appreciate you guys. And if you're a fan of this content, please subscribe, share it with someone, write us a review, give it a thumbs up. All of these are ways that more people will encounter this life-giving content. And if you want additional information on Pure Desires Groups, resources are counseling, visit us at puredesire.org. Journey on my friends. You are not alone. (upbeat music)