#434 - FBI Occult Expert on Breakaway Civilizations & Charles Manson Aerospace Link | Walter Bosley

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I first heard about you through Catherine Austin Fitz, I believe, and she was talking about this secret breakaway civilization, and you read about this Nimza group, which was like the original, or like this is that you write about the origins of this speculative breakaway civilization. You know, it emerged in a funny way for me. I had been aware of the 1890s airship mystery for years. You know, most of us have, if you're into UFOs at all, or any weird stuff. I had heard about this mysterious Sonora aerial club. From a friend of mine, Greg Bishop, you probably have heard of him. Sounds familiar. He's written an excellent book called, years ago called "Project Beta" about the Paul Benoit's affair. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wasn't familiar with that book, but I'm aware of the Paul Benoit's affair. Oh, yes, yeah. I highly recommend it. That's the book to read on that issue. When I was researching my empire of the wheel book, I'm doing the research for that, a gentleman's name popped up. He was arrested on the train during the middle of all this mystery. Now, this was in 1915, several mysterious deaths were occurring in San Bernardino, and it looked like there may have been a serial killer or some sociopath on the loose. And this young 24-year-old man by the name of Frank Rosasco was arrested on the train, and he's committed to the county hospital. He's arrested first and then committed because he's diagnosed as being dangerously paranoid. So, here you have this potential murder mystery. You have this young man arrested on the train because he's having a nervous breakdown. He's losing his mind and he's saying, "Oh, I didn't hurt her. I didn't hurt her." And there had been a woman found dead, which is the center of the mystery. Well, a couple of days after he was arrested, the papers report that he was released into the custody of these unidentified friends from Sonora. And I thought, "Okay, let's check his name and see if they came from Sonora, Mexico, nothing there." Then I quickly discovered that the name was Italian, not Spanish. And long story short, I discovered that he's from a very prominent Italian ranching family in Sonora, California, the home of the Sonora Arrow Club, which is at the heart of the airship mysteries. And I thought, "How is the airship mystery connected to this? 1915?" 1915? 1915. And so I made a note of that and I dug into the Sonora Arrow Club lore, so to speak, because no one's quite sure that we only have one source on the Sonora Arrow Club. And that's a gentleman by the name of Charles Dell Schau. He was a German immigrant who, by his own story, was sent here to the States to go to California and report on this group of other German immigrants who had settled in California, who were dabbling with flying machines. The problem is, this was in the 1850s, the decade before the U.S. Civil War, flying machines. This was Dell Schau's story. And he claimed that he was sent on behalf of an organization based in, I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was Brandon Berg in Germany, called Nimza NYMZA, spelled with all capital letters like an acronym. And he's our original source on this word, on this group, that he claimed was headquartered in Germany, and they were overseeing, and maybe in some cases investors, in various groups that were dabbling in flight and other exotic technologies, which he did not elaborate on, because he was according to his own story, only sent here to go to California and investigate these guys. Well, Dell Schau on behalf of Nimza. On behalf of Nimza, the mysterious group. Now, remember Germany back then was still multiple, I think, 48 states. They weren't a unified Germany, they were, you know, the Prussians, so-called Prussians were driving unification. So that was Germany at that time. So he goes to California, he ends up really liking these guys. And finally, and he reports on witnessing these flying machines working. They're not balloons. And he describes how their system and their process works. Eventually, the German office, they send a representative directly from there whom Dell Schau and the other members of the club referred to as that Prussian officer, some military guy, and nobody liked him in the club, because the message from Nimza in Germany was we want you to design and build these things for military application. And these guys didn't want to. So why was this German group of people doing this stuff in California? They had, see, that's part of the mystery, is Dell Schau tells us some of their names, but we still don't know their backgrounds. The leader of the scenario club was a guy named Peter Menis. And he, after this Prussian officer comes from Germany, and they kind of have, kind of a confrontation with him, because they're not going to build these for military application. The Prussian officer is going to go back to Germany and report on this. And not long after that, Peter Menis reportedly, according to Dell Schau, dies when his flying machine, they called them arrows, AERO, so on this moment, explodes in a fiery crash and told that Peter Menis dies. There's reason to suspect that maybe he faked his death, and then after that the club breaks up. And that's it. And we first heard about this. Dell Schau started writing about this in 1893 or four. And we would never have known about this story had a gentleman by the name of Pete Navarro not found Dell Schau's journals and illustrations in a, in a, a junk shop in 1971. Pete Navarro. Pete Navarro, he's since passed. I exchanged a couple of emails with him and he's our original source on Dell Schau. In 1971, he found these books, several books bound with string, and it had just several of these books contain hundreds of these sketches and paintings and drawings, elaborate drawings of the arrows both actually built that actually flew in those that were proposed. Where are these journals now? What's interesting is they're kind of dispersed out, but we know that for a while anyway and maybe still the demonel. Is this it? That's there's an example. Yeah, that's an example. He drew this. He drew all of these that you see like this. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And the demonel organization, who if you know your JFK assassination milieu, the demonels are in the mix there. I've never heard of demonel. Oh, yeah. They bought several of the books back in the 70s and they were keenly interested in Dell Shale's stuff. And they bought his original handwritten journals. Oh, yeah, they bought several of them. Are there any photos of the actual handwritten journals online or anything? Yeah. Actually, I, one of the pictures that I sent that shows a bound book with a tan cover, that's a photograph of just one of the many books. Oh, wow. And yeah, a gentleman by the name of Stephen Romano who owns the Romano Gallery in New York, his get there's an example of one of them and there were several of these. But as you can see, they're just stacked full of these illustrations. And the Stephen Romano Gallery has published an absolutely beautiful, oversized book of several samples from the Dell Shale books. It's really fantastic. Find some more images of this, Steve. And he shared with me some, requesting me not to publish them, but he shared with me some of Dell Shale's private diary pages. And why would he ask you not to publish them? Because at the time, I don't think he had permission. He wanted to know, because Dell Shale wrote a lot of stuff in code. He used this weird personal code that a few people have worked on decoding it, but we're not quite sure. Pete Navarro probably did the most on the decoding of it, but we're not sure what most of it says. And Dell Shale produced these books between, I think, 1893 or '94 in 1923 when he died. So that he didn't emerge into public awareness until Navarro found his books in 1971, has a lot of people kind of consider him write him off as an outsider artist. I don't, because there's just too much there for him to have merely been an outsider artist making all this up. Not the least of which was the discovery I made. You're familiar with Deglaca, the Nazi bell? Oh, yeah, I've heard of the Nazi bell. Okay. I found the bell, a prototype proof of concept version of the bell in Dell Shale's works. The first thing I did was call. I'm good friends with Joseph Farrell. Okay. And I said, Joseph, I'm going to send you a photo. What is this to you? Right. Look at that. He goes, where did you find that? I go, it's in Dell Shale because you've got to be kidding. I'm like, no, then I contacted Stephen Romano and I go, go to page whatever of your book. There's the bell. Now Dell Shale, prior to dying in 1923, one of his drawings. In fact, I think I sent photos of that too. You'll see here. He claimed that this was the the motive power source or part of the power source for how the arrows could take flight and gain anti-gravity. It was just part of the process. It's bell shaped. But it's a bell shaped. Well, the Nazis later, they juiced it up with electromagnetism, but this would have been a proof of concept. Very basic, but there it is, a bell shaped element that rotates, spins around a central axis. And according to Dell Shale, no, it's one that's, yeah, click through those. It would be the shape of a bell. Go back, go back. There we go. The generator cone. Dell Shale called it the generator cone. Okay. It's bell shaped. And then the description, it spins around a central axis. And now he sketches this before he dies in 1923. And we have the, you know, the law of diglaca, the Nazi bell emerges obviously after 1923. Okay. And you've got the German connection. Right. You know, you start seeing these, these threads. Now, like I said, others that have looked at it that, you know, Joseph Farrell being one of them, they agree with me that this is essentially a prototype proof of concept version of the bell. However, it was they did this in the 1850s. Now, what is the conventional explanation that people will give you? Historians will give you, if you ask them about the Nazi bell. Oh, most historians don't even believe it exists. Oh, really? They don't even acknowledge it being real? Yeah. They won't go that far yet because there hasn't been a document that has emerged from anything, you know, World War II era documents that have are proof positive. Yes. So how do we know that the Nazi bell was something or why, why do people speculate about it? It emerged from Igor Wikowski was a Polish researcher and writer and a Polish intelligence officer told him about this device, you know, this diglaca device. And he started looking into it. Joseph Farrell is actually the first one to write about it in English. And it still comes out of that murky world of Nazi scientific intelligence. Right. You know, but the, so it's just oral transmission. There's no original documents. Right. Right. Right. Now there are things that Joseph Farrell has pointed out like Kamler, professor, Dr. Kamler, who was and would have been involved with such things. And there's some murky, mysterious stuff stated in documents about him. There was mention of a particular device being classified as in German, it translates into the English as it can, it can change the outcome of the war. However, that said in German, Joseph Farrell is better about the phrase, but, but it was classified with the wonder waffle. You're familiar with the wonder waffle, the wonder weapons that the, the Nazis were developing during the war or in the murk of all that. Well, they're, they're most exotic technologies. Okay. We're referred to as wonder off. Okay. The wonder weapons. And they could change the outcome of the war. And there was something very mysterious that Kamler was involved with that could have changed the outcome of the war. And that is believed to be a reference to the bell. And then there are other stories where it sounds like that could be a nuke maybe. Well, they were messing with nuclear technology, you know, some folks believe that they did detonate a test nuke in the, I'm not a German speaker, Thuringen Woods or something, the one of the, the forest country over there. And possibly tested one in the Pacific for the Japanese, possibly that's part of the lore. Admittedly not an expert on that, but there's, there's enough reason to suspect that the Germans were farther along with their atomic bomb research than has been traditionally believed. Right. Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. Just plump, dewey hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Mavily. So, you know, it could have just simply been that, but you have all these, these weird stories. Now, I've done some research on that. And there's a novel by Dean Coons called Lightning, title Lightning, which is about a Nazi time machine. And when you, and it was published in the 80s, a few years before Igor Wikowski's source came to him and said, "Hey, there was this thing called the Glock on the Bell." And what's interesting is the time device in Dean in Coons novel. is strikingly similar to the description that this Polish intelligence officer told me or what Kowsky. So the question remains, okay, did the intelligence officer just get this from a book and generate this stuff or what did Dean Kuntz know when he wrote this? You know, was there really anything to it? And then, alas, we find that Dell Show did this drawing before 1923. And for all intents and purposes, what he's describing is the bell, the rotating device, you know, now what the Nazis did was added the second element because you had the counter rotation, right? You had two parts, one spun one way, the other spun the other way, and they injected a serum, which might have been mercury, most people think it's mercury, and then the high spin rate, and then of course they juiced it up with electromagnetism, unlike it had ever been before. And so the legendary result is anti-gravity. So here you have this group in the 1850s that according to a guy writing in the 1890s before 1923 was messing with the same concept, and he's claiming that they were achieving a form of anti-gravity. So you have to wonder, okay, maybe the bell story, you know, is true. If you enjoy watching our show on Spotify or YouTube and you want to be more involved, I encourage you to please come check out our Patreon community. Not only does our Patreon community get every episode you see on YouTube early, fully uncensored, and ad-free, but we're also doing Patreon exclusive episodes, as well as live Q&As, and you can get your personal questions answered by our guests every single week. For me, being able to collaborate and communicate back and forth with our Patreon community every week has been huge, and this is my way of saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month. Now back to the show. So did Dell Shaw write about seeing these airships and the sky and how they moved out? Oh yeah, he witnessed Peter Menace. Now the arrows that Dell Shaw witnessed were kind of the Model T version of what we saw in the 1890s. In my research, what I've done is I've laid out that, okay, the arrows of the 1850s that Dell Shaw writes about, they were kind of like the Model T, and then the 1890s airship, that would have been. I've got a chart on there called the Bosley chart that shows you exactly what I'm talking about. Like the evolution of that? Yeah, kind of to give an idea. So these things were smaller, they could fit one or two people, and they would demonstrate them. Yeah, there's what I called the Bosley chart. I came up for it. So you see the, on the left is an 1850s arrow, and then there's the 1890s airship, and then it's like a '58 Buick, and then of course the modern UFOs more like an '85 Porsche compared to. Oh wow. And that kind of shows you now. I think the 1890s airship is a result of development that started right after the end of the Civil War, but which I'm sure we'll get into that. So how did he describe those things moving? Was there anything unique about it? It would just, he describes them raising up, and they would fly them around the countryside and then come back down. He didn't say they were like faster than normal or. He did not say they were faster than normal. That kind of thing didn't emerge until the 1890s. When was the first powered flight? Well, credited powered flight was. I think it was. He's got French all kinds of AIs in front of him. He's for the Wright brothers, right? Or is it the Wright brothers? It depends on who you talk to. Right. Yeah. First powered flight is. Oh, here you go. 1903, okay. Yeah. Okay, so they are. Yeah, the Kinean. No, but normal, right. Yeah. Yeah. And that's standard history. Right. Exactly. Huh. What does it say? The longest flight that day was 59 seconds that covered 852 feet. Yeah. Interesting. So this was quite a bit. 50 years after. About 50 years after. Oh, yeah. First powered flight. Yeah. Yeah. The first credited known, because I think they filmed. I think they had a movie camera out there because there were others that claimed to have done it before. There were French guys that had done it. There was. Some people claim a gentleman. I can't remember his name. A movie was made about him, I think, in the 50s with Glenn Ford. A guy down by San Diego who allegedly done the same thing, but they didn't take pictures or a movie footage. Right. Like in our times and no photos, it didn't happen, right? And so. Yeah. So this is all in the face of. What is it? Oh, there we have Gustav Whitehead. Yeah. These are uncredited, unverified. I get undocumented accounts for like 1901, 1980, 1890. Oh, there's a lot of people that were credited to have possibly been the first possible. Yeah. It was being worked toward. You know, it was being worked on. So other than Del Shaws drawings and these notebooks that he was creating, there was no other anecdotal corroboration or witness testimony or anything like that. Right. All we have is Del Shaw, as far as the Sonorero Club goes. Now, what about the 1890s airships? Those were reported in newspapers in San Francisco and around the country, wherever they were seeing. In fact, that's how we know about them are the newspaper reports and the multiple witnesses. The 1890s airship mystery gets way more interesting when you look closely at it. There are those who, again, amazingly just write it off and say it was an April Fool's Day joke. Well, that's funny because the first one was reported in November, so. That kind of shoots that down. These were. These were witnessed by many people and they're in one particular instance. There were a couple of known historical figures that you can pull up their pictures, Colonel Samuel Tillman and Amos Dolbert. You're thinking, "Who are these guys?" They were not rock stars of their day. If people were making stuff up, you might expect them to say, "Oh, Mark Twain and Teddy Roosevelt stepped off of an airship." No, a gentleman stepped off the airship and introduced himself as Samuel Tillman. That's Samuel Tillman right there. He was an army colonel. I think he might have been retired at this point, but this might have been around the time that for a while during World War I, he became the common don't of West Point, so he's a real guy. There's record of him. Daniel Liss, dark journalist, he's done some incredibly deeper diverse search on this guy right here to further corroborate. Interesting. Who he was. Well, he and Amos Dolbert, who was an electrical engineer, they step off this airship and they talk to the witness, give their names and everything and then get back on and go. Where is this? This might have been in North Texas because these airships were seen from San Francisco all the way into Montana, Wyoming, Utah and down into Texas. Interestingly, along much of what was called the outlaw trail, which suggests the other surprise in my research butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and at a place, but we'll get to that. So the story is they were in Texas, these guys land their airship walked out and talked to somebody. Yeah, because they needed water. When the airships would land in multiple reports, they would need to get water. And so while they were collecting their water, the pilots would talk to them. Another interesting fellow who comes up and he's a whole discussion in himself known only by his last name Wilson, the mysterious Wilson. There were two Wilson's identified with the 1890s airship mystery. There was a Wilson in the Sonora Arrow Club. And I first heard of Wilson through my dad's weird exploit when he was in the Air Force in the late 50s. That was the first Wilson I'd heard of. So we've got this century of these individuals named Wilson who seem to be from the same family, who seem to be involved with all these airships. mysteries, and in my dad's case development of alleged anti-gravity research technology for the US Air Force in the late '50s. But Wilson is one of the two Wilson's, Hiram Wilson and Willard Wilson were two of the crewmen from the airships that were reported talking with witnesses, explaining that, "Hey, we're in Texas right now. We can fly down to South America and be back or Cuba and be back within a couple of hours or a few hours." That kind of thing. So they would talk about the abilities, and it was like they were very open, not trying to hide this once these things were seen. So the 1890s airship mystery was a really interesting era for this. It was almost as if somebody was testing the waters of the public. It was widely reported in the newspapers of the day, west of the Mississippi mostly, unlike the Sonora era club mystery for which we only have the one source. So strange. How many different witnesses were there for the 1980s airships? Well, the 1890s, the newspapers identify individuals that they spoke to, but they would describe it as a crowd of people or a group of people. In some cases, the whole city is watching. I believe in San Francisco. That's the case. The whole city was seeing this thing fly over. Wow. And what's really interesting, and I get into it in one of my subsequent books, is Ambrose Beers. Ambrose Beers is a guy who was interested in strange things, wrote about strange odd things. And he worked for the newspaper that was owned by William Randolph Hearst. Now, Hearst has long been alleged to have been one of the investors in the mystery airships. Oh, really? Yeah. This is saying, by the way, Steve Googled it in the Wikipedia says over 100,000 witnesses. Yeah. Through all the over the cities that they appeared. And yeah, it was a lot of people. So crazy. And this is why I say, when you look into this, sure, there's there there will be some that people are making it up. It's kind of like in our days with UFOs. People want to be part of the phone. Oh, I saw one too. And you can usually tell when they're making it up. And I tend to try to be polite, you know, oh, really? Yeah. In some cases, they'll say BS. Right. But usually, you'll be polite. But to write this off as nothing but an April fool's joke and that all these newspapers and all these people were doing, that's, I wonder what the agenda of the skeptical individual, insisting that this was all a joke. You know, well, what's really crazy is it goes back into like biblical stories of seeing things flying in the air, like mysterious things. Yeah. Throughout several says the beginning of recorded history. You can talk, they talk about this kind of stuff. Well, there's the Vedic literature. I'd become a big fan of what was really going on a long time ago, because this Vedic stuff is just way too, it's wild, but I think it will go to explain much of the mysteries of our lost past. Yeah. If we could just get people, people in the West have been turning on to this and they're starting to pay attention to the Vedic stuff more and take it seriously. But there's still a lot of resistance to it. Yeah. Some of this ancient literature, I mean, even less ancient like biblical stuff, it just seems like, you know, whatever these people were seeing, either they had the most insane imaginations or they were on an ungodly amount of psychedelic drugs or they were seeing something that we just can't, you know, I mean, maybe we just don't have the ability to perceive. I don't know. It's mysterious, but it's very interesting how it's been corroborated through time. I've put forth in the books, even laid it out, that I think in those times, I do think extraterrestrials are real. You know, most I think most people do. Yeah. I think they have been coming here. I think they do come here. I think in the remote past, they were here and interacting. And so when you refer to these old writings, like scriptures and old histories and stuff, I think those folks back then, they were interacting with people from other worlds. Yeah. Like the book of Enoch and stuff like that. Exactly. Exactly. What's interesting is the book of Enoch in the store and Plato's Atlantis is exactly the same story. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Enoch's city in the sky intrigues me. Now I looked into that for my origin book and in that research. And all I could find for documented source on that was from Joseph Smith's writings, the Mormon literature, which has its problems. My personal assessment on Smith is that I think he found something. I think he really did find some type of documentation of past lost civilization, but I think then he used it to create his religion. Yeah. That's what I think he did. So I think these people are might be onto something. The Scientologists. You think? I find it so strange that all of the top remote viewers were Scientologists. Yeah. And you know, for such a freaky, weird, religious cult, like they were never shut down for some reason. And I know they did a lot of crazy shit like suing the IRS. And you know, they have ways of like lobbying governments and stuff like that. And they're very resourceful with the money they have. But usually the shit that people would have noticed just doing this podcast is usually like the face value, the stuff that seems the most wacky at face value. After time, you start to realize like there may be a couple kernels of truth in there somewhere. Yeah. I'm a big believer in the nugget of truth approach. Yeah. When you're talking Scientology, you've got to look at the man who started it, Aaron. Right. Friends with Jack Parsons. There you go. And a bit of a world explorer himself in his younger days. So he was very much interested in these lost mysteries and such. Obviously, now you have to wonder, okay, was he navel intelligence purely when he was associated with Jack Parsons or did navel intelligence select him, assign him to that because he was knowledgeable about the weird stuff, the arcane things. So yeah, I think that a guy like Hubbard absolutely learned some weird esoteric knowledge. And it went into, you know, what they do now as far as their their ability to survive even with the scandals and the right. Quite frankly, bad things you hear about. Like God, like unbelievable amount of negative press. Yeah. So you wonder, but when you point to the guys who develop remote viewing, that was developed by the US government, right? And in connection with developed by them, was it just co-opted and funded by them after they found? And then greatly advanced, I would say that we probably haven't heard the most extraordinary. I'm pretty sure we probably haven't heard that we've seen, we've heard the tip of the iceberg, probably. Exactly. I'm sure McMonigal has done things that would blow your mind even more if you knew them. You know, Joseph McMonigal, who's considered or the best one. What if remote viewing was a fake operation they made up and threw some money at as they get at a jail free card because we actually had spies in other places. And when we found shit out, we didn't want to cause any chaos. So we said, oh, no, we have this remote viewing program we're doing. Don't worry, we don't have anyone any intelligence people embedded in your country. And that's a reasonable I don't know if I believe that, but it's a, you know, possible coming from the perspective of having been in the community, the intelligence and counterintelligence community, which they're all the same community. That does sound operationally rational. That's something that they would do. Oh yeah, this covering for a much more mundane down to earth source. If it weren't for the fact that when you try the stuff, it works to a degree. And so then you're back to, okay, wait a minute, then are they, are they really doing this? Now what I found interesting, I noticed something about A couple of novels, a couple of works of fiction. One of them was published in 1970, titled "Time and Again." And, oh boy, the author's name is Jack Finney. I'm sorry, Jack Finney, the great Jack Finney, who had written time travel stories in the '50s. He had written for outer limits, or Twilight Zone even, I think. He was friends with George Clayton Johnson, another Twilight Zone author, and Richard Matheson and Ray Bradbury and all those guys. So he writes this novel, "Time and Again." This published in 1970. And when you read that novel and read his description of how their time travel works, you're saying, that's the remote viewing program. How it worked in the novel is that the protagonist is recruited into this ultra-secret DOD-US Army program in a warehouse. It's headquartered in a warehouse in Manhattan. And they have these little cubicles. And in each cubicle, everything is the trappings of a particular era, whether it's Rome, whether it's the Renaissance. And so the individual who's supposed to time travel using his mind dresses and lives the part in that cubicle. And the idea is to use the power of the mind to literally transport yourself back in time. - Oh wow. - The protagonist of the novel is the first one, well, he's not the first one, but he's the most successful at it. Obviously, you gotta have a novel. And so I immediately, when I learned about the RV program, I thought of that novel 'cause I had read it years before and I'm thinking, okay, we're told that RV, we're told that RV emerges sometime between 70 and 75. But here's this novel in 70 that pretty much virtually describes kind of the setup for remote viewing. And we're told that remote viewers can look through time. So then you have, in 1975, you have the novel "Bid Time Return", which became very famous under the film title "Somewhere in Time", the movie with Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour written by Richard Matheson, in which he uses the power of his mind to transport himself back in the case of the movie, 1912, 'cause he falls in love with the actress, that he sees in a picture in the Hall of History, the hotel. And again, it's the same process as what Jack Finney wrote about and published by 1970. - Yeah. - So I wonder, were they actually dabbling with what we call remote viewing long before we're told that they did? And when you go back to how MK Ultra came to the United States during the World War II era, it starts getting a little interesting there as far as I'm concerned regarding the timeline. When you're talking the US government, particularly the military, like an aircraft, if you're told, oh, this is our most advanced aircraft, and this is its altitude ceiling, and this is its top speed. Well, if you've been in that world, you come to realize, okay, that's definitely not the most advanced aircraft we have because that's gonna be secret. And even the aircraft they're telling you about, oh, its ceiling's gonna be higher. - They're telling you about 20%. - If they're keeping it short, you might say, and it goes faster, that's just the way you do it. And I got no problem with that, it's smart. So when I hear that, well, remote viewing was started by these guys, and well, it started in around 72 or 73, whenever that was, I, from my perspective, I go, okay, there's these other possibilities, and I think it started sooner than that, personally. And I think that perhaps Vinnie, who, when I looked into it, he had his background in the military, so did Richard Matheson. I think they had their, they still had their contacts, they still had their sources. And maybe, for all we know, maybe Vinnie was commissioned to, you know, hey, take this, write something about it, you know, we wanna kind of get it out there, get the idea out there, for whatever reason. The reason could be what you said, that let's start planning seeds that we're messing with this. 'Cause remember, we were learning during that era, the '60s, that the Russians were dabbling in messing with all this stuff. So if they were doing it, we had to do it. So you could even say, well, if they were lying about it, to fool everybody, then we're gonna lie about it. Right. It goes on it. Or they, you know, they saw that we, or they were lying. They, I don't know, who knows? The original person or group or country that was doing that was trying to deceive or misdirect. And they, their country didn't realize that. It said, oh shit, they're figuring out something that we don't know anything about. Exactly. We gotta look into it. Exactly, until they find out, oh wait a minute. Right. Or until they find out the other like, oh shoot, this stuff's real. Yeah. Now my dabblings, 'cause I'm not an expert, or a R.V. person, my dabblings were, a gentleman emerged in April of 2007, a total stranger calls me, says he got my number from a mutual contact. And we talked for three and a half hours. This guy claimed to be former naval intelligence. And we talked for hours about weird experiences and stuff. And ultimately he said, I wanna train you in remote viewing. Have you heard of him? Oh yeah. Yeah, I heard about it. Actually, I'd heard about it in 1986 from my mentor, which that gets into my weird career stuff. But I had heard about this in 1986, but I had never pursued learning it. I was not trained in it during my government career. Interestingly enough. So I said, sure, yeah. And he sent me discs. Turned out to be the Ed Dames version, which I subsequently learned. Okay. As I was learning it, I became suspicious of, the test images given seem to suspiciously follow the shape of when you do the idiogram that's supposed to be like the automatic writing part. Well, your natural, most of my idiograms, most of them I could show you over the several that I've done, it's a squiggle, a pointed squiggle. Oh, funny thing that the first targets have points on them. And what I became suspicious about that was, oh, that's a good way to convince somebody that they're really doing this, like show an image of a barn with a pointed roof, like that. That's going to look like your squiggle. So the Statue of Liberty with the pointed crown, well, that's going to look like the, oh, look at this, I'm doing remote viewing. So I'm kind of, I have a foot in two worlds. One is, yeah, I love the weird stuff. Oh yeah, and there is more to this existence. Right. But then because of what I was professionally, I always have to remind myself, okay, you know, don't let this fool you. Right. Be skeptical of it. It's kind of like when the Vatican sends the guy out to eliminate all other possibilities rather than demonic possession, you know, like, oh, no, it's a psychiatric problem. Oh, no, you're faking it. I kind of feel like that guy. I'm a believer in these things, but I know the value in critical thinking. And so that's kind of the position. So when I say, hey, I think there's something to this, I'm being, I mean, I'm always honest and sincere, but didn't that Vatican guy though? Wasn't he always incentivized the government? Was the devil? 'Cause there's that old saying, the devil's the church's best friend 'cause he keeps him in business. Well, I think, yeah, there was a, but in general, they would have guys that they would send out to, let's eliminate them in the first, but that's another thing I have an issue with, but just a whole other discussion with everything being the devil. You bring up a good learn right now. It's, that's really popular with certain things. Oh, yeah, totally. Then I think partially could be, but it doesn't explain at all. That's meandering away from. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's very easy to get, and it's very easy to be convinced about something and to believe in something when it has, like, profound meaning. Yeah. You know, when you make it meaningful to somebody, like, for example, the whole synchronicity thing, where like, if you're thinking about somebody that you haven't talked to in a long time, all of a sudden they call you. Like, oh my God, that has so much meaning, right? Because like the, the probability of that happening is almost impossible. So, there must be what, We must have been likes. helipathically connected at that moment. But then, you know, you do the math and how many times have you thought about people you haven't talked to in a long time and they never called you. - Right. - Right. (laughing) - Yeah, you know, for the hundred times you did it, it worked. - Right. - So, ooh, there's something to it. - Right. - The one time it happens, it just has so much meaning you never forget it. - Right. - But you forget all the other times that it never, no one ever called you. - Yeah, of course, those are the inconvenience. - Yeah. - It's interesting you'd bring that up because maybe we should hand her over to my career stuff, 'cause that really formed me who I am as a person and then formed who I am as a researcher writer. - Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting, it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. - Maybe it's Mabelie. - I had a mentor who I talk about, and I've written about, and he really, he was tailoring me for something. But it all, it really for me all started in December of 1979. I wake up one, I'm 16, just a couple of months. I wake up one Sunday morning, and the first thing I do is look at my hands, and I'm thinking, these aren't my hands. Now you gotta remember, I'm kind of a straight arrow, I'm a nerd, I haven't smoked weed even a puff to this day and I'm 62, so I was a nerdy kid. I didn't, it wasn't like I'd come off a bender or something, you know? - Right, it was, you know, I'm looking like, these just woke up on my hands. - And I look at the wall and I'm seeing a texture, the texture of the wall in a way that I'm not used to. I get up and I recall through that day, I walk through the house, and there's my sisters, and I remember thinking, okay, there's my sisters, and oh, okay, there's my mom in the kitchen. It was just what's going on here, I just felt weird, and there'd been some type of weird shifting in my consciousness, it was like an awakening. And over the course of the next several months, I had this intense focus or sensing, you know, I could sense when there was some type of stress going on between people, it was just really weird, it was, and I couldn't explain it, I obviously still can't explain it now, just what I was going through. A little over a year after that, now we're into January of 1981. I have this dream, the most vivid lucid dream I had ever had, and over the course of about 20 years, parts of that dream came true, I kid you not. It's, I don't know how to explain it, but I would, one time I was in the '90s, I was coming back from deployment with the Air Force, I was in Germany, I go to this little village, Rudersheim, and I turn a corner, and there's a landscape that I had seen in this dream in 1981, it was stuff like that, all sorts of weird things like that. So that happens in January of '81, and in February of '81, I have my Disneyland experience, which led to the strange thing I write about in my book Latitude 33, the Disneyland stuff. So these kinds of things are going on. I mean, I could tell you, it doesn't more stories, but what was interesting that I noticed was that this mentor who's an uncle of mine, he visited us about seven months or so before I had that awakening in '79. And when he was visiting, he seemed mostly interested in me, he's one of my mom's brothers. And he would, he would sit there and he would look at me, and then he would just make small talk, but he would look at me, and I noticed, I'm like, okay, you know, I got three ears or something. So a few years later, after the, the Disneyland thing, I finished college, it's 1986, and that's when he starts overtly pitching me to work for Uncle Sam. But he starts the conversation with, oh, you know, you're interested in UFOs and strange phenomena and stuff like that? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And he tells me his own story of when he was in the Army, he had been recruited in the Army in 1950. He ended up in the 101st Airborne. And went into Army intelligence and such, but he told me about his own weird experience with seeing this figure, this entity he called the Blue Lady. Really crazy stuff. And while he's telling me this, and this could have some significance, I think, down the road in the story, he's telling me about the Blue Lady and I start trembling. Just this weird, I don't know what he was doing if he was doing something with his voice or whatever, but I was trembling and getting slightly nauseous. It was just weird. Anyway, the conversation ended with, if you really want to learn more about these things, you should go to work for the government. Like, really, it goes, yeah. Yeah, go get into be a federal agent or whatever. And I'm a young guy out of college. Okay, this sounds cool, you know? And so that began his formal mentorship of me. That was in spring of '86. And by December of '86, I drove back, he's from Alabama. He's passed, he passed away in 2016. But at the time, he was living in Alabama. That's where my mom's from. And I drive back there to visit him and he tells me more weird stories, but he told me, bring a suit and tie. I'm going to have you pay a visit to someplace. Okay, so I did that. He had me, I get back there, he has me drive to Huntsville. Oh, boy. The night before I go, he has me fill out what's called an SF80, a standard form 80, just a basic employment application for the US government. All the agencies basic level use them. He goes, fill this out. And tomorrow you're going to drive to Huntsville. And you're going to take this to building number such and such to the back door. This is how my career started. So I go up there, redstone arsenal, the NASA insulation. It's a NASA building. I knock on the door. A guy pops out, are you Walter? Yes, I am. You got something for me and handed it to him. Thank you, okay, go enjoy the museum. And that was it. I never worked for NASA. I never got interviewed by NASA. But I turned my first government application into the back door of a NASA office at Huntsville with all its murky stuff, right? So what happened when you went inside? I didn't go inside. Oh, he just took it, closed it, and said, go enjoy the museum, which, you know, the ground, and that was it. He had me then the following November, he instructed me to go apply to the FBI, which I did at the Riverside office. I went in and turned in an application there. Now, when you go to work for the FBI, it usually takes about 18 months to your background. Year and a half, you're waiting to start work. I turned my application in November of '87. And by the beginning of February, they had finished my background investigation. And one of the sources, references that I gave them, she calls me and she says, hey, the guy just came by and interviewed me for your background. Oh, okay, great. The next day, she calls and says, these other two guys came by. And they interviewed me again for your background. And I told them that I had already done this. And they said, well, we're the FBI. We do our own backgrounds, who was this? She goes, I don't know. He showed me a badge. So there were two agencies doing my background. And by the middle of February, I'm getting a call. Congratulations, Walter, report for duty at LA, 11,000 Whalcer Boulevard on the 14th of March, 1988, is when I started. And when I showed up to walk in, now my mentor had said, take whatever they offer you. They know you have a college degree. Don't worry about that. Take whatever they offer you. So I accepted a GS3 male clerk position, just to get me to do. So I'm there with about a dozen other newbies, going in to be a male clerk. And I and a young lady get pulled out of the line, and we're each taken to separate rooms. It's an empty room, but just the chair I'm in and two in front of me. And I'm waiting and I'm thinking, OK, who in my family's the drug dealer I didn't know about, or something like that? And it wasn't that. These two agents come in and they say, hey, we're with the special support group. We do counterintelligence surveillance under cover. shallow cover and we think you're uniquely qualified for this. Fill out this in-house 14-page thing, get it back to us as soon as possible. So I spent 45 days as a male clerk and then was promoted to evidence technician and I was an evidence technician for six months when I got a call. I had I had got married that summer to my first wife and we had transferred up to the San Francisco division. Anyway, I've been an evidence technician for six months when I get a call from the supervisor of the surveillance team in San Francisco saying, "Is this Walter Baselik?" "Yes. Okay, I'm supposed to interview you." He was told, "Bring him up, interview him." And that's how my counterintelligence career started. I was sent off to my first round of spook training, spy training at Quantico and I was on an undercover surveillance team for a while in San Francisco and then he tracked you to hunt down the hell's angels. No, just Russian spies. Russian spies. Yes. Wow. Yeah, this was Soviet. I'm sorry because it was still the cool one. Did you find any? Oh, yeah, we followed them every day. We followed the known and suspected KGB and GRU agents working out of the Green Street consulate in San Francisco. I think it moved after the. In fact, the consulate was still there, I think, after the 89 earthquake, but the people who lived, the Russians who lived around there, they moved pretty quickly because of the earthquake damage. But yeah, that's who I worked against in San Francisco, the teams worked against and then I passed the language training and the language training. Oh, I'm sorry, the language test, aptitude test and they were going to send me the link. They said, "We're sending you to. You scored the highest in the division, so we're sending you to Russian training." I'm like, "Great! I already live in San Jose. I just, you know, pack a bag and be in Monterey for 11 months." Well, no, not exactly. You're going to be in the Baltimore division because we're sending you to a school at Fort Meade. And I'm like, "Okay. Here's what's interesting is I was there with nine other FBI people from all over the country, for a basic Russian language course, being taught by the NSA Cryptologic School at what's called the Fort Meade Enix. And there were nine FBI people and one NSA employee, a real quiet young woman. And she never, during those 11 months, she never socialized with us. Out of this 11 months, two couples emerged, me and my second wife, among them. And, you know, we were all close. I mean, real close. But the NSA employee, she would only see us Monday through Friday during the training hours. And when we would step out and take a break, you could see through the fence an area of Fort Meade where there was this particular building that I remembered because I would see it every day for a year. Okay. So I passed Russian language course and I go to New York. I'm in New York for three years working on a Cold War operation that had been going on for 15 years and the final years of the Cold War working against GRU and KGB agents who were undercover in Manhattan. Yeah, that was, that was pretty cool. That was, that was fun. And my mentor, that's another part of this. My mentor's teaching me all sorts of weird stuff. And he says, "You need to know this stuff because there's people expecting you to, to know it, know how to do this story." It's just so wild, Danny, when I think, when I look back on this, this whole thing, where, where, what I'm leading to with this Russian training is, I learned years later that the reason the FBI language class that I was in was sent to Fort Meade instead of Monterey, which is where the language school is for the government is because we were used as training targets for the RV program. And I got this confirmation essentially from Linbu Canon. When I had the opportunity to meet Linbu Canon a few years ago, I'm with a group of folks at, at his house and everyone's asking a question. So when it was my turn to pipe up, I told him, you know, I was in this training program for language at Fort Meade back in, you know, '89, '90 and he's smiling and nodding. I said, the things I've learned about remote viewing since then and the strange thing, would they have used unwitting people, perhaps our language class as targets for training? And he smiled and nodded. And then I told him about the 10th person in the class who was in an insane employee and he knew her. He described her. No, she was there to confirm the target. And she was, if you're familiar with the RV, you know how they'll use people as antennas. Oh, no, I wasn't aware of that. Oh, yeah, they can send, you can send somebody near a target and then you can kind of use them as a booster. That's my understanding of it. Well, specific people. Oh, just anybody, like they could be witting or unwitting. Now, the examples I've seen, they're witting, but from what I understand and from what I've heard from some folks, so she's like a human security camera or something. The fact that she's there and she was witting is my understanding is it helped them focus in on her and then they could get to each one of us. Interesting. It's wild, but you know, Lynn Buchanan, I mean, so there was our class and then there was the class after ours. And then after that, the bureau started sending everybody to Monterey again. Wow. So they only did those couple of, and this was in like the early 90s. This was 89. I reported to that in October of 89 and finished in September of 90. And it was at the Fort Mead annex. Yeah, one of the interesting things about that whole Benowitz story was that they were trying, from what I understand, they were trying to use him as like a conduit of disinfo to poison the well of the whole move on community because they thought that move on was infiltrated by soviet spies. Yes, that was a kind of when I was an OSI agent in the mid 90s, I that's when I first heard about Rick Dody because I had the same concern out in California was, you know, these foreign agents could use our UFO groups to get close to the bases. In other words, go out there on the, on the other side of the fence at Edwards, right? And while all the American UFO enthusiasts are going like this with their stuff, the spies going like that looking in the base, right? That's the concern. So when I brought it up as a development project to my boss, that's when they inform me, okay, we get your concept. We're not opposed to it, but we got to tell you about this guy, Rick Dody. And he was presented to me as a cautionary tale. Now that said, the reason I recommend people read Greg Bishop's project beta book is that I came away from that between what's reported in that book and my personal experience, I don't demonize Rick Dody the way a lot of people do because it is my opinion that the NSA drove Paul Benin Woods crazy, not Rick Dody, not OSI, and not Bill Moore. Because on record, they tried to tell Paul, hey, Paul, we know you're going a little too far with this. But when you read the stuff, the audio phenomena and certain, I guess you'd call it video phenomena, the NSA was messing with Benin Woods house. They were projecting and broadcasting things in it. It's from like across the street or something. Yeah, exactly. And it's my personal, what professional opinion that it's the NSA that really hurt Paul Benin Woods. And Rick Dody was just meeting with, he was meeting with him in person. It was his job tracking him. Yeah, it was his, you know, it's his job as an agent in counterintelligence. There's somebody who's paying attention to something sensitive on the base. You got to find out, okay, what's going on here? Is there anybody behind this? I mean, if there is, is the person waiting or unwitting? That kind of thing. Now, unfortunately, I've said in the past, if the Air Force has something advanced flying around in the skies and the general public wants to think, oh, it's from another world, okay, cool. That makes my job easier as an agent protecting this stuff. That's different from one on one telling somebody, oh, yeah, it's aliens. Oh, yeah, you're right. To me, I would draw the line before doing that because then you are getting into, because you're particularly if they, they know you as a government agent, okay, they're going to take your, a lot of people are going to be inclined to take your word for when you say things like that, okay? And then you're playing with people's psychology. And yeah, I'm personally opposed to that. So I think that there was a little too much of that encouraging, but oh, it was this other worldly thing when it was known that it was technology. Do you think there's any connection to the 1850s and 1890s airship stuff and what the Navy pilots were seeing? Do you think this is like maybe part of the same lineage? Not, I wanna say, I was gonna say not directly, but in a general sense, the natural course of development of technology. Yes, I have found what I think is a connection between the 1850s scenario club stuff and the 1890s airship mystery, which means there was another individual, Solomon Andrews, who demonstrated a controlled flying machine for members of Abraham Lincoln's war department during the Civil War. This was reported in a newspaper in D.C. Yeah, this guy contacted Lincoln and said, I have this thing and Lincoln said, oh heck yeah, we're interested in that. I'm gonna order Edwin Stanton to have representatives, you know, meet with you so you can demonstrate this. And he did and history tells us that the war department said, hey, we're in the middle of this conflict, we can't fool at this right now, thank you, but no, thank you. I suspect that they were very interested but because it was during the war, they had to put it on hold. But I think that Solomon Andrews was either pursuing the same arcane technological research that members of the Sonora Arrow Club had been pursuing or Andrews was acquainted with possibly. Yeah, that's the, the Aeron. Aeron, that's Solomon Andrews there on the left, but it was called the Aeron, the A-E-R-O-N. And that's a drawing of what Andrews demonstrated. Now people say we'll. To Lincoln. To Lincoln, members of Lincoln's war cabinet. Right. Members of the art department of defense essentially. Wow. People say, oh, those are balloons. Yeah, looks like balloons. The thing was, this was controllable far beyond a balloon of the day. This was not just a balloon, not just a dirigible. How the fuck would they use this during the Civil War? Dropping bombs. Oh, yeah, true. But here's the thing, they were already using balloons for that. So, you know, I could see during the war saying, oh, okay, this is nice. Right. So, I think that the US, I propose this. I think that at the end of the Civil War, possibly the very first black technology project. Yeah. Was development of what became the 1890s airships, 'cause you have about a 30 year period before a development, potential development before these 1890s airships start appearing everywhere. Right. And they're mostly all over the West, okay? You have a guy like Samuel Tillman, who we talked about earlier, who steps off one of these airships. When you look at his background as an army officer, he was a scientist. He was a chemist and a cartographer, okay? Well, when you get into the airship mystery, including the Sonora Aeroclub, there's a lot of chemistry involved, okay? Along with the other engineering. And what's one of the useful things about an airship, mapping cartography? Yeah. Those are two. An example of two of the specialties that Samuel Tillman had. And his career started in the 1860s. So his whole career spans what would have been the secret development, the hidden development of this airship technology into the 1890s when he steps off one of these things and identifies himself. Right. This is why I suggest that the 1890s airships were developed by this, probably maybe not the first, but one of the early coalitions between the US government and private industrialists. Interesting. And they brought their resources together, and that's how we had the 1890s airship mystery. Because when you look at the technology, the way people describe, because they would bring people on board. Can you pull up like illustrations of the 1890s airships specifically? They would describe, for instance, the Sonora Aeroclub. We know through Dell Show that there was that rotating generator cone, which is the bell, which I showed you earlier, okay? They would describe spinning rotating objects and devices on the 1890s airships, airships, mystery airships. And this was a propeller. Oh, yeah. It was like four propellers on the blend. Essentially, it was left. It was the same technology only more advanced as what was on the Sonora Aeroclub's devices. It is interesting. It looked that thing on top, kind of looks like a tic-tac shape. It's like a tic-tac with wings, right? And then what about the Horton Brothers? The Horton Brothers come along during World War II. Okay. So here, what you've got for that thread you asked about, how does that lead to today's stuff? What you've got clearly with the, in my opinion, with the Sonora Aeroclub and the 1890s airship mystery, you've got a thread of the pursuit of specifically anti-gravity technology in the 19th century. So to what extent rudimentary proof of concept that they had developed that up to the 20th century, then you get into the 20th century, right? And that starts, the airships disappear oddly. But a couple of decades or so, we start having an emergence of other types of UFOs. Roswell, yeah, by the late '40s. So clearly, somebody has continued the pursuit of anti-gravity technology, which we know is true, because through the '50s, in open sources, they were talking about it, and then we have T-Towns and Brown. And in 1958, a lid is clamped down on public discussion. So that's the late '50s. So by the time we get to 2004, - All of a sudden, it emerges again. - Yeah, who knows how far they developed it. Now, I was one of the, in my circles, in the community back in 2017, when the Tic Tacos being talked about, I got a lot of, you know, the iron and frustration at me, because my first assessment was, oh, that's some type of technology, was being tested. Why would they test it on pilots? Well, first of all, - Why wouldn't they test it on pilots? - Exactly. I said they want an honest human reaction to, you know, so they're not going to tell the pilots what they're seeing or to expect this. But what if they freaked out and shot it down? Their planes were unarmed. They were doing a, they were doing a proficiency sortie, off of San Diego. Well, the people in the city would have seen it. No, it was so far out - Right. - To see, and it's in that specific zone where technology is tested. So all the elements were there that it was clearly something, but people didn't want to believe it, 'cause it's exciting, it's different, everything. And then eventually, of course, it's come out that, yeah, it was, I still find it interesting that, you know, the shapes of these things. But now I just recently heard, I think it was someone you were talking about, talking to about this, where it was holographic. I think TD Barnes was talking about that. Yeah, he was at Area 51. He was working on the lasers that the projections. Right, and that, to me, is pretty interesting. I mean, we know that that's been around for decades. We talked about that. You guys talked about it. It's been written about and so on and so on. But I still find it fascinating that that can be done. To have you, I mean, there's declassified Peter Lavenda told us about this declassified program using the same technology to project a 3D image of Jesus Christ over Havana. And it would talk to the people, telling them to overthrow their government. And I think I heard that they would use various figures depending upon the, they could use various figures or plan to, depending upon the culture. They're, you know, religion or something. They could use, and that TikTok move like a laser pointer, the way he described it. Yeah, that was, when I was listening to Barnes talk about that, to me, that just, it clicked. Oh, yeah, okay, that's, that's very logical. And it's spoofing the radar. And people have to keep in mind. I think this, I know it's not very popular with some folks, particularly the devotees of the ET hypothesis. But we're in this era. where they're wanting to control the narrative, so there's going to be perception management stuff put out there. Of course. And when I say they, I mean the national security community of course, particularly the military industrial complex, they've got the big stake in this. And Ryan Graves talks about this specific object that he saw that flew right in between him and another plane that he was flying in tandem with. He said they were flying from wing to wing with maybe, I don't know, like 50 yards between them or something like this. And he saw a cube inside of a sphere. Yeah. And there was a patent for a balloon or some sort of a radar spoofing device for the exact same thing. There's an article written about this. If you forget the name of the website, but it's like a, it's like a war reporting technology website where they show the patent of this radar device, radar deflector device that is a cube within a sphere. And it's, it's wild. They, they show the whole thing. So it's like, what is that? I've seen that it is see if you find the actual article. Type in, yeah, radar defector blue. Yeah, that right there. That's it. There it is. Oh, yeah, it is. Click on that link. Click visit. Okay. This isn't the original article I was referring to, but that it gives you this, this might show the patent. Russia is now using balloons to trick Ukraine air defense scroll down. See if it shows us the exact. So that's what's inside the balloon. No, this isn't the article I'm thinking of, but that image that you had before this before you clicked onto the article. That was the image from that, from that patent. I think U.S. was you. Oh, there, there it is. TWZ to the left with the jet. The war zone. That's the article I was talking about. So are some of the UFO Navy pilots encountering actual airborne radar deflectors. So that is a cube within a sphere. And if you scroll down, or that's not really a cube, but that looks like a cube. You know, flying when you're up there in a jet. Look, USPTO, it shows you the US patent office link to that thing. You might, that might look like a cube to you when it's. Yeah. And you got all the stuff you're thinking about. Yeah, a cube in a sphere. Right. And on top of that, you know, when, when you see all these Congress people doing these big televised events and making this big spectacle out of non-human intelligence, NHI, and they're not talking about secret military craft at all. It really sends out a lot of red flags for me. I'm like, I'm hanging on like 12. Yeah, we're not getting anything from the government on this. It's, it's dog and pony. Yes, for sure. I, again, mentioning my friend, Greg Bishop, he once said something years ago that it's always stuck with me. And that is when you're seeing the extraordinary thing or when somebody's saying, hey, look at this. Look over here. Turn down and look behind you because the real show might be what they're trying to distract you from. And I think that's what this is. This is why I say, look, folks, I'm not anti-ET. I absolutely think they exist. I have no problem with visitors from other worlds coming here. But it, it may not be the version that's popular. It, it could be, you know, something you hadn't thought of or something that's just not, again, not the popular version. What is Joseph Ferrell's take on all this stuff? Joseph, he is kind of along the lines we are where, okay, yeah, this is technology that's being dangled in front of us. Ooh, what do you think of that? Where could that be from? And then, you know, the Koi government people. Oh, my is this from another world. But he, the big overarching view of his books in pretty much he's saying, and he's told me this, he thinks someone's on their way back here. When I say back, they've been here before. They're on their way back. He thinks that the governments, the leaders, so to speak, they know this. And a lot of the technology development has somewhat of a drastic element to it because what they may know about who's coming back, which Joseph refers to as the cousins. It might be potentially overwhelming as far as what we can respond to, and that that might be the concern that it's just a ticking clock, somebody's, and now we've heard versions of this. So that's what he thinks. That's all his books that he writes about what he's trying to do is show the reader the pieces of why he thinks this, the lost technology of the past, maybe why it was developed, maybe why somebody's on their way back here. But that's what he thinks. When does he think they were here last? We're talking, you know, the ancient times, like prehistory. Prehistory. The Vedic era. Are you familiar with his Giza Death Star research? Yeah, where he thinks the Giza pyramid complex was weaponized. It was, it was an energy device, and it was weaponized. He thinks it's even possible. And forget me, Joseph, if I'm getting the details wrong, but he thinks it's possible that whatever happened on Mars may have had to do with what was being done with the Giza pyramids. It's his cosmic war theories that there were parties out there that like a war between Mars and Earth, war between Mars and Earth or a third party and Earth got involved. Yeah, that's all in the mix. Oh, wow. And I think there's something to that. There are those who look at the whole Atlantis. My view of Atlantis isn't the, just the literal, it was a city state, but I think Atlantis was more of a, if they even called themselves that, more of a civilization that kind of spread out, you know, it was a civilization at a certain level. And it might be that when you look at the legend, and we talked about a nugget of truth somewhere in there, how they messed around with, you know, because Edgar Casey says this and others say they messed around with technology and destroyed themselves, that kind of thing. Earth might have been the bad guys in this conflict, or at least whoever was battling it out with Mars and whoever else was up there. I think that there was a conflict, a cosmic conflict, and the losers ended up here. And that explains the, possibly the Ketzel-Keladol, the Veracosia, the Tuidadidinan, these people, this culture, this mysterious culture that emerged and taught Earth-based humans. These humans, technologies like agriculture and astronomy, and you've heard of this. Uh-huh, yeah, yeah. I think they were the, they were, they were losers in a, maybe a big battle or some type of conflict going on. And they came here, and they've been, theoretically, hypothetically, trying to develop us up to the point to where we can meet the challenge when their foes return. Or arrive. So this is like the Ketzel-Keladol, Prometheus Noah type archetype. And who does he believe that those archetypes were based from? Where were they from? My view is that they came from another world, another planet, what have you, and they ended up here, after being, it was like possibly some type of civil war going on. Now, some people have said the Anunnaki, I've used that example, let's say the Anunnaki, they're, they're having an internal conflict, factions of the Anunnaki. We read about this in, in some of the, the stuff with how, you know, some of the Anunnaki, when we were created to be goldmining slaves. How some of them took pity on us and said, hey, wait a minute, these are our creations, we shouldn't treat them this way, when the other ones were like, no, no, no, they're just our property. And there was a big conflict, and there was a war between them. It could be that whatever the nugget of truth to that story is, I think, is what we're talking about here. And they would be the Ketzel-Qawaddle, the Veracosia, and so forth. People who emerge and say, hey, we're gonna, we're gonna teach you this, teach you that to bring you up to speed. I say, it could be wrong, it could be all nonsense. Yeah, it could be. The problem is, all those, all those stories are so interesting. Yeah. You know? And it really gets squirrely when you have like government officials trying to tell you what they think the truth is Yeah, because can we ever trust them? They always have an agenda. Mm-hmm. They always have an agenda I've been of the mind that if people really want to know the truth about UFOs or things like this is go do your own research and Do your best to keep it private. I've thrown the number out five years Like go out and do your own research on UFOs five years. Don't say a word. Don't Don't write a book about it. Don't go on podcast. Don't go on TV. Keep it really private But go out there and interview witnesses and go to the places where things are seen and What I've told people when I suggest that is you might be really amazed at the attention you get Because if you're out there digging into these things, but you're not being public about it the people who know the truth They're gonna notice really yeah, they're gonna say this person Is keeping whatever they're seeing and finding private, but they're out at that place and that place and and you know They're what do they know? What are they figuring out? And then the other side of that, too, is the phenomena itself if there is something to it if there are people from other worlds and dimensions That are you know the explanation for the real mysterious UFO cases They're going to present themselves if you're Sincerely seeking them If you're not doing it just for fame or money There I think that's going to be noticed and you might be surprised with the positive results you get but Just like any of this weird stuff you got to be prepared for The high strangeness that comes with it because whatever the truth is you know I hitchhiker effect. Yeah, there's you are you are going there is something weird about our reality now whether What we think about UFOs or ghosts on that what has any accuracy or not? there is something weird about our yeah our reality and You know, I mentioned that my mentor Sure, he he guided my career where yeah, I went to work for the FBI and then I went to the Air Force and so forth But this is the same guy that was teaching me to learn psychic stuff He taught me necromancy for crying out loud. Oh, yeah I was working for the FBI Manhattan when he taught me specifically a method of necromancy and Told me get out there and do this and develop the skill. There are people expecting you to know this Can you explain for people who aren't don't know what this is make a man's ears raising dead spirits and getting information from them? Yeah, exactly and I'm like Okay, and he says there's people expecting you to know this so and I asked of course Who what people you don't need to know that yet? Okay, but there I was I was living on Long Island working for the FBI Manhattan and I would go to the the old Kings Oh shoot, it's an old colonial cemetery on long north port the old north port cemetery you can see it online okay, and I Under his instructions I picked a person who'd been dead for over a century and I'd be out there Doing it trying to contact the person. I'll tell you no ghost ever emerged. I didn't hear a voice in my head and Believe me at one point. I thought Okay, or his buddies somewhere with a camera and a man, you know, just a little bit ritual Yeah, this is a hazing thing or is this testing me to see if I will follow You know the wild instructions and then later when I got into I was chief of double agent operations for OSI right Patterson for a few years and when I got into being a case officer doing double agentry and stuff and you learn handling Yeah, I was just laugh of my ass off at times because I would think back to the things He would tell me and say okay, and I'm thinking oh that was just beautiful handling Wow, you know, I thought okay. What's he doing this to me just to see how gullible? You know, I was of course that crossed my mind because It's looking back on it when I learned handling techniques. I realized oh, he was Handling techniques beautifully. He was using them, you know on me now one thing he told me in the mid-90s You might find this interesting Was about An article and There's a bunch of details to it that you know, we can talk about some time But the basics were he tells me this in 1996 remember. This is 1996. He's telling me That in an article around 1960 There was something found under the ice they found this giant hole or tunnel or whatever and they sent a team in there And they found this giant machinery huge machinery that was very old and then they encountered some people that were down there and Half the team went nuts, right now. He told you this. He told me this in 96 and of course now don't you be talking about this stuff and I'm by this time in 96 I'm an Air Force officer. I'm an OSI agent. So, you know, he says don't talk about it. I'm not gonna talk about it so What 10 or so years pass? I'm out of working for Uncle Sam 10 or 15 years And I'm in the UFO world that I'm in now and suddenly it becomes popular to talk about in Artica and this big hole or tunnel that was found and this weird machinery and I'm sitting or listening to this narrative and they're talking like Oh, this was just discovered and I'm thinking okay I was told this same story in 96 and that it happened in 1960 my thought was oh This was inking the water Here I am. Somebody wants to test if I'm trustworthy. So they tell me this narrative this mysterious and artica narrative But don't you tell anybody and of course I didn't But I'm looking at this emerging as a popular narrative in UFO world, right? And I'm thinking oh somebody talked somebody was told this same story They were this ink was dropped. Yeah, somebody chose to run their mouth about it So you think it was like some sort of strategic deception. Yeah, well, yeah I think it was just one of those inking in the water that yeah testing a source that you know We tell you something while you're gonna run your mouth about it or not I think that's what happens somebody use that now Am I saying there's nothing weird about an article? No Because I think there is something under that ice, but I just found it interesting that You know what appears to me to be an inking of the water scenario has become this thing that people just swear No, Baselie doesn't know what he's talking about because so and so you know seal commando Whatever extremo told somebody this that or the other and and you know, that's It kind of reminds me of the The secret space program nonsense that was going around for a while there, but The secret space program nonsense then yeah, you're familiar with that aren't you the the Corey Good stuff The the there's Corey Good Jason Rice all these guys who claim It really took off in 2015 and for about three to five years It was all over UFO world community these guys who claimed that They would they were time traveling commandos Working on the moon and Mars and fighting aliens and then they were time shifted back to their teenage right now The things certain things in themselves. I mean I've talked about now the people have talked about was seriousness, but it was It was this particular group and it was I think a calculated diversion from serious Classified space program research because the original SSP researchers were Catherine Austin Fitz and Joseph Ferrell and Paul LeVillette and Mark McCandlish and Richard Dolan and I was I spoke at the last conference they had of that era of research in Bastard, Texas outside of Austin in 2015 and that was they really were pushing hard to get us to talk about Corey Good from the first day and yeah, and so my thought Joseph Ferrell's thought a couple of others is that the authentic SSP research and investigation like fits and Ferrell and then we're doing looking at technological development looking at where the money was going this was serious research into Do we have a classified space program? I think it was getting too close to the truth Because the audiences at that event were growing each year. I think it was getting too close to the truth. So Somebody encouraged and nudged. Yes, the focus on the nonsense stories. Yes, which ultimately proved to be a lie And Catherine fits for overall view of this the real secret space program is like all the missing money since before 9/11 like when Rumsfeld came out and said there's trillions of dollars missing. All that stuff has been being funneled to some secret slush fund or something for like top level bankers around the world to be able to escape the earth in light of some environmental cataclysm. One development of the technologies and Joseph Farrell takes it a step further with he presents some interesting research on bonds and currency that is it has weird errors like a spelling error or something and he can explain it better but covertly these have to do with industry that's off earth. So we don't know what kind of mining activities for example you know that's what he talks about could be going on or being planned being you know work towards because the the potential resources you know that we'll find on these other celestial bodies I think is keenly on the near the top of the agenda. Really? Yeah I definitely like where in particular whatever the moon wires any place we can get to. Yeah. So what I find interesting too is the establishment of an overt space force because unless they're just going to be in near earth orbit all the time okay a military unit that means you're expanding the number of people that are going to have access to space that you're going to have to put out there in space which means that many more people are going to be seeing what's actually up there if there's something actually up there that we don't know about. So you have all these personnel that will need to be briefed in on stuff and I'm a little bit jealous because I found out that Air Force OSI is the investigative agency for space force so I envy those young guys because they they get to go up and these things or when we establish whatever's established and that's a whole other conversation what have we established already? Have we been on the moon? Have we? Have we put boots on the ground on Mars? I think we've tried. I think we've tried it at least on Mars. Yeah. What about the moon? Meet new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. Delta mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Mavily. Oh the moon I think the moon is an easy one for us to have put people up there. You think that footage is real? Oh yeah. Really? Yeah. I think that China, Japan and India, this these recent images they've sent back where there it is. There's the stuff where we said it was. Wow. And when you really dig into like people say that oh we lost the technology or we forgot the technology to do that it's we lost all the telemetry data. Yeah. When you really dig into it you see oh wow okay we really did it which makes it an even greater feat when you consider compared to today the primitive computer technology that they went up there with. Right. It was one one millionth computing power of an iPhone. Right. Right. And yeah I'm a believer. I think I think we really did it. But I don't think I am. I don't think we were told the truth about all the technology that was involved with getting there. I think it's possible going back to what we're talking about with what somebody was dabbling with in the 19th century and all that. Right. And that gravity stuff. Again Joseph Farrell he suspects that when you watch the the lunar modules lift off. Yeah. Okay. That's the goofiest video. It kind of goes whoop and the camera perfectly tracks. Yeah. But whoop it's like this weird pull him. Now people say well the gravity well the yeah. No there's there's something. He thinks that whatever the bell technology was that it went into Apollo as kind of an assist. In other words rocket technology wasn't going to cut it particularly getting back off the moon. Right. Because there was a concern about that. Okay. Getting them off. Okay. Getting them there was less of a concern than getting them back. And he thinks it's a hypothesis that they might have used some type of AG assistant when you think of Townsend Brown and all that stuff. I mean 1959 just a decade before we said. Now I don't think Apollo 11. This is a hypothesis of mine that Apollo 11 was not the first time we did it. Look at it this way. Let's say you believe we did it. You agree that we did it. We're in the middle of the height of the Cold War. Right. We're really going to put on the dog and pony show for the world our first time. No way. The way our department defense works. We're going to try it secretly to make sure the stuff can work. So I think it's possible that there's some unsung Apollo heroes. It might have been the same crew. It might have been Armstrong, you know Aldrin and Collins. But they might have done it before 11, which could explain why, you know, Neil Armstrong. They say, Oh, he's just such an aw shucks shy guy. You're the you're allegedly the first man to step foot on the moon from earth. Yeah. And you're you're going to never do the occasional parade. Two interviews. Yeah. Two interviews. Two public public speaking events. Yeah. Ever. There's something funny about that. Very funny. Right. Because if you are that person, you're almost going to be like it's going to be mandatory that you go out. Right. You would think, you know, tell this tale to everyone. And no matter how aw shucks you are, you know, it's like, Hey, the country wants to see this. You're going to you're going to be like, Yeah, I'm going to all up here. Yeah. You know, but and also, you know, you say right in the middle of the Cold War, right in the middle of, you know, the Apollo moon landing happened right smack dab in the middle of like MK Ultra, the Gulf of Tonk and the Vietnam war, operation north woods, JFK's assassination. The list goes on and on of deception and lies that are being covered up. But the one thing that is true is the most incredible feat of humankind going to the men. Well, are you aware that the US Air Force was the originator of our man space program? Most people aren't. The guys who also were were involved with bringing the Nazi scientists over under Operation Paperclip. Well, they were also guys who were dedicated to putting man in space. And during the 50s, Mercury was a US Air Force program. The capsule, the suits, everything were being developed. The US Air Force was going to put man in space. And then in October of 58, NASA stands up and we're told the public is told, Okay, Air Force hand over Mercury to NASA. This is now going to be a civilian thing. Okay. But we have no reason to believe that the Air Force ever actually was told to stand down a manned space program. I think we have had a classified space program from the late 50s on up to the, I would say the establishment of space force is effectively going to end not classified space operations. But anything that was classified that has existed parallel to the public space program, I think is going to be naturally absorbed into space force and eventually become part of space force kind of formative history. But I do think the Air Force continued with a classified man space program after NASA was founded. So they would have been the ones to attempt a moon landing with that technology to make sure it could work. That's what I think. To me, it just makes sense. Now that does not take away from the heroics of anybody who would get in those those relatively rickety objects and fly to the moon for crying out loud. Okay. Apollo 13 is the reminder of that. Yeah. It was incredibly courageous and dangerous and such. But I just suspect that Apollo 11 was not the first time, I think. I'm interesting. And like I said, I think we've tried boots on the ground on Mars. It could be wrong. And then there's that guy Gary McKinnon, I believe his name was the hacked NASA. And he said he found this computer with this file named Terrestrial Officers or something along lines of them, and he saw the cigar-shaped metallic craft hovering above. above Earth's atmosphere. In like, this was like 2002, I believe it this was. And then, okay, whatever, you got this crazy kid who saves the hacked NASA and said he saw this crazy thing or whatever who's obsessed with UFOs. Like, it's one guy hearsay, right? There's no hard evidence. But then they pursue one of the most aggressive extradition campaigns in the history of the United States. I got to tell him, mm-hmm. Like, what's that? Yeah, that says to me that what it looks like, he got too close to what he was talking about. Yeah, and something that they clearly don't want. People knowing. Speaking of Operation Paperclip, you talk a lot about that. And essentially, what is your view of Operation Paperclip? It seems to veer from the traditional explanation of what it was. Yeah, I presently and have come to a current conclusion that it could change if some drastic or new information arose. But I see, I now see Operation Paperclip as a Trojan horse invasion. When you look closely at the Operation Paperclip material, you find out that it wasn't our idea. It was suggested by a couple of the German scientists and said, hey, we can get a lot of our guys if you bring us over. And so we did. I had been turned onto a book titled "The Thousand Year Conspiracy" by a guy named Winkler. What's interesting was he had been a media guy in Europe. In fact, he's credited with Disney Studios hired him to introduce Mickey Mouse to European audiences. So he was a media guy, he was a press guy. Well, in 1937, he publishes 1937, reminds you, two years before World War II starts. He publishes this book, "The Thousand Year Conspiracy" in which he lays out going back to the medieval era, what the so-called "prussian" culture developed as far as a method of invasion through what's the ingratiation. And it started with what this culture of "prussian youngkers", these "prussian merchants" did to the "tutonic knights". They ingratiated themselves, made themselves indispensable to the "tutonic knights", and then they betrayed them. They ingratiated themselves to enemies of the "tutonic knights" and aided those enemies in destroying the "tutonic knights". And then through German history, they did the same thing to the ones that they teamed up with to destroy the "tutonic knights" and on and so forth. And this is how they ultimately, that so-called, I say so-called, because there were actual "prussians", but this particular group, okay, they took over that part of the Germanic territory and took the label. They started calling themselves "prussians". So they're not authentic "prussians", but the "prussians" as we know them. And they were greatly behind the drive for German unification, okay? And they achieved that. These are also the same "prussians" associated with Nimser, the mysterious Nimser. Well, as you get into my research on this, as I got into the 20th century, it kind of stopped, I wanna say, cold by World War I, you know, leading up to World War II. And I had done the 19th century research of all this stuff and I began to realize, wait a minute, okay, as I look at the players, these end up being the guys behind the rise of Nazi Germany. Okay? And the whole branding thing, the fascistic branding thing, you know, there are marketing guys who still consider the Nazi swastik as the greatest corporate logo, the most effective corporate logo ever used. Right. We've heard about this. But these guys who I've tagged with Nimser, these guys had a vision that the Nazis would greatly advance, okay? So when it became clear, this isn't my hypothesis, when it became clear that Nazi Germany was gonna lose the war, I argue that it was these guys, these Prussian guys that I've labeled the Nimser because they're essentially the descendant crew of the industrialists and such from the 19th century. They decided, okay, it's time to do what we did to the two tonic knights and their enemies and so forth through history. It's time to ingratiate ourselves to the big winners of this war, the United States. Hey guys, we got an idea. Bring us over, we'll help you get ahead of those pesky Soviets. We'll bring you our industry and our technology. And of course, we took that apple and bit right into it. And when I read Winkler's book, it was one of the, and I looked at it from the perspective of what's happened to the United States since the end of World War II, culturally, politically and the explosion of our military industrial complex and such. It was heartbreaking 'cause I realized we were invaded. And the JFK assassination indeed was a coup, was a move. And ever since then, our politicians have been influenced, controlled, what have you. Our society, for the most part, in America, there's this post-World War II fascist international that Joseph Ferrell talks about, he calls it the Nazi International, that basically has their claws in our government, in our military industrial complex. And when you, again, when you compare our history and you compare it to what Winkler wrote in that book, published in 1937, mind you. This wasn't something he wrote in 19. What was the name of that book by Winkler? The Thousand Year Conspiracy. You can find it free online, a PDF online. It's very disturbing. Now, the problem with Winkler that a lot of people have, and I totally understand the problem they have is, Winkler in that book unfortunately, doesn't provide references or footnotes, okay? But when you compare it to German history and so it's, you know, and so this is my take on it. My take is that that's what happened to us through Operation Paperclip, that it was indeed a Trojan horse. And our military industrial complex has been, you know, driving things, the financial world is involved in this too. - Well, didn't Russia also get a lot of the Nazi scientists? - Yes, they did. I have not done a deep dive on, there's an airship mystery connected to, airship builders and stuff connected to Russia, dating back to the 19th century that I've been turned onto. I haven't done a deep dive on that yet. I haven't done a deep dive on this same post-World War II era from this perspective on the Soviet world. And then Russia, I have a feeling I'm gonna find some things that, you know, will corroborate, you know, elements of the hypothesis, but you might even, might even go against it too, so. - Yeah, what do you got, Steve? The Soviet Union recruited more German specialists around 2,500 to 2,700 scientists, or roughly 60% compared to the United States, they got 40% interesting. - What's also interesting about that is, the scientists they got were, as Joseph Farrell and Leville and others have said, they, a lot of them were the main ones, the key ones, were working with a different physics than the West. There, this is where we get nowadays, it is said that Putin has encouraged asymmetric military technology, something that's different. Whereas we focus on what we focus on, they might have been developing more exotic technologies. I don't know the specifics. And that would be a product of their German scientists that they got, because. - Well, I mean, look at this, the fucking Ukraine war. - Yeah. - And look at the Iran war. There's no exotic technology being used. Nothing, they're using traditional shit. And, you know, they're beating up our military with, you know, cheap drones. - So if the exotic stuff is really being developed, who are they saving it for? - Right. - What? be saving it. Right. Are those guys coming from somewhere else? Or are they planning to fake? You know, there's talk about that. We talked about the projection of Jesus and the skies over with this projection technology. Are they are are they planning to stage, you know, a false flag invasion? And as some people say, what if in the middle of the false flag, the real guys show up? I mean, this could get crazier. Yeah. Maybe they're going to use some sort of fake alien invasion to sort of reset the economy, you know, with all the debt and all the inflation, there's no way we can we can, you know, bring this back to normal. So if we stage an alien invasion, maybe that'll be a way to just reset the economy. Reset the economy and also clamp down on human rights more than people realize. Yeah. And that's the other thing about this whole military industrial complex is that that's all becoming privatized now, you know, with companies like SpaceX and Palantir and, you know, all of this AI stuff that's happening where they're all merged. Yeah. Like the SpaceX stuff, the surveillance stuff with Palantir and all the AI, they're all working together and they're all taking all of this money from the government. And that's getting scary. Yes. Very much so. When you repeatedly hear what little regard some of these guys have for us as individuals, you know, we're just seen as a big collective. And they're all buying giant pieces of land and building bunkers in Argentina. Yeah. What's up with that? And New Zealand. What's up, what's up with that? Patagonia. There was, you mentioned New Zealand. When I was, I think in my first year with the FBI, my first wife had an in-long. He was a scientist for civilian scientists for NASA. And he was involved with what's called what was called the Kuiper aerial observatory. It was a KC-135 that had telescopes on it and such. And he said, hey, let me give you a tour of it. I said, okay. So I took a tour of this. And I noticed that all the crew members had military haircuts and were wearing military flight suits. And at the time, I was still kind of early in this. Despite my mentor, I'm thinking, wow, this seems to be a military crew on a NASA. But it was at Moffitt Field, which is a naval air station. And he told me that their mission was once or twice a year. In a particular, like few weeks of the year, they would fly to New Zealand because the part of the sky you could see from down there was their mission. They're at that time. That's what he told me. Their whole mission was just that piece of the sky that you can see down in New Zealand. And he didn't elaborate further. Since I've wondered, is it still there? The thing they were looking at, or do they still have a base in New Zealand? Oh, I don't know. It was the airplane that, you know, I thought, okay, and they would only go down certain times of the year. Yeah, it was this KC there. Yeah, the Kuiper Airborne Observatory. I think it's been retired. Yeah. Since then. We had this lady, you know what? I don't, I recall it being a different aircraft, but maybe it wasn't a 135. That's a wild looking plane. Yeah. We had this girl on the podcast the other day who, she's a spearfisher. And she said she went to this island off the coasts of the west coast of South America. Do you remember the name of that island? Coco Island. Coco Island. And there was this decommissioned NASA base there. And when, and when she asked about what that base was for, they said it was for monitoring the Apollo missions. Oh, but I had never heard. Yeah, punch in on. It wasn't Coco Island. It was, it was right. It was here. No, it was Coco Island. Coco Island was, was where people were getting bitten by sharks. I think that was, oh, was it? Yeah. No, this isn't the island. That's St Helena. That's where you know, I'm pretty sure it was Coco Island, bro. Punch it on Coco Island. I bet you find that NASA spot. Keep going. No NASA base. No, we were wrong. It was somewhere between, you just like see if you can find it. Yeah. Go back to her, if you go back to her episode and then look at the time stamps, it's in the beginning somewhere. That was weird. It was like, I want to say it was more, it was in the Pacific, bro. I don't think it was in, it was totally here because there, because there was no place. There was no land. I know, but I want to say it was more in the Pacific, in the Pacific ocean. I think you're in the wrong ocean. But yeah, that, that was kind of weird to me, whether it be a NASA base way over there that I never heard of. That was specifically used to monitor the Apollo missions. For the telemetry because particularly back then, with primitive technology, you literally had to have stations. And of course, again, during the Cold War, right? They're going to, they would be, oh, there it is. Oh, you're right. I was wrong. What's the name of the island? It is. Let's find out. It's no name. Ascension. Ascension. Ascension. That's what it was. Ascension Island. Yeah, but here's the old NASA site. No longer used to. Back in the '60s, I think, when they didn't have satellites. NASA is everywhere, man. I wonder what NASA bases they have in Antarctica. I'm sure they have something. A lot of people don't know that NASA is a, a national defense agency. Right. They wonder, how can they keep this secret? It's a civilian. I don't think it's, in its charter, they are subject to, if the DOD says you won't talk about this, they won't talk about it. So because that's in their charter, they have to keep things quiet. So whatever the guys saw up on the moon that wasn't reported to us, that, that would be why. So yeah. Are you familiar with the, the wild story about the airship that allegedly attempted to go to Mars in 1903? No. Yeah. This is, this is one of the more interesting airship stories in a book written by Tim Swartz and Sean Castile. And this came from Jim Keith. I don't know if you're familiar with the late Jim Keith. He was a conspiracy author. And a source told him about Nikola Tesla being commissioned to design an engineer and an airship for a private group that wanted to go to Mars with it. Crazy stuff. 1903, going to Mars, right? So I'm working on my research and I learned about all of her heavy side. All of her heavy side was a guy who was not a professional scientist or mathematician. He just was a kind of a genius. And heavy side developed this idea, Gravido Electromagnetics, EM, Jim. And hypothetically using this idea and technology that would make it work, you could create an energy bubble around an object. Okay. That again, hypothetically, you could have a life support system inside that bubble. And he came up with this in the 1890s. So here you have heavy side thinking about this kind of idea and developing it and publishing it. And then you have these guys in the following decade and in Jim, GM is something right up Tesla's alley, you have to wonder, okay, was there somebody crazy enough to say, hey, we've got this anti-gravity technology that our private little group has. We want an engineer something. We're going to use Jim for life support. Now, if they tried it, they could have died the minute they hit the Van Alamount's right. We don't know. But it is a story that exists out there that is, it's kind of a food for thought thing. And then going back to the nugget of truth, okay, did somebody try something like this? Who knows? Because you do have the UFO stories going forward into the 20th century. Yeah. This is where the breakaway thing, there is a gap admittedly in the research I've done. And as I said before, that gap is the early 20th century, okay, and then post-World War II. Because like what Dolan points out as far as breakaway civilizations and stuff I'm talking about, goes, yeah, that makes some rational sense. Post-World War II breakaway groups, that kind of thing. But then you have the 19th century research that I and some others have done, which show, okay, breakaway group potential. But there's that gap, that 1900 to the end of World War II, 1945. Yes. What were they doing? And all we have, as far as stories go, is this night, crazy 1903, you know, journey to Mars. things. So for what it's worth it's kind of out there. Yeah the thing with the towns and brown stuff is fascinating as well. Oh yeah. Because you know he was like on the cutting edge of all this stuff and like you mentioned earlier there was that that thing at Chapel Hill North Carolina that big convention where they had where he was there with I forget the other guy's name. There was like some brilliant mathematician there who his father him and his father's father was like on the cutting edge like of of anti gravity physics to wit Bryce to wit was one of them. Okay. And then you know right after that in the early 50s the whole thing went dark and then was also like a strange connection to an island in the Bahamas. Oh the whole thing with the Caroline group that dark journalist had wow. Check out his stuff on the Caroline group. T towns and brown. It's the ship that brown was on in the 20s. It's a yacht and they had this this this blows me away because I love weird stuff like this. There's an original edition of Alice in Wonderland. Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland which I believe includes Alice through the looking glass. In case and brown was on there on this boat. This is going back to the 1920s I think and this was encased and he said why is this underglass like this? Well in case the boat goes down the book will be saved. And yet okay what's going on here? You could obviously when you look at Alice through the looking glass you could say was there something Lewis Carroll encoded in this book about an understanding of other dimensions. What the heck and then there's brown and they're looking for Atlantis. Yeah and that gets into the whole thing where then what Cardinal Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken his daughter I think was one of the financiers of the hunt for Atlantis really with Jacques Cousteau and what? You need to Daniel list I'm telling you his he's the doctor. He's a journalist and he's done an outstanding series over the last my gosh six years or so. And so Colonel Sanders's daughter yeah was one of the people hunting funding the hunt for Atlantis. Yes. Yeah off of the coast of Cuba and you got Ernest Hemingway in the mix. You've got you know what it's yeah it's mind blowing when you consider how seriously these people were taking this so there's something there there's something there but again he's done the really outstanding research on that but this gap yeah that's it's a gap I can't explain but we have in this gap things like what we're talking about tea towns and brown the search for any gravity the the mysterious Wilson's right what my dad encountered in the late 50s was there there was the elder Wilson and the younger Wilson and what my dad said that he was one of the guys that witnessed this they had these I have no way to corroborate this okay this is hearsay from what my dad told me before he died these platforms that had a little like finger of metal sticking out of one corner and they would tap that finger and it would make it buoyant with anti-gravity and then they had a slide control that would make it go up and right down and I had already been an OSI agent when he told me this so I'm trained in experience in some interrogation and questioning techniques so yeah I used them on my dad because they I'm like okay is he BS in me or just and my conclusion is is that he himself really believed he was telling the truth so when he was telling this story to him he was telling the gods on his truth but the problem is my dad got into the air force about the time the air force was developing its own MK Ultra program and he was in the aerospace medicine division and the aerospace medicine division is where Air Force psychology is and Air Force psychology are the ones of all the military branches the Air Force got the most turned on with MK Ultra according to the sort of CIA sources oh yeah and they developed their own program and remember in 74 75 when the church committee made the CIA come clean about what they've been doing with MK Ultra related things the Air Force wasn't there to this day the Air Force has never been made to come clean with what they've been doing with MK Ultra and I probably one of my old bosses is like positively shut up with that crap yeah I think about that stuff all the time it's like with what they declassified in the church commission which is some fucking horrific stuff oh yeah the crap they did was I mean operation northwards you know some of this stuff is unimaginable yeah so like if that's what they let loose like what shit did they burn that will never see the light of death oh right and how long I argue that you know like like with my dad I you're home she was one of the people that was me burn all that yeah I think they put a false narrative it's possible that what they did was he was involved with some other classified thing and when that ended they were toying with MK Ultra as a means to keep secrets because back then it was new so like okay guys you're gonna work on this ultra secret project and when your time is done on the project we're gonna use this new technique so you won't even have to worry about saying the wrong thing and they put a false narrative in there in case they get the inkling to start talking about it and what comes up is this wild story right floating you know that's what I think is possible so of course my dad would believe it because that was what was laid in there now the rest the story is I'm still on active duty in the late 90s I'm told by someone in a superior rank to me that oh yeah they used hypnosis on your dad to suppress what happened in the 50s this is why I am convinced that you know that's that's what it was have you read Tom O'Neill's book chaos oh yes would you make of that oh boy there is something that jumped off the pages at me that I've not seen anyone pursue and I've been I was kind of keeping it close to vest but you asked wow Curtis Lemay the whole aerospace connection to these serial killers are you familiar with that no there's this weird there've been serial killers who's who either they themselves or they had a parent who worked in aerospace and here you have during the Manson period the stuff going on you got Curtis Lemay who's connected to and socially to this guy named Reeve Whitson oh yeah you've heard of Reeve Whitson Reeve Whitson is the CIA guy who was the first one to report the murders right yeah and he and he's the guy in that book that like spooked me the most exactly exactly that's what I'm talking about so you see what I'm seeing hmm Whitson right Whitson you just go what wait okay the thing that really makes the hair stand up on my neck was what did Colonel Tate really know about the murder of his daughter what did his wife share and Tate's dad share and Tate's father what's he was a Salesforce Colonel Tate and his wife and he became estranged when you go back and look at chaos again I get the impression that she suspected something or learned something he knew that he I wonder what Colonel Tate knew about what happened there at the house at night because you got Curtis Lemay in the mix there Tate and Lemay you know they were had to have been communicating okay you know because Lemay was tied in with a bunch of people in LA and stuff there and Lemay was kind of a mixed bag himself right what he ran for president with was it George Wallace or something yeah he was what the heck he was on a presidential ticket but yeah Reeve Whitson you know is the guy that really is the big question mark in that but yeah what else do we know about Reeve Whitson all I know is what's in that book and that is that you know and agency and so the story I'm vague on the story so Reeve Whitson somehow discovered the murders before anyone else did right he and there was another guy I think that was with him and this had to do with finding the eyeglasses right you remember that part where there was somebody's prescription eyeglasses that were at the house that I think were taken because they didn't want them to be found by the police right he made like an anonymous tip or something to someone really early that morning or a couple hours after the murders happened and we're missing a CIA guy makes an anonymous tip about the most infamous murders in American history. - Yeah. - And Sharon's car, remember, was at the shop. It was being worked on or something. So the hypothesis is that the killers didn't expect her to be there. And maybe this is horrible. I mean, when you think about it, 'cause the man's her father, but what did Colonel T. Paul Tate, what did he learn about what was going on? What did he, what maybe did he know? What might this had to do with could it have been someone who had been in aerospace or connected with aerospace, who was MK Ultra or whatever, was one of the, you know, and went nuts, and that was the connection. They realized, oh, one of our, another one of our own. You know, who knows? We're just kind of throwing spaghetti on the wall with this right now, because it is a thread that doesn't make sense yet. You're right. CIA guy, he's the one to first make the call. He's socially connected to Curtis Lemay, a big Air Force general, who's very much involved with aerospace. - Wait, Witson was? - No, no, no. Yeah, Witson and Lemay. - Oh, I didn't know Witson was tied to Lemay. - Yeah, they, they, or we go back and read the book. They were, that's how I recall it. - So Witson was connected to Curtis Lemay, and Tate's father was also connected. - Was a US Air Force colonel or a US Air Force? - A US Air Force acquainted with Lemay. But you have, and Lemay's presence represents, why does this aerospace connection keep popping up? Well, that could go back to T-Towns and Brown, and the anti-gravity and all, and all, not directly to T-Towns and Brown, but to murders. But to that element of exotic research. Like, remember, that was going on through the post-war, the '50s, into the '60s, and these guys who developed our advanced aerospace technology also, you know, were from the same culture and professional culture and such, that developed MK-Ultra, and where did they all come from? Germany, Nazi Germany. So again, if you have this post-war fascist organization that's driving our aerospace, driving whatever MK-Ultra is doing to our society or being used to do to our society, which we learned some of that through the church committee hearings with the CIA. Maybe there is your aerospace connection, or maybe that would explain the aerospace connection. And, you know, because if one of their own has lost their minds and is out there doing these nefarious murders, they're going to want to cover it up is what I'm getting to. So Whitson might have been the guy to get in there and clean up any connection to these guys. Right. That's what I think. That's fucking crazy, man. - Yeah, Whitson, we don't know, I think the surface, I wonder what O'Neal found out about Whitson that he hasn't talked about. - Yeah, I need to give him a little, I need to hit up Old Tommy after this. - Yeah, see if you'll talk about Whitson. You know, I've wondered, like I said, my mentor passed away. He would have been my first go to, okay. I need to talk to you about Curtis LeMay and this other guy and, you know, it probably would have been one of those, we'll talk when I can see you. 'Cause that's usually when he would tell me the wildest stuff. It's never, obviously, over the phone. But he's gone, so I don't really have someone like that. And, you know, O'Neal's size is not gonna give me anything. I mean, I've been out of that for since '90. Now, that house, the Tate House. That wasn't on the '33 latitude, was it? - Boy, what has that? I haven't looked at that. It is within, it's definitely within the range. You gotta remember the way these latitude lines go when we look on a map, it's like a skinny line when people draw this out. But you're talking, when you get down on the ground, it's a wide influence of energy. So, essentially, it's going to be affected by this energy. Anything through LA and all of that. - So, a very high level breakdown, this idea of Eurotus Book about the '33 latitude. And Disneyland and all the connections to it. I'm generally aware of all the historical events that happened on the '33 latitude. - Sure. - But I've always wondered, like, is this just sort of weird coincidence? Were cherry-picking stuff? Or is there some deeper connection to this? - Well, to me, the big pointer to that, to answer your question, as far as Disneyland is concerned, is the guy who engineered it. The guy named Cornelius Vanderbilt Wood, CV Wood. When the Disney's were first taking seriously the idea of building the park, they went to SRI, the Stanford Research Institute, and they were assigned two guys. One of them was a guy named, I think, Harry Price. He was the numbers guy, you know, the economics of this blah, blah, blah. But Wood was the engineer for them, the big thinker for them, who was hired to help them locate where to build the park. The Disney's had an idea for different ideas. Wood is the one that told him about the Anaheim site. He said, "Hey, there's 40 acres of citrus grove and Anaheim that I think would be the perfect location for Disneyland." So he's the guy that would have known about the intersection of the three Toleric currents. Popularly misidentified is Layline. So Layline is a different thing than a Toleric current. But the Toleric current is an extreme low frequency energy that runs through the planet. When a planet is forming Toleric currents help form the terrain when it's malleable, you know, in its volcanic stage. And then when things solidify, the Toleric current continues to flow through the terrain that has formed. This is a real scientific thing. And a guy like C.V. Wood and S.R.I. an organization like S.R.I. would have known about Toleric current. It's an engineering thing. So Wood selects this, and the Disney say, "Oh, okay," and he goes, "Yeah, having an Anaheim and the numbers guy price said, "Yeah, having an Anaheim is in that proof true." So C.V. Wood was a guy that was friends with a guy named Thomas Swift, okay? Tom Swift, who was a millionaire philanthropist, and very famous for going on a search for the Yeti, the abominable snowman. But he was also very much into psychic phenomena. And he started what was called the Mind Science Foundation with C.V. Wood is one of the founders. So in C.V. Wood, you have a guy who's aware of the Toleric currents, okay? And he would have been aware if we're right about the intensity or whatever the intersection of the three Toleric currents in Disneyland, what we know is Disneyland, he's the guy that would have known that that was there. But he's also into psychic things. So what I argue is that he engineered Disneyland, physical Disneyland to work as a psychotronic device on human consciousness. 'Cause he had the carousel placed right on top of where this alleged intersection of three Toleric currents are. You got three lines, the energy's more intensified. And the hypothesis is that the carousel in its rotation throughout the day draws up and distributes the energy through the park. Now Disneyland is built in a bowl, okay? It has this berm going around it because it was built down into a bowl. So you have the carousel drawing up the energy, distributing it through the park. But when it gets to the berm, it turns back in and it kind of stays contained within the park. Why would he have done this to enhance the experience of the park gore? But Wood's the kind of guy because of his interest, he would have been aware of the latitude 33 stuff that you well know and has been talked about a lot. He's the kind of guy. Now, Walt ended up firing him by, like, I think, 59 or 60 or maybe before then, because he didn't like CV Wood going around saying, "I'm the guy who built Disneyland." Walt was like, "Hey, wait a minute." This wasn't your idea, buddy. So CV Wood left and he was involved with the building of six flags, the first six flags. Part one. outside of Dallas, I think, and he did some of the same principles because one of those alert current situations goes through where the JFK assassination site was and through Dallas and so he attempted and that park is still open, right, from what I understand for years, but a couple of other parks that he engineered were not placed on the alert current and they didn't succeed. So it's kind of interesting that Disneyland is, you know, I think that they disengaged the device when they redesigned fantasy land in 1982 that it does not work. They disengaged the device to move the carousel. What is the carousel? It's the merry-go-round. It's just literally a merry-go-round, but a rotating spinning device, this is my hypothesis, a rotating spinning device on top of that intersection of the the the the tolerant current draws up that energy and distributes it out. The spin draws it up, you know, and as it's rotating it, spreads it out. That's the hypothesis as crazy as it sounds, and it could just be a nutty idea, but, you know, I go into it in the book why the why's and where fours and the experience that I had there in 81 with the old man Alfred, you talk about synchronicity. I had in February of 81 when this happened, I met the old man Alfred, and then 11 years later I'm in Manhattan working for the FBI. I'm at a bookstore, and the guy introduced himself, he said his name is Alfred, back in 1981, '92 I'm in a bookstore in Manhattan, the Coliseum bookstore, and I see this book the old straight track, which is about ley lines in England, and it was written in 1925. It was written by a guy named Alfred Watkins, so I open up the book, and there's a photo of Alfred Watkins, and I'm looking at the man I saw at Disneyland in 1981, also named Alfred, and I'm like this this ain't funny, this is impossible, and I learned later that the year that I saw that book, the Alfred Watkins book, was the year that CV would die. So, synchronicity, yeah, and it's years later that I'm researching all of this for my book on Disneyland, that I learned that that CV would die that same year that I see this pick, and I, I mean I committed it to a book, the guy in that photo, the Alfred Watkins photo in that book, it's got the white hair and the beard and everything, that's the man I saw at Disneyland, at least a doppelganger or a twin of him, he said his name was Alfred, what's weird is I can't remember his voice, because Alfred Watkins was British, this guy would have had a British accent, right? I don't remember his voice, very one of the weirdest experiences of my life, and you know, I wondered, and I go into it in the book, okay, what would this have had to do with CV would in this carousel in Disneyland as a psychotronic device, a psychotronic device, yeah, and what was the end goal of that? The end goal, in my opinion a lot of people come at me and say, oh see that proves that Walt Disney was evil in doing that, right? No, look, remember Disney fired this guy, it was CV would who designed it, and from what I've learned of CV would, there was no evil intent at all, it was truly to just, the guy was in the psychic phenomena, he's like an early new age or whatever, like, hey man, let's enhance the experience of this park, right? Let's see if we can enhance an experience of a place by actively using this to lyric energy, I really think it was a purely innocent thing. So that, yeah, that's that's what I think the goal was, and then by 82 when they redesigned Fantasy Land, they moved the carousel back, I think it was 30 feet, the measurement I did, and that would have removed the carousel off of the intersection and effectively disengaged. Is it still there? Is the carousel still there? Oh yeah, oh really? Oh yeah, yeah. Find a photo of that carousel. The King Arthur carousel. What do you think the connection is between the 33rd latitude and all this create like the JFK assassination, the Trinity test, hero Shima, and then allegedly like Jerusalem, it passes right through Jerusalem. I think that yeah, there it is. Wow. The King Arthur carousel spelled with the French double R. Now technically it is not a carousel. It is a merry-go-round because it's all horses. And there used to be mixed colors of horses, but the white horse was so popular that Disneyland made them all white horses. I think that that is one of the regions on the earth that there is just some natural energy phenomenon thing going on that people in the know tap into. And it enhances, you know, it's been written about the Trinity bomb test, the atomic bomb test, where there was this result that was more than the sum of its parts. There was some extra, and that's in that zone. You know, the people who perpetrated the JFK assassination. Have you read King Kill 33? It's an essay. I haven't heard it, but I've listened to people talk about it. Oh wow. Oh wow, because it involves the goddess Hecatee, which shows up in all of my stuff, even when I don't expect her. There's something going on with the goddess Hecatee and somebody's understanding of her or their application of things to do with, you know, the goddess Hecatee for whatever it means. But in King Kill 33, there's a connection there plus other things with the JFK assassination, which shows that the perpetrators of it, somebody involved with the perpetrators of it, wanted to do it right there on that tolerant current. That's why the site was chosen, because think about it. They could have killed him anywhere, but they chose that site. I think it's just because somebody believed. Now, as Rick Spencer and I say, and the first empire of the will book, you know, I say to the reader, you don't have to believe yourself that this stuff works. Keep in mind that what we're suggesting is the perpetrators believed in it. So I give people that distance. If you yourself don't want to believe that the tolerant current somehow played into the JFK assassination or these other things, the point is that somebody believed it. Do we know for a fact that there's anybody connected to the JFK assassination that talked about this or believed in it? Not that I have found or heard. You know, there is, it's through analysis, which is what the King kill 33 SA shall be downer'd in Michael Cole, I think. Yeah, it's definitely worth a read. There are things that I've learned through exposure to the ID, you know, synchronicities and this weird phenomena that whether what you're initially looking at is true or real, things emerge. It's like pulling the threads lead you to a position where what you think you're going to may not be so, but something wanted you there, something wanted you there so that it could, you could be exposed to something or you could see something. And I know that sounds vague. When you start looking at synchronicities and then have you heard of karmic frequency? Probably not. An associate of mine, seshary, another amazing author. He introduced me to karmic frequency. Here's an example, a simple example. Okay. We have karmic frequencies with people, you know, mine with my dad, okay, has to do with the number nine, more specifically than 7. Why is that? My dad was born in 1936, 36 is a multiple of nine. When he was 27 years old, another multiple of nine, in 1963, another multiple of nine, I was born. When I was 27, multiple of nine, in 1990, a multiple of nine, my son was born. Now, my son hasn't had any kids that were aware of, you know, and he's already, he's going to be 36 in December. So unless it jumps another nine, now he is living with a girlfriend that he's had for two years. But, and he could be 36 years old, you know, if they have a child, which just expands at another nine years, but that's an example of karmic frequency, like I have with my dad, this weird thing where we both are born in a nine year and at a nine age we have a child, a son born in another nine year. That's a real cheap example of a karmic frequency. The karmic frequencies could also be, you take a timeline and you see the symmetry of events. When you start looking at karmic frequencies, synchronicities multiply. Your experience with synchronicities multiply. You start seeing more of them. This is where it gets dangerous. Maybe it's Mavily. Some people can go number 23 with this stuff by, they can't stop looking at these things. At some point, when I was investigating the empire, the wheel thing, that was my first deep experience with karmic frequency and synchronicity and strange things. You start to be able to see, holy smokes, I didn't see that before. I didn't know that before, now I recognize it, what it is. It can be for some people, it can be overwhelming because they can't stop seeing the patterns. That's what I think. When you are experiencing a lot of synchronicity, you're seeing the threads of the very fabric of reality. When you're looking at that closely, that's something that most humans don't encounter in their mundane, everyday lives. You can't unsee it, and that can be hazardous for some folks who don't know when to step back. Right. I had to step to job you crazy. Yeah. From the empire, the wheel stuff, after the second book, I had to step back and work on something else that had emerged. The weird thing that was happening with this, when I was pulling certain threads and all this, was I did the latitude 33 book, and I was following up on the Toleric Currents because the three that intersect continue to go out through Southern California, and a couple of them go out towards the east from LA into the inland empire, which where I lived. I thought, "Okay, let me see if there's any reports of paranormal stuff ghosts or whatever." So I'm looking up ghost stories in the particular part of town, and I find one, and I go talk to the lady who posted it, and she goes, "Oh, you've got to go look it up. It's this lady that was found dead in a lake in 1915, okay." And she's haunting the mall there, okay. So ghost story, right? So I go to the special collections room, and I start looking at the newspapers, and I find six other deaths. The agent takes over, and I'm going, "Wait a minute, and then that explodes into this empire of the wheel thing." The murder of children and the spiritualists involved, and this weird thing, that weird thing, darker, darker, darker. I'm followed from my home, I'm followed around, I'm being watched when you're working on this book. When I was investigating the empire of the wheel stuff, I had gone to the coroner's office and requested a record from 1915. This was in 2009 or 10, 2009, I think it was. And I requested a record from 1915, almost a hundred years before, and I'd go in and the lady says, "Okay, yeah, we'll have this for you, we'll call you when it's ready, okay." So the next day, I'm going out to run some errands, and there's a guy parked in front of my house. Now remember, I've spent much of my career being a surveillance expert, okay? I could follow my—anybody with my experience, I'm not special. I could follow my own mom around all day, and she wouldn't know it was me, okay? It's just you just learn how to do it. Surveillance is my thing, so I know it when I see it, okay? Sometimes I'm also trained in experienced encounter surveillance, anyway. This guy was avert. I mean, he made the multiple turns with me, it was a message. Yes. Intimidation. Yeah. And so finally, he comes back. He ends up coming right back, parking in front of my house, and I confront him. I walk up to him. "Gosh, can I help you?" And he's on the phone. He's texting wildly to somebody and won't respond to me, and then he drives off. Didn't even look at you. Yeah. Well, no, he looked at me, but he was texting. So a couple days later, I'm called, "Oh, Mr. Bosley, your record's ready." So I go back to the San Bernardino County Corner's office, a same woman who was all chatty and nice, like a mom, I go in and I say, "Yeah, I'm here to get my thing," and the receptionist says, "Yeah, okay, wait a second," she gets on there, and she whispers. The same lady comes out who was so nice three days before, and she's seething. She's looking at me with hatred in her eyes. She goes, "Mr. Bosley, here's your phone," like, "Thank you." I tried to make small talk, and she wasn't, I asked her question and she goes, "No, I'm like, okay, I'm out of here." I'm thinking, "What the heck, I'm getting information that's almost a century old. What's going on here?" I think it was the following week or so after that, and a guy who would struck up a conversation with me, we'd become acquainted in a coffee shop, talking about Brown Mountain. And the lights that go up and down in strange phenomena, he says, "Hey, I want to introduce you to a friend of mine who lives up in the north end of town." That's where the old money is in San Bernardino, so one day I go, "Yeah, okay, I'll go with you." So I ride up there with him. This guy is a wandering bishop. Are you familiar with those? No. This could be Vaganti. Oh. David Ferry, for example, from the JFK milieu, was a wandering bishop. Peter Leventa writes about these wandering bishops. A lot of guys who are wandering bishops are into like black magic or ritual magic and strange arcane things, okay? What a wandering bishop is, they're in a line of consecration, which the top of the line is a legitimate bishop recognized by Rome, okay? Only the people they're consecrating are not recognized by Rome. Once you're a bishop, you can do this. You can make anyone a bishop. I have that on personal authority from someone who is a bishop. He explained this to me. He says, "Walter, it would take about five or six minutes." He goes, "You could walk out of my house here and you in the eyes of God and whatever you are a bishop and the church can't do anything about it, but that's what these wandering bishops are." So this guy, I'm brought to his house. He's got the big cross. Yeah. He's wearing scrubs and sneakers. We go into his house and his living room is set up like he's holding court and he and the guy who brought me there are having this conversation about this third party about, "Oh yeah, he's been going around town blah, blah, blah." And as I'm listening to this, they're describing things I've been doing while I've been researching and investigating this empire, the whale mystery. So they're very, not very coily or coily, however you want to put it, talking, they're letting me know that I'm being watched and followed because they're saying, "Oh yeah, and he went over here." And I'm sitting here thinking, "Widdingly knowing, they're winningly letting you know this." They're right in front of me saying this and I'm sitting here thinking, "Guys, really, I'm sitting right here, but I went along, I played, and so then we went to lunch." And then after that, we're coming back to his neighborhood and the guy who's the bishop says to the guys, the mutual acquaintance, he goes, "Hey, I want to go by, or the mutual acquaintance says to the bishop, "Oh, remember, I want to go by that house and check it out." "Oh yeah, the bishop says, and they drive, make a couple of turns, and I recognize exactly where they're going, and I kid you not, they park right next door to the house of one of my sources for Empire of the Wheel that I had talked to a couple weeks before. They park right there, and it's this real estate open house. And the bishop says, "Oh, I'm going to sit here and make a phone call, you go in with him. So I go in, and all he does is this cursory walk around the house, and then he disappears. I'm walking around, and I'm thinking, they're giving me a message. They're telling me they know who I'm talking to, because what are the odds that it would be right next door to one of the sources that could give me family information dating back a century. In other words, information they wouldn't want me to have. So I finally walk out of the house, I'm walking to the house looking for the other guy, and when I, the guy's in there, kind of look at me and say, "He's out in the car." Oh, okay, thank you. So he's out in the car and he and the bishop are back and forth. And then I get in the car and it's like, well, I got to go, I got something to do. So then I ride back and I look this guy up immediately and I find out that he's a piscope of Agonte. He's a wandering bishop. So that's kind of a red flag. And then I contact my mentor. Now my mentor's the kind of guy that never had me shy away from dangerous situations. This is a guy that got me into my federal agentry and my spook work and stuff, okay? When I told him this, this was the only time he ever said, break off contact, these guys mean you harm. He basically told me they mean me harm. So I'm like, yes, sir, you know, you got that. And I, not always willing to just leave things alone. I ran into the guy at the coffee shop again and I was told, you know, have nothing to do with them because as I just said, but he kept asking me questions. So I wrote down a piscope of Agonte on a piece of paper and I said, hey, tell me about that. And then I, sometime and I walked off, oh, he got livid. He got really angry at me because he knew that, you know, that I had looked into this guy and found out. Now, this guy was also a, had an article written about him in the 60s or 70s, living in a haunted house. Which guy? The, the, the bishop guy. Okay. He had been involved with paranormal investigation, that kind of thing. So he was one of these typical wandering bishop guys, but clearly he let it be known that people from his camp for whatever reason, whoever he represented was watching what I was doing, investigating a case that was almost a hundred years old. Rick Spencer and I, when we wrote the first book, we were in remain the only people in a century to have written about this publicly. This was swept under the rug. Holy shit. Holy shit. These seven deaths in San Bernardino in 1915. This is some dark secret in San Bernardino history that the old family, somebody among the old families and old money, they don't want known. And what, where it really gets wild, okay, how the airship mystery comes into it. I was telling you about this Frank Rosasco guy. Okay, where do you find out who I think the dead woman was that was found floating in the lake in 1915, subsequent research and continued investigation? The woman they obviously didn't want you looking into. The woman. Oh, when, when she was, we didn't talk about that, but you're familiar with the basics. When she was found floating in the lake on November 19, 1915, okay, there, she, there was no purse, there was no identifying ID, nothing on her. The labels of her clothing were scratched out or torn out, shoes, skirt, somebody had scratched out this stuff or removed the labels completely. Somebody didn't want her known or maybe she herself didn't want to be known, okay? And there were elements in town because it was World War I that lead Rick and I to be convinced that there was some type of espionage activity involved with the railroad there. And sure enough, during this time, during this particular period of a year or two, there was a ship captured off the coast of San Diego that was smuggling German arms, German rifles and ammunition and such to India. Because remember World War I, Germany's at war with England, they want to keep England busy on two fronts, India was in its early days of fighting for independence. So there was this thing called the Hindu German Alliance that was in California. Now I come from a career of counterintelligence and stuff and I had never heard of this until I'm investigating the empire of the will thing. It's something that's been forgotten in history. So there were agents from India and agents from Germany and agents from England all over California. Whoa. And San Bernardino, I think it still is, but for like a hundred years, was the main railroad hub in Southern California. What was discovered was is that the Germans were bringing arms and munitions through the Gulf of Mexico into Texas, putting them on trains, transporting them across the southwest, sending them to San Diego. And the only way you could do that via the Southwest was transit through San Bernardino. So there would have been German and Indian agents making sure those shipments were on their way to San Diego and you would have had the British there keeping an eye on the German agents. So all this espionage going on. Then there's the description of the woman. And I decided to really dig in and maybe identify who she was. I looked at missing person's lists from the early, from 1900 up to that year. And I was surprised to find one name on there because I didn't realize she was considered a missing person, but there she was. And that is at a place, the legendary friend of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. She virtually matches the description of the dead woman. When this woman had a very public funeral after being labeled a suicide, which in 1915 they did not do that, give public funerals for servants and no church would officiate. But the local Episcopal minister gave her a very public funeral. And then after that, he and his wife packed the stuff, their stuff up and left to San Bernardino. I'm going to tell you who he is in just a moment. But it indicates to me that he knew who the woman was. And to this funeral arrived this group of women from San Francisco to be her Paul bearers. So these women in San Francisco took very personal interest in this unidentified dead woman, who a name was slapped onto her with this fake suicide note. Rick and I and most people who read the stuff agree that that wasn't her real identity. But at a place was and is on a missing person's list. Harry Longboss Sundance Kid is documented as bringing her from South America to San Francisco in 1906. So her last known whereabouts was San Francisco. And you, you know, nine years later, you have this mysterious woman floating dead in a lake, poisoned and drowned. And you have these women from San Francisco come down and it seems, it seems really thin until you start digging into the counterintelligence history and you start digging into the specific players. The Episcopal minister was a guy named Walter Franklin Prince, okay. Now at the time and still to this day, a lot of people in the US intelligence community go to the Episcopal church. There's a lot of Episcopalians, the US intelligence community has been for over a century. With the Episcopalian church, you have this group of secular nuns. Now the woman that was found in the lake was found to be a 30 something year old virgin. Okay. These secular nuns are nuns who are like civilians. They're not employed by the Episcopal church, but they take the vows and live that way and they help, they do what nuns do for churches for the Episcopal church. At the saloon where Edda, we're told Edda meets butch and sun dance, okay. There was a local order of Episcopal nuns, okay. And they provided services to the brothels. I argue and present the evidence that Edda was an Episcopal nun. She was nobody's wife or girlfriend. And it gets even wilder because I have found what I think is documented evidence that Harry Langebaugh, the sun dance kid, was essentially an undercover government agent. When you read about the robberies and such, Harry Langebaugh, okay, who was, had the reputation of being a really good marksman, never shot anyone. You never, when you read about the robberies, other members of the gang shot posse members in law enforcement. But gee, the sun dance kid, maybe he was like a stormtrooper and Star Wars just couldn't hit anything, you know. But seriously, a guy who was a pistol ear, a known to be a good marksman and he never shot, well, who is it that hangs with a group of criminals, you know, that never commits a crime? That never commits the crime or never shoots the cops. Well, that's your undercover cop right there. And I had this. suspicion from the first book because when the woman's body was found, there were a lot of newspaper articles that they were trying to identify and they said, "Hey, this mysterious woman blah, blah, blah." This man came to look at her, gave a name. He went to look at her. They said he got real quiet and then he disappeared and then they never found him again. I suspect, I'm not sure I could be wrong about all of this, but I suspect that that might have been hairy long ago. He had, for whatever reason, Edda working for at the time would have been the secret service. There's reasons for connecting in the book. I think she came to San Bernardino, went to San Bernardino because it had to do with the SB knowledge activity going on. The secret service, this is before the FBI. The secret service was the FBI of the day. They handled all national security, counter espionage, counterintelligence things. I argue that she had been affiliated with the secret service through the Pinkerton's because, remember, Alan Pinkerton, the guy who was Abraham Lincoln's security guy, he created the secret service. The Pinkerton family in the secret service, well like this, so she, I think, got connected to the secret service via the Pinkerton's because she was probably working on behalf of the Pinkerton's. I think that hairy long ago was injected into the hole in the wall gang as an undercover agent. They weren't partners, they weren't lovers, they weren't spouses, they were partners. And then since then, oh boy, I can send it to you. I've got a 10-page document that shows all the documented what I think is evidence that hairy long ago was working for ONI during the South America years and butch was recruited into that. Jesus. Yeah, yeah. That's Jesus' right. And they were that crazy about it, tracking you down and surveilling you in 2015. Yeah, there's that, there's the airship guy, the mysterious people from Sonora come and get Frank Rosasco, there's who I think was at a place. Oh, and my mentor was alive at that time when I had the moment in my research where I realized, oh my God. And he had been, you know, he had, when he retired, he retired with 44 years in the Intel community. He was CIA. And his mentor, he didn't tell me, he talked about his mentor in, without identifying for 13 years. Finally in '99, he told me who his mentor was and it was Angleton, James, Jesus Angleton. No. That's what I said. I go, are you kidding? And he told me the whole story, how he met him. So, this was a guy that knew stuff and I contacted him and I said, at a place has turned up. He's central to my, and, you know, I, and he said, you got it, you nailed it, it was her. And he wouldn't tell me anymore. So this is one of the reasons why I'm very, that and the physical description and all the other circumstances, I'm pretty confident that at a place lies buried in San Bernardino Mountain View Cemetery under the name Korra Stanton. And who are the other six murders? What I think was going on, she got caught up, and there were two things going on. There was, this is where I mentioned Walter Franklin Prince, was the Episcopal Minister. I think the reason he gave her a public funeral is because he was aware that she was an intel agent and he knew she wasn't a suicide. So he showed her the respect by giving her the public thing, but the other side of that coin with him is Walter Franklin Prince. When he left San Bernardino, he went to Boston to become the number two man at the American Psychical Research Association, which he, in the 1920s, became the head of the number one man. And he, more famously during the 20s, teamed up with Harry Houdini to investigate corrupt spiritualist mediums, okay? And if you know your Harry Houdini history, the spiritualist murdered him. Are you familiar with Harry Houdini's death? I've heard. We actually had somebody tell us about this on a podcast a couple of months ago, but I don't remember. Harry Houdini was murdered by corrupt spiritualist mediums. They basically told Robert and the spiritualist mediums, yeah, it was big money. They had people in D.C., including the White House, that would consult them, and they threatened Houdini. Read a book titled, I think it's the secret life of Houdini, but the authors are Calusch, K-A-L-U-S-H, and Slomin. Okay. Yeah. Calusch and Slomin. Harry Houdini, America's first superhero or something like that, they go into the murder of Houdini. There's other sources. The first spiritualist temple ever established in the state of California was right there in San Bernardino. I argue that there was some shady stuff going on with the spiritualist in San Bernardino, and that was probably Prince's Walter Franklin Prince's first bad taste of it. I think. I think he somehow, oh, by the way, Houdini, who was also working for the secret service at that time. Yes, that's known history, that's well-documented. He was performing in LA. He was in Southern California during all this mystery. So you got a guy who's a famous stage performer, but he's also an asset of the secret service. You've got him in Southern California, and you have this woman who I think was the secret service agent at a place, and I can't help but think there's some type of connection between Prince and Houdini back then, and they were aware of something going on with the spiritualist. So, to answer your question, I think some dark element of the spiritualist community in San Bernardino was conducting a very bad black magic ritual with these seven deaths, because each one where they died, it's mapped out in the book, occurred on a alert current. From the line or an intersection of alert current, somebody murdered, all made sure all these people died, connected to that alert current system. The book also, oh, yeah, the zodiac killer did the same exact thing with the seven classic. Now, remember, he said there were 37 more that the police hadn't found, but of the seven classic attacks of which I think only one person survived, they were all on alert currents. That's mapped in the book too. There's a map showing you that. Yeah, this is beyond weird. Beyond. Yeah, there was a predictive, I'll share the little predictive tidbit with you too. Take a leave it for what it's worth. Okay. In the book published in 2011, Rick and I say, in this book, yes, in part of the wheel. In part of the wheel, yeah, in part of the wheel. Rick and I say in 2011 that we fear that something's going to emerge in San Bernardino Valley in 2015, because it'll be the 100th year anniversary of what happened in 1930. In 2015, as I told you, the goddess Hecate turns up thematically throughout all of this. Her number is 100. The number 100, that's where we get, why is her number 100? It goes back to ancient times. And this is why certain things that have to do with the number 100 have the HEC or whatever because it's connected to Hecate. Like often it's in a set of two fifties. Now we talk about the zodiac killer in there because the zodiac killer essentially emerged 50 years after what happened in San Bernardino. So we were concerned, we voiced a concern that, okay, 50 years after that, 100 years after what happened in San Bernardino. And we thought it would be a new serial killer, unfortunately, you know, that would emerge in 2015. So on the 100th anniversary of victim number six, or the hedges, the 2nd of December 2015, I'm standing there having a cup of coffee in my kitchen. And the news report comes on of the terrorist attack in San Bernardino. Now I've had a map since 2008 of all the Toleric lines in San Bernardino. when it said where this was going on. I knew it was a one hundredth anniversary of one of the victims. I'm like, oh my God. So I looked on the map and the building sure enough where there's Leyland. That's the first thing. Then as we learn, the terrorists were associated and claimed a connection to ISIS. ISIS is an Egyptian name also of a goddess that is connected to Hecate. So dedicated to ISIS, one could say dedicated to Hecate. There were 14 victims or to hedges who was killed on the 2nd of December, 1915, was 14 years old. So there's some synchronicities for you. ISIS, Hecate, 14, San Bernardino. You're seeing fractals, Walter. It's like worst the thing with the red lines. Give me the cigarette. But I mean, we say four years before that, we think something bad is going to happen in 2015 in San Bernardino. I mean, what are the odds on the 130 fucking crazy man, unless the sick bastards read the book, which really causes me off if that's the case. But they were they were properly taken care of. So, you know, weirdness. Lots of weirdness, man. Jesus Christ, you blew my mind. I got lots of reading to do. Well, do we just did three hours? Holy smoke. Thank you so much. This has been fascinating. Oh, great. We'll have to do part two down the road. I think so for it. I think so. I think there's a lot more that we can cover. Oh, God. Yeah, just for me to explain the stuff I threw at you. That is a hundred percent, man. So, so this, I'm sure this book is available everywhere. Books are sold. No, actually, my books are available in one place and that's Lulu.com, LUL.com. Lulu.com. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. We'll make sure we link that below for folks. Thank you. Is there any other anything else we should tell people about like where to find your work or anything else? Well, they can, if they mander over to the Walter Bosley channel at YouTube, they can see me yapping about stuff there. Cool. You know, that's I think that that will probably be enough for them. All right. Well, I'll make sure we link that below as well as LUL.com for folks to find out. And thanks again, bro. This is awesome. Thank you. I really appreciate this. My pleasure. Good time. All right. Good night, everybody.