#451 – Rick Spence: CIA, KGB, Illuminati, Secret Societies, Cults & Conspiracies

The following is a conversation with Rick Spence, a historian specializing in the history of intelligence agencies, espionage, secret societies, conspiracies, the occult, and military history. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast. We've got AG1 for nutrition, net suite for business, better help for the mind, masterclass for learning, and Shopify for selling stuff online. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, if you want to get in touch with me for a bunch of different kinds of reasons, go to lexfreedman.com/contact. And now onto the full ad reads, I try to make these interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too. This episode is brought to you by AG1, an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. A drink I have not been consuming for the last few days because I'm traveling, and it's the thing that makes me miss home. I'm in San Francisco, allowing myself to be surrounded and inspired by some incredible software engineering that's going on here, and putting all the other mess of politics and social bubble stuff aside. So I'm doing a lot of programming, and having a lot of really highly deep technical conversations. But I definitely miss Austin, I miss Texas, I miss Boston, walking the halls of MIT, released the university I intimately know now, and there's something about a university where you can shut off all the mess of the outside world and focus on ideas, on learning and on discovering. Plus the fearless energy of undergraduate and graduate students just boldly going forward, thinking it can completely revolutionize a field. That's really inspiring to be surrounded by. 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I'm reminded of the work and of my conversation with Carl Dicerath, a psychiatrist and a appreciator of the beauty in the world. What a wonderful human being. Also Paul Conti. These are all friends of Andrew Huberman, and what just deep and interesting people they are. I would venture even to say very different, but both just incredible analysts of the human mind. What a mystery the mind is. I've been reading a lot of mechanistic interpretability work, which is this whole field of analyzing you on networks and trying to understand what's going on inside. There is just wonderful breakthroughs in that field, but whenever I'm reading the papers, I can't help but be caught by the thought that I wish we had this kind of rigor or the possibility of rigor in studying the human mind. Sort of neurobiology, neuroscience is too messy. There's too many variables. There's too much going on and you can't do control experiments like you can on neural networks. 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I wish there would be more politicians with that kind of integrity. Agree or disagree with him. The man has integrity. And as we head into this election, I think about the kind of politicians and human beings I would love to see lead our world. And to me, integrity is one of the character traits that is of the highest importance because the pressures when you are at the top leading a nation are immense. And I would like someone who refuses to ever for any reason sell their soul for convenience or otherwise. Anyway, sign out for a $1 per month trial period at Shopify.com/lex. That's all lower case. Got a Shopify.com/lex to take your business to the next level today. This is the Lexington podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Rick Spence. You have written and lectured about serial killers, secret societies, cults, and intelligence agencies. So we can basically begin at any of these fascinating topics. But let's begin with intelligence agencies, which has been the most powerful intelligence agency in history. The most powerful intelligence agency in history. I mean, it's an interesting question. I'd say probably in terms of historical longevity and consistency of performance, that the Russian intelligence services, notice I didn't say the KGB specifically, but the Russian intelligence services going back to the Zaraist period, are consistently pretty good. Not infallible. None of them are. Of course, there's a common Western way of looking at any same Russian. Very often, I think it's still the case, Russians are viewed in one or two ways. Either they are bumbling idiots, or they are diabolically clever. No sort of middle ground. And you can find both of those examples in this. So what I mean by that is that if you're looking at the modern SVR or FSB, which are just two different organizations that used to be part of the one big KGB or its predecessors, the Czecha, you're really going back to the late 19th century and the imperial Russian intelligence security service, generally known as the Okrona or Okronka. It's really the department of police, the special corps of Jean-Darms. Their primary job was protecting the imperial regime and protecting it against imperial or other interior enemies. Revolutionaries, for the most part, and they got very very good at that. By co-opting people within those movements, infiltrating and recruiting informers, agent provocateurs, in fact they excelled at the agent provocateur. Person who placed this side in organization to cause trouble, usually maneuver them into a position of leadership and they provoke actions that can then allow you to crack down on them. That is to many sort of lure or bring the target organization into any legal or open status that it can be more effectively suppressed. They were very good at that. So good that by the early 20th century in the years preceding the Russian Revolution in 1917, they had effectively infiltrated every radical party, Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, SRs, great and small and placed people in positions of influence and leadership. So the point that arguably, that is, you can debate this, that I think in the whole, they could largely dictate what those parties did. Nothing was discussed at any central committee meeting of any revolutionary group that the Akrona was an immediate lay aware of and they often had people in positions to influence what those decisions were. Of course that raises an interesting question is that if they were that good and they had infiltrated and effectively controlled most of the opposition, then how did the regime get overthrown by revolutionaries? The answer to that is that it wasn't overthrown by revolutionaries. It was overthrown by politicians. That would then take us into a detour into Russian history, but I'll just leave it with this. If you look at 1917 and you look closely, this is one of the things that I'd always tell my students is that there are two Russian revolutions in 1917. There's the first one in March or February, depending on your calendar, that overthrows Nicholas II. Revolutionaries are really not involved with that Bolsheviks are nowhere to be seen. Trotsky and Lenin are nowhere to be seen. They have nothing to do with that. That has to do effectively with a political conspiracy within the Russian parliament, the Duma, to unseat an emperor they thought was, you know, bungling the war and was essentially a loser to begin with. And it was a coup d'état, a parliamentary coup d'état. The temporary or provisional government that that revolution put in power was the one overthrown by Lenin eight months later. And that government was essentially one dominated by moderate socialists. It was a government that very quickly sort of turned to the left. You know, the guy we associate with that is Alexander Kurenski. Alexander Kurenski was a Russian socialist, a politician. He was the quasi-dictator of that regime. He's the person, not the Tsar, who's overthrown by Lenin. So the revolutionaries, they did not prove to be the fatal threat to the Tsarist regime. It was the Tsarist political system itself that did that. What then transpired was that the Okrona and its method and many of its agents then immediately segwayed over into the new Soviet security surface. So one of the first things that Lenin did in December of 1917, within a month of seizing power, since the hold on power was tenuous at best, was that well you're going to need some kind of organization to infiltrate and suppress those pesky counter revolutionaries in foreign imperialists and all of the other enemies that we have. And so the extraordinary commission to combat counter-revolution and sabotage that Chaka was formed. You put a veteran Bolshevik Felix Zaginski at the head of that, someone you could politically rely upon, but to Zaginski built this organization essentially out of the Okrona. I mean, they're all of these informers sitting around with nothing to do and they were employed. In the early 20s, the kind of rank and file of the Chaka might have been 80 to 90 percent former imperial officials. Those were gradually decreased over time. So why would they do it? Well, they were professionals. They also needed to eat and things were somewhat precarious. So if your job is to be an agent, provocateur, or if your job is to infiltrate targeted organizations and lead them astray, you do that for whoever pays you. That's part of the professionalism which goes in. And under the Soviets, the Soviet intelligence services are also very good at that. They're very good at infiltrating people into opposing organizations. And I guess the one example I would give to demonstrate that of the Cambridge five, the British traders, Soviet standpoint heroes, who were recruited, known as most notably Kim Philby, Guy Burgess, Donald McClan, Anthony Blanton. There may have been well more than five, but yeah, I wasn't bad out of just Cambridge. And then placing those people in high positions, the ultimate goal, of course, is to get your people into positions of leadership and influence in the opposing intelligence service. And so they did. Of course, it all fell apart, and they ended up in, you know, Philby ended up living the last part of his life in exile in Moscow. But they got their money's worth out of him. And you can also find this in KGB infiltration, the CIA, the FBI, the Aldrich Ames, Hansen cases. Of course, we were infiltrating by we. I mean, the Americans in the West managed to infiltrate our moles as well. But if it came down, you know, someone could dispute this, but I think if you were going to come down to a kind of like a, who had the most moles, Superbowl? Probably the Soviets would come somewhat ahead of that. So the scale of the infiltration, the number of people, and the scale of it. Is there a case to be made that the Akrona and the Chaka orchestrated both the components of the Russian revolution as you describe them? Well, there's an interesting question for me. I mean, there are all kinds of questions about this. I mean, one of the questions is whether or not Lenin was an Akrona agent. Okay, I've just said, "Harricy." Some people will do that quite often because I am a heretic and proud of it. Great. Why would you possibly say that Lenin could have been an Akrona agent? Well, let's look what he managed to do. So you had, coming into the 20th century, a single well, nominally, a single Marxist movement, the Russian social democratic labor party. And Bolsheviks and Mensheviks, majority ites and minorityites, are merely factions of that party. And they always agreed that they were all Marxists, and we all believe in dialectical materialism, and the rise of. We're all socialist comrades. The difference was the tactical means by which one would attain this. And what Lenin wanted was a militant small-scale vanguard party. I wanted a revolution. I wanted to seize power, seize control of the state, and once you have the state, then you induce socialism from above. Whereas the majority of the people, the so-called Mensheviks, the minorityites, who are oddly enough the vast majority of the party, that's one of the first things. How do you lose that argument? How does the minority get to grab the name majority ites, but Lenin did that? So what Lenin wanted was a conspiratorial party of committed revolutionaries that would plot and scheme and undermine and eventually seize control of the state and induce socialism from above. There were other Russian Marxists who thought that that sounded vaguely totalitarian, and not really democratic, and not even terribly socialist. And they opposed that, ineffectively, from the beginning, outmaneuvered every step of the way. The Manchiviks are a case study in failure of a political organization. That, too, will be heresy to some people, but look, they lost. Now, so what Lenin managed to do, starting around 1903, continuing under this, is he managed to divide, to take what had been a single Marxist party and split it into angry, contending factions. Because he and his Bolsheviks run one side, advocating a much more militant conspiratorial policy, the discombobulated Mensheviks were over and the other. And in between, where a lot of people really didn't know where they stood on this, I mean, sometimes they kind of agreed and he seems to making sense today. No, no, I don't think he's making sense in that day. But he managed to completely disunify this organization. Now, who could possibly have seen benefit in that? The O'Grana. Now whether or not they put him up to it, whether or not in some way they helped move him into a position of leadership or encouraged it or encouraged it through people around him, whether he was a witting or unwitting agent of the Zara's secret police, he certainly accomplished exactly what it was that they wanted. And I find that suspicious. It's one of those things that it's so convenient in a way is that I'm not necessarily sure that was an accident. There's also this whole question to me as to what was going on within the O'Grana itself. Now this is one of these questions when I come to you later about how intelligence agencies interact or serve the governments to which they are theoretically subordinate. They do tend to acquire a great deal of influence and power. After all, their main job is to collect information. And that information could be about all kinds of things, including people within the government structure itself. And they also know how to leverage that information in a way to get people to do what you want them to do. So an argument can be made, again, an argument, not a fact merely an opinion, which is mostly what history is made out of, opinions, is that at some point, between about 1900 and 1917, people within the O'Grana were playing their own game. And that game took them in a direction which meant that continued loyalty to the Emperor, specifically to Nicholas II, was no longer part of that. To me, in a way, it seems almost during the events of 1917 that one, you had an organization that was very effective when it did this. Suddenly, it just becomes ineffective. It doesn't really disappear. These things don't go away because it will reappear as the O'Chucka, basically fairly quickly. But it raises the question to me, is the one degree there were people within the organization who allowed events to take the course they wished? I always wonder how much deliberate planning there is within an organization like O'Chucka, or if there's kind of a distributed intelligence that happens. Well, one of the key elements at any kind of intelligence organization or operation is compartmentalization. Need to know. So rarely do you have an occasion where everybody, everybody in an executive position are all brought into a big corporate meeting, and we discuss all of the secret operations that are going on. No, you never do that. Only a very limited number of people should know about that. If you have a person who is a case officer who is controlling agents, he's the only one who should know who those people are. Possibly, his immediate superiors, but no way do you want that to be common knowledge. So information within the organization itself is compartmentalized. So you don't need everybody to be in on it. You don't even need necessarily the people who are nominally at the top. First, the real boss of the Okrona was the imperial ministry of the interior. The minister of the interior, in fact, but the minister of the interior had no real effective control over this at all. I mean, to the point was that at one point early on, they actually organized the assassination of their own boss. They have their agents among the revolutionaries killed the minister of the interior. Because he'll distribute replaced by another one. He's an imperial bureaucrat. He's not really part of their organization. You know, it's like a director of an intelligence agency appointed by the president. Maybe he's part of the organization. Maybe he isn't. Maybe he is not one of us. So you've got different levels, different compartments within it. And who's actually running the show if anyone is, I don't know. That's never supposed to be apparent. Well, that's a fascinating question. I mean, you could see this with NKVD. It's obviously an extremely powerful organization that starts to eat itself wherever he's pointing fingers internally also. As a way to gain more power, this is the question is in organizations like that that are so compartmentalized. Where's the power? Where's the center of power? Because you would think given that much power, some individual or group of individuals will start accumulating that power. But it seems like that's not always a trivial thing. Because if you get too powerful, the snake eats that person. Well, we go back into the founder of Soviet secret police, Felix Tezhinsky. Tezhinsky dies in 1926. Heels over, after giving a heated speech to a party meeting. Now, the common view, what you usually read, which was key for the time, is that clearly Stalin had him whacked because anytime someone died, it was almost always it. And I think a lot of times he did. But in some cases, Stalin's probably getting blame for things that he didn't actually do. Tezhinsky wasn't even opposed to Stalin. So it's not clear why he'd be, but this was the, you know, Stalin died, you know, obviously he was poisoned. Something happened. It was an unnatural death. Somebody goes in for an operation, you know, it gets a little too much anesthesia, Stalin killed them. Somebody tips over in a canoe and upstate New York. Stalin killed them. There's actually a case about that. So that itself can be kind of useful where every time someone dies, they think you killed them. That's kind of an interesting method of intimidation in that regard. But the suspicion is none the less there. Tezhinsky had been, he was the grand inquisitor. He was seemingly firmly in control of the organization. Of course, maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was, my guess would be is that if Tezhinsky's death was not natural causes, that he was probably eliminated by someone within his own organization. And then you look at the people who take over his immediate success areas, Dr. Slav Menzinski, who's really not really a secret policeman, more kind of intellectual dilatant. But if you look behind him, you'll notice the fellow is Henrik Yegota. And Yegota will really sort of manage things from behind the scenes until Menzinski dies in 1934. And then Yegota will hold until he's a victim of the purges, I think in '37 or '38. Yegota is ambitious, murderous. And if I was going to point the finger to anybody who possibly had Tezhinsky whacked, it would be him. And for the purpose is simply of advancement. That's the, you know, the person to look at any kind of corporate organization is your immediate subordinate, the person who could move into your job because more than likely that's exactly what they're planning to do. Yeah, just one step away from the very top. Yeah. Somebody there will probably accumulate the most power. You mentioned that the various Russian intelligence agencies were good at creating agent provocateurs, infiltrating the halls of power. What does it take to do that? Well, there's an interesting little acronym called MICE, M-I-C-E. And it's, you know, generally used. And it's just the way in which you would acquire, how do you get people to work for you? Well, M stands for money. You pay them. People are greedy, they want money. You know, if you look at Aldrich Ames, he had a very, very expensive wife with expensive tastes. So you want him money. I is for ideology. So during, particularly in the 1920s and the 1930s, the Soviets were very effective in exploiting communists, you know, people who wanted to serve the great cause. Because even though that's initially not really what they wanted to do, because the idea was that if you recruit agents from among, let's say, American communists, you compromise the party. Because exactly what you're going to say is that all communists are Soviet spies. They're all traders in some way. So you would really want to keep those two things separate, but ideology was just so convenient and those people would just work for you so well. You could get them to do anything, betray their grandmother. They would go ahead and do that for their greater good. So ideology can be a motivation, and that can be someone who is a devoted Marxist lunatic, and it can also be someone who is a disgruntled communist because there's no anti-communist like an ex-communist, those who lose the faith can become very, very useful. For instance, if you look in the case of American intelligence, the people who essentially temporarily destroyed much of the KGB organization in the US post-World War II, where people like Whitaker Chambers, Louis Boudin's, Elizabeth Bentley, all of those people have been communist party members. They had all been part of the Red Faithful. They all, for one reason or another, became disillusioned and turned rat, or pig-treat, which every case you may want to put in that regard. What is the C in the East End for? The C is for coercion. That's where you have to persuade someone to work for you. You have to pressure them, so usually you blackmail them. You know, they could be, they have a gambling habit, you know, in the old days, I'm sorry often because they were gay. Okay? Guess them an decision where they can be compromised, and you can get them to do your bidding. Those people usually have a certain amount of control. Here's an interesting example of how the Okrona tended to handle this. I think it's still largely used. You'd round up a bunch of revolutionaries on some charge or another, distributing revolutionary literature, running any legal printing press. You bring a guy into the room and you say, "Okay, they're going to work for us." Of course, we refuse to do so. I go, "Well, if you refuse, we'll keep the rest of your comrades in jail for a while, now maybe beat them with a rubber truncheon or so, and then we're just going to let you go. We're just going to put you back out on the street, and if you don't work for us, we will spread the rumor through our agents already in your organization that you are. And then what will your comrades do? How long are you going to live? So you see, you have no choice. You're ours and you're going to cooperate with us." And the way that that effectiveness would be insured is that you have multiple agents within the same organization who don't know who each other are. That's very important. And they'll all be filing reports. So let's say you have three agents inside the Central Committee of the SR Party, and there's a committee meeting and you're going to look at the reports that, "Well, they all better agree with each other, right?" If one person doesn't report what the other two do, then perhaps they're not entirely doing their job, and they can be liquidated at any time, all you do is drop the dime on them. And this was done periodically. In fact, in some cases, you would betray your own agents just to completely discombobulate to the organization. This happened in one particular case, around 1908, the fellow who was the head of the Chief Revolutionary Terrorist Organization, which wasn't Bolshevik, but the so-called Socialist Revolutionaries, actually the biggest revolutionary part of the SRs, who already been actually Marxists, more anarchists, but they went all in for the propaganda of the deed. They really like blowing people up and carrying out quite a campaign of terrorism. The fellow who was the head of that terrorist organization was a fellow of the name of Yevno-Azef, and Yevno-Azef was, guess what, an Okrona agent, everything he did, every assassination that he planned, he did in consultation with his control. So he kind of run out his string. There was increasing suspicion of him. He was also asking for a lot more money, so the Okrona itself arranged to have him write it out. And what did that do? Well, what do you do in your party when you find out the Chief of your Terrorist Brigade was a secret police agent? It's a consternation and mistrust. Nobody in the party would ever trust in you couldn't tell who you were sitting around. I know that a fellow I wrote a biography on Boris Sevenkoff, who was a Russian revolutionary, and the second in command within the terrorist organization, by the way, the guy that wanted Azef's job so bad he could taste it. Well on the one level, he expressed absolute horror that his boss was a police agent, and will he should, because Sevenkoff was a police agent too. See, they already had the number two waiting in the wings to take over. But he was legitimately shocked, he didn't really suspect that. So it's a way of manipulating this, and then finally, we come to the E. That, I think, is the most important, ego. Sometimes people spy or betray because of the egotistical satisfaction that they receive. The sheer kind of Machiavellian joy in deceit. An example of that would be Kim Philby, one of the Cambridge Five. Now Philby was a communist, and he would argue that he always saw himself as serving the communist cause. But he also made this statement, I think it's in the preface to his autobiography, and he says one never looks twice at the offer of service in elite force. He saw him by his recruitment, by the NKVD in the 1930s, and he was absolutely chuffed by that. The mere fact that they would want him, what he considered to be a first-rate organization would want him, satisfied his ego. And if I was to take a gasses to whether it was ideological motivation, whether it was the romance of communism, or there it was the appeal of ego that was the most important in his career or treason, I'd go with ego. And I think that figures into a lot, people don't, someone doesn't get the promotions that they wanted. Again, if you look at something like Aldrich Ames career in particular, you've got these kind of, his career in the CIA was hit or miss. He didn't get the postings or promotions that he wanted as a valuation, and he never felt that he got credit for doing that. And that's the type of thing that tends to stick in someone's crawl and can lead for egotistical reasons and added incentive to betray. Yeah, that there's a boost to the ego when you can deceive, sort of not play by the rules of the world and just play with powerful people like they're your pawns. You're the only one that knows this, you're the only one that knows that the person who is sitting across from you, to which you have sworn your loyalty, you're simultaneously betraying, what a rush that must be for some people. I wonder how many people are susceptible to this. I would like to believe that people have, a lot of people haven't the integrity to at least withstand the MI, the money and the ideology, the pull of that, and the ego. It can also be a combination of the two. I mean, you can create a recipe of these things, certain amount of money, ego, and the little push of coercion, that if you don't, well, we'll wrap you up, you'll be exposed. What are some differences to you as we look at the history of the 20th century between the Russian intelligence and the American intelligence in the CIA? If you look at both the Ochrana and the KGB, one of the things that you find consistent is that they, a single organization handled foreign intelligence, that is spying upon enemy or hostile governments, and also internal security, so that's all part of it. Whereas if you look at the U.S. models that have all, you eventually have the FBI who under Hoover, who insists that he's going to be the counterintelligence force, okay? If they're commy spies or running around America, it's the FBI who's supposed to fare at the map. The CIA is not supposed to be involved in that, and the charter, the basic agreement in 1947, did not give the CIA any, you know, it's often said they were barred from spying on Americans, which isn't quite true, you can always find a way to do that. they don't have, they don't have any police who judicial powers. They can't run around in the country carrying guns to use on people, they can't arrest you, they can't interrogate you, they can't jail you, they have no police or judicial powers. Now that means they have to get that from someone else. That doesn't mean that other agencies can't be brought in or local police officials, corn, or whatever you need, you can eventually acquire, but they can't do that directly. So you've got this division, between foreign intelligence and domestic counterintelligence, often split between hostile organizations, the relationship between the FBI and the CIA, I think it's fair to say, it's not shummy, never has been. It's always been a certain amount of rivalry and contention between the two. And it's not to say that something like that didn't exist between the domestic counterintelligence and foreign intelligence components of the KGB, but there would be less of that to a degree because there was a single organization. They're all answerable to the same people. So that gives you a certain greater amount, I think of of leeway and power because you're controlling both of those ends. I remember somebody telling me once that and he was a retired KGB officer. There you go, retired. One of the things that he found amusing was that in his role, one of the things that he could be is that he could be anywhere at any time in any dress, which meant that he could be in or out of uniform and in a place at any time. He was authorized to do that. The more freedom, the more power, I think one of the things that you would often interview is that the Russians are simply, you know, naturally meaner. There's less respect for human rights. There's a greater tendency to abuse power that one might have. I mean, frankly, they're all pretty good at that. They're probably, it is fair to say that there's probably some degree of cultural differences that it not necessarily for institutional reasons, but cultural reasons there could well be things that Americans might bulk it doing more than you would find on the Russian or Soviet side of the equations. The other aspect of that is that Russian history is long and contentious and bloody. One of the things that certainly teaches you, you never trust foreigners. Every foreign government anywhere, any country on your border is a real or potential enemy. They will all, at some point, have given the chance, invade you. Therefore, they must always be treated with great suspicion. It goes back to something, and I think the British observed was that countries don't have friends. They have interests and those interests can change over time. Well, the CIA is probably equally suspicious of all other nations, but your job, you're supposed to be suspicious. Your job is not to be trusting. Yeah, the basic job of an intelligence agency is to safeguard your secrets and steal the other guys and then hide those away. Are there laws, either intelligence agencies, that they're not willing to break? Is it basically lawless operation to where you can break any laws as long as it accomplishes the task? Well, I think John Lakeré gave his pen name. He was talking about his early recruitment into British intelligence, and one of the things he remember being told upfront was if you do this, you have to be willing to lie, and you have to be willing to kill. Now those are things that in ordinary human interactions are bad things. Generally, we don't like it when people lie to us. We expect that people will act honestly towards us, whether that's being a businessman you're involved with, your employers. We're often disappointed in that because people do lie all the time for a variety of reasons, but honesty is generally considered to be a bit, but in a realm where deception is a rule, dishonesty is a virtue to be good at that, to be able to lie convincingly is good. It's one of the things you need to do. Killing also is generally frowned upon. Put people in prison for that. There are otherwise executed, but in certain circumstances, killing is one of those things that you need to be able to do. What he felt he was being told in that case is that once you enter this realm, the same moral rules that apply in general British society do not apply. If you're squeamish about it, you won't fit in. You have to be able to do those things. I wonder how often those intelligence agencies in the 20th century, and of course, the natural question extending it to the 21st century, how often they go to the assassination? How often they go to the kill part of that versus just the espionage? Let's take an example from American intelligence. This is from the CIA 1950s, 1960s into the 1970s, MK Ultra. That is a secret program which was involved with what is generally categorized as mind control, which really means messing with people's heads. What was the goal of that? There seemed to have been lots of goals, but there was an FBI memo that was I recently acquired, quite legally, by the way. It's declassified, but it's from 1949. This is only two years after the CIA came into existence. It's an FBI memo because the FBI, of course, very curious what the CIA is up to. The FBI are not part of this meeting, but they have someone in, they're sort of spying out what's going on. There was a meeting which was held in a private apartment in New York, so it's not held in any kind of, you know, it's essentially never really happened because it's in somebody's house, but there are a couple of guys there from the CIA. One of them is Cleve Baxter. Cleve Baxter is the great godfather of the lie detector. Pretty much everything that we know or think we know about lie detectors today, they do it at Cleve Baxter. He's also the same bad thought that plants could feel, but which somehow was a derivative of his work on lie detectors. So these guys are there, and they're giving a talk to some military and other personnel, and there's certain parts of the document, which are, of course, redacted, but you could figure out what it is that they're talking about, and they're talking about hypnotic suggestion, and all the wonderful things that you can potentially do with hypnotic suggestion. And two of the things they note is that one of the things we could potentially do is erase memories from people's minds and implant false memories. That would be really keen to do that, just imagine how that would be done. So here to me is the interesting point. So talking about this in 1949, MK Ultra does not come along until really in 1953, although they're all sorts of, you know, art and choke, and others, everything is sort of leading up to that. It's simply an elaboration of programs that are already there. I don't think that it ultimately matters whether you can implant memories or erase memories. To me, the important part is the thought they could, and they were going to try to do it. And that eventually is what you find out in the efforts made during the 1950s and 60s through MK Ultra, MK Surge, MK Naomi, and all the others that came out. That's one of the things they're working for. And among the few MK Ultra era documents that survived, there's that whole question, is that you get someone to put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger and then I remember it later. Yeah. You could, interestingly enough. So non-direct violence, controlling people's minds, controlling people's minds at scale and experimenting with different kinds of ways of doing that. One person put it that the basic argument there are the basic thing you're after was to understand the architecture of the human mind, how it worked, how it put together, and then how you could take those pieces apart and assemble them in different ways. So this comes, this is where hypnosis comes in, which is a, was then still is, fairly spooky thing. Nobody's ever explained to me exactly what it is. The idea was that could you, you think of the whole possibilities in this case, could you create an alternate personality? And use that alternate personality in an agent role, but then be able to turn it on and off. So, subsequently, the person. that personality inhabited was captured and interrogated, tortured, you know, and their fingernails torn out. They would have no memory of it. They couldn't give any kind of secret away because it was embedded in some part of their brain where there was a completely different person. I mean, you can just imagine the possibilities that you can dream up. And again, it's not, I think, the question is to whether you, that is possible or whether it was done, although I suspect that both of those are true, but that you would try to do it. Then imagine the mischief that comes out of that. And one of the big complaints from a legal standpoint about MK Ultra and the rest is that you were having medical experiments essentially being carried out on people without their knowledge and against their will, which is, you know, unknown. Yeah, the fact that you're willing to do medical experiments says something about what you're willing to do. And I'm sure that same spirit, innovative spirit, persist to this day. And maybe less so, I hope less so in the United States, but probably in other intelligence agencies in the world. Well, one thing that was learned, and the reason why most MK Ultra and similar records were destroyed on order in the early 70s. Around the time the CIA became under certain amount of scrutiny. Now, the mid 70s were not a good time for the agency because you had the church committee breathing out their neck. You had all of these assassins. You know, people were asking lots of questions. And so you need to, you need to dump this stuff because there's all kinds of, because you were committing crimes against American citizens. So let's eradicate it. And the important lesson to be learned is that never do these type of thing again, where at least in any way in which the agency's direct fingerprints are placed on it. You can pay people. You can subsidize research. You can set up venture capital firms. You got plenty of money. And you can funnel that money into the hands of people who will carry out this research privately. So if something goes wrong, you have perfect deniability. On the topic of mice, on the topic of money, ideology, coercion and ego. Let me ask you about a conspiracy theory. So there is a conspiracy theory that the CIA is behind Jeffrey Epstein. At a high level, if you can just talk about that, is that something that's at all even possible? You have basically this will be for coercion. You get a bunch of powerful people to be sexually mischievous. And then you collect evidence on them so that you can then have leverage on them. Well, let's look at what Epstein was doing. He was a, he was a businessman who then also developed a very lucrative sideline and being a high level procurer, basically in supplying young girls. And he also filmed much of that activity. I think his partner is Jelaine. And I'm hoping for an out-sacred game. I think it's Gellaine. Gellaine? Well, I've heard it both ways. Gellaine or Jelaine, whichever it may be. I think her argument at one point was that, well, we did this to protect ourselves. But this type of thing has been done before. There's nothing new about this. Getting influential people in compromising situations and filming them. I could give you another historical example of that. In late 19 to an actually early 1930s, just pre-Nazi Berlin, there was a very prominent sort of would-be psychic and occultist for the name of Eric Jan Hanneson. He had a private yacht. I think it was called the Seven Sins. And he hosted parties. He also had a whole club called the Palace of the Occult, which hosted parties where things went on. And there were cameras everywhere. He filmed important people, you know, guys like the ground shirt chief of Berlin in various states of undress and sexual congress. And he did that for the purposes of blackmail. So in Epstein's case, he is a procurer of young girls to wealthy men, largely. And many of those events were recorded. Now, even if it wasn't his intention to use them for black mail, think of what someone else could do it because people know about this. So you could raise a question, is this not, you know, Epstein is just kind of a greedy pervert. But through his greedy perversion, he's now collecting information that could be useful. Who could that be useful to? Who would like dirt on Prince Andrew on the claim to go? Think of all the people who were there. And these, you know, there were important people who went to Lolita Island. So if it isn't Epstein directly, he might have been being, I'm not trying to let him off the hook because they have anything for him. He was either running his own blackmail business or someone was using him as a front for that. I mean, I think we're kidding ourselves. We're trying to pretend that's not what was going on. So you think even American intelligence agencies would be willing to swoop in and take advantage of a situation like that? Well, you know, just in case American politicians could ultimately end up in a position to oversee things like intelligence budgets. One of them might even become director. You never know. You can never tell what some crazy president might do. It could be very, I look, one of the guys who understood the part was Jay Groover. Jay Groover spent a long time collecting dossiers and politicians. How do you think he'd remain director of the FBI as long as he did? Because he systematically collected dirt on people. So there is a history of this type of thing. And again, you could argue that's partly for his protection to keep his job to protect the sanctity and security of the bureau. You can find a million different ways to justify that. It's really dark. Well, there is that side to human nature. Let's put it that way. Well, there is the CIA or the Acron. Maybe that's what the president of the United States sees when they show up to office is all the stuff they have on him or her. And say that there's internal mechanism of power that you don't want to mess with. And so you will listen, whether that internal mechanism of power is the military industrial complex or whatever, the bureaucracy of government. Conducts with the deep state. The deep state. Trinch to bureaucratic. Well, it's been said, and I think it's generally true that bureaucratic creatures are like any other creatures. It basically exists to perpetuate itself and to grow. I mean, nobody wants to go out of business. And of course, you get all of these things like pizegate and accusations of one form or another. But there's an interesting thing to consider. Okay, and I want to argue that I'm not saying that pizegate in any way was real or Q and on. But what do they get these ideas from? So let's ask ourselves, do pedophiles exist? Yeah. Do organized pedophile organizations exist? Yeah, they share information, pictures. They're out there on the dark web. They cooperate. So does trial trafficking exist? Yeah, it does. So in other words, whether or not specific conspiracy theories about this or that group of organized pedophile cultists is real, all the ingredients for that to be real are there. Pedophiles exist. Organized pedophilia exists. Child and human trafficking exists. At some point, at some time, someone will put all of those together. In fact, certainly, they already have. We'll jump around a little bit, but your work is so fascinating and it covers so many topics. So let's if we jump into the present with the Bohemian Grove and the Bilderberg older burgers. So the elites, as I think you've referred to them. So this gathering of the elites, can you just talk about them? What is what is this? Well, first thing I have to point out is that Bohemian Grove is a place not an organization. It's where the Bohemian Club meets that 2700 acre old-growth redwoods near North of San Francisco. The Bohemian Club began the way back to the 1870s. It's initial members were mostly journalists. Okay, in fact, supposedly the name itself comes from, it was a term for, an itinerant journalist who moved paper to paper was called the Bohemian. And although I think there may be other reasons why that particular term was chosen as well, but I think the original five members, there were like three journalists, there was a merchant and there was a ventner guy owned of vineyards, California house surprising. One of them terribly wealthy, but they formed an exclusive men's club, and still is, nothing terribly unusual about that at the time. But it became fashionable, and as it became fashionable, more wealthy people wanted to become part of it. And the thing about getting rich guys to join your club is what rich guys have money. And of course it's one of those rich guys that bought Bohemian Grove where now you build your old boy's summer camp, which is what it is. They got cabins with goofy names. They go there, they perform skits, they dress up in costumes. Yeah. True, some of those skits look like pagan human sacrifices, but you know, it's just a skit. What's it really going on there? So on the one hand, you can argue, look, it's just, it's a rich guys club, they like to get out there. The whole motto of the place is weaving spiders come not here. So when we're ever going to talk about business, we just want to get out into the woods, put on some robes, burn a couple of effigies in front of the owl, have a good time, probably get drunk a lot. What's with the robes? Why do they do weird creepy shit? Why do they put on a mask and the robe and do the plays and the owl with the sacrifice thing, I don't know. Why do you have a giant owl, I mean, why do you do that? Well, what is that in human nature? Because I don't think rich people are different than not rich people. But what is it about wealth and power that brings that out of people? Well, part of it is the ritual aspect of it. And yeah, that clearly is a ritual. Rituals are pretty simple. Rituals are just a series of actions performed in a precise sequence to produce an effect. That describes a lot of things. It describes plays, symphonies, every movie you've ever seen. A movie is a ritual. It is a series of actions carried out in a precise sequence to produce an effect. But then it had its soundtrack to cue you to what emotions you're supposed to be feeling. It's a great idea. So the rich people should just go to a movie or maybe just go to a Taylor Swift concert. Like, why? Why do you have to? Well. Why the owl thing? Part of it is to create this kind of sense, I suppose, of group solidarity. You know, you're all going to appear and also a way of sort of transcending yourself in a way. You know, when you put on the robe, it's like putting on a uniform, you are in some way a different or a more important person. It's a ritual. Okay. The key ritual that became me and Grove is a thing called the cremation of care and cremation. And that's what it's supposed to be. We're going to put all of our, you know, rich, important people. We have to make all of these critical decisions, life is so hard. So we're going to go out here in the woods and we're going to kick back and we're all going to gather around the lake and then we're going to carry, you know, it's, it's wicker. It's not a real person. And how would you know? And then we're going to, and we're going to, and this is the cremation of our care. But it's a ritual, which is meant to produce a sense of solidarity and relief among those people who are there. The question comes down with the rituals is how seriously do you take them? How important is this to the people who carry them out? And the interesting answer to that is that for some people, it's, you know, for some people it's just boring. I mean, there are probably people standing around the owl who think this is ridiculous and can't wait for it to get over with. There are the people that are kind of excited about it to get caught up into it. But other people can take it very seriously. It's all the matter of the intention that you have about what the ritual means. And I don't mean to suggest by that that there's anything necessarily sinister about what's going on. But it is a, it is clearly a ritual carried out for some kind of group reinforcing purpose. And you're absolutely right. You don't have to do it that way. It's not an, I mean, I've gone to summer camps and we never carried out mock sacrifices in front of an owl. All right. We did all those other things. We didn't even have any robes either. So it goes beyond merely a rich guy's summer camp, although that's an aspect of it. But it also, I think often obscures it, focusing on Bohemian Grove at the getaway of the club ignores that the club is around all the time. That's what's at the center of this. It is the club and its members. So despite all the talk about no weaving spiders coming around here, what are the other features of the summer meeting are things called lakeside talks. And this often people are invited to go there and one of the people who was invited, I think around 1968 was Richard Nixon, who was making his political comeback. He was invited to give a talk, where very important people are listening. And Nixon, in his memoirs, realized what was going on. He was being auditioned just whether or not he was going to be right. He recognized that that was really the beginning of his second presidential campaign. He was being vetted. So one of the main theories, call it a conspiracy theory or not, about the Bohemian club and the gatherings, is that people of wealth and influence gather together. And whether or not it's part of the agenda or not, inevitably you're going to talk about things of interest. But to me, as a matter of fact, that you invite people in, political leaders to give lakeside talks, means that there are weaving spiders, which are going on. And it is a perfect private venue to vet people for political office. I mean, yeah, where else are you going to do it? If you're interested in vetting, if you're interesting and powerful people selecting. Well, see, here's the question, are these guys actually picking who's going to be present? Is that the decision which is being made? Or are they just deciding what horses they're going to back? Right. I think the latter is the simpler version of it, but it doesn't mean this the other way around. But these are the kinds of, you know, I mean Nixon was, you know, there was the whole 1960 thing. So he's, he's the new Nixon, remember this, and this, this is where the new Nixon apparently made a good impression on the right people because he did indeed get the rebel agonomination and he did indeed become president. Well, there could also be a much more innocent explanation of really it's powerful people getting together and having conversations and through that conversation influencing each other's view of the one and just having a legitimate discussion of policies for policy. Why wouldn't they? I mean, why would you assume that people are not going to do that? It's the owl thing with the, with the robes like what, why the owl and why are the robes? Which is why it becomes really compelling when guys like Alex Jones forgive me, but I've not watched his documentary. I probably should at some point about the Bohemian Grove where he claims that there is Satanist, human sacrifice of, I think, children. And I think that's quite a popular conspiracy theory or it is lost popularity. It kind of like transformed itself into the QAnon set of conspiracy theories. But I mean, can you speak to that conspiracy? Let's put it this way. The general public rich people are inherently suspicious. Yeah. Great. First of all, they've got all that money and exactly how did one obtain it. And I do not of necessity adhere to the view that behind ever a great fortune there was a great crime, but there often are, you know, there are ways in which it's the correct. But I think it's one of the things I think that can happen is particularly when people acquire a huge amount of money. And I won't name any names, but let's say there are people who perhaps in the tech sphere who coming from no particular background of, well, suddenly find themselves with $600 billion. Well, what, these are the questions you would have to ask yourself, why me? Because you're one of the rare, tiny group of human beings who will ever have that kind of wealth in your hands. Even if you are a convinced atheist, I think at some point you have to begin to suspect that the cosmic muffin, providence, whatever it is, put this money in your hands to do what? Achieve great thing. Just think of all this stuff is. So you're going to start a foundation and you're going to start backing all the things that you like. This is, I think there's an element of ego that comes in with it as well. And again, it may not be so much what the rich person with a huge amount of money at their disposal and a lot of fuzzy ideas about what they do. do with it can be influenced by others. It's always that question is to who's actually manipulating these events. What's going on in that regard? I think in some way they can be a very useful sucker. Find somebody with a lot of money and get them to finance the things that you want them to do. The Bohemian Club is, I don't think in and of itself, inherently evil or sinister, but it means that there are lots of different people in it who have different agendas. It goes back to what I said about how somebody feels about the cremation of care ritual. This is either just a waste of time. It's just some sort of silly thing that we're doing, or it is something of great importance, perhaps even mystical or religious importance, because that's ostensibly what it's pretending to be. So what's this question? Is the one degree you begin to play and the play becomes serious? That tends to happen a lot. You've studied a lot of cults and occultism. What do you think is the power of that mystical experience? Well, what is broadly referred to? What's occultism? What's the occultism? The cult is the hidden. That's all it really means, specifically hidden from sight. The basis of it is the idea that what is hidden? Well, what is hidden from us is most of the world, most of reality. So the basic concept within occultism, the basic concept within most religions, which are approved forms of occultism, is that the physical world that we are aware of is only a very small part of a much larger reality, and that what the methods and practices of occultism arguably do is to allow someone to either enter into this larger reality or to access that larger reality for purposes to be exploited here. The most interesting statement about, and a key element of this becomes the thing called magic. Now, I don't know magic, you know, it's a guy standing on stage performing a trick. But the interesting thing about a stage magician is that a stage magician is we know when we're watching this that it's a trick. Yet we can't really figure out if he does it well how that trick is being accomplished because it seems to defy physical laws, and that's what's fascinating about it. So even though you know it's a trick, if you can't figure it out, it has this kind of power of fascination, but it's mimicking something. Stage magic is mimicking real magic. So it's real magic. Well, let's go back to Alistair Crowley because, you know, he always has to go. I knew he was going to come up at some point in this, really. Because he always does all roads, lead to Alistair Crowley. All roads lead to Alistair Crowley. And I've said this enough that it should be able to get it right, but I'm paraphrasing here. It goes magic, which of course he's spelled with a K to, you know, or CK, is the the art and science of causing change to occur in conformity with will. So in a way that's sort of mind over matter, but it's the idea that one can through will. Through intention. Bend reality. To make something happen, somebody wants to put it this way, it's tipping the luck plane. So, you know, you got some kind of a level plane. I was just trying to do just tip it just a little bit. So the marble rules rolls over one side or another. Now that presupposes a lot of things that is there a luck plane? I don't know, but you know, it's a good sort of idea to have, but. And here again, don't become overly bothered trying to figure out whether you actually can bend reality. Become bothered by the fact that there are people who believe that they can and will go to great efforts to do so and will often believe they have succeeded. So it's this effort to make things occur in a particular way, maybe just to sort of nudge reality in one little way or another. And that's where things like rituals come in. Rituals are a way focusing will and attention. We're all there. We're all thinking about the same thing. And you have to imagine just how, you know, the pervasiveness of what could be called that that kind of magical thinking every day I was everywhere. So let me give you an example. You ever attended a high school football pep rally? Think of what's going on there. Okay, your team is going to battle the other team. You've now assembled everyone in the gymnasium. You've got people who are dancing around an animal totem costumes. And what are you chanting? Everyone is supposed to chant that, you know, that the other team dies. Okay, that you will be horribly defeated and that our team will be victorious. That is a magic ritual. The idea is if it comes into this idea, it's very popularly about visualizing things, visualizing, manifesting hell is term. You need to manifest your success. Well, that's just magic. That is trying to cause change in conformity with will. So these things can happen without you being even consciously aware of what's going on. And you don't need to be because if you're all a part of the of the mob, which is there in the gymnasium and you get into this and you get worked up. And a cultist would argue what you're doing is you're creating a huge amount of energy. All these people are putting energy into something and that energy goes somewhere. And maybe you can, maybe, just maybe, you actually can slightly increase the chances of your team's victory. Of course, your opponents are having their own ritual at the same time. So whoever has the bigger mojo will apparently win on the team. So that's a, I would say trivial example of that. But a clear one. I do believe that there's incredible power in groups of humans getting together and morphing reality. I think that's probably one of the things that made human civilization what it is. Groups of people be able to believe a thing and bring that belief into reality. Yes, that's your exactly right. Bring to conceive of something and then through intention will to manifest that into this realm. And of course, that power of the collective mind can be leveraged by charismatic leaders to do all kinds of stuff, where you get cults that do horrible things or anything. There might be a cult that does good things. It depends. We don't call those cults. Exactly. Without endorsing this entirely and one of the questions, what's the difference between a cult and a religion? And it has been said that in the case of a cult, there's always someone at the top who knows what's going on. Generally, who knows it's a scam. In a religion, that person is dead. So, say, I've just managed to insult every single religion. And it's an interesting way of thinking about it because I think there is some degree of of accuracy in that statement. Do you think, actually, the interesting psychological question is, in cults, do you think the person at the top always knows that it's a scam? Do you think there's something about the human mind where you gradually begin to believe your own bullshit? Yes, that seems to be the thing. That again is part of magic, I think, is believing your own bullshit. It doesn't necessarily mean that the head of the cult realized, but there's someone, maybe the second, you know, I always sort of look in the lieutenant, someone probably has an idea about what's going on. The other thing it seems to be a kind of dead giveaway for what we would call a cult is what's called excessive reverence for the leader. People just believe everything these people say. I give you an example of the first time I ever encountered anything like that was in, it was in Santa Barbara, California in the 1970s. I was going to grad school and there was a particular cult locally. I think it was Brotherhood of the Sun. And it was the same, so there was some guy who was, you know, among the other things, followers were convinced to hand over all their money and and personal belongings too. him. I believe he used part of that money to buy a yacht with. Anyway, a lot of it went to him. And then, of course, working for free upon different cult-owned business enterprises of which there was several. And there was a person I knew who became a devoted follower of this. And it was all I could think of at one point was ask them, "What the hell is a matter with you? I mean, have you lost your mind? Why would you. why is it that this person can possibly be providing it, that you essentially are going to become a slave to them, which is what they were doing?" And I actually give that credit in a way of sparking my whole interest in things like secret societies. And here again, as a disclaimer, I am not now, nor have I ever been the member of any fraternal organization, secret society or cult that I know of. And that's what interests me about them. Because I'm just always trying to figure out why people do these things. Like I said, why the robes in the owl? Why? Why do you do that? And it's trying to figure it out. I mean, I couldn't even hack the boy scouts. Okay, that was too much of that. Because to me, you join an organization, and the first thing it comes along is there's somebody, there are rules, and someone is telling you what to do. Okay, I don't like people telling me what to do. I spent much of my life trying to avoid that as much as possible. And join a cult. There's going to be someone telling you what to do. Join the Bohemian Club, and there's going to be someone telling you what to do. Obviously, a lot of people really get something out of that. It becomes, in some ways, it's sort of necessary for them to function. But I do not understand it, and my study of it is a personal error to try to understand why people do that. And there are so many reasons, primary of which I would say is the desire and the human heart to belong. Yes. And the dark forms that it takes throughout human history, recent human history is something I'd love to talk to you a bit about. If we can go back to the beginning of the 20th century on the German side, you've described how secret society is like the Tule society, lay the foundation for Nazi ideology. Can you through that lens from that perspective describe the rise of the Nazi party? Well, I guess we could start with what on earth is the Tule society? So the Tule society was a small German occult society. That is, they studied metaphysics for their fancy word for occultism. That appeared in Munich around 1917, 1918. The key figure behind it was a German esotericist by the name of Rudolf von Zabotendorf. Not his real name. His real name was Adam Rudolf Blower. He was adopted by a German nobleman and got the name von Zabotendorf. And I like to say that name. So I had this real thing about vague mysterious characters and show up and do things. And trying to figure out who these people are. So we're working up in the years, sort of prior to the first world war. So the decade or so prior World War I, he spends a lot of time in the Ottoman Empire. Turkey. There was none in the Ottoman Empire, which was a fairly tumultuous place because in 1908 and 1909 there was a the young Turk revolution. And you had a kind of military coup which effectively overthrew the Ottoman Sultan and installed a military junta, which would go on during the First World War to make its greatest achievement in the Armenian genocide. Eventually he created a genocidal military regime, which would lead the country into disastrous First World War, which would destroy the Ottoman Empire out of which modern Turkey emerges. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, we should take a tiny tangent here, which is that you refer to the intelligence agencies as being exceptionally successful. And here in the case of the young Turks being also very successful or in doing the genocide, meaning they've achieved the greatest impact, even though the impact on the scale of good to evil tends towards evil. It's one of those things that often comes out of revolutionary situations. Revolution is always always some always seek to make things better, don't they? We're going to take a bad old regime, you know, the the Sultan is, you know, and the Sultan was bad. I think it's first we say to Abdul Hamid II was not a wasn't called a red Sultan because of his favorite color type you think. And the idea is that they were going to improve. They were now going to the Ottoman Empire was a multinational empire. They're going to try to equalize and bring in the different groups and none of that happened. It became worse. In the same way that you could argue that the goal of Russian revolutionaries was to get rid of the bad old incompetent medieval Zarist regime and bring in a new great shining future. And it became even more authoritarian. And the crimes of the imperial Russian regime pale the significance of what would follow. In the same way that the crimes of Abdul Hamid pale to when you get to the young Turks. But that wasn't necessarily the intention. But on the bottom door was a German businessman who's who's working in this period and at the whole point here is that the Ottoman Empire in this period is is a hotbed of political intrigue. And all kinds of interesting things about it. The young Turk revolution is essentially a military coup, but it is plotted in Masonic lodges. I know technically Masonic lodges are never supposed to be involved in politics, but they are. Or you know, the large meeting breaks up and then you plot the revolution. So saying group of people, but it's not technically. But yes, and there's the Macedonia Resource Lodge in Tessaloniki was ground zero for plotting this military coup that was supposed to improve the empire. Zabotendorf is in one way or they're mixed up in all of this or at least he's an observer. Plus, he's initiated, he's initiated into the Masonic lodges. And interestingly enough, the fellow who initiates him into one of these Eastern lodges is a Jewish merchant by the name of Termudi. And who's also a cabalist. And it falls out. Zabotendorf is very, very interested in the occult. He's initiated into Eastern Masonic lodges in a period when those same lodges are being used as a center for political intrigue. He also apparently is involved in gun running, which in revolutionary periods is, you know, there's a lot of the money to be made off of that. So he's connected to various dark businesses in a tumultuous time with connections to politicized Freemasonry and the occult. Now, in the course of the First World War, he returns to Germany. He just shows up. And it would be my operative suspicion or theory that Zabotendorf was working for someone. I don't think he just pops up in Munich on his own accord. Why does he leave the Ottoman Empire and return to their place? Who's behind him? Well, maybe no one. But maybe someone, because he just seemed to have money at his disposal. And he comes into music and he basically takes over this small sort of occult study group. Now, the interesting thing is that the Tule Society is really just a branch of another existing, what's called, an aereosophist order. A thing called the German order or the Garmanen order, which is centered in Berlin. But for some reason, he doesn't want his group to be connected by name with the Garmanen order. So Tule Society, Tule in this case is a reference to supposedly a mythical Arctic homeland of the Aryan race. Apparently, there are all snow people who wander out of the snow at some point. It's kind of like a frozen Atlantis. So I mentioned these people, the aereosophists, who, which is, you have to practice saying that. So what are they? Well, they're a kind of racist, Germanic offshoot of theosophy. And I know I'm explaining one thing to explain something up, but there's no other way to do this. So Theosophy was 19th century, very popular and widely modeled, a cult belief that was founded by a Russian woman by the name of Helena Blavatsky. She was a medium psychic, she's supposed to got channelings from the Ascended Masters. The basic story there, they're all of the Ascended Masters, which are mystical beings that may or may not have once been human. They live inside the Himalayas, or they float among them on a cloud, and they guide the spiritual evolution of humanity. But Blavatsky did was to take Western esotericism and blend it with Hindu and Buddhist esotericism, which became very, very sexy in the West. Still is. You know, Buddhism attracts a lot of people because, well, it's Buddhism. It's different, see? So, you know, the Mahatmas, the Ascended Masters were sent to hear messages, despite the fact that she was later proven pretty much to be a fraud and writing the letters herself. Nevertheless, people still went along with this doctrine, and it's been widely modified and copied since then. So an idea in Theosophy was that human spiritual evolution was tied to physical evolution. So, you know, in the case of Blavatsky, Blavatsky never said that Aryans, white people, anything out this per superior. She talked about, you know, the different root races, but it's just, or a version of it, it's just total gobbledygoup that seems to include everyone in. I defy you to make much sense out of it. But in the early 20th century, there were different sort of, you know, one of the things that became fashionable, you know, not terribly popular. These are small movements with the idea that, well, you know, Germany is a new upcoming country. And part of this, I think, was really trying to define who the Germans were because, remember, the German Empire, Germany, as a political state, doesn't come into existence till 1871. Prior to that, Germany was a geographic expression, a vaguen, which described a large area in central Europe where a lot of people who, you know, wore leather shorts and, or something like that, and spoke similar German dialects were nominally Germans, but they might be Prussians or Bavarians or, you know, they came in all sorts of varieties and really, so there was no German identity. Something very similar happened in Italy in the same period. I mean, there weren't Italians. There were Sardinians and there were Romans and there were Sicilians, Umbrians, spoke, again, dialects of a similar language, but it never lived, you know, not since the Roman Empire under a single state and really didn't think of themselves as the same. So you have to create this artificial thing. You have to create Germans. There's no way Germany, with an emperor, and so we're all going to be Germans. Well, exactly what is that? Much of it is an artificial creation. You know, you have to decide upon some sort of standard dialect, okay, we'll decide what that is. You know, often dialect that only a few people actually speak and then they will be drilled into children's heads through state schooling programs. So I think this is the kind of milieu that it comes out of. People were trying to figure out what on earth Germans actually were and the need for some sort of common identity. And you know, that leads to everything like Wagnerian opera. Richard Wagner wanted to create a German mythical music. So he went back and stripped mind, old German myths and cobbled them together into a lot of people standing on stage singing. And that was his purpose, he was a nationalist, he was in many ways a kind of racialist nationalist. And this was his idea of trying to create out of bits and pieces of the past a new fangled form of German identity. So on the more mystical end of this, you had the idea is that, well, Germany must have been created for some special purpose because the Germans must be very special people. And we must have some sort of particular destiny. And then out of this, you know, the direction this is heading, well, we're all part of some sort of master race, with some sort of ties to some sort of great civilization in the past. Call it to Lee, call it whatever you want to be. They basically just invent things and try to attach those to the past. And so a reosophy was the arianized version of theosophy. And what this did was to take the idea that spiritual and physical evolution had led to the most advanced form of human beings, which were the arians and the most advanced group of them were, of course, the Germans. And this attracted appeal, I can keep in mind, again, this was not a mass movement. This is very much a fringe movement. Most people weren't aware of it and weren't particularly interested in it. But it had an appeal for those who already had a kind of esoteric bent in some form or another. And this is where things like the Garmann and Orden, the German order and their other groups. It was only one of many sort of grew out of. And what it was that the Tully society as a branch, the Tully gazelle shaft was supposed to do was to study this. It was an esoteric study group. And so people would get together and they'd talk about things, probably make more stuff up and all sort of work around this idea of German arians is the most advanced type of human beings and all the wonderful things that the future would hold. And the fact that this was in the midst of a war in which Germany was, again, fighting as they saw it for its existence, heightened those kinds of tensions as well. So my suspicion, again, is that the Boltendorf in terms of who was behind him, that he was essentially called back to Germany to work either for the Prussian political police or for some aspect of German intelligence and security to try to mobilize a cultism or esotericism for the war effort. Whereas, again, this is 1918, the war has gone on way too long, within a few months Germany will collapse. And it will collapse simply from the psychological exhaustion of the population. So this is almost like to help the war effort with a kind of propaganda, a narrative that can strengthen the will of the German people. But what's strengthen the will of some people? You have to try to appeal to different aspects of this. But the mystical aspect is one of those things that can be, it can have a very powerful influence and the idea is that we can come up with some kind of mystical nationalism. Maybe that's one to put it. A kind of mystical nationalism that can be exploited for the wikers at this point, you're kind of grasping its draws. And this is a whole period when the Germans are marshaling the last of their forces to launch a series of offensives on the western front, the peace offensive, which will initially be successful, but will ultimately fail and lead to a collapse in morale. But among the leadership of Germany, it was a recognition, it was that national morale was flagging. And one of the other things that was kind of raising its head was what had happened nearby a year, well, the Russian Revolution, which had now brought the idea, which brought out the solution to all of this, the idea of revolutionary Marxism. Here we need to remind ourselves as to where Marxism comes from, not Russia, Germany. Where was the largest Marxist party in Germany? And Marx probably expected the revolution to begin in Germany. Where else? I mean, the Soviet Union is not very industrialized, Germany is, and so that's why it would probably have 5% of the population as industrial workers in Germany, 40% of the population isn't that. So if any place was made for Marxism, it was Germany. I think that's why it caught on at East Germany so well because it had kind of come home. And it was a local belief, it wasn't something imported by the Russians, it was a German invention. So the Tule Society, one of the things you can see in this is the Tule Society was particularly involved in sort of anti-Marxist or anti-Bolshevik agitation. They saw themselves, the Bolton source saw them as this whole move, it was a counter to this, it was a kind of counter-Marxist movement. So we sort of tried to break that apart in a nuanced way, so it was a nationalist movement. The occult was part of the picture, occult racial theories. There's a racial component like the Aryan race. So it's not just the nation of Germany, and you take that and contrast it with Marxism, did they also formulate that in racial terms? Did they formulate that in national versus global terms? Like, how did they see this? Marxism formulates everything by class. People are categorized by class. You're the part of the proletariat or part of the bourgeoisie or just, you know, you're the part of the proletariat or just some sort of scum. Really, it needs to be swept into the dustbin of history, only workers count. And that was what would take someone who was a nationalist, would sort of drive them crazy because their ideas were trying to create a German people. You know, we're trying to create a common German identity. But what the Marxists are doing is they're providing Germans against each other by class. German workers hate the German bourgeoisie. German proletariat is opposed to German capitalist. We're all, you know, we're all trying to fight this war together. So that was why Marxism, particularly in the form of Bolsheism, was seen as unpatriotic. And of course, it was opposed to the war as a whole. You know, the idea that parroting Lenin was that the war was an imperialist war. And the only thing that was good that was going to come out of it is that the imperialist war, through all of the crises it was creating, would eventually lead to a class war. And that would be good because that would reconcile all of these things. But think of the two very different versions of this. The Bolshevikist version or the list, let's just call it the Marxist version of Germany. It was going to be a class society in which we're going to have to have some kind of civil upheaval, which will have Germans fighting Germans. Whereas the kind of mystical nationalism, the almost kind of religious nationalism that Zabotendorff and the Tuli society had hitched its wagon to, held that Germans are all part of a single racial family. And that's what must be the most important thing. And that these can be different ways of trying to influence people. It comes down to a matter of political influence. So in a sense, I think that what Zabotendorff and the Tuli society was trying to do, at least within Munich, was to use this idea of mystical nationalism as a potential rallying point for some part of the population to oppose these other forces, the key people fighting. The war is lost, though, by the end of November. You know, the Kaiser abdicates. And essentially, the Socialists do take over in Germany. That's the things come very, very close to following the Russian model. And you even get the Russian version or take on the Bolsheviks, which are the Spartasists who try and fail to seize power early on. But you do essentially end up with the Socialist Germany. And that then leaves, in the aftermath of the war, the Tuli society is sort of the odd man out. Although, they're still very closely connected to the army. Now, here's one of the things that I find interesting. When you get into 1919, who is it that's paying Zabotendorff's bills? It's the army. The one thing the German army is absolutely determined to do is to preserve its social position and power. And they're perfectly willing to dump the Kaiser. To do that. That's sort of this deal, which is made. In November of 1918, Kaiser's abdication, the proclamation of a German republic, which, you know, you just had this guy declare it. It wasn't really planned. There's the the Abert Groner Pact. Groner is the chief of staff, general staff at this point. Friedrich Abert is the chief socialist politician, basically, and they make an agreement. And the agreement, basically, is that the army will support Abert's government if Abert supports the army. And particularly, that means the continuation of the officer corps and the general staff in one form or another. So a deal is made. And that, of course, is what will eventually help defeat the spartanist uprising. Now, was the army doing the similar kinds of things that we've talked about with the intelligence agencies, this kind of same kind of trying to control the direction of the power? The German intelligence landscape in the First World War is obscure in many ways. There are lots of things that are going on. You've got the Germany has a military intelligence service called Obtailung or Section 3B. That's just plain military intelligence. You know, they're constantly trying to collect military information before the war about the weaponry and plans of the enemies. And then about what the operational plans were during the war. It doesn't really go much beyond that, though. The German foreign office runs a kind of political intelligence service. And that's the one which is much more involved in things like subsidizing subversion in Russia, which is one of the things that the Germans sign on to fairly early. Little diversion here in 1915, there is a Russian revolutionary who's lived much of his life in Germany who goes by the code name of Parvus and he essentially comes to the Germans in Constantinople interesting enough in Turkey. He's hanging around there the same times the Bowtendorf is there, which I find curious. So Parvus or Alexander Helpand to give his actual name. Can somebody goes, look, there's a lot of revolutionaries in Russia and there's a lot of mistrust with the regime. We think that the war will increase the contradictions in Russia society. And if you give me a lot of marks, I can finance this revolutionary activity. And through subversion, I can take Russia out of the war. While the Germans are facing a two front war, that sounds great. We'll use money in order to, but notice what they're doing. The German general staff, a very conservative organization, not a bunch of revolutionaries are going to finance revolution in an opposing country. They are going to finance revolutionary subversion to take Russia out of the war, which basically works. So that gives you another idea as to what the German military is willing to do. They're not revolutionaries, but they'll pay revolutionaries to subvert another regime. Now you've got the problem is that the revolutionary regime that your money helped bring to power is now threatening to extend into your country. So the whole question for the army and for others in Germany in 1919 is how to keep Germany from going Bolshevik, from an asense being hoisted by your own battard. So the Tule Society, I don't think is a huge part of this program, but it is a part of it. And it's all an effort to try to keep control. And that's why the army is financing them. That's even where the army at some point then supplies them with its own propagandists. So the Tule Society begins to create under subbotendorf's leadership what he called the rings of Tule. And these are satellite organizations that aren't the societies though, but they're kind of controlled and inspired by it. And one of those is the thing called German Workers Party. And the German Workers Party, again, is local, it's not large, it's not terribly influential, but what does it aspire to be? It aspires to be a party that will bring German workers away from the seductive influence of the Bolsheviks and into a more patriotic position, a patriotic. And the way that I describe this is that it's not an anti-communist organization, it's a counter communist organization. So you don't create something which completely opposes it, you create something which mimics it, which is ultimately what the German Workers Party will become is the National Socialist German Workers Party. Known as that term, socialist, and that is in my view what Nazism is from the beginning. It is a counter communist movement. And by the way, for people who don't know the National Socialist German Workers Party is also known as the Nazi Party. So how did this evolution happen from those that complicated little interplay, we should also say that a guy named Adolf Hitler is in the army at this time? yes. Well, he's going to come into this because remember said the army was going to supply its own propagandists to help the German workers party in the totally society do their work and the propagandists they supply them with is it is a man who the army trains sends two classes to learn the art of public speaking and propaganda and that fellow is corporal Adolf Hitler. So how does Adolf Hitler connect with the German workers party? Well, he's been in the army during the war the only regular job that he'd ever had kind of liked it. So you often get the view is that well at the end of the war he joined millions of other German soldiers who didn't have John. No, no, he stays in the army. He stays in the army till 1921. He's on the army payroll at the very time in which he is able to help him to set this up. What appears to have happened is this. Sebuttendorf had organized the totally society. That didn't had, you know, that had had tried to oppose. There's actually a brief period of time in which the communists actually take over Munich. The the Varian Soviet Republic which doesn't last very long and eventually the army and volunteers put this down. Well, that's going on by the way. Hitler is actually setting in the barracks in Munich wearing a red arm band because he is technically part of the soldiers who have gone over to the Varian Soviet Republic. He seems to have had flexible interests in this case. So once order is restored, so to speak, the army comes in and decide that well, one of the things we need, we need to have people who can lecture soldiers on on patriotic topics. And so there is a particular captain by the name of Karl Meier, who sort of spots Hitler. He later describes him as like a stray dog looking for a master. Hitler has a knack for public speaking. Other soldiers will listen to him. Yeah, some people can do that. Some people can. Meier decides that he's a good candidate for further training. So yes, they bring him in. They turn him into a what's called a Vaman, a kind of liaison man. He's an army propagandist. And then you've got this little outfit called the German Workers Party. And essentially what happens is that Hitler is sent in to take over leadership of that, which is what happens. He shows up. He attends the meeting. They're like 50 people there. By the way, the topic of that the first meeting he's at is how and why capitalism should be abolished, which is not what you might well expect. And because remember, the German Workers Party is trying to cast itself as a counter Bolshevism. So it's not saying that capitalism is great, which is important. Now capitalism is evil. We agree upon that. We just degree it. It has to be destroyed from a nationalist point of view as opposed from some sort of strange internationalist point of view. So Hitler is essentially, as I see it, sent in by the army as their trained man to assume leadership within this small party and to use it for the army's patriotic propaganda campaign. And it's a season doing so even to the name changed to the National Socialist or German Workers Party. I mean, really what sounds more red than that? So the interesting thing here is from where did anti-Semitism seep into this whole thing. It seems like the way they try to formulate counter Marxism is by saying the problem with capitalism and the problem with Marxism is that it's really Judeo-capitalism and, quote, Judeo-Bolshevism. From where did that ideology seep in? Well, that's a huge topic. Where does anti-Semitism come from? Well, let's start with that term itself, a term which I really grew increasingly to dislike because it doesn't actually say what it means. Anti-Semitism is anti-Jewism. That's all it is. I'm not sure whether there is ever existed a person who hated Jews, Arabs, and Maltese equally. That's kind of hard to imagine. But that's technically what that would mean because let's face it, most semis are Arabs. So if you're an anti-Semite, then you don't seem to distinguish Jews from Arabs. It makes no sense. The origin of the term is invented by guess what? An anti-Semite. Kind of the 1870s German journalist by the name of Wilhelm Mar, who is, wouldn't, you know, part Jewish himself and who decides that you really need a better term than Judenhaus, Jew hate, which was the term because that just sounds so, you know, in elegant, doesn't it? Okay, what do you want to call yourself? A Jew-hater or an anti-Semite? See, anti-Semitism, it's got that ism part of the end of it, which means it's a system of belief. Anything that has an ism must somehow be scientific and important. It's all part of the 19th century obsession with trying to bring science into something on one of the others. So we're going to get rid of Jew hate and we're going to turn it into anti-Semitism. And we're only going to be talking about Jews, but we'll never actually say that. And somehow the invention of a Jew-hater to disguise the fact that he's a Jew-hater even though he's partly Jewish by inventing the term anti-Semitism worked because everybody has bought it and repeated it ever since. So, you know, I don't know, maybe just because anti-Jewism would just be, is it too direct in some way? Is it what we have difficulty confronting actually what is it we're talking about? I do wish terms were a little bit more direct than self-explanatory, yeah. Jew hate is a better term. Well, the question then comes, what exactly do you hate about Jews? And a lot of this has to do with. If you go back part of the 19th century, if Jews were hated, they were hated for religious reasons. In Christian Europe, they're hated because they weren't Christians. And they existed as the only kind of significant religious minority, but other than that, they tended to live separately. They had little economic influence. Jews tended to live in stettles in the east, ghettos, elsewhere, they were involved in banking and business, but they sort of remained segregated from much of society. That changes when you get to the 19th century and with what's called Jewish emancipation. And that means that between about 1800 and 1850, most European countries dropped the various legal or social restrictions against Jews. They are assimilated into the general society. So ideally, you stop being a German Jew and you become a Jewish German. Those are two very different important concepts. And what that does, of course, is that it opens up the professions, business world, elsewhere. So Jews move, who had been largely within those realms to begin with, they already had a good deal of experiencing and experiencing in banking and business. And they move into those areas and professions to become quite visible. And that's what then creates anti-Semitism. Because in some way that is seen as part of the changes that have taken place. And there are a lot of things going on here. Part of it has to do with the kind of wrenching social and economic changes that took place within industrialization. So one of the things to keep in mind is that in the process of industrialization, just like today, whole classes of people were made extinct economically, craftsmen, for instance. So when factories came along and began to produce things with machines, all the crafts people who had made those things previously are now unemployed or go to work as wage labor and in factories. So there are winners and losers in industrialization. And what people saw in Germany and elsewhere is that among this new sort of rising capitalist elite, among these new professions, among the bureaucrats that are coming out of these burgeoning states, they were visibly a fair number of Jews. So in some way, the rise of Jews in the minds of many people were connected to all of the other bad things that were going on. Now the world was changing in a way we don't like. And seemingly the Jews are prospering while I am not. And that was during Germany and elsewhere, Jews became highly visible in the professions. They became very visible in banking. They became visible in legal profession. They became visible in the medical profession. And those are people that a lot of people would come in contact with, bankers, lawyers, and doctors. They were not the majority there, but vastly over-represented in terms of the general population, and especially within the cities. So in that sense, the roots of anti-Semitism to me is that Jews in Germany and elsewhere, and not just in Germany, by enemies, France, Britain, everywhere else, became identified with the bad changes that were taking place. But you also found that Jews were not only prominent among capitalists, they were also prominent among in the socialist movement as well. So one of the things you could look around, we returned to Germany in 1919 in the aftermath of World War I, and you look around in Bavaria or elsewhere, you tend to find that there are a lot of Jews in visible positions on the German left. Rose Luxembourg is but one example of that. You know, Oigen Levine, some of them came in from Russia. You know, when the Soviets send a representative to Germany in this period, it's Karl Radek, a Jew. So it wasn't difficult to exploit that to argue that just as the ranks of capitalism was full of Jews, the ranks of Bolshevism or of the revolutionary left were full of Jews, because you could easily go around and distinguish a great many of them. You know, they don't have to be the majority, they just have to be numerous, prominent, invisible, which they were. So this provided you a, in case of the propaganda of the German army, the type of stuff that Hitler was spewed out, they could put all the anti-capitalist rhetoric in there wanted to. The army was never going to overthrow capitalism, and the capitalism knew they weren't going to do it. So go ahead. You know, talk shit about us. We don't really care. That's not going to, because we know that the army would prevent that from happening. The way to then undermine the real enemy, it was the scene, the revolutionary left was to point out the Jewish influence there. I mean, look at Russia. Well, Lenin is up at Trotsky. There he is. Look, there's a Jew. There's one. Radek is a Jew. It wasn't hard to find him in that regard. You gave a lecture on the protocols of the elders of Zion. It's why they consider to be the most influential work of anti-Semitism ever, perhaps. Can you describe this text? Well, the protocols of the learned elders of Zion is probably one of the most troublesome and destructive works of literature that has ever emerged. And yet its origins remain obscure. So you get a whole variety of stories about where it came from. So the one story that is often used, that it was the work of the Okrona, the Russian secret police. And in particular, it was all crafted in 1904 and 1905 in Paris. There's a whole description of Piotr Rajkovsky, who was the, supposed to be the chief of the Okron at the time, was the man behind it, and other fellow, but the name of Matveg Olavinsky was the drafter of it, and that they had this document written by a French political writer from some decades back called dialogue and hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, which they were then adapting, usually it's argued that they plagiarized it into the protocols. And none of that is really true. I mean, the first part about it is that at the time, this supposedly took place at Rajkovsky, he wasn't working for the Okrona, he'd been fired, and he wasn't in Paris, and the whole situation which is described couldn't have taken place because the people who did it weren't there, it's a story. But it provides a kind of explanation for it. So the protocols emerge. So they always have to go back. This is one of the things that I have found always useful in research is go back to the beginning. Find the first place this is mentioned, or the first version, or the first iteration. Where does it start? So you go back to St. Petersburg, Russia, run 1903. There is a small right wing anti-Semitic newspaper published there called Znamia, banner. And it publishes in a kind of serial form, a work doesn't credit within the original author. And this is the first version of the protocols of the learned elders of Zion. But what it's actually describing is a Judeo-Musonic plot to rule the world. Those two terms are always combined together. And I think in the earlier version, there's far more mentions of Freemasons than there are Jews. And the publisher of Znamia is closely connected to a thing called the Union of Russian people, the Union of Russian men, which was ostensibly existed to defend the empire against subversion, and particularly against what it thought was Jewish subversion, when they also argue that the prominence of Jews in revolutionary movements somehow proved that this was in some way a Jewish revolution. But again, this is not a mainstream newspaper. It's not appealing to a mainstream population. Very people saw it, but this is where it appears. Now, keep in mind, that's two or three years before it's usually said to have been written. Or the other version is that there's this crazy priest by the name of Sergei Nielis, and he wrote it, or he actually handed it as an appendix to his work in 1905. Now, it was around before that. So Nielis didn't create it. It wasn't drafted in Paris in 1904 or 1905. It was serialized in an obscure right-wing Russian newspaper in 1903. And by the way, we should say that these are 24 protocols. Well, it varies. It varies. That are, I guess, supposed to be like meeting notes about the supposed cabal where the Jews and Freemasons are planning together a world domination. But it's like meeting notes, right? Protocol. What's your Russian term basically for notes of a meeting? Well, it's notes of a meeting, usually the goofiest things I've ever seen, because what you've gone here, it's not notes. No one takes notes from a meeting that way. What you've got is like the exposition of a bond villain, right? It's all of this, all of them are going to do this. And then the last thing you want to do is lay out your, if you get a plan for world domination, my suggestion would be don't write it down. So it's not notes of a meeting. It's, it's, again, it's another sort of narrative or story that's being told. It bears no resemblance to the dialogue and hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu. But what it is, the best thing, it's not particularly readable in some ways. There was an Italian writer and they wrote Cesare Michalis, who wrote a book translated in English called the non-existent manuscript. And what it is is that he takes the different versions, starting with the 1902, 1903 versions, and looks through the other ones. And he tries to, the process to reconstruct what he thinks the original might have been. But the other thing he does, which was fascinating to me, is that he takes this whole sort of initial text. And in bold type, he indicates the paragraphs, but more often sentences or phrases that appear to be identical from the Joli work. And they're just scattered throughout it. There's no particular grime or reason to it. You don't plagiarize that way. I mean, who does that? It's sentence here, sentence there, which is led to a peculiar theory of mine, which, of course, I will have to expound upon, which is that I think that the original author of the protocols was the same Maurice Joli. I think what someone stumbled across was a work which he wrote and never published, and which he just drew. It's exactly what someone would do, working from your own kind of material. Because I've, you know, I've written things and then taken what I've written and then sort of repackaged that into something else. -Sundance here, sentence there. same sort of thing comes out, only sort of bits and pieces of it remain. So why was Joli have done that? Joli was, we're talking about a man whose career basically span the 1850s to 1870s. He's an obscure figure. I'm not even totally sure he existed. I mean, it's one of those things you go looking for him. I love that you're a scholar of people they just kind of emerge out of like the darkness. They just they just come from nowhere. And there's the Acrona there also. And we should also say this was I guess the original would be written. I mean, what's the language of the original? Russian? Russian. But my hunch is that that's adopted from a French version. First of all, they're constantly harping on free maces, which was nearly as big an idea as if they're, if you go back to France in the 1890s, there's some big scandals. Well, there's the Drifus scandal that we got that. All right. Well, you've got a Jewish officer on trial for being a traitor. All right. So that was probably so you bring in the whole Jewish element, Jews is disloyal, Drifus case 1894. Earlier, you had the Panama scandal, which was this huge investment scandal when the Panama Canal company in Paris collapsed. And again, many of the major players in that work Jewish financiers. And then you've got the taxal hoax. So the taxal hoax was the work of this guy. His real name was, I think, Joghampage. He was kind of a French journalist. He started out writing porn. So I mean, he wrote things like sex lives of the popes and you know, the erotic Bible and various things of that kind. He was a Catholic, broke with the Catholic church, wrote bad stuff about the popes. And apparently became a free Mason for a while. And then supposedly recanted his evil ways went back to the church and then under the name Leo Taxel began writing his whole series of articles, basically arguing that there was a Masonic satanic conspiracy run by the way by an American Albert Pike. And this also included child sacrifice. It's got Pizzagate. And it is wealth by a high priestess, Diana von. And so there's like child sacrifice, you know, weird, roby, bohemian, grove stuff. And the free Mason's or devil worshippers going back to the Knights Templars. And so there's a thing called the devil in the 19th century in the secrets of free Masonry. And this became a bestseller in France. So France is just obsessed below all these all these kinds of conspiracy. So evil satanic free Masons, evil Jewish financiers, Drifus. This is the brew where all of this comes out. I want to figure out how free Masons and Jews get connected together. France is the place where this happens. Now, Taxel, or Jogampage, eventually pulls another interesting thing in this around 1897. Critics argue that he's making this stuff up and demand that he present Diana von, suppose satanic high priestess, toddler killer. And he says, oh, we're going to have a press conference. She'll appear and say all of this stuff as she returns to the church and you know, possibly becomes a nun. And so people show up, you know, I've figured some of the Catholic Church shows up and he does no Diana von and Dogampage goes, it's all a hoax. I made it up. You're all a bunch of idiots for believing it. Okay. You, you members of the church, especially just just about gullible, you know, morons you are. And that's it. He confesses it to this day, however, you will find people who will insist that it's actually true because they desperately want it to be true. But this is, I think, the milieu that, I like that word, apparently, that this comes out of and this is this is this whole kind of unhealthy mix. So France, to me, is the only place that in the decade preceding it that something like this would be concocted. So he's either created by some sort of unknown person there, but I still think that even though he dies in like 1879 that that in in in Maurice Jolie's troubled career, he went from being an opponent of French emperor Napoleon III, which is what his which is what the whole dialogue was written against. And then he was for a time a close political ally of a French politician by the name of Adolf Cremieux. So Adolf Cremieux, well, what's he got going for? And while he was kind of a radical politician, he was an opponent of Napoleon III. He was a free mason. Oh, and he was Jewish. In fact, at one point, I think he was actually the head both of the Scottish right in France. And I have an important figure in the alliance, Israeli, okay, the Jewish organization in France. So he was publicly very prominently Jewish and Masonic. So someone else who would have linked them to get Jolie as he did with virtually everyone. This is a guy whose life largely consisted of dual threats and fist fights. So he gets angry at Cremieux. And it's exactly the type of thing that he might write to vent his spleen about it. But he died. Probably a suicide. That's kind of difficult to tell. In obscurity, his son seems to have inherited most of his literary works. And his son then worked for New became a journalist to work for newspapers in France in the 1890s, but was also associated with some people on the fringes of the Okrona or the Russian press in France. So one of the little things that had happened by this time is that France and Russia had become allies, even though their political systems were completely incompatible. And so the Russians were using money to subsidize French newspapers that were championing the alliance between the two Russian meddling. Okay, now they're just paying to have the right kind of newspapers come out. So there's this whole connection between the kind of Russian journalistic world and the French journalistic world and all of these scandals which are going on and jolly son and then you know 10 years down the road, this thing pops up in a newspaper in St. Petersburg. That's where I think the origins lay. Why do you think it took off? Why do you think it grabbed a large number of people's imaginations and even after it was shown to be not actually what it's supposed to be, people still believe it's real. Well, it doesn't take off immediately. Okay, never receives any kind of wide. I mean, nobody much reads the first edition of it. When it's re-edited, it keeps getting there are something like 18 or 19 different versions as it goes through. I mean, it gets, you know, people leave this protocol out or leave another one. As time goes on, there's more and more emphasis on Jews and less and less on Freemasons. So it's sort of, and the whole thing could have begun as an anti-masonic tract. I mean, you could leave Jews out of it entirely and just turn it into a Masonic plot to rule the world. But let's just throw them in as well since the two things are already being combined elsewhere. It doesn't become a big deal until really after the first world war because the initial versions of it are all in Russian and, you know, let's face it, well, that's widely read in Russia. It's not much read anywhere else. It's a different alphabet. Nobody can even see what it means. So it has no particular influence outside of Russia. But then you get to 1919 and you get all these different versions of it. So suddenly you get two English versions in the US, another English version in Britain, a German edition, a French edition, a Dutch edition. Everybody is coming up with these things. So it's not until I mean, the immediate aftermath of the first world war that this metastasizes and it begins to show up in all of these different foreign editions. And I think that it just has to do with the changes that have taken place during the war. One of the things that people began looking for was that why was there a war? I would just have this whole disastrous war and the world has been turned upside down. So there has to be some kind of explanation for that. I don't know. And one of the things this offer to see, there's this evil plan. There's this evil plan that has been put into motion and this could possibly explain what's taking place. The reason with the protocols were I think widely bought then and where they still are in many ways is the same reason that the taxal hoax I was talking about was because it told us story that people wanted to believe. So in France in the 1890s, there was widespread suspicion of Freemasons. It was seen as a somewhat sinister secretive organization, certainly secretive. And there was also, you know, the same sort of generalized prejudices about Jews, clannish, distinct, too much influence, all of the things that went on. So it was sort of easy to combine those two things together. And even though taxal admits it was a hoax, there were those who argued that this is just too, it's too accurate. It describes things too completely to be a hoax. And then you get the same arguments. In fact, I've heard the same arguments with a protocol. I don't even buy this as an example of plagiarism, because you can't actually prove what's being plagiarized in any sense. To me, the protocols are a prime example of what I call a turd on a plate. These things crop up. I have to explain that. But afterwards, what has it turned on a plate? Well, it turned on a plate is a turd on a plate. Suppose you come in and there's a plate sitting on the table and there's a turd on it. Now, the first thing you're going to what is, is that a turd? Is it a human turd? Where did it come from? Who's, why would someone poop on a plate? There are all these questions that come to mind. It makes no sense. But that's what you come, it's just there, right? I don't know where it came from. I don't know why, but there's a turd on a plate, and that's what the protocols are. They're just there. But the reality is, just like with a turd on a plate, you take a picture of that in modern day, and it becomes a meme, becomes viral, and becomes a joke on all social media, and now it's viewed by tens of millions of people or whatever. It becomes popular. So wherever the turd came from, it did captivate the imagination. It did speak to something. Well, is it seemed to provide an explanation? Can you just speak to Jew hatred? Is it just an accident of history? Why was it the Jews versus the Freemasons? Is it the collective mind searching for a small group to blame for the pains of civilization? And then Jews just happen to be the thing that was selected at that moment in history? It goes all the way back to the Greeks. Let's blame them. So one of the first occasions you find the idea that Jews are a distinct, mean-spirited, nasty people goes back to and a Greco-Egyptian historian named Manito. This is around, I think, 300 BC. Early. Can't even rope the Romans into this one. So Manito is trying to write a history of the dynasties of Egypt. I think his history of dynasties of Egypt still was one of the basic works in this, but he tells this whole story which essentially describes the kind of first blood libels that the Jews to celebrate their various religious holidays would capture Greeks and fatten them up in the basement and then slaughter them and eat them or drain their blood or do something. Yeah, it's just the sort of earlier version of that kind. Also, I think it repeats the sort of Egyptian version of the Exodus out of Egypt, which is quite different than the biblical version. In this case, the Egyptian, you know, they worked as, you know, they stole all the stuff out of the Egyptian's houses and ran off into the desert. The Jews stole all the stuff and ran off. Yeah, Hebrews. Hebrews robbed the Egyptians. They were taken in. You know, we took them in and sheltered them, gave them jobs, and then they like stole all the jewelry and ran away. We didn't even chase them. We were glad to see them gone. So it's a different, it's a different narrative on that story. But it essentially portrays the Jews as being hostile. You know, they don't like other people. They're contemptuous of other people's religions, the rest of it. And see, the Greeks tended to think of themselves as being extremely cosmopolitan. Now, the Greeks run across people worshipping other gods. They go, "Oh, this is just our gods," and they're different names. Okay, everything was sort of adjusted into their landscape. So you end up with that kind of of hostility, which was there at the time. And that was probably influenced also by some of these earlier rebellions that had taken place in Egypt. You know, during the Roman period, you not only have the Judean rebellion and 70 AD, but you have a couple of other uprisings in North Africa. And very bloody affairs. And in some cases, Jews began massacring other people around them. They start killing the Greeks. The Greeks start killing them. So there was a fair amount of, from that periodonic, a certain amount of bad blood of mutual contempt between Greeks or between hellens, between the people who became Hellenized as the Romans would be, and the Jews. And the Romans also seem to have developed much of that idea. They considered Judea as being horrible place to have to govern, inhabited by a stubborn, obnoxious people. Not well liked. So that's really where you see the earliest version of that. And the reasons for it would be complicated. What you could say is that going back to Manito and to the Roman period, Jews, Judeans frequently experienced difficulties, conflicts with other people living around them. And part of that probably had to do with the diaspora, which was the movement. Well, you get the idea, the Romans came and he kicked everybody out, which they didn't. Jews had been leaving Judea since it was a poor, limited area and moving into areas like North Africa, Egypt, or an acre all the way into southern France. They moved widely around the Roman Empire. So that sense of both distinctness and hostility existed since ancient times. So it wasn't just the attitude of the church towards Jews was mixed by, well, one of the ideas, of course, is that at the end of time, just before the second coming, one of the signs, how are we going to know that Jesus is going to return and the world is going to end? Well, the Jews will all convert. There will be a mass conversion, they'll see the light. Now, so there have to be Jews around to do that, or we won't, you know, it's like a canary in a coal mine. You have to have them there to tip it off. So that was one of the arguments is to why within the church, as to why Jews would not be forcibly converted, beyond the fact that it's just kind of bad policy to forcibly convert people because you don't know whether it's sincere, but they need to be preserved as a kind of artifact, which will then redeem itself at the end of time. It's not something which is encouraged, it predates Christianity. And then Christianity, of course, in its own way, just sort of plagiarizes the whole Jewish thing, doesn't it? I mean, I hesitate to use that term, but that's what you do. It's just like, well, we're the Jews now, okay? You used to have a unique relationship with God, but now it's been passed over to us. And so, you know, thanks, thanks for the Bible. You know, I can remember that, and my mom's side, I was periodically exposed to Sunday school. And pretty much the Old Testament was always presented as if somehow it was the, you know, the history of like, with lack of better term, you know, Europeans in some way, it was sort of a Christian history, it was all the prequel to that. And there'd be some sort of, first the term Hebrew was always used, never Jews. So, you know, the ancient Hebrews, and somehow the Hebrews just sort of became the Christians, and I don't know, the Jews just got, they didn't get a memo or something. So it's basically like Christianity, the prequel is the Old Testament. But they just sort of take over. Okay. We have the special dispensation now. Thank you very much. You're an artifact. So it's interesting. So this whole narrative that I would say is that was kind of like a viral meme started as you described in 300 BC and just carried on various forms and morphed itself and arrived after the Industrial Revolution. into it, in a new form to the 19th and 20th century, and then somehow captivated everybody's imagination. I think that modern anti-Semitism is very much a creation of the modern world and the industrial revolution. It's largely a creation of Jewish emancipation. It's the nasty flip side of that. All of the restrictions that are thrown off, but now also you become the focus of much more attention than what you had before. Prior to that, you had the kind of ghettoization which worked both ways. There were rabbis who praised the ghetto as a protection of Jews against the outside world, because inside we can live our life as we wish and we're unmolested. Whereas if we were the great fears that if we were sort of absorbed into this larger world, we'll lose our identity. That sort of question comes up in the 18th century and things like the Haskell movement in Germany. The German Jews were always at the cutting edge of assimilation and modernity. Moses Mendelssohn was an example of that, arguing that we just need to become Germans. As much as possible, synagogue should be looked like Lutheran churches, everything should be given in good German. That's the way we need to become Jewish Germans. We don't want to become a group of people who are part in that way. And that is created great tensions ever since. You know, one of the essential points that seems to me in anti-Semitism, anti-Jewism, is that all the Jews are together. Is that one of the things? Okay, they're always talking about as if they're collective Jews this, Jews that, as if it's a single undifferentiated mass of people who all move and speak in the same way. From my personal experience, not to being Jewish, I've incredibly diverse. In many ways, really, one of the things that anti-Semitism proposes is a continuity or singularity of Jewish identity that never existed. Just like you said, in one hand, there's a good story. In the other hand, there's the truth. And oftentimes, the good story wins out. And there's something about the idea that there's a cabal of people, whatever they are, in this case, our discussion is Jews seeking world domination, controlling everybody, is somehow a compelling story. It gives us a direction of a people's, to fight, of a people's to hate on which we project our pain, because life is difficult. Life for many, for most, is full of suffering. And so we channel that suffering into hatred towards the other. Maybe if you can just zoom out, what are you from this particular discussion, learn about human nature that we pick the other in this kind of way? And we divide each other up in groups, and then construct stories, and like constructing those stories, and they become really viral and sexy to us. And then we channel the hatred. We use those stories to channel hatred towards the other. Well, yeah, Jews don't the only recipient of that. I mean, anytime you hear people talking about Jews, disser that, white people, disser that, black people, disser that, Asians, disser that, were it, they're an undifferentiated mass, who apparently all share something in common. Well, then nobody's really thinking. The other thing you'll find is that people who will express those views when press will argue that, oh, well, if they actually know anybody from those groups, those are okay. It's like Nazis. This isn't okay. They were always constantly making exceptions and one for what they actually met an actual human being, and they seem to be fairly normal. Well, they were okay. So what it was that they hated were actual people for the most part. It was just this kind of Goliwag vision that they had them. You're not even talking about real people. I don't know. What does that tell you about human nature? Well, okay. In 70 odd years, what have I learned about my fellow creatures? One, I don't actually understand them any better than I ever did. In fact, less so. I would say this. When I was 17, I thought that I had the world much more figured out than I do now. Completely eluded. But, you know, it seemed to make much more sense and I could categorize things. Basic take upon human beings. Most people, most of the time, are polite, cooperative, and kind until they're not. And the exact tipping point and moment in which they go from one to the other is unpredictable. God, that's brilliantly put. Speaking of the tipping point, you gave a series of lectures on murderers, crimes in the 20th century. One of the crimes, the described is the Manson family murders. And that combines a lot of the elements of what we've been talking about and a lot of the elements of the human nature that you just described. So can you just tell the story at a high level as you understand it? Manson really. What do you begin with Charles Manson? Who's the key element in this? And Charles Manson, for most of his life, up until the time, ladies around 33, is an unexceptional petty criminal. In and out of prison, reform school from an early age, not really associated with violent crimes. He did stuff like steel cars, right, bad checks, became an unsuccessful, pimped drug dealer. So around 1967, he gets out of his latest stint in federal lockup and terminal island, their Los Angeles, California. By that time, he's learned how to play the guitar, has ambitions to become a musician, and also has proclaimed himself a Scientologist. Not that he ever seems to have brought, but that's what he would claim that he was. Kind of, you know, self-educated himself in prison to a certain degree. And so when he gets out of prison in '67, he was a model prisoner. He behaved himself, you know, and seemed you can sort of imagine his life is going into completely different direction. And here again, I'm going to say something kind of good about Charles Manson, which is that he actually was a decent singer. If you really sort of listen to some of the stuff he did, he, you know, he's not a great singer, but he could have, you know, other people got recording contracts with less talent than he had and make a play guitar. The Beach Boys actually do record one of his songs without him. How would you evaluate Hitler's painting? On compared to Charles Manson. Well, you're supposed to say it's terrible. Okay. Okay. It looks average to me. Yeah. It's landscape. I mean, if you didn't know it was Hitler, yeah, would it, would it, would it, would you, I don't know what people say about it. Sorry for the distraction. It's just, you know, it's just, it's an average painter. That's what it was. Something like crazy genocidal maniac paintings that you don't have really have those. So Manson, you could have done that. He probably could have, you know, he made certain inroads into the music industry. And if you hadn't been such a weirdo, he might have gotten further with it. But his life could have taken a different turn. So this is one of the questions I have. Where did a guy who becomes, who's an unexceptional career petty criminal. Suddenly emerge into some sort of criminal mastermind, a Sven Golly, who can bend all of these people to his will and get them to go out and commit murder. That's a, that's a real shift that you have. So the first thing it kind of could tell you that something odd is going on is he gets out of prison in LA County. And he's supposed, you know, he's on parole. You know, parole is supposed to have a job, not supposed to leave the jurisdiction of their parole. He has straight for the Bay Area violates parole right off the bat. Two weeks later, he drifts into the parole office in the Bay Area, whereupon he should have been arrested and sent back to terminal island. But instead, they just assign him a parole. I don't know, maybe things were easier then in some way. So he gets assigned a parole officer, Michael Smith. Michael Smith is initially handling a number of parolees. But after a while, once he takes on Mance and he only has one parole, he's supervising Charlie Mance, which is odd. And he also find out that Michael Smith in addition to being a parole officer is a graduate student at the University of California, studying group dynamics, especially the influence of drugs on gangs and groups. And he's also connected to the hand edge. very free clinic, which is a place where the influence of, because hey, Dashberry had lots of drugs and lots of groups. So Charlie Manson never gets a regular job, hangs around with young girls, ex-cons, engages in criminal activity, is repeatedly arrested, but nothing ever sticks for the next couple of years. So who gets that type of thing? Who gets it get out of jail free card? In formats. So here is what, again, this is speculation, but Manson at some point after he got out of prison is getting this treatment because he is recruited as a confidential informant. Who? That's the interesting question. So probably not for any local police departments. My best suspicion is probably the federal bureau of narcotics, precursor to the DEA, you know, federal parole, federal parole officer come graduate student and drugs and group dynamics. And eventually with permission, he goes back down to L.A. and what is he part of when he's there? Well, he's on the fringes of the music industry, not so much, you know, he's the Wilson's and elsewhere, which also brings him to the fringes of the film industry. So one of the things, if you're sort of looking in terms of Hollywood music industry, elites in the flow of, oh, and he's also dealing in drugs and girls. So an early version of Jeffrey Epstein, yeah, Manson distracted lots of underage runaways and train them, use them also associating with biker gangs who produce the drugs, etc. So that's part of what he's, he's an, he's an informant in the movement of drugs basically within the film music industries. And he's given him pretty much a kind of free reign at that point. What then happens in August of 1969 is that there are these murders, you know, first Sharon Tate and her friends in the C.A.L.O. drive. I think everybody is probably pretty much heard that story before and of course the question is, why C.A.L.O. drive, why Sharon Tate for Koski and the rest of them that he had some, Manson was familiar with the place he had been there before. Because of the family had been there before. So he knew where it was, it wasn't an easy place to find. May the way that that house, the house, the original house is no longer there, but the same sort of property in a house is built there. And if you didn't know where it was, it's not some place, let's just go for a drive in the Hollywood Hills and murder people in a house. Well that isn't the one that you would come across. There are lots of connections there. Voitek for Koski, who was one of the people killed at the C.A.L.O. drive house was involved in drug dealing. That's a possible connection between the two, probably a fairly likely one. Probably not unfortunate Sharon Tate at all. She was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time. Her husband might have been, you never know. And then the next night after the slaughter there, which by the way, Manson is not at, so this is one of the interesting things about it is Charles Manson doesn't kill any of these people. He has crimes supposedly ordering the killings to be done. He supposedly thought that the killings at the Tate House were sloppy and he was gonna give everybody a crash course in how you apparently commit seemingly random murders. So the next night he takes a group of people over to the lobbyonka's house in a different section of L.A. and you've got Lino and Rosemary, lobbyonka, guy is a grocer, his wife runs a dress shop, upper middle class, and they're bound gagged and hacked to death and as at the Tate residence, various things like Piggy or Written, various messages, just in blood things that are supposed to look like cats paws because one of the groups trying to be framed for this was the idea was the Black Panthers. So the general story that comes out in the subsequent trial is that this was all a part of something called Helter Skelter, which Manson supposedly was an idea that sounds like a Beatles song that's where he got it from. He thought the Beatles were talking to him through their music and that there was going to be an apocalyptic race war and this was all part of a plan to set this off. So this is why the Black Panthers were trying to be implicated in this although how it was supposed to do that is never really explained. Here is what I think was really happening. What really happened and how I think it fits together. Before Sharon Tate and her friends or the lobbyonka's were killed, there was a murder by members of the family of some of the same people involved in the later killings of a musician drug manufacturer by the name of Gary Hinman. So Manson again was involved in the drug trade and Hinman made them. He was a cook basically and he brewed them up in his basement, sold the drugs to Manson who sold them to biker gangs like the straight Satan's which was one of the groups that he used and they distributed them elsewhere. Well one day the straight Satan show up and complained that the last batch of meth or whatever it was that they got from Manson, he had made some of their brothers very very ill and they were quite unhappy about that and they wanted their $2,000 back. Manson had gotten those drugs from Gary Hinman. So he is unhappy and he sends Bobby Bose away and a couple of the girls over to Hinman's place to get the money from him. As the story is related I think by Susan Atkins, Hinman denied that there was anything wrong with his drugs and refused to pay up which led to an interrogation torture session in which he was killed. And the idea was here, what are we going to do with that? So one of the other groups that Hinman had sold drugs to were guess what? People associated with a black panther so we'll leave these things up and they will do it. So it's Bobby Bose away who then takes Hinman's car and decides to drive it up the coast. By the way with a bloody knife with Hinman's blood and hair on it and blood on the seats in the car and then he pulls it off the road and decides to sleep it off and he gets busted. So find Hinman's body, find Bose Lee and Hinman's car with a bloody knife with him. Yeah he gets arrested. So Bose Lee was very popular with some of the girls. There's consternation in the family that Bobby has been arrested. So how can we possibly get Bobby out of jail? We cat killings. So if we go kill more people and we make it look the same then see Bobby couldn't possibly have done it. Now see he just borrowed the car, okay he stole the car but the knife was already in, he didn't have anything to do with this. So that to me makes the most sense out of what followed. How often do people talk about that theory? That's an interesting theory. Well it's there. It's just not the one that locally I wanted to go with health or scout because it was again it was a story that people could understand. And it was sensational and it would catch on. Also another probable issue in that was that his star witness was Linda Kasebian. Linda Kasebian, she was present at both the Tate and La Bianca murders. She didn't participate in the killings according to her. She sort of drives the car but everybody else talked about what had happened. Well okay she turns state evidence and gets total immunity and it's largely in her testimony that all the rest of the case is based. Now if you start throwing into the equation that she proclaimed her love for Bobby Bosele and that she was the chief proponent of the copycat killings, well then that would get messy. Now there's one guy at the center of this. It's Charles Manson. He ordered all of this done to ignite a race war even though how would any of that do it? Okay. So that doesn't make sense. But he is nevertheless at the center of this because he's the glue of the family. He exerts a tremendous amount of psychological control over them. How was he able to do that so I don't tell you like what because he said he was a petty criminal. It doesn't use pretty prolific in his petty crimes like he did a lot of them. He had a lot of access to LSD. Okay. Okay. Which he started getting at the free clinic in San Francisco. So lots of floating around. descriptions of the family at spawn ranches that people were basically taking acid on a daily basis, which by the way was also a potential problem with Linda Cassabee and this testimony, since she also admitted to being high most of the time and also thinking she was a witch. All right, so you want to put her, okay, where do you want to go with that? See, if Manson wasn't Manson, if he hadn't acted like such a complete, if he hadn't actually acted like the crazed hippy psycho goofball that Bugliosi painted him as being, then Cassabee's testimony wouldn't have been as strong because you could. I mean, the first thing against her is you've got an immunity for telling the story of the prosecution once. Yeah, that's a little iffy, and we wouldn't even bring in the witch and the drugs and being in love with Bobby Bosel, all right, so if Manson had been dressed like you sitting there in a suit and, you know, and had behaved himself and spoken normally, things might have, this isn't to say that he wasn't guilty as hell. So what he supposedly did was to inspire all of these killings. And I think that's probably, you know, sort of beginning with the Hinman killing. He told them to go over there and get the money, one way or the other. I don't know if there's clear where they told them if you don't get the money, kill him, but Hinman's dead. And then it might also seen the value in terms of having copycat killings as a way of throwing off any other kind of blame. The other story you get is that one of the people who had lived at the Ciello House for sharing tape was before it was a record producer by the name of Terry Melcher. Melcher supposedly is the general story goes, had Welshed on a deal with Manson in terms of a record contract. You know, he screwed over Manson and some sort of a record deal and Manson wanted to get revenge and sent him to kill everybody in the house. Which again doesn't make him much of a sense. One Manson knew that Melcher wasn't living there anymore. He probably knew where Melcher was living. If he wanted to get Melcher, he could have found him. It wasn't that difficult to do. And so that's, it's not revenge on Terry Melcher that drew him there. He was familiar with the house. So if the idea was to simply commit random killings that would throw that would muddy the whole waters with the Hinman killing, then you might pick some place you knew of. You knew the place with running out there would be someone there. You really didn't care. In the same way that the La Bianca seemed to have been Manson was familiar with that because it supposedly had been the scene of creepy crawling. This is little interesting things that the family would be taught to do, creepy crawling. Yes, when you sneak into somebody's house at night, while they're there asleep or when they're not there and you move things around. So when they get up in the morning or they come home, they'll suddenly notice that someone has been in their house, which will freak them out, which is the whole point of that. But it doesn't seem like the murder or the creepy crawling was the creepy crawling made to be. But this doesn't seem like the murder, like some of the other people you've covered like the zodiac killer, the murder is the goal. Maybe there's some psychopathic artistry to the murder that the zodiac killer had and the messaging behind that. But it seems like with at least the way you're describing it with Charles Manson family, the murder was just the they just had a basic disregard for human life and the murder was the as a consequence of operating in the drug underworld. So Manson set up a kind of base, a thing called the spawn movie wrench, which was an old movie wrench out on the northwest edge of L.A. And they just kind of camped out there. He used the girls in particular, Squeaky From, to get the owner or operator. I think George spawned to let them hang out there. And basically she slept with him and he was perfectly happy to let them hang out. They also had a place out of the desert that they had. They dealt in credit card fraud stolen cars. It was kind of a shop shop that they ran out of the place. So you had a fairly good little criminal gig going, which with the protection he had probably would have the one thing they couldn't cover him on was murder. So you think there was if he was an informer, you think there was still a connection between DA, FBI, CIA, whatever, with with him throughout this until you come to murder. The real question is there is a book written on this by Tom O'Neill, Colqueos. And not a certain thing. It's the easiest thing to get through. There's a lot of material there. I don't think O'Neill necessarily knows what to make of some of the stuff he came up with. But he does a very good job of sort of demolishing the whole Buglio scenario. And one of the people he mentions is a name that I had run into elsewhere. And so I really paid attention to it when I saw it again. And the name is Reeve Whitson. Reeve Whitson shows up on the fringes even though he has no judicial function. He sort of hangs around Buglioci in the prosecution. He's some sort of advice. He's just kind of there. In the same way that he was one of these guys, you know, he grew his hair kind of long war bell bottoms hung around the music community and elsewhere in Hollywood, but no one could tell you exactly what he did. I know what he did later, but a decade later he shows up as a CIA officer in Central America. Hmm. So Reeve Whitson later in his career at least is CIA. What was he in 1969? What is he doing in this? Uh, the other thing about it is he appears to have been the person who calls this little question of when the bodies at Ciello Drive are discovered. So the general story is that Sharon Tates Housekeeper shows up around 830 in the morning, flies the bloody scene and goes screaming next door. But there was another fellow who knew I think the owner of the house is a photographer. Last time we had Tommy, he gets a call earlier in the morning saying that there had been murders. There. And the person he was calling him is Reeve Whitson. So someone had been at the house before the bodies were discovered and they had not called the police. So I don't know what's going on there, but he'd say, um, it's a curious kind of situation. And Manson in a lot of ways just kind of self emulates himself. I mean, his behavior with the trial is bizarre. It's threatening. It's disruptive. You know, he's got his girls out on the street carving exes in their forehead carrying knives. One of the attorneys initially his attorney, Ron Hughes becomes Van Halton's attorney and he figures out that the three girls supposedly on Charlie's insistence are going to confess. And they're confessed that it was all their idea and Charlie had nothing to do with it. Hughes doesn't like this because his defense for her is that she was under his influence. And therefore not responsible for her own actions. He was having psychic control. So he refuses to go along with it. There's a break in the trial. He goes camping up in the mountains with some friends. Disappears during a rainstorm and then some months later his decomposed remains are found. Now rumors, always the rumors. Okay. What would history be without rumors? Hell that he members of the family they were pissed off at Ron Hughes because he messed up Charlie's idea to get him off and so they killed him. Maybe they did maybe drowned. That's absolutely impossible to say. You got that kind of story. There's a guy named Juan Flynn who was an employee at the spawn ranch. Didn't like Manson. Hell Manson responsible for the murder of his boss. He would testify that Manson told him that he had ordered all the killings and that Manson also admitted that he had killed 35 people. Maybe he did. On the other hand, Juan Flynn didn't like him and he had no other than his word, had no real proof of what he was saying. So please understand me in this case is that unlike some people who argue that Charles Manson got a raw deal, I don't think that's the case. I think that he influenced tremendous influence over the people there. Through drugs, through sex was another frequent component in it. He had a real whammy over long of these people's minds. I'm not sure how. That still kind of puzzles me. He was a scrawny guy, and he wasn't physically intimidating. I mean, even a lot of women wouldn't be physically intimidated by him, but he nonetheless had this real psychological power. And if you look around him, the male followers he had wasn't a very big guy. So he could get people to do what he wanted. And again, to me, the simplest explanation for this is that it began with the henman killing and probably on Manson's instigation, the others were copycat killings to throw off what was going on. That would, if I was a cop, that's what I would focus on because that seems to make the most sense. It's still as fascinating that he's able to have that much psychological control over those people without having a very clear ideology. So it's a cult. Yes, the great focus on Charlie the leader, the excessive devotion. But there's not an ideology behind that, like something like Scientology or some kind of religious or some kind of, I don't know, utopian ideology, nothing like this. No, I think that Manson again was essentially a criminal. He had a sociopathic mindset and he hated upon a pretty good deal. Yeah, but like, how do people convince anybody of anything with the, with the cult? Usually you have either an ideology or you have maybe personal religion, like you said, sex and drugs. But underneath that, can you really keep people with sex and drugs? You have to kind of convince them that you love them in some deep sense. Like there's a, like a commune of love. You have a lot of people there in the cult. They don't, they have some sort of, what we like to call dysfunctional families. Yeah. A lot of the females in particular seem to have come from, you know, more or less middle-class families, but those are full of dysfunction. You know, their parents didn't love them. They were semi-runaways and now they had this whole family. A lot of the younger women had children. You know, some of them by Manson, some of them by the others, they sort of bonded together. And again, we return to that, that pull towards belonging that gets us humans into trouble. So it does seem that there were as a few crimes around this time. So zodiacular. Well, California. But I'm from. So I remember this period vividly. Okay. So by the way, the, the tatelabianca killings occurred on my birthday. The year I graduated from high school. So I remember this. Happy birthday. A term which has been used for that. There's a writer with the name of Todd Wood, whose toy, I wish I'd come up with this killer fornya. And which is sort of a chronicle of the serial killers and disappearances in the late 60s and 70s. So you've got the zodiac. You've got otherwise. I mean, you know, I hate to say it. I'm not trying to be flippin' about, but I mean, young female hitchhikers were disappearing an alarming rate in Northern California. Their bodies that have never been attributed. Some think that the the the zodiac's victims, but it was a dangerous time. Edmund Kemper, you know, the co-ed killer was was another one. There were a lot of creepy psychopaths running around. I don't know whether it was something in the water or what was going on, but it was a menacing in some cases. Hitchhiking, especially if you were alone and female was not something you wanted to do in much of the Golden State, certainly not if around the Bay Area. So there are a lot of these strange sort of killings that we're going on. The Zodiac is, it's one of those things where you have these people who have theories about it. And if you don't share their theory, then, you know, you're part of the problem in some form or another. So I'm not sure, for instance, the Zodiac killings were all committed by the same person. I think there might have been multiple people involved. And, you know, the first killings are all of couples. It's very sort of clear that they I remember in my examination of one of the things I was looking at specific. Now, what else is there to say about the Zodiac killings? So what I was going to look at is that there are all of these accusations that there was an occult aspect to it. There was some sort of ritualistic aspect. So I looked at different things, locations, victims, phases of the moon. That's always worth looking at. And I didn't find much correspondence in any of those. In one of the killings, I think the one at Lake Berriessa, he does appear in this kind of weird, hooded costume. You know, he's got his symbol, the sort of compass or aiming rectical, you know, circle or the cross through the green. I mean, a variety of things. He used guns and he used knives, but he certainly had to think for couples, except in the last of the killings, wishes of a cab driver in downtown San Francisco, who he shoots in full view of witnesses, which is completely atypical. And also when he was stabbing the victims, it doesn't seem like he was very good at it. Or if the goal was to kill them, he wasn't very good at it because some of them survived. Yeah, he doesn't, he's not particularly thorough about it. He seems to have had much more, more of the violence seems to be directed at the females and the males. So I mean, there's a couple questions asked here. First of all, did people see his face? There is a composite drawing of his face, which I think is based upon the style in killing, the cab driver killing, where there were people who saw him or who claimed that they saw him. The other ones were all when it was fairly dark. Right. I'm not sure that anyone else got a look at his face. The one that occurred in the daylight at Barry S.A., he was wearing a mask. So there's something in common initially in the targeting of victims, which doesn't in the last case. Then after that, there's just the different cases of where there's a pretty good case to be made of a woman who claims, I think she was she and her a small child were picked up. Her car broke down. She got a flat tire and she was picked up by this guy, who she got a very sort of strange vibe from. Eventually, just let her go. Well, you know, that might have been the zodiac. It might not have been. You do this kind of rigorous look saying like, okay, what is the actual facts that we know? Like reduce it to the thing that we know for sure. In speaking about his motivation, he said that he was collecting souls for the afterlife for the afterlife. That's kind of a culty. Yeah. I mean, that's what I believe is it the Vikings and the Romans. They believe this in battle. You're essentially making sacrificial victims and they will be your ghostly servants in the afterlife. Do you think he actually believed that? Who knows? I mean, here's the question. Was he making that up just to be scary? Or is that what is actual? That's what he's saying his motivation is. So let's take him at face value rather than trying to wish that into the cornfield that is to get rid of it. Let's just take it away. So he's claiming that he's killing these people in order to acquire slave servants in the afterlife. He will subsequently go on to claim many more victims. I'm not sure. 44. Eventually, he will have for he just kind of vanishes. One of the really interesting clues to me when I was looking at that case, which I didn't find anybody else that tended to make much of it up is that it all has to do with this kind of Halloween card that he sends to the press in San Francisco. And it's talking about sort of rope by gun by fire. And there's this whole sort of wheel. You know, it's like the zodiacs. But what was this drawn from? Where he got this from is from a Tim Holt Western comic book published in the 1951. And you see the same thing in the cover. It's wheel of fortune, but with different forms of grizzly death on it. And all of the things that he mentioned are shown on the cover of this. So whoever put together that card, saw that comic book. That's kind of an interesting clue. So does that mean he's a comic book collector? When would he? I mean, that is one and also before he got the idea from, so he's incorporating these things from me. Then there are of course his codes, which people have, you know, which aren't all that difficult to decipher, probably because they weren't meant to be the other thing that you find often with cereal or psychopathic killers who are towing with the press. I mean, this goes all the way back to Jack the Ripper. Now they get attention. And then he just disappears. Why do you think he was never caught? I think they knew it'll look for. There's nothing much to go on. I mean, there was a guy who was long as suspect. And then eventually he tested his DNA and find it. didn't tag match any of the things that they'd found. Again, it goes back to, I'm not even sure that it's one person who's responsible for all of them. Well, there's one of the interesting things you kind of bring up here and our discussion of Manson inspires this, but there does seem to be a connection. I shared inspiration between several killers here, the Zodiac, the son of Sam, later, and the monster of Florence. So is it possible? There's some kind of, like, an underworld that is connecting these people? Well, take the Zodiac and you had his claim that he's collecting souls with the afterlife. There are other things that are occultish connected to that. He may have picked some of the killing sites due to their physical location, to their position in a particular place. If you look at the son of Sam case, of course, David Berkowitz will on and off claim that he was part of a satanic cult that was carrying out, again, these killings, mostly of couples and young women similar to the Zodiac, and that he had only committed some of them and was witnesses that others. And that has really created the whole idea that yes, there is this some kind of satanic cult which engages in ritual murders. Then if you go all the way to Florence, you've got murders who go on and off for a long period of time, again, focusing on couples in isolated areas which Italian prosecutors ultimately tried to connect to some kind of satanic cult, although I'm not sure they ever made a particularly strong case for that, but that element comes up in all three of them. So you can, with a little imagination, argue that those similarities, that those things should come up in each of those cases in different places, either suggest that oddly enough psychopathic criminals all sort of thinking the same way, or that there is some sort of higher element involved in this, that there's some kind of common inspiration. And here you come back to something similar we're talking before about do pedophiles exist, do pedophile. Okay, so do do satanic cults exist? Well, they do. Okay, there was one of my hometown, apparently quite harmless. As far as I know, they never did anything, you know, but there are people who robes, here we come again, robes cut the head off a check in, naked woman is an alter, you know, you can get off on that, I suppose, if that's your thing. No, profess satanous exist, satanic cults exist, serial killers exist, ritual murders exist, are those things necessarily connected? No, could they be connected? Yes. Okay, there's nothing. Don't ever tell me that something is just too crazy for people to do, because that's, that's crazy talk, right? You've studied secret societies. You've gave a lot of amazing lectures on secret societies. It's fascinating to look at human history through the lens of secret societies, because they've permeated all of human history. You've talked about form everything from the Knights Templar to Illuminati, to Freemasons like we brought up, Freemasons lasted a long time. Illuminati as you've talked about in its sort of main form lasted a short time, but it's legend. Never gone away. Never gone away. So maybe like Illuminati is a really interesting one. Who? What was that? Well, the Illuminati that we know started in the 1776, affecting, pin it down to a day, the 1st of May, May day, 1776, in Ingolstadt, Germany, founded by a professor, Adam Weissacht. It was an initially called the Illuminati, because that's not really the name of the organization. It was called the Order Profectableists. Apparently that changed. Weissacht would say things like never let our organization be known under its real name anywhere, which leaves wondering what's its real name. So Illuminati is simply the plural of Illuminatus, which means one who was illuminated, one who has seen the light. So in Roman times, Christian converts were Illuminati, because they had seen the light, anyone who thinks, and there have been organizations called Illuminati, that the term is not trademarked, not copyrighted. Anybody who thinks they've seen the light about anything is an Illuminati. So it defines nothing. The symbol of the Order was an owl, which interestingly enough is almost identical to the owl, which is the emblem of the Bohemian Club. Oh boy. Make of that what you will. I don't make that much out of it, because one owl looks pretty much like another owl to me, but compare them. You know, you got to kind of wonder about this little, just a little thing. Maybe there's some kind of connection there. So what that supposedly has to do with the connection to the goddess Minerva, and the owl was sacred to her, and the Order, and the Order was the Minervaul, the person who was brought in. The number of levels changed over time. There was a higher level for the Order that people at the lower level didn't know about. Pretty typical for this. But the thing about vice-health was that he was quite, he was a luminous correspondent with members with his Illuminati, both during the time that it legally existed in Bavaria, and later on. So vice-health himself lives, I think, until 1830, dies in Goethe, which was ruled by an Illuminati prince, and so on. Nothing ever happens to these. No Illuminati has ever put the death or arrested in prison for any period of time. What happens is that their plan, well, what was his plan? His plan was to essentially replace all existing religions and governments in the world with a one-world order governed by the Illuminati. So to do this, you had to subvert and destroy all the existing order, and you know, the purpose for this is to we wish to make men happy and free, but first we must make them good. All right. So that's what the order is all about. Of course, he also said things like, oh man, is there nothing that you won't believe? Okay, so myth would be used in that. Also thought women should be brought into it. Yet a rather interesting view about that was that we should appeal to women, and part because women have a chip on their shoulder, because they're left out of things, so we should appeal to their vanity on that point, and offer that in the future, all things will be open and they will be emancipated, so we should hold out the prospect of female emancipation to attract them, because he argued in the short term there's no better way to influence men than through women. Get women on our side by promising him emancipation, but he made sure we'll never actually deliver it to them, because the future world will be a boys club. So he talks about these things fairly openly, and this is where you get this idea of some sort of a new world order, which is to be based upon the destruction of the existing order. So there are those who argue that there is a trail of dissent that leads from vice-house Illuminati to the communist manifesto, and in fact communism itself, that Marxism was simply a further restating of this idea, and you can draw some sort of-- I mean, the idea never entirely goes away. The Bavarian government gets a hold of the order's inner texts, so the story is there to deliver to them. I think that Vice-Half gave them to him. I think he engineered the exposure of his order because it gave him publicity. By being exposed in Bavaria, you gained great renown, and they continued to recruit after this, and the Bavarian government actually bans the Illuminati four different times. Why? Because apparently the first three times didn't work. So the fourth one does-- you can notice that it's like papal bans on free masonry, and they just go on and on and on because this clearly isn't working. And you actually highlight the difference between speaking of publicity, that there's a difference between visibility and transparency, that a secret society could be visible. It could be known about-- it could be quite popular, but you could still have a secrecy within it. You have no idea what's going on inside. Yeah. It's like a black box. If I said a black box on this table, we can see that there's a black box. What's in the black box? A cat? Who knows? In fact, the secrecy might be the very thing that makes it even more popular. Adam Vice-Half again, there's no more than convincing that it concealed the mystery. Give people a concealed mystery in the fuss, so we need to make the order mysterious for that exact reason. Always hold out the possibility that knowledge, special knowledge that no mere mortals have other than you will have in that way. So he senses a lot of things, the use of vanity and ego to recruit people, to influence both men and women, it's quite sophisticated. And as you might expect from a professor of canon law trained by Jesuits, so I certainly don't think that it ceased when it was banned in Bavaria, because everybody just scatters and goes elsewhere, like Paris, and then you have the French Revolution. So the idea of the Illuminati, to put it crudely, the branding is a really powerful one. And so it makes sense that it can, there's a thread connecting it to this day, that a lot of organizations, a lot of secret societies can sort of adopt the brand. Anybody can call it. You can go and form a club and call it the Illuminati. And if you're effective at it, I think it does attract the chicken or the egg, but powerful people tend to have gigantic egos, and people with gigantic egos tend to like the exclusivity of secret societies. And so like there's a, there's a gravitational force that pulls powerful people to these societies. Exclusive, only certain, and you also notice something goes back to when we were talking about much earlier, when we were talking about intelligence, member mice, ego, use of recruitment and control. That's a great Achilles heel in human beings, the exploitation of ego. And of course, if we go back to the conversation of intelligence agencies, it would be very efficient and beneficial for intelligence agencies to infiltrate the secret societies, right? Because that's where the powerful people are. Yeah. Or the secret societies to infiltrate the intelligence agencies. Oh boy. I mean, at this actually, in all the lectures, I kind of had a sense that intelligence agencies themselves are kind of secret societies, right? Well, it comes down, I give you my definition of secret societies, what they come down to. One is that generally their existence isn't secret. It's what they do is secret. It's what's in the box, it's supposed to be the existence of the box. So one of the most important criterion is that they are self-selecting. You just don't join. They pick you. They decide whether or not you're going to, they admit you and oftentimes they will sort of recruit you. Once you have been recruited, you have to pass tests and initiations. And you also have to swear oaths of loyalty. Those are always very, very critical. So broadly speaking, what interests into an intelligence organization does, they decide whether you get in. You just automatically hit the job. You have to pass tests, one, a lie detector test, for instance. Feel training tests, a whole variety of tests. And then you're sworn to secrecy. You never talk about what you do. Or there will be dire consequences. So the method is very much the same. And also this idea of creating a kind of insular group. Now, the organization is us. And everyone else is outside of that. We are guardians of special knowledge. So this is the type of thing that would generally happen if you question whatever any kind of intelligence agency did. Well, we know things that you don't. Why? Because we're the organization that knows things. We collect information. We know the secrets. We guard the secrets. Therefore, if we tell you, you must believe us. I have the sense that there are very powerful secret societies operating today and we don't really know or understand them and the conspiracy theories in spirit might have something to them, but are actually factually not correct. So like, you know, an effective powerful secret society or intelligence agencies not going to let you know anything, it doesn't want you to know. Right? They'll probably mislead you if you can say close. So I think, you know, the question is, what's the most powerful or important secret society, probably the one you don't know about, one that doesn't advertise its existence, the one which is never known anywhere under its real name. You've got things like the Bohemian Club. You've got the builder burgers, which is another sort of, you know, formed in the 1950s, largely the creation of a guy by the name of Joseph Rettinger. Polish, mysterious, appears in a nose where a schemer for years, a man expelled from Britain, France and the United States at one point or another. Long active in the Mexican labor movement, okay. Rettinger is mysterious figure, in fact, he has, I think there is even a book written about him called Eminence Grease, great Eminence, the frontman for the builder. The burger was Prince Barrenhard of the Netherlands, who was at one point in Nazi, and then a Dutch freedom fighter, all right, take your pick. But Rettinger is the moving hand behind the whole thing, and I'll be damned trying to figure out who Rettinger is. So the idea is that, well, you get like influential people in media, business, politics, and you bring them together just to talk, to try to find common answers or common questions. It's all very much sort of Western Europe, the angle of European, it's all very closely sort of connected to NATO, the whole concept of a kind of Atlantisist world, which is essentially the Anglo-American combine combined with Western Europe. But you've got a bunch of these things, I mean, the castle and foreign relations is very similar to that, and the builder, Burgers, and there's an overlap with the Bohemian club, and then you've got the Penae Circle, or Les Cercos, which is more military, but also linked to the so-called secret glodial, you know, the idea of the Soviets over around Western Europe, there would be a stay behind organization called Glodial, there would be these freedom fighters. So the question I have about that is that how many secret organizations do you need? I mean, why all these separate groups, which often seem to have the same people into them? Yeah, there's a, I mean, the closer I look, the more I wonder the same question we asked about the Russian intelligence agencies, is where is the center of power? It seems to be very hard to figure out, does the secrecy scare you? Well, I guess on one level, I'm comforted that there's somebody actually making decisions, as opposed to today. I mean, what do you want? Do you want chaos, or do you want everything kind of rigidly controlled? And I don't put much stock in the idea that there actually is some small group of people running everything, because if they were, you would operate more efficiently. I do think that there are various disparate groups of people who think that they're running things, or try to. And that's what concerns me more than anything else. Well, I had to go back to them again, because if you're bringing up, you go back to the Nazis, they had their whole idea about a new world order, and they only had 12 years to do it. Look what a mess they made. I mean, look at the damage, the physical damage that can be done by an idea, inspiring a relatively small group of people, controlling a nation. Based upon some sort of racial or ideological fantasy that has no real basis in reality, and yet guides their actions, it's this differentiation that I always make, and I would try to get across the students between always be clear about what you know and what you believe. You don't know many things, you know your name, you know when you were born. You probably know who your father is, but that's not absolute unless you've had a DNA test. Not only for trust DNA tests, so you know who your mother is. You believe this manager, father, why, because your mother told you it was. So you believe things generally because someone has told you this is to be true, but you don't really know for sure. Well, because we know so little, we tend to go by beliefs. So we believe in this, we believe in that, you believe that your cult leaders is the answer to everything, and it seems to be very, very easy to get people to believe things. And then what happens is that whether or not those beliefs have any real basis in reality. They begin to influence your actions. So here again, regrettably in some ways to bring it back to the Nazis, what were the Nazis convinced of? They were convinced that Jews were basically evil aliens. That's what it comes down to. They weren't really humans. There's some sort of evil contamination, which we must eradicate. And they set out to do that. And they were sure that there's just a few problems that could be solved. And once you solve them, that you have this beautiful utopia where everything would be just perfect. It would be great. And we can just get there. And I think it's really strong belief in a global utopia. It just never goes right. It's well, there seems like impossible to know. For some reason, not long ago, I was listening on YouTube to old wobbly songs. The the works of the world. I don't know why I know there was a whole album of wobbly songs. But and there was one of them called Common Wealth of Toil. And it's like most of them, they're sort of taken from gospel songs. And it's talking about in the in the future, you know, how wonderful everything will be in the commonwealth of toil. That will be. And now these are, you know, revolutionary leftists in this case, wobblies, but nonetheless, it's like it's like a prayer for communism, everything. Now, in the future, everything will be good because the earth will be shared by the toilers. And, you know, from each possibility, each according to his name. And it's and it's this kind of sweet little song in some way. But I'm just sort of imagining this, you know, if I was going to stage that, I'd have like this choir of children singing it with a huge hammer and sickle behind them. Because that's that's what it's combining. And you can think that the sentiments that express in that song, which, you know, are legitimate in some way of all the horrors that that that then leads to, it is fascinating about humans, a beautiful idea on paper, an innocent little idea about a utopian future can lead to so much suffering. That's so much destruction. And total, the unintended consequences, as you see, the law of unintended consequences. And we learn from it. I mean, that's why history is important. We'll learn from it. Hopefully, doing slowly or slow learn. I'm unconvinced of that. But perhaps is speaking of unconvinced, what gives you hope? If a human beings are still here, maybe expanding out into the cosmos, a thousand, five thousand, ten thousand years from now, what gives you hope about that future, about even being a possible future, about happening? Most people are cooperative and kind most of the time. And that's one of those things that can usually be depended upon. And usually you'll get back to what you put into it. Another thing that I have like a weird fascination of watching are people who have meltdowns on airplanes. Because that's just bizarre. That's not saying to watch it. The people who will, you know, there's some sort of psychotic break that occurs. And they'll, and it's always going to end the same way. The cops are going to come on a drag you off the plane. Now, true, they'll, and you're going to inconvenience everybody there. And usually at some point, they don't care about that. That's the one little sense of power that they have. So they have some sort of lot, the sense of powerlessness. And if their only way of power is just to piss off everybody else on that plane, they're going to go ahead and do it. Even though it's going to lead nowhere for them. And they're similar sometimes psychological behavior in traffic. Well, the road rage thing. The road rage, yeah. It's fascinating. And I bet that most, there again, those are all people who up to some point were cooperative and kind and polite. And then they snap. So those are all part of the human makeup as well. But also part of the human makeup. Difference between humans and chimps is the ability to get together, cooperating a mass scale over an idea, create things like the Roman Empire didn't laws that prevent us and protect us from crazy human behavior. Manifestations of a man's type of human beings are just weird animals. They're getting here. It's just completely peculiar. I'm not sure that we're all together natural. But I think we are all together beautiful. There is something magical about humans. And I hope humans stay here, even as we get advanced robots walking around everywhere, more and more intelligent robots that claim to have consciousness, that claim they love you, that increasingly take over our world. I hope this magical things that makes us human still persist. Well, let us hope so. Right. You're an incredible person. You're so so much fascinating work. And it's really an I've never had anybody ask me is is many interesting questions that you have. So thank you so much. Or as many questions. This was so fun. Thank you so much for talking today. Well, thank you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Rick Spence to support this podcast. And now let me leave you some words from John F Kennedy. The very word secrecy is repugnant in a free and open society. And we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secrecy societies, the secret oaths and the secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Thank you for listening. And hope to see you next time.