#432 – Kevin Spacey: Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life

The following is a conversation with Kevin Spacey, a two-time Oscar-winning actor who has starred in Seven, The Usual Suspects, American Beauty, and House of Cards. He is one of the greatest actors ever, creating haunting performances of characters who often embody the dark side of human nature. Seven years ago, he was cut from House of Cards and canceled by Hollywood and the World when Anthony Rapp made an allegation that Kevin Spacey sexually abused him in 1986. Anthony Rapp then filed a civil lawsuit seeking $40 million. In this trial, and all civil and criminal trials that followed, Kevin was acquitted. He has never been found guilty nor liable in a court of law. In this conversation, Kevin makes clear what he did and what he didn't do. I also encourage you to listen to Kevin's Dan Wooten and Alison Pearson interviews for additional details and responses to the allegations. As an aside, let me say that one of the principles I operate under for this podcast and in life is that I will talk with everyone, with empathy and with backbone. For each guest, I hope to explore their life's work, life's story, and what and how they can help me. For each guest, I hope to explore their life's work, what and how they think, and do so honestly and fully. The good, the bad, and the ugly. The brilliance and the flaws. I won't whitewash their sins, but I won't reduce them to a worse possible caricature of their sins either. The latter is what the mass hysteria of internet mobs too often does, often rushing to a final judgment before the facts are in. I will try to do better than that, to respect due process, in service of the truth. And I hope to have the courage to always think independently and to speak honestly, from the heart, even when the eyes of the outrage mob are on me. Again, my goal is to understand human beings at their best and at their worst. 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And now, dear friends, here's Kevin Spacey. you played a serial killer in the movie seven your performance was one of if not the greatest portrayal of a murderer on screen ever what was your process of becoming him john doe the serial killer the truth is i didn't get the part um i had been in los angeles making a couple of films swimming with sharks and usual suspects and then i did a film called outbreak that morgan freeman was in and i went in to audition for david fincher in probably late november of 94 94 and i auditioned for this part and didn't get it and i went back to new york and i think they started shooting like december 12th and i'm in new york i'm back in my wonderful apartment on west 12th street and my mom has come to visit for christmas and it's december 23rd and it's like seven o'clock at night and my phone rings and it's arnold copelson who's the producer of seven and he's very jovial and he's very friendly and he says how you doing and i said fine and he said listen do you remember that film you came in for seven i said yeah yeah absolutely he goes well turns out that uh we hired an actor and we started shooting and then yesterday david fired him and david would like you to get on a plane on sunday and come to los angeles and start shooting on tuesday and i was like okay would it be imposing to say can i read it again because it's it's been a while now and i'd like to so they sent a script over i read the script that night i thought about it um and i i had this feeling i i i can't even quite describe it but i had this feeling that it would be really good if i didn't take billing in the film and the reason i felt that was because i knew that by the time this film would come out it would be the last one of the three movies that i just shot the fourth one and if any of those films are going to come out i'm going to have to broke through or did well if it was going to be Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Kevin Spacey. And you don't show up for the first 25, 30, 40 minutes. People are going to figure out who you're playing. So people should know that you are the serial, you play the serial killer in the movie, and the serial killer shows up like more than halfway through the movie. Very late in the movie. And when you say billing, it's like the posters, the VHS cover, everything. You're gone. You're not there. Not there. And so New Line Cinema told me to go fuck myself, that they absolutely could use my picture and my image. And this became a little bit of a, I'd say, 24-hour conversation. And it was Fincher who said, I actually think this is a really cool idea. So the compromise was, I'm the first credit at the end of the movie when the credits start. So I got on. I'm playing on that Sunday. And I flew to Los Angeles. And I went into where they were shooting. And I went into the makeup room. And David Fincher was there. And we were talking about what should I do? How should I look? And I just had my hair short for Outbreak because I was playing a military character. And I just looked at the hairdresser and I said, do you have a razor? And Fincher went, are you kidding? And I said, no. He goes, if you shave your head, I'll shave mine. So we both shaved our heads. And then I started shooting the next day. So my long-winded answer to your question is that I didn't have that much time to think about how to build that character. What I think, in the end, Fincher was able to do so brilliantly with such terror was to set the audience up to meet this character. I think the last scene, the ending scene, and the car ride leading up to it, where it's mostly on you, in conversation with Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt, is one of the greatest scenes in film history. So people will somehow, I didn't see the movie, there's these five murders that happen that are inspired by five of the seven deadly sins. And the ending scene is inspired, represents the last two deadly sins. And there's this calm subtlety about you in your performance. It's just terrifying. Maybe in contrast with Brad Pitt's performance, that's also really strong. But that is a contrast. In the contrast is the terrifyingness that you get in the audience that builds up to the twist at the end, or the surprise at the end, with the famous what's in the box from Brad Pitt. That is Brad Pitt's character's wife, her head. Yeah. I can really only tell you that while we were shooting that scene in the car, while we were out in the desert, in that place where all those electrical wires were, David just kept saying, less, do less. And I just tried to, I mean, I remember he kept saying to me, remember, you're in control. Like, you're going to win. And knowing that should allow you to have tremendous confidence. And I just followed that lead. And I just think it's the kind of film that so many of the elements that had been at work from the beginning of the movie, in terms of its style, in terms of how he built this terror, in terms of how he built for the audience a sense of this person being one of the scariest people they might ever encounter. It really allowed me to be able to not have to do that much, just say the words and mean them. And I think it also is, it's an example of what makes tragedy so difficult. I mean, you know, very often tragedy is people operating without enough information. They don't have all the facts. Romeo and Juliet, they don't have all the facts. They don't know. They don't know what we know as an audience. And so in the end, whether Brad Pitt's character ends up shooting John Doe or turning the gun on himself, which was a discussion. I mean, there were a number of alternative endings that were discussed. Nothing ends up being tied up in a nice little bow. It is. Complicated and shows how nobody wins in the end when you're not operating with all the information. When you say say the words and mean them, what does mean them mean? I've been very fortunate to be directed by Fincher a couple of times. And, um. He would say to me sometimes, I don't believe a thing that is coming out of your mouth. Shall we try it again? And you go, Okay, yeah, we can try it again. And sometimes he'll do take. And then you'll look to see if he has any added genius to hand you. And he just goes, let's do it again. And then let's do it again. And sometimes, I say this in all humility, he's literally trying to beat the acting out of you. And by continually saying, do it again, do it again, do it again, and not giving you any specifics, he is systematically shredding you of all pretense, of all, you know, because look, very often, you know, actors, we come in on the set and we've thought about the scene And we've worked out, you know, I've got this prop and I'm going to do this thing with a can, you know, all these things, all the tea, I'm going to do a thing with the thing. And David is the kind of director where he just wants you to stop adding all that crap and just say the words and say them quickly and mean them. And it takes a while to get to that place. I'll tell you a story, a story I just love because it's in exactly the same wheelhouse. So Jack Lemmon's first movie was a film called It Should Happen to You and it was directed by George Cukor. And Jack tells this story and it was just an incredibly charming story to hear Jack tell. He said, so I'm doing this picture and let me tell you, this is a terrific part for me and I'm doing a scene. It's on my first day. It's my first day and it's a terrific scene. And he goes, we do the first take. And George Cukor comes up to me and he says, Jack, I said, yeah. He said, could you do, let's do another one, but just do a little less in this one. And Jack said, a little less, a little less than what I just did. He said, yeah, just a little less. So he goes, we do another take. And I think, boy, that was it. I mean, let's just go home. And Cukor walked up to him and said, Jack, let's do another one, this time just a little bit less. And Jack said, less than what I just did now? He said, yeah, just a little bit less. He goes, oh, okay. So he did another take. And Cukor came up. And he said, yeah, just a little bit less. And Cukor said, Jack, just a little bit less. And Jack said, a little less than what I just did? He said, yes. He goes, well, if I do any less, I'm not going to be acting. And Cukor said, exactly, Jack, exactly. I mean, I guess what you're saying is it's extremely difficult to get to the bottom of a little less. Because the power, if we just stick even on seven, of your performance is in the tiniest of subtleties. Like when you say, oh, you didn't know. And you turn your head a little bit. And a little bit like the little bit, maybe a glimmer of a smile appears in your face. That's subtlety. That's less. That's hard to get to, I suppose. Yeah. And also because I so well remember, I think the work that Brad did, and also Morgan did in that scene. But the work that Brad had to do, where he had to go. I remember rehearsing with him. We were all staying at this little hotel nearby that location. And we rehearsed the night before we started shooting that sequence. And I just, I mean, it was just incredible to see the levels of emotions he had to go through. And then the decision of what do I do? Because if I do what he wants me to do, then he wins. But if I don't do it, then I'm, what kind of a man, husband am I? I just thought he did really. It was also not easy to not react to the power of what he was throwing at me. I just thought it was an extraordinary, a really extraordinary scene. So what's it like being in that scene? So it's you, Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman. And Brad Pitt is going over the top, just having a mental breakdown. And is weighing these extremely difficult moral choices, as you're saying. Yeah. But he's like screaming and in pain and tormented while you're very subtly smiling. In terms of the writing and in terms of what the characters had to do, it was an incredible culmination of how this character could manipulate in the way that he did. And in the end, succeed. You mentioned Fincher. He likes to do a lot of takes. That's the famous thing about David Fincher. So what are the pros and cons of that? I think I read that he does some crazy amount. He averages 25 to 65 takes. And most directors do less than 10. Sometimes it's timing. Sometimes it's literally he has a stopwatch and he's timing how long a scene is taking. And then he'll say, you need to take a minute off this scene. Like a minute? Yeah, a minute off this scene. I want it to move like this. So let's pick it up. Let's pick up the pace. Let's see if we can take a minute off. Why the speed? Why say it fast is the important thing for him, you think? I think because Fincher hates indulgence. And he wants people to talk the way they want to talk. The way they do in life, which is, you know, we don't take big dramatic pauses. Yeah, right. You know, before we speak, we speak. We say what we want. We, you know. And I guess actors like the dramatic pauses and the indulge in the dramatic pauses. They didn't always like the dramatic pauses. I mean, look, you go back, any student of acting, you go back to the 30s and the 40s, 50s. The speed at which actors. Spoke. Not just in the comedies, which, of course, you know, you look at any Preston Sturges movie and it's incredible how fast people are talking. And how funny things are when they happen that fast. But then, you know, acting styles changed. We got into a different kind of thing in the late 50s and 60s. And, you know, a lot of actors are feeling it, which is. I'm not saying it's. It's a bad thing. It's just that if you want to keep an audience engaged, as Fincher does, and I believe successfully does in all of his work, pace, timing, movement, clarity, speed are admirable to achieve. And all of that, he wants the actor to be as natural as possible. To strip away. To strip away all the bullshit of acting. Yeah. And become human. Look, I've been lucky with other directors. Sam Mendes is similar. I remember when I walked in to maybe the first rehearsal for Richard III that we were doing. And I had brought with me a canopy of ailments that my Richard was going to suffer from. And Sam, you know, eventually whittled it down to like three. Like, maybe your arm. Maybe your thing. And maybe your leg. But let's get rid of the other ten things that you brought into the room. Because I was, you know, I was so excited to, you know, capture this character. So, you know, very often, Trevor Nunn is this way. A lot of wonderful directors I've worked with. They're really good at helping you trim and edit. David Fincher said about you, he was talking in general, I think, but also specifically in the moment of House of Cards. Said that you have exceptional skill both as an actor and as a performer. Which, he says, are different things. So he defines the former as dramatization of a text and the latter as the seduction of an audience. Do you see wisdom in that distinction? And what does it take to do both? The dramatization of a text and the seduction of an audience. Those are two very interesting descriptions. When I think, I guess when I think performer, I tend to think entertaining. I tend to think, I tend to think comedy. I tend to think winning over an audience. I tend to think that there's something about that quality of wanting to have people enjoy themselves. And when you saddle that. Against what maybe he means as an actor, which is, which is, which is more dramatic or more, more text driven, more. Look, I've, I've always believed that my, that my job, not every actor feels this way, but my job, the way that I've looked at it is that my job is to serve the writing. And that if I serve the writing, I will. In a sense, serve myself because I'll be in the right world. I'll be in the right context. I'll be in the right style. I I'll, I'll have embraced what a director's, you know, um, it's not my painting. It's someone else's painting. I'm a series of colors and someone else's painting. And, the barometer for me has always been that when people stop me and talk to me about a character I've played. And reference their name as if they actually exist. That's when I feel like I've gotten close to doing my job. Yeah, one of the challenges for me in this conversation is remembering that your name is Kevin, not Frank or John or any of these characters, because they live deeply in the psyche. To me, that's the greatest. That's the greatest. Um, compliment for me as an actor. Um, I, I, I love being an actor. able to go. I mean, when I think about performers who inspire me, and I remember when I was young and I was introduced to Spencer Tracy, Henry Fonda, Katharine Hepburn, I just, I believed who they were. I knew nothing about them. They were just these extraordinary characters doing this extraordinary stuff. And then I think more. Recently contemporary, when I think of the work that Philip Seymour Hoffman did and Heath Ledger and people that, when I think about what they could be doing, what they could do, what they would have done had they stayed with us, I'm so excited when I go into a cinema or I go into a play and I completely am taken to some place that I believe exists. And those characters become lifelong companions. For me, they travel with you. And even if it's the darkest aspects of human nature, they're always there. I feel like I almost met them and gotten to know them and gotten to become friends with them almost. Hannibal Lecter or Forrest Gump. I feel like I'm best friends with Forrest Gump. I know the guy. And I guess he's played by some guy named Tom. But Forrest Gump is the guy I'm friends with. And I think everybody feels like that when they're in the audience with great characters. They just kind of, they become part of you in some way. The good, the bad, and the ugly of them. One of the things that I feel that I try to do in my work is when I read something for the first time, when I read a script or a play. And I am absolutely devastated by it. It is the most extraordinary, the most beautiful, the most life-affirming or terrifying. It's then a process, weirdly, of working backwards. Because I want to work in such a way that that's the experience I give to the audience when they first see it. That they have the experience. I want to work in such a way that that's the experience I give to the audience when they first see it. I want to work in such a way that that's the experience I give to the audience. I remember that there's been times in the creative process when something was pointed out to me or something was. I remember I was doing a play and I was having this really tough time with one of the last scenes in the play. And I just couldn't figure it out. I was in rehearsal. And although we had a director in that play, I called another, a friend of mine who was also director, and I had him come over and I said, look, this scene, I'm just having the time to do it. And he said, look, this scene, I'm just having the toughest. I cannot seem to crack this scene. And so we read it through a couple of times. And then this wonderful director named John Swanbeck, who would eventually direct me in a film called The Big Kahuna. But this is before that. He said to me the most incredible thing. He just said, all right, what's the last line you have in this scene before you fall over and fall asleep? And I said, the last line is, that last drink, the old KO. And he went, okay. I want you to think about what that line actually means, and then work backwards. And so he left, and I sort of was left with this, what? Like, what does that mean? How am I supposed to. And then like a couple of days went by, a couple of days went by, and I thought, okay, so what does that line actually mean? Well, that last drink, the old KO. KO is not a knockout, which is a boxing term. It's the only boxing term the writer uses in the play. And then I went back, and I realized my friend was so smart and so incredible to have said, ask a question you haven't thought of asking yet. I realized that the playwright wrote the last round, the eighth round between these two brothers, and it was a fight. And it was physical as well as emotional. And when I brought that into the rehearsal room to the director who was doing that play, he liked that idea. And we staged that scene as if it was the eighth round, although the audience wouldn't have known that. But just what I loved about that was that somebody said to me, ask yourself a question you haven't asked yourself yet. What does that line mean? And then work backwards. What is that, like a catalyst for thinking deeply about what is magical about this play, this story, this narrative? That's what that is, like thinking backwards. That's what that does. Yeah. But also because it's just, it's this incredible, why didn't I think to ask that question myself? That's what you have directors for. That's what you have, you know, so many places where ideas can come from. But that just illustrates that even though in my brain I go, I always like to work backwards, I missed it in that one, and I'm very grateful to it. To my friend for having pushed me into being able to realize what that meant. To ask the interesting question. I like the poetry and the humility of, I'm just a series of colors in someone else's painting. That was a good line. That said, you've talked about improvisation. You said that it's all about the ability to do it again and again and again, and yet never make it the same. And you also just said that you're trying to stay true to the text. So where's the room for the improvisation, that it's never the same? Well, there's two slightly different contexts, I think. One is in the rehearsal room. Improvisation could be a wonderful device. I mean, Sam Mendes, for example, will start a scene, and he does this wonderful thing. He brings rugs and he brings chairs and sofas in, and he says, well, let's put two chairs here and here. You guys, let's start in these chairs far apart from each other. Let's see what happens with the scene if you're that far apart. And so we'll do the scene that way. And then he goes, okay, let's bring a rug in, and let's bring these chairs much closer, and let's see what happens if the space, if the space between you is. And so then you try it that way. And then, you know, it's a little harder in Shakespeare to improv. But in any situation where you want to try and see where could a scene go, where would the scene go if I didn't make that choice? Where would the scene go if I made this choice? Where would the scene go if I didn't say that, or I said something else? So that's how improv can be a valuable process to learn about limits and boundaries, and what's going on with a character that somehow you discover in trying something that isn't on the page. Then there's the different thing, which is the trying to make it fresh and trying to make it new. And that is really a reference to theater. I'll put it to you this way. Anybody loves sports, right? So you go and you watch on a pitch, you watch on a tennis game, you watch basketball, you watch football. Yeah, the rules are the same, but it's a different game every time you're out on that court or on that field. It's no different in theater. Yes, it's the same lines. Maybe even blocking is similar. But what's different is attack, how you are growing in a role and watching your fellow actors grow in theirs, and how every night it's a new audience and they're reacting differently. And you literally, where you can go from week one of performances in a play to week 12 is extraordinary. And the difference between theater and film is that no matter how good someone might think you are in a movie, you'll never be any better. It's frozen. Whereas I can be better tomorrow night than I was tonight. I can be better in a week than I was tonight. It is a living, breathing, shifting, changing, growing thing every single day. But also in theater, there's no safety net. If you fuck it up, everybody gets to see you do that. And if you start giggling on stage, everyone gets to see you do that too, which I am very guilty of. I mean, there is something of a seduction of an audience in theater even more intense than there is when you're talking about film. I got a chance to watch the documentary Now in the Wings on a world stage, which is behind the scenes. Behind the scenes of, you mentioned you teaming up with Sam Mendes in 2011. Eleven to stage Richard III, a play by William Shakespeare. I was also surprised to learn you haven't really done much Shakespeare, or at least you said that in the movie. But there's a lot of interesting behind-the-scenes stuff there. First of all, the camaraderie of everybody, how the Bond theater creates, especially when you're traveling. But another interesting thing you mentioned with the chairs of Sam Mendes trying different stuff, it seemed like everybody was really open to trying stuff, embarrassing themselves, taking risks, all of that. I suppose that's part of acting in general, but theater especially. Just take risks. It's okay to embarrass the shit out of yourself, including the director. And it's also because you become a family. It's unlike a movie where I might have a scene day and then another scene with them in a week and a half. And then that's the only scenes we have in the whole movie together. Every single day when you show up in the rehearsal room, it's the whole company. You're all up for it every day. You're learning, you're growing, you're trying and and there is a um an incredible trust that happens and i was of course fortunate that that some of the some of the things i learned and observed about um being a part of that family being included in that family and and being a part of creating that family i i was able to observe from from people like jack lemon who who led many companies that that i was fortunate to to work in and and be part of there's also a sad moment where at the end everybody is really sad to say goodbye because you do form a family and then it's over i guess somebody said that that's just part of theater it's like i mean there's a kind of assumed goodbye and that this is it yeah and also there are some times when like six months later i'll wake up in the middle of the night and i'll go that's how to play that scene yeah oh god i just finally figured it out so maybe you can speak a little bit more to that what's difference between film acting and live theater acting i don't really think there is any i think there's just you eventually learn about yourself on film you know when i first did like my first episode of the equalizer um you know it's just it's just it's horrible it's just so bad um but i didn't know about myself i didn't so slowly you begin to learn about yourself but i think good acting is good acting and i think that you know if you if a camera's right here you you know that your your front row is also your back row you just don't have to you don't have to do so much there is in theater a particular kind of energy almost like an athlete that you have to have vocally to be able to get up seven performances a week and never lose your voice and always be there and always be alive and always be doing the best work you can that you just don't require in it just doesn't require the same kind of stamina that doing a play does. It just feels like also in theater, you have to become the character more intensely because you can't take a break. You can't take a bathroom break. You're like on stage. This is you. Yeah, but you have no idea what's going on on stage with the actors. I mean, I have literally laughed through speeches that I had to give because my fellow actors were putting carrots up their nose or broccoli in their ears or doing whatever they were doing to make me laugh. So they're just having fun. They're having the time of their life. And by the way, Judi Dench is the worst giggler of all. I mean, they had to bring the curtain down on her and Maggie Smith because they were laughing so hard they could not continue the play. So even when you're doing like a dramatic monologue, still, they're still fucking with you. There's stuff. Okay, that's great. That's good to know. You also said an interesting line that improvisation helps you learn about the character. Can you explain that? So like through maybe playing with the different ways of saying the words or the different ways to bring the words to life, you get to learn about yourself, about the character you're playing. It can be helpful. But improv is, I'm a big, such a big believer in the writing and in serving the writing and doing the words the writer wrote. That improv for me, unless you're just doing like comedy and, you know, like, I mean, I love improv and comedy. It's brilliant. So much fun to watch people just come up with something right there. But you're, you know, that's where you're looking for laughs and you're, you're specifically in a little scene that's being created. But I think improv is, has, has had value. But I, I, I have not experienced it as much in doing plays as I have sometimes in doing, in doing film where you'll, you'll start off rehearsing and a director may say, let's just go off book and see what happens. And I've had moments in film where someone went off book, and it was terrifying. There was a scene I had in Glen Gary Glen Ross where the character I play has, has fucked something up. It's just screwed something up. And Pacino is livid. And so we had the scene where Al is walking like this and the camera is moving with him. And he is shooing me a new asshole. And in the middle of the take, Al starts talking about me. Oh, Kevin, you don't think we know how you got this job? You don't think we know whose dick you've been sucking on to get this part in this movie? And I'm now, I'm literally like, I don't, I don't know what the hell is happening, but I'm reacting. We got to the end of that take. Al walked up to me and he went, oh, that was so good. Oh my God, that was so good. Just so you know, the sound, I asked them not to record. So you have no dialogue. So it's just me. Oh, that was so good. You look, you look like a car wreck. And I was like, yeah. And it was actually an incredibly generous thing that he gave me. So that I would react. Oh, wow. Did they use that shot? Because you weren't in shock. It was my closeup. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that's the take. That was an intense interact. I mean, what was it like, if we can just linger on that, just that intense scene with Al Pacino? Well, he's the reason I got the movie. A lot of people might think it'd be because Jack was in the film that he had something to do with it. But actually I was doing a play called Lost in Yonkers. I was on Broadway and we had the same dresser who worked with him. A girl named Laura was wonderful. Laura Beattie. And she told Al that he should come and see this play because she wanted to see me in this play. I was playing this gangster. It was fun, fun, fun part. So I didn't know Pacino came on some night and saw this play. And then like three days later, I got a call to come in and audition for this Glenn Gray, Glenn Ross, which of course I knew is a play. David Mamet's play. And then I auditioned. Jamie Foley was the director who would eventually direct a bunch of House of Cards. Wonderful, wonderful guy. And I got the part. Well, I didn't quite get the part. They were going to bring together the actors that they thought they were going to give the parts to on a Saturday at Al's office. And they asked me if I would come and do a read-through. And I said, who's going to be there? And they said, well, so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And then Jack Lemmon is flying in. And I said, don't tell Mr. Lemmon that I'm doing the read-through. Is that possible? And they were like, sure. So I'll never forget this. Jack was sitting in a chair in Pacino's office doing the New York Times crossword puzzle as he did every day. And I walked in the door and he went, oh, Jesus Christ. Is it possible you could get a job without me? Jesus Christ. I'm so tired of holding up your end of it. Oh, my God. Jesus. So that's. I got the job because of Pacino. And it was really one of the first major roles that I ever had in a film. And to be working with that group. Yeah, that's one of the greatest ensemble casts ever. We got Al Pacino, Jack Lemmon, Alec Baldwin, Alan Arkin, Ed Harris, you, Jonathan Pryce. It's just incredible. And I have to say, I mean, maybe you can comment. You've talked about how much of a mentor and a friend Jack Lemmon has been. That's one of his greatest performances ever. Ever. You have a scene at the end. end of the movie with him that was really powerful like firing on all cylinders you're playing disdain to perfection and he's playing desperation to perfection what a scene what was that like just like at the top of your game the two of you well by that time we had done long day's journey tonight in the theater we'd done a mini series called the murder of mary fagan on nbc we'd done a film called dad that gary david goldberg directed with ted danson so this was the fourth time we were working together and we knew each other we'd become he'd become my father figure and and i don't know if you know that i originally met jack lemon when i was very very young he was doing a production at the mark taper form of a sean o'casey play called juno and the peacock with walter mathis on marine stapleton and on a saturday in december of 1974 my junior high school drama class went to a workshop it was called how to audition and we did this workshop many schools in southern california were part of this drama teachers association so we got these incredible experiences of being able to go see professional productions and be involved in these workshops or festivals so i had to get up and do a monologue in front of mr lemon and i was like oh my god i'm going to do a monologue in front of mr lemon and i was like oh my god i'm going to do a monologue in front of mr lemon and i was like oh and when i was 13 years old and he walked up to me at the end of that and he put his hand on my shoulder and he said that was such a terrific he said no i mean everything i've been talking about you just did yeah what's your name i said kevin he said wait let me tell you something when you get finished with high school as i'm sure you're going to go on and do theater you should go to new york and you should study to be an actor because this is what you're meant to do with your life and he was like an idol and 12 years later i read in the new york times that i was going to be in the new york times that i was going to be in the new york times that he was coming to broadway to do this production of a long day's journey tonight a year and some months after i read this article and i was like i'm going to play jamie in that production and i then with a lot of opposition because the cast and director didn't want to see me they they said that the director jonathan miller wanted movie actors to play the two sons and ultimately i i'm going to be in the new york times and i'm going to be in the new york times and i'm going to be in the new york times and i'm going to be in the new york times and i'm going to be in the new york times and i uh i found out that jonathan miller the director was coming to new york to do a series of lectures at alice tully hall and i uh went to try to figure out how i could maybe meet him and uh i was sitting in that theater listening to this incredible lecture he was doing and sitting next to me was an elderly woman i mean elderly 80 something and she was asleep but sticking out of her handbag which was on the floor was a invitation to a cocktail reception in honor of dr jonathan miller and so i i thought you know she's tired she's probably going to go home so i i i took that and walked into this cocktail reception and ultimately went over to dr miller who was incredibly kind and said sit down i'm always very curious what brings young people to my lectures and i said to him eugene o'neill brought me here and he was like what what i've always wanted to meet him where is he and i told him that i've been trying for seven months to get an audition for a long day's journey and that his american cast directors were telling my agents that he wanted big american movie stars and at that moment he turned and he saw one of those casting directors who was there that night because i knew he was going to be in new york starting auditions that week and she was staring daggers at me and he just got it and he said someone have a pen and he took the little paper started writing he said listen kevin there there are many situations in which casting directors have a lot of say and a lot of power and a lot of leverage and then there are other situations where they just take directors messages and on this one they take a lot of power and a lot of leverage and then there are other situations where they just take directors messages and then there are other situations where they just take directors messages and then there are other situations where they just take directors messages this is where i'm staying make sure my messages this is where i'm staying make sure my messages this is where i'm staying make sure you people get to me we start auditions on thursday you people get to me we start auditions on thursday and on thursday i had an opportunity to come in and on thursday i had an opportunity to come in and on thursday i had an opportunity to come in and audition for this play that i've been working and audition for this play that i've been working on and preparing and at the end of it i did four on and preparing and at the end of it i did four on and preparing and at the end of it i did four scenes at the end of it he said to me that unless scenes at the end of it he said to me that unless someone else came in and blew him against the wall someone else came in and blew him against the wall like i had just done as far as he was concerned i like i had just done as far as he was concerned i pretty much had the part but i couldn't tell my pretty much had the part but i couldn't tell my pretty much had the part but i couldn't tell my agents that yet because i had to come back and agents that yet because i had to come back and agents that yet because i had to come back and read with mr lemon and so three months later in read with mr lemon and so three months later in read with mr lemon and so three months later in august of 1985 august of 1985 august of 1985 i found myself in a room with jack lemon i found myself in a room with jack lemon i found myself in a room with jack lemon again again again at 890 broadway which is where they at 890 broadway which is where they at 890 broadway which is where they rehearse a lot of broadway plays rehearse a lot of broadway plays rehearse a lot of broadway plays and we did four scenes together and i was and we did four scenes together and i was and we did four scenes together and i was toppling over him i was pushing him i toppling over him i was pushing him i was toppling over him i was pushing him i was i was relentless and i'll never forget at the end of that lemon came over to me he put his hand on lemon came over to me he put his hand on lemon came over to me he put his hand on my shoulder and he said that would you my shoulder and he said that would you my shoulder and he said that would you touch it terrific i never thought we'd touch it terrific i never thought we'd touch it terrific i never thought we'd find the rotten kid but he's it jesus find the rotten kid but he's it jesus find the rotten kid but he's it jesus christ what the hell was that christ what the hell was that christ what the hell was that and i ended up spending the next year and i ended up spending the next year and i ended up spending the next year of my life with that man of my life with that man of my life with that man so it turns out he was right so it turns out he was right so it turns out he was right yeah this world works in mysterious yeah this world works in mysterious yeah this world works in mysterious ways it also speaks to the fact ways it also speaks to the fact ways it also speaks to the fact of the power of somebody you look up to of the power of somebody you look up to of the power of somebody you look up to giving words of encouragement giving words of encouragement giving words of encouragement because those can just reverberate because those can just reverberate because those can just reverberate through your whole life and just like through your whole life and just like through your whole life and just like make the path clear i've always we used make the path clear i've always we used make the path clear i've always we used to we used to joke that uh if every to we used to joke that uh if every contract came with a Jack Lemmon clause, it would be a more beautiful world. Beautifully said. Jack Lemmon is one of the greatest actors ever. What do you think makes him so damn good? Wow. I think he truly set out in his life to accomplish what his father said to him on his deathbed. His father was, by the way, called the Donut King in Boston, and not in the entertainment business at all. He literally owned a donut company. And when he was passing away, Jack said, the last thing my father said to me was, go out there and spread a little sunshine. And I truly think that's what Jack loved to do. I remember this, and I don't know if this will answer your question, but I think it's revealing about what he's able to do and what he was able to do, and how that ultimately influenced what I was able to do. Sam Mendes had never directed a film before American Beauty. And so what he did was he took a lot of the work that he did, and he took a lot of the work that he did, and he took the best elements of theater and applied them to the process. So we rehearsed it like a play in a soundstage where everything was laid out like it would be in a play, and this couch will be here. And he'd sent me a couple of tapes. He'd sent me two cassette tapes, one that he'd like to call pre-Lester, before he begins to move in a new direction, and And then he said to me one day, and I always thought this was brilliant of Sam to use Lemon, knowing what Lemon meant to me. He said, when was the last time you watched The Apartment? And I said, I don't know. I mean, I love that movie so much. He goes, I want you to watch it again, and then let's talk. So I went and I watched the movie again. And we sat down, and Sam said, What Lemon does in that film is incredible, because there is never a moment in the movie where we see him change. He just evolves. And he becomes the man he becomes because of the experiences that he has through the course of the film. But there's this remarkable consistency in who he becomes. And that's what I need you to do as Lester. I don't want the audience to ever see him change. I want him to evolve. And so we did some. I mean, first of all, it was just a great direction. And then second of all, we did some things that people don't know we did to aid that gradual shift of that man's character. First of all. I had to be in the best shape from the beginning of the movie, because we didn't shoot it in sequence. So I was in this crazy shape. I had this wonderful trainer named Mike Torsha, who just was incredible. But so what we did was, in order to then show this gradual shift, was I had three different hair pieces. I had three different kinds of costumes of different colors and sizes. And I had different makeup so in the beginning i was wearing a kind of drab dull slightly you know uninspired hairpiece and my makeup was kind of gray and boring and i was a little bit there were times when i was like too much like this and sam would go kevin you look like walter math out would you please stand up a little bit we're sort of midway through at this point and then at a certain point the wig changed and it had little highlights in it a little more color a little more the makeup became a little the the suits got a little tighter and then finally a third wig that was golden highlights and sunshine and and you know rosy cheeks and tight fit and these are what we call theatrical tricks you know this is this is how you an audience doesn't even know it's happening but it is this gradual and i just always felt that that was such a um a brilliant way because he knew what i felt about jack and when you watch the apartment it is extraordinary that he doesn't ever change he just so i'm i'm and in fact i i thanked jack um when i won the oscar and uh i did my thank you speech and i walked off stage and i remember i had to sit down for a moment because i didn't want to go i didn't want to go to the press room because i wanted to see if sam was going to win and so i was waiting and my phone rang and it was lemon he said you're a son of a bitch i said i said what he goes do you first of all congratulations and thanks for thanking me because you know god knows you couldn't have done it without me he said second of all he said you know how long it took me to win uh from supporting actor i won it in it for mr roberts and it took me like 10 12 years to win oscar you did it in four you son of a bitch yeah the apartment was i mean it's widely considered one of the greatest movies ever people sometimes refer to as the comedy which is an interesting kind of classification i suppose that's a lesson about comedy that the best uh the best comedy is the one that's basically a tragedy well i mean some people think clockwork orange is a comedy and i'm not saying there aren't some good laughs in clockwork orange but yeah you know it's i mean yeah what's that line between uh comedy and tragedy for you i well if if it's a line it's a line i cross all the time because i've tried always to find the humor um unexpected sometimes uh maybe inappropriate sometimes maybe shocking but i've tried and i think almost every dramatic role i've had to have a sense of humor and to be able to bring that um uh along with everything else that is serious because frankly that's how we deal with stuff in life you know i think uh sam men is actually said in the now documentary something like with great theater with with great stories you find humor on the journey to the heart of darkness something like this very poetic yeah but it's true i'm sorry i can't be that poetic i was i'm very sorry but it's true i mean i've the the people i've interacted in this world have been to a war zone and the ones who have lost the most and have suffered the most are usually the ones who are able to uh make jokes the quickest and the jokes are often dark and absurd and cross every single line no political correctness all of that sure well i mean you know it's like uh the great mary tyler moore show where they can't stop giggling at at the clown's funeral i mean it's it's just one of the great episodes ever you know giggling at a funeral is as bad as farting at a funeral and you know i'm i'm sure that there's some people who've done both oh man uh so you mentioned american beauty and the idea of uh not changing but evolving that's really interesting because that movie is about like finding yourself it's a it's a philosophically profound movie it's about various characters in their own ways finding their own identity in a world where um maybe a system of a materialistic system that wants you to be like everyone else and so i mean lester is really transforms himself throughout the movie and you're saying the challenge there is to still be the same human being fundamentally yeah and i also think that the film was powerful because you had three very honest and genuine portrayal of young people and then you had lester behaving like a young person um doing things that were unexpected and and uh and i think that um the honesty with which it dealt with those uh issues that those teenagers were going through and the honesty with which it dealt with what lester was going through um i think are some of the reasons why the film had the response that it did from so many people i mean i i used to get stopped and someone would say to me when i first saw american beauty i was married and the second time i saw it i wasn't and i was like well we weren't trying to increase the divorce rate you know it wasn't our intention but it is interesting how so many people um have those kinds of crazy fantasies and what i admired so much about who lester was as a person why i wanted to play him is because in the end he makes the right decision i think a lot of people live lives of quiet desperation in a in a job they don't like in a marriage they're unhappy in and to see somebody living that life and then saying fuck it in every way possible and not just in a cynical way but in a way that opens them opens lester up to see the beauty in the world that's you know the beauty in american beauty it's well and you know you may have to blackmail your boss to get there but you know and in that there's a bunch of humor also in the uh in the anger and the in the absurdity of sort of taking a stand against the conformity of life there's this humor and um i read somewhere that the scene the dinner scene which is kind of play like where lester's slams the plate against the wall was improvised by you the uh the slamming of the plate against the wall no no absolutely internet absolutely absolutely uh uh written and and directed uh um yeah can't take credit for that the plate okay well that was a that was a genius interaction there um there's something about the dinner table and losing your shit at the dinner table having a fight and losing your shit at the dinner table um where else like yellowstone was another situation where it's a family at the dinner table and then one of them says fuck it i'm not eating this anymore and i'm going to create a scene right it's a beautiful kind of environment for dramatic or nicholson and the shining i mean there's some there's some family scenes gone awry in that movie the contrast between you and annette benning in that scene creates the genius of that scene so how much of acting is the dance between two actors well with annette i just adored working with her and we were the two actors that sam wanted from the very beginning much against the will of the higher-ups who wanted other actors to play those roles but um i've known annette since we did a screen test together from milo shforman for a film he did of the ladies on danger ruse movie it was a different film from that one but it was the same story and i've always thought she is just remarkable and i think that the work she did in that film the relationship that um we were able to build um for me the saddest part of that success was that she didn't win the oscar and i felt she should have what what kind of interesting direction did you get from from sam and as in how you approach playing lester in the different in how to take on the different scenes there's a lot of just brilliant scenes in that movie well i'll share with you a story that most people don't know um which is our first two days of shooting were in smileys the place where i get a job in a fast food place yeah it's a burger joint yeah and um i guess it was like maybe the third day or the fourth day of shooting we'd now done that and i said to sam so how how are the dailies you know how do they look he goes which ones i said well the first smileys he goes oh um they're shit and i went yeah no how were they he goes no they're they're shit and i went yeah no how were they he goes no they're shit and i went yeah no how were they he goes no they're shit and i went yeah no how were they he goes no they're shit and i went yeah no how were they he goes no how were they he goes no how were they he goes no how were they he goes no how were they and sam said it was actually a moment of incredible confidence because he said the worst thing that could possibly have happened happened in my first two days and after that i was like i know what i'm doing and i knew i had to reshoot it and it was absolutely right and i guess that's what a great director must do is have the guts in that moment to reshoot everything that's a pretty gutsy move two other little things to share with you about sam about the way he is you wouldn't know it but the original script opened and closed with a trial ricky was accused of lester's murder and the movie was bookended by this trial very different movie which they shot the entire trial for weeks okay yeah and i used to fly in my dreams you know those opening shots over the neighborhood i used to come into those shots in my bathrobe flying and then when i hit the ground and the newspaper was thrown at me by the newspaper guy and i caught it the alarm would go off and i wake up in bed i spent five days being hung by wires and filming these sequences of flying through my dreams and sam said to me yeah the flying sequences are all gone and the trial is gone and i was like what what are you talking about um and here's my other little favorite um story about sam and that when we were shooting in the valley one of those places i flew this was an indoor set um sam said to me in the morning hey at lunch i just want to record a guide track of all the dials all of your narration because they just needed an editing as a guide and i said sure so i remember we came outside of this in this hallway where i had a dressing room in this little studio we were in and sam had like a cassette tape recorder and like a little microphone and we put it on the floor and he pushed record and i read the entire narration and i never did it again that's the narration in the movie because sam said when he listened to it i wasn't trying to do anything he said you had no idea where these things were going where they were going to be placed what they were going to mean you just read it so innocently so purely so directly that i knew if i brought you into a studio and put headphones on you and had you do it it would change the ease with which you'd done it and so they just fixed all of the problems that they had with this little cassette and that is the way i did it and the only time i did it was in this little hallway and once again a great performance lies in being uh doing less yeah yeah the innocence and the purity of lust he knew i would have come into the studio and fucked it up yeah what do you think about the notion of beauty that permeates american beauty what do you think that theme is with the roses with the rose petals the the characters that are living this mundane existence slowly opening their eyes up to uh what is beautiful in life see it's funny i don't think of the roses and i don't think of her body in the poster and i don't think of those things as the beauty of life um i think of the bag i think that there are things we miss that are right in front of us that are truly beautiful the little things the simple things yeah and in fact i'll even tell you something that i always thought was so incredible when we shot uh the scenes in the office where lester worked the job he hated there was a bulletin board behind me on a wall and someone who was watching a cut or early dailies who was in the marketing department saw that someone had cut out a little piece of paper and stuck it and it said look closer and they presented that to sam as the idea of what that should that could go on the poster the idea of looking closer was such a brilliant idea but it wasn't i mean it wasn't like wasn't in the script it was just on a wall behind me and someone happened to zoom in on it and see it and thought that's what this movie's about this movie's about taking the time to look closer and i think that in itself is just beautiful mortality also permeates the film you know it starts with acknowledging that death is on the way that uh you're you're lester's time is finite you ever think about your own death yeah yeah scared of it um um when i was at my lowest point yes it scared me what what does that fear look like what what's the nature of the fear what are you afraid of that there's no way out that there's no answer um that nothing makes sense you see the interesting thing about lester's is facing the same fear he seemed to be somehow liberated and accepted everything yeah and then saw the beauty of it because he got there he was given the opportunity to to reinvent himself and to and to try things he'd never tried to ask questions he'd never asked to to trust his instincts and to become the best version of himself he could become and so dick van dyke who is uh has become an extraordinary friend of mine dick is 98 years old and he says you know if i'd known i was going to live this long i would have taken better care of myself um when i spend time with him i'm just moved by every day you know he gets up and he goes it's a good day i woke up and i learn a lot about i i have a a different feeling about death now than i did seven years ago uh and i'm on the path to being able to be in a place where And I've resolved the things I needed to resolve. And I won't probably get to all of it in my lifetime, but I certainly would like to be at a place where if I were to drop dead tomorrow, it would have been an amazing life. So Lester got there. It sounds like Dick Van Dyke got there. You're trying to get there. Sure. You said you feared death at your lowest point. What was the lowest point? It was November 1st of 2017, and then Thanksgiving Day of that same year. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about this dark time. Let's talk about the sexual allegations against you that led to you being canceled by, well, the entire world for the last seven years. I would like to personally understand the sin. The sins, the bad things you did, and the bad things you didn't do. So I also should say that the thing I hope to do here is to give respect to due process. Innocent until proven guilty that the mass hysteria machine of the internet and clickbait journalism doesn't do. So here's what I understand. There were criminal and civil trials. There were criminal and civil trials brought against you, including the one that started it all when Anthony Rapp sued you for $40 million. In these trials, you were acquitted, found not guilty and not liable. Is that right? Yes. I think that's really important, again, in terms of due process. And I read a lot, and I watched a lot in preparation for this on this point. Including, of course, the recently detailed. The detailed interviews you did with Dan Wooten, and then Allison Pearson of The Telegraph, and those are all focused on this topic. And they go in detail, where you respond in detail to many of the allegations. If people are interested in the details, they can listen to those. So based on that and everything I looked at, as I understand, you never prevented anyone from leaving if they wanted to, sort of in a sexual context. For example, by blocking the door. Is that right? That's correct, yeah. You always respected the explicit no from people, again, in the sexual context. Is that right? That is correct. You've never done anything sexual with an underage person, right? Never. And also, as is sometimes done in Hollywood, let me ask this. You've never explicitly offered to exchange sexual favors for career advancement, correct? Correct. In terms of bad behavior, what did you do? What was the worst of it? And how often did you do it? I have heard, and now quite often, that everybody has a Kevin Spacey story. And what that tells me is that I hit on a lot of guys. How often did you cross the line, and what does that mean to you? I did a lot of horsing around. I did a lot of things that at the time I thought were sort of playful and fun, and I have learned since we're not. And I have had to recognize that I crossed some boundaries. And I did some things that were wrong, and I made some mistakes. And that's in my past. I mean, I've been working so hard over these last seven years to have the conversations I needed to have, to listen to people, to understand things from a different perspective than the one that I had, and to say, I will never behave that way again for the rest of my life. Just to clarify, I think you're often too pushy with the flirting. And that manifests itself in multiple ways. But just to make clear, you never prevented anyone from leaving if they wanted to. You always took the explicit no from people as an answer. No, stop. You took that for the answer. You've never done anything sexual with an underage person, and you've never explicitly offered to exchange sexual favors for career. These are some of the sort of accusations that have been made, and in the court of law, multiple times have been shown not to be true. But I have had a sexual life, and I've fallen in love, and I've been so admiring of people that I, I mean, I'm so romantic. I'm such a romantic person that there's this whole side of me that hasn't been talked about, isn't being discussed. But that's so. That's who I know. That's the person I know. It's been very upsetting to hear that some people have said, I, I mean, I don't have a violent bone in my body, but to hear people describe things as having been very aggressive is incredibly difficult for me. And I'm deeply sorry that I ever offended anyone or hurt anyone in any way. It is, it is crushing to me, and I have to work very hard. to show and to prove that I have learned, I got the memo, and I will never, ever, ever behave in those ways again. From everything I've seen in public interactions with you, people love you. Colleagues love you. Co-workers love you. There's a flirtatiousness. Another word for that is chemistry. There's a chemistry between the people you work with. And by the way, not to take anything away from my accountability for things I did where I got it wrong, I crossed the line, I pushed some boundaries. I accept all of that. But I live in an industry in which flirtation, attraction, people meeting in the workspace, and ending up marrying each other and having children. And so it is a space and a place where these nobles, notions of family, these notions of attraction, these notions of. It's always complicated if you meet someone in the workspace and find yourselves attracted to each other. You have to be mindful of that. And you have to be very mindful that you don't ever want anyone to feel that their job is in jeopardy, or you would punish them in some way if they no longer wanted to be with you. So those are important. Things to just acknowledge. - Another complexity to this, as I've seen, is that there's just a huge number of actors that look up to you. A huge number of people in the industry that look up to you and love you. I've seen just from this documentary, just a lot of people just love being around you, learning from you what it means to create great theater, great film, great stories. And so that adds to the complexity. I wouldn't say it's a power dynamic, like a boss-employee relationship. It's an admiration dynamic that is easy to miss and easy to take advantage of. Is that something you understand? - Yes. And I also understand that there are people who met me and spent a very brief period of time with me, but presumed I was now going to be their mentor. And then behaved in a way that I was unaware of, that they were, you know, that they were either participating or flirting along or encouraging me without me having any idea that at the end of the day, they were expecting something. So these are about relationships. These are about two people. These are about people making decisions, people making choices. And I accept my accountability in this. - That's a really good point, and I think that's really important. I think that's a really important point, and I think that's a really good point, and I think that's a really good point, and I think that's a really good point, and I think that's a really good point. And I accept my accountability in that. But there are a number of things that I've been accused of that just simply did not happen. And I can't say, and I don't think it would be right for me to say, "Well, you know, everything that I've been accused of is true," because we've now proved that it isn't, and it wasn't. But I am perfectly willing to accept that I have been accused of everything that I've been accused of, and it wasn't. But I am perfectly willing to accept that I had behaviors that were wrong, and that I shouldn't have done, and I am regretful for. - I think that also speaks to a dark side of fame. The sense I got is that there are some people, potentially a lot of people, trying to make friends with you in order to get roles, in order to advance their career. So not you using them, but they trying to use you. But I think that also speaks to a dark side of fame. The sense I got is that there are some people, potentially a lot of people, trying to use you in order to get roles, in order to advance their career. So not you using them, but they trying to use you in order to advance their career. What's that like? How do you know if somebody likes you for you, for Kevin, or likes you for, like you said, you're a romantic, you see a person, and you're like, I like this person, and they seem to like you. How do you know if they like you for you? - Well, to some degree, I would say that I have been able to trust myself. - And that I've used my instincts on that, and that I've most of the time been right. But obviously, in the last number of years, not just with people who have accused me, but just also people in my own industry, you know, to realize that, oh, I thought we had a friendship, but I guess that was about an inch thick and not what I thought it was. But look, you know, one shouldn't be surprised by that. I have to also say, you know, you said a little while ago that the world had canceled me, and I have to disagree with you. I have to disagree because for seven years, I've been stopped by people, sometimes every day, sometimes multiple, multiple times a day. And the conversations that I have with people, the generosity that they share, the kindness that they show, and how much they want to know when I'm getting back to work, tells me that while there may be a very loud minority, there is a quietness. In the industry, have you been betrayed in life? And how do you not let that make you cynical? I think betrayal is a really interesting word. But I think if you're going to be betrayed, it has to be by those who truly know you. And I can tell you that I have not been betrayed. That's beautiful. That's a beautiful way to put it. For the times you crossed the line, do you take responsibility for the wrongs you've done? Yes. Are you sorry to the people you may have hurt emotionally? Yes. And I have spoken to many of them. Privately. Privately, which is where amends should be made. Were they able to start finding forgiveness? Absolutely. Some of the most moving conversations that I have had, when I was determined to take accountability, have been those people have said, "Thank you so much, and I think I can forgive you now." If you got a chance to talk to the Kevin Spacey of 30 to 40 years ago, what would you tell him? What would you tell him to change about his ways? How would you do it? What would be your approach? Would you be nice about it? Would you smack him around? I think if I were to go back that far, I probably would have found a way to not have been as concerned about my revealing my sexuality and hiding that for as long as I did. I think that had a lot to do with confusion and a lot to do with mistrust. For most of your life, you were not open with the public about being gay. What was the hardest thing about keeping who you love a secret? That I didn't find the right moment of celebration to be able to share that. That must be a thing that weighs on you to not be able to share that. thing that weighs on you to not be able to fully, yeah, celebrate your love. You know, Ian McKellen said after 40, he was 49 when he came out, 27 years he'd been a professional actor, being in the closet. And he said he felt it was like he was living a part of his life not being truthful. And that he felt that it affected his work when he did come out because he no longer felt like he had anything to hide. And I absolutely believe that that is what my experience has been and will continue to be. I am sorry about the way I came out, but Evan and I had already had the conversation. I had already decided to come out. And so it wasn't like, oh, I was forced to come out, but it was something I decided to do. And by the way, much against Evan's advice, I came out in that statement and he wishes that I had not done so. Yeah, you made a statement when the initial accusation happened that could be up there as one of the worst social media posts of all time. Into. Into. It's like two for one. Don't hold back. No, come on. Really tell me how you feel. For the first part, you kind of implicitly admitted to doing something bad, which was later shown and proved completely to never have happened. It was a lie. No, I basically said that I didn't remember what this person was, that Anthony Rapp was claiming from 31 years before. I had no memory of it. But if it had happened, if this embarrassing moment had happened, then I would owe him an apology. That was what I said. And then I said, and while I'm at it, I think I'll come out. And, you know, it was definitely not the greatest coming out party ever. I will admit that. Well, from the public perception, the first part of that, so first of all, the second part is a horrible way to come out. Yes, we all agree. And then the first part, from the public viewpoint, they see guilt in that, which also is tragic because at least that particular accusation. And it's a very dramatic one. It's a $40 million lawsuit. It's a big deal. And an underage person was shown to be false. Well, but you're melding two things together. The lawsuit didn't happen until 2020, and then it didn't get to court until 2022. We're back in 2017 when it was just an accusation he made in BuzzFeed magazine. Look, I was backed into a corner. When someone says, you were so drunk, you won't remember this thing happened. What's your first instinct? Is your first instinct to say this person's a liar? Or is your first instinct to go, what? I was, what? 31 years at a party I don't even remember throwing? Obviously, a lot of investigation happened after that in which we were then able to prove in that court case that it had never occurred. But at the moment, I was sort of being told I couldn't push back. You have to. You have to be kind, you can't. I think, you know, even to me now, none of it sounds right. But I don't know that I could have said anything that would have been satisfactory to anybody. Okay. There's an almost convincing explanation for the worst social media post of all time. I almost accept it. I'm really surprised. I guess you haven't read a lot of media posts because I can't believe that's the actual worst one. It's beautifully bad, how bad that social media. Media posts. As you mentioned, Liam Neeson and Sharon Stone came out in support of you recently, speaking to your character. A lot of people who know you, and some of whom I know, who have worked with you privately, show support for you, but are afraid to speak up publicly. What do you make of that? I mean, to me personally, this just makes me sad because perhaps that's the nature of the industry. That it's difficult to do. To do that, but I just wish there would be a little bit more courage in the world. I don't think it's about the industry. I think it's about our time. I think it's the time that we're in. And people are very afraid. Just afraid. Just a general. No, they're literally afraid that they're going to get canceled if they stand up for someone who has been. And I think it's. I mean, you know, we've seen this many times. In history, this is not the first time it's happened. So as you said, your darkest moment in 2017, when all of this went down, one of the things that happened is you were no longer in the House of Cards for the last season. Let's go to the beginning of that show. One of the greatest TV series of all time. A dark, fascinating character in Frank Underwood. A ruthless, cunning, borderline evil politician. What are some interesting aspects to the process you went through for becoming Frank Underwood? Maybe Richard III. There's a lot of elements there in your performance that maybe inspired that character. Is that fair or no? I'll give you one very interesting, specific education. That I got in doing Richard III and closing that show at BAM in March of 2012 and two months later started shooting House of Cards. There is something called direct address. In Shakespeare, you have Hamlet talks to the world. But when Shakespeare wrote Richard III, it was the first time he created something called direct address. Which is the character looks directly at each person close by. It is a different kind of sharing than when a character is doing a monologue, an opening of Henry IV. And while there are some people who believe that direct address was invented in Ferris Bueller, it wasn't. It was Shakespeare who invented it. So I had just had this experience every night in theaters all over the world, seeing how people reacted to becoming a co-conspirator because that's what it's about. And what I tried to do and what Fincher really helped me with in those beginning days was how to look in that camera and imagine I was talking to my best friend. Because you're sharing the secret of the darkness of how this game is played with that best friend. Yeah, and there were many times when I suppose the writers thought I was crazy where I would see a script and I would see this moment where this direct address would happen and say all this stuff. And I'd go, when we do a read-through of the script, I'd go, I don't think I need to say any of that. And they were like, what do you mean? I said, well, the audience knows all of that. All I have to do is look. They know exactly what's going on. I don't need to say a thing. So I was often cutting dialogue because it just wasn't needed. Because that relationship that I'd learned, that I'd experienced doing Richard III, was so extraordinary. Where I literally watched people, they were like, oh, I'm in on the thing and this is so awesome. And then suddenly, wait, he killed the kids. He killed those kids in the tower. Oh, maybe it's not. And you literally would watch them start to reverse their having had such a great time with Richard III in the first three acts. And I thought, this is going to happen in this show. If this intimacy can actually land, and I just think there was some brilliance, there was some brilliant writing, and we always attempted to do it in one take. No matter how long something was, we would try to do it in one take, the direct addresses. So there was never a cut. When we went out on locations, we started to then find ways to cut it and make it slightly broader. That's interesting because you're doing a bunch of, with both Richard III and Frank Underwood, a bunch of dark, borderline evil things. And then I guess the idea, you're going to be losing the audience and then you win them back over with the addresses. That's the remarkable thing, is against their instincts and their better sense of what they should and should not do, they still rallied around Frank Underwood. And I saw even with the documentary, the glimmers of that with Richard III. I mean, you were seducing the audience. There was such a chemistry between you and the audience. On stage. Yeah, yeah. Well, in that production, that's absolutely true. Also, Richard is one of the weirder, weird, I mean by weird, was an early play of Shakespeare's. And he's basically never offstage. I mean, I remember when we did the first run through, I had no idea what the next scene was every time I came offstage. I had no idea what was next. They literally had, they had to drag me from one place to another. Now it's the scene with Hastings. Now it's the scene. But I now understand these wonderful stories that you can read in old books about Shakespeare's time, that actors grabbed Shakespeare around the cuff and punched him and threw him against the wall and said, you ever write a part like this again, I'm going to kill you. And that's why in later plays, he started to have a pageant happened and then a wedding happened. And the, the main character was offstage resting because the actor had said, you can't do this to us. There's no breaks. And it's true. There's very few breaks in Richard III. You're on stage most of the time. The comedic aspect of Richard III and Frank Underwood, is that a component that helps bring out the full complexity of the, the darkness that is Frank Underwood? I certainly can't take credit for Shakespeare. Having written something that is funny, or Bo Williman and his team to have written something that is funny, it's fundamentally funny. It just depends on how, on how I interpret it on, on, you know, there are, you know, that's one of the great things that, why we love, you know, in a year's time, we can see five different Hamlets. We can see four Richard III's. We can see two Richard II's. That's part of the thrill. That we don't own these parts. We borrow them and we interpret them. And what Ian McKellen might do with a role could be completely different from what I might do because of the way we perceive it. And also very often in terms of going for humor, it's very often a director will say, why don't you say that with a bit of irony? Why don't you try that with a bit of blah, blah, blah. Yeah. There's often that, that like a wry smile, the, that line that jumps to me when you're talking about Claire in the early, maybe first episode, even I love that woman more than sharks love blood. I just, and I mean, I guess there's a lot of ways to read that line, but the way you read it had both humor and legitimate affection and all the ambition and narcissism, all of that, mixed up together. I also think that one should just acknowledge that where he was from, there is something that happens when you do an accent. And in fact, sometimes the one I would say to Bo or, or one of the other writers, this is really good. And I love the idea, but it rhythmically doesn't help. I need, I need at least two more words to rhythmically make this work in his accent because, it just doesn't scan. And that's not iambic pentameter. I'm not talking about that. There is that as well in Shakespeare, but there was sometimes when it's too many lines, it's not enough lines in order for me to make this work for the way he speaks, the way he sounds and what that accent does to emphasis. How much of that character in terms of the musicality of the way he speaks is Bill Clinton. Not really at all. I mean, Clinton, you know, look, Bill Clinton, he had a way of talking, you know, that he was very slow and he felt your pain, you know, but Frank Underwood was a deeper, more direct, and less poetic in the way that, that Clinton would talk. I'll tell you this Clinton story that you'll like. So we decided to do a performance of the Iceman Cometh for the Democratic Party on Broadway. And the president is going to come. He's going to see this four and a half hour play. And then we're going to do this event afterward. And a couple of weeks before we're going to do this event, someone at the White House calls and says, listen, it's very unusual to get the president for like six and a half hours. So we're suggesting that the president come and see the first act. And then, he goes. And I knew what was happening. Now, first of all, Clinton knows this play. He knows what this play is about. And I, you know, as gently as I could said, well, if the president is thinking of leaving at intermission, then I'm afraid we're going to have to cancel the event. There's just no way that. So anyway, then I knew, well, no, it's fine. It's fine. Now I know what was happening. What was happening was that someone had read the play and they were quite concerned. And I'll, I'll tell you why. Because the play is about this character that I, uh, portrayed named Hickey. And in the course of the play, as things get more and more revealed, you realize that this man that I'm playing has been a philanderer and he's cheated on his wife quite a lot. And by the end of the play, he is arrested and taken off because he ended up ending his wife's life because she forgave him too much and he couldn't live with it. So now imagine this, there's 2000 people at the Brooks Atkinson theater watching president Clinton watching this play. And at the end of the night, we take our curtain call. They bring out the presidential podium. Bill Clinton stands up there and he says, well, I suppose we should all thank Kevin and this extraordinary company of actors for giving us a chance to do something. us all. Way too much to think about. and the audience fell over in laughter and then he gave a great speech and i thought that was pretty good way to handle that well in that way him and frank gunner would share like a charisma there's certain presidents that just have politicians that just have this charisma you can't stop listening to them some of it is the accent but some of it is some other magical thing when i uh was starting to do research um i wanted to meet with the whip kevin mccarthy and uh he wouldn't meet with me until i called his office back and said tell him i'm playing a democrat not a republic and then he met with me nice and he was helpful he took me to whip meetings politicians politicians uh so you worked with david fincher that he uh he was the executive producer but he also directed the the first two episodes yeah high level what was it like working with him again uh in which ways do you think he helped guide you in the show to become the great show that it was i i give him uh a huge amount of um credit and not just for what he established but the fact that every director after stayed within that world i think that's why the series had a very consistent feeling to it it was like watching a very long movie the style where the camera went what it did what it didn't do how we used this how we used that how we didn't do this there were there were things that he laid the foundation for that we managed to maintain pretty much until uh bo willeman left the show they got rid of fincher and i was sort of the last man standing in terms of fighting again netflix had never had any creative control at all we had complete creative control but over time they started to get themselves involved because look this is what happens to networks you know they never made a television show before ever and then four years later they they were the best and so you know then you're going to get suggestions about casting and about writing and about who's music and scenes and so there was there was a considerable amount of a pushback that i had to do when they started to get involved in ways that i thought was affecting the quality of the show what are those battles like like i heard that there was a battle with the execs like you mentioned early on about your name not being on the billing for seven i heard that there's battles about the ending of seven which was really um well it's it's pretty dark so what's that battle like how often does that happen how do you win that battle because it feels like there's a line where the networks or the the execs are really afraid of crossing that line into this strange uncomfortable place and then the director great directors and great actors kind of flirt with that line it can happen in different ways i mean i remember one argument we had was we had specifically shot a scene so that there would be no score in that scene so that there was no music it was just two people talking and then we end up seeing a cut where they've decided to put music in and it is against everything that scene's supposed to be about and you have to go and say guys this was intentional we did not want score and now you've added score because what you think it's too quiet you think in our audience can't listen to two people talk for two and a half minutes with this show has proved anything it's proved that people have patience and they're willing to watch an entire season over a weekend um so there are those kind of uh arguments that can happen um you know there's there's there the different different arguments on different levels and they sometimes have to do with i mean look go back to the godfather they wanted to fire pacino because they didn't see anything happening they saw nothing happening so they wanted to fire pacino and then finally coppola thought i'll shoot the scene where he kills the police commissioner and and they'll do that scene now and that was the first scene where they went yeah actually there's something going on there so pacino kept the role you think that godfather's when pacino was like the pacino we know was born or is that more like there's the character that really over the top incentive a woman there's like stages i suppose yeah of course look i think that we we can't forget that pacino is also an animal of the theater you know he does a lot of plays and he started off doing plays and you know movies where you know panic and needle park was his first um and yeah i think there's a that period of time when he was doing some incredible parts and incredible movies when i did a series called wise guy i got cast on a thursday and i flew up to vancouver on a saturday i started shooting on monday and all i had time to do was watch the godfather and serpico and then i went to work would you say ridiculous question godfather greatest film of all time well certainly certainly yes yes um but i also look like i'm i'm allowed to change my opinion i can next week say it's lawrence of arabia or a week after that i can say um sullivan's travels i mean that's the wonderful thing about movies and particularly great movies is when you see them again it's like seeing them for the first time yeah and you pick up things that you didn't see the last time and and for that day you fall in love with that movie you might even say uh to a friend that that is the greatest movie of all time and also i think it's the it's it's it's the degree with which directors are daring i mean kubrick decided to cast one actor to play three men major roles in dr strangelove i mean who who has the balls to do that today i was going to mention when we're talking about seven that just if you're if you're looking at the greatest performances portrayals of murderers so obviously like i mentioned handle lectern silence of the lambs that's up there seven to me is like competing for first place with silence of the lambs but then there's a different one uh with kubrick and uh jack nicholson right with shine with the shining and there's a as opposed to a murderer who's always been a murderer here's a person like an american beauty who becomes that who descends into madness yeah i i read also that jack nicholson improvised here's johnny in that scene i believe that that's a very different performance than yours in seven what uh what do you make of that performance nicholson was one of my favorites when i was a kid he was one of my favorites you make of that performance nicholson's always been such an incredible actor because he has absolutely no shame about being demonstrative and over the top and he also has no problem playing characters who are deeply flawed and he's interested in that i have a pretty good nicholson story though nobody nobody knows you also have a pretty good uh nixon impression but what's the story story is um the story was told to me by a sound man dennis maitland who's a great great great guy he said he uh he was very excited because he he got on pritzy's honor which was jack nicholson angelica houston directed by john houston and he said i was so excited my first day on the movie and i get told to go into mr nicholson's trailer and mic him up for the first scene so i knock on the trailer door and i hear yes and uh come on in i come inside mr nicholson is changing out of his regular clothes and he's putting he's going to put on his costume and so i'm setting up the mic and i'm getting ready and i said mr nicholson i i just wanted to tell you i'm i'm extremely excited to be working with you again it's it's a great pleasure and jack goes did we work together before and he says yes yes we uh we did he's what what film did we do together he says uh well we did um missouri breaks nicholson goes oh my god missouri breaks jesus christ we were out of our minds on that film holy jesus christ wonder i'm alive my god there was so much drugs going on and we were stoned out of our minds holy just then he folds the pants that he's just taken off over his arm and an eighth of coke drops out on the floor dennis looks at it nicholson looks at it jack goes have more in these pants since missouri breaks man i love that guy unapologetically himself oh yeah your impression of him like at the afl was just great. Well, that was for Mike Nichols. Oh, yeah, he had a big impact on your career. A huge impact on my career. Can you talk about him? Like, what role did he play in your life? I think it was, yeah, it was 1984. I went in to audition for the national tour of a play called The Real Thing, which Jeremy Irons and Glenn Close were doing on Broadway that Mr. Nichols had directed. So I went in to read for this character, Brody, who was a Scottish character. And I did the audition, and Mike Nichols comes down the aisle of the theater, and he's asking me questions about where did you go to school and what have you been doing. And I'd just come back from doing a bunch of years of regional theater and different theaters, so I was in New York, and meeting Mike Nichols was just incredible. So Mr. Nichols went, have you seen the other play that I directed up the block called Hurley Burley? And I said, no, I haven't. He says, why not? I said, I can't afford a Broadway ticket. He said, we can arrange that. I'd like you to go see that play, and then I'd like you to come in next week and audition for that. And I was like, okay. So I went to see Hurley Burley, William Hurt, Harvey Keitel, Chris Walken, Candice Bergen, Cynthia Nixon, Jerry Stiller, and I watched this play. It's a David Ray play about Hollywood. This is crazy. I mean, Bill Hurt was like unbelievable. It was extraordinary. Chris Walken. So there's this Harvey Keitel. Walken came in later. Harvey Keitel's playing this part. And I come in and I audition for it, and Nichols says, I want you to understudy Harvey Keitel. I want you to understudy Phil. And I'm like, Phil? I mean, Harvey Keitel is like in his 40s. He looks like he can beat the shit out of everybody on stage. I'm just like 20. He's a four-year-old? And Nichols said, it's just all about attitude. If you believe you can beat the shit out of everybody on stage, the audience will too. So I then started to learn Phil. And the way it works when you're in understudy, unless you're a name, they don't let you rehearse on the stage. You just rehearse in a rehearsal room. But I used to sneak onto the stage and rehearse and try to figure out where the props were. Anyway, one day, I get a call. You're going on today. It's Phil. So I went on. Nichols is told by Peter Lawrence, who's the stage manager, Spacey's going on as Phil. So Nichols comes down and watches the second act. Comes backstage. He says, that was really good. How soon could you learn Mickey? Mickey was the role that Ron Silver was playing, that Chris Walken also played. I said, I, I don't, I don't know. I, I, maybe, maybe a couple of weeks. He goes, learn Mickey too. So I, I learned Mickey. And then one day I'm told, you're going on tomorrow night as Mickey. Nichols comes, sees the second act, comes backstage and says, that was really good. I mean, that was really funny. How soon could you learn Eddie? And so, I became like the pinch hitter on Hurley Burley. I learned all the male parts, including Jerry Stiller's, although I never went on as Jerry Stiller's part. And then I left the play. And I guess about two months later, I get this phone call from Mike Nichols. He's like, Kevin, how are you? And I'm like, I'm fine. What, what can I do for you? He says, well, I'm going to make a film this summer with Mandy and Meryl. And there's a role I'd like you to come in and, and, uh, and audition for. So I went in, auditioned, cast me as this mugger on a subway. Then there's this whole upheaval that happens because he then doesn't continue with Mandy Potemkin. Mandy leaves the movie and he asked Jack Nicholson to come in and replace Mandy Potemkin. So now I had no scenes with him, but I'm in a movie with Jack Nicholson and Meryl Streep. And my first scene, in this movie, which I shot on my birthday, July 26th of 85, um, I got to wink at Meryl Streep, uh, in this scene. And I, I was so nervous. I could, I literally couldn't wink. Nichols had to like, calm me down and help me wink. Um, but that became my first, my very first film. Um, and he was incredible and he let me come and watch when they were shooting scenes I wasn't in. Um, and I remember, and I remember ending up one day in the makeup trailer on the same day we were working Jack and me, we had no scene together, but I remember him coming in and they put him down in the chair and they put cucumbers, frozen cucumbers on his eyes and did his neck. And then they raised him up and did his face. And then I remember Nicholson went like this, looked in the mirror and he went, another day, another $50,000. And walked out of the trailer. Well, what was Christopher Walken like? Oh, so he's a, he's a theater guy too. Oh yeah. He started out as a chorus boy, dancer. Well, I can see that. Yeah. The guy knows how to move. I know I'm walking a long time and I did a Saturday night live where I did, um, we did these, uh, star Wars auditions. I did Chris Walken as, as Hans. So good. And, uh, I'll never forget this. I was in Los Angeles about two weeks after, and I was at Chateau Marmol. There's some party happening at Chateau Marmol. And I saw Chris Walken come out of onto the balcony. And I was like, Oh, it's Chris Walken. And he walked up to him and he went, Kevin, I saw your little sketch. It was funny. Ha ha. Oh man. It was a really good sketch. And that guy, there's certain people that are truly unique and unapologetic. Continue being that throughout their whole career, the way they talk, the musicality of how they talk, how they are, their way of being. He's that. And it somehow works. It's watch. Yeah. I mean, it works in so many different contexts. His, he plays like a mobster in true romance. And it's like genius. That's genius. But he could be, he'd be anything. He could be soft. He could be a bad-ass, all of it. And he's always Christopher Walken, but somehow works for all these different characters. So I guess we were talking about house of cards like two hours ago before we took a tangent upon a tangent. But there's a moment in episode one where president Walker broke his promise to Frank Underwood that he would make him a secretary of state. Was this one, a monster in Frank was born or was the monster always there? The sort of for you looking at that character, was there an idealistic notion to him that there's loyalty and that broke him? Or did he always know that there is this, this whole world is about manipulation and do anything to get power? Well, I mean, it might've been the first moment an audience saw him be betrayed, but it certainly was not the first betrayal he'd experienced. And once you start to get to know him and learn about his life and learn about his father and learn about his friends and learn about their relationship and learn what he was like, even as a cadet, I think you start to realize that this is a man who has, um, very strong beliefs about loyalty. And so it wasn't the first, it was just the first moment that in terms of the story, the storyline that's being built night takes king was the name of our production company. Yeah. Uh, what do you think motivated him at that moment? And throughout the show, was it all about power and also legacy or was there some small part underneath it all where he wanted to actually do good in the world? No, I think power is a, is a afterthought. What he loved more than anything was being able to predict how human beings would react. He was a behavioral psychologist and he could know like he was 17 moves ahead in the chess game. He could know if he did this at this moment that eventually this would happen. He was able to be predictive and was usually right. He knew just how far he needed to push someone to get them to do what he needed them to do in order to make, make the next step work. You've played a bunch of evil characters. Well, you call them evil, but you don't, but, but my, the reason I say that, and I don't mean to be snarky about it, but the reason I say it that way is because I never judged the people I play. And the people that I have played, or that any actor has played, don't necessarily view themselves as this label. It's easy to say, but that's not the way I can think. I cannot judge a character I play and then play them well. I have to be free of judgment. I have to just play them and let the cards drop where they may and let an audience judge. I mean, the fact that you use that word is perfectly fine. That's your, you know. But it's like people asking me, you know, was I really from K-Pax or not? You know, it just entirely depends on your perspective. Do roles like that, like Seven, like Frank Underwood, like Lesser from American Beauty, do they change you psychologically as a person? So walking around in the skin of these, these characters, these complex characters with very different moral systems. I absolutely believe that wandering around in someone else's ideas, in someone else's clothes, in someone else's shoes, teaches you enormously, enormous empathy. And, and that goes to the heart of not judging. And I have found that I have been so moved by, I mean, look, let's, yes, you've, you've identified the darker characters, but I've played Clarence Darrow three times. I've played a play called National Anthems. I've done movies like Recount. I've done films like The Ref. I've done films that, in which, there are, that isn't, that doesn't exist in any of those characters. Paid forward. Those qualities. Paid forward. And so it is, incredible to be able to embrace, those things that I admire and that are, are like me, and those things that I don't admire and aren't like me. But I have to put them on an equal footing and say, I have to just play them as best I can, and not decide to wield judgment over them. - Without judgment. - Without judgment. - In Gulag Archipelago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn famously writes about the line between good and evil, and that it runs through the heart of every man. So the, the full paragraph there, when he talks about the line, "During the life of any heart, this line keeps changing place. Sometimes it is squeezed one way by exuberant evil, and sometimes it shifts to allow enough space for good to flourish. One in the same human being is, at various ages, under various circumstances, a totally different human being. At times, he is close to being a devil, at times to sainthood. But his name doesn't change. And to that name, we ascribe the whole line. We ascribe the whole lot, good and evil." What do you think about this note that we're all capable of good and evil, and throughout life, that line moves and shifts throughout the day, throughout every hour? - Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I've been focused on very succinctly is the idea that every day is an opportunity. It's an opportunity to make better decisions, to learn and to grow. And I also think that, look, I grew up not knowing if my parents loved me, particularly my father. I never had a sense that I was loved, and that stayed with me my whole life. And when I think back at who my father was, and more succinctly, who he became, it was a gradual and slow and slow process. Sad development. When I've gone back and now I've looked at diaries my father kept and albums he kept, particularly when he was a medic in the US Army, served our country with distinction. When the war was over and they went to Germany, the things my father said, the things that he wrote, the things that he believed were as patriotic as any American soldier who had ever served. But then when he came back to America and he had a dream of being a journalist, or his big hope was that he was gonna be the great American novelist, he wanted to be a creative novelist. And so he sat in his office and he wrote for 45 years and never published anything. And somewhere along the way, in order to make money, he became what they call a technical procedure writer, which the best way to describe that is that if you built the F-16 aircraft, my father would have written the manual to tell you how to do it. I mean as boring, as technical, as tedious as you can imagine. And so somewhere in the, 60s and into the 70s, my father fell in with groups of people and individuals, pretend intellectuals, who started to give him reasons why he was not successful as a white Aryan man in the United States. And over time, my father became a white supremacist. And I cannot tell you the amount of times, as a young boy, that my father would sit me down and lecture me for hours and hours and hours about his fucked up ideas of America, of prejudice, of white supremacy. And thank God for my sister, who said, "Don't listen to a thing he says, he's out of his mind." And even though I was young, I knew everything he was saying was against people. And I loved people. I had so many wonderful friends. My best friend, Mike, who's still my close friend to this day, I was afraid to bring him to my house because, I was afraid that my father would find out he was Jewish. Or that my father would leave his office door open and someone would see his Nazi flag or his pictures of Hitler or Nazi books, or what he might say. So, when I found theater in the eighth grade and debate club and choir, and festivals, and plays, and everything I could do to participate in that wouldn't make me have to come back home, I did. And, I've had to reconcile who he became. Because the gap between that man who was in the U.S., the U.S. Army, as a medic, and the man he became, I could never fill that gap. But, I've forgiven him. But then at the same time, I've had to look at my mother and say, she made excuses for him. Oh, he just needs to get it off his chest. Oh, it doesn't matter. Just let him say, so while on the outside i would say oh yeah my mother loved me but she didn't protect me so was the was all the stuff that she expressed and and all of the attention and all the love that i felt was that because i became successful and i was able to fulfill an emptiness that she'd lived with her whole life with him i don't know but i i've had to ask my those questions over these last years to try to reconcile that for myself and the thing you wanted from them and for them is less hate and more love did your dad said you he loves you I don't have any memory of that I was in a program and I they were showing us an experiment that they done with psychologists and mothers and fathers and their children and the children were anywhere between six months and a year sitting in a little crib and the exercise was this parents are playing with the baby right there toys yada yada babies laughing and then the psychologists would say stop and the parent would go like this and you would then watch for the next two-and-a-half three minutes this child trying to get their parents attention in any possible way and I remember when I was sitting in this theater watching this I saw myself that was me screaming and reaching out and trying to get my parents attention that was me and that was not something I'd I'd ever remember before but I I knew that what that baby was going through is there some moments of politics and maybe the private sector that are captured by the by a house of cards like how true to life do you think that is from everything you've seen about politics for maybe everything you think about the politicians of this particular elections I heard so many different reactions from politicians about house cards some would say oh it's not like that at all and then others would say it's closer to the truth than anyone wants to admit and I think I fall down on the side of that idea I have to interview some world leaders some big politicians in your understanding of trying to become Frank Underwood what advice would you give in interviewing Frank Underwood how do you how do you get him to say anything that's at all honest well in Frank's case all you have to do is tell him to look into the camera and he'll tell you he'll tell you what you want to hear yeah unfortunately we don't get that look into the the mind of a person the way we do with Frank Underwood and I think that's a great idea Frank Underwood in real life sadly well but you could say to somebody you like the series house of cards you know I'd love for you to just look into the camera and tell us what's really going on what you really feel about blah blah blah that's a good technique I'll try that with Zelensky with Putin um what do you hope your legacy as an actor is and and as a human being people ask me now what do you hope your legacy as an actor is and and as a human being people ask me now what's your favorite performance you've ever given and my answer is I haven't given it yet so um there's a lot more that I want to be challenged by be inspired by um there's a lot that I don't know there's a lot I have to learn um and that is very exciting place to feel that I'm in I you know it's been interesting because you know we're we're going back we're talking and you know it's it's nice to go back every now and then but I'm focused on on what's next do you hope the world forgives you um What do you hope the world forgives you? people go to church every week to be forgiven and I believe that forgiveness and I believe that redemption are beautiful things I mean look don't forget I live in an industry in which there is a tremendous amount of conversation about redemption from a lot of people who are very serious people in very serious positions who believe in it I mean that guy finally got out of prison he was wrongly accused that guy who served his time and got out of prison we see so many people saying let's find a path for that person let's help that person rejoin society but there is an odd situation if you're in the entertainment industry you're not offered that kind of a path and I hope that the fear that people are experiencing will eventually subside and common sense will get back to the table if it does do you think you have another oscar-worthy performance in you listen if it would piss off jack lemon again for me to win a third time I absolutely think so yeah well you have to mention him again you know Ernest Hemingway once said that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for and uh I agree with him on both counts Kevin thank you so much for talking today thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with Kevin Spacey to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Meryl Streep acting is not about being someone different it's finding the similarity in what is apparently different and then finding myself in there thank you for listening and hope to see you next time