435 When someone decides to leave your church (exit interviews for members)

The Hard Reality of Members Leaving Your Church G'day, I'm Scott Sanders. Speaker 2 I'm Derek Henner. Speaker 1 Welcome to the One Thing a podcast is designed to give you. 1 solid practical tip. A gospel centred ministry. This is a tough episode today. I don't know if we can boil it down to 1 solid practical tip. I think it's going to be lots of different tips. We're going to be talking about when someone decides to leave your church, how do you do good exit interviews for members? What does it look like to get a sense of the reasons people leave? I'm going to be pushing into some vulnerable stuff with Derek. Canada Day. It could be tears. And so I've got the Kleenex at the ready. Now The One Thing is brought to you by Reach Australia. We'd love to see thousands of healthy, evangelistic, multiplying churches all across Australia. But for now you've pressed play on another episode of The One Thing when someone decides to leave your church. Exit interviews for members. Speaker 3 Today's podcast is brought to you by Lending Hands Mortgage Brokers. Are you tired of explaining ministry income to banks? Or maybe you just want someone who understands ministry life to help plan your finances. Lending Hands Mortgage brokers have helped over 30 ministers and gospel workers secure homes and save money on their mortgages, and we'd love to do the same for you. Whether you're looking to buy a home or just want advice tailored to your ministry plans, they're here to help. Visit lendinghands.com dot AU to organise a chat on how they can support you in stewarding your finances so you can focus on ministering to your people. And now back to the podcast. Speaker 1 So Derek, I want to start there with with a bit of vulnerability here. Speaker 2 On your. Speaker 1 No, no, you're on you, on you, on you cause 'cause I've never LED a church. And so I've, I've, I've felt, I feel it when people leave, you know, I, I get, I get frustrated and get annoyed depending on, you know, depending on some of those reasons. But as a pastor, how do you how do you reflect on, you know, on the reality that people, you know, people will leave your leave your church positively, negatively and everything in between? Yeah, help pastor the pastors as we as we kick off this episode before we get practical. Speaker 2 It's hard. It's really hard. I think obviously depending on your relationship with them, yeah, how well you've connected with them and the reasons where they're leaving, all those kind of things. It's hard like on the positive end of of things, it can be even really hard when when people who are leaving for good reasons are going because you'll feel they're lost and you should, I think that's right and proper at all these points, you should feel the pain of that disconnection this side of the new creation. So it's hard when people leave for good reasons, but you've got to embrace and work out how to do that well. And we'll talk about that, but it's hard. You know, it can be particularly hard when people leave for reasons that you either don't understand or in, in my case, all too often when you make mistakes with stuff, it impacts real people on the ground and they end up removing themselves from that body. That's really. Speaker 1 Hard and honourable hard. Speaker 2 For them, that's really where I'd like to focus, but say for past world it is hard for you reconciling that mistakes you make break relationships. Speaker 1 Sometimes. Embracing Positive Departures, Facing Negative Ones So what does it look like to process that? So before we get into practical stuff, what does it look like as a pastor just to process people leaving for good and bad reasons? How did how did you do it as a as a planter and then as a pastor of a church that was growing and and established? Speaker 2 Yeah, the I always wanted to when people were leaving for for good reasons. We had a bit of a termite because we're in a, in a university kind of context and it was young adults and they were moving. So we wanted to celebrate as much as we could those times when people were being sent out from us, not necessarily going on the mission field, but moving on just so it, it normalised the fact that that people could, would leave for good reason. So there wasn't, they weren't here one week and gone the other. So we did want to do it from the, the front. Sometimes they, that got tricky when people were leaving on a regular basis. But we want to, you want to normalise that and do it really well. I've seen some churches do that just an incredibly helpful way, particularly again, in university contacts where people are often leaving at the end. So there is a sending out moment that they want to have that's really positive, that's really powerful, allows people to grieve but celebrate the same, OK. Speaker 1 We we're not interested in the positive, though. What about the negative? When I'm talking, I'm talking about when someone leaves and they're like, I really don't like your preaching. And I think you made a bad call in how we do in, in how we do mission. And this is not what this is not what I was expecting with the church plan, you know, and you promised. Yeah. And I'm leaving. So I want to go. I want because, because this is this is I think where where we actually get upended. Not, not with the, you know, So, you know, we're going to go to South Brisbane. We're moving to Logan and we're going to be part of a church plan there and there and we're so excited. We're going to bring our skills and gifts and but what about what about the hard? Speaker 2 Person also negative. Yeah, look again. They, they're the, they're the sleepless nights for me. And and still it's interesting, even even after all these years, it's been like 85 years since I planted a church. But even after all these years, some of them still like the barb's still there. The, the, the, the wound still feels quite, quite raw with that. And again, it's always a combination 1 of what did I do wrong? What could I have done differently in those moments? But realising, you know, there's other factors at play within that. I think the, the hardest thing in that was often with people who you felt like were with you in, in there. There were people who came in even though you were clear about here's who we are, here's where we're at, here's what it looks like to join us. You, you, you kind of get a sense that they weren't really on board with that so that when they leave it, it doesn't sting quite as much. Speaker 1 You've done all the you've done all the processes, you follow the pathway, You've listened to the episode of the pathway. No. And they still haven't got not. Speaker 2 Quite how I would put it, but that's what you've done because there is a clarity that that moment of the vision casting at the start of the newcomers. We say here's who we are. We'd love you to join us, but you, you would be joining us as a community on this basis that helps people self select in and out. But it's the people who I think have been in with you who were on board or you thought was so on board who the relationship deepens. It's when they just disappear. And that can happen in a number of ways. It can happen slowly over time being pulled or it can just, you know, be, you know, like a very painful band aid where they just, that is really hard to think for the whole community when that happens. Speaker 1 So we've talked about the different reasons. Why Churches Need Exit Processes and Data Tracking They can be good ones. People are heading off just in the ordering course of life. We can be sending in to be part of a church plan or involved in mission. People are just moving houses. That's just the reality. You can be in a city context where there's lots, there's lots of turnover, or even in a suburban context where there's where there's turnover. But there's also the reasons where people are just not happy, you know, happy at church. Yes. I think two other reasons that I want to push into one is there's there's not, there's not the programmes for my kids. Yeah. And I said there's not a youth programme. And then the other one is, is church discipline. So we're actually, we're actually removing someone from our church family. There's been a, a significant issue as well. So there are two other places and I reckon, I reckon they're both other episodes, you know, they're both got other episodes, particularly the church discipline. Yep. OK, so let's, let's get quite practical. Why, why is it that churches often don't have a process for people leaving church? You know, when we've got a process for people joining church, You know, we're, we're quite thoughtful about the start of the pathway. You know, why don't we have a process for people leaving or. Speaker 2 Now, again, just because you've been so negative in this conversation, are you talking about a process for people when they're leaving in an unhappy way? Speaker 1 But in both, in both senses, yeah, yeah. Oh, So I think an an exit process. Yeah, both positively and negative. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I think on the on the +1, I think sometimes it might just be a having a deliberate organised approach to that. I think that's often why it doesn't happen. So we'll, you know, it'll be ad hoc. I think we need to be, we probably need to be more thoughtful in that, particularly in certain contexts. Speaker 1 Yeah. So what does it, what does a exit, an exit interview look like? I mean, it's, it's a better way to probably describe it. What does? Yeah. What does a formal exit interview process? Speaker 2 Look like, oh, you're so OK, you're pushing into there. Not the public acknowledgement there, no. Speaker 1 No, that that would be. Speaker 2 The private conversation, yeah. Speaker 1 And even just doing the work of people as people leave, just just noting, yeah, a person unhappy with my preaching. Speaker 2 Why do you keep coming back to those goals? What have you heard? Speaker 1 I've just there, there could often be a reason, you know. Yeah, but but actually putting on your, I guess your pathway analysis, the people at the exits and actually understanding well, why is it that they've gone? OK, this person's moved to a church plan. You know, we didn't have a youth programme. Married, you know, married and, you know, married and moved, for example, having an awareness of that can be a really useful conversation probably at the end of the year. OK, let's look at the people who have left church. Is there something systemically going, you know, going on in church so we can solve or is again, is this just in the normal ordinary course of life? You know, again, I would, I would say to a church later, people kind of leave probably, you know, 1010% you're sort of leaving percentages about 10%. And sometimes that can be greater. You know, you could be in a town where, you know, a local business has been shut down. That's a significant employer or you know, there's been a significant change in shift. It could be, you know, university populations moving. So there, there are some kind of greater than 10% moments that you might have in your, in your, in your setting, in your context. But kind of if you hit that sort of number of 10% leaving, it can be really useful. But actually getting that data and having a look at every 12 months and going, OK, is there a systemic issue that we need? You know, people didn't get into small groups or you know, people weren't clear on the expectations of church. You can actually go back into your pathway and go, OK, maybe we can change and shift some things to reduce that leaving percentage. Speaker 2 Yeah, couple of things. 1 is people who live unhappily often won't give you a reason. Identity in Christ: Responding to Criticism, Not Reacting Yeah, good. Or the reason they give you won't be the actual reason that it is. So just be aware of that. So when you note these things down a piece of paper you're working with, you're working with gut feelings, sometimes imperfect data to say that. Secondly, I'd say on this when when people are leaving as well with this, the the presenting problem that you might be observing, you want to be aware of, but you don't want to react to too much. And so it's an awareness without being reactive to every single moment. And so you you are trying to work out within the scope of these. If we're talking about the challenging the the times people leave for bad reasons, I want to be aware of what my role is 1 in speaking into before people get to that point. So if people, if people's reason you've given it a couple of times is my terrible preaching on that. No, no, no. It's. Speaker 1 Obviously, it's obviously a sensitive point. Derek, you're a fantastic preacher and I would happily send him to your preaching every every week. I love I love your preaching, but it was interesting. I had a conversation with the pastor. It was someone left the church because he the the the accusation, or at least the felt the felt wound was you preached too much about hell yeah. And it was really, he had a great had a great conversation where he actually put his sermons through ChatGPT and asked them, you know, asked, asked it or whatever it is the AI to assess how often he talked about hell. And it gave me some really helpful feedback. You know, no, you don't. Here's how many times you preach about it. You always preach about it in the context of grace. Here's the passages that you go to. And he kind of concluded, OK, actually don't speak about it too much. But her leaving and you know, like as you say, the overreaction to yeah, you preach too much about hell. OK, I'm not going to, you know, is I'm not going to preach about it at all. Yes, but he's but he's helpfully kind of done that kind of reflective work of of thinking through. OK, you know, do do I or don't I? So I love. Speaker 2 The fact that that this person asked that question, I do love that fact. My nervous is about that approach and this is just, I don't know the situation, but my nervousness would be reacting too much even to the ChatGPT, as much as I love ChatGPT, reacting to that 'cause if it came back and said, Oh yeah, I think you're speaking a little bit too much about hell. I think what, how does it know how much I speak about that? But also it doesn't understand the context I'm in. Speaker 1 OK, we're not. We're not. We're not gonna get into a context. Speaker 2 About AI, No, no, no, no, but no. Get it? Speaker 1 But he did. The reflection is what I'm. Speaker 2 That's great, but so take out of AI then? If I've had five believe and they've all said the same thing, Hey, you speak too much about hell. Could. Speaker 1 Be actually, I don't. I don't speak about it enough. I need to keep speaking. Speaker 2 Well, it could be, but it could be actually there's a contextual reason I do that. Yeah. And so I'm actually just going to, I've, I've weighed it up. I've tried to be objective, I've asked people, I've even asked Chachibeti. I've weighed all these things up. And I actually think under God, my responsibility is to continue to speak about this. And that's just, you just need to own that thing. So it's being aware of those things without being every active. I think the the last thing for me in this moment is for pastors to work out how to have this, their identity ministry centred not on the comings and goings of the people within the church. Yeah, they're these sheep that you made. But my identity is not on the size of my church. It's not on how the feedback will give me about my preaching. It's who I am in Christ and I need to within that while listening to wise counsel around me, understand what my responsibility is and how I carry that out. That's good and not be reactive. I just think that's that is the hardest thing. It's that's hard. I found that so hard thinking most people who I love dearly, who I think I had a sense that I I made a mistake at points with as well. And I think what could I have done differently? How does it not crush me? I had to grapple with that because the points, it did feel crushy, you know, I just felt like a comply. I thought, well, I'm just, I'm not cut out to do this. Yeah. Speaker 1 So is there a particular time you know, and, and place it can be helpful. So just just being aware of your own emotions and feelings potentially in, you know, in that moment. It might might be helpful to do that exit interview a a couple of months later. But an exit interview, what's a good one look like? I'd I'd argue it's a it's another discipleship moment. Yeah. You're discipling someone as they leave your church. Yeah, I think it a good outcome is that they find find themselves in a church where they can continue to be a gifted, you know, serving, you know, loving member and and and a part of a new church. So in that in that moment of finding out, you know, what reasons elite are causing to leave church, how do you disciple them? You know, well in that even if they're leaving for bad reasons, how do you love them? How do you care for them? See it as a discipleship moment. Yeah. Thoughtful Goodbyes and Inter-Church Communication One of the questions that I think a lot of people often ask is, well, should we say goodbye to them publicly? And I think this is a particular challenge of a city church where, like, if you did that every week, you'd be kind of having, oh, yeah, you know, you'd be having a farewell service. Oh, we say goodbye to the Hannahs, you know, and they're off to, you know, the suburbs again, where someone else wants a backyard and a pool and they can't live in a terrace anymore. No longer do they. Can they put up with mould and two bedrooms for example? I'm just I wasn't pushing into any areas. Speaker 2 You've given me some very personal face, yeah. Speaker 1 But but yeah, should you say goodbye to people publicly? How do you decide? You know when do you you know when do you decide to say some you know to to some and and others What? What's your thoughts on it? Just give a shit. Speaker 2 Look, there's a second. Yeah, 10 seconds. There's a practical thing, as you said, you just can't do it all the time for everyone generally. But there is a, there's a community thing. I think I want to see the church as a family. And so sometimes there are moments where you just need to acknowledge. I'm talking about the tricky situations here. You just need to acknowledge stuff actually. And it's I think you need to call people even when they might be leaving for reasons that you disagree with, you find hard. They need to deal with that in a mature, godly way as well. So they need to possibly, if it's a, if you think actually it's in order to dispel rumours, in order not to bring the gospel into disrepute. There will be circumstances where people who are leaving for reasons you think aren't great, you may need to get up the front and say and interview them, pray for them. The hope is that in this moment, whether it's a one on one conversation or whether it's from the front, as you said, the hope is that this person, individual, this family find themselves in another body of believers where they can mature. And whatever this side of new creation, you know, whatever, for whatever reason didn't work, that's the hope. Speaker 1 So with every exit, there's an entry into another church. Hopefully, you know, the hope is that we actually see someone land in a church. Should should you call the pastor of the church they're going to you know who's who's responsible? You know, when you when you have someone who is exit a church, should you call the other church and say, hey, you know, Derek's just turned up in my church. You're right. Here's a sellout. He's, you know, he's wanting the big house and he's left the city and we had a great mission. Speaker 2 He had his own preaching, so he left his own church. Yeah. Speaker 1 Can you tell me, you know, can you tell me is he going to be tricky? Yeah. Speaker 2 He is tricky, he is tricky. Speaker 1 But yeah, who, whose responsibility is it? And in some sense, it's probably you're going to say, well, it depends. Because I think it'd be quite helpful if you know, someone's going to another church to say, hey, this person sitting in that church, I'd really love you to look out for them, you know, welcome them. You know, they're, they've been a great blessing to our church. Yeah. I'll be with you as well. Yeah. But there's 1001 things to do in the week. Speaker 2 Yeah, there are, There are, But I think how you phrase it there, I think this is an important thing, isn't it? Because this is the, the caring of souls we're we're interested in and the handing over hopefully of, of from one ship to another. I think there is a, a place to do that to maybe connect and call and say, hey, they're thinking about coming up. You you might not know where they're going, but if you do, I think that's good. I think you want to be very careful what you're saying in that conversation. I don't think you want to pollute the waters going over for them. I don't think you want to encourage gossip. I think you need to be really careful even though the person, if I was on the other end that was even saying the handers are coming over. Speaker 1 Mark's a great preacher. Speaker 2 Mike, you would be. Speaker 1 Get him on at least once a month. Speaker 2 My questions would be if not. Speaker 1 Particularly good with new. Speaker 2 Testament epistles. Great. My questions would be, if I was that, why are they leaving? What should I be aware of? Is there anything to pay attention to? And I think if I'm being asked that question and I'm the person who's been hurt, I've got to be really conscious of what I say. I think you just got to be really careful. It's it's, it's such a tricky area. Speaker 1 So what about helping the people who stay? Building a Culture of Sending and Supporting Your Flock So again, the Hannahs leave my Home group like they were critical. You know, like they've LED it for the last four years. I'm really feeling the loss. And now I'm actually Derek's handed over leadership to me. How do we, how do we care for those who are left behind? It was a coup. Speaker 2 It was a coup. He was wanting to get rid of me. Yeah, well. Speaker 1 I'm using these for hypothetical, just those listening in. I've never done church with Derek. Speaker 2 Ever, Yeah, yeah, relationally is the answer. How do you do that relationally? And so whether it's on a one, on one basis, I talk to the the people in the Group One on one and say I know this person's left. Do you have any questions in order to shut down gossip, in order to not pretend the problem doesn't exist, but to help people. And again, this is the role to help bring the gospel to bear on this moment. It's it's a group when people we love leave, it's hard when we don't really understand the reasons or we disagree with the reasons. What does it look like to to behave in a godly way in this circumstance for us? So whether you do that on a one on one basis, a group basis up at the front with church, it's got to be relational, has to bring the gospel to bear on that moment. Speaker 1 Good. OK, last, last question, in terms of helping people leave, leave, well, how do you set up a culture where where that's just a, you know, a normal part of what we do as as church life, you know, so JD Greer has a great book, you know, gaining by losing. So that mentality of, you know, my job is to is to raise people up and and send them out. And I want to be sending out my best. How Yeah. How do you set up a culture where that's expected, that's celebrated and and loved? Speaker 2 I think you do that in exactly the same way that you you build a community that loves one another. I think you bring the gospel to bear on this group of people in such a way that they are committed to loving one another, committed to loving the things that God loves as well. So we grieve the fact rightly, you know, people go out from it, but we don't resent the fact that people go out from us when they're going to do the things that God loves. Even when people leave for bad reasons, we grieve the fact that people go out from us, but we understand because we're broken, that this is what it looks like to live this side of the new creation. And so we deal with grace, generosity for the good of the gospel. So I think as much as we can, speaking into what it means to be the people of God together, if people are formed in that way when they're together, we, we hope by God's Spirit we will behave in that way when they depart from us. But that's my we have to preach the the the reality of the gospel and the church when we have people that we shepherd in order that they behave in that way when they go out from us. Final Wisdom and Resources for Church Departures So, Derek, what's the one thing you want to say when someone decides to leave your church? Speaker 2 One is I get two things. One is we are not defined as leaders by those in our church, but by the gospel on Christ. We have to remember that that understanding that here's my second thing. It frees us up to deal with people graciously and generously, even when we might feel personally attacked, even when we might feel like we've we've made mistakes. Understanding who we are across allows us to deal with people and a whole community with graciousness in those moments. Speaker 1 Awesome, thanks Derek, really appreciated, you know, your openness today and and pushing into some hard stuff. Really, really used to be praying, you know, praying for praying for those who have left our church as well as those who are in our church as well. So just opening up the tool tool box couple of resources. We talked about the book gaining by losing. So in that book, JD Greer unpacks 10 sort of Plumb limes that you can use to reorient your church around God's mission. So having that culture at the kind of the end of the pathway of, of sending people out, not only to proclaim the gospel, but also sending people out to other churches so they can be a blessing as well. I'll put in the show notes a link to some episodes on, on difficult conversations because I think often, often this leaving, leaving conversation can be a difficult conversation. So just doing the hard work of putting yourself in the other person's shoes and understanding actually what's going on below the surface. So there's an iceberg of, you know, values and experiences and, and reasons that you're potentially only just seeing, you know, at the service level. And, and then there's the those identity questions, which are, which are harder to kind of surface. So really useful for, you know, particularly if someone's leaving with a conflict to perhaps even do that. Maybe, maybe you won't get the opportunity to have that conversation with them, but it could be a really helpful exercise to to reflect as someone leaves. Speaker 2 I've got one. There's a, a really good book called The Leaders Journey by Harrington Taylor and Creech just on me as a leader and how I yeah, what, what that looks like. I found that incredibly helpful, just to understand a little bit more about what it looks like for me to process and understand being in pastoral ministry. Speaker 1 Well, if you don't have an exit interview process, this could be a really useful episode to wrestle with with your team and just put, you know, a simple one pager down. If you don't have a process in your church as well where you're regularly recording kind of reasons for for, you know, the people leave so you can think back and reflect on, say the last 12 months to think through systemic issues, then you should probably start doing that as well. If you think this is helpful episode, it'd be great if you could pass it around as well. I'm Scott Sanders. Speaker 2 I'm Derek Henner. Speaker 1 Chat soon.