#452 From Adversity to Advocacy: Jo Cooper’s Inspirational Legal Triumph

(upbeat music) - Welcome to the mentor, I'm Art Boris. Joe Cooper, welcome to the mentor. - Thanks for having me. - And I've seen you around for a long, long time in the coffee shop next door. You're nearly a fixture in that joint. - I am, they're my tea squad. - That's good to have a tea squad, and you're obviously a local. - I am. - And local being local in Darlinghurst. - Correct. - Which is where our studio is, which is where the coffee shop is, and where you also happen to live. - Correct. - And you live in a very famous building here in Sydney. In East Sydney, I guess, is Darlinghurst. - I mean, it is East, I think it's East Sydney. - Technically East Sydney, which is sort of very close to city. We're talking about a kilometer and a half. I know it takes me 20 minutes to walk from our studios into my office in Chiffley. So it's about a kilometer and a half, maybe a little bit more than that, maybe 1.7 kilometers. 'Cause I often do it, I put my backpack on and I walk in. - It's convenient. - I walk back. Yeah, it is. And so the building you live in is what's called what? - It's called the Horizon. - Horizon Building. And a very famous architect built that, or designed that I should say. - Correct. - His name was? - Harry Sidel. - Harry Sidel. - Harry. - And Harry Sidel is not with us anymore, is he? - No, he's not. But he's legacy lives on, and yeah. - So this building is a, and I should also say that you've created a movement called the Good Warrior. And we're gonna talk about that. You do have a day job. What is, let's call it your day job, it's probably not your job, but your day not job. - At the moment it's a bit of a mix. So my background's in project, was in project management. I left that to pursue music. And then I came up against a bit of a battle. And that took over my life for a solid time. I came back to do music, and then I created the Good Warrior. So the Good Warrior is pretty much a mix of advocacy and the arts. - So maybe you could just give me an outline. - What is the Good Warrior, as a business model? - A business model. So it's an initiative, I call it a social enterprise. It's a company that is created to inspire and educate people on how to no longer be silent bystanders. It's all about bullying, abuse of power, a place that I actually needed when I was going through a really hard time. - My aim is to inspire and change culture. So to create a safety space, which then equates to trust, and hopefully then justice. So it's keynotes, it's workshops, it's arts and music. So storytelling, to convey a very strong message. - And where did this all come from? I know, we want to talk about the battle you had. - Yeah, it's a long one. - Your body corporate, I guess it was, probably the council, et cetera. But where, where, tell me back, like, have you suffered, let's call it bullying in the past? - So my very first relationship ended up in a very abusive situation, which saw me in hospital. And I remember, - How old were you? - Yeah. - 18. - 18, wow. - Yeah, it was, it was a shock. - A male or female? - Male, male. - Male, who was like, I think three times the size of me. - Yeah. - And he pushed me out of a car. - Wow. - A car while I was holding onto my wrist and drove off with me for a little bit and then threw me out. - Like dragged you along? - Dragged me out. And for me that moment, sort of connects to now in a way, because what struck me the most at that moment was the people just staring at me. Nobody coming up to see if I was okay, they were just staring at me. And I hate blood and I was bleeding and I usually pass out. I was so fixated on the fact that nobody was coming to help me that I didn't even notice the blood. And so bystander culture for me started then, 'cause I know I'm very happy. - Bystander culture, that's a good term. So yeah, you're right, because people, do you think bystander culture is about people not knowing what to do or they're just gawking and don't want to do something or don't want to get involved? They get scared themselves. Or what do you reckon that is? - It's a mix of all of that. So there's fear, not knowing what to do. Also, if there's other people around you, they think somebody else will jump in. - Right. - So I'll just stay back, because surely, yeah, it's not my job, it's not my place, it's not my business, you know, we also have apathy with bystanders. You know, they may think it's wrong, but they're still gonna, yeah, don't have the time. And I get all of that, but it's a numbers game. We talk about bullying and abuse of power so much now, it's increasing, it's not decreasing. And the only way to take power away from those who abuse it is to call it out, is to take away their anonymity and call them out early, because they rely on people being silent to continue doing what they're doing, 'cause nobody's holding them accountable. - So I use saying then that in terms of observations that it's sort of beyond bullying, I think it's sort of like, as you said, abuse of power. - It's abuse of power. - So is there a structural issue that exists that within establishments, whether it be government? - Absolutely. - Power bases in organizations, body corporates in a building with lots of people. - A key issue. Do you think that people are going out and building power bases in these environments? And as you say, remain anonymous, so they're faceless, and they're not elected officials. So no one has really elected them, they've ever pointed themselves. Do you think people are actually going out building these power bases in order to exercise that power? Or do you think that they go into these positions and they all suddenly realize they've got the power? And then they just enjoy saying no or yes, whatever the case may be. I mean, what's going on in these individuals? And why are they doing it? - Look, I do believe there are people out there that just thrive or making other people's lives miserable. - And are they like professional winters? I mean-- - Yes, yes, they're insecure. Like, let's just put that out there. This is how I get through it, because some days really hard. You know, I'm definitely, I consider myself pretty tough, but I'm also human. And some days were really hard. And you, you know, I just had to remind myself, these people are so insecure, that they've created this mob, you know, because it's all about just bringing people in, telling them a few lies, giving them a bit of hate campaign material. You know, this woman is bad. How have the people that hate me or more have never spoken to me? They don't know me. And to me, that's, I feel sad and embarrassed for them, because you're not exercising any individual thought process. - No judgment. - No judgment, it's a herd mentality. And they do thrive on it, because I can tell you, I have a few Facebook pages around bullying and strata, and pets in strata, and the good warrior. I have more people in my personal DMs than on the pages. And the reason is-- - Scared. - Yep, fear. - Yeah. - I will, every now and then, and say, hi guys, I really can't keep up with the messages. Please, you know, you can post anonymously, but just keep it in one space for me. They won't do it. Somebody might, you know, put two and two together. There is a real fear base, there is a real issue. Body corporates are, they refer to themselves as the fourth tier of government for goodness sake. - Yeah, wow. - That they actually, that I've had letters from other committee members in other buildings who I've never met slagging me off, and referring to themselves as the fourth tier of government. I should know better. - So they're there to govern. If they take the view, they're there to govern the building. - Well, it's more of a dictatorship, more than governing. - Yeah. - And, you know, when it comes to government and councils, they have a big role to play. Because when we have elected officials and local, so-called independent MPs who are being influenced by stakeholders, committee members, you know, in ways of, I don't know, stroking their egos, hosting fundraisers, they volunteer for them. Then, representation of all constituents, truly, it becomes elusive. And it's a tale as old as time, I get it, but in a time where we're being told and guaranteed almost that we have heavy governance and regulations, these things shouldn't be happening. And they are. They absolutely are. - I mean, I don't want to talk about my own experiences, experiences with these sort of issues, that they sort of sit around. - That's it. - But I think we probably should get to the nitty gritty of all this. So, you're living in the building and you decided, well, did you make an application to have a pet? - So, what happened? I moved in. I was told by the real estate at some point before we had settled that it wasn't pet friendly. And that was a shock to me. 'Cause I said to them, that's impossible. I've visit people that have pets in this building. So, me, honestly thinking that it was an outdated bylaw. And so, one thing that I really took exception to is I was made out to be this malicious evil woman. - So, can we just go back a bit closer? - Sure. - So, you bought the property, exchange property, no one said it was not pet friendly, et cetera? - No, just before we settled, we did find out. - So, the agent told you it's not pet friendly? - Yeah, the agent told me. - Did you ask or did you say, "Oh, can I bring my dog?" Is a dog or a cat what we talking about? - It's a dog, he was at Little Angus. - What's an Angus? - It's a schnauzer. - Yeah, he was a schnauzer. - So that's not a big journey shape. - Nine key lights. - Nine key lights. - Nine key lights. OK, so we got a small dog. Small dog. I mentioned the dog. I mentioned Angus. I mentioned the name. And the real estate agent said to me, I didn't know you had children. I said, I don't. I said, I have a dog. And he said, oh, there's no dogs allowed in here. And that's how the conversation started. Before you settled. Before we settled. So me, my husband had a really big chat about it. We, the property ticked all the boxes. We had been looking for 10 months. Wasn't anything sinister. I said to Leo, my husband, you know, what do you think? He said, let's buy it. Angus was nine at the time. I'll put in a submission, leave Angus with my sister, because, you know, they got on like a house on fire. And if that fails, we'll rent it out. We've still bought a property we were interested in. And we'll rent somewhere else. Not a problem. Where it went wrong is when I asked the question about a meeting that was an EGM that was upcoming. And I. EGM has started to hold us. EGM, so a general meeting. A general meeting of all the owners. Correct, sorry. And you were, you were at the legal right that you submitted a motion to change a bottle. Yeah. Nothing untoward. I was told to put my dog in a bag and keep my mouth shut. At the meeting? Before. Before the meeting. Yeah. So they. We're going to dog in a bag, how do you mean? So people, the way for 18 years that they transported their pets in and out, was in a backpack. All right. In a trolley, shopping trolley? Yeah, yeah. So when I found out. Sort of, sort of, tickiously, bringing it down, yeah. I'm thinking, this is arbitrary. This is crazy. So we got grown adults smuggling their pets in. And I'm thinking, this makes no sense. So I said to them, surely, when they finally got back to me, I said, surely, this is not mature behaviour. This is a strata manager. Yeah, the chair, the chair and the secretary. Chair of the body corporate. Of the body corporate. So the chair and the secretary, and they were the ones to basically tell me, if I put the motion forward, I would potentially become a target. And I don't know if this has come through. I detest bullies. I detest them. And I said to them, what do you mean I'll become a target? Is that a threat? No, it's just a fact. OK. So you're aware there's pets in the building. Oh, yeah, there always has been. OK. I'm going to put that motion in because it's illegal right. And I left it at that. A few weeks after that, I was coming down the back gate, a man opened the gate. I said, thank you, we off the premises. With all that dog. Angus was not in yet. I thought I was trying to do the right thing. And he looks at me and he says, excuse me, with utter disgust. Looks me up and down and I said, oh, yeah. He said, are you that person who's trying to change our culture and community? And I said, are you talking about-- I'm assuming you're talking about my motion. And the meeting hadn't happened yet. Something you OK, words got around. And I said, yeah, that's me. I said, but I'm actually just trying to reflect the reality of what's going on. Well, you see, we've rid ourselves of millionaires. And you, you stupid little brown girl. What? You'll be gone in a week. Is it that? He said that. What the hell? He said it twice. I can tell you, like I'm saying this to you now. And my body right now is shaking because there was this-- there was this disbelief but also this anger thinking, wow, if this is the reaction to a simple question, there's something major going on in this building. But he extended the dog, the change of ocean relation to pets or the motion to change the bylaws and relation of pets. He extended a call in you, one, stupid, two, little, three, brown girl, or brown and girl. And girl, because it was never about pets. Let's put that on the table. This was never about pets. They knew there was pets in the building. They were OK with pets in the building, as long as you put it in a bag. This was not about pets. This was about abuse of power, pure and simple. Yeah, was this individual on the body corporeal? It was a connection to the body corporeal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they have their-- They have their little click, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been to that process, I know it's like, yeah. And it's happening all, not only in New South Wales, I get messages from New Zealand nationwide. I got an email from Canada, a few months after I won my case. It wasn't the easiest road to go-- How did you feel? How did you feel then when you were confronted with that sentence and also that-- Oh, that sentence. That's interesting. Disgusted. Really disgusted. Because-- Discurred? No, no, no. That was the moment I can tell you. I got over the shakes. I called my husband, he was working in Darwin at the time. I told him what was happened, what had just happened. And I said to him, if these guys are so arrogant to take me on a legal path because there was already wind of that, I said, I'll take this all the way, you know? Excuse my language. I said, game on motherfuckers. Yeah, totally. Hello, I'm glad-- I mean, I don't know what I-- My response, I don't feel like punching him in that. I didn't say I would punch him in the head for those who are listening. But I said, I would feel like punching him in that. I will constrain myself. And can I tell you, the most exhausting part about all of this, the most exhausting, was the restraint in my response and my emotions. Because I knew the moment I responded. I was called-- that's bad, right? I've been called low class. I've been physically assaulted by a woman. I've been spat at. I've been called all in sundry in this building. In this process. In this process. And until now-- Spat at in this series. Yeah, please do nothing. Yes. Yep. But these are people who are supposed to be wealthy people. It's a period for me. We're wealthy people alone, you know, like high order people alone that have something in a very famous building. Spend a lot of a day. They're probably professional people. Or at least got good incomes to afford these things. Yeah. That's unbelievable. How could they be so emotional to let their emotion? And so reckless to allow their emotions to run away from such that they're actually-- Blindly rage. Well, what about though? About this little person who they deem way beneath them, having the guts to challenge them. So if I take it back to bullying and abuse of power, they rely on intimidation. They rely on beating you down and you go, ooh, maybe I should-- you know, this is a bit too scary. It's a bit much. It's a strategy. And unfortunately, I've been there. I know what a narcissist is. I know what a bully is. I was dating someone who I loved, who put me in hospital. I know the patterns. And I really, with the good warrior, just going back to that for a minute. Something I teach in that is the connection between repeated disrespect that leads to bullying, that leads to domestic violence or violence in general, that ultimately, in a lot of cases, leads to tragedy. Because what's happening is their brain's getting rewarded continually for their behavior. Correct. And because it's like in the case of bullying and/or abuse of power, a lot of times it's behind the door. So it's also not seen. It's not visible. And so I get away with what I do, which no one can see anyway. And I get the outcome I want. Personally, I want. So these are our personal opinions. Why wouldn't-- I just can't get my head around a bit. Why wouldn't they want a little, a little small dog? Probably a cute dog, but a small dog just living inside your apartment. It's not right there. It's doing a crap in the wall way or something like that. I just understand why wouldn't they want a dog in the building? Because it wasn't about the dog. It was the fact that these people have never been challenged. For 18 years. So how dare you challenge me? How dare you? And who are you? Yeah, you haven't even moved in yet. You just moved in. Yeah, you're a newbie. And you're a little brown girl. Yeah, you've got no rights. You don't belong here. The lady that called me low class, it couldn't be more cliché. I had to laugh. She was wearing pearls, and she was actually touching them while she was calling me low class. I have to say a funny story. I had a similar experience, and I won't say where, but many, many years ago, like a many years ago, I bought a very expensive apartment in a pretty well known building. But in order to part of their by-law system, and it's a bit more complicated this, but I was just as simplified, was that you had to go and have an interview with the body corporate. To buy. To exchange to settle, because they could stop you from settling. So I actually had to have an interview. OK. And it was around 20 years ago. Anyway, so much younger than I am today. I was in my mid-40s. And in those days, I used to-- everybody was wearing suits. Yeah. And in those days, I used to wear a dark suit with a dark tie and a white shirt and a pair of dark shoes. That was my dress, because I was working in an environment where I had to dress that way. So I was asked to come in for the interviews during the day, come in for the interview, so I came straight from my work to the interview. And at that time, in terms of those sorts of clothes, that was considered cool. I didn't have a colored tie. I had the same color tires my suit. That was considered a cool way to dress. I actually was, at that time, I was an ambassador for Georgia Money. So they dress me. Yeah. I'm not some sort of dude who understands this sort of stuff. I'm not a fashion person, but that's how Georgia Money wanted to dress me, and I wore their stuff. And I did that for a number of years. And when I met this small group of people who represented the body corporate, they're all much older than me. And nobody, my age, lived in the building. Nobody, my age, had kids, so I had four kids, young kids. And it was just-- I wasn't married, it was just me and my kids, and I was, they asked me how I was going to settle the property and I said, "I can pay cash," and they said, "Hold on a minute, I had to actually get my accountant to send details of my bank account and all that sort of stuff to make sure I could afford it, and I could afford the quarterly fees, you have to pay all that sort of stuff," which is fine, and I was in a fortune-teller position, no problems. The guy, the old guy, the chairman guy, said to me, he said, by the way, he said, "If you've been to a funeral today," I said, "No, why would you think that?" He said, "All the way, you're dressed." He said, "You've got a dark suit on and a dark tie," and I was looking at him and he had a vest on, like a three-piece suit type with a vest and a tie, you know, it's a date on me, he was retired, I don't know what he was wearing a suit for, but, yeah, and I thought, I mean, he thought of himself, they're looking down on me. And the person that, whose apartment it was, was a very famous person in the entertainment industry, who had been effectively kicked out of this building because of something that he had done, which was against the bylaws, so they effectively, under the bylaws they could force you out, they could force you to sell, and that he had done something they didn't like. And this dude is the guy who, you know, his apartment, what it was, was a pretty crazy sort of person. He was globally known, well known, and was always pushing against the establishment, etc. And I guess, yeah, me too. And in fact, there's a book written about this building, and they've been a whole chapter on this particular individual, and I just want to protect people, so I'm not going to say they were, but they just assumed as a young guy who was me coming into this expensive building that they're like, how could he afford it? Who was he? Yeah. Why is he dressed this way? And so I sort of have experienced it not to the extreme that you have, that sort of sense of who are you coming from, you know, the out west, they didn't call me brown, boy or anything, but at the same time, they were talking about the way I dressed. Yeah. It's derogatory. Totally. And they're making a judgement on me based on what my clothes were. So I found it quite amazing, but this is like, it was probably 25 years ago now, it was a long time ago. I can't believe that sort of thing happens still today. It's getting worse. It is getting worse. If you were to raise it. So your experience, given your business, and what you do, your saying is getting worse, I can't believe it. It's absolutely getting worse. lead, everywhere. Communities work home. Is it older people bullying younger people? Do you think? So I- Is the establishment the so-called interlational elite? Oh, totally. Atletism. These people who, by the way, we're not talking about left or right apologists, we're talking about the elite. General. This is a general. But they consider themselves elite. They consider themselves superior. Yeah. Yes. And they've got this sense of entitlement and privilege. Oh, fuck them. Yeah, fuck them. Totally, fuck them. Yeah, fuck an item. And they ruin people's lives. And they across the board. So like, did you get any assistance from assistance from the city council or city council? I got assistance mark from no one. I, if you think about the changes that have happened on such as, on the scale that I delivered, you know, there's usually you get some people with profiles getting behind you, some corporations are established for you, you know, I change not only state law. It's across the nation. So you won the case. I won the case at the Supreme Court. So the case was about the strata title's legislation. Yep. So it's this only applies to strata title buildings. Strata schemes and property. Yep. Yep. And it has- What was the outcome of the case? So the outcome of the case was about bylaw. So it was well beyond pets. Yep. And this is, can I just take you- One was generally. Generally. So what I loved, and I really want to put this out there because I think it's a strong thing. I embrace being underestimated. I love it. Because the people that underestimate you generally, they've just demonstrated how lazy they are in trying to understand what makes you tick, what drives you. And that's what happens. It's happened to me most of my life. But with this case, it was so predictable. They had no idea what I was fighting for. Even the media made it all about Angus, which was great. They won't mean about it. But it was like, oh, you know, she's fighting for a cute little dog. Meanwhile, I have these, you know, people emailing me or on the street. Oh, you know, I've had 30 years in law. We're going to let the Supreme Court deal with you. Great. That's also what I'm hoping and counting on. You know, they were so blind with rage. They couldn't see past. There was no rationality. They totally missed the whole fact that I wasn't fighting just for Angus. I was changing the whole damn system because for me, this wasn't about a dog. It was very evident early on. It wasn't about Angus. It was about an abuse of power. When I went, I went to see an email as many politicians as you can imagine. I sent them videos and photos and emails of my abuse trying to demonstrate. This is not about a dog. Didn't even step up. No, no, not one. Not one. What about council? Council came on board. Surely Clevermore would step up and say, look, I'm going to fight for this woman. No, no, she didn't. The only credit I will give Clever was through Christine Foster. So I started the first e-petition in New South Wales because we were going through COVID and we only had the paper petitions. I lobbied Glattis at the time. We got e-petitions in. I put the first one in. I needed support with this petition. I needed 20,000 signatures. What's that mean? If anyone can create an e-petition, you get 20,000 signatures and they have to bring it up in Parliament. My strategy was this. I can say it now. This is what I mean by being underestimated. I had three things going on. I had my own a petition. I had the court system going, which they initiated. A lot of people accused me of initiating court. They took you to court. They took me to court. I tried to warn them. I actually said to them, let's not go down this path, but anyway. So they were seeking your declaration? They were seeking to have me basically. By the time we got to court, so there was a few years in, I did bring Angus in. Yeah. Openly though. I said to them, I'm bringing him in. This is ridiculous. So the court case, and then I had my eye on any bill that was being presented in Parliament to put an amendment in, to try and get it in that way. Because I thought, I didn't know what was going to come through for me. I was getting no support. Me and my husband were funding this. You can only imagine we our legal bills started in the last quarter of 2015 and the first one. And the last one was, I think the first quarter of 2022. Wow. Do the maths. It wasn't cheap. I had no, you know, somebody bankrolling me as a rumours went around and it was crazy. So I had to have some strategy going on, which thankfully I'm good at. So I had all these things going on. We didn't get the 20,000 for the petition. Christine Foster did take my petition to Council. So I missed Christine Foster. She was a Councillor. She was on the Council at the time. A voted member of the Council. Yes, voted member of Council. And, you know, I'm very thankful for her because she did take it to Council and Clover did vote in favour of that. However. But it's a state legislation though. Isn't it a state government legislation? Yeah, but it was just about getting, for me, it was about getting that petition out there to as many people so I could get the signatures. It was token. And I'll tell you why. I emailed her after saying, now, I think the City of Sydney's page had something like 200,000 plus followers or members. She had shared it on her own page, which had way less. So I emailed her or contacted the office of current member. I said, I'd really, really appreciate if you could push this out a bit further. I need 20,000 civic niches. That was the end of that. She never did anything else. And I mean, you can edit this out, but her and Alex Greenwich have a very strong alliance. And he was not supporting me in any way, because he has a strong alliance, unfortunately, with my building. Right, is he live there? No, they held fundraisers for him. And this is all public record. Yeah. Are they volunteer for him? I went and saw him three times. And my opening statement to him was, I know you have a relationship with my building, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that I'm one of your constituents. And I need help. And he basically went around telling people he doesn't have to support me. So he's a local independent in MP state member for this is area. Sydney. Yeah. Yeah. MP for Sydney. Right. Yeah. And he's he is the standing independent member. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So we don't have a label or a little. We have an independent. We have an independent, so called independent. As I like to say, and I'll stand by that and I've put it all over publicly. I have no respect for him because he had multiple opportunities to step up. And a lot of people will say, well, he doesn't have to support you. Absolutely. He does not have to support me. Be honest about it. Because when I won, I tell you he was one of the first to get involved and say how he was responsible for fixing pets in strata. And I thought, you have got to be kidding me. You have actually got to be kidding me. I actually wrote to his office to say, where can I send my legal bills if he was responsible because I didn't remember him sitting next to me in the Supreme Court. I'm not drawing checks. Not drawing checks, not doing anything. And my issue with that is I am somewhat of a resilient personality. And when I'm asked why I fight cases like this, Imagine, just imagine if this was the response somebody got to an innocent question because I didn't come at it with any malice. Imagine if it was someone who was just on the knife's edge, the damage that this behaviour does to people, I know first hand. Traumatic. Traumatic. Traumatic. And sometimes leads to tragedy. Man, I tell you. And I'm sick of it. Yeah. I'm just sick of that. And then you're calling it out. So what was it? I'm going to go to the break. But what was the outcome, Joe? The outcome was not any relation to pest, but what is it? What is it? So they have restrictions. There are restrictions on what bylaws any scheme can make. Right. So that's what should have happened to begin with because the strata legislation is very clunky. It's all over the place. And this will be ripped up and started again with people who've got some brains. But basically, just because the majority voted for it, which in my case it wasn't, it was the majority who turned up to vote, which was the minority. It doesn't matter if the majority vote for it. If it doesn't meet regulations and broader laws, it's not a law. It's not a bylaw. Right. So just so I'm clear on this, a bylaw can't be made in relation to how you live your life in your home. Inside your. In your building? Yeah. It cannot restrict your property rights. Right. Which is sort of makes sense. So that's, sorry, going back to where I did get sidetracked. Sorry. It's so much to this story. When I said they weren't paying attention, what I was fighting for was property rights. Yep. So that was my angle. I'm going to go property rights. I know we have property rights. People think that just because you're in strata, you give up your property rights. And thank God my judgment was very well written. Thank you to the three judges. unanimous vote. You can live your life. Just don't be disrespectful to your neighbour. Right. Really? It's, that's the crux of it. And that makes sense too. And I'm glad to see the court system brought out some common sense. Thank you. Let's go to the break. I'm going to come straight back and now I want to talk about your good, the good warrior business. Thank you. We're back here. I'm doing a job. Cooper. She just took us through how she got the, the good result in relation to the amendment or the interpretation of the legislation by the court system relation to her petition to the court. It's been that the bylaws should not be allowed to exclude what you do with inside your property. In her case, it was having a dog, but it's a broader, a much broader principle. And I guess what's really important out of all this, Joe, is that sometimes you've got to stand up. Not sometimes. It'd be great if every time that if something that was a good discussion, a fair debate, that you could have a fair debate without being bullied from one side. And maybe that's sort of what you're talking about here when you talk about the good warrior, your mission and being the good warrior. It's about, you know, you do talks about this or stuff, but it's about people being out of prosecute, what they truly believe in in a proper, valuable debating environment without being sort of stood over or outvoted in a stitched up way by people who have their agenda are already determined. Absolutely. That is absolutely right. And there's no, you know, because in a body corporate situation, for example, there's no judge. No one's there. You don't have an independent arbiter sitting there, an arbitrator, I should say. You don't have an independent arbitrator. It's a, they have already made the decision and you put up your point of view, but they said, no, sorry, it's not going to happen. I know that's sort of, and because it's funny, you know, how this works and society works this way. But it's funny. People sort of appoint themselves as politicians in these environments. And because they've got agendas, and a lot of times agendas just about power. I want power in this place to make sure that this place is run the way I want it to be run. It's not a democratic system. Not at all. There's no democracy whatsoever. No. But how much of that is a response to the fact that a lot of people in Australia who live in strut environments are at pathetic and they just say, oh, fuck it, I don't want to vote for this. I don't give a shit what they do. Whatever they want. I mean, is there a bit of people taking advantage of the apathy of all the other members of the building? Yes, absolutely. Apathy is a big part of the problem. So we all, we always know the people are using power. We usually criticise those holding them to account. And we ignore the middle. And that's where I focus on. And the middle is silent by standards. I call them the, these are the people stood by what you get dragged along by the car. Absolutely. They're the majority. Yeah. They are the silent majority who sit there. And my focus is on them because of multiple reasons. I want to mobilise them to one believe in the power of their voice, to speak up. Because like most things, it's a numbers game. This situation could have been sorted out. If most people actually turned up and said, you know, this is ludicrous, you're spending our strut and money. Why did they didn't? Fear. Right. The intimidation of this building and many, not just this, many, it's mind blowing to actually believe this is happening in Australia to be honest. The fear of being outcast. I had a man who I was with Angus and I walked into the lift and he looked at me white man in his 50s and I say that for a reason and he looks at me, you know, you have my sympathies. And I looked at him and I said, I don't want your sympathy. I want your vote. Like just give me a piece of paper and you went, I don't want to be marked. And at that point, you know, it was easy and I'm trying to avoid an appeal. So I had won my first case and they appealed the set, that, that decision. And I said, I'm just giving my vote, you know, it will save us all a lot of time and money. He said, I don't want to be marked. And I looked him, I said, are you joking me? You're a 50 year old, mid 50 year old white man in a building that is so racist. You're scared of being marked. What do you think I'm going through? He just looked at me and he goes, I'm sorry, I just can't. And that's the mentality of a lot of them. The others. Well, because he's got, there's nothing in it for him. No, but can I tell you about this man a week after I won, he bought a dog. And he can't look at me in the eyes at the moment. I've not said anything, I've not made him feel terrible, but he just can't look at me. And I think to myself, so here I am, being made to feel less than in this world, my mother stopped coming to visit because, you know, she's also, she's darker than me. And she's very timid lady. And you know, they would stare her down and make her feel disgusting. So she stopped visiting. So what, what national are you? North African. So my mom's Egyptian, my dad was Sudanese. Right. That's why you're brown. Yeah. Well, they, what they call today, brown. Whatever. You know, I love my skin. I don't, I don't care. But you know what's going on? I, I, I've had journalists right about the color of my skin. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, uh, Uber Tand. I don't even go on the sun. It's like, I never go on the sun. I'm going to go on the sun if I go for run or something. Yeah. You know, sit around somebody going to show them that I'm too, wait to hope for that stuff. And I'm also too vain. I'm too vain. I don't, I don't want my skin to be ruined as bad enough as it is. But, but I, I had someone write about that in, in a, in a very important publication in Australia. Like I just couldn't believe someone would actually say that about me, but, um, that's what matters now. How you look. And by the way, you know, like, I could have taken the person to task with their, um, you know, with the executives of the organization for, uh, a former racism. Yeah. Absolutely. Or at least having a government about my skin color in a public environment. Yeah. Um, and you're right. That sort of stuff does happen as much as incredulous as, as it seems. Um, that sort of stuff does happen as probably happens more often now, even though we all talk about, uh, you know, we do our, our, um, sort of signalling, you know, where, inclusive and, you know, diverse and all that sort of stuff. Sometimes the people are saying that are actually some of the worst people. 100%. I agree with you on that. That's just 100%. Yeah. They're full of shit. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we don't sort of let everybody exist, you know, in a nice, happy, peaceful, enjoyable environment. And I agree. Like, you know, you're right. What are doing some of my apartment? Fuck off. It's my, my business. Yes. Unless I'm, unless I'm consistently annoying you, I'm not talking about the one-off parties because we have to leave, right? We, it's, it's, it's life. You, you know, that moving into a close, um, community. If it's consistent, and I stood up in a meeting and I said it, you know, what are we fighting for? No, you know, let's just sit down, I, I gave them so many opportunities with a better outcome for them than they have now because now we have this mountain, uh, what are they, Burmese dogs, the big. Yeah. We've got one of them in the lift. He made my day the other day. They're cool. They're cool. But a lot of those don't bark as much as smaller dogs by the way. Absolutely. Absolutely. So now we have all these pets that have come out. We've got new dogs, you know, and they are just on edge about it, but it's like I offered you so many solutions, weight, restraints, you know, type of dog, they don't have control of that anymore. Yeah, just, you know, it's funny, you know, sometimes I, I wanted to myself, there, there could be just one person. Yeah. Who doesn't like the idea? Absolutely. But that one person has power or contacts within the organization makes the decision. Yeah. And it could have politic, and they could have political connections as well. Yeah. And they could actually turn the tide off for a whole building, yeah, in the case of where you're talking about 300 people. Yeah. So it could be just one person who doesn't like either the color of your skin or doesn't like the fact that you, the person with your skin color has a dog or doesn't like the fact you're a female with a dog or doesn't like the fact that you're a female and you're going to stand up to them. Doesn't like that fact. Yeah. And they're prepared to influence the outcomes for the whole, for the whole community. Yeah. And even worse than that, I'm prepared for that strata. team that that's trying to, um, scheme to spend money, mm-hmm. Yeah. That could have done some fighting you. Yeah. Yeah. And I was fighting myself. Yeah. You have to contribute to the same thing. But like, sometimes it's quite unbelievable that one person or two people gang up together, going over coffee and say, let's get this bitch. Yeah. Um, let's get the body corporate to take her on. By the way, it happens in councils, it happens to say together. It happens across the board. Absolutely. Um, what does the good warrior say to that? Enough. No. We have to get better at calling it out. We have to. And when I say that this culture thrives because of silence, I'm not, it's not an exaggeration. They rely on people being silent. It's in everything. People that, you know, physically violence, domestic violence, you know, they get someone to know about it. Someone knows. Yeah. Think about let's go back to, okay, I'll give you my example, my first boyfriend that put me in hospital. It was only after he put me in hospital that people were like, yeah, never really liked him. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Thanks for telling me now. It's too late. So, and we have this habit in society. You know, we wait for things to be either popular or a crisis to jump on board. Or we wait for something, or somebody to be, you know, a high profile before we get behind them. Or we get asked to these days to take a side. Correct. And I, and say someone like you, if it's not you, if it's just a, yeah, someone who's a little bit more mild and meek example. They don't ask anyone to take a side. Whereas the people who are powerful. Yeah. So I need you to take a side. Absolutely. And then people should have, I feel compelled to better take some side. Yeah. So this business is a taking sides. Only works in favor of the people who are the most powerful. Who are pressing? The people who are most powerful are the ones who get the side. The side takers. Absolutely. So they've got the bystanders. You talk about the bystanders right at the very beginning. Yep. They, then there is somebody saying it goes on to those bystanders says, I, out of the 25 people there, I want you to take a side. It's usually the people, the people without the power. Never ask that question. No. So your mission is to get people to take the side of the, the less powerful. Yes. And become more powerful. Become more, look, our, our individual voices. I, I will always say this. I, I, one thing that shocked me through this process is even people that were sort of on the fence, you know, you're one person. I just give it a rest love. Okay. Since when did we give up on the power of our voice? You know, it all starts with one. People power. Like sometimes it annoys me, but we have given up on the power of people. Yeah. We have. Absolutely. And I want to bring that back. Yeah. No, I 100% I, I'm, I'm, I'm all for that. People power like to me is the most important thing. Then we end up. Unfortunately, the world is getting. There's two few groups. Only a few banks. Only if you're insurance companies. Yep. Only a few binoculars. Only a few phone per companies. Only a few blah, blah, blah. Everything. Everything. And they're getting more powerful and more powerful and more powerful. And then you can, and in micro systems like, for example, where you live, it's the same sort of thing. So there's a powerful group in your, in your building. Yeah. And, uh, and this, and by the way, this, this process cuts across just about everything that we do in our lives. Yes. And unfortunately, um, the people are getting pushed down. Like you wouldn't believe you, I, I have a woman that I was dealing with a few months ago. I, I try and help as many people as I can. And it, it gets hard. And that's why I'm the good way. I'm hoping to expand as it was biggest possible. For me, I'd like it to go global. I'd like it to be a place where somebody's so intimidated. And they think I have nowhere to go. I know the good worry if they'll, they'll help me. That's, that's my aim. Because we have in our society in our community, we have people walking around that could achieve so much if they just had a little support and just a little encouragement. And they would give back to the community 10 fold. But they just don't have that support or opportunity. And they've either been downtrodden, they've been intimidated. You know, we have the power to change our politics, our, our society. We have that power. One thing that I cannot believe people said to me is, oh, how do you contact government? Can you speak to politicians? Yes, you can. You can challenge them. First thing there's numbers in it. Yeah. And that was a real wake up call to me because I'm thinking, oh, people really don't know that you can challenge authority. It's, it's your duty to challenge authority. I mean, that's how I was raised. My father was, I'm very much my father's child. And I do remember something that he said to me, which is why I, I have these set of principles in my life. And it makes it really easy to make decisions. It doesn't mean the path or the decision I've made is the easy one. But it's do what's right, not what's easy. And it was something around, you know, so he was Sudanese and I don't know if you know much about Sudan. Usually most people don't. It's not a great country. But he has memories when he was young of being okay. And he said at one point, I cannot remember the whole situation, but he said, you know, Sudan didn't happen overnight. It was because people didn't challenge anything. And that has forever stuck with me because, and I have, and by the way, I've always been like this. I cannot remember being any other way. You know, in school, if somebody was getting bullied, I would jump in down the road here. There's lots of issues. I don't think and, and don't do that, you know, you do look at the environment you're in. But I am very reactive to helping people when they're being hurt. I, I, I, I'm a very passionate and intense personality. And sometimes I'm criticized for that. But I believe that's the same passion and intensity that also helps people. So you've got to stand for something. So what are you going to, so the good warrior, I'm going to wrap it up. Yeah, we're sorry. But in terms of the good warrior, what would you like to say about people who are listening to this who maybe have gone through the similar sort of issues, or just curious, where do they go? Where do they go to the, do you have a website? I have a website, so website with an email address, thegoodwarrior.com.au. There's lots of information on there. I get booked for keynotes, for workshops, one on ones, intro, phone call. I want people to start believing in their power. I want them to understand that yes, there are always going to be abusers that there are. But we do have the power to decrease the numbers. And we have the power to call them out. And I'll harp on about that all the time. The only way we're going to win this fight on bullying and abuse is to make them known. You know, we have all these laws about concealing people who hurt people. Why? That, you know, I don't believe. They're protected. So no, they say they're protecting the victims. But at the same time, they're protecting the individual who's caused the problem for the victim. I just, I don't get that. Fuck them call them out. Yeah, call them out. Good. That's the only way, you know, I was told once, are you very revengeful? And I said, how so? You got to stop calling people out. It's not revengeful. That's just that's that's actually prevention. That's just been real low. Yeah. But it's prevention because I'm sorry. You can rely on karma if you like. That's a lazy excuse. But by calling them out, you've actually potentially stopped them from doing the same thing to I don't know how many other people. And that's my driver. It's not about revenge for me. And quite frankly, I could have a better life not dealing with this because it's not, it's not fun. It's not sexy. But I have a passion for good people. And I want to see them thrive. And I want to, I want to see them take their power back. And ultimately, I want to crush bullies because I really detest them. Joe Cooper. Sorry. That's a no, no, sorry, Joe Cooper. Good on you for creating the good warrior. But also good on you for putting on a good fight. And not enough people around for me, not enough people around these days with passion, drive, energy, and probably more important commitment to a cause. And sometimes the thankless cause to a cause. So well done. Thank you. Can I tell you one more thing? Did you, my case was just voted number six out of 10 for the most influential court cases in the, in the 21st century? On the planet or in Australia? I think in Australia. Wow. That's pretty chuffed with that because I was like, okay, it's not, it's not received that much recognition. Sooner or later, you're going to go and do a law degree and you become, you're going to be, I can see you be sort of becoming a lawyer prosecuting a lawyer. My dad wanted me to be a lawyer. I want to be a singer. But I can sort of see it happening. Yeah, thanks, Joe. Thank you, Mark. [BLANK_AUDIO]