Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the James Kennedy podcast. I hope you're all splendid. I have got an awesome, awesome episode lined up for you guys today. We've got a guest coming on who has crushed it on both sides of the music industry as an artist and as the owner of a legendary music label. But before we get down to it, I'm going to give a plug for something I don't think I've ever done on the podcast in the entire time I've been doing this thing. I'm going to give a plug for myself. Because if you didn't see it on my socials last week, my band, James Kennedy and the Underdogs, are back on the scene, baby. It's been a long, long hibernation. It's been a long winter, man, but we are back. We announced our live show coming up in Newport on August the 12th in South Wales with some awesome, awesome bands. There are some more live shows coming really soon, I promise you, but I can't tell you what they are just yet. But shit's going to be coming in quick and fast, so keep your eye on the pages. And if you don't know anything about me as a musician, you just listened to the podcast, then you need to check out my band, man. Go to Spotify. Type in James Kennedy. Two of us will come up. I am not the blonde DJ douche from the reality TV show Vanderpump Rules. I'm not that guy. I am the scowly, pissed-off, rock-looking guy with a leather jacket and black hair. Check out my latest album, Make Anger Great Again. If you like rock music and you like politics and sticking it to the man, then you're going to like that record. Check it out. All my music videos are up on YouTube. My channel is James Kennedy Stuff. Again, if you type in James Kennedy into YouTube, you're going to get a lot of click-baity stuff from Bravo TV. Or the other guy, the reality TV show guy. That's not me. I don't have blonde hair. I have black hair and I sing in a rock band. So if you go to James Kennedy Stuff or if you type in James Kennedy Singer, that will give you all my stuff. That separates the shit from the gold there, right? So check us out, man. Let us know what you think. Join my page. It's at Instagram. It's JamesKennedyUK. JamesKennedyUK on Facebook and Twitter and JamesKennedyStuff.com. We'll link you into everything. There's links to my book there. There's links to articles I've had published. Tons of interviews and free music and videos and merch and all sorts of shit, including the podcast. So JamesKennedyStuff.com is the hub for all things to do with me. Right now, that is the plug over. That wasn't too painful, was it? Now, before I bring on the actual talent of the show today, I want to ask you one more time to subscribe to the podcast. Whatever platform you listen to it on, whether it's Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, Cashbox, or if you watch it on YouTube, give us a follow. Give us a subscribe. Leave a comment. Engage. Give us a star rating. Like I said, it all helps to keep the algorithm beast happy, which enables me to keep doing this thing. So if you could click those buttons for me, that would be a massive help. Thank you so much. Now, let's get down to business. Simon Raymond is a man who should need no introduction. As a member of the era-defining Cocteau Twins, and now as the long-standing owner of the legendary Bella Union Records. If I tried to unpack this man's entire and incredible resume into an intro here, we'd likely be here for the next hour, and it was still be woefully incomplete. So I think just much better this time to just actually bring on the man himself and get on with it. So Simon, thanks so much for doing this, man. How are you doing?
Speaker 2Well, thank you very much. After an intro like that, it's going to be good, I'm sure.
Speaker 1Well, we'll soon find out. I feel like it was quite a lazy intro. That's the first time I've ever done that, where I basically pass the buck onto the guest to tell us what they've done. Because you have done so much. Obviously, I've mentioned the two biggies there, you know, the Cocteau Twins and the record label. But you do a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff, man. So what are some of the things I've left out there?
Speaker 2I mean, there's always something, you know what I mean? I like, I surprised myself at times. And I think I've got a lot of friends who like, are always quite amazed at what why I'm still so interested in what I do, you know, and like, why are you so busy? You're so busy, and I'm quite old now. So you'd think I probably learned how to slow down, but I haven't really. I suppose because I really love what I do, you know, I'm very lucky to be in the music business. I adore it. Of course, it's incredibly frustrating at times. And there's things about it, I absolutely can't stand. But the music part, you know, the listening to the discovery of the making of those are all things that I still get a huge amount of pleasure out of. Right. So you've covered it just about but any any gaps, we can always fill them in later.
Speaker 1I'm sure we'll fill them in as we go. Yeah, on that point, just mentioned, is that what keeps you going? Because I mean, you have been doing this a long time now, I mean, the label started what 97 late 90s, and obviously, you had a whole career before that as well. I'm sure you've experienced a lot of struggles and hardships and industry bullshit and letdowns and screw overs and disappointments along the way, is what you just alluded to, then what keeps you going, just the the primal love of the music and the art form, which is essentially why we all get into this in the first place? Is that what still keeps you going now through all those struggles?
Speaker 2Yeah, it really is the only thing that keeps me going, because certainly the you know, any like financial benefit is long gone, that you know, there's not any anymore. So yeah, I think it's because I just do love discovering music, you know, whether it's creating my own or, or just listening to a SoundCloud that might come in in five minutes time is I keep waking up thinking, today might be the day I'm just, I'm not going to press that link. I'm not going to or I press it and I'm like, yeah, not really bother me, I just don't care anymore. I expect that to happen. But I hasn't yet, which is, I suppose, a blessing. And that's, I suppose, the main reason I keep going, you know, because, as you say, there's so many things that are annoying about the music business. Well, pretty much 95% of it is annoying. Right. But, you know, the bands and the music are the least other things that, you know, I still get a huge amount of enjoyment out of helping new bands because I do management as well now. Yeah. I manage a lot of bands. As well as the label stuff. Not just Bell Union ones, but quite a lot of bands that, you know, have nothing to do with Bell Union per se, other than the management side. So I really enjoy the managing as well as the label now because it enables you to help more. You know, you get a label, you know, what do you do? You put, you know, you put a record out. It's like, it's quite simple. Obviously, if the record does well and you build a long relationship with a band, whether, you know, like Beach House or John Grant or Father John Misty. For example, people we've worked with for a long, long, long, long time. That's a beautiful thing because you're building a friendship and a relationship that hopefully will, you know, last a huge amount of time. But also the help in the baby bands is what I really love as well, because as a 60 year old fella and there's been in the music business, I don't know, 45 years or whatever stupid number is. I can pass on some wisdom, I would guess, you know, and I think that is an attractive to a young band.
Speaker 1100%. Yeah. Well, it's the wisdom. I want to tap into, to be honest, because, yeah, you've seen both sides and you've seen the industry change as well. I mean, what I find interesting about it, what your your artistic career was predominantly in the old model, I suppose we could call it. But then when you set up the label in 97, you were still very much in the old model, but you were just a few years away from the big changeover. So I'd be interested to know what that was like at the time that you were in it, because I came on the circuit. My first album came out 2002. So I was kind of. Right at the start of the big shift. And I didn't know what the fuck was going on for many years because we didn't realize that we were in this changeover until, you know, with hindsight, you know what I mean? At the time, it was just what the fuck's going on. So what was that like when you set up a label? I'm assuming you set it up pretty much in the traditional model. And then within a few years, everything changed. How did you navigate that?
Speaker 2Yes, very badly. Yeah. I mean, you know, it is funny looking back. I've been writing a book of the last six months, a sort of memoir of sorts. And, you know, having to go back to sort of dates and times and remember events like, for example, how long it takes to get a record pressed. Obviously, everyone knows right now how vinyl production is a complete mess and, you know, can take anywhere between seven or eight, nine, ten, up to a year to get it made. I was looking back to the sort of early 80s when Cocktail Twins were put in our record. And I said, like, we made this record in like February, and then it came out in March on vinyl. And I'm like, I completely forgotten that, you know, you could literally make a record in three or four weeks, three or four weeks. But, you know, just just get your head around that for a minute, because all we know about in the last few years is just, well, you can forget about putting it out anytime this year. It'll probably be, you know, a year from now. And all the bands are like, really? Oh, OK. Now, that is a whole. That is like a shift change beyond belief. Obviously, the reliance on vinyl has changed over the years. Obviously, in the 80s, it was still huge. And then when CDs came along, it sort of dropped off almost altogether. And probably around about the time you mentioned there, 2002, it was still a bit weird to be pressing vinyl on. It was just all CDs. And then CDs just fell off the map in the last couple of years. And now we're back making vinyl again at quite a high level. So that's one. One. It's a change. Yeah. Contracts have changed quite dramatically. Well, actually, they haven't. That's a lie. They still look identical in terms that they're a massive rip off for the artists. You know, they don't make sense when you look at a sort of standard template contract today. It's actually not dramatically different from how it was in the 80s. But I think what's happened is. You know, a lot of lawyers are like, no, we're not signing that. It doesn't make any sense. And a lot of artists are saying. We're not signing that. We'll just do it ourselves. We'll put our records on our own and we'll make a hundred percent of the money. rather than sign with you and have some feeble royalty so good i mean it could take us literally all day to discuss the differences between then and now um and that that shows you how dramatic it is certainly the finances are way way way way different you know there was so much more money available to a record label in the 80s and the 90s than that even even in the early even in the late 90s when belly union began just putting out um the first record was was what was almost my solo record and i mean nobody really knew who i was but i was in the coxswain so it had a little bit of i don't know intrigue about it at the time and as a result it it sold i don't know around 15 20 000 cds because there was no vinyl at that point now if you sold 15 or 20 000 cds right now you'd be in the you'd be number one in the chart for about a month yep now to get in the charts now to get in the top 10 now you know i sold like two or three thousand records that's it it's
Speaker 1fucking mad isn't it
Speaker 2so so so obviously the streaming site yeah so he's mad you know the streaming side has obviously taken over massively um and that's a whole nother conversation again but um the finances are obviously massively different um and i don't really know how we're still here because we've we've survived two of um seismic if you like uh earthquakes with with music you know uh sorry with with the finances like uh we lost 100 grand twice when our distributor went bust and then our licensing partner went bust all within about a year wow 100 grand back in the in the early tooth and the in the mid in the mid first decade of the 2000s was that's a massive amount of money for a little tiny independent and i don't really know how we recovered from that it's it's more kind of stubborn stubborn you know i don't like giving up and i don't um yeah i just really really stubborn so i said i had some couple of really great friends who were able to help me out um and that sort of kept the label just about ticking over until we signed fleet foxes and then and then when fleet foxes became like the biggest band on the planet for a few years that sort of saved the label right yeah yeah so there's been so many ups and downs
Speaker 1that's fascinating man i had brian slagle on the podcast you know from the he's the ceo of metal blade records he was on a few months ago and i he's been in the game about 40 years so i asked him you know a similar question and i said what do you think is the key to success a long-term success you know for a band or a label and he said the ability to adapt to change because there's always going to be change changes the in fact the only constant so just as soon as you think you know you're on a winning streak and you're up and running and you're crushing it you know a new uh long and trashes your whole business model and infrastructure or you know an economic recession or something completely left field comes along and it sounds like you've had your own fair share of that so i think it's interesting that you're describing a similar thing to brian there in your case it's sheer stubbornness just that refusal to give up and push through and keep it moving
Speaker 2yeah i mean you know you have to have a huge amount of luck on your side that's inevitably underplayed as a huge part of how this business is stuck as how this company has stayed in business and this one hasn't it's a huge amount of it is down to luck right being in the right place being the time but but you do have to sort of make your own luck in the music business you have to you have to just keep going and sort of wade through the the mire you know you you have to get through it you can't you can't get hit knocked down by by the by the things that go wrong you have to just keep dusting yourself off my wife's now in the business she's works with me on the management side and she's always saying how how are we going to get through this and i'm you just it doesn't matter anymore it's done you just have to get on with the next thing right i'm very used to because of all the because of all the drama from the past i'm very used to not actually being that affected right by something bad going wrong or seemingly bad going wrong because really in the grand scheme of things when you step back from it for a minute when you're out of the heat of the drama from the artist's side or the label side or someone manager side is getting their hair in a twist about it you once you step back and yeah but you know in the grand scheme of things you wake up tomorrow and we'll all still be here and it's still a great record and blah blah blah you you have perspectives that you wouldn't have had as a 20 year old right that's what age buys you you know so i've got that on my side and i think that enables me not to get too excited when something goes well or too downbeat when it doesn't yeah because it doesn't more often it does you know would you say
Speaker 1that it's this is probably you know an impossible question to answer because it's very basically framed but would you say that for an independent artist who doesn't have a label who isn't working with simon raymond is completely on their own without a budget um but talented as hell and hard working and wants to get out there and do their thing would you say that it's a better environment for somebody in that position now than it was when you started
Speaker 2i mean in one sense it is because you're able to do it when we started you know literally today i could make a song in the evening i can have it online for sale on all the on all the streaming formats and tomorrow it could be a tiktok sensation and then next month i could be a millionaire yes the answer is yes to that question is it very likely no it's it's probably less likely than it ever was and certainly back in the 80s you couldn't do anything like that well i mean you probably could do a little sort of independent release of your own but you know not many people did well not until independent labels started cropping up in this in the late 70s but yeah wholly different wholly different world i would say it's hard to be specific about it because every artist is quite different some some bands who've got four people in the band drum kits all that kind of thing they need a bit of help because their their thing needs a bit of money you know they need to go into a studio with an engineer they can't just do it in a little room like this i've got a little room in the in the back house i can come and make my music for nothing because i'm just sat here with me i've got everything i need yeah but that's not that's not the case for every single artist bedroom artist yeah sure you can make pop music in your bedroom and be a be a be a tiktok sensation overnight can you do that with a band who have a slightly different set of parameters going on probably not and that's why the idea of labels not being relevant anymore is a bit daft because there's a million different people out there all requiring different things right um and you know labels will be great for some artists and not great for others it's just the way of the world right
Speaker 1yeah 100 i mean that's kind of all i know really i mean i've got seven album back catalog and i've done all of my albums myself at my own home studio hasn't cost me a penny you know apart from you know a bit of mastering or artwork or you know pressing costs or something like that but i mean you know back in the 70s i wouldn't have been able to have done that i mean i probably could have made the recording if i could get enough funds to get to a studio or something but then what am i going to do with it with that master tape i mean mark chadwick said i mean what'd you do weave your own records or something like that you know these things were done on in big factories and stuff back then it was big budget stuff you had to have money it was physical product so i yeah i'm i'm a big fan of the current system because you know at my relationships with labels every time i've had one has resulted in you know either a court case or or me being completely fucked over from every angle so i like the fact that there's kind of a democratization and empowerment for artists now to be able to keep moving despite you know a lot of the uh the the famous music industry bullshit but the problem is is what do you do to get heard above the noise of everybody else doing that you know and that's where i think a label comes in because a label has got the uh the infrastructure the experience the know-how the budget and the expertise and the personnel you know and the talented people who and having you know many hands on deck as well you know work in your campaign around the world you know i think there are many reasons why labels are still essential and relevant
Speaker 2well that's 100 true as well um and i think that that's obviously a great part of uh of having a little independent label is being able to be that bridge between nothing and something um but as i say to all the bands i work with it's no guarantee you know there's there's no guarantee to just because i have a pretty decent contact book contacts list um it doesn't guarantee you anything you know so of course there's a hope that it might and maybe more more often than not just about it does work if i send an email to whoever lauren laverne or steve lemac or whatever they probably will read it because it's from me but that doesn't mean they'll like it and that doesn't mean they'll play yeah but at least you've got an in to you know a situation that you're probably on your own i mean anyone can find steve lemac's email it's not hidden you just have to look for it but whether he'll listen to it because an unknown artist sends it to him i mean actually steve probably would because he's a good bloke and he he enjoys discovering music as much as i do you know uh that you have to know these people to kind of know what their habits are and some people don't answer those some people don't read those emails at all and others do and some do sometimes and others don't ever you know i mean you have to sort of be in the business a long time to kind of understand which ones you can approach to get the help that you might need yeah but as i say it's there's no guarantees i've thought a million times a million times i've thought well marianne hobbs will love this and i've said it to her i'm like absolutely certain that she'll love it she's like no it's not for me and i'm uh you know you you can get very frustrated about it but at the same time you just have to accept that everyone's got their own taste and what's my taste is not necessarily anyone else's and i've learned that over the years not to be too down when one of my bands that i absolutely love that i've invested all this time and money in is no one else's you know flavor um it's hard it's hard i can't say it ever gets easier to accept but i have learned to just get over it quicker yeah and you
Speaker 1mentioned the power of luck earlier as well because that that that is the difference between those outcomes isn't it i mean you can have the best fucking band in the world with the best fucking song we were crushing it and you put the full weight of your resources behind them you put the money and the promo and everything into it and for some reason unbeknown to anyone it just doesn't stick you know and then you get those bands who just come out of nowhere you know they've just got the song that just takes off they have no label they might have a you know a cheap diy homemade video that just fucking gets a gazillion views or something like that and they just take off and there's just no rhyme or reason to it there's no format there's no method i mean you know how do you how do you make sense of that you
Speaker 2don't you don't is what yeah you can't because it there's it's a brand there's no reason why this didn't that didn't it's just the dots the dots didn't join up i mean quite often it's something as ludicrous as well we couldn't go on the playlist this week because we had there were like 52 other records and it just got pushed out at the last minute or it didn't get the review at the guardian loved it but they couldn't review it because they already had three big records and there's only room for two and something had to give and yours went you know it's you miss out on so many things just because your timing was a day off or a week off or a month off and you know you can't you shouldn't be you shouldn't be saying well the band never made it because they didn't get the playlist on radio 6 but you know you can look at how campaigns do suffer as a result of that and you know you can't you shouldn't be you shouldn't be saying well the and this is just because there's so much amazing music out there yeah and so little places for it to be covered that that's our problem it isn't it isn't that six music in the guardian aren't great it's just that there's not enough of them you know there's a there's a there's less and less reviews available in the guardian the sunday times financial times than there ever were you'd think there'd be more because of the on the internet you'd think well guardians the guardians online presence is massive surely they can have a hundred reviews a week on the guardian music page well they don't they only have they only have a handful so there's lots of things going against bands but at the same time are people really reading the guardian and listening to six music for discovering their music well i don't know that they are that much or two million people listen to six music and it's hugely important to those who listen to it but there's a heck of a lot of other people that you have to sometimes think outside of the obvious places to put your music and i suppose because i'm of a certain generation i've grown up with with six grown up with you know the mojos the uncuts or not q anymore but you know um the clash magazine these these sort of avenues into coverage are where we do tend to kind of start but if it doesn't work you have to be prepared to look
Speaker 1outside but what does outside look like to you because as an independent artist like myself and and my peers in my community we don't have access we don't have any ins to the mainstream media we're essentially outside of that club so the outside to us is essentially just the wild west mess of the internet and we're trying to navigate that ever-changing storm all of the time and trying to stay relevant and you know trying to ever you know conquer new platforms and learn new skills just to try and you know remain in people's awareness for more than five fucking minutes before the next bit of content comes along you know and like it could be very overwhelming it takes a lot of time it could be very disheartening and it could be very distracting and of course there was that uh viral tweet from mike shinoda you know from lincoln park posted that viral tweet which started a conversation um not so long ago where he said you know an artist's job is to be making music playing the instrument getting better at their craft playing shows and not to be you know constantly creating short form pointless bits of mindless content just to try and stay on people's news feeds for more than five minutes you know that's not our job and it's all gone a bit mental and i do agree with that because you know it is a full-time job making all of this content most of which has absolutely nothing to do with the music but all about just trying to keep a little bit of a fucking spotlight on yourself for two minutes so that is one of one of the major downfalls of um being outside of the mainstream model as you describe it so i'd be very interested to know how you how you approach that how you approach the outside from the label perspective
Speaker 2i leave it up to the artist to be honest with you because i i i feel like i kind of agree with all of those feelings if you want to be on it and listen it's already to say well i should be making music not doing that but you know we're all different the kids are different they grow up with a phone in their hands you know what i mean my sons don't think they had phones till they was 14 15 years old now probably kids are getting a 5 6 7 8 years old so their whole world is all around social media so for a 16 year old kid making music it would be weird if they weren't doing tiktok videos and and making facebook yeah not facebook on facebook you know on instagram and stuff because that's their world that's how they communicate with their friends that's how they communicate with their audience and that's why those artists are absolutely massive because their followings on twitter and on tiktok and what bring the income in because that's how their fans connect with them so it's it's easy to go well they shouldn't be doing it musicians should be making music well musicians of a certain age maybe but the young kids making music they're making music on their iphones you know they're making beats and playing keyboards and you know they're making me that's i think that's amazing i don't think that's terrible i also think tiktok's amazing obviously not the bit that you see with all the and the daft stuff but actually if you get into the nuts and bolts of of tiktok you can find and listen to some incredible tunes that you would never find on spotify yeah so it's easy to knock it because we only see one side of it it's just like oh tiktok's just for kids it's just stupid it's just dog videos it's just blah blah blah but actually if you if you if you if you spend the time to get into tiktok there are some great benefits to it on the music side um i don't because i'm 60 and i've got time but i know people that do and i know that it's not quite the the satan the site of satan that people would like us to believe it is so that's one thing how i believe other bands should should can progress is i think how we're going to have to do this in the future because of brexit because of the ludicrous cost of visas to travel to america now for for artists they're about to go up um to like sixteen hundred dollars from from 500 which is just going to make it's going to make it pretty much nigh on impossible for a band who are maybe like on their second record just about to maybe go and play new york and go to south by southwest or something at that level where they can their label may be able to help them out or they could do a crowd funder and raise five five ten thousand dollars to get them to the states it's almost that point where it's like it's not even worth it anymore because you're gonna have to spend twelve fifteen thousand dollars before you've even got off the plane yeah who can do that you know unless you've got a big label behind you and even the labels now are going nah it's too much right the returns are just uh there's no guarantee of the returns so the way i think the world is going musically for for a lot of young bands anyway is local i i i'm seeing big scenes blowing up locally that that's what i really feel is happening and you're almost like not even gonna go from let's say a bright band for example you may be selling out 150 200 tickets um in a club a pub in brighton are you then because before you'd have gone okay well the buzz will now spread and we'll be able to go and play it's around about the same amount of people in manchester that's not really happening because of whether it's going to be it's covid because it's just the money the economy right now people just don't have the money to go out five times a month like they did before covid maybe they go out once or people went out 10 times a month maybe now go out three or four times everything's changed we're cutting back because we don't have the finances to go out so so people are not being as adventurous as before in terms of going to see bands and of course the promoters are suffering badly because of this so i think what's going to happen is that bands are going to start going from 150 to 200 to 300 to 400 to 500 in their local town, in their local city where they're from, before they even feel confident about taking that next move to go on a tour. Of course, there's going to be a million examples where this isn't true, right? You'll see plenty of bands touring from around the world, but this is in the main, I think this is where we're going to have to go. Don't start getting too adventurous and start booking yourself a UK tour five minutes after you've formed, because only 10 people will turn up to the regional shows. I think you've just got to get really good. In fact, you've got to get fucking fantastic at home first, which is a bit like how it used to be back in the day. You had to be amazing before you went on the stage, otherwise you wouldn't last five minutes. And I think that's what's happening now. I'm starting to see incredible live bands in local sounds. And I think that's very, very encouraging, because people are. They're learning their craft. They're experiencing how to be on the stage, how to react to audiences, and how to put on a brilliant show. And that's actually very encouraging, because I don't think. I think live music has been a bit off in the last five or six years, probably for obvious reasons, but it feels exciting again.
Speaker 1Well, I love that idea, man. I mean, for me, that resonates very strongly with me, the whole punk rock aesthetic, you know, keeping it real, keeping it on the streets, keeping it affordable and attainable. You know, taking it back to the source. You know, that's what it's all meant to be about, having that intimate connection. I mean, you know, it all got a bit mental, I feel. We got a little bit off track, didn't we, with the big rock show aesthetic, and now, you know, fucking expensive festivals and stadium and arena gigs, when really, you know, it started out in the small grassroots venues, you know? So for me, you know, that transit van lifestyle, I still have a very romantic attachment to that world. And I feel like, yeah, that is what it's all about. It's about creating a scene on your doorstep first, and you're like, oh, I'm going to do this. You know, local town, getting a buzz going, getting something happening, you know, collaborating with other bands to actually build something on your doorstep. And, you know, and then export that further afield then, you know, as and when you can. But that, you know, that should come when it comes, man. Because certainly now in these times, you know, of uncertainty and difficulty, when people are struggling, when it costs a living crisis and everyone's pissed off, now is a better time than ever to do what we do best as artists and be able to give the gift that we have of music and good times, or, you know, letting off some steam, or having a good scream and shout and a slam dance, you know, whatever you've got to do. That's essentially our service that we provide, you know what I mean? So I think now is a better time than ever to do exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 2Yeah, and, you know, then the people in the town sort of feel their ownership about this band. I mean, you won't remember me too young, but like when the Stone Roses broke onto the scene back at Manchester in whatever year that was, you know, they were playing to a thousand people in Manchester because they just built up this insane. insane following in the town. And it gives this sort of pride in, they're one of ours, you know? And I think that's probably going to happen a lot more these days. I mean, look, it's not just you, it's not just bands of your size that can't go to Europe. It's bands like the Eels had to cancel a tour recently because they did the sums and they were like, it's just, it doesn't add up. It doesn't make sense. So if a band that big are looking at the numbers and it doesn't add up, then of course it's going to be impossible for everyone else. Uh, under, under that level, because you can't even hire a van anymore. There aren't any vans to hire. They're all out. And it's like 110, 120 quid to hire a decent, uh, splitter van. And then if you've got to have to stay overnight, how many of you, four of you? Yeah, we'll pile in a room together. No problem. Still going to be probably not short of a hundred quid. Yeah. Petrol on top of that 50 to a hundred. You know, it's going to be 500 pounds. If you're going to go up north to play a gig and you're probably getting 50, 50 quid for the gig. Yeah. So where's the other 450 quid coming from your merch? Probably not because you haven't been able to, you haven't been around long enough to make enough or afford enough to sell. It's really tough being a band right now. And I'm, you know, not going to, no one's going to get the violins out, but you know, I think it is a really tough time. And, um, that's why I think these local scenes are probably how it's going to go for a lot of artists.
Speaker 1That makes a lot of sense. I'm certainly seeing that myself. I mean, what would your, let's say, so you discovered a band and, and you fell in love with them and they were starting out and you just thought, yeah, I'm going to throw everything I got into this band. What would, how would you work around that situation that you want to get them out there? You want to get them doing some shows. Um, as you said, given all of the constraints, budgetary and otherwise that you've got to deal with right now, what would your approach be? Would it be to like, just rinse their hometown, just blast the hometown scene?
Speaker 2Well, I'm doing it with a couple of bands that I work with here. Um, I think you've got to take it step by step and you obviously got all, I don't want to work with people that don't with, with artists that don't get it. And when I say, when I say don't get it, I mean, understand what they're dealing with. There's no point like having stars in your eyes about this thing. And then it all just being a massive disappointment. A year later, you come back and you're like, Oh, this is a nightmare. I need to tell them it's a nightmare before they step up, step out and do it. You have to prepare people for the worst. So I'm saying to all the bands, you signed to a label, it doesn't mean fuck all. It doesn't mean anything. It just means you're maybe slightly better off than you were before. There's going to be an infrastructure there to help you with some of the things that may crop up, but it doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean you're going to sell any records. It doesn't mean you're going to stream anymore. It doesn't mean you're going to get any better gigs. It doesn't mean you're going to get on the radio. It means you might, whereas before it might've been harder, but that's the reality. So just take a step back and just a deep breath and don't worry about it because that stuff is out of all of our control anyway, right? You can't do anything about that. What can you do about it? You can make better sounding records. You can make better songs. You can get better as a live band. So why don't you focus on the things that you can do and I'll try and help you with all the other things, but I'm not a fucking magician and neither is anyone else here, but we'll do our very, very best because we think you're fabulous. And that's the sort of start point for the conversation. And if they're looking at you like, what are you talking about? Then it's probably not going to work. The relationship probably won't work. But if they like totally get it and sort of appreciate that what you're trying to do is help them get from A to B or A to sort of almost B, then the relationship will probably blossom and grow. And that's the way I kind of approach it. Find them a booking agent. That's very difficult right now. There aren't, you know, it's really hard to find a booking agent. Most of them are like, I'm too busy. They're still coming out of this COVID time, the pandemic where that's their roster. It's getting back into the world. They're very busy booking shows into the next year. It's quite difficult to find a young, motivated, excited booking agent that will want to work with your band. So that's that step one. My job is as a manager anyway, is to try and find that excited booking agent. There's no point just having someone that goes, Oh yeah, he does beach house. Oh, I'll do it because he's got a good label. That does not work right. You've got to find somebody that's passionate, hopefully as passionate as you are, or at least has the potential to be as passionate as you are about the band. We'll actually come and meet the band, see the band live. You know, it's no point just sending a link of the new record and go, do you want to be their agent? He has to come and see them. Yeah. Right. So you have to have a, you have to have something going on in your hometown where you can invite an agent down and you have to do it at the moment. You know that the band are good enough because if, if they're okay, there's no point inviting a booking agent down because he'll come down and see them, see that they're only okay, not see the potential maybe that you see and go, well, I thought they were all right, but I mean, there's 20 bands better than them that I've seen in the last month. Well, that's a, that was a waste of time. Then he's never going to come back. So you've got to get them excited up to a point. And then when the band are absolutely bang on ready and you, you just know they'll knock the socks off of, off the audience. That's when you put them in front of the booking agent. So it's all about like just waiting for the right moment, the timing, um, and then after that, you just got to hope that the, the learning curve for the band and that the progress is, is on an upward thing. Hopefully a steep one. Some bands go real quick in that first year or two. They just learn so much and they're so brilliant. You just, they just get it. And other bands just like flatline for a while. And you do wonder at that point, if you've made a bit of a, um, an error of judgment, but all of a sudden, sometimes those, those, those bands can take off. They just need a little tweak, a week and off it goes. So I don't know what the secret is, is to it. It's just constantly thinking and talking and with all the people that I work with, whether it's my wife or my staff or the bands, the manager, the agent, whoever it is, just lots of communication. And the secret is it's got to be fun. None of this works. If it's a, if it's a misery fest and if it's just all like, Oh God, I don't know why we're, if it's like that, then just go do something. You know, it's,
Speaker 1yeah, 100% man, man, you were dropping a lot of really great advice and insight here for, uh, for bands because it is really difficult out there right now. I mean, it was difficult enough, um, before I don't think, you know, we can blame COVID and, and economic climate, you know, exclusively for the, the, the fucking shit show that we find ourselves in right now. It was bad before, you know? So yeah, this, this is really great that you're really given such great, um, experienced, uh, advice for people who are out there, you know, in, in quite difficult terrain right now.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, I really feel that responsibility. a lot and i mean even if i do meet a lot of bands and i say look i can't help you i'm not gonna be able to help you with with the label or even the management side but i'm happy to talk to you about it because it sort of feels like i need to pay this stuff back you know i need to pay it forward or whatever the phrase is um because i can't i can't imagine what it could be like to be 16 17 year old in a band right now faced with all these obstacles because we didn't have any of these obstacles maybe it was stupidity or naivety just thinking well we just give one tape to john peel and and one tape to 4ad and we'll get a john peel session and we'll get signed because that's what happened that's what we did and that's what happened right so you sort of think well this is easy can you that that would never happen today you know you could never just wait outside broadcasting house and and give a tape to steve and mac what would you give him they don't exist anymore there aren't tapes do you know what i mean what are you going to give him a link yeah yeah i've wasted outside here's my link you know it's a very different world you know um so i do feel sort of a responsibility to try and help as best i can that's awesome man yeah but i don't know whether i'm doing it but it certainly gets me through the day
Speaker 1oh dude no totally already you've dropped so many truth bombs on this that are just really useful i mean you know i've i've been through the struggle myself you know i've sent you a lot of stuff i've sent you a lot of you know of sending cds out you know right at the tail end of that era when it when it was becoming you know pointless and obsolete so ever since then you know the model you know for me and my friends is just to send out you know a thousand soundcloud links in emails and things like that you know develop your own one sheets and fucking web pages and it's and we know that it just gets lost in the black hole of the internet you know we know that no one has got enough time in the day to go through all that stuff it's just not possible but then you know from our side of the fence what else can we do you know to try and get our music under people's earlobes you know so um yeah it's very difficult man so i do really appreciate it i know that the listeners will really appreciate as well you being so honest and forthcoming with such great advice yeah there are
Speaker 2some great people in my business you know who all do feel similarly to me you know some great independent labels out there who want to help it's just the time that you have to be able to do it because i don't know how many how many um emails i get every day with with links on i mean let's look at how many i mean that that's 11 844 unread emails that's actually the best it's ever been no that's no that's amazing it's been 40 50 000 before i had a bit of a clean out over christmas but that that shows you how many the volume of emails that i get not all of them are uh but you know i do get a shed load and i always try and listen to everyone and of course now i've found that there's a lot of um bedroom artists or artists from all over the world sending me like instrumental links instrumental music um i'm just saying you know can i put this out on the label and it's it's hard you know because i feel like i love listening to it but i've learned over the years that to be an instrumental artist just a bedroom artist making instrumental music that it's just i mean there's tiktok and there's instagram i guess but it's very hard to put stuff out on cd and vinyl and sign a band that's that's just making nice instrumental music and i i always struggle to try and find a way of saying i like what you're doing but i don't know what the fuck i don't want i wouldn't know what to do with it right yeah you know i've got explosions i've got explosions in the sky i've got a dirty three i've worked with some of the greatest instrumental bands out there those two are the best that you'll ever see so i don't really need any more because i've got them but when it's some guy not in a band not with other musicians that's just making nice polite instrumental music that's very lovely kind of thing you'd probably hear in the background on a on an ad or something i have to sort of say look i have to be brutally honest this isn't for me but have you not thought about going down the kind of tv sync film world and it is super competitive but how about some of these companies who might be able to help because it it's just too it's just not good enough to go back and go i don't like it sorry it's not for me that's not enough anymore because that's too if you're that person receiving that email that's that's just a real hard thing to read isn't it yeah you put all this effort into this thing even if it may not have any life as a sort of uh a release on a label that doesn't mean to say that your talent's be put to use elsewhere so i'm always trying to kind of think maybe i can sort of push them to the to this area that might someone might get it in that world i mean of course sometimes you feel like you're just sort of paying lip service to it a bit but it's i just think it's better than not answering at all which i know a lot of people do not answer these emails they don't reply to artists i don't like to do that i won't i will always reply but i don't reply if the email is not to me and i get quite a few times i don't reply to them i don't reply to them i don't reply to them those you know when you get the email you can even see all the other people that are on it haven't quite got haven't quite got it right in terms of you really i get you need to write a personal email to the person you're writing to or else you're you're not writing to me are you you're just writing to all of the labels in the world and i'm not all the labels in the world i'm just a little guy trying to make my way you know so you make an effort to find me and address me as simon then i will make an effort and try and listen to music and come up with something constructive um that's the way i do it if you if i can sense that the email is not actually to me really i'm like well fuck you
Speaker 1that's amazing that you do that though play too man i mean i've sent my fair share of emails in the past probably tens of thousands into 20 years that i've been struggling to do stuff um and pretty much all of them i would i would venture to say have gone unread let alone responded to and let alone responded to with any kind of constructive feedback so that's amazing effort that you do that man i totally know what you mean as well because at conic records i get the exact same thing i get like an email like hi conic records oh hi conic and then it's just like check out my band and you look at the cc and it's got like every other fucking record label on the planet you know just like info at info at you know like no fucking due diligence or research or fucks given you know just like the laziest outreach ever you know i know i do
Speaker 2i do get a couple where they've obviously been doing a lot of stuff and they've gone through and sort of chosen beggars sub pop domino blah blah and they've copied and pasted of course of course you're going to copy and paste i don't have a problem with that but when they've forgotten to take out dear sub pop to the email to belly union that i do always i do always kind of make a joke about it i i reply to those because i know it's an easy mistake to make we're not easy it's a difficult mistake to make as a man you haven't really read it probably but i do still reply to those but i always like to point it out like that's not me but never mind let's get to the point yeah it's difficult it's very difficult i actually i started a new little imprint in the last year um called belly unions private pressing um partly as a way of trying to combat this this vinyl production nonsense um and also saying to bands i don't need to sign you for 15 years on this i don't need to give you an advance and you don't need one it's pointless taking an advance just means you owe money to your record label but you've got this finished record i love it i'd like to help get it out there in the world but i'm not going to press a thousand copies i'm going to press like 150 200 records and i'll make it totally unique you're only going to be able to buy it from my web from the belly union website can't buy it in the shops um and i started doing a few of these and they've gone really really really well um i let the artists do all the digital i'll help them put it up there but they keep all the money keep all the band cam so really all i'm doing is pressing up a couple of hundred vinyls and when i get when i've sold them all they can have the rights back so it's it's not really costing me much it's you know it's probably a grant or something to do each each pressing and i can just help get them introduced into the world because of the label's profile you know um so i've done it with a couple of brighton artists who their records will be coming out next month um just because i think they're amazing i want to help them out and then i know they probably would struggle like you say to get signed to other labels because that whole thing is just a mess trying to get signed by anyone anymore is very very hard um so yeah that's another way i'm trying to help uh we'll just have to see how it goes
Speaker 1that's a great idea man yeah i mean that's something i will definitely look into myself because i mean to to put that outlay as a small independent artist on top of all of the other things you've mentioned like touring costs and recording and all of the shit that goes with it you know um to have that outlay for merch or you know bulk pressing of vinyl or cds is quite a hit you know on top of everything else so i think that deal there that you described we know that you keep the digital out of it you just deal with the vinyl and it helps them get that physical product out there i think that's a great idea i'll look into that myself
Speaker 2yeah i like it and i only use this one pressing plant that's an eco-friendly pressing plant i mean there's no way making vinyl will ever be particularly eco-friendly you know just just because but uh this one is is based in europe it's called deep grooves and um i've used them exclusively on all the on all the billion in private pressing i've done so far which is about five so you know i'm trying to kind of help look at how the world is we there is way too much vinyl out there that's that's just gonna end up as fucking landfill you know what i mean there's the major label the major labels press up way too much stuff that really doesn't need to be pressed up so i'm concerned about it on one level but at the same time i'm 60 i'm not 20 i can't i can't heal the world anymore you know what i mean i can only do my little bit well you're
Speaker 1certainly doing that man and doing what you're doing now on these interviews and stuff that you do and obviously we want to talk about the book in just a second as well you know that in itself is is doing more than your little bit as well and everything that you've done you know jesus christ and whatever your amazing career with the music you've given us and the bands you've introduced us to you know you've done more than your bit so you're doing okay your karma balance is looking pretty healthy yes that's that's
Speaker 2true well that's true yes i think i i've done okay yeah i'm like very happy with how things have gone and you know could always be better and stuff but yeah no i feel a good balance personally as well like moving down to brighton from london um was it was a great move for me i i was starting to kind of not enjoy being in the city that i grew up in and uh being that down here in brighton by the sea it's just like it's changed everything oh
Speaker 1yeah it's a great music scene in brighton as well it has been
Speaker 2for a while amazing amazing and what i love about the bright music scene is how generous everyone is all the bands love each other and that that's that's not something i ever remember growing up in london uh you know that in the punk scene i saw incredible bands every night of my teenage years and through my 20s but i don't remember any of them being particularly friendly i mean obviously the clash and the pistols and the the banshees i suppose they all kind of tolerated each other but maybe the cure and the banshees were friends maybe but yeah these little scenes like in brighton bands truly love each other they live with each other they share equipment they share bills it's very generous and i do like that a lot yeah i 100%
Speaker 1agree with that man i had an artist i was working with for many years on conic records um from brighton and everything she did it felt like there was a real communal sense to it like they all played on each other's tracks they were all in side projects together and stuff like that they all did tours together and you know pop-up shows together and help each other out and live with each other and all the things you describe it it feels like there's a real an actual proper scene developing down there it does
Speaker 2and i mean you get a lot of people go oh it's too sceny everyone knows each other and i'm like yeah and what's your point you know isn't that what we're isn't that what we need right now we need community there's just been such a lack of it and you know the country is just a fucking disaster area in terms of how it's run um it's you know the gap between the haves and the have-nots is is is so large that any community where people are just coming together and doing something because they love it and they're supporting each other i think that's a great thing i don't i don't think sceny is a bad thing i think it's a great thing 100 yeah we need
Speaker 1more of it and that harks back to what you were saying about keeping it local early on as well i think that if we can invigorate our local scenes again where we're not in competition with each other but we're all part of the same healthy community and looking out for each other and helping each other out you know i mean musically and otherwise you know i mean as you said the state society is fucked on all fronts at the moment you know i mean 12 years of tory rule will do that to you
Speaker 2well yeah because if you look back so if you look back to the kind of early 80s when the independent label scene sort of exploded it was because of the local scenes you know kitchenware in newcastle postcard in scotland you know factory in manchester 480 in london you know all these like there's millions of others uh uh crover in liverpool and you know any town had its own label scene that is and its own label why well because so many of the people that are in the city are somebody in the town was like we've got so many brilliant bands let's start a label and put some of them out you know and hopefully there'll be more of that coming up with with this burgeoning local scene that would that we're seeing happening right now hopefully there'll be more little indie labels trying to help out their favorite bands in their favorite in their in their hometown
Speaker 1100 yeah very inspiring very inspiring outlook that is man in in times that are very difficult i think you know that that's that's a great solution which is healthy on many fronts and much more achieved but unattainable for bands you know for the reasons that we've mentioned um i know that i promised i would only keep you for an hour and we are getting dangerously close to that point now there's a few more things i wanted to ask you so i'm just going to squeeze one in which i didn't mention earlier uh you mentioned satan earlier and we we were talking about the major labels but we haven't yet mentioned spotify and streaming you know what are your thoughts on that good or bad
Speaker 2well a bit of a mixture i guess um yeah you know yeah spotify i'm not a fan of okay i'll be honest don't i mean i do have an account but i don't use it um it's we have it in the house because if you've got friends around and you need you want to put a playlist on i guess it's it's easy i'd rather just go and get a bunch of records and put them on the record player but for ease simplicity i get it streaming ain't going away right spotify is going to be there as a model for a business i think it's dreadful right i think it's app is appalling um and i i'm just not a fan but then i'm not the core audience probably you know i'm somebody that's been buying records all my life i still buy as many records today as i did back in the day i'm a complete vinyl junkie so spotify is not i'm not its target human um so i'm person to talk about it but i think they paid the pay is terrible even if they just put it up a bit it's still going to be terrible yeah um but and there has to be a but in here because i do see the positives of it as well is that when you have um i suppose the tiktok stroke spotify thing at the moment is actually very interesting because if you know you never listen to a whole song on tiktok you just hear a bit what people what's happening is that people are hearing a bit of a beautiful song on tiktok coming out of tiktok into spotify typing in the name of that band finding that song and then streaming the fuck out of it and then hopefully listening to more and more songs about that from that band and getting into their catalog and then i suppose because they're new to spotify you know 15 year old kids or whatever are starting to discover other things we can argue with them that exist to drive that you know to take you from this band that you didn't want to listen to this next band that you didn't know anything about that you are now listening to whether that's right or wrong i don't really want to get into that because it's everywhere we go right yeah being tough being fed something else whether you're on facebook being fed an ad because your alexa overheard you talking about carpets you're suddenly seeing a thousand carpets you've done that you've seen it i know it happens they'll tell you it doesn't it does whether you're on twitter and the promoted ads you get are because you've been looking at a certain type of thing it's everywhere we go so why should we be that disappointed that spotify is feeding us a track they think we might like it it's it's nothing well i don't know about right or wrong i don't think it's right but it is the way of the world right now so we better just fucking get used to it right so on the one side i'm like totally antsy it and i'm starting to kind of think about deleting all my stuff i'm like i'm going to delete it i'm going to delete it i'm going to delete my social accounts but i don't really want to do that right now because i'm about to put out a book and my publisher will be annoyed with me so i'm gonna i'm gonna wait until all the books out and then i'll probably just come off right um spotify yes i i sure spotify look beach house is a perfect example where spotify works they had a viral hit with uh space song about a year ago all all beach house songs stream well right they all stream about 30 million streams an average which is very healthy um it's it's not it's not ed sheeran numbers but it's in my world it's super healthy most bands i know would love to stream 30 million per track something happened about a year ago where uh somebody a girl on i think it was a girl on tiktok had a breakup with a partner and posted this kind of sad video with one of beach house's songs as the soundtrack to the song and i'm like oh my god i'm going to do it i'm going to do it i'm going to do it this sad video it just went out went viral like uh over the course of the next few months and everyone that had a breakup with anybody was using this piece of music and it sort of went from kind of 30 million to kind of 100 million in about two weeks and then after a couple of months it was at 200 million then it was 300 million then it was 400 million i haven't actually looked for a few weeks let me have a look right now i think it's around about 600 oh my god 100 million my god right now and this is just because of tiktok right so am i going to argue against against my own band benefiting enormously uh audience wise demographic wise and financially you know the finances of going from 30 million which i'm sure i don't know what they are but i'm sure they were pretty healthy to 650 million it was 550 million a couple weeks ago so it's still moving even a year or so after so you can't argue with how this is revolutionizing artists income and ability to make make money out of streaming you can't argue with it so on the one hand i'm like i can't stand it it's awful it's horrible i don't like the app i don't like the way it works on the other hand i'm like yeah i love it because my fans are making some money out of it yeah yeah yeah or you know what so it's um a little bit sort of torn between the two things at the moment because obviously i i see that it's a little bit of a it's a little bit and i want them to continue making great money um and and having all that exposure it's it's a wonderful thing yeah that's about all i've got to say
Speaker 1well i think all of these things are amazing if you get that lucky break like you just mentioned when it happens it's fucking beautiful because then you get the i mean they could never reach that audience by being on the radio or getting ads in a magazine you know to have access to that global audience that i've now discovered
Speaker 2their track no one spent any money and no one no yeah nobody spent any money on that there was no campaign yeah it just happened and you've got to say that that is one of the most beautiful things to happen yeah it's just purely organic and all the great successes the bell unions had over the years have all been that way right the fleet foxes phenomenon was all organic yes we did spend a load of money at the end on tv advertising that kicked it on again to get up to the kind of million level but that was when we were up three hundred thousand cd sales we then spent a bit of money to kind of get through to a different kind of audience yes that's fair enough but tiktok is completely organic and you have to say that is a very beautiful thing well
Speaker 1i suppose when it comes down to what you said earlier about making your own luck i mean when you're just lost in the noise in the pool of everyone else putting stuff out there and you're getting nowhere and you're getting two likes on your posts and stuff like that then this stuff feels very frustrating and the algorithm is working against you as you mentioned as well a when you do get that lucky spark for whatever reason that happens and it just fucking takes off then these platforms are amazing and they can bring so much benefit to artists you know so i suppose there's probably an argument there for being able to make your own luck if you can embrace it and just accept the fact this stuff is here to stay and do what you can to be creative and utilize these things then you're setting yourself up to potentially maybe have that lucky spark
Speaker 2yeah exactly i say that to all the bands i say look that's that's a perfect example and i mean the beach house story and it is a beautiful one because you know i mean it's a beautiful story and it's a beautiful story and it's a beautiful story and we had a two album deal with beach house at the beginning and the first two records like the first album i did okay second album did sort of slightly better but nothing nothing crazy and you know at one point when our deal was over i was like god i really love this band i'm sure they're going to make it but you know i can imagine why they might look at us and go why why isn't it happening because they were always they were amazing from the start they weren't just didn't just keep getting better they were amazing from the beginning so it was um you know you have to go to the band at that point and say i think you're amazing you're absolutely one of my favorite bands i've ever signed i want to carry on working as long as possible sorry it hasn't worked yet but it's not for want of trying you know and you have to just be out there put it out there and i think we did that with beach house and said look it will happen it's just you know we're just hopefully a few minutes away from it happening and then they agreed to stay with us they could easily have gone to another label easily i know for ade we're looking at signing beach house or considering signing them if they had left but they they trusted us they stuck with us the next album took off teen dream became massive and that's where it all started so you just have to have a bit of faith not just me and them but them in me and then you just have to say well they make fantastic music so those numbers shouldn't be that surprising and that's how i'm trying to look at it because everybody should should beach house they're one of the most incredible bands out there and the fact that their audience have now gone from sort of 35 to 55 year olds it's now sort of 15 to 60 year olds it's it's crazy it's so beautiful to see going to a gig now and it's not just being loads of old people couples and stuff it's it's you know thousands of girls just screaming it's just so wonderful so i have to sort of take my hat off to to the streaming services in one sense because they've allowed this to happen they've allowed one of my bands to have this it's enabled one of my bands to have this great success so from that point of view i'm absolutely thrilled but as a punter as a as a participant in it it's not really my thing but i don't think anyone would care because i'm not the guy i'm not the guy they're aiming
Speaker 1for amen you've given us so much great advice and so much insight and wisdom from your decades in the game so we thank you for that um before we wrap up i want to talk about your book as are we going to get a lot of this stuff in the book you know what have you finished it what's the what's going on with the book oh well probably
Speaker 2not i mean no i haven't written my book isn't a sort of you know um how to survive in the music business book it's not that because as you say i mean i do i do try and do this every day in my life is trying to help people my book is really more about me sort of taking a step back and just looking at what i've done right i mean i wouldn't have done it i think musicians books are generally quite dull and i wouldn't have done it if i didn't have done it if i didn't have done it if i didn't i was worried that i didn't want to write a dull book so i only did it because i'd spoken to warren ellis from the bad seeds who's like a friend of mine what was at 33 for many many years and he'd just done this book nina simone's gum and i was writing already bits for magazines and stuff and he'd also said similarly he'd never had the idea to write a book uh but something happened this event with uh with nina simone's gum i don't know if you know the story it's too long it's too long to go into but he basically he him and nick went to see nina simone at meltdown and he sort of became obsessed with this he took she'd taken the chewing gum out of her mouth just before she started playing she stuck it underneath the piano and then she played the set she played the set and then and the set finished but warren was still thinking about this piece of chewing gum and as the as the crew were clearing the stage he kind of nipped down the front jumped up the stage and went under the piano and took the chewing gum off and put it in his pocket and left the venue and then it just became this thing between him and nick cave like about this gum and it was just like this bonding moment this sort of symbol almost of sort of significance uh significant moments in your life so that was his sort of starting point for the for the book and when i talked to him about it like i met up with him right where he lives where we both live and uh i found it such a fascinating story and it did inspire me to to stop worrying about the fact that my book i'm a musician writing a book just write the book yeah so i did and i found an agent i found a publisher and i wrote the book that's awesome and i had a great time doing it looking back upon upon all these things that i've done um and we shall see it's it's it's coming out hopefully later this year or early next year it's book publishing is apparently is is in equal uh dire straits in terms of production as as as as the as the vinyl industry so i i hear it's going to take a long time to get it made but i don't care now i've done it that's amazing but how long
Speaker 1did it take
Speaker 2to write that um well so i i think about october last year i had done about 18 000 words and i thought i'd finish and i kind of like i spoke to the agent and i said roughly what is a hundred hundred and ten thousand words and i was like oh okay shit so i went away on holiday with my when i went on holiday with my wife um in october for a week and i just basically got up at eight o'clock every morning i just started writing and pretty much wrote all day and i've got into this rhythm um and then i came back home and i just did exactly the same thing i didn't have a day off i would get up at eight go to go to a cafe get my headphones on start typing get it all out there about two o'clock in the afternoon i'd stop and um go back home and get on with other stuff the belly in your stuff and then i just did it every day for like i did like four or five months and i had it done that's amazing yeah
Speaker 1that's amazing yeah i had a very similar experience with my first book um which was an autobiography i wrote the whole thing in a minute just over two months because i just got up every day and at the time i had nothing else going on so i have three days you know to just you know to spend on the book and i just got up every day and i just did about half a chapter every day and i just slammed it for two months and then obviously you got the editing process that goes on for a few months after that you know yeah yeah but yeah i i totally relate to that i found doing it autobiographical type of book a little bit easier in the sense that you've you know where it begins and where it ends you're kind of just filling in the middle you know yeah so yeah i can't imagine what it must be like to have to invent plots and characters and you know that's a whole different
Speaker 2world yeah a whole different game No, I really quite enjoyed it. I sort of got into the rhythm. you know um enjoyed getting up and and couldn't wait to sort of sit down and get on with the next bit i mean obviously fitting it all in fitting it all in i've got way too much i i ended up writing like 125 000 so i'm pretty sure the edit the editor will want to chop out lots of it which is fine by me because i don't know the first thing about it so i'm just like here it is you do what you want with it um but i'm very happy with what i wrote and i i i printed it out for my wife to read and she kind of sailed through it in a couple of nights and she i know she would tell me what she thought she does always tell me what she thinks and she loved it so that was good enough
Speaker 1oh exciting stuff man so have you got a title yet is it a working title or you're not allowed to say
Speaker 2yeah yeah the title i had before i had the book um i won't say because it's um if we go down the road of why is it called that okay we'll be here for another three
Speaker 1hours interesting all right i'm intrigued man so we're looking then i guess at a publishing you said of later this year more than likely early to mid next year is that the case because i mean book publishing as i know takes absolutely forever
Speaker 2yeah it's with nine eight publishing who uh did the mickey bereni book right and um obviously mickey is a great mate of mine and i actually did a q a with her at brighton and resident when her book came out and it's a phenomenal book mickey bereni's book you have to read it okay uh it's it's definitely one of the best music books i've read in my life i've read a lot of books i've ever read and it's not really a music book i mean half of it is not it's just so brilliantly written it's very truthful it's super authentic what's it called um it's um how music saved me from success oh i think
Speaker 1i've seen that book yes right i know the book right it was like
Speaker 2best best-selling music book of the year it was like number one in sunday time number one in rough trade it's the biggest selling book in fact one of the biggest selling products that resident has ever had in their shop in brighton wow i think they shipped 7 000 so they sold 7 000 in the first week jesus resident i think that was 70 of all the whole of the uk's sales in that one shop jesus yeah phenomenal everything she gets is deserved because it's uh it's a phenomenally good book brilliantly written um and and also just very very interesting
Speaker 1i'm gonna check it out
Speaker 2yeah so i'm lucky and i'm lucky i'm lucky enough to be with the same publisher and um i'm my book's nowhere near as good as hers but i'm sure uh having a publisher like them and a publicist like like like she had will will help me enormously because i think that's part of the game is making sure you get you know get it to the right people well i think there's
Speaker 1going to be a lot of people interested in in your life story because you've got a fascinating life you've led you know i mean you've done so many different things you've seen so many different changes in the times over the years that you've been doing it so yeah i'm personally excited for the book to come out and i'm looking forward to it and i'm looking forward to it and i'm looking forward to it i wish it would hurry the fuck up and happen um hopefully you know when we get nearer the time if you if you grace our humble podcast again and come back on we could talk exclusively about the book if you're up for
Speaker 2it that would be nice james thank you all
Speaker 1right it's a deal you heard it here first folks we're going to book that in right now it's confirmed simon thank you so much for doing this man i really do appreciate you giving me your time i know how busy you are and thanks for all of the great wisdom and knowledge you've given so freely and advice that you've given so freely to the listeners uh who i know are going to benefit from that experience and that wisdom so so much and thank you for all of the great brilliant music you've given us as well over all these decades not just in your own band the cocktail twins but also through the brilliant belly union records you you've you're going to be leaving a lot a lot of goodness behind man in your trail so thank you so much and hopefully we will speak to you again soon best wishes with everything coming up and thanks again for coming on
Speaker 2thank you james take
Speaker 1care simon raymond ladies and gentlemen from the awesome iconic cocktail twins and the legendary record label bella union records let's hear it for him what a cool dude man i had no idea the conversation was going to go that way i knew we were going to get into his book and everything like that but he was just he just wanted to he just wanted to chuck us all that free information and insight and wisdom which was like there's some really really good food for thought in there i found personally and i agree with everything he said i mean you know the guy has been around the block man he's been here through this whole transition he's been in the game himself as an artist as well so he really knows what he's talking about so you know i think it's a really good thing to do and i if you're in a in a an emerging band or or a semi-established band or an independent band i think you should definitely listen to a lot of what simon is saying in this interview and many others because he really does dish out this this this wisdom quite freely and that's that's that's a definite gift that we should um respect and listen to because he does know what he's talking about and it's great when you get somebody in the music business who does have the insight and the experience and the wisdom that simon has when they are so open and honest about it i love that you know so what a great guy what a great guy and i think it's a really good thing to do and i think it's a great conversation that was and i personally can't wait to read his book i was going to say the name of it but i still don't know what it was he hasn't told me so um we'll just have to keep an eye on his socials for the updates on that you can follow him on instagram and twitter at mr simon raymond that's raymond with an e on the end and the awesome bella union records can be found at bellaunion.com where you can check out more about the label and all of their awesome awesome artists too many to mention but i'm talking about the likes of beach house john grant ezra firman the flaming lips tim burchis and i think it's a really good thing to do and i think it's a really good and so many more so go and check those guys out i hope you enjoyed the conversation thanks again for listening in check us out on next week's episode with another awesome guest you're not going to believe this one this one is a good one they're all goodness what am i saying but i gotta try and keep you hyped somehow but how do you keep just you know how do you keep raising the temperature higher and higher when we're already on full fucking temperature baby it's already red hot on this fucking thing so check us out next week for what's going to be and yeah just another fucking awesome guest laying down some awesome information for you lucky motherfuckers and to get for free so between now and then what have you got to do i've said it enough goddamn times what have you got to do you've got to subscribe to the podcast you've got to click follow you've got to click like you've got to click share you've got to leave a comment you've got to leave a star rating review give me a five star give me a one star i don't give a shit just give me something man and the most important thing you can do is spread the word word of mouth is so powerful please tell your friends tell your colleagues tell your enemies tell anyone that listen to check out the james kennedy podcast because we have got some awesome guests coming up with some awesome insights some awesome stories and some awesome knowledge that we can all learn from whether it's in music politics personal issues food and health and anything we've got it all coming on this thing man so uh so spread the word and make sure you are subscribed so you don't miss any of this goodness thanks to all of you for your amazing support and for coming back week after week i love you loads have a great week and i'll see you next time
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