Speaker 1hi welcome back to the lift the bar podcast where today claire and i are going to be talking about behavior change so i thought i'd start claire by asking you what do you think of when you hear the words behavior change the thing is
Speaker 2there's it's one of those things where there was just so many different ways you can take this so i think one of the things that kind of immediately comes to mind it's where most people start i think is with that the goal setting but very much focused around the behavior you want to change which sounds really ridiculous because that's literally the words right whereas in reality there's normally it's bigger than that there's so many reasons why the behavior is there in the first place and you know if behavior change was easy and this is where we start with almost this concept that it is easy and it's kind of like i do this behavior i want to change that behavior oh okay i'll change that then happy days we all skip off into the sunset but that's not how it works and then it's where it falls down and where there's a lot of frustrations and where personal trainers get sort of frustrated with clients and things because that very basic idea just doesn't hold up when you're working with real life people and far from it being i want to change this thing oh okay i'm going to do that then and we're all done it stops losing any coherence there tends to be this kind of like loss of logic because emotions get involved and and all of that all of a sudden you're going well it doesn't make any sense you say you want to change that and you're doing the direct opposite thing why are you doing the opposite and all of that kind of stuff so it gets really complicated and different ways that you can take it so yeah and the short answer is i think it's complicated
Speaker 1i think it's complicated too it's a good job we've got a whole podcast to talk about this isn't it so i think i think i completely agree with you i think that we think about change behavior change as though it's either a problem with motivation a problem with knowledge and education or a problem with discipline and actually most often it's a systems context problem a nervous system problem or even a meaning making problem so we have all the knowledge but actually making meaning of that is really hard and so as pts and um and and as clients of you know people who are helping us to change our behavior as well everyone can become particularly frustrated if all we're doing is trying to fix or push or persuade people into changing their behavior when actually what's needed is to increase safety increase choice um expand the possibilities or what feels like it's actually possible um reduce the the threats or the fears that are there for people um which i think is why it is such a complicated thing because i mean you mentioned it before humans are not rational number one it's a human issue so immediately we are not dealing with purely logical rational thought processes and behaviors and then secondly we live in environments and systems which make things harder as well so um i mean there's so many theories of behavior change we wouldn't have all these models and theories if it wasn't something that people had seen the complexity of and felt the necessity to be able to then go and research and and gain an evidence base for it no absolutely i think uh
Speaker 2it's the same as a lot of things isn't it we kind of you know we just want the simple answers as humans this is what we want we want to boil it down into a sort of like black and white scenario where it's just like well that's the problem this is the answer that's fixed let's move on to the next problem yeah and and it doesn't work like that and then you've got the and that's why again you say there's a lot of different models and some are better than others and and as every human is different the approach to everything sort of needs to be to be different i i guess one of the places that i sort of think is a good place to start and you can tell me if you agree or not is is that i was just questioning why you want to change that behavior in the first place because sometimes there's the idea that we feel like we should be doing something so we should change this i should do that a bit more and there's not necessarily the desire to make the change behind it and if you're looking at changing all your systems around to make something happen you need some reason to do that because it's not a comfortable change isn't a comfortable place for any of us right it's uh it's something that none of us particularly like and so if you're going to be moving into that area of discomfort you kind of need to know something something you really want to do not something you've said on a whim um or because you think somebody else thinks that's what you should say and uh and so i think when we're working with clients there's again it's really easy sometimes to take something someone says and dive straight in because we can help with that we know how to deal with that we know we're going to come up with a goal we know we're going to make it a smart goal we know we're going to come up with the measures for it and we're going to talk about it and we're going to have our check-in points and we're going to do all of that and it's happy because we've got a nice little system we can use and a linear process for for progression and we're going to going to get there and we're going to get to the end and and that's fine but i think quite often there's a place for almost just just taking a step back before you dive in and checking that this is something that genuinely wants somebody wants to work towards rather than getting caught up in our kind of oh yeah i can help with that enthusiasm and get caught up in that side of things so yeah for me i think a good starting point is like check it's check this is really where we want to go is this something we really want to work on uh particularly as often the behavior change element comes out of somebody's goal and they may not know even have recognized that there's behavior change involved yeah so if somebody sort of says my goal is to run a marathon um that's a goal someone can come up with even just having like it's a vague idea that yeah i know i'm gonna have to do some more running but not really understanding the level of change that's going to be required to build up enough to be able to do that thing and and all of that kind of stuff so whatever it is that somebody says is their goal there's normally multiple behavior changes that are going to be off the back of that and if we jump straight into right this is how we're going to map it out where we're going to move and we're going to work on uh all of a sudden we've we've inadvertently given them like 20 things to change without any ever really acknowledging
Speaker 1it yes goodness right i'm going to run pick about three different things from there that we could probably talk about because um what you've got there is motivation what is their motivation right so that is quality rather than quantity i think we often think about motivation in terms of quantity but actually quality of motivation is what's most important and we if you're in lift the bar you've probably heard this theory a million times because we talk about it a lot there's a reason for it but that then links back into this a huge macro theory of motivation and human human flourishing which is self-determination theory so i think that has to be an aspect of it why does this person want to do it because unless it's good quality motivation uh which comes from a point of the person's values beliefs and identity rather than against those then actually anything they implement will not be sustainable and therefore will not lead to long-term behavior change um and for those people who aren't in lift the bar and maybe haven't watched the million of courses that reference self-determination theory because it's impossible to talk about motivation without talking about it um a very very kind of brief overview is um self-determination theory identifies three psychological needs um that support sustainable behavior and that is autonomy which is after having our own choice and agency and self-direction in things competence our ability to actually feel that we can do it feel capable and we're not constantly failing without any success in it and then relatedness or belonging which is feeling understood and feeling like we're connected and not feeling judged by others and when those three things are present then we will find that it's much easier to sustain behavior and quite often when behavior change isn't sustained it's because there's a key psychological need missing and a lot of that actually is undermined by things we do in our thought processes as much as sometimes we inadvertently do as pts by perceiving that we're not going to be able to do it because we're not describing things you should well you need to what you're going to have to do like all those kinds of things or i should i shouldn't i should have all those things kind of basically erode that sense of autonomy for a start so we can do it to ourselves as much as we can do it to other people moralizing things um i'm such a bad person because i'm useless because i didn't like all those kinds of thoughts uh or even like that sense that i'm not going to be able to do it because i'm not i have to do something this often happens with weight loss moralizing weight loss you know you'll be a better person you even you'll be a happier person can't ever say that that would actually create that for someone. But sometimes people believe that's what it's going to create. But actually, there's no evidence there that it will. And if you're not actually feeling capable and confident whilst you're doing it, it won't, because you're missing a key psychological need. So moralizing the behavior can often then mean that we're not supported in sustaining that change. And then the last thing is this, and again, unfortunately, it happens in our world without us intending to is framing that change as being something that is to do with discipline or to do with a penance um i'm gonna go for rum because i ate that food or i am i'm gonna train for a marathon because um i want to prove that i have the discipline to do it rather than actually finding a way that you connect with that that you feel a sense of that it it connects in with who you are that you find a way to connect your identity with it so the the quality of the motivation is huge if when you're talking to someone you hear them moralizing you hear them shoulds and can'ts and mustn'ts there is something there that is undermining their motivation that is quite likely linked into autonomy or competence or relatedness and and it happens a lot because you mentioned it like sometimes people kind of come in with an idea of something they want to achieve um and actually it's not their goal at all um they they kind of feel like they should because society tells them that this is a goal that they need to achieve um or they've watched a marathon and gone oh i could do that they're not really thought anything past that um and then that that capability that competence is going to be missing when they first start out um so yeah motivation is huge um and the goal is not to get them motivated it cannot be an external pressure yes externally we can support them and help them create the right conditions and environments where that motivation can emerge naturally and actually like you know a little bit of competitiveness of wanting to run a marathon because my mate did it and i think i'm better than him and i think i'm might be a good starting point but you're going to have to help them towards a more intrinsic motivation something that's more sustainable if they're going to actually reach that goal at the end of it and and find it something that they can sustain behavior change with past even the point of achieving that one goal of running marathons so they don't just stop and never run again
Speaker 2yeah absolutely i think um it's uh there's so much going on with this so assuming that we've established that the behavior we want to change is something we really want to change what where do you um where do you go next when you're doing it do you think the next thing is is looking at the goals or is the next thing looking at the the you know why is that behavior exist or what are the barriers to change it or you know where do you go next because all of these things are relevant
Speaker 1right yes absolutely so i think goals is your starting point and actually like on most pt courses i think anything you do in life really and work and college and all the rest of it i think we all hear about the smart goals right set a smart goal and that's incredibly useful not saying it's not useful it is it's a really good starting point for that client to understand what that goal entails what they're going to have to do to achieve it and then to set time frames and ways of measuring it so that they know they are making progress but all that does is help us know that we're making progress towards a goal and giving us a plan towards the goal what it doesn't do is help us with anything around that that will support the achievement of the goal and essentially that's what behavior change is right it's there might be things that happen in our lives right now that essentially will need to change if we're going to achieve this goal because otherwise we'll probably be achieving the goal already we won't be setting it as a future goal we'll be going what's my i can just do i'll just do it we do it because we are impulsive beings as well many of us um so i think this is where a behavior model is useful to look at um so i've chosen one that we can use but there are many um and the one i've chosen is simply because it is more recent model um that has taken into account through evidence reviews other models that exist and it doesn't sit alone on the idea of behavior change being individual it crosses the theoretical boundaries of um social and cultural and environmental context as well as individual psychology um physical environment all that sort of thing so it takes all of it into account so it's called the com b model c-o-m-b model and com stands for capability opportunity and motivation so actually the next step is to assess with the client absolutely with the client this is not to be done on them this is to be done with discussion with them where they fit in each of these because what the model is is that they're going to be able to assess with the client absolutely with the is basically um behavior is shaped by these three things not by willpower not by discipline because all these things impact so in capability we have physical capability which is things that are individual to us energy levels pain levels illness chronic conditions fitness levels all things that are unique to us so when someone says let's keep the marathon example i want to run a marathon um i'd like to do the london one in june you will assess their physical capability by talking with them about what do they currently do have they ever run before have they even done a couch to 5k or are they literally still on the couch like what where are they in terms of physical fitness and do they have any chronic conditions that need to be taken into account are their energy levels the same every day are they going through menopause and actually some days they have zero energy and they're really struggling to get on with their life like what is it about them physically that gives them the capability of doing this and if it's not all in the place it needs to be to just leap straight in with a smart plan to to set us towards our london marathon goal what might we need to support them with in order to do that what might they need to change in order that they need to go to a doctor and get some support with hrt if it's the menopause example you know that sort of thing so that's the first one capability is physical capability is also on the individual level so if you're in a position where you're in a position where you're in a position level psychological so what knowledge do they have what skills do they already possess um emotional regulation around things you know how good are they are they in emotionally regulating towards something that's hard or do they kind of throw their hands in the air and go oh my god i'm a failure and give up straight away um do they have a growth mindset when they talk about things um or do they seem to kind of have quite a fixed mindset that they're either good or something that they're not or they're doing it or they don't and these are very very um important for us as pts to understand because you know again if we're helping someone to work towards something that they do seem you know pretty intrinsically motivated to achieve like this is really important to me i feel like i've made this choice i know i've made that choice but essentially if they're an all or nothing person maybe we're going to have to support them on the all or nothing mindset you know i'm going to have to support them on the all or nothing mindset and i'm going to have to support them on the all or nothing mindset and i'm going to have to support them on the all or nothing mindset and i'm going to have to support them on the all or nothing mindset and i'm going to have to support them on the all or nothing mindset and i'm going to have to support them on the all or nothing in order for them to be able to achieve it so that kind of area is important too and also i'd say how much cognitive load how much stress does a person have in their daily life if you're asking them you know to take on four days of training a week um and you want them to kind of monitor that progress and record it and so on and so forth you know what else is going on in their life that makes it feel as though by the end of a working day they're able to go for that run they're able to do that training themselves to get out that door when they're feeling incredibly tired you know what what does their day look like because all of that has a psychological pressure on us and of course none of this thing can happen by just going um so how often would you like to train uh or i think you need to train three days a week are you committed we have to ask them the questions what's your job like when does it get stressful like how do you feel around that when something gets really hard how do you respond to that like what's your go-to do you find it easy to do you rise to a challenge or do you find it like when something gets really challenging you just kind of want to go and hibernate uh and hide away like how do you feel about this kind of thing what examples can you give me uh or can you give me an example of a time when you really felt like you achieved something i mean now i sound like i'm in a job interview but i was just
Speaker 2thinking that this is my list of my strengths and my weaknesses and an example of when i when i displayed this characteristic yeah
Speaker 1but those sorts of things are super helpful why they ask i mean job interviews right uh for understanding that psychology of that person and and how they will respond to the demands you because that's what you've got as a pt right you have an understanding of the demands so you can ask the questions which help that person to understand for themselves so that's capability any questions claire capability
Speaker 2no
Speaker 1this is great i'm
Speaker 2loving it i think this is gonna be my favorite podcast ever i i'm gonna be my favorite podcast ever i'm gonna be my favorite podcast ever i'm gonna i might have a nap if you're nothing
Speaker 1okay so should we move to opportunity opportunity yes let's the o in the combi model so opportunity again this is there is physical physical is in there twice because physical relates to the personal and the individual but it also relates to the environment and the social so physical is how much time does someone have available how much money what kind of access to environments they have how safe does their environment feel what about child care particularly when you're talking to women you have got to talk to them about child care or about caring responsibilities in general because actually when we hit a different age group of sort of like 30s late 30s plus you could be talking about parental care as well so it's really super important to understand what takes their time what takes their physical what is their physical environment like and what access do they have or are they restricted from and some of this you know is also psychological I think physical safety although is environmental is also psychological so many women have told me over the years that the reason that they stop running in the winter is because the only time available to them is before or after work. They don't have an opportunity in the working day and it doesn't feel safe to run outside. It doesn't matter whether it is safe. We're not going to pull some stats up and tell them, well, actually crime statistics in your area of attacks against women are, we're not going to do that. We're going to listen to that, that concern and that fear. And then again, that is stuff that they and you need to work out a plan for and to work around if that is a challenge and a difficulty. To achieve that goal, you might think you need to see them three or four times a week, but maybe they don't have the money to pay you to do that. So how do we work around that so that they still have access to what you know they need to achieve the goal, but that they are actually able to physically achieve that with the time, money, environment and family situation. Yeah. So you're not just looking at
Speaker 2the sort of positive sides, which, you know, words like opportunity and stuff like that tends to make you sort of think that way. It is about digging into sort of what are these potential barriers? What are the things that, you know, the real life of doing this? Because in order to be able to look at all of that stuff, the time, the money, the social, you need to be able to look at all of that stuff. So you need to be able to look at all of that stuff. So you need to be able to start thinking, how's this going to look in real life, in my life? And what does it really, really mean? And how do I make these changes? Where are the bits where I'm going to go? It's easier not to. And that kind of stuff, because ultimately it's pretty much always easier not to make the change because whatever it is you've been doing already is the habit you've already got. And it's the routine you're already in. It's what you expect to do. And it's kind of what others around you expect you to do. So it's just comfortable to stay there. And so these sort of stages give you that opportunity to sort of identify that. And without knowing that, then it makes it even tougher to make a change, right? Because you have to acknowledge the problems.
Speaker 1This kind of thing really reminds me of when it was about September last year, and I started a piece of work with early years and children and young people service in one of the greater Manchester boroughs. And I started this, basically this piece of work where we begin with what's called co-design. So it's essentially a research, qualitative research, discussion groups, forums, where we ask people questions, about what enablers are in your life that help you with movement and what are barriers in your life that prevent you from being able to move more. And the goal in all of this work is to work with people in the early years and children, young people field to support them in helping parents and children in moving more. But obviously we also need to support them in understanding what helps them to move and so on and so forth. So all of this is about people having conversations. And so I did a co-design session where for majority of the two hours I was with those people, the conversation turned to caring in a way none of the co-design work I've done has ever before. And I've done work with certain boroughs where it's about getting unemployed people moving more, where it's about getting people long-term health conditions moving more, where it's just about getting the general population moving more. And so I've done work with some of those people in the early years and children, young people so essentially that was our workforce. And never before therefore has the barrier been so clear for one particular population. And that was one, childcare. And then there were a few people at the older end of the spectrum, their kids had grown up, but now they were having to look after their parents. And they felt as though that barrier was going to be a barrier and that the barrier had never ended. It had just seamlessly switched between looking after the children to then looking after their parents. And it was huge for them. Now I'm in a room as well with people who've told me they love exercise. It's not a single one of those people that told me it was a bad thing or they didn't enjoy it. They were highly motivated to exercise, but every single one of them said that particularly when they had children, the ability to do that was practically impossible. And actually some of them had sort of almost noticed after the time, but not even at the time that whilst their husbands went to the gym on the way home from work, they didn't have that opportunity and they didn't find a way to get out the house and move. And they didn't really notice how much it had impacted until after the event, because actually they were focused so much on the kids. So sometimes people don't even notice what it is that's taking their time. But I think we have to accept that systemically, particularly in this country, Women provide the childcare, even if the guys are great and they really are very present as parents, the women are still generally speaking, the ones who are taking on the bulk of that because our society is set up for it to work that way. I mean, parental paternal parental leave is only just changing to actually mean that dads can do more of that when children are first born. So inevitably this is always going to be a barrier. So I think like all that kind of stuff, if you knowing who you're working with and knowing what their potential barriers can be to the goals they want to achieve can help you then ask the right questions as well. And that kind of physical environment, social environment is really important because actually that leads us to the second bit of opportunity, which is social. What are the norms for that person? What supports do they have around them? What stigmas surround exercise? Because I've talked to people in South Asia. I've talked to people in Western Asian communities where women are, it's stigmatized to exercise. So, you know, what are we looking at that is going to impact socially their ability to achieve this goal? What are the cultural expectations of their role in society and in the home that might impact in it? So those cultural expectations actually have an impact as well, or even their religious beliefs on where they can exercise the environment in which they can do that, who they can be around, the clothing that they're going to wear. All these things make a difference. And unless we actually bring that into account, when we're talking to people, we could be missing a huge part of why they're not achieving that behavior change we expected to be easy. You know, when someone comes in and says, I want to lose weight and they just don't seem to be, but they're not putting the behavior changes in place, maybe the barrier is not an individual one. Maybe it's something else that's environmental or it's social.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. And that's where, with a lot of, as with everything we do, one of the biggest areas is always going to be communication and that kind of being open, listening properly, being understanding of situations and not trying to jump straight to a solution, but kind of dig a little bit and get the individual you're talking with to come up with the potential solutions or ways around things. Yeah, absolutely. Very much so.
Speaker 1And also like understanding what it's like for them at work. Some people, you know, have companies that are starting to actually try and provide opportunities to move more during the working day, because it is something that as a society we're starting to understand is important. But also, there's a lot of working environments that you are clocked on the time you are in that building, the time you are plugged into that computer, and you are getting a lot of information and you're getting a lot of information and you're given a very specific amount of time to go for a wee or eat your lunch. So, you know, what is their working day like that they have access and availability to change the things you know they need to change? And then the last one is motivation. Now, motivation, we talked briefly about before, but it isn't just about how much, how motivated do you feel? I'm very motivated. Bad, bad, bad, bad conversation. You're never going to get anything out of that. There's two different types of motivation. There is reflective motivation that is around our beliefs, our values, our intentions, the way we view ourselves, our identity. identities and how they are seen by other people, how we want to put ourselves out to the world. So that is one way. They are things we can think about. They are things that we can plan. They are things that we tend to understand a little more about ourselves than I could tell you about. But my automatic motivation, the habits I've built or haven't, the emotions I experience, the stress responses I have, I might not be aware of those. And actually, I might even be aware that some of the habits I have actually are a result of stress responses that I have. And so actually, that's something that we might be finding out with that person over time, you know, when they react in a way we didn't expect them to because they appear to be highly motivated and it did seem to fit very much in with their value system of what they want to achieve. Suddenly they didn't. Oh, why? Well, because humans are emotional. And actually helping people understand that can be really important. And I actually think understanding as well that many of the things people come to us to solve are often already mired in emotion. So weight loss, there's chances of an adult coming to you to lose weight hasn't just come to you for the first time ever in their entire life and never anyone else or tried anything else. There is a chance and a very strong chance of that, that they're not going to be able to it's already emotionally loaded, what they want to achieve. Even exercise, it's not neutral for so many people. For so many people, exercise is connected in with the failure at school. The number of people as I in these co-design sessions, I've just given them the word exercise. There's such negative words come out and it makes me feel like, oh, goodness, this is what we do to people in the 90s, especially. It was just kind of like, you know, we were all forced to do exercise. So for people, there is so much emotion and connections that are in the past, but matter so much now to what they're helping with. So listening out for whether they're talking in a way which denotes that they feel shame, or they connect it with senses of failure, or that there's a past trauma connected to it in some way, or even weight stigma. Weight stigma is huge. We've talked about that in past podcasts. But it's huge. And it's impact that it has because it might threaten their sense of identity, or their sense of self worth. And actually, therefore, then that avoidance of things that you've all agreed that they're going to do is actually a protective response. So there's lots of reasons why our automatic responses might actually impact what we're talking about. And again, you can't solve that for someone. But by helping them understand what it is that might be accounting for it, could then help you have a chat together about how they think there could be a good way around it. And again, we can go back then to the self determination theory, or something else that's talked about in a lot of the communications courses, which is the core emotional concerns. And again, we can go back then to the self determination theory, or something status, autonomy, belonging, safety, roles, like those are really important to make sure that somebody is feeling like they're safe, essentially, so that they can carry on. I'd say if anyone's interested as well, core emotional concerns is good to read up about. And there's of course, in the bar that includes things like that about it. Kathy McDonald's, isn't it? Which is and then also looking at threat. versus reward theories, which is neurobiology, and the way in which we automatically have responses to things based on our past histories, which have created those responses, and we're not necessarily aware of. And I mean, it's a it's a classic kind of CBT work, which is very much set up for someone to be able to work through on their own as well. So it's possible, you know, a lot of these self health books are written around this kind of idea of, acknowledging, identifying, and then addressing those core beliefs that have come out that might be preventing you or might be creating a response, you didn't know you had to something and causing an avoidance reaction, despite the fact you really want it. And this is it, you're not going to hear from them that like, but I didn't really want it. Maybe it was maybe it wasn't really a goal. Maybe like, no one's gonna say that. But I don't understand. I really want to achieve this. Why am I doing this? And not what we agreed I'd do late. Most of the time, we don't know why it's happening ourselves. That's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2Because you can have two very strong feelings that are opposed to each other around something. It's not the absence of care, it can be that they care a lot, but they also care a lot about this other thing. And they're in direct opposition. And so you've got to be able to make those changes. I think that the concept of ambivalence, which I think sometimes gets stood as kind of like, I'm ambivalent, I don't care. When in reality, it can be no, I care strongly about making this change. But I also care strongly about this behavior that it or this thing that this behavior is helping me with on a subconscious level or a conscious level. And so it's one of those things, I think that when you start with behavior change, you discover things. It's like at it as almost like, what are we discovering along this journey? And how do we then address that or make changes? So when you have these two strong things, how do we shift it so they're not equal anymore? And which one comes down a step and which one goes up a step? And how do you start to move these things forwards? But it's only when you go to change stuff sometimes that you realize some of the reasons why something is happening. And that kind of thing. So it can be a real, a real exploration, I think.
Speaker 1Yes, exactly. Absolutely. And, you know, the person's central nervous system is incredibly important in this, because no matter how good a plan is, if whatever you're trying to achieve at that moment in time feels like a threat, the automatic response from the central nervous system will be to avoid. So if you want to make significant changes, what you have to do is set it in a stable context So essentially, that person has to understand why they're reacting the way they are to what's happening in order then to be able to create the right context in which to work through it. It's no good saying, well, you're just going to have to get up early before your children to do the exercise. If that creates a situation where they're constantly on edge as to when that child's going to wake up, will they hear me? Because now I'm up before they are. And of course, when mummy's up, everyone's blooming up. Or is it, or do I have to leave the house in order to do that? Which point I'm feeling psychological safety issue around leaving the house in the dark, particularly in the winter. And whether or not actually the children are going to get up when they're told they're out and whether my husband is going to actually do what he's told, said he'd do and get them up or whether they're all going to be late. And then, you know, all of that is there in the background potentially going on. It's not a relaxed central nervous system. It's that context just isn't working. So we have to work with the person. We have to understand their, um, basically their capability, opportunity and motivation and how that works past a simple, well, do you want it enough? Yeah, of course they do.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. And, and yeah, we've used examples throughout this, but those are sort of general examples. And each individual, we'll have specific things, whether it's male or female, whether they're young or old, whether they've got kids or don't have kids or parents or not parents and all of that kind of stuff. So it's that key step is always the sort of communication and creating that environment where people feel comfortable sort of sharing, exploring and, and sort of going, well, yeah, this is the, the reason, because a lot of these things can sound, a bit silly when we say them out loud. The examples we've used all sound fine, right? There are the ones you always have these things that this is a, uh, sounds legit. And then you have the ones that are kind of like, I'm saying this out loud, but it sounds a bit, bit silly, but it it's as valid as anything else to that individual and the way that they feel about something and the way that it might limit them and whether, whether that's, you know, whichever one of these categories it falls into, whether it's environmental, whether it's social, whether it's about their safety, whether it's about these kinds of, um, habits that have built up over time, because let's face it, unless you're working with people at the younger end of the scale, we've all got habits that we've built up for all sorts of different reasons over the years. And some are really helpful and some are really unhelpful, but they're there. And it doesn't matter how unhelpful they are, helpful it is that doesn't necessarily make it any easier to change it and to go oh okay that's not really helping me at all let's do something different because before you know it you're doing that thing because that's what you've done at that time or in those circumstances for however long you've been doing it so these kind of things are all all stuff to take into account and particularly when we're looking at it rarely being one thing we're looking to change when we're looking at behavior change there's normally ongoing things even if you went for something that sounds really simple like I'm going to drink more water it's something that you're aiming to do multiple times a day which means you've got multiple opportunities for other things to come up and and and make make that change not happen
Speaker 1right yeah absolutely I mean actually it sounds like a crazy example right I want to drink more water as a teacher I found that so hard I knew I was a fully dehydrated being by the end of the day at school and that was partially because I would drink at the start of the day and then I knew there was a cap on what I could sip throughout my day that meant I could bounce between lesson and break where there's still kids and then lesson and lunch where there's still kids and then lesson and then revision before I would be bursting for a wee and there's absolutely no way I could because I'm not getting from where my classroom is to the toilet in time before that next class arrives like it's just that's the way my day was structured and so I could have as many as many bottles of water on my desk as you wanted me to have I was too scared to drink them because every time I drank more I needed to go for the throw away and that's just not possible in that type of day so yeah I mean it's like questions that can really help about what's going to make this easy in your day what's going to make this hard in your day what gets in the way when life happens what what are you going to need to change around you like all these things are questions that are so much more powerful than and how motivated do you feel to achieve this which doesn't really tell us anything and I think there are also questions that we have to keep returning to because as we find sticking points coming up along the way because the other thing to remember is the behavior change is not linear in any way shape or form for anyone that it's going to be messy it's going to be cyclical we're going to keep coming back to a point we've been at before and having to go again um it's going to be context specific like all of these things are really super important and so we're going to have to keep returning to that question again okay have we noticed something else that gets in the way we didn't know about before right how do we plan it how do we deal with that yeah I
Speaker 2that kind of identifying some of the what are the negative consequences of making the change we want to change to change as well as what are the positive consequences of keeping the thing that we're currently doing which normally we go into something wanted to change it because of these are the negative things of what I'm currently doing and these are the positive things of the change I want to make and we that's what we're looking at that kind of like that way round and switching it is really valid because that's when your things like yes but if I drink more water I need to put in a drink um you know that's that's where the yes but by sticking to what I currently do I've got this system I don't need to start worrying about these changes so I I think that's that's sort of another key way of looking at it is going hang on a second I know I want to you know I've said I want to change this because this stuff's negative and making that change gives me these positives but there's there's also going to be but what are the consequences uh in both directions because then I can start to go well oh okay now I can build build structures and systems around those I can look at the the negatives that might come up and go well okay how am I going to address those and I can look at the the positives I currently have and go is there any way I can maintain those or bring those through in a different way with a different behavior and and that kind of again can help us build these these structures because ultimately what we're our aim is whatever the behavior we're aiming to change our goal is that it just becomes something that happens not something that we have to consciously work on forever more yeah um that's the point of these behaviors isn't it that they become habitual and that they're supporting the the lifestyle that life the the way we want to be in a positive way so our goal is to get to a stage where this is just what I do and I don't have to think about it um and sometimes that can feel like it's a really long way off I'm gonna have to be consciously making myself do this thing forever more
Speaker 1yeah and that's why I think we talk about it as though it's discipline because it feels that way especially in the beginning but actually what all of the complex systems thinking changing all of that tells us is that it's environment environment will always persist um so actually gathering information that helps you to navigate that environment is then basically what creates consistency not discipline discipline in the face of a disruptive environment will do nothing because you are just going to keep feeling like you're battling and eventually you will give up because you've relied on willpower and there's too much other stuff in your life that takes that willpower in a day in a week in a month in a year so essentially that's not going to work but if we can look at it instead of looking at it something like um I'm succeeding or I'm failing but instead of oh okay what information did we gain from that what did we learn and how do we address that so that we know that this is a part of the environment we hadn't considered how do we navigate that environment how do we put changes in place that help us to deal with that environment and when we have that then actually now all the knowledge we have the motivation we have like it all comes into place and fits together so it does start to feel effortless we're not constantly fighting because we've worked out what those barriers
Speaker 2were yeah and all of those are different and for each individual and that's something again I think so many times um somebody will come up with a model that kind of tries to give the answer and it's kind of like whether that's something where they've they've kind of creating something based on some sort of logic or based on will this work for me or it worked for my best friend or my mom or whatever it is and it just doesn't take into account each individual and what what works for them because it's really easy to pick out random behaviors and go well that's a good one everyone should do it um whether that's drinking more water whether that's um reading more books whatever it is there's these kind of things that everyone goes well there's a lot of things that I don't know nothing wrong with that but then there was there were always examples where for some people it's like that is not a good thing to do um I hold my hand up and say I should not be reading more I should be reading less I should I should be reading less and doing more other things moving more probably would be one of them so you know there's there's not anything where you can go this is going to work for everybody or even necessarily the majority it's always about the individual and what are the things that are going to work for everybody and I think that's important to them in a good way or a bad way um because some things that people find the the sort of stuff that might I might struggle with somebody else be like that's really that's not a problem that's absolutely fine whereas for me this other thing's a problem you know and I might be going well no that's that's not an issue for me you know and and you can easily get caught up in stuff like that where you're saying well okay let's start by addressing how much alcohol you drink and you know that might come up in conversation with me and I'm like it's really not an issue I genuinely don't drink very often um depends how often my mom's staying with me or I'm staying with my mom it's my mom's fault my mom is a bad influence um but yeah that doesn't happen that often so it's not an issue let's not waste our energy on that one let's find something else that is more relevant to me if we're looking at behavior change um and so yeah you for me I might be looking at my reading not my alcohol intake somebody else it might be they're looking at their alcohol intake and not not trying to address their reading but I think there's so many things out there uh which we're drawn to because there are they do give us these select answers you can find a list of things that everyone can do and that's you know the the sort of um what are the the most um successful people doing type lists and all of that kind of stuff these listed behaviors and ways to ways to overcome them by getting up earlier or making sure you do all these things before you look at your phone or whatever whatever the structure is rather than looking at the individual and just going what makes sense for you and your life and your structures that you have in place already whether they're um external or kind of internal instinctive type ones there's we've all got these sort of like differences so when we're working with people on behavior change I think one of the key things is being able to look at the really look at the individual rather than going well generally these are the things that you know everyone could
Speaker 1do yeah yes exactly absolutely and unless you have those individual conversations with them where they where as well I think they feel safe to tell you the things that you both need to know they there will always be a power dynamic in a coach client relationship and so if you're not getting this information out maybe they're not feeling like um they won't be judged maybe if they say well so create in the right context and situation for your coaching relationship is also super important that they know that when they say well I think that actually a really big issue with this might be x y and z that they can say it because they don't think you're going to go what be ridiculous that's not a thing that exists um and and to create that kind of idea is is as a coach to be really open with you know like acknowledging that this is going to be a very individual journey that we're going to need to get curious about things that stuff might come up for you that you've never even known about and that you've never even known about and that you've never even thought would be an issue um but you might discover along the way and and to kind of you know pose it as that rather than I know how to get you to your goal but and then anybody else around it does and I'm going to get you there if you do as I say let's open a relationship where we can talk to each other we can understand your mindset maybe a way that even you don't understand it right now and then let's work together to get you to this goal that you really want to achieve yeah absolutely I think that's that's
Speaker 2massive and I know I again from my point of view if anyone kind of just sort of came to me said I know how to sort of help you be like you don't know anything about me um I mean unless you've listened to all our podcasts in which case you found out it was kind of weird wonderful facts so somebody can have a whole dossier on Claire it's quite scary isn't it but but that kind of approach generally doesn't doesn't help I think it it's about understanding that into vigil and uh and making as you say making it okay to to say hi my name's Claire I may have a reading problem um or something else that you're like nobody says this this can't be a thing um but without yeah without you know knowing that it's a safe space that you can can share that or indeed a public forum where you're putting it out there for the world to hear indeed that too you might have people
Speaker 1after this they're like I have a reading problem so I'm not going to share that with you I'm not going to share that with you too you can come together and share I need to read more that's what I that's one of my goals this year read more you never know by the end of the year I could join your group Claire maybe that'll happen absolutely
Speaker 2I mean there's so much when it comes to behavior change and because of all the nuance and because of all the individual elements to it is there a way you think we can summarize this up yeah how would you kind of bring this together I
Speaker 1think I would probably end it with a question to the people listening right so if if you assumed that your clients are already doing the best that they can with the resources that they have what would you change in your coaching
Speaker 2nice that's that's that's deep that's going to take a go away and think about it my show is absolutely yeah perfect piece of advice place to end this
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