#437 – Jordan Jonas: Survival, Hunting, Siberia, God, and Winning Alone Season 6

The following is a conversation with Jordan Jonas, winner of a lone season 6, a show where the task is to survive a lone in the Arctic wilderness longer than anyone else. He is widely considered to be one of if not the greatest competitors on that show. He has a fascinating life story that took him from a farm in Idaho and hoboing on trains across America to traveling with thematic tribes in Siberia. All that helped make him into a world-class explorer, survivor, hunter, wilderness guide, and, most importantly, a great human being with a big heart and a big smile. This was a truly fun and fascinating conversation. Let me also mention that at the end after the episode, I'll start answering some questions and we'll try to articulate my thinking on some top of mind topics. So if that's of interest to you, keep listening after the episode is over. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description as the best way to support this podcast. 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There's something about the ease and scale and the efficiency of Shopify that always makes me think about the machinery of capitalism and also because I've been beginning to read the history of human civilization and I suddenly feel humbled by the scale of it all and how capitalism is an idea, the modern version of it, is a relatively recent one, just a handful of centuries, just with the industrial revolution and we humans have been battling with this idea. Whether the means of production should be owned by the state or by the individual. And now everybody's talking like that such an obvious thing, but it isn't. Every genius idea is obvious in retrospect and the entire story of humans on earth is a long chain of experiments, successful and failed ones and from each we'll learn and we always rise. That's the fascinating thing about us humans. We always survive. We'll always find a way. That's actually one of the central kernels behind my optimism about the future of humanity. 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It's the craziest thing to start a business is the craziest idea because most likely going to fail. It really is the stupidest possible thing except it is not, except that dream is the very engine that enables progress. So I'm a big fan of startups of small businesses and grateful to humans take the risk and I'm grateful to humans find a way. Anyway, Neswee is a good tool to manage businesses. Over 37,000 companies have upgraded to Neswee by Oracle. Take advantage of Neswee's flexible financing plan at Neswee.com/lex, that's Neswee.com/lex. This episode is also brought to you by Element, an electrolyte drink that I love and depend on, especially when I'm taking long-distance runs in Austin Heat. Often 95, 100 degree Fahrenheit, and I love it, 10, 12, 15 miles, let's go. But yes, you have to consume a large amount of electrolytes before and after to make sure I'm feeling good. One of these days I should probably run a marathon, but I don't run for time, I don't run to a destination, I don't run because I have to or even I don't really run for exercise sake. I run so I can think clearly and contend with the heavier of my thoughts because when I'm out there, just by myself, whether no sound or brown noise in my ears, I get to really think. There's something about sort of physical challenges, especially the higher pace where I start getting uncomfortable and the uncomfortable thoughts rise up and I get to think and I get to face those thoughts and either meditate them away or try to figure out what is the kernel of the thing that disturbs me about those thoughts? What is it so uncomfortable? What is the thing that causes anxiety? This could be everything from intellectual philosophical type thoughts, technical design, engineering challenges or just personal life stuff, all of it. So I love running for that reason. 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Go to a sleep dot com slash Lex and use code Lex to get $350 off the pod for ultra. This is the Lex River and podcast to support it. Please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends, here's Jordan Jonas. You won alone season six and I think are still considered to be one of if not the most successful survivor on that show. So let's go back. Let's look at the big picture. Can you tell me about the show alone? How does it work? Yeah, it's a show where they take 10 individuals and each person gets 10 items off of the list. Basic items would be an ax, a saw, a frying pan, some pretty basic stuff and then they send them all, drop them off all in the woods with a few cameras and so the people are actually alone. There's not a crew or anything. And then you basically live there as long as you can, you know, and so the person that lasts the longest, you know, once the second place person taps out, they come and get you in that and that individual wins. So it's a it's a pretty legit challenge, you know, they they drop you off. Helicopter flies out and you're not going to get in your next meal until you make it happen. So you have to figure out the shelter, you have to figure out the source of food and then it gets colder and colder because I guess they drop you out in a moment where it's going into the winter. Yeah, they typically do it in temperate colder climates, things like that and they start in in a September October. So time's ticking when they drop you off and yeah, the pressure's on. You got it's you know, you get overwhelmed with all the things you have to do right away. Like, oh man, I'm not going to eat again until I actually shoot or catch something. Got to build a shelter. It's pretty overwhelming. Figure your whole location out, but it's interesting because once you're there a little while, you kind of get into a, well, at least for me, it did. There was like a week or maybe not a week, but that I was kind of a little more annoyed with things. You know, it's like, oh my sight sucks. And then and then you kind of accept it. Like, you know what, it is what it is. No, no amount of complaining is going to do anybody any good. So I'm just going to make it happen. And so then or you know, do my best to and then I felt like I got in a zone and I felt like I was right back in kind of Siberia or in that headspace and I found to actually really enjoyed it. I had been a little bit out of I guess you call it the game because I had had a child and and so when we had our daughter, we came back to the States and then a bunch of things happened and I just ended up and we didn't end up going back to Russia. So it'd been a couple of years that I was just, you know, we were raising the little girl and boy then and then you've gotten a little soft. So I was like, did I got a little soft? But then it was fun. How like after just some days there, I was like, oh man, I feel like I'm at home now. And then it was like you're kind of in that flow state. And it was actually there's a few moments like when you left the ladder up or with the moose that you kind of screwed up a little bit. Oh yeah. How do you go from that moment of like frustration to the moment of acceptance? I mean, the more you put yourself in life and positions that are kind of outside your comfort zone or push your abilities, the more often you're going to screw up and then the more opportunity you have to learn from that. And then to be honest, it's kind of funny, but you almost get to a position where you don't feel that uncomfortable. It's not unexpected. You know, you kind of expect you're going to mess up here and there. I remember particularly with the the moose, the first moose I saw, I had a great shot at it, but I had a hard time judging distance because it was in a mud flat, which means it's hard to it's hard to tell yardage, you know, because you usually typically going by trees or markers be like, oh, I'm probably 30 yards away. This was a giant moose and he was 40 something yards away. And I estimated that he was 30 something yards away. So I was way off and shot and drop between his legs. And then I realized I had not grabbed my quiver. So I only had one shot and I just watched him turn around and walk off. But I was struck initially with like, I actually noticed how unmad I was. I was like, oh, this is actually, I was like, that was awesome. That was like seeing a dinosaur. That was really cool. And then I was like, oh, what an idiot. How to miss. But then I was like, that it made me that much more determined to make it happen again. It was like, okay, nobody's going to make this happen except myself. You can't complain. It wouldn't have done me to go back and moat about it. And so then I was like, I had a thought. I was like, oh, I remember these native guys telling me that you still like build these giant fences and funnel game into certain areas and stuff. And I was like, man, that's a lot of calories. But I have to make that happen again now. So I kind of went out there and tried that. And that was kind of a attempt at something to it could have failed or not worked. But sure enough, it worked. And the opportunity came again. The moose came wondering along and I was able to get it. But being able to take failure as soon you can, the better, accept it. And then learn from it is kind of a muscle you have to exercise a little bit. Well, it's interesting because in this case, the cost of failure is like, you're not going to be able to eat. Yeah. Yeah. That was really interesting. I mean, the most interesting thing about that show was how high the stakes felt because it didn't feel, you know, you didn't tell yourself you're on a show. At least I didn't. I just felt like it was, you're going to starve to death if you don't make this happen. And so the stakes felt so high. And it was an interesting thing to tap into because I mean, so many of our ancestors probably all just dealt with that on a regular basis. But it's something that was all the modern amenities and such and food security that we don't deal with. And it was interesting to tap into what a kind of a peak mental experience that is when you really, really need something to survive. And then it happens that you can't imagine. I mean, that's what our all our dopamine and the receptors are tuned for that experience in particular. So it was yeah, it was pretty awesome. But the pressure felt very on like I always felt the pressure of of providing or starving. And then there's a situation when you left the ladder up, right? You needed fat and what does it over and eat some of the fat? Yeah, well, it was when I got the moose. I was so happy. The most joy I could almost experience max maxed out. But I didn't think I, I didn't think I won at that point. I never thought like, oh, that's my ticket to victory. I thought holy crap, it's going to be me against somebody else that gets a moose now. And we're going to be here six, eight months, who knows how long? And so I can't be here six, eight months and still lose. So I've got to like, I've got to outproduce somebody else with a moose. So I had all that in my head. Not already was, of course, pretty thin. And so I was just like, man, somebody else gets a moose. I'm still going to be behind. And so everything felt like precious to me. And then I had found a plastic jug. And I put a whole bunch of the moose is fat in this plastic jug and set it up on a little shelf. I thought, you know what? If a bear comes, I'll probably hear it and I'll come out and be able to shoot it. So I went to sleep and I woke up next morning and I went out and I was like, where's that jug? And then I was like, wait, it's like, what are all these prints? And then I started looking around. And it took a second to dawn on me because I haven't interacted with Wolverines very often in life. And I was like, oh, those are Wolverine tracks. And he was just so much sneakier than bear would have been. And so it kind of surprised me and he took off with that jug of fat. And so then I went from feeling pretty good about myself to like, now I'm losing again against whoever, you know, this other person is with a moose. So I again, kind of the pressure came back to, oh, no, I got to produce again. It wasn't the end of the world. And I think they may have exaggerated a little bit how little fat I had left. You know, I still had a moose has a lot of fat. But it did make me feel like I was at a disadvantage again. And so yeah, that was pretty intense because those Wolverines, they're bold little animals. And he was basically saying, no, this is my moose. And I had to counter his claims. Well, yeah, they're really, really smart. They figured out a way to get to places really effectively. Wolverines are like fastening in that way. So let's go to that happy moment of the moose. You are the first and one of the only contestants to have ever killed a moose on the show, a big game animal. Well, the bone arrow. So this is day 20. So can you take me through the kill? Yeah. So I missed one. And I just decided I'm not here to starve. I'm here to like try to become sustainable. So I was like, I don't care if it's a risk. I'm going to build that fence. I built it. I would just pick berries and call mousse every, you know, every day. And it was actually a really pleasant just sitting a berry patch and call mousse. But then I also had this whole trap and snare line set out everywhere. So I had all these, I was getting rabbits. But I went and I was actually taking a rabbit out of a snare when I heard a clank because I had set up kind of an alarm system with with string and cans. So it's brilliant idea. Yeah. It's another thing that could have not worked, but it worked. And it came through and I was like, oh, I heard the cans clank and I was like, no way. And so I ran over. I didn't know what it was exactly, but something was coming along the fence. And I ran over and jumped in the bush next to the funnel exit on the fence and sure enough, the big mousse came running up. And you know, your heart gets pound and like crazy. You're just like, no way, no way. I probably could have waited a little longer and had a perfect broadside shot. But I took the shot when he was, he was pretty close, like 24 yards. But he was quartering towards me, which makes it a little harder to make a a perfect kill shot, you know, and so I hit it and it took off running and I just thought, you know, I was super excited. I couldn't believe I actually, you know, I was like, oh my gosh, I got the mousse. I think that was a really good shot. You get all excited. But then it plays back in your head. And particularly when you're first learning to hunt, there's always an animal that gets away, you know, and you like, make a bad decision or not a great shot or something. And it's just it's just part of it. And so, of course, you're like, I'm not going to be satisfied until I see this thing. So I followed the blood trail a little while and I saw some bubbly blood, which meant it was hitting the lungs, which meant it's not going to live. You know, you'll get it. And so as long as you don't mess it up. And so I went back to my shelter and waited an hour. I skinned that rabbit that had caught and then super nervous, the slowest hour ever. And then I followed it along, ended up losing the blood trail. I was like, no, no. And then I was like, well, if there's no blood, I'm just going to follow the path that I would go if I was a mousse, you know, like the least resistance through the woods. So I followed kind of along the shore there and sure enough, I saw him up there. You know, I was so excited, lay down, but but he hadn't died yet. And so he just sat there and he would stand up. And I would just like, no, no, no, no, and he would lay back down and I'd like, yes. And then he would stand up and it was like that for, you know, a couple hours that took him. And then finally at one point, I, you know, and a lot of people have asked, like, why wouldn't you go finish it off? So when an animal like that gets hit, it had no idea what hit it, you know, just all of a sudden it's like, ah, something got it and it ran off and it lays down and it's actually fairly calm. And it doesn't really know what's going on. And if you can leave it in that state, it'll kind of bleed out. And it's, it's peaceful as possible. Um, if you go chase after it, that's when you lose an animal because as soon as it knows it's being hunted, you know, it gets panicked, adrenaline and it can just run and run and run and you'll never find it. So I didn't want it to see me. I knew if I tried to get it with another arrow, there's a chance I could have finished it off, but there's also a not bad chance that it would see me take off or even attack because the moves can be a little dangerous. And so, uh, I just chose to wait it out and at one point it stood up and fell over and I could tell it had died and walked over like you actually touch it and you're just like, whoa. No way. Like that whole burden of weeks of you're going to starve, you're going to starve. And it got rid of that demon. To be honest, it's one of the happiest moments of my life. It's really hard to replicate that joy because it was just so so really or so directly connected to your needs. It's also simple. It was it was a peak experience for sure. And would you worry that it would take many more hours and it would take it into the night? Yeah, I was. I mean, until you actually have your hands on it, I was worried the whole time. It's a pretty nerve-wracking period there between when you get it and when you actually recover the animal, get your hands on it. So it took longer than I wanted, but I finally got it. Can you actually speak to the the kill shot itself just for people who don't hunt? Yeah. So it takes the state calm to it's not forgot too much to like wait, but not wait too long. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, another thing about hunting is that for every animal you get, you probably don't get 9 or 10 that just turned the wrong way when you're drawn back or went way behind a tree or you never had a clean shot or whatever it is. And so every time you can see a moment coming, you know, your heart really starts beating and you have to like breathe through it like an almost, you know, you feel almost feel the nervousness of it. And then and then you just try to stay calm, you know, like whatever you do, just try to stay calm, wait for it to come up, draw back. You've practiced shooting a lot, so you have like kind of a technique like I'm going to go back touch my face, draw my elbow tight, and then the arrow is going to let loose. It's a muscle memory muscle. It's kind of muscle memory. You have a little trigger like draw that elbow tight and then and then it happens and then you just watch the arrow and see where it goes. Now with the animal, you know, you try to do it ethically. That is like make as good of a shot as you can. Make sure it is either hit in the heart or both lungs. And when that happens, it's a pretty quick death, which is in death is a part of life. And but honestly for a wild animal, that's probably the best way to go they could they could have. Now when a animal's kind of walking towards you, if it's walking towards you, but not directly towards you, that's what you call quartering towards you. You can picture it's actually pretty difficult to hit both lungs because the shoulder blade and all that bone is in the way. So you want to, so you have to make a perfect shot to get them both. And to be honest, when I took my shot, I was a couple inches, a few inches right. And so it went through the first lung and then it sunk the arrow all the way into the mousse. But it didn't. It allowed that second lung to stay breathing, which meant the mousse stayed alive longer. What's your relationship with the animal in this situation like that? You said death is a part of that. Yeah, that's an interesting thought because no matter what your relationship to, however you choose to go through life, whether you know, whatever you eat, whatever you do, death is a part of life. You know, like every animal that's out there is living off of a dead even plants, you know, it's all we're all part of this ecosystem. I think it's really easy in a particularly in an urban environment, but anywhere to think that we're separate from the ecosystem. But we are very much a part of it, whether it be, you know, farming requires, you know, all this habitat to be turned into growing soybeans. And when you get the plows and the combines, you know, you're losing all kinds of different animals and all kind of potential habitat. So it's not cost free. And so when you realize that, then you want to produce the food and the things you need in an ethical manner. So for me hunting plays a really major role in that. Like I literally know how many animals a year it takes to feed my family and myself. I actually know the exact number. And it's like, and I know what the cost of that is. And I'm aware of it because I'm out in the woods and I see these like beautiful elk and moose. And I really love the species, love the animals. But there is a fact that one of those individuals, you know, is going to have to feed me. And on, and particularly, like on a loan, it was very heightened that experience. So I shot that one animal. And I was so, so thankful, you know, that I wanted to give that big guy a hug. And like, hey, sorry, it was you, but had to be something. Yeah, there's that picture of you just almost hugging it. Right. And you can also think about the calories, the protein, the fat, all of that that comes from that that will feed you. Right. You're so grateful for it. Like the gratitude is, it's like, you know, definitely there. What about the bow and arrow perspective? Well, when you hunt with a bow, you just get so much more up close to the animals. You know, you can't just get it from 600 yards away. You actually have to sneak in within 30 or so yards. And when you do that, the experiences you have are just, they're way more dragged out. So, you know, your heart's beating longer. You have to control your nerves longer. More often than not, it doesn't go your way. And the thing gets away. And you know, you've been hiking around in the woods for a week. And then your opportunity arises and floats away. But at the same time, that's the only time when you like really have those interactions with the animals where you got this bugling bowl, you know, like tearing at the trees right in front of you and other cow elk and animals running around. You know, you get you get you end up having, really, I don't know, there's intimate experiences with the animal just because, because you're in it. You're kind of in its world. You're playing its game. It has its senses to defend yourself and you have your wit to try to get over those and it really becomes you know it's not easy they're not it becomes kind of that chess game and those praying animals are always tuned in it's you know slightest stick they're looking for wolves or for whatever it is so there's something really pure and fun about it you know I will say there's a aspect that is fun there's no denying it it's like how we're you know people have been hunting forever and and I think it speaks to that part of us somehow but and I think a bow hunting is probably the most pure form of it and that you get those experiences more often than with a rifle cider I don't know I enjoy it a lot and and the way they do regulations and such kind of the best times to hunt are usually allowed for bow because they're trying to you know keep it fair for the animal and such so so the distance the closest distance makes you more in touch with the sort of the the natural way of the predator and pray yeah yeah you're one of the predators where you have to be clever you have to be quiet you have to be calm you have to all of that yeah and the full challenge and the luck involved in the same thing as the predators do exactly how many times do they snap a stick and watch them run off and like darn my stock was failed or you know so yeah you're just you're in that in that ecosystem how'd you learn to shoot the bow yeah I was I didn't grow up hunting I grew up in a area that a lot of people hunted but my dad wasn't really into it and so I never got into it until until I lived in Russia with the natives it was just such a part of everything we did and a part of our life that when I came back I got a bow and I started doing archery in Virginia they had it was a pretty easy way to hunt because the deer were overpopulated and you could get these urban archery permits so you don't go out and you know every couple days you'd have an opportunity to shoot a deer that they needed population control and so there were a lot of them and it gave you a lot opportunities to learn quickly so that's what got me into it and then I found I really enjoyed it do you practice with the with the target also just practice out oh no I would definitely practice with the target a lot you want to again you kind of have an obligation to do your best because you don't want to be flinging arrows into like the leg of an animal and it's a cool way to honestly to provide quality meat for the family you know it's all raised naturally and wild and free until you bring it home into the freezer so if we start back what are the ten items you brought and what's actually the challenge of figuring out which items to bring yeah the challenge is that you don't exactly know what your sights opportunities are going to be so you don't really know should I bring a fishing net am I going to even have a spot to net or not and things like that I brought a axe a saw a leatherman wave ferro rod is like a Nick sparks to start a fire a frying pan a sleeping bag a fishing kit a bow and arrow trapping wire and paracord and so those are my ten items is any any regrets any no major regrets I I took I took the saw kind of I thought it would be more of a calorie saver than I I didn't really need it I in hindsight if I was doing you know season seven instead of six and got to watch I would have taken the the net because I I just planned to make a net but I would have rather just had two nets brought one and left the saw because in the northern woods in particular every tree is you know the size of your arm or leg you can chop it down with an axe and a couple swings yeah yeah you don't really need the saw and so it was handy at times and useful but I think it was my if I had to do nine items I would have been just fine without the saw so two nets would just expand your uh food gathering potential and then in terms of trapping you were okay with just the little you brought the snare wire was good um I ran some you know I put out I used all my snare wire I ran trap line which is just a series of traps through the woods and brush every place you see sign put a snare put a little mark on the tree so I knew where that snare was and just make these paths through the woods and I put out you know I don't know how many 150 200 snares so every day I'd get a rabbit or two out of them and then I had a lot of rabbits but uh once I got the moose I actually took all those snares down because I don't want to catch anything needlessly and oh you come to find out you can't live off of rabbits man cannot live off a rabbit that turns out so you set up a huge number of traps you were also fishing and then always in the lookout for uh moose yeah so like what what's in terms of survival if you were to do it over again over and over and over and over and over like how do you uh maximize your chance of having a food to survive for a long time you have to be you have to be really adaptable because everything's gonna it's always gonna look different in your situation your location I actually had a what I thought was a pretty good plan going into a loan then it just you know the location didn't allow for what I thought it would what was the plan well I thought I would just catch a bunch of fish because I'm on a really good fishing lake I catch a whole bunch of fish and let them rot for a little while and then just drag them all through the woods and to a big pile and then hunt a bear on that big fish pile it's yeah that was the plan and I thought of when I got there for one out of hard time catching fish off the bat you know they didn't come like I was hoping and then for for two it had burned prior so there were no berries and so there were very few berries which meant there weren't grouse there weren't bear they weren't you know they had all gone to other places where the berries were and so what I had grown accustomed to kind of relying on in Siberia wasn't there there you know so in in Russia which was a similar environment it was just grouse and berries and fish and grow some berries and fish and then occasionally you know you get a moose or something but I had to reassess which was part of me being grumpy at the start like that's my sex and then and then once I reassessed and and you know right away I saw that there were moose tracks and such so I just started the plan for that I moved my camp in a into a area that was as removed as I could be from where all the action is where the tracks were so that I wasn't disturbing animal patterns I made sure the wind the predominant wind was blowing out my scent to see and or you know to the water and then really to be honest if you want to actually survive somewhere is different than alone but you do have to be active and it has to you're going to have to you're not going to live you're not going to be sustainable by you know starving it out you have to fit unlock the key that is sustainability and I think there's a lot of areas that still have that potential but you've figured out what is it's usually going to be a combination of fishing you know trapping and then hunting and then once you have some the fishing and trapping it'll get you until you have some success hunting and then that'll buy you three or four months of time to continue and you know to keep hunting again and you just have to roll off of that but every you know depends on where you are what the opportunities are there so okay so that's the process fishing and trapping until you're successful hunting and then the successful hunt buys you some more time right right just go year-round and then you just go year-round like that and that's how people did it forever the pressure was I noticed it you know with that you got that moose and then you're happy for a week or so and then you start to be like it is finite I'm going to have to do this again and you imagine if you had a family that was going to starve if you weren't successful you know this next time and there's just always that pressure you know it made me really like appreciate that what people had to deal with well in terms of being active like so you have to do stuff all day so you get up and you get up and planning like what am I gonna in the midst of the frustration you have to figure out like what's what's the strategy like how do you put up all the traps what is that a decision like you know most people like sit at their desk and have like a calendar are you like figuring out like one thing about wilderness life in general is it's remarkably less scheduled than anything we deal with schedules are fairly unique to the modern context so you'd wake up and you just sort of you have us you know confluence of things you want to do things you need to do things you should do and you just kind of tackle them as you see fit as it flows in you know so and that's actually one of the things that you're people really that I really appreciate about that lifestyle is it really is you kind of in that flow and so I'd wake up and be like maybe I'll go fishing and then I wonder over and fish and then I'd be like I'm gonna go check the trap line add every day if I add five or 10 snares you know you're constantly adding to your productive potential and then but it nothing's really scheduled you're just kind of flying by the seat of your pants but then there's a lot of instinct that's already like you already just like wisdom from all the times you had to do it before you just actually operating a lot on instinct like you said we're to find to play the shelter. I got hard as that calculation where to place the shelter. If you're like dropped off and this is all new to you, of course, all those things are going to be things you have to really think through and plan. When you're thinking about a shelter, you have to think of, oh, here's a nice flat spot, you know, that's a good place. But also is there firewood nearby? And if I'm going to be here for months, is there enough firewood that I'm not going to be walking a half a mile to get a dry piece of wood? Is the water nearby? Is there, is it, is it somewhat open, but also protected from the elements? Because sometimes you get a beautiful spot. It is great on a calm day and then the wind comes like, and so there's all these factors, you know, even down to taking in what game is doing in the area also and how that relates to where your shelter is. You said you have to consider where the action will be and you want to be away from the action, but close enough to it. To see it. Yeah, you want to be, yeah, right. And so ideally, you know, it depends, you're always going to make give and takes. And one thing with shelters and locations, selection of stuff, that's another thing you just have to trust your ability to adapt in the situation because everybody has a particular, you know, he got an idea of a shelter you're going to build. But then you get there and maybe there's a good cliff that you can incorporate, you know, or and then you just become creative. And that's a really fun process too to just allow your creativity to try to flourish in that. What kind of shelters are there? There's all kinds of philosophies and shelters, which is fun. People it's fun to see people try different things. Mine was fairly basic for the simple reason that I lived, you know, winters through winters in Siberia in a teepee. So I knew I didn't need like anything to robust. As long as I had calories, I'd be warm and I wasn't particularly worried about the cold. But you'll see, so I kept my shelter really pretty simple with the idea that I built a simple a frame type shelter. And then most of my energy is going to be focused on getting calories. And then of course, there's always going to be downtime. And in that downtime, I can tweak, modify, improve my shelter. And that'll just be a constant process that by the time you're there a few months, you'll have all the kinks worked out. It'll be really nice little setup. But you don't have to start with that necessarily because you got other needs. You got to focus on that said, you'll see a lot of people on alone that really focus on, you know, building the log cabin because they want to be secure or incorporating the, you know, whatever the earth has around, whether it be rocks or whether it be dig in a hole, you know, and we've seen some really cool shelters. And I, I, I'm not gonna knock it. Everybody has all different strokes for different folks. But I made my particular idea was to keep it fairly simple, improve it with time, but spend most of my energy. You know, the shelter, you really need to think about, it can't be smoky because that'll be miserable. But it is nice to have a fire inside. So you need to have a fire inside that's not going to be dangerous and smoke free. And then also airtight because you're never going to have a warm shelter out there because you don't have seals and things like that. But as long as the air is not moving through it, you can have a warm enough shelter. With a fire, with a fire and dryer socks and stuff. I didn't get the smoke out of the shelter. If you have good clay and mud and rock, you can build yourself a fireplace, which is surprisingly not that hard. You know, you just, oh really? Yeah, it's fun thing to do. It works well. You know, take a little hole, start stacking rocks around it, make sure it's opening and it actually works. You know, so that's not as hard as you might think. For me, where I was, I, I kind of came up with it as I was there with my a frame, you know, I had built an a frame shelter like that before. And so when I built it and then I had put a bunch of tin cans in the ground so that air would get the fire. So it was fed by air, which helps create a draft. But I realized in an a frame, it really doesn't, the smoke doesn't go out very well. Even if you leave a hole at the top, it like collects and billows back down. So then I cut some of my tarp and made this and cut a hole in the in the a frame. And then I made like a hood vent that I could pull down and catch the smoke with. And so while the fire was going, it would just bill out the hood vent. And then when it was done burning and it was just hot coals, I could close it, seal it up and keep the heat in. So it actually worked pretty well. So start with something that kind of works and then keep improving. Yeah, exactly. That was one. I mean, the, the, the log cabin. It feels like that's a thing that takes a huge amount of work for work. The difference between a log cabin and a warm log cabin is like an immense amount of work and all the chinking and all the door sealing and you know, the chimney has to be anyway. So otherwise, it's just going to be the same ambient temperature as outside. So I don't think it loans the proper context for log cabin. I think like a log cabin is great in as a hunting cabin as you know, like if you're going to have something for years, but in a three, six month scenario, I don't know that it's worth the calorie expenditure. And it is a lot of calories, but it's an interesting sort of metaphor of just like get something that works. You see a lot, a lot of this with companies, like successful companies, they, you know, get a prototype, get a system that's working and improve fast in response to the conditions to the climate. Yeah, because it's constantly changing. Yeah. Yeah. And you end up being a lot better if you're able to learn how to respond quickly versus like having a big plan that takes a huge amount of time to accomplish. Right. Enforcing that through the pipeline, whether or not it fits. Can you just speak to like the place you were, the, the Canadian Arctic? It looked cold. Yeah, we were right near the Arctic Circle. I don't know. It was like 60 kilometers south of the Arctic Circle. So it was, it's a really cool area, really remote thousands of little lakes. You know, when you fly over, you're just like, man, it's incredible. There must be so many of those lakes that people haven't been to, you know, it really wasn't the area, really remote. And for the show's purpose, I think it was perfect because it did have enough game and enough different avenues forward that I think it really did reward activity. So I think, but it's a special place. It was a den a, there's a tribe that live there, the den a people, which interestingly enough, here's a side note. When I was in Siberia, I've floated down this river called the Pudgamonayatunguska. And you get to this village called Sula Mai. And there's these ket people, they're called. And there's only 600 of them left. But it isn't a middle of Siberia, not unlike the Pacific coast, but their language is related to the den a people. And so somehow, you know, that connection was there thousands of years ago. Super interesting. But yes, a language travels somehow. Right. And the remnants stayed back there. It's very interesting to think through history. Yeah, within language is contains a history of a people's and it's interesting how that evolves over time. And how wars tell the story. Like language tells the story of conflict and conflict, shape, language, and we get the result of that. Right. So fascinating. And the barriers that language creates is also the thing that leads to wars and misunderstandings and all this. It's a fascinating tension. But it got cold there, right? It got real cold. Yeah, I mean, I think I don't know what I didn't have at the moment. I imagine it probably got to negative 30 at the most. You know, I get might have gotten it would have definitely gotten colder had we stayed longer. But yeah, I to be honest, I was I never felt cold out there. I was pretty I had that one pretty dialed in. And then once you have calories, you can stay warm, you can stay active. You can, you know, you got to dress warm. You know, you don't never let there's a good one if you're in the cold, never let yourself get too cold. Because what happens is you'll stop feeling what's cold and then frostbite and then issues. And then it's really hard to warm back up. So every I it was so annoying, I'd be out going to ice fish or something. And then I would just notice that my feet are cold. And you're just like, Oh, dang it. I just turn around, go back, start a fire, try my boots out, make sure my feet are warm. And then go again, I wouldn't ignore that. You know, also you want to be able to feel the cold. Yeah, you want to make sure you're still feeling things and that you're not tough and through it because you can't really tough through the cold. It'll just get you. So what's your relationship with the cold psychologically, physically? Interesting. Actually, there's a part of it that really makes you feel alive. You know, I imagine you know, sometimes in Austin here you come and go out and it's hot and sweaty. You get that kind of kind of saps you. There's something about that brisk cold that hits your face that you're like, Oh, wakes you up, makes you feel really alive, engaged. You know, it feels like the margins of air are smaller. So you're the alert and engaged a little more. There is something that's a little bit life giving just because you feel on an edge, you're walking, you're on this edge. But you have to be alert because even, you know, some of the natives I lived with, the lady had face issues because she let her head get cold and they're on a snowmobile. Hat was up too high. You know, that little mistake and then it just freezes this part of your forehead and then the nerves go and then you got issues. One just hat wasn't high enough. So you got to kind of got to be dialed in on stuff. Well, there's a psychological element to just, I mean, some pleasant. If I were to think of what kind of unpleasant would I choose, you know, fasting for long periods of time, going without food in a warm environment is way more pleasant than being fat in a cold. Yeah, exactly. Like if you were to choose the opposite. Yeah, okay. - There you go, I wonder if you're born with that or if that's developed maybe your time in Siberia, like you, or do you gravitate towards it? I wonder what that is, 'cause I really don't like survival on the cold. - I think a little bit of it is learned. He like almost learned not to fear it. He learned to kind of appreciate it. And a big part of that is, I mean, to be honest, it's like dressing warm, being good, it's not that, there's no secrets to that. As he just can't beat the cold, so you just need to dress warm the native, all that fur, all that stuff. And then all of a sudden, you have your little refuge, have a nice warm fire gun and your T.P., and then I bet you you could learn to appreciate it. - Yeah, I think some of it is just opening yourself up to the possibility that there's something enjoyable about it. Here, I run in Austin all the time in like a hundred degree heat, and I go out there with a smile on my face, and learn to enjoy it. - Oh yeah. - And so you just like, I look kind of like you doing the cold. I don't think I enjoy the heat, but you just allow yourself to enjoy it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do feel that way. I mean, I don't mind the heat that much, but I think you could get to a place where you appreciated the cold. It's probably just a lack of, it's kind of scary when you're having done it, and you don't know what you're doing, and you go out and you feel cold. It's like not fun, but I bet you could, you'd enjoy it. You'll have to come out sometimes. - 100%. I mean, you're right. It does make you feel alive. That it, like maybe that's the thing that I struggle with is the time passes slower, 'cause it does make you feel alive. You get to feel time. But then the flip side of that is you get to feel every moment, and you get to feel alive in every moment. 'Cause it's both scary when you're an experienced and beautiful when you are experienced. Were there times when you got hungry? - I got shot at Rabbit on day one and I snared a couple of rabbits on day two, and then more and more as the time went. So I actually did pretty well on the food front. The other thing is when you have all those berries around and stuff, you do have an ability to like fill your stomach. And so you don't really notice if you're getting thinner if you're losing weight. So I can say, on a loan, I was not that hungry. I've definitely been really hungry in Russia. There were times when I lost a lot of weight. I mean, I lost a lot more weight in Siberia than I did on a loan. - Oh wow. - Okay, we'll have to talk about it. So you caught a fish, caught a couple. - I think I caught like 13 or so. They didn't show a lot of them. - You caught 13 fish. - 13 did those big fish, too. - Oh, I caught a couple that were small. - This is like a meme at this point. - Yeah, it was a. - You're a perfect example of a person who was thriving. - I was thought, you know, this is in the, in hindsight. Again, when I was out there, I never let myself think you might weigh. And I just was gonna be out there as long as I could and tried to remain pessimistic about it. No, but then, but I remember a thought that I was like, I wonder if they're gonna be able to make this look hard, you know, I would have that thought at one point. And because it went pretty well. And I was, definitely it was, it was hard psychologically because I didn't know when it was gonna end. Like I thought this could go, you know, like I said, six months, it could go eight months a year. And then you start to caught, you know, I had a two and a three year old and you start to weigh in the, is it worth it? If it goes a year and it's not worth it, if it goes eight months and I still lose. So I feel like I had this pressure and then it was psychologically difficult for that reason. Physically, I wasn't too bad. - This is off my court talking about Gordon Ryan competing in Genjitsu. And maybe that's the challenge. He also has to face is to make things look hard. (laughs) 'Cause he's so dominant in the sport that in terms of the drama and the entertainment of the sport and in this case of survival, it has to be difficult. You know, I'll add that for sure though that it's the woods, it's nature. You never know how it's gonna go. You know what I mean? It's like every time you're out there, it's a different scenario. So whenever, how is it, it went well. (laughs) - So you won after 77 days. How long do you think you could have lasted? - When I left, I weighed what I do right now. So I just weighed my normal weight. I had a couple hundred pounds of moose. I had at least a hundred pounds of fish. I had a pile of rabbits, a Wolverine. You know, I had all this stuff. And I know I hadn't gotten cold yet. I just thought, but in my head, I thought, if I get today a hundred and 30 or 40, even if someone else has big game, I had a pretty good idea they might quit because it would be long, cold, dark days and how miserable is that? It's so boring, it's freezing, and so I thought, the only time I thought I could think about winning is when I got today a hundred and 30 or 40. And I definitely had that with what I had. Now, maybe I would have gotten more. I had caught that big 20-something pound pike on the last day I was there. Maybe catch some more of those. And I don't know how many calories I had stored, but I had a lot. And so how long would that last in me, assuming I didn't get anything else? It definitely would have reached my goal of a hundred, 30 or 40 days. And then after that, I thought we were just gonna push into the, you know, then it's just to see how much who has what reserves and will go as far as we can. And that would get me through January into February, and I just thought, man, that's gonna be miserable for people. - And you were like, I can last through. - And I knew I would do it. - What aspect of that is miserable? - The hardest thing for me would have been the boredom because it's hard to stay busy when it's all dark out, when the ice is three, four foot thick, you can't fish. And I just think I think it would have just been really boring. You would have had to have been a real zen master to push through it. But because I had experiences at some degree, I knew I could. And then I think things that might, you know, you start thinking about family and this and that in those situations. And I just knew that those, because I had gone to all these trips to Russia for a year at a time, the time context was a little broader for me than I think for some people. 'Cause I knew I could be gone for a year and come back, catch up with my loved ones, you know, bring what I got back, whether that be psychological, whatever it is, and we'd all enrich each other. And once it's in hindsight, that year would have been like that talking about it. So I had that perspective and it, so I knew I wasn't going to tap for any other reason other than running out of food someday. So that was my stressor, and then. - So you're able to, given the boredom, given the loneliness kind of zoom out and accept the passing of time, just let it pass. - You know, for me, I'm an app fairly, I like to be active. And so I would try to think of creative ways to keep my brain busy, you know, we saw the dumb rabbit first skit, but then I did a whole bunch of elaborate, Normandy re-invasion. - Nice. - Re-enactments and stuff. I was like, there was a, every day I would think I said, I got to think of something to make me laugh, and then do some stupid skit. And then that would be, I would fill a couple of hours of my time, and then I'd spend an hour or two, a couple of hours fishing, and then you spend a few hours, you know, whatever you're doing. - Would you do that without a camera? - Yeah, no, the skits, funny question, that's a good question. I don't know, I actually don't know. That, I will say that was one of the advantages of being on the show versus in Siberia. So no, 'cause I didn't in Siberia just do skits by myself, but I didn't film it. And so it was quite nice to have this camera that made you feel like you weren't quite as alone as if you were just in the woods by yourself. And I think for me, I was able to, it was a pain, it was part of the cause of me missing that mousse. You know, there's issues with it, but I just chose to look at it as like, this is an awesome opportunity to share with people, a part of me that most people don't get to see. You know, 'cause, no, so that was, I just chose to look at it that way. And it wasn't advantage 'cause you could do stuff like that. - I think there's actual power to do this kind of documenting, like talking to a camera or an audio recorder. Like that, that's an actual tool and survival. Is it, I had a little bit of an experience of being out alone in the jungle and just being able to talk to a thing is much less lonely. - It is, it really is. It's a, it can be a powerful tool, just sharing your experience. I had to, I definitely had the thought. So going back to your earlier comment, but I definitely had the thought, if I knew I was the last person on earth, I wouldn't even bother, like I wouldn't do that. Like I would just, probably not, I'd just give up, I'm sure. Because even if I had a bunch of food in this and that, but because I knew, you know you're a part, you're sharing, it gives you a lot of strength to go through and having that camera just makes it that much more vivid 'cause you know you're not just gonna be sharing a big memory, but an actual experience. - I think if you're the last person on earth, you would actually convince yourself. First of all, you don't know for sure. There's always going to be, hope really does that. That's easy, you really don't know, you really, you really, to find. I mean if you're less like an apocalypse happens, I think your whole life will be going by finding the other person. It would be, and there's a, I mean, I'm against I'm saying if you knew you were for some reason, you were the last. I wonder if you would. I wonder if that was the thought I had. If I knew I was the last person, like because out here I was having a good time, having fun, fishing, plenty of food. But like if I knew I was the last person on earth, I don't know that I would even bother. But now if that was for real, would I bother? That's the question. No, no, I think if you knew, if somebody, some, some way you knew for sure, I think your mind will start doubting it, that whoever told you you're the last person, whatever was, was lying, right? The power of hope might be more, more powerful than I accounted for in that situation. Also, you might, if you are indeed the last person, you might want to be documenting it for once you die, you know, an alien species comes about because whatever happened on earth is a pretty special thing. And if you're the last one, you might be like the last person to tell the story of what happened. And so that's going to be a way to convince yourself that this is important. And so the days will go by like this, but it would be lonely. Boy, would that be lonely? It would be, well, if you delve into the dredges, the depths of it. Yeah, I mean, there is going to be existential dredges, but also, I don't know, I think hope will burn bright. You'll be looking for the humans. That's, you know, one of the reasons that's important to talking to you, things I appreciate about you is you, you're always not out of naivety, but you're always choose to look at the positive. And I think that's a powerful mindset to have. I appreciate it. Yeah. That'd be a pretty cool survival situation, though, if you're the last person on earth, you could share it. You could share it. Yeah. Like I said, many people consider you the most successful competitor on alone. The other successful one is Roland Welker, rock house guy. Oh, yeah. This is just a fun ridiculous question, but head to head. Who do you think survives longer? If you want to get rid of the competitive side of it, I would just say, well, I'm pretty dang sure I had more pounds of food. But, and I didn't have the advantage of knowing when it would end, which I think would have been a great psychological. It would have made it really easy. Once I got the moose, I could have shot the moose and just not stressed. I would have been like a, and so that was a big difference between the seasons that I felt like, I mean, I felt like the psychology of season seven, they kind of messed up by doing a hundred day cap because for my own experience, that was the hardest part. But Roland's a beast. So for people who don't know, they put a hundred day cap on. So it's whoever can survive a hundred days for that season. It's interesting to hear that for you, the uncertainty, not knowing when it ends. That was for sure. It's the hardest. That's true. It's like you wake up every day. I didn't know how to ration my food. I didn't know if I was going to lose after six months, and then it was all going to be for not. I didn't know if it, you know, I just, there's so many unknowns. You don't know, like I said, if I shot a moose and it was a hundred days done, if I shot a moose and you don't know, it's like crap. I could still lose to somebody else. But it's going to be way in the future. So anyway, that for me was definitely the hard part. When you found out that you won and your wife was there, it was funny because you're really happy. That was a great sort of moment of you reuniting. But also there's a state of shock of like, you look, you look like you were ready to go much longer. That was the most genuine shock I could have. I hadn't even like entertained the thought yet. I didn't even think it was, you'd hear the helicopters. And I just assumed there was other people out there. I just hadn't thought, you know, and for one, the previous person that had gone along, I said, gone 89 days. So I just knew whoever else was out here with me, somebody's got that in their crosshairs, they're going to get to 90 and they're not going to quit at 90. They're going to go to 100. You know, I just figured we can't start thinking about the end until the couple of months from when it ended. So I was just shocked. And they tricked me pretty good. They know how to make you think you're not, you know, that they're not. So they want you to do the surprise. Yeah, they wanted to be a surprise. You really weren't. I mean, you have to do that. I guess for survival. Don't be counting the days. No, I think that would be, then you know, you see that on some of the people do that for myself. That would be bad psychology, because then you're just always disappointing yourself. You have to be resettled with the fact that this is going to go a long time and suck. Once you come to peace with that, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, but you're not going to be constantly disappointed. So what was your diet like? Like what was your eating habits like during that time? Like how many meals a day? This is Oh, no, I was trying to eat the thing. I was like not trying to, the more the moose is hanging out there, the more the critters, every critter in the forest is trying to pack at it or mice trying to eat it and stuff. So one of the ways you can protect the food is biting it. So I was having three good meals a day, and then I'd like, cook up some meat and go to sleep and then wake up in the middle of the night because they're long nights and like, have some meat at night, eat a bunch at night, and then so I'd usually have a fish stew for lunch and then moose for breakfast and dinner, and then have some for the nighttime snack because the nights were long. So you'd be in bed like 14 hours and wake up and eat and think around and go back to sleep. Is it okay that I was pretty low carb situation? Yeah, I actually felt really good. I tried to, I tried to, I think I would have felt better if I would have had a higher percentage of fat because you know, it's still more protein than if you're on a keto diet, you want a lot of fat. And so I did not try to mix in like nature's carbs, different like reindeer liken and things like that, but honestly, I felt pretty good on that diet that we'll see. How did you, what's the secret to like protecting food in what are the different ways? Yeah, it's a lot of times, you know, in a typical situation in the woods hunting, you'll raise it up in a tree in the bag, put in like a game bag so the birds can't peck at it and hang it in a tree so that it cools. You got to make sure first to cool it because it'll spoil. So you cool it by whatever means necessary, hanging it in a cool place, letting the air blow around it. And then you'll notice that every forest free loader in the woods is going to come to steal your food. Yeah. And it was just fun. I mean, it was, it was crazy to watch. You know, it's like all the J, all the camp J's pecking at it or everything I did, you know, was, was there was something that could get to it. They've put on the ground, the mice get on and they poop on it and they kind of mess it up. So I ultimately kind of just donned on me shoot. I'm going to have to build one of those eventy like food caches. So I did and I put it up there and I thought I kind of solved my problem to be honest the eventy then. So they would have taken a page out of like, they would have mixed me in roll and solution. They've built a tall still shelter and then put a box on the top that's enclosed. And then the bears can't get to it. The mice can't poop on it. The birds, the wolverine, you know, it's safe. And I'd never finished it. I mean, in hindsight, I don't actually know why. I think I was just the way it timed. Like I didn't think something was going to be up there. Then it did and then I, you know, you're counting calories and stuff I should have in hindsight just boxed it in right away. To get ready for the long, for the long haul. Yeah. Yeah. Is a rabbit starvation a real thing? Yeah. So you can't just live off protein and rabbits are almost just protein. I'd kill a rabbit, eat the innards and the brain and the eyes. And then everything else is just protein. And so it takes more calories to, you know, process that protein than you're getting from it without the fat. So you actually lose. I lost. I had, you know, a lot of rabbits in the first 20 days. I had 28 rabbits or something. But I was losing weight at exactly the same speed as everybody else that didn't have anything. So that's interesting. Yeah. And I'd never tried that before. So I was wondering if, I'm catching ton of rabbits. I wonder if I can last what six months under rabbits. But no, you just starve as fast as everybody else inside to kind of learn that on the fly and adjust. I wonder what to make of that. Like, so you need fat to survive like fundamental. Yeah. That's the, yeah. Any of you noticed when the Wolverine came or when animals came, they would eat the skin off of the fish. They would eat the eyes, you know, they'd steal the moose fat. They'd leave all the meat. Yeah. Like behind the eyes is a bunch of fat. So yeah, you can kind of observe nature and see what they're eating and know where the gold is. What do you like eating when you're like, when you can eat whatever you want? What do you feel best eating? What do I feel best? I just try to eat clean. I think, where I'm not like super strict or anything. But I think when I eat less carbs, I feel better, meat and vegetables. I like, we eat a lot of, you know, I eat a lot of meat. So basically everything you ate on the low plus some veggies plus veggies. I'm throwing some buckwheat. I like buckwheat. That's a good one. Let's step to the, the early days of Jordan. So your Instagram handles Hobo Jordan. So early on in your life, you hoboed around the US on freight trains. What's the story behind that? My brother, when he was 17 or so, he just decided to go hitchhiking and he hitchhiked down to Reno from Idaho. Oh, everywhere. And he ended up loving traveling, but hated being dependent on other people. So he ended up jumping on a freight train and just did it. He honestly, he pretty much got on a train and traveled the country for the next eight years on trains, lived in the streets and everywhere. But, you know, he was sober. So it gave you a different experience than I thought. But at one point when I was, I guess yeah, 18, he invited me to come along with him. He'd probably been doing it five or so four or five years and, or more. And I said, sure, so I quit my job and went out with him. Hobo, Jordan is a bit of an overstead, I feel self-conscious about that 'cause I rode trains across the country up and down the coast, back. You know, spent the better part of the year and round riding trains and all the staying in places related to that. But all the people, you know, the real Hobos, those guys are out there doing it for years on end. But it was such a, for me, what it felt like was a, it felt like a bit of a right of passage experience, which is kind of missing, I think, in modern life. So I did this thing that was a huge unknown. I had been kind of was there with me, my brother, for most of it, we traveled around, got pushed my boundaries in every which way, you know, froze at night and did all the stuff. And then, at the end, I actually wanted to go back and go back home. And so I went on my own and went from Minneapolis back, you know, at the Spokane on my own, which was a first, my first stint of time by myself for like a week, which was interesting. - Alone with your own thoughts. - With your own thoughts is my first time in my life haven't been like that, you know, and so it was, it was powerful at the time. You know what it did, too, is it gave me a whole different view of life 'cause I had gotten a job when I was 13 and then 14, 15, 16, 17. And then I was just in the normal run of things kind of, and then that just threw a whole different path into my life. And then I realized some of the things while I was traveling that I wouldn't experience again until I was living with natives and such. And that was, you know, the wake up, you don't have a schedule. You literally just have needs and you just somehow have to meet your needs. And so it's, there's a really sense of freedom you get that is hard to replicate elsewhere. And so that was eye-opening to me. And I think once I did that, I went back. So I went back to my old job at the salad dressing plant and there's this old cross-eyed guy and he was, "Oh, oh my God, I was back." And that's kind of where I got it. But that freedom always was very important to me, I think from that time on. - Would you learn about the United States about the people along the way? 'Cause I took a road trip across the U.S. also. And there's a romantic element there too of the freedom of the, or maybe for me, not knowing what the home gonna do with my life, but also excited by all the possibilities and then you meet a lot of different people, a lot of different kinds of stories. And also a lot of people that support you for traveling. 'Cause there's a lot of people kind of dream of experiencing that freedom. At least the people I've met, and they usually don't, they usually don't go outside of their little town. They have a thing and they have a family usually and they don't explore, they don't take the leap. And you could do that when you're young. I guess you could do that any moment. Just say, "Fuck it," and leap into the abyss of being on the road. But anyway, would you learn about this country about the people in this country? You're in an interesting context when you're on trains 'cause the trains always end up in the crappiest part of town, and you're always outside interacting. Well, the interesting things, every once in a while, I'll have to hitchhike to get from one place to another. One interesting thing is you notice you always get picked up by the poor people or the people that empathize with you, stop, pick you up. You go to whatever ghetto, I mean, you end up in and people are like, "Oh, what are you guys doing?" Real friendly and relatable. It kind of broadened my horizons for sure from being just an eye to hope, kid, and meeting all these different people and just seeing the goodness in people and this and that. It's also a very, you know, a lot of drugs and a lot of people with mental issues that you're friends with, dealing with, and all that kind of stuff. So any memorable characters? - Well, there's a few for sure. I mean, a lot of them I still know that are still around, but that Rocco was one guy we travel that he's become like a brother, but he was, he traveled with my brother for years 'cause they were the two sober guys kind of. And he, rather than traveling 'cause he was hooked on stuff, did it to escape all that. And so he was kind of sober and straight edge. He always, he was like five, seven, Italian guy. That was always getting in fights and yeah, his own sense of ethics that I think is really interesting 'cause he's super honest, but he expects it of others. And so as funny in the modern context, the thing that pops in my head is when he got a car for the first time, which wasn't that long, you know, his 30s or something, and he registered it, which he was mad about that he had to register. But then the next year, they told him he had to register again. And he's like, what did he lose my registration? Went down there to the DMV, chewed him out that he had to re-register 'cause he already registered. Where's the paperwork? But he just kind of used the world from a different lens that I thought, but on everything, he's the character. Now he just lives by digging up bottles and finding treasures in them. - But he notices the injustices in the world. - He notices them in a very, and speaks up. And he's always like, why doesn't everybody else speak up about their car registration? (laughing) And then there was like, you know, Devo comes in mind because he was such a unique character as far as just, for one, he would have lived to be 120 'cause the amount of chemicals and everything else he put into his body and still. - Right, man, you know, one of those guys, you can always get a dime, you know? He's spare time, spare time, and you have bum change. And I'd see him sometimes and I'd be gone and then go to New York to visit my sister or something. And I'd be sure enough, there's Devo on the street. What do you know? I mean, you go visit him in the hospital 'cause you got bit by 27 hobo spider bites, you know? You're just always rough, but charismatic vital, like the vitality of life was in him, but it was just so permeated with drugs and alcohol too. - I wonder what you think. - 'Cause I met people like that. They're like, there's just, yeah, joy permeates the whole way of being. And they're like, they've been through some shit. They've scars, they've got them rough, but they've always got a big smile. This guy I met in the jungle in the Pico, he lost the leg and he drives a boat and he just always says a big smile, even given that like the hard trip he has to get to, everything requires a huge amount of work. But he's just big smile and there's stories in those eyes. - It was something about, yeah, enduring difficulty that makes you able to appreciate life and look at it and smile. - Any advice for you to take a road trip again? Or if somebody else is thinking of hopping out on a freight train or hitchhiking. - Why are you easier now 'cause you have a map on your phone and you feel like you're going, you're kind of cheating now. - It's not about the destination. 'Cause the map is about the destination. - Right. - But here's like-- - Yeah, right, give a chance. - Where are you going? - Yeah. - Going anywhere. - Exactly, that's it. - I say do it, like go out and do things, especially when you're young, experiences and stuff help create the person you will be in the future. Putting, doing things that you think, like, oh, I don't want to do that, I'm a little scared of that. I mean, that's what you got to do. You just get out of your comfort zone and you will grow as a person and you'll go through a lot of wild experiences along the way. Say yes to life. - Say yes to life, yeah. I love the boredom of it. - Freight train riding is very boring. (laughing) And you'll wait for hours for a train that never comes and then you'll go to the store and come back and it'll be gone. You're like, no! I mean, but I remember we went to jail, we got out and then, - I mean, how'd you end up in jail? - Oh, you know, it was-- - Thank you. - Trust pass, I got a train, but we were riding a train and my brother woke up and they had a dead outland on his head and he got hit the train and fell on him and we were like, woke up and we were laughing. That's gotta be some kind of bad old man. (laughing) - And then we were like, looking out of the train and we saw a train worker look and saw us, and he went, "Oh, we know that's a bad old man." (laughing) Anyway, sure enough, the police stopped the train. Somebody had seen us on it and they searched it, got us and threw us in jail. It was not a big deal or a jail couple days. And then, but when we got out, of course they put us, we were in some podung town in Indiana and we didn't know where to catch out of there. And so we were at some factory and we just ran in factory and we were ready there for like four days. No train that was going slow enough that we could catch and then we found this big old roll of aluminum foil and I got to apologize to this woman 'cause we were so bored just sitting there, we built these hats, horns coming out every which way and loops and just sitting there and it was that night and some minivan pulled up to this train that was coming by and we were like, "We're currently searching for ourself, entertaining yourself with whatever you can." Poor lady was terrified. - So hitchhiking was tough. - I didn't like hitchhiking just 'cause you're depending on the other people. And it is not, I don't know why, You just want to be independent. But if you do meet really cool people a lot of times, there's really nice people that pick you up and and that's cool But I just personally actually didn't do it a lot And I wasn't you know, if you're on the streets for Ten years you'll end up doing it a lot more because you need to get from point A But we just tried to avoid it as much as we could because didn't appeal to us as much Well that one downside of hitchhiking is People talk a lot so it's it's both the pro and the con yeah, yeah because they'll you know Sometimes you just want to be sort of alone with your thoughts or There is a kind of lack of freedom in having to listen to a person that's giving you a And then you don't know how to react to I mean I was the young remember I got picked up at 19 or something and Then I was just like hey, how's it going? I was like how's my husband just died and then yeah, then this all and I got diagnosed with cancer and this is that and but And pretty bitter and all that and Understandably so but you're just like I have no idea how to respond here And so then you're young and you had to be nice and I and I remember that ride Being interesting because I didn't really know how to respond and she was Angry and going through some stuff and and dumping it out She didn't have anyone else to dump it out on it like wow. I'm gonna take the freight train next time So how'd you end up in Siberia? I'll try to keep it a little bit short on the how But I bet the long story short was out of brother that's adopted and when he grew up He wanted to find his biological mom and just tell her thanks and and So he did and when he was he was probably 20 or something he found his biological mom told her things turns out he had a brother That was gonna go over to Russia and help build this orphanage and that brother was about my age I mean, I remember at that time I read this verse that said if you're in the darkness and see no light Just continue following me basically. I was like, okay, I'm gonna Take that to the bank even though I don't know if it's true or not and then the only glimpse of like light I got in all that was when I heard about that orphanage you go build that orphanage and And I prayed about it and I felt and that and I can't I explained like I brought me to tears I felt so strongly that I should go and so I was like well, that's a clear call. I'm just gonna do it Yes, I just bought a ticket got a visa for a year and then I went and Help build an orphanage and we got that built and I wanted but he was an American and I wanted to live with Russians to learn a language And so he sent me to a neighboring village to live with a couple Russian families that needed a hand and Somebody to watch their kids and cut their hay and milk the cow and all that so I found myself in that little Russian village just Getting to know these two guys and their families. It was a It was pretty fascinating and of course, I didn't know the language yet and they were two awesome dudes Both of them had been in prison and met each other in prison and like we're really close because they had their Found God in prison together and and stayed to get you got out and Stayed connected and so I'd bounce back between those two families and they used to always tell me about their third buddy They'd been in prison with who was a native fur trapper now in the north and so they thought you gotta go meet our buddy up north and One day that guy came through To sell furs in the city and he like invited me to come live with them and my visa was about to expire But I was like when I come back I'll come and so I went back home earned some more money and did some construction or whatever then went back and headed north to hang out with Yura and fur trapping and That started a whole new You know open a whole new world that I didn't know about before we talked about Yura and fur trapping Let's actually rewind and Would you describe that moment when you were in a darkness as a Crisis of faith. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah for sure. It was like a It was darkness in that I I didn't know how to parse You know, what is this thing that's my faith and and what and what is what's the wheat and what's the chaff and how do I get through it and? Basically just clung to keeping it really simple and and oddly enough In my Christian path it would that God was actually defined in a certain God is love and I was just like that's the only thing I'm gonna cling to you know and I'm gonna try to express that in my life in whichever way I can and Just trust that if I do that if I act like I you know, I've heard this lately, but if you just act like you believe Over time that world kind of opens to you when I said I would go to Russia I pray and I was like Lord that I don't see you. I don't know, but I got this what I felt like was a clear call I have only one request and that is that you would give me the faith to match my Action, you know, I'm choosing to believe like I could choose not to because you know, whatever but I'm gonna choose to act and I just asked to have faith someday and then And then and honestly for the whole first year I went through and that was a very Crazy time for me learning the language being isolated We misunderstood and then but then trying to approach all that with a loving open heart And then I came back and I realized how that that prayer had kind of an answer That wasn't the end of my journey, but it was I was like whoa that was like my deepest Request that I could come up with and somehow that had been answered so through that year you were just like First of all, you couldn't speak the language. That's really tough. That's really tough because it's unlike on a loan where Because not only cannot speak and you feel isolated, but you're also misunderstood all the time So you've seemed like an idiot and all that and so that was tough. I felt very Alone at that time at certain times in that journey, but you were sort of radiating Like you said lead would love so you were radiating this kind of camaraderie I was really intentional about trying to About that that was I don't know why I'm here. I just know that I You know that that's my call is to love one another and so I've just tried to like what and then I've meant digging people's wells It might men just go in and visit in that old laid babush cup at the house It's lonely or go and I was really cool. I got to talk to some fascinating ladies and stuff and in what go to that village Hope those families. I'm gonna be like cut the hay be the most the hardest worker I can be because That's my goal here. I didn't have any other agenda or except to try to live a life of love And I couldn't define it beyond that. What was it like learning the Russian language? Oh, it was super interesting. I think I had the thought while I was learning it one that it was way too hard like if I would have just learned Spanish or German I would be so much farther, but here I am A year in and I'm like how do you say I want cheese properly? But at the same time it was really cool to learn a language that That I thought in a lot of ways was richer than English. It was it's a very rich language. I remember there was a Comedy act in Russian, but he was saying you know on one word you can't have in English is native piti pilsa meaning like I didn't drink enough to get drunk You know that type thing and but it's just that you can make up these words using different prefets You know prefixes and suffixes and like blend them in a way that is quite unique and interesting And honestly would be really good for poetry because it also doesn't have sentence structure in the same way English does The words can be jumbled in a way and somehow in the process of jumbling some humor some some musicality comes out. It's interesting like you can be witty in Russian much easier than you can in English like witty and funny and And it also with poetry you can say profound things by messing with words and the order of words Which is hilarious because you had a great conversation with Joe Rogan and on that program you talked about You know how to say I love you It was for me the first time I don't know why it's you were a great person to articulate The flexibility in the power of the Russian language. That's really interesting because you were saying like yeah Le blue tibia yeah tibia. Le blue tibia. Yeah, you could say every single order every single comment combination of ordering of those words Is has the same meaning But slightly different you could like it would change the meaning if you took y'all out and you said Le blue tibia. Yeah, there's like a different emphasis or maybe or yeah to be out of the blue or something you know Like all these different or just to be out of the blue also right exactly And so it is rich and that when it was interesting coming from an English context and getting a glimpse of that And then wondering about all those, you know, Russian authors that we all appreciate that Oh, we'd actually aren't getting the full the full deal here. Oh, yeah, definitely. I've recently become a fan Actually, of Larissa Volkanski and Richard Perveer. There are these World famous translators of Russian literature Tolstoy the C.F. Ski check of Pushkin Bogak of Buster Nakh They've helped me understand Just how much of an art form translation really is Some authors do that art more translatable than others like the C.F. Ski is more translatable But then you can still spend a week on one set No, yeah, like just how do I exactly capture this very important sentence but I think what's more powerful is not Like literature, but conversation which is one of the reasons I've been I've been caring and feeling the responsibility of Having conversations with Russian speakers Because I can still see the music of it I can still see the wit of it and in conversation it comes out like really Interesting kinds of wisdom you you like you when I listen to like world leaders that speak Russian speak and I see the translation And it loses it loses the irony the You like in between the words if you translate them literally you you lose The reference in there to the history of the people's yeah for sure And I've definitely seen that on like I you know when if you listen to I think it probably was a Putin speech or something And you just see that oh wow something majors being lost in translation you can actually see it happen I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the case with the you know that whole greatest tragedy is the fall of the Soviet Union I hear him being quoted is saying all the time I bet you there's something in there that's being lost in translation that is Interesting, I think the thing I see the most lost in translation is the humor Mm-hmm. I'll just say that that was the hard it that was the tangibly the hardest part about learning the language is that humor comes last And you have to like wait if to wait that whole year You know or however long it takes you to learn the language to be able to start getting the humor you know some of it comes through But you miss so much nuance and it and and that was really difficult in interaction with people to like just be the guys We know when when there's humor going on and you're totally oblivious to it. Yeah, we're laughing in your life. Yeah Trying to laugh along. What do they make of you? It's to be honest this person that came from no descendant upon us If I had a nickel for every time I heard like oh Americans suck, but you're a good American. You're like the only good American I've ever met but then they've of course they never met You know, I think because I was just tried to work hard try to be more useful than I was a drain all that they all I think I think it was Pretty appreciated me out there. I've heard definitely heard that a lot. And so that's nice Can you talk about their way of life? So like when you when you're doing for trapping as a per trapping was an interesting experience you you basically what you do in October something you'll go out to your hunting cabin and you know how they're you'll have like three hunting cabins You'll go stock them with noodles or whatever it is and then for the next couple months or however long you'll go from one cabin Usually the guys are just out there doing this on their own so they'll go out and though Go from one cabin and each cabin will have five or six trap lines going out of it every day It'll take a half a day to walk to the end of your trap line open all the traps and a half a day to get back and they'll do that This will spend a week at a cabin open up all the traps and then it'll take a day to hike over to the other cabin Go to that one open up all those traps and then there and then like three weeks later So they'll end up back at the first cabin and then check all the traps and so it's kind of that rhythm and they'll do that for You know a couple few months during the winter and your trap in Sable they're called sable like pine Martin is what we would have the equivalent of over here and What is it? It's like a weasel a furry little weasel and they make coats out of it and so when I went He showed me how to open the trap show me the ropes gave me a topographical map There's one cabin. There's the other and we parted ways for like five weeks. We did run into each other once in the middle there At a cabin other than that. Yeah, you're just off by herself Hoping to shoot a grouse or something to add to your noodles and make your meal better catch a fish and then Work and really hard trying not to get lost and stuff. How do you get from one trap and location to the next? That's funny because I it was Both basically by landmarks and feel like I didn't have come this and things like that so I feel Okay, I got myself into trouble once and I the first time I went to one I got myself into trouble for the first time I went to the other cabin I nailed it and so I had two different experiences on my first trip But the the one that I nailed it. I remember I had to go and it's like a day hike I was like, well, I know the cabin south and so if I just walk south You know the left the sun should be on the left in the morning and right in front of me in the middle of the day and by evening It should like end up at my right and just kind of guess what time it is and and follow along and And it's you know, it takes all day and a kid you not it ended up like a hundred yards from the cabin This is the trail and that's the cabin like oh amazing and then the other time I went out and Heading over the mountains and I thought you know hours had passed. I probably had gotten slightly lost and then I thought I was halfway there so I thought okay I'm gonna sit down and cook some cook some food get a drink I'm thirsty to sat down and Went to start a fire and my matches had gotten all wet because it snow had fallen on me and soaked me and I didn't have them wrapped in plastic I was like oh, no, I can't drink water, you know, so I was like well I'm just gonna power through I'm halfway there. Well I kept hiking and then I realized it was getting night and And then I realized I was at the halfway point because I saw this rock that I was like oh, no, that's the halfway point I was like I can't do this since I need to go get water. I ended up having to divert down the mountain and head to the water I ended up you know There's a whole ordeal I had to take my skis off because I was going through an old forest fire burns So they were all really close trees, but then the snow was like this deep So I was just trudging through and just wishing a bear would eat Get it over with that finally made it down to the water Chopped the hole through the eyes was able to take a sip. So you're severely dehydrated I'm severely dehydrated and I exhausted exactly cold like You know you feel sort of nervous you're then over your head and then I and then I got down to the river Chopped the whole nice drink it hiked up the river and eventually got to the other cabin It was probably three in the morning or something. He chopped a hole in the ice to get some water It was this got to be like the one of the worst days of your life You know it was a bad day for sure It was a bad day and here's what was funny as I got to the cabin at like three in the morning and I Should have brushed over a lot of the like the misery that I had felt and I Layed down that's about to go to sleep and then Europe charges in from What are you doing? I was like how's it going? He's got sucks and you lay down and just fell asleep I fell asleep and I was like oh that's funny the last few weeks that we've been apart Who knows what he went through who knows why he was there at that time at night all just summarize in the sucked and we went to sleep in the next morning We parted ways and you know And you didn't really tell never knew neither of us said what happened. It's just like oh, that's interesting Yeah, and he probably was through similar kind of thing. Yeah, like what gave you strength in those in those hours when you're You know just going to waste high snow. Yeah, all of that you're laughing But like that's hard. Yeah You know that rations that phrase in a close-up biazza doki deal. Eyes are afraid hands do. I'm sure there's a poetic way to translate that right It's kind of like you know just put one foot in front of the other you know when you think about what you have to do It's really intimidating and But you just know if I just do it if I just do it if I just keep trudging Eventually I'll get there and pretty soon you realize you'll have covered a couple kilometers, alright? And so when you're really in it in those moments I guess you're just you're just putting your head down and getting through. I've had some other moments There's wisdom to that mm-hmm like once Just take it one step at a time one step at a time I think that a lot honestly I tell myself that a lot when I'm about to do something really hard just You know, so I buy so doki deal. It's one step at a time. I'm just gonna get Don't like sit there and think oh, that's a long ways. Yeah, just go and then you'll look back and you covered a bunch of ground One of the things I've realized it was helpful in the jungle. That was one of the biggest realizations for me It's like it really sucks right now But when I look back at the end of the day I Won't really remember exactly how much it sucked. I'll have a vague notion of it sucking and I'll remember the good thing So being dehydrated. I'll remember drinking water And I won't really remember the hours of feeling like shit. That's absolutely true I don't it's so funny how like this awareness of that having been through it and then being aware of it means next time You face it you like you know what once this is over I'm gonna look back on it and it's gonna be like that and nothing and I'll actually laugh about it and think it was It's a thing. I'll remember you know I remember that story of that miserable day going down to the ice and I can smile about it now And now that I know that I can be in a miserable position and realize that that's what the outcome will be once I Once it's over just gonna be a story if you survive if you survive and that can be So you mentioned you've learned about hunger during these times like One was like the hungry as you've gotten it was the first time so Continue the story slightly. I it was I went for a trip and when that guy and then it turned out all his cousins were these Native nomadic reindeer herders and after I like earned his trust and he liked me a lot. He took me out to his cousins who were all these you know nomads living in teapies. I was like this is awesome. I didn't even know people still lived like this and they were really open and welcoming because their cousin just brought me out there knowing and vouched for me but it was during fencing season and fencing in Siberia for those reindeer it's like an incredible thing you take an axe you go out and you just build these 30 kilometer loop fences with just logs interlocking it's tons of work and all these guys are more efficient bodies they're better at it and I'm just like working less efficiently and also a lot bigger dude but we're all just on the same rations kind of and and I got down that was like 155 pounds you know getting down pretty dang skinny for my six three frame and just working really hard and then in the spring in Siberia there's no like there's not much to forage you know in the fall you can have pine nuts and this and that but in the spring you're just stuck with whatever random food you've got and so that's where I've lost the most weight and felt the most hungry and it had a lot of other issues you know I was new to that type of work and so working as hard as I could but also making mistakes chopping myself with the axe and and getting injured all kind of stuff you know so injuries plus very low calorie intake low yeah and exhausted I remember it if you got your thus poor son of a gun to get stuck slice in the bread you know like you're here cutting the bread and somebody throws all the spoons and drops the pot of soup there and it's like before you can even done slice in your slice all the meats like we've gone from the bowl everybody else was grab this spoon and midair and and you're like oh hoping this one little noodles are gonna give me a lot of nourish wow so everybody gets sent me yeah first come first serve I guess because it's like all the dudes out there working on the fence so you mentioned the axe and you gave me a present yeah this is a probably the most badass present I've ever gotten so tell me the story of this of this axe so the natives when I got there I thought you know I grew up on a farm I thought I was pretty good with an axe but they do tons of work with those things and and I really grew to love their type of axe or style of axe and I'll just an axe in general they'd always say it's the one tool you need to survive in the wilderness and and I agree and what was this one has certain yeah design features that the natives that was unique to the event key to the natives I was with one is with these Russian heads or the Soviet heads whatever they had they're a little wider on top here meaning you can put the handle through from the top like a Tomahawk and it I mean you're not dealing with a wedge and if it ever loosens and you're swinging it only gets tighter it doesn't fly off and so that's something that's kind of cool then they have what's what they do that's unique is so you can see this is the Wolverine axe that's got the little Wolverine head in honor of that Wolverine I fought on the show so you have actually two axes this is one of the smaller this is a little smaller I didn't want to make it too small because you need a something to actually work out there you need something kind of serious but then they sharpen it from one side so if you're right-handed you sharpen it from the right side and that means when you're in the woods and living there's a lot of times where you're whether you're making a table or a sleigh or an axe handle or whatever you're doing that you're holding the wood and doing this work and it makes it really good for that planing the other thing it is especially in northern woods all the trees are like this big you know that you're never cutting down a big giant tree and so when you swing with a single sided axe like this sharpened from the one side it really with your right hand swing like this it really bites into the wood and gives you because with that if you can picture it that angle is going to cause deflection and without that angle on your right-handed swing it just like bites in there like crazy and so that there's other little you know the handle was made by some Amish guys in Canada this is all hand forged by uh oh it's hand forged yeah that mean yeah look and so it's a pretty sweet little yeah it's amazing there's other thing you know like I slightly rounded this pole here it's just a little nuance because when you pound a stake in if you picture it if it's if it's con vex when you're pounding it it's going to blow the fibers apart if it has just a slight concave it helps hold the fibers together and so it's a little nuance not too flat because you want to still be able to use the back as you would what kind of stuff are you using the axe for oh so the axe is super important to chop through ice in a winter situation which you probably hopefully won't need but what I use an axe all the time for is when I'm when it's wet and rainy and you need to start a fire like it's it's hard to get to the middle of drywood if just a knife or a saw it's a you can I can go out there find a dead tall tree you know dead standing tree chop it down split it apart split it open get to the drywood on the inside shave it some little curls and have a fire going pretty fast and so if I have an axe I feel always confident that I can get a quick fire in whatever weather and I wouldn't feel the same without it in that regard so that's the main thing of course you can use it I use it if you're taking an animal apart or if you're what you know all kinds of what else build in the shelter teeth skin and tee peep holes or whatever you're doing what's the use of a saw versus the axe I greatly prefer an axe a saw though has its value goes up quite a bit when you're in hardwoods like when you're in a hardwood oaks and hickory and things like that it's they're a lot harder to chop so a saw is pretty nice in those situations I'd say in those situations I'd like to have both in the north woods and in like more coniferous forests I don't think there's enough advantages that a saw occurs with the good axe now you'll see people with little like camp axes and stuff and they just don't think they like axes it's like well you haven't actually tried to try a good one first and get good with it the one thing about an axe they're dangerous so you need to like practice always control it with two hands make sure you're not you know where it's gonna go it doesn't hit you or when you're chopping like so you're creating something that you're not doing it on rocks and stuff so that it's you're doing on top of wood so that when you're hitting the ground you're not dull in your axe you know there's you got to be a little bit thoughtful about it have you ever injured yourself on an axe in the early days oh yeah that first so I'd gotten a knee surgery and then about three months later I had torn my ACL I went over to Russia and I was like well I got a good knee it's okay and then that's when I was building that fence that first time and at one point I chopped my rubber boot with my axe that reflected off and I was new to him and and I was really frustrated because I'd done it before and and a native guy was like oh you know we got I think there's a boot we left you know a lot you know a few years ago we left a boot like four kilometers that way so we got the reindeer took him wrote him over sure enough there's a stump with a boot upside down pull it off put it on I like sweet and back in business I'm going back a couple days later think to chop it cut your foot cut my rubber boot and I was just like dang it now it's mad enough that I just grabbed that axe and swung it at the tree and it just one handed and like deflected off and ran right into my nose and I was like oh I fell down I was like oh my gosh because you get your axe really like razor sharp and then just swung it into my knee I didn't even want to look I was like oh no I looked and it wasn't a huge wound because it had hit right on the bone of my knee but it split the bone cut a tendon there and I was on the middle wood so I literally like I knew I was in shock as I'm just gonna go back to T.P. right now so I like ram back to T.P. laid down and honestly I was stuck there for a few days I was that's so much pain and my other knee was bad I couldn't even literally couldn't even walk at all or move I had to like there's a plastic bag I'd be like pooping it like roll to the edge of the T.P. like shove it under the box like I can't just totally immobilize I guess that should teach you to not act when you're in a state of frustration or anger there you go I mean it's such a lesson too there were so many of those and it was always I was always in a little bit over my head but I said you kind of do that enough and you make a lot of mistakes but every time you learn I'm like now it's like an extension of my heart that's not gonna happen because I just know how it works now you mentioned what would how you start a fire when everything's around you is wet I mean it depends on your environment but I will say in most of force that I spend a lot of time in and all the north woods the best thing you can do is find a dead standing tree so it can be downpouring rain and you chop that tree down and then when you when you split it open no matter how much it's been raining it'll be dry on the inside so you chop that tree down chop a piece you know foot long piece out and then split that thing open and then split it again and then you get to that inner dry wood and then you try to do this maybe under a spruce tree or under your own body so that it's not gonna rain down while you're doing it make a bunch of little curls that a lot catch a flame or light and then you make a lot a lot more kindling and little pieces of dry wood than you think because it'll happen you'll light it and it'll burn through and it's like dang it so just be patient you're gonna be fine you know like then make a nice pile of curls that you can light or spark and then get a lot of good dry kindling. And then don't be afraid to just boom, boom, boom, pile a bunch of wood on and make a big old fire, get warm as fast as you can. It's amazing how much that other recharge it is when you're cold and wet. - You can throw relatively wet wood on top of that. - Once you get that going, yeah, then it'll dry as it goes, but you need to be able to split open and get all that nice dry wood on the inside. - I saw that you mentioned that you look for fat wood. What's fat wood? - So on a lot of pine trees, a place where the tree was injured when it was alive, it like pumps sap to it. And then there's a good point because I use this a lot. It pumps that tree full of sap and then years later the tree dies, dries out, rots away, but that sap infused wood. It's like turpentine in there, you know, it's oily. And so if it gets wet, you can still light it, it repulses water. And so if you can find that in a rainstorm, you can just make a little pile of those shavings, get the crappiest spark or quickest light and it'll just sit there and burn like a factory fire starter. You know, it's really, really nice, that's good to spot. It's a good thing to keep your eye out for. - Yeah, it's really fascinating. And then you make this thing. (laughing) - That's just to get the sauna going fast. (laughing) That was just too-- - What was that, that was a well? - Oh, it's a used motor oil ad if you mix it with some sawdust and then, no, the sauna's going just like that. It's gonna like homemade fat wood. - I don't know how many times I've watched happy people a year in the Tai Gabai, one of her's, you've talked about this movie. Where is that located relative to where you were? - So there's this big river called the Yannisay that feeds through the middle of Russia and there's a bunch of tributaries off of it. And one of the tributaries is called the Pud Kamin, the Atunguska, and I was up that river. And just a little ways north is another river called the Bachta. And that's where that village is where they filmed happy people. So in Siberian terms, we're neighbors. (laughing) - Nice. - Similar environment, similar place. That's for trapper that I was with knew the guy in the film. - What would you say about their way of life? Maybe in what you've experienced and in the way you saw in happy people? - There's something really powerful about spending that much time being independent. Depending on what we talk about a little early, but you're putting yourself in these situations all the time where you're uncomfortable, where it's hard, but then you're rising to the occasion, you're making it happen. There's nobody, when you're fur trapping by yourself, there's nobody else to look at, to blame for anything that goes wrong. It's just yourself that you're reliant on. And there's something about the natural rhythms that you are in when you're that connected to the natural world that really does feel like that's what we're designed for. And so there's a psychological benefit you gain from spending that much time in that realm. And for that reason, I think that people that are connected to those ways are able to tap into a particular, I noticed it a lot with the natives. So if I met the natives in the village, I would think of them as like unhappy people. Like they drink a lot, they always fight. And the murder rate is through the roof, the suicide rates, through the roof. But you meet those same people, how in the woods live in that way of life, I thought these are happy people. And it's kind of an interesting juxtaposition to be the same person. But then I lived in a native village that had the reindeer, herding going on around it. And everybody kind of benefited because of that. I also went to a native village that they didn't hold those ways anymore. And so everybody was just in the village life. And it just felt like a dark place. Whereas the other native village, it was rough in the village because everybody drank all the time. But when it had that escape and it had that escape album, and then once you're out there, it was just a whole different world. And it was such an odd juxtaposition. - It's funny that the people that go traveling, experience that happiness and still don't have a self-awareness to like stop themselves from then drinking and doing all the dark stuff when they go to the village. It's strange that you're not able to, you're in it. You're happy, but you're not able to sort of reflect on the nature of that happiness. - It's really weird. I've thought about that a lot. And I don't know the answer. It's like there's a huge draw to comfort. There's a huge, and it's all multifaceted and so complex because you can be out in the woods and have this really cool life. I will say it's a little bit different for men than women because the men are living the dream as far as what I would like. So you're hunting and fishing and managing reindeer and you got all these adventures. So what ends up happen is that a lot more guys and girl young men out there in the woods. And so there's a draw also, I think, to go to the village, probably to find a woman. And then there's a draw of technology and the new things. And I think it, but then once they're there, honestly, alcohol becomes so overwhelming that everything else kind of just fiddles away. - But it's funny that the comfort, you find, either draw the comfort, but once you get to the comfort, once you find the comfort, within that comfort, you become the lesser version of yourself. - Yeah, I hope for sure. - It's weird. - What a lesson for us. - We need to keep struggling. - Yeah, a lot of times you have to force yourself in that. So like if we took them as an example, I mean, a lot of times you'd drag us to drunk guy into the woods, literally just drag him into the woods. And then he'd sober up. And then he was like a month black out drunk and now he's sobered up and now boom, back into life, back into being a knowledgeable, capable person. And because comfort's so available to us all, you almost have to force yourself into that situation. Plan it out, okay, I'm gonna go do that. - That hard thing. - And do that hard thing and then deal with the consequences when I'm there. - What do you learn from that on the nature of happiness? What does it take to be happy? - Happiness is interesting because it's complex and multi-faceted. It includes a lot of things that are out of your control and a lot of things that are in your control. And it makes, it's quite the moving target in life. So I, one of the things that really impacted me when I was a young man, and I read the Gulag Archipelago was don't pursue happiness because the ingredients to happiness can be taken from you outside of your control, your health, your, but pursue like a spiritual fullness, pursue, pursue I think he words it duty. And then happiness may come alongside or it may not, but so he gave the example that I thought was really interesting and when in the prison camps, everybody's trying to survive. And they've made that their ultimate goal. I will get through this. And then, and they've all basically turned into animals and pursued that goal and like lying and cheating and stealing. And then he was like, somehow the corrupt Orthodox Church produced these little babushkas who were like candles in the middle of all this darkness because they did not allow their soul to get corrupted. And he's like, what they did do is they died. They all died, but they were lights while they were alive and lost their lives, but they didn't lose their souls. So for myself, that was really powerful to read and realize that the pursuit of happiness wasn't exactly what I wanted to aim at. I wanted to aim at living out my life according to love. Like we talked about earlier. - Trying to be that candle. Yeah, make that your ideal. And then in doing so is interesting. So for me personally, my personal experience is that is, I thought when I went to Russia that I kind of gave up, I was like in my 20s, I spent my whole 20s living in teapies and doing all this stuff that I thought I should give you getting a job, I should be pursuing a career, I should get an education of some sort. Like what am I doing for my future? But I felt I knew where my purpose was and knew where my calling was, I'm just gonna do it. And it sounds glamorous now when I talk about it, but it sucked a lot of the times. And there was a lot of loneliness, a lot of like giving up what I wanted, a lot of watching people I cared about. But you know, you put all this effort in and you just see the people that you put all this effort and just die and this and that. And then it's, it was that happened all the time. And then the other thing I thought I gave up was like a relationship because you couldn't, you know, I wasn't gonna find a partner over there. And so interestingly enough, now in life I can look back and be like, well, those two things I thought I gave up is where I've been like almost provided for the most in life. You know, I have this career guiding people in the wilderness that I love, like I genuinely love it. I find purpose in it. I know it's healthy and good for people. And then I have an amazing wife and an amazing family. Like how did that happen? But I didn't exactly aim at it. I consciously in a way, I mean, I hoped it was tangential but I aimed at something else, which was those lessons I kind of got from the Gulag archipelago. - So you have, just 'cause you, you mentioned Gulag archipelago, I gotta go there, you have some suffering in your family history, whether it's the Armenian, Assyrian genocide or the Nazi occupation of France. Maybe you could tell the story of that. What this survival thing runs in your blood, it seems. I love history, I find so much richness in knowing what other people. went through and find so much perspective in my own place in the world. I have the advantage of in my direct family. My grandparents, yeah, they went through the Armenian genocide, they were a Syrians, which was like a Christian minority and indigenous people in the Middle East. They lived in Northwestern Iran. And during the chaos of World War One, and the Ottoman Empire was collapsing and had all kinds of issues. And one of its issues was it had a big minority group and it thought it would be a good time to get rid of it. And they could justify it in all the ways you can. Like there's some people that were belling or this is that. But ultimately it was just a big collective guilt. And extermination politely against the Armenians and the Syrians and my grandparents. My grandma was 13 at the time and my grandpa was 17, which is interesting because it happened almost 100 years ago. But our generation, just my dad was born when my grandma was pretty old. So, but my grandmother, her dad was taken out to be shot. You know the turrets were coming in and rounding up all the men and they took them out to be shot. And then they took my grandma and her. She had seven brothers and sisters and her mom and they like drove her out into the desert. Basically, her dad got taken out to be shot. So, his name was Shalman Numara, whatever took him out. They were all tied up, all shot. And he'd say to quick prayer before they shot him. But he fell down and he found he wasn't hit. And usually, of course, they'd come up and stab everybody or finish him off. But there was some kind of an alarm and all the soldiers rushed off and he found himself in the bodies and was able to untie himself. They were naked and, you know, hungry and all that. And he ran out of there, escaped, went into a building and found the loaf of bread wrapped in a shirt and was able to escape. He fled, he never saw his family for, so to continue the story. My grandma got taken with her, with her mother and brothers and sisters and all just, they just drove him into the desert until they died. Basically, and run him around in circles and this and that and then all the raping and pillaging that accompanies it. And at one point, her mom had the baby and the baby died. And her mom just collapsed and said, I just can't go any further. And my grandma and her sister, like, picked her up to tea. We got to keep going and like, picked her up. They left the baby, along with the other. Everybody else had died. It was just the three of them left. And somehow, they bummed across this British military camp and were rescued. And neither the sister nor my great-grandmother ever really covered as far, you know, recovered from what I understand. But my grandma did, at the same time in another village in the Rand there, the Turks came in and were burning down my grandpa's village and they caught. And my grandpa's dad was in a wheelchair. He had like some money belt and he stuffed all his money in it and told it gave it to grandpa and just told him to run and don't turn back. And they came in the front door as he was running out the back and he never saw his dad again. But he said, he turned around and saw the house on fire. Never knew what happened to his sister, she then. So he was just alone. He ran. At some point, he, I can't remember. He like, lost his money belt. Like, he took his jacket off, forgot it was in it. Something happened. Anyway, so he got, he was in a refugee camp. He ended up getting taken in by some Jesuit missionaries. So anyway, both of them had lost basically everything. And then at some point, they met in Baghdad, started a family, immigrated to France. And then it just happened to be right before World War II. And so then the notch was invaded. My aunt, she's still alive, but she actually met a resistance fighter for the French and under a bridge somewhere. And they fell in love and she got married. So she had kind of an inn on the French resistance at one point. And of course, they were all hungry. They'd recently immigrated, but also had this Nazi occupation and all that. And so the Uncle Joe, the resistance fighter guy told him, like, hey, we're going to storm this noodle factory, like come. And so they storm the noodle factory and all my aunts around in there. And we're like throwing out noodles into wheelbarros. And everybody was running. Then the Nazis came back and took it back over. And shot a bunch of people and everything. And Grandpa, because he had already come from where he came from, was paranoid. So he buried all the noodles out in the garden. And then my two aunts got stuck in that factory overnight with all the Nazi guards or whatever. And then the Nazi guards went out from house to house to find everybody that had had noodles and punish them. But they didn't find my grandpa's. Fortunately, they searched his house, but not the garden. And then-- so they had noodles. And somehow it must have been in the same factory or something, but all the oil. And they just lived off of that for all the whole war years. My aunts ended up getting out of that. They hid behind boxes and crates overnight and stuff. And the resistance stormed again in the morning. And they got away and stuff. But anyway, chaos. So when they moved to America, I will say the most patriotic family everywhere. Ever loved it. Just like paradise here. I mean, that's a lot to go through. Well, lessons do you draw from that on perseverance? Look, I'm just one generation away from all that suffering. Like my aunts and uncles and dad and sufferer, the kids of these people. And somehow, I don't have that. What happened to all that trauma? Somehow, my grandparents bore it. And then they were able to build a family, but not just a family, but a happy family. Like, I knew all my aunts and uncles. And I didn't know them. They died before me, but they were-- it was so much joy. The family unions were the best thing ever at the Jonas's. And it's just like, how in one generation did you go from that to that? And it must have been a great sacrifice of some sort to not pass that much resentment. Or like, what did they do to break that chain in one generation? Do you think it works the other way, where their ability to escape genocide, to escape Nazi occupation, gave them a gratitude for life? Oh, yeah. It's not a trauma, in a sense, like, you're forever bearing it. The flip side of that is just gratitude to be alive when you know so many people at the Nazi bar. Yeah, it must be, because the only footage I saw of my grandma, it was like they were all the kids and stuff. And they were cooking up a rabbit that they were raising. But a joyful woman, you could see it. And she must have been so-- she must have understood how fortunate she was and been so grateful for it. And so thankful for every one of those 11 kids she had. So I recognized it again in my dad, because my dad went through a really slow, kind of painful decline in his health. And he had diabetes, ended up losing one leg. And so he lost his job. He had to watch his mom-- or my mom go to school, all he wanted to do was be a provider, be like a family man. I bet the best time in his life was when his kid's ran to him and gave him a hug. But then, all of a sudden, he found himself in a position where he couldn't work. And he had to watch his wife go to school, which was really hard for her, and become the breadwinner for the family. And he just felt like a failure. And I watched him go through that. After all these years of letting that foothill, we went out first day, and we were split in fire wed with a splitter. And he was so good to be back out Jordan at seven nights. And he crushed his foot in the log splitter. And he was like, no. And so then they just ambitated it. We've got both legs amputated. And then his health continued to decline. He lost his movement in his hands. So he was like incapacitated to a degree. And in a lot of pain, I would hear him at night in pain all the time. And I delayed a trip back to Russia and just stayed with my dad for those last six months. And it was so interesting, having had lost everything. I've watched him wrestle with it through the years. But then he found his joy and his purpose. Just in being almost, I mean, a vegetable. I'd have to help him pee, roll him under the cot, take him to dialysis. But we would laugh. He would like, we got here him at night crying, or like, in pain, like, ah! And then in the morning, he'd have like encouraging words to say. And I'd say, wow, that's how you face loss and suffering. And he must have gotten that from him, somehow from his parents. And then I find myself on this show. And I had a thought, like, why is this easy to me? In a way, like, you know, why is this thing that's-- And I was like, and it just felt like this gift that had kind of handed down. And now it would be my duty to hand down, you know? But it's kind of an interesting thought. And be the beacon of that. Represent that kind of perseverance in the simpler way that something like survival in the wilderness shows. Yes, it rhymes. It rhymes, and it's so simple. Like, the lessons are simple. And so we can take them and apply them. So that's on the survivor side. What about on the people committing the atrocities? What do you make of the Ottomans? What they did to Armenians or the Nazis? What they did to the Jews, the Slavs, and basically everyone? What do you-- what do you think people do evil in this world? And it's interesting that it's really easy, right? It's really easy. You can almost sense it in yourself to justify, to justify a little bit of evil or see yourself cheer a little bit when the enemy gets knocked back in some way, in the way it's just perfectly naturalist for us to feed that hate and feed that tribalism in group out group. And I think that can happen, I think it just happens slowly, like one justification at a time, one step at a time, you hear something and it makes you think that you are in the right to perform some kind of, you know, you're justifying and creating, you know, bring a couple eggs to make an omelette type thing, and then, but all of a sudden, that takes you down this whole train to where pretty soon you're justifying what's completely, unjustifiable. It's just gradual. Yeah. It's a gradual process of a little bit at a time. I think that's why, like for me, like having a path of faith works as like a mooring because it can help me shine that light on myself. You know, it's like something else, because if you're just looking at yourself and looking within yourself for your compass in life, it's really easy to get that thing out of whack, but you kind of need a perspective from which you can step out of yourself and look into yourself and judge yourself accordingly. And in my walking in line with that ideal, you know, and then, and I think without that check, you're subject, you know, it's easy to ignore the fact that you might be able to commit those things, but we live in a pretty easy, comfortable society. Like, what if, you know, what if we pictured yourself in the position of my grandparents, and then all of a sudden, you got the upper hand in some kind of a fight? What are you going to do? You know, you could, you'd definitely picture becoming evil in that situation. I think one thing faith in God can do is humble you before these kinds of complexities of the world, and humility is a way to avoid the slippery slope towards evil, I think. Humility that you don't know who the good guys and the bad guys are, and you defer that to sort of bigger powers to try to understand that. Yeah. I think there's a kind of, I mean, a lot of the atrocities were committed, but people who are very sure of themselves being good. Yeah, that's so true. It is sad that religion is, at times, used as a way to kind of just, as yet another tool for justification, which is a sad application of religion. It really is, it's so inherent and so natural in us to justify ourselves. It's really, it's really, I mean, I think it's almost, I mean, just understanding history, read history, it blows my mind that, and I'm super thankful that somehow, and this has been misused so much, but somehow this ideology arose that love your enemies, forgive, those that persecute you, and just on down the line, that something like that rose in the world into a position where we all kind of accept those ideals, I think, is really remarkable and worth appreciating. That said, a lot of that gets wrapped up in what you're taught, you know, what is so natural just becomes another instrument for tribalism or another justification for wrong, and so I, even myself, am self-conscious, sometimes talking about matters of faith, because I know when I'm talking about, I'm talking about something else, other than, you know, there's everybody within what someone else might think of when they hear me talking about it, so it's interesting. Yeah, I've been listening to Jordan Peterson talk about this. He has a way of articulating things, which are sometimes hard to understand in the moment, but when I, like, read it carefully afterwards, it starts to make more sense. I've heard him talk about religion, and God is a kind of base layer, like a metaphorical substrate from which morality of our sense of what is right and wrong comes from. And just our conceptions of what is beautiful in life, all these kinds of higher things that are like fuzzy to understand, that their religion helps create this substrate from which we as a species, like, as a civilization can come up with these notions, and without it, you are lost at sea. I guess for him, morality requires that substrate. Like you said, it's kind of fuzzy, so I've only been able to get clear vision of it when I live it. It's not something you profess, or anything like that, it's something that you take seriously and apply in your life, and when you live it, then there's some clarity there. But that it has to be kind of defined. It's like, and that's where you come in with the religion and the stories, because if you leave it completely undefined, I don't really know where you go from there. Actually, it's in the funny to speak to that. I did mushroom. Have you ever done those before? Mushroom, did? I've done them a couple of times, but one time was, didn't do that many the other time more. And I had a really profound experience in helping couch all this in the proper context for myself, so when I did it, I remember I was sitting on a swing and I could see my, everything was so blissful, except I could see my black hands on these chains on the swing, but everything else was blissful and kind of amorphous, and I could see the outline of my kids, and I could just feel the love for them, and I was just like, "Man, I just feel the love. It's so wonderful." At times, I would try to picture them, and I couldn't quite picture the kids, but I could feel the love. And then I started asking all the deepest and existential questions I could, and I felt like I just won another answer, another answer, and everything was being answered. And I felt like I was communing with God, whatever you want to say. But I was very aware of the fact that that communing was just peeling back the timeiest corner of the infinite, and it just dumped me with every answer I felt like I could have, and it kind of blew me away. So then I asked it, "Well, if you're the infinite, like, why did you reveal to me yourself? Why did you use the story of Jesus to reveal yourself?" And then that infinite amorphous thing had to somehow take form for us to be able to relate to it, it had to have some kind of a form, but whenever you create a form out of something, you're like boxing it in, and subjugating it to boundaries and stuff like that, and then that subject to pain, and subject to the brokenness, and all that, and I was like, "Oh, wow." But when I had that thought, then all of a sudden I could relate my dark hands on the chains to the rest of the experience, and then all of a sudden I could picture my children as the children, rather than this amorphous feeling of love. It was like, "Oh, there's a law on an all-time Zion," but then they were bounded, and then once they're bounded, you're subject to the death, and to the misunderstanding, and to all that, and I picture the amoeba or the cell, and then when it dies, it turns into an unformed thing. And so we need some kind of form to relate to, so instead of always just talking about God completely and tangibly, it kind of gave me a way to relate to it, and I think, "Oh, wow, that's really powerful to me," and putting it in a context that was applicable. But ultimately, God is sort of the thing that's formless, that is unbounded, but we humans need. I mean, that's the purpose of stories, they resonate with something, you know, but when you need the sort of the bounded nature, the constraints of those stories, otherwise we wouldn't be able to, like, can't relate to it. Yeah, yeah. And then when you look at the stories literally, or you just look at them just as they are, it seems silly, just too simplistic, and then that was always, you know, a lot of my family and loved ones and friends have completely left the faith, and I totally, I, on the way I get it. I understand, but I also really see the baby that's being thrown out at the bath water, and I want to cherish that in a way, I guess. And it's interesting that you say that the way to know what's right and wrong is, if to live it, sometimes it's, it's probably very difficult to articulate, but in the living of it, do you realize it? Yeah, and I'm glad you say that, because that's, I found a lot of comfort in that, because I feel somewhat inarticulate a lot of the times. I'm unable to articulate my thoughts, especially on these matters. And then you just think it's, I just have to, but I do have to, I can't live it. I can try to live it, you know, and then what I also, I'm struck with right away, is I can't, because you can't love everybody, you can't love your enemies, and you can't, but as placing that in front of you, as the ideal is so important to put like a, a check on your human instincts. things on your tribalism on your, I mean, you can very quickly like we're talking about with evil, you know, it can really quickly take its place in your life. I almost, you almost want to observe it happening, you know, but, and so I so much appreciate all the me striving. And that's where, you know, I grew up in a Christian family, so I had these like cliches that I didn't really understand, like a relationship with God. Like, what does that mean? But then I realized when I struggled with trying, with taking, I actually did try to take it seriously and struggle with what does it mean to live out a life of love in the world. But that's like a wrestling match, 'cause it's not that simple, it doesn't sound, it sounds good, but it's really hard to do. And then you realize you can't do it perfectly, but, but in that struggle, in that wrestling match is where I actually sense that relationship. And then it's, and that's where it kind of gains life and how that really, and that, I'm sure that relates to what Jordan Peterson is, you know, getting out in his, in his metaphor. - Yeah, in this, in this striving of the ideal, in this striving towards the ideal, you discover the how to be a better person. - One thing I noticed really tangibly on alone was that, because I had so many people that were close to me, kind of just leave it all together. I was like, I could do that, I actually understand why they do, or I could not. You know, I do have a choice. And so I had to choose at that point too, to maintain that ideal, and, 'cause I could add enough time on alone the one nice thing is you don't have any distractions, you have all the time in the world to go into your head. And I could play those paths out in my life, and not only in my life, but I feel like societally, and in generationally, like, I throw it all away, and everybody starts from square one, or we can try to redeem what's valuable in this, and wrestle with it, and just throw it in. And so I just chose that path. - Well, I do think it's the kind of wrestling match, 'cause I'm, you mentioned Gulagar Kapalgo. I'm very much a believer that we all have the capacity for good and evil. And striving for the ideal to be a good human being is not a trivial one. You have to find the right tools for yourself to be able to be the candle, as you mentioned before. - Oh, I got it. - And then for that, religion and faith can help. I'm sure there's other ways, but I think it's grounded in understanding that each human is able to be a really bad person, and a really good person. And that's like a choice, it's a deliberate choice, and it's a choice that's taking every moment and builds up over time. And the hard part about is you don't know. You don't always have the clarity, using reason to understand what is right and what is wrong. You have to kind of live it with humility and constantly struggle. 'Cause then yeah, you have to, you might wake up on a society where you're committing genocides, and you think you're the good guys. And I think you have to have the courage to realize you're not. It's not always obvious. - It isn't, man. - And all the history has the clarity to show who were the good guys and who were the bad guys. - Right, you have a wrestle with it. It's like that quote, the line between good and evil goes through the heart of every man, and we push it this way and that, and our job is to work on that within ourselves. - Yeah, that's the part. It's what I like. It's sort of the full quote talks about the fact that it moves and moves from the line moves, moment by moment, day by day. We have the freedom to move that line. So it's like, it's very deliberate thing. It's not like you're born this way, and it's it. - Yeah, I agree. - And especially in conditions where they're like worn piece, in the case of the camps, absurd levels of injustice in the face of all that. When everything's taken away from you, you still have the choice to be the candle, like the grandma's. By the way, the grandma's in like all parts of the world are like the strongest. - Down out some grandma seriously. - It's like, I don't know what it is. I don't know, they have this like wisdom that comes from patients and they've seen it all, they've seen all the bullshit of the people that come and gone, all the abuses of power, all of this. I don't know what it is. And they just keep going. - Right, right. It's just, yeah, it's so true. - What do you think of, as we've gotten a bit philosophical, what do you think of Warner Herzog's style of narration? I kind of wish he narrated my life. (laughing) - Yeah, it's amazing to listen to. - 'Cause that documentary is actually in Russian, I think he took a longer series, yeah. And then put narration over it. And then narration can transform like a story. - Yeah, he does an incredible job with it. I was, I'd probably seen the full version. Have you watched the four part full version? You should, like it, it's in Russian and so you'll get the fullness of that. And it's, he had to fit it into a two hour format. And so I think what you lose in those extra couple hours is worth watching. I think you'll like it, so. - Yeah, they always go, they always go pretty dark. (laughing) - He has a very dark sense about nature that is violence and it's murder. - I think that's important to recognize because it's really easy. I mean, especially with what I do and what I talk about and I see so much of the value in nature. Gosh, you know, I also see like a beautiful moose and a calf running around. And then next week I see the calf rip the shreds by wolves and you're just like, oh. And it's, it's not as, it's, it's, it's not as Russoian as we'd like to think, you know. It is, it, you know, things must die for things to live. Like you said, and that's just played out all the time and it's indifferent to you. Doesn't, doesn't care if you live or die and doesn't care how you die or how much pain you go through while you die. You know, it's like, it's pretty brutal. So that, it's interesting that he taps into that and I think it's valuable because it's easy to idealize in a way, but. - Yeah, the indifference is, I don't know what to make of it. There isn't a difference. It's a bit scary, it's a bit lonely. - Mm-hmm. - You're just a cog in the, in the machine of nature. - I think that doesn't really care for you. - Totally. I think that's the much that with a lot on, on that show is another part of the depths of your psychology delve into. But it, and that's when I thought like I could, I understand that deeply, but I could also choose to believe that for some reason it matters and then I could live like it matters and then I could see the trajectories and the kind of that was another fork in the road of my path, I guess. - What do you think about the connection to the animal? So in that, in that movie it's with the dogs and with you, it's the other domesticated, the reindeer. What do you think about that human animal connection? - In the context of that, in difference, it's interesting that we assign so much value and love and appreciation for these animals. And in some degree we get that back in our recipe. I think right now you just said the reindeer, I think of the one they gave me 'cause he was long and tall, so they named him Dleanie. And I just remember Dleanie and just watching him eat the leaves and go with me through the woods and trust him to take me through rivers and stuff. And it really is special. It's really enriching to have that relationship with an animal. And I think it also puts you in a proper context. One thing I noticed about the natives who live with those animals all the time is they relate to life and death a little more naturally. It feels, we feel really removed from it and it's particularly in urban settings. And I think when you interact with animals and you have to confront the life and the death of them and the responsibility of putting in a symbiotic relationship you have, I think it opens a little bit of awareness to your place in the puzzle and puts you in it rather than above it. - Have you been able to accept your own death? - I wonder, you wonder when it actually comes, what you're gonna think. But I did have, you know, I did have my dad to watch, confronted in his positive manner as you could. And that's a big advantage. And so I think when the time comes that I will be ready but I think that's easy to say when the time feels far off, you know, it'll be interesting if you got a cancer diagnosis tomorrow in stage four, it's like, be heavy. - Did you have a confront death while in survival situations? - Yeah. - When you're, I mean, you're in, I did have a time, at a time where I thought I might. I was going to die. I had a lot of situations that could have gone either way and a lot of injuries, broken ribs and this and that. But the one that I was able to be conscious through a slowly evolving experience that I thought I might die in was at one point we were siphoning gas out of a barrel and it was almost to the bottom and I was like, so it's sucking really hard to get the gas out. And then I didn't get the siphon going, so I like waited and then while I was sitting there, Europe put a new canister on top and put the hose in and I didn't see and so then I went to get another siphon and I went, sucked as hard as I couldn't, just instantly like a bunch of gas filled my mouth and I couldn't like spit it out, I had to go like that and I just full mouth full of gas that I just drank and I was just like, oh, like what is that going to do? And he and my friend were going to go on this fishing trip and so was I and I was just like, oh, I might just stay and I was in this little Russian village and they're like, all right. Well, Europe was like, man, I had a buddy that died doing that with diesel a couple of years ago. You know, man. And so anyway, I made my way to the hospital and by then, you know, you're really out of it because and then and it was they put me in this little dark room and almost sounds like unrealistic, but it's exactly how happened they put me in a little, a little room with the toilet and they gave me a cold, you know, galvanized bucket and then like, they just had a cold water faucet and they're just like, just jug water and puking into the toilet and just flesh your system as much as you can, but they only had a cold water faucets. I was just sitting there like chug chug chug chug chug until like you puke and chug until you puke and I'm in the dark and I and I was like, started a shiver because I was so cold, but I said to like, still like, get this thing up to me and chug until I puke. I was a picture and I remember reading, you know, about the Japanese torture where they would put a hose in somebody and then make them drink water until they puke. Anyway, the and I and I just felt so the only way I can express it, I felt so possessed, like demon because it's like I was just permeated with gas. I could feel it was coming out of my pores and I like wanted to like rip it out of me and I couldn't I'd like puke into the toilet and then couldn't see, but I was wondering if it was like rain by me and then and then I just remember like I could tell I was going out pretty soon and and I remember looking at my hands up close, you'd see him a little bit and I was like, oh, that's how dad's hands looked. You know, they were alive alive and then, you know, interesting as it are my hands going to look like that in a few minutes or whatever. So then I wrote down like to my family, what I thought, you know, like I love you all, like feel at peace and then I passed out and I woke up, but I didn't think I actually thought I, when I went to pass out, I thought it was there was a coin toss for me, so I really felt like I was confronting the end there. What are the harshest conditions to survive in on earth? Well, there are places that are just purely uninhabitable, but I think as far as places that you have a chance, maybe Greenland, I think of Greenland because I think of, you know, those Vikings that settled there were rugged, capable dudes and they didn't make it. But there are in you that, you know, natives that live up there, but that's a hard life, you know, in the populations that were growing very big because they're scraping by up there in your picture and the Vikings that did land there, you know, they just weren't able to quite adapt and the fact that they all died out is just a symbol to that must be a pretty difficult place. What would you say that's primarily because just the food sources are limited? Food sources are limited, but the fact that some people can live there means it is possible, you know, that they've figured out ways to catch seals and do things to survive, but it's by no means easier to be taken for granted or obvious, I think it's probably a harsh place to try to live. Yeah, it's fascinating, not just humans, but to watch how animals have figured out how to survive, of watching like a documentary on polar bears, like they just figure out a way and they get, and they've been doing it for generations and they figure out a way. They travel hundreds of miles to the water to get fat and they travel 100 miles for whatever other purpose. Because they want to stay on the ice, I don't know, but it's like there's a process and they figured out against the long odds and some of them don't make it. It's incredible. It's what a tough thing, man. You just think every little, every animal you see up in the mountains when I'm up in the woods is that thing just surviving through the winter scraping by it's tough, tough existence. What do you think it would take to break you, to say mentally, like if you're in a survival situation? I mean, I think it would have mentally, it would have to be, well, we talked about that earlier, I guess. The thing that I've confronted that I thought I knew was that if I knew I was the last person under. I wouldn't do it. I thought, but maybe you're right, maybe I wouldn't think I wasn't. But I think, you know, I can't imagine, I can't imagine where we're so blessed in the time we live, like, but I can't imagine what it's like to lose your kids, something like that. It was an experience that was so common for humanity, for so much of history. When I'd be able to endure that, I would have at least a legacy to look back on of people who did. But God forbid, I ever have to delve that deep. I could see that breaking somebody. And I mean, in your family history, there's people who have survived that, maybe that would give you hope. I mean, I think that's what I would have to somehow hold on to. But in a survival situation, there's very few things that I did. And I don't know what it would be, like, so I'm alone, like, I knew if I wasn't going to, ultimately, it is a game show. So it's like, ultimately, I wasn't going to kill myself out there. It's like, but so if I hadn't been able to procure food and I was starving to death, it's like, okay, I'm not going to go home. You know, but like, if you put yourself in that situation, but it's not a game show and I haven't been there to some degree, like, I will say I wasn't even close, like, I don't even know. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't gotten, it hadn't pushed my mental limit at all, yet, that would say, or on the scale. But that's not to say there isn't one. I know there is one in it, but I have a hard time. I know I've dealt with enough pain and enough discomfort in life that I know I can deal with that. I think, I think it gets difficult when you start to, when there's a way out and you start to wonder if you shouldn't take the way out as far as like, if there's no way out, I don't know what you're doing. Oh, that's interesting. I mean, that is, that is a real difficult battle when there's an exit, when it's easy to quit. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm doing this. That's a thing that, like, it gets louder and louder, the harder a thing is getting that point. It's not insignificant. Like, if you think you're doing, like, you know, if you think you're doing permanent damage your body, you would be smart to quit. You should just not do that on a, when it's not necessary, because health is kind of all you have in some regards. So, well, I don't blame anyone then they quit because of that reason, it's like a good, but if you're in a situation and you don't have the option to quit is knowing that you're doing permanent, that's not going to break, that won't break me, you know, you just have to get through it. I'm not sure what my mental limit would be outside of like the family suffering in the way that I described earlier. One is just you. It's you. All right. There's the limit. You don't know what the limit is. I don't know. Injuries, like physical stuff is annoying though. That could be. Isn't it weird? I mean, I can be, have a good life, happy life, and then you have a bad back or you have a headache. Yeah. And it's amazing how much that can overwhelm your experience. And again, that was something I saw in Dad. It was like, interesting. How can you find joy in that when you're just steeped in that all the time and people I'm sure listening, there's a lot of people that do and it's so, and talk about the cross to bear and the like hero journey to be like good for you for trying to find what you can, what your way through that. There was a lady in Russia, Tanya, and she had had cancer and recovered, but always had a pounding headache. And she was really joyful and really fun to be around. And I just like, man, I mean, you just have to have a really bad headache for today, know how much that throws a wrench in your existence. So all that to say, if you're not right now, suffering with blindness or a bad back or it's like, it's just kind of your blessings because it is all, it's so easy to have, it's amazing how complex we are, how well our bodies work and when they go out of whack, it can be very overwhelming and they all will at some point. And so that's an interesting thing to think ahead on how you're going to confront it when it does. - It keeps you humble, like you said. - It's inspiring that people figure out a way with migraines, that's a hard one though. You have headaches. - It's so hard. - Oh man, 'cause those can be really painful, and dizzying and all of this stuff. - Yeah, you're right. - That's inspiring, that's inspiring as you found out. - There's not nothing in that. I mean, you can find somehow you can tap into purpose even in that pain. I guess I would just speak from my dad's experience. I saw somebody do it, and I benefited from it. So thanks to him for seeing the higher calling there. - You were to note on your blog in 2012, you spent five weeks ish in the forest alone. I just thought it was interesting, 'cause this is in contrast to on the show alone, you're really alone, like you're not talking to anybody, and you realize that I remember at one point after several weeks had passed, I wondered into a particularly beautiful part of the woods and exclaimed out loud, wow. It struck me that it was the first time I had heard my own voice in several weeks with no one to talk to. What did your thoughts go into something like deep place? - Yeah, it's in my mental life is really active. You end up when you're that long alone, I tell you what you won't have is any skeletons in your closet that are still in your closet. That he will be forced to confront every person, even the one thing, if you've cheated on your wow, a while for some, you'll be confronted with the random dude you didn't say thank you to, and the issue that you didn't resolve, you know, all this stuff that was long gone will come up, and then you'll work through it, and you'll think how you should make it right, and I had a lot of those thoughts, while I was out there, and it was so interesting to see what you would just brush over, and then confront it because in our modern world, when you're always distracted, you just never ever gonna know until you take the time to be alone for a considerable amount of time. - Spent time hanging out with his skeletons. - Yeah, exactly. I recommend it. - So you said you guide people, what are your favorite places to go to? - Well, if I tell 'em, then is everybody gonna go? - I like how you actually have, it might be a YouTube video or your Instagram posts, where you give them a recommendation of like the best fishing hole in the world, and like you give detailed instructions how to get there, but it's like a journey of life, it's like a Lord of the Rings type of journey. - Right, right, no, I, I love the, I love the, like, in the, you know, there's a region that I definitely love in the States because it's special to me. I grew up there. Stuff like that, Idaho, Wyoming, Montana. Those are really cool places to me. I like the small town vibes. They're still maintaining and stuff there. - So it's like a mix of like mountains and forests. - Mm-hmm, but you know another really awesome place that blew my mind was New Zealand, that South Island of New Zealand was pretty incredible. As far as just stunning stuff to see, I was pretty high up there on the list, but there's all these places have such kind of unique, unique things about Canada became, like where they did alone. It's not typically what you'd say because it's fairly flat and cliffy and stuff, but it really became beautiful to me 'cause I could tap into the richness of the land, you know, or, or, you know, the fishing hole thing. It was like, that's a special little spot, you know, something like that, and you see the beauty, and then you start to see the beauty in the smaller scale, like all of that little meadow with that, it's got an orange and a pink and a blue flower right next to each other. That's super cool. You know, and there's a million things like that. - Have you been back there yet? Back to where the alone show was? - No, we're going back this summer. I'm going to take a guy to trip up there, take a bunch of people. We're really looking forward to the journey. - Good back to the room. - Being able to enjoy it without the pressure of-- - It's going to be fun. - What advice would you give to people in terms of how to be in nature? So like a hikes to take, or journeys to take out in nature, where it could take you to that place, where the business and the madness of the world can dissipate, and it can be with it. How long does it take for you for people usually to just like-- - Yeah, I think you need a few days, probably to tap into it, but you know, maybe you need to work your way there. Like, it's awesome to go out on the hike, go see some beautiful little waterfall, or go see some old tree, or whatever it is. You know, like, but I think just doing is it, that you know, everybody thinks about doing it. You just really do do it, like go out, and then plan to go overnight. Don't be so afraid of all the potentialities that you delay it inevitably. You know, it's actually one of the things that I've enjoyed the most about guiding people, is giving them the tools so that now they have this ability into the future, you can go out and feel like, I'm gonna pick this spot on the map and go there, and that's a tool in your toolkit of life that is I think really valuable, because I think everybody should spend some time in nature, or everything. It's been pretty proven healthy. - Yeah, I mean, camping is great. And solo, okay, she has to do it solo. It's pretty cool. - Yeah, that's cool you did. - Yeah, it's cool. And I recorded stuff, though, that helped. - Oh, good, yeah. - So you sit there and you record the thoughts. Actually, for having to record the thoughts, I had to like, it forced me to really think through what I was feeling to convert the feelings into words, which is not a trivial thing, because it's mostly just feeling. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - You feel a certain kind of way. (laughs) - That's interesting. You know, I felt like the way I met my wife was like, you know, we met at this wedding, and then I went to Russia, basically. And we kept in touch via email for, you know, that year. And a similar thing. It was really interesting to be, have to be so thoughtful and purposeful about what you're saying and saying. Like, I think it's probably healthy, good thing to do. - What gives you hope about this whole thing we've gone on? The future of human civilization? - If we talk about gratitude earlier, like, look at what we have now. That could give you hope. Like, look at what the world we're in. We live in in such an amazing time with, you know. - Buildings and roads. - And food security. - And, you know, I lived with the natives and I thought to myself a lot. Like, I wonder if not everybody would choose this way of life because it is, there's something really rich about just that small group, your direct relationship to your needs, all that. But with the food security and the health, you know, modern medicine, things that we now have, that we take for granted, but that I wouldn't choose that life if we didn't have those things. Otherwise, you're gonna watch your family starve to death or things like that. - We, so we have so much now which should lead us to be hopeful while we try to improve because there's definitely a lot of things wrong, you know, but I guess it's, there's a lot of room for improvement and I do feel like we're sort of walking on a nice edge, you know. But I guess that's the way it is. - As the tools we build become more powerful. - Yeah, it's actually, it's that night's edge which is getting sharper and sharper. I've talked, yeah, I like arguing with my brother about that sometimes he takes the more positive view and I'm like, ooh, I mean, it's great, we've done great, but man, more and more people with nuclear weapons and more, it's just gonna take one mistake with the more power. - I think there's something about the sharpness of the knife's edge. It gets humanity to really like focus and like step up and not screw it up. There's just like you said with the cold, going out into the extreme cold, it like wakes you up. And I think the same thing when you go to weapons is just like wakes up humanity like this. - Everybody was half asleep. - Exactly. And then we keep building more and more powerful things to make sure we stay awake. - Yeah, exactly, stay awake. See what we've done, be thankful for it, but then improve it. And then of course, I appreciated your little post the other week when you said you wanted some kids, you know, that's a very direct way to relate to the future and to have hope for the future. - I can't wait. And I hope they also get a chance to go out and the wilderness with you at some point. - I would love it. - That'd be fun. - Open invite, let's make it happen. I got some really cool spots on it. Have in mind to take you. - Awesome, let's go. Thank you for talking to me brother. Thank you for everything you stand for. - Thanks man. - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Jordan Jonas. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me try a new thing where I try to articulate some things I've been thinking about whether prompted by one of your questions or just in general. If you'd like to submit a question, including an audio and video form, go to lexfremend.com/amay. Now, I want me to comment on the attempt to the assassination of Donald Trump on July 13th. First, as I've posted online, wishing Donald Trump good health after an assassination attempt is not a partisan statement, it's a human statement. And I'm sorry if some of you want to categorize me and other people into blue and red bins, perhaps you do it because it's easier to hate than to understand. In this case, you shouldn't matter, but let me say once again that I am not right wing nor left wing, I'm not partisan. I make up my mind one issue at a time, and I try to approach everyone and every idea with empathy and with an open mind. I have and will continue to have many long-form conversations with people both on the left and the right. Now onto the much more important point. The attempted assassination of Donald Trump should serve as a reminder that history can turn on a single moment. World War I started with the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, and just like that, one moment in history, on June 18th, 1914, led to the death of 20 million people, have a whom or civilians. If one of the bullets in July 13th had a slightly different trajectory, where Donald Trump would end up dying in that small town in Pennsylvania, history would write a new dramatic chapter, the contents of which all the so-called experts and pundits would not be able to predict, a very well could have led to a civil war. Because the true depth of the division in the country is unknown, we only see the surface turmoil on social media and so on, and it is events like the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, where we, as a human species, get to find out what the truth is of where people really stand. The task then is to try and make our society maximally resilient and robust as such destabilizing events. The way to do that, I think, is to properly identify the threat, the enemy. It's not the left or the right that are the quote "enemy." Extreme division itself is the enemy. Some division is productive. It's how we develop good ideas and policies, but too much leads to the spread of resentment and hate that can boil over into destruction on a global scale. So we must absolutely avoid the slide into extreme division. There are many ways to do this and perhaps it's a discussion for another time. But at the very basic level, let's continuously try to turn down the temperature of the partisan bickering and more often celebrate our obvious common humanity. Now let me also comment on conspiracy theories. I've been hearing a lot of those recently. I think they play an important role in society. They ask questions that serve as a check on power and corruption of centralized institutions. The way to answer the questions raised by conspiracy theories is not by dismissing them with arrogance and feigned ignorance, but with transparency and accountability. In this particular case, the obvious question that needs an honest answer is, "Why did the secret service fail so terribly in protecting the former president?" The story we're supposed to believe is that a 20-year-old, untrained, loner was able to outsmart the secret service by finding the optimal location on a roof for a shot on Trump from 130 yards away, even though the secret service sniper spotted him on the roof 20 minutes before the shooting and did nothing about it. This looks really shady to everyone. Why does it take so long to get to a full accounting of the truth of what happened? And why is the reporting of the truth concealed by corporate government speak? Look at the bullshit. What happened? Who fucked up and why? That's what we need to know. That's the beginning of transparency. And yes, the director of the US Secret Service should probably step down or be fired by the president, and not as part of some political circus that I'm sure is coming, but as a step towards uniting and increasingly divided and cynical nation. Conspiracy theories are not noise, even when they're false. They are a signal that some shady corrupt secret bullshit is being done by those trying to hold on to power, not always, but often. Transparency is the answer here, not secrecy. If we don't do these things, we leave ourselves vulnerable to singular moments that turn the ties of history. Empires do fall. Civil wars do break out, and tear apart the fabric of societies. This is a great nation, the most successful collective human experiment in the history of Earth, and letting ourselves become extremely divided, risks destroying all of that. So please ignore the political pundits, the political grifters, clickbait media, outrage, fueling politicians on the right and the left who try to divide us, or not so divided, or in this together. Because I've said many times before, I love you all. This is a long comment, I'm hoping not to do comments this long in the future and hoping to do many more, so I'll leave it here for today. But I'll try to answer questions and make comments on every episode. If you would like to submit questions, like I mentioned, including audio and video form, go to electrima.com/aMA. And now let me leave you with some words from Ralph Waldo Emerson, adopt the pace of nature. Her secret is patience. Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]