#45 Margaret Griffin is head of Probation Service for Southern region of Ireland.

Asta toiseen maailmaan storitelin kanssa ja vapauta mielikuvituksesi tarinoilla, jotka nostavat arjen uudelle tasolle. Kokeille storitelijä nyt 60 päivää yhdellä eurolla. Lais bedu with the story. -Haluanko, everybody. -I'm welcome back to the Tuenari's podcast. As I always, I am joined by my good friend. -Hi, everyone. -Tiimi down. My cousin Robin has handed eggs. -Hi, Ron. -Happi Sempastriksteer. -Että peräin. Tämä on tästä jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. -Tämä on jälkeen. -Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. -Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. -Tämä on jälkeen. -Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. Tämä on jälkeen. on mahdollisim瞪as. Yes. You know, but people have this, some people, maybe they don't know. My probation is not a probation officer's going to write this bad report. A probation officer will not break that report unless you give them a lot of ammunition to do that. So, would that be fair enough to say? Oh, I think it is absolutely fair enough to say. And, like, we would have no interest in writing a bad report. You know, if anything, we're looking for the positives and we're looking for the hooks towards resistance and towards progression and towards, you know, a more positive future. Because I suppose one of the things that we would see both from kind of research and also from our own experience, that that involvement in the criminal justice system can be really life limited for people. You know, we can be limited in terms of employment prospects, in terms of travel, in terms of, you know, misnought on family. You know, I sat with loads of men down through the years who weren't at home when the first tooth came up, who weren't at home when the first step was taken, who didn't hear the first word, you know, from their child. So they're missing out and all for that in that context. So we would be looking, as I said, for the positive, looking for the hooks and see it as part of our role not only to look for them that are there, but also to create kind of an enabling environment where that desire towards change and towards resistance can be nurtured and encouraged and supported as well. Do you know, back in the early days, like, would have been probation and welfare. Yes. And as things moved on, the kind of welfare I was taken from probation. What was that like for a probation officer? What was that transition like? Did you feel that maybe some of the human side of your work was outsourced, community projects are an explanation, maybe what it meant for you? I think one of the things that one of the effects of it, and there was, you know, a lot of discussion and debate within the service and when that change took place. And I think, I suppose it's, you know, forced a level of introspection where we had to kind of look at it, you know, what it is we're doing and how we're doing it. And, you know, a lot of probation officers are social workers. And the challenge in dropping the welfare part of the title was about defining what it is a social worker does in criminal justice context. You know, what is, why do we engage with people? What is our focus? What is our job in terms of engagement with people as probation officers? And I think that, you know, while it was difficult, you know, for some people at the time, I think it has enabled us to have a very different conversation about what it is we do. What does criminal justice social worker do? You know, what do we do to support and resistance from offending to enable resistance from offending in some instances? And what is it that we do with somebody within the privacy of the probation office that supports them to address the issues that cause their offending? Because that's ultimately why we're in people's lives, you know, we're in people's lives. And it's at a cost as well. I mean, being on probation isn't cost-free for the probationer. You know, somebody has to make the effort of getting off, you know, keeping appointments, receiving probation officers in their home, talking about sometimes, you know, quite personal and intimate parts of their lives. It's not cost-neutral. And so it's about, you know, how can we make the best use of that time to give the person the best chance of not being back before the courts or not being back on probation at points in the future? Sure, for somebody that's unapprovisioned or generally it's a set amount of time. It's like a sentence to solve in the community. So for the duration of that sentence, they will engage with the probation officer and please guard, they get to the end of that and go back to the judge and the judge says, you've done well, blah, blah, blah, then you're finished with that person. And then they go and disobey in the community if they're so always. Absolutely. That's a voluntary aspect. Absolutely. So when you're engaged with the probation service, it's involuntary. It is involuntary. How do you deal with somebody that has been given a probation or a, but maybe they're not ready for it or they say it as it's not prison. So it's a win, but maybe they don't want to engage. Like how do you motivate somebody? Maybe that's not ready. Oh, but they don't want to prison if they don't, basically, really? Yeah. That's probably the judge. Yeah. And he really says, if you don't interact probation services, you'll get your suspended sentence. Yeah. It's my understanding of it. I just want to correct one thing that you said there. And James, very often, and you know, when somebody is placed on probation, their case isn't subsequently reviewed by the court. So somebody could get a 12 month probation order. They meet their probation officer for the duration. And at the end of it, they shake hands. They don't have to go back to the court. They don't have to go back before the courts. And yeah, so you know, sometimes they do if the court builds in a review, but that's actually rare than the other situation where they just do their, their, you know, their, their, their their, their, their, their, their money. You don't even have to go back to court if the probation officer flags something that may be like, let's say if there's, let's say if I get a probation order off the judge and I, you're my probation officer, but I'm not playing ball with you listening appointments and telling them up under the influence, do you then have to go to the judge or to can you like, how does that work? Like the, um, what's the word for sending somebody to prison? I know it as a kind of a town where like if you have to get somebody's committed to prison cause they're not sticking to their band. Yeah. What's that process? I suppose, again, just a slight correction on that prison isn't an, our, sorry, probation isn't an alternative to prison. So it isn't inevitable that if we bring breach proceedings because somebody isn't co-operatin that they end up in prison. That's not inevitable. And community service, which is another, um, uh, scheme or that is a direct alternative to cost today. So it's a higher tariff. So there's the likelihood that if somebody doesn't do their community work that they're brought back to court, there's a possibility that they will go to, to prison in that context. They don't always go because the judge sometimes suspends the sentence or, you know, um, but that community services, the direct alternative to custody, whereas probation supervision isn't. So being, uh, breach proceedings doesn't inevitably lead to, to a prison sentence. And so the, the process is that, um, we swear out the information in court, um, indicate how somebody breached, um, their conditions, um, as someone's, as issued, as someone's served, the person comes before the court, the probation officer presents the evidence of the breach and the court then makes a decision about the outcome. Um, and I suppose, um, it's interesting that we're, we're talking about, uh, breaches because, um, a small enough minority of, um, probation supervision cases end in breach. Most, probably around 80% of, uh, probation orders end in successful outcomes. And, you know, does that always mean that somebody is, uh, well on the, on the road to a crime free life or, um, well on their, the, the resistance journey, it doesn't always mean that. But, um, but, but they have successfully managed the period of supervision. They may be back before the courts, you know, um, at a later point. But, um, you know, thanks for clearing that because I, I, I, I always thought like that if you didn't clear about the probation officer, the alternative was prison, but it's not always the case. It goes back to the judge. It goes back to the judge and the judge adjudicates on that. And, um, we do, and very often the judge would say it was, you know, but you give them another chance. Yeah. You know, because sometimes you can get probation or, and if, if it's maybe an early offense, are you young or just a mitigate, you could avoid conviction or together. Yeah. Well, actually, if you're placed on supervision, probation supervision in the district court, um, that doesn't. It's a very, very, very important thing to do. It's a very important thing to do. the R-guilty, but the court doesn't then convict them if they're placed on supervision. It's a very difficult job. To be a probation officer from Arne Gattorff, you really get to know the people that you work with in their office, the Italian stories. When they tell you their stories, you'll get an understanding of where the R-addicts or alcoholics, the way they're so violent, because if you're on backgrounds, you know, so when you see somebody and you know that they're quite harmless, but they have committed a crime and they're not probably turning up for their probation meetings, and stuff like that. Then you have to go back to your judge and say, "No, you're not, you have to be honest as well." He's not turning up for his meetings. They're not giving themselves much of a chance. You know that they're actually a good person. It must be very, very difficult to know that this person's probably going to go to prison. No, but there's nothing I can do. I have to do my job. It sounds like a really difficult job, an emotional job, where if you can connect it to somebody and they're not doing their things. Like if you're working with people, even you're not mentoring somebody in the community and you want what's best for them, but sometimes they're just not ready and they're far and they're far. But when it's the first to say like that a probation officer gets into the job because he wants to help people, you know, the probation officer wants to help this person that's in the criminal justice system. So obviously you're going to build a connection with sometimes rather than like, "Morcault, where you want it to work out," you know what I mean? So just a half of the job. I think I do think that one of the things that's really important is that, you know, when we start working with somebody that we need to be really clear with them about who we are, what we're doing and why we're doing it. And so that we're very explicit about what's expected of them in terms of their probation supervision as well. And there are what we call negotiables and non-negotiables. So it's really important that we're saying to them, you know, the non-negotiables are that you keep appointments, you know, that you have to keep appointments. If there are specific conditions attached to your order in terms of attendance at treatment, you know, that's something that you have to do as well. You know, then, you know, within that, you know, within the confines of the room, there are some negotiables in terms of, you know, where do we start and how do we kind of go on this journey together while you're on supervision? And, you know, so within that, then, as I said, there are some negotiables. And as was one of the things that we would, you know, try and do, we obviously have an objective. Our objective in working with somebody is to increase the chances of them not committing further criminal offenses, you know, that's very explicit and that's very clear. But we also, you know, have that desire to, you know, help them to improve their lives as that's, you know, what they're choosing to do. So that might be about connecting them with other services in their community that would be of assistance to them, whether that's kind of training opportunities or leisure opportunities or, you know, what are counseling, yeah, indeed, yeah, yeah. That's, that's counseling is for me, the number one thing, like that somebody should be getting, you know, with counseling, like I see the psychotherapist in different forms, counselors, myself for six years in my own recovery and I found this massive benefit in me getting to a re-enlightening, you know, opening up and starting to talk about some of the things that I would not be able to talk about, this stuff that's in my head, and stuff that I would rank on and drug done and all these different things, you know. So, concrete, there's enough of effort going into getting enough counseling for the people that are in probation and that need your service, basically. I suppose not everybody is ready for counseling either, you know, and I think it's really important that you actually have no choice but to work at somebody's pace. Do you know what I mean? If you're ahead of the person that you're working with, you've kind of lost them. So, you know, so you have to meet them where they're at and hopefully move along a progressive journey with them while they're on supervision. Do I think there's enough, no, I don't, you know, I don't think, I think, you know, counseling can be hard to access for people and it can be hard for people to sustain then even if they do get the opportunity because it's a very painful journey, you know, in terms of that kind of introspection and, you know, opening up kind of old traumas and looking at childhood issues or whatever, you know, it is, it is a difficult journey. So, I suppose, you know, I don't think there's enough opportunity to do it but I would also recognize that, you know, a lot of the people that we work with aren't able already to go there at that particular point. And we're engaged in with them. Sally, oh yeah, no, your friend. Would you say, and I don't want to put you in the spot, no? And I know you're still working actively in the probation service, but would you say the probation service is well-resourced and if a probation officer has a client, what would you call the person a client? If the probation officer has a client and this client wants to do the statin deraure, counseling therapy on these things, has the probation officer got the resources to help fund that or powers to make that happen? Are the probation officers still bound by the wind and the stuff? Everybody else's? A lot of the time we are bound by the same waste list that everybody else's. I suppose one of the things that a lot of funding from the probation service goes into what we would call community-based organisations. So, we do have a network of community-based organisations around the country. Like the Corke Alliance. Like Churchfield. Like Pals and Limerick. There's upwards of 60 community-based organisations around the country. Yes, the project is that probation service. Yes. So, the probation officer has a good answer. Right answer. So, we would have access to, you know, and supports to those organisations as well, which probably might work to the advantage of somebody who's on supervision. But I think one of the other things that I think this is kind of a very highly valued aspect of being on probation because the probation service funds a number of our par at funds, a number of addiction treatment centres. There is the facility for somebody on probation to get access to, you know, either residential or community-based support around addiction. And I have to say in my experience, you know, and talking to people that I've worked with down through the years, that is something that is very highly valued by them because it kind of greases the wheels and makes access to the service that is easier for them. Yeah. How are the probation services coping at the moment with the, you know, among the people that probably have community service and they can't do over COVID-19? Yeah. How are we actually dealing with keeping up with the amount of cases because courts are still open and like you imagine, did they work with us? You probably have an and half of your desks of people, but nobody can go do community service at the moment. So you probably have a backlog of maybe 12 months. How was the way you're going to be able to do something like that? It's a difficult, it's a difficult challenge. Like community service, there's been kind of some sites open at different times, you know, depending on what level of restriction we're at in terms of COVID-19, over the past 12 months now, it's just over 12 months. But, you know, during level five restrictions, our sites are closed, you know, we can't facilitate safe, safely operate in community service at the minute. And there is, you know, some work has gone online and there are a number of kind of initiatives in different parts of the country for some kind of group work online. The community service, so that would be around preparing for employment, say, preparing for employment course or a course around addiction or addiction and offending or, you know, that type of thing, some of that is available online and some some self-development work as well. Some of the community-based projects have been very active and very helpful in terms of engaging with people who are on community service and trying to get down their hours. But there is a backlog, there is a challenge, we're very acutely aware of it and we're currently putting proposals together to address the backlog. It's in every business. It's in every where he's going to have to deal with the exact same things. You know hospitals and they know. As opposed to the there is, there has been a slowdown of referrals though it has to be said. Like the courts aren't operating at the same level obviously as they were prior to COVID-19 and particularly during level five restrictions. So we wouldn't have the same kind of volume of referrals as we would ordinarily have in a non-COVID year as you'd expect. So that does provide you know a little bit of space. That's also. So with this, and while I got over prison I got out in the incentive unit, the scheme and the return. So there's nobody getting out on a community return. So at the moment. Oh no, they are. Or they still get the air. So they get. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Oh, no, that's. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice. It's nice. They just have to do a community walk on zone. The community work. But like you said, courses there. If they're courses that are going to benefit them. Yeah. So education and even personal development. I think that's a great idea. Yeah. And there is the provision within community service. It's called integrated community service. Like when community service started, it was generally physical labour that people did. One way or another, whether it was kind of working graveyards or G A clubs or schools or you know, and with the house. House. You know, they and working with the said Vincent Paul or whatever it was generally kind of physical work. But there is the provision now for what we call integrated community service where a certain percentage of the hours. And are a lot to self improvement initiatives, whether that is attendance at addiction. Of course, you know, of course, but you know, addiction services or self development courses or you know, address and are counseling or addressing whatever issues are there. And for the individual client and it is very individualized. I suppose that's one of the things that I really want to say. I mean, we work very hard to provide a consistent service around the country so that, you know, if I'm on probation in Donnie go all or if I'm in probation in cork, I'm getting the same kind of quality service. And that's that kind of consistency of quality is really important to us. But one of the things that's also really important to us is that it is very individualized. So I might be, you know, somebody might be accessing the service in Donnie go all somebody might be accessing access to the mentioned cork. And they're not getting the same service because they don't need the exact same service. They need whatever engagement they have with probation officer to be individualized to them. So there are particular needs and somebody's needs in Donnie go all might be very different from somebody needs in cork. But they still deserve the same consistency of service and the same quality of service. And if, you know, if you understand the distinction between what I'm trying to make. Don't know when you start at all. I'm going to ask us about some of the people that you might meet on your job. So do you know when you start to work like probation service can have any range of offense, including sexual offenses. And and and and somebody more more heinous or maybe more from the pan offenses. You have to work with all these people. Is it very, did you find a hard initially to separate the person from the offense? Like let's say if you are a young social worker working on probation service and somebody's come in and they've killed a child or molested their child. Like did you find that difficult work on with that person? I was a certain that personally I didn't. I would understand how some people could but personally I didn't. And and I'm a bit of a storyteller myself and and I I liked your stories. And I think I've never worked with anybody who when they begin to tell you who they are and tell you about their life journey and tell you about the things that they've encountered or tell you about some of the trauma that they've experienced. I've never worked with anybody who's who I haven't been able to see their humanity. You know, so no matter how heinous the crime or no matter you know what kind of public scorn is is is landed on them. I think once you sit down opposite somebody and you look them in your they are and you hear their story and you connected their story at a human level. I think you can judge their behavior and and we do judge the behavior. But I think that you know we are able to make that distinction between the person and the thing that they've done. I think it's an important coping skill for probation officer to be able to do that because you have to work with that person and you know I know like it's better for somebody like that to be engaged with the probation service because you know they are helped to move out of that type of behavior. It's better than just being released and I haven't that support. You know, so I understand the benefits of having them engaged but in practical terms then is it hard to if you're working with somebody maybe because that is probably the most prone to panofint sexual offenses like in terms of if they want to go to college to want to get the constant and all these other things that maybe your regular client would want to do. Is it more difficult just to keep the right identities protected and to keep them safe like if I know a lot of sexual offenders end up in homelessness because for you had to play us them in communities. Is that a tough factor? That is a challenge and I suppose one of the ironies of it is that you know known where a sex offender is living you know them being known in the community that they're living is actually a protective factor. It's when you push people on the ground and you push people away and you other people and they become more risky in those circumstances. So there is you know there is a kind of a struggle and you know in relation to that. And honestly you know, do you know when you're in working and as a probation officer you know you're working with a teen. Is there some people they like to work with a certain type of a fender or is that they want work with a certain type or in your experience. People will work or whoever is there. Yes I think for you know there is an expectation that people will work with whoever is there and and we do like we do. Now there are you know some areas where you need particular training like to work with sex offenders or to work with perpetrators of domestic violence you need to be trained in the risk assessment instruments that we use with those two categories of offenders. So you need to have that training and if you don't have that training you can't work with and those people but that's different to somebody saying oh I don't work with a type of a vendor. Because that would be very unprofessional thing to do when you're there. But I suppose when as you said you like listening to your story. Suppose when you're listening to their story they're starting from the beginning of their story and their story could start off with them being sexually abused as a child. Or some case like that and they would have taught it was the norm or something like that I don't know how it works but in your listening to that then and your your your have like you're listening to this part of adult talking and the child has actually been in these traumatic experiences. You're actually getting a bit of compassion and empathy for this child and you're looking then and with your own academic education you're able to understand a bit more why this person did turn out to where it is. It's like putting two together it makes sense then why they probably did commit these crimes and I suppose you do get a bit of empathy and compassion and all the crimes that are committed are serious and they're not raised. I would say you could even have a data kind of perspective on it. every offense really. It is like every offense. It's just some it's in this country sex and in general like it's when people start talking about it. It's shame automatically comes to the forefront of the emotions, you know, in feelings. You know, so it's just normal. But when we go into something like that, especially when we have the background we have with everything that went on in this country in the last 20, 20, 20 years that month, you know, it even gets a little bit worse, you know, and it's still coming over. And you know, it's just it's just one of those topics that it's just kind of upset everybody when people look horrible, it brings up the surface, their own shame and their own stuff. What they have done in their own past and stuff like that. It's a pure taboo and dare to bulge you in with the probation officer who's the one that has to work with that person. And I have to be done at the same time as you say the spectral to have the engagement services and work with them, then they're going underground because that's absolutely. But and I suppose, you know, we do take our responsibilities very seriously when it comes to working with people who have the potential and the propensity to harm others. We take that responsibility very seriously and that's why it's really important, as I said earlier, that we explain exactly who we are and what we're doing and why we're doing it. And also, you know, the consequences of not working with us are not compliant with us, that, you know, that people know from the very get go, if I don't play ball here, I could end up back in court. And, you know, we do take that responsibility to public safety very seriously as well, that if somebody has that propensity or that potential, to harm other people, you know, we would take action on it, we would bring stuff back to court. And, you know, and it might sound harsh, but that wouldn't cost me, you know, if I thought somebody was going to harm somebody else, and it wouldn't cost me to bring them back to court. It's my job. It's my job. It's my job to protect people in society really from people have to have committed crimes, violence and, you know, it's actually your job. You're like just underneath the guard really, you know, and I may be above. So, you know, for better, you start to trip, and you can breach, as we say, and all the wind ups, the war ups, and you can breach somebody, meaning you can actually, you have the statutory part to get somebody put into prison if you feel they are a danger to themselves. We don't have the statutory power to get somebody into prison. We have the statutory power to bring somebody back before the court, or a condensation. We wouldn't even necessarily make a recommendation. You have an objective report based on this various. Yes, but we'd be saying, you know, this person hasn't complied in this way, this way, this way, and this way. They're not, um, complying with the conditions of their order. We're bringing it back to the court, and the court then, as I said, adjudicates on it and decides what the next step is. Sometimes they'll say to us, we give them another chance. Yeah. Sometimes they'll impose, you know, another sanction, and other times then they will send them into prison. Probation after society, me wondering, that they loved work on with Section 15 air offender's, Section 15 air being sale and supply of drugs. Yeah. Section 15 air offender's generally have their head school done, their lives in general, illicit enterprise and they just got caught and they generally might have any more addictions or madness going on in their life, and they're probably easy to, um, work with while they're finishing their sentence in the communities, you know. So I don't know, have you any comment on that? Yeah. As they are, is there enough end or that's more like, I suppose when you, like, first of all, how the offenders are declines devied out amongst probation officers? Is there a group of probation officers work with this type of offender? No. No, no, no. So you know, it's mostly geography actually. Okay. You know, so, um, like the two supervision teams in court, there's a court, it's very simple. There's a court north team and there's a court south team and the court north team would cover the north side of the city and the north side of the county and stretching into some of the east of the county and the court south team would cover the south side of the south side of the county, stretching out west. So it is, it is geography and it is who has space under case loads, you know. So it isn't that, you know, market works with all section 15 A's or, um, what, you know, it isn't like that. So it is about who has space under case load and, um, it's, you know, it's allocated then mostly kind of on the basis of geography. From the perspective of a probation officer, what do you think are the biggest barriers to reintegration for people like myself and to me, or people like your workers? Um, opportunities, I suppose, you know, that, um, it can be really hard to create a create or link people to opportunities. Um, you know, sometimes having a criminal conviction is a barrier to employment. It can be a barrier to accommodation. It can be a barrier to travel. It can be, you know, even if it isn't a legal barrier to some opportunities, it can be a practical barrier in that, you know, you know, there might be groups who wouldn't choose to have somebody with a criminal conviction, join their group and be part of their group, whether it's kind of walk and group or whatever. And so that kind of, there can be exclusion, a bit more subtle exclusion, you know, in that type of group. Um, so I think that, you know, that that can be, um, a barrier. I think sometimes people can limit themselves as well. Um, and, and, and, you know, that's not about blame and the individual or saying, you know, this is your fault that you're, you're in this situation. But, um, I suppose one of the things that can be hard for people to sustain is the sense of hope, you know, a hope that, and a belief that things can get better and will get better. And if you haven't hope, and if you haven't the kind of vision for a better future for yourself and your family, you can be kind of self-limit in that regard. And, but I suppose opportunities would be, would be, would be the biggest kind of thing. And this was one of the things that, you know, I was out of the, I worked in Limerick for, um, most of my kind of young, um, probation life. And I was out of Limerick for, um, for, for a couple of years. And when I went back, one of the things that I noticed was that a lot of the lads who would have been in the court every week, um, that they had stopped offending, they stopped going to court. But there was no dividend for them, you know what I mean? They were, I used to call them, that called them, but I used to think of them as kind of ghost like, you know, walking around their community, you know, minding their kids involved with their kids, which was hugely positive, but not really getting any bounce from having stopped offending. And, and I think that must be really, really hard for somebody to sustain. I spoke about this with somebody recently in the context of people in recovery, which is very similar. Yes. Assistance in recovery, very similar. Yes. You have the freedom of prison, freedom of addiction. But freedom of, is not good if you haven't got the freedom to. Yes. And the freedom tools, what you're talking about, yeah, they're not involving the criminal justice system. They don't have the freedom to do, have the nice job or to care or to pat and still, and there's, there's people in recovery tools, yeah, they're freedom of addiction, freedom of, what they, their life is stagnated, you know, and the freedom of is not good, we're up to freedom too. And that's a kind of a philosophy, Eric Flambok, I was reading there, kind of, he was a touch in and that, and it's good because I was only speaking about this recently enough, you know, and it's, it's sad situation to be in, you know, you're, you're broken away from the, you've got all the recycle of course, and prison and probation, you've got all the recycle of addiction, but you haven't got any, no, different as you said. Yeah, and I suppose one of the things about that is that, you know, like one of the factors that's kind of scores very highly in why people get involved in offend and is their peer associations, who it is they're hanging around with, who they're spending their time with, who they're drinking with, where they're drinking, that type of thing. And you know, for somebody who's breaking away, part of that might believe in their group or friends behind, you know, and that's a very, and sometimes it's even their family behind, you know, so, so that's a really lonely place to be, leave no hole identity behind. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to come in there? Yeah. Just let me, sorry. I had to ask you to come in there. No, I did it was something. No, I was it. You were speaking, but, you know, I was, you were speaking. people, just people not having choices. And maybe I was just thinking in my own head, when somebody really reaches somebody that has lived their life with crime and addiction, whatever, when they do commit to recovery, there's always that feeling of giving up good enough, like in past essential room, you're never going to be good enough and there's always that feeling that something else is going to come up and bite you in the back or something like that. You know, we all live that, you know, because we're so used to who's at the door, is to get out, you know, we're so used to that. I suppose if somebody like some guy in our own limicar car car, whatever, and he's all prison, he's the best thing for somebody like that to be working on really is themselves, for them to actually reach inside themselves where they can find that last little boy that got into the trouble because of a stuffed up is going on a home or a stuffed up is going on a street or became an addict because he wasn't able to handle his emotions, you know, and just to, from the, to really be involved in courses and self-help groups and stuff like that, with other men that are the same as them, in groups, you know, where they can really start loving themselves because that's a massive thing for me, was trying to find a little bit of love to be able for myself and life, you know, that's what we really need. We need groups. It's like, yeah, and addict stops using drugs when they feel that they have something in common and they can relate to a guy that's sitting across the way from them, they don't feel alienated anymore, you know, because they're caught up in the head, no, they have people, the exact same as them they can talk to. Maybe if we had something similar to that with people that were in prison and, and feel the same way and their groups and there's a bit of confidence of that's where I see the change. Of course, back to that thing, we were talking about half camera, have an agency, let, given somebody agency as an ability to actually, you know, not rely on the social welfare, not rely on, you know, the, the state, like the social welfare was very good to me, you know, don't throw the airs, education, you know, job seekers, you know, and back to education, all these things, and there was a fierce anxiety about moving away from that into full-time employment. You know, like, you're on your own, people are in your own. A lot of people, especially I think people and the disability, they find it very hard to let go of it. And as secure as the disability is, it's very limiting as well, you know, and the key people, not as bad as there were, but they're never going to reach the potential, you know, and you find that, you know. Yeah, I think that is, and I'm smiling, as you're saying that, because, you know, I've had conversations with women, especially who'd say, and will I lose my medical card? You mean I lose my medical card? And that fear of, of taking that step, and as you say, kind of being on your own, and that kind of self-reliance can be very scary for people. And, but I do think, you know, that's where kind of education can come in. And that's where supports can come in. That's where having the hope and having the ambition. And I'm very interested in what you're saying about that kind of imposter and syndrome, because I think that is something that is very, very real for people. And, and sometimes they see that reflected back and then from other people as well. That I suppose one of the things that, that I would always say to the people that I worked with, and when I did kind of direct client work is, you know, I don't define you by the worst thing that you've ever done. And I would really invite you not to define yourself by the worst thing that you've ever done. And I think, you know, and, I suppose one of the things that I kind of start to do in the last 10 years of kind of that direct practice was saying to people, okay, so I'm here because I'm a probation officer and you've committed offenses and you've been before the course. And we need to talk about all of that and we will talk about all of that. But I, I'd always particularly at the first time that I'd meet them. I'd always say to them, and tell me something about yourself that you're proud of, or tell me about something about yourself that you're passionate about. And I, I have been bold over by the things that people reveal about themselves when they tell that story. Like I remember one fella telling me that he was a, a chess champion when he was in school. I remember another fella, the most unlikely person you could imagine. And I'm smiling as I'm saying that. And I was, fellow is really fond of, but he had a ferocious interest in local history. He was passionate about local history. And if I was guessing for a million years about what he was passionate about, local history would have been, you know, I'm the list and we're not featured in it. And, and I remember another time talking to a woman who was a really depressive state. She was really, really down. And, and I, I even found as I was talking to her that I was having to watch myself so that I didn't follow her down, you know, into where she was. And, and, and I remember at the end of it, saying to her, you know, can you tell me something that you love? And she, she was in prison, but she had two little dogs that she absolutely adored. And I'll never forget how her face just completely changed. And she brightened up and she smiled and she became animated as she spoke about these two little dogs. Now again, if you don't ask that question, that's a part of that person's story that you never get to hear, you know, so I do think, you know, while there is, there has to be the focus on the behavior that brings somebody before the court and brings them to probation. But, you know, that bit of more holistic look at who they are. And so that you're not defining them by the worst thing that they've done and they're not defining themselves in that way either. And, you know, I think that's really important. Yeah, that's very, very true. The other side of it is the reality of it is you are the find by the stuff that you do do, you know, in a lot of cases, particularly look for jobs, you're defined by the worst stuff you do, not the stuff that you've done that we really spoke about. And last week in a podcast was Damien Quinn, you're actually defined by all the worst stuff. And that might have happened 10, 15 years ago. But they never read out the stuff you've done in between. You know, all the changes, all the positive stuff you've done, all the people you've helped, you know, even the education process you and through yourself that's never mentioned in a job interview or any form of interview is the only thing that has mentioned is, oh yeah, he rubbed this person, he rubbed that host, you know. So that's something we definitely need to work out. One of the work drones we spoke about that last week with Damien, who would have a similar story to ourselves, like when you're the only guy who's a vetting, do the vetting arrive in the post or by email with no context attached, it's just dates and offences and core numbers and judges or whatever. There's no context to that. And something we were talking about was maybe if there's a reason a bit of a month's time past this person has done reasonably a month of work in terms of therapy, personal development, education, courses and climate, level should accommodate maybe a notice from a guy or a probation officer or solicitor or somebody's, somebody in the public service anyway, like a certificate of assistance or something or certificate of this, so that like yeah, this person has done this, but I'm regional manager for probation solvers, no discolent discolent is blah blah blah and this person is zero risk or very low risk, you know, would you back something like that? Yes, yeah, yeah, I think that would carry a lot away. Now I would back it, but I do think that's where the kind of honesty piece comes in as well. And you know, where I would certainly, you know, be prepared to say honestly, if I felt somebody was low risk and but if I didn't, you know, if somebody came to me then and said, I need you to sign this Margaret, I'd say, yeah, the idea I have my head knows this would be done all in honestly, like with the venting bureau, the venting bureau would do the background check, like so along with this, let's say if you're looking at James Leonard and James's offenses come down to court debts, to be report us of some sort, you know, under database to be report to say like the progression or his engagement services don't really have to be reported. everything is done the meantime so then when the employer gets the vetting there's something attached like a certificate of assistance at the something world and over and over. Yeah, maybe a separate organization to the vetting committee that would go into the background of the stuff that has been done after and it gets sought from their college if your college was at your after attending the college and there was proof that you got a degree or you tended psychotherapy for four years you've got a letter from psychotherapist and yeah he tended for four years, 38 weeks a year and he's had to come and so well and the psychologist in our psychotherapist is after he's on some board or whatever all that kind of stuff that would be very very very good in showing how far somebody has came. Yeah, you know, it's not me and Timmy's words then you'll somebody in a position of power and respect that's a vote for you. Yeah, yeah, I know I think in the cold. I think in 50 years down the line, you know, I do think that some kind of systematic approach to the barriers to progress, you know, have to be considered. I absolutely agree with you on that. And I do think, you know, there's a responsibility as a society, you know, if we're committed to the idea of second chances and if we're committed to the belief that people can and do change well then we have to put our money where our mouth is really in terms of of that. No, I do that. That has to eventually lead to somebody that has been through the criminal justice system prison that has come true or all that and got an education, it's up to the probation service to imply that person eventually. If third or eighth person for the job and only if third or eighth person for the job, but for the probation service really to kind of lead by example, I suppose, and you don't have to comment on this no logic. I just make it statement. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. But it's up to the probation service. It's up to the services that no more, above all of them, most organizations, journeys of the systems recovery, pathways into offending behavior, childhood traumas, adverse childhood experiences, probation and probation for the projects and that whole carceral network of projects, no more than lay organizations in private industries, especially. So it's really up to those organizations to lead by example. And I can wait for probation officer with a colorful background, like Alan Weaver in Scotland who we spoke for off camera, because I'm sure they'd make a great probation officer. So we probably have a bit to go, but I think we're in the right direction. But I think as well, you know, we're talking about the systematic path of the vet and process. I think there's also like we could be backing up the round together. And maybe it's actually done to the employer to just think that not everybody was open to privilege background, not everybody like we can't hold everybody to the same maritalists when we're born in different contexts, you know, I'm not an Albert at the same standpoint. And you know, what might like if you're from a sort of community where picking up a conviction might be a total taboo, whereas in this community, it's a denorm. Yeah. But we're expected to meet your maritalists, but we don't have your resources. You know, you don't have our challenges. Don't know that. So I'm trying to say so. I know exactly what you're saying. There's an emphasis on the employer to actually get a bit real as well, you know what I mean? And see that people have the capacity to change. And I think, you know, to respond to that by going from the time you turn the show, to response that we get and to me get from doing this podcast is that people are actually willing to say, you know, I'm not for good fair play, they've done that, but they don't make hand today. So I think that we are, again, we are moving in the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I remember kind of, again, when I worked in Limerick talk, and when we were setting up the PALS project in Limerick, you know, talk and to employers and local employers in particular. And when I say local employers, now I mean, born and bred Limerick employers. And, and you know, some of them were saying, if he has the right skills, if he has the right knowledge, and if he's prepared to take direction, I'll hire him. I'll hire him. But if he comes in and starts giving me a lip, I'll give him the door in five minutes. Yeah. You don't expect that list. No, no, no. And, you know, I'm thinking of one employer in Limerick in particular, who would have chosen to employ people who had been in trouble and been in prison. And would have, you know, very deliberately chosen that in order to give people opportunities. But he also recognised that in terms of the business that he was in, that they had the knowledge and the skills that he was looking for, you know, in terms of what he was doing. And like, you know, he used all of a say, there's nothing like, you know, having the proven knowledge and skills to counter any kind of prejudice or bias that somebody might have against employing somebody. You know, and I think there's something in that as well. There's great employers up there. There is like, to be fair, I've had some great opportunities always to me, you know. So, as I said, I think we're moving into a new space, a more liberal Ireland, the other is, you know, so look where we are over the time that we've elotted. One thing I want to ask before you go, if somebody wanted to be a probation officer, what's the rules they can take? Well, in the last couple of years, and people are required to have professional qualification and social work to become a social worker, to become a probation officer, sorry. And they must be registered with CORE, which are the kind of regulatory, organized oversight group for social workers. So, you know, at the minute, that generally means an undergraduate degree, which is kind of four years, an opposed graduate qualification in social work then. Well, yeah. Because they know a lot of social work graduates and they kind of do their service in two slums, but the whole thing real is always the probation for some reason. But I can see why it's a attractive job. And it would be social workers, a lot of social workers watch the podcast, that's the rules to do it, you know. And by your time, build your experience like everything else. Anything you'd like to have before you finish? You think we're far behind Scotland in terms of employing some of the probation services employing somebody that has been imprisoned. That has shown that they've done the crime. The system in Scotland is organized a bit differently in that it's the local authority employee, social workers who work probation officers. You know, there isn't a kind of a national probation service in Scotland as there is in Ireland. I don't think we're there yet, Tim, if I'm to be absolutely honest with you. And like Alan is a very, very unique guy. You know, and I suppose the reason that we all know him is that there aren't too many islands around the place, you know, do my work. We should have a bit to go on, aren't we? What service we do first. We do have a bit to go yet. Well look, we'll do our best advocating and the podcast and thanks a million for your time. Thank you both. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You'll be really well and you'll represent the organisation very well. Thank you. Thank you. We'll be fair to you. Thanks Tim. Thanks, Lads. Thanks, Lauren. And we'll see everybody next week. Don't forget to subscribe to the YouTube channel and if you like what we do want to contribute, consider donating it in the couple of euros, the place of a couple of coffee, if it's me, say it to me and about a chocolate for Lauren, under Patreon. And a health for Lauren. We're fundrais in the health for Lauren. Yeah, head off to the Patreon and you can donate us a couple of euros and the helps keep the show on road. And thanks to everybody and we see you all again next week. Thank you. Thank you. See you later. Bye.