#428 Maggie Freleng with Gary Williams

I'm Jake Brenn and on the Discretsland Podcast I explore the wild lives of rock stars in unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard, the kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga's Accused Up, where that time blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny. Listen to Discretsland on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you give your podcasts. My first guest is Paris Totten, Shakira, Luke and Yerin. I have surprises, many surprises. Welcome to the Sweet 305 Podcast where the new tech comes to life. What the f***? You're the only person I know that loves the Yellow Starbursts. Lemonade. This is Sweet 305. Here, oversharing is encouraged. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lille Ponds on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, How to Copy. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats. Open your free iHeart Radio app search Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with HotaCopy is presented by CVS. A warning for listeners, this episode contains graphic description of alleged sexual assault. Please listen with caution and care. February of 1999, 86-year-old Rosemary Williams arrived at Jamaica Hospital in Queens. She claimed that she'd been raped at knife point. At the time, Rosemary's grandson Gary was on parole from a drug possession charge and had been staying with her. Rosemary told police that she and Gary had argued about a friend he'd had over. Then later that night, she said he came into her bedroom, threatened her, and then assaulted her. Right from the beginning, they were conflicting versions of what occurred. But the accusation that led to his arrest and indictment was that he raped and satanized his grandmother. My mom's told me over the phone. I said, "Are you serious?" She said, "Yes." She said, "They're looking for you." But when you hear this, this is like crazy, this lie, this is, it's wild. What were you thinking? The emotion, the emotion, the day I faced in my life. I have to face it every day and end with these guys. Gary Williams, I've been incarcerated for 24 years. From Lava for Good, this is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling. Today, Gary Williams. Gary Williams has been incarcerated in New York since 2001. He's serving 25 to life for a crime that, as you'll hear, never happened. Since I'm in New York, I took a short two-hour trip to visit Gary at Fishkill Correctional Facility in Beacon. It's a medium security prison with razor wire fences surrounding the daunting brick building. Inside was disorganized and chaotic. Our interview was even cut short by a lockdown for an unknown reason. When that happened, Gary was taken back to his cell immediately. However, we were able to speak for an hour. I was born in Snow Hill, Maryland. And I was raised and stopped to make a coin. We moved to Far Rockaway. So I grew up in Jamaica and Far Rockaway. I got an older brother named Aaron, another brother named Manu. Aaron, Diane, Manu, Michelle, and me. Gary's parents were manual Williams and Margaret Bratton. When Gary was around two, the family moved in with Gary's paternal grandparents, Franklin and Rosemary Williams, on a hundred and forty second street in Jamaica, Queens. The kids knew them as Daddy Frank and Mama Rose. But the grandfather, he cooks breakfast every morning. So I actually did up in the morning and go sit down in the chair and watch them cook. A his great sausage. And he's to give me a half a cup of coffee. I remember that. I look forward to that when I go to sleep at night. I'm like this. Daddy Frank will cook me breakfast in the morning. You know, I look forward to that. He took us to Florida. We were the youngest grandkids. So he took the two youngest boys everywhere. He went baseball games everywhere. Yeah, I had some good times in that house. Well, he was, to me, he was a solder earth. He was a very nice person. This is Gary's older brother, Aaron Williams. He gave all his grandchildren when he worked and everything. He gave all of us allowance on Fridays and he took us to baseball games. He even came to our games and everything a lot. And then what about Mama Rose? What was she like? Well, she was a piece of work. She never went anywhere with us. She was drinking. That was a boy that was a done deal. She would play the numbers. She was drink. And she would have barbecues and she would buy a friends over. And we had a nice time. But like I said, when she started drinking everything was a little hair wire. She was very nasty when she drank. As Aaron remembers it, Mama Rose didn't seem to care for Gary much. When we first moved up here, she was nice to all of us. But it seemed like for some reason, along the way, she just started resenting Gary. It seemed like whatever he did, she then like it. She resented him a lot. I don't know why. Mama Rose's younger son, Richard, Gary's uncle Rick, was a source of tension for Gary as well. He didn't like me since I was a little boy. I used to hear him talk about my dad behind his back. So I never really told my dad because my uncle, like he's the type of person that like to fight. So I didn't want to see two brothers fight over something like that. I tried to avoid things like that. He was a drug user back in the 60s and 70s. Every time I had dad living on money, he don't love to pay my dad back. He tried to get money from me. I wouldn't give it to him. I said, "How you respect me to the money you can't pay my dad money? How many years you owe my father? Over five years? I mean, you ain't paying them." When Gary was around 12, the family left his grandparents' house and moved to a place in Springfield Gardens. Soon after that, Gary's parents separated and his mother moved out. She just packed the stuff in the left. Nobody knew where she went. She was saying she left the kids with my father. So nobody knew where she was at. So I said, "Well, I know where she worked at." So Gary says one day he got on his bike and rode to her workplace, the post office at Kennedy Airport about two miles away. When his mother got off work, he says he saw her get into a car with his older brother, Aaron. So they drove right by me. So when they did, I followed them all the way to Far Rockway. When she was getting out of the car, I was like, "Mom, I found you." Gary's mom was living in a one bedroom apartment at the time. His father was moving down to Delaware with his sisters. So Gary's mother got a bigger place and he and his two brothers moved in with her in Far Rockway. I'm blocking the half away from the barn walk. I had to get used to that. Me and my brother used to erase each other paying in a sand. They had basketball court there, handball court, and a baseball court. Were you particularly good at any of them? I basically wanted to do it because my older brothers did it, but I was alright. Gary's teens were spent living near the beach, playing sports and hanging out with his brothers. But when he reached his 20s, he started getting into trouble. Then he said, "You know, I was a thief. I ain't a lot. I did that. I have two ribs in the drug case." Were you working at all? I used to drive trucks. LBX, trucking company. I used to drive for them. I used to work in TSS department store. So you were working, so how come you felt like you needed to rob or do things like that? I don't know. I guess it wasn't paying enough. Between 1984 and 1992, Gary served time on and off for three felony convictions, one for selling drugs, and one for each for robbery and attempted robbery. In February of 1999, when he was 36 years old, he was out on parole for a drug charge. With no place else to go, he was once again staying under Mama Rose's roof in Queens. She was now in her 80s and a widow. Daddy Frank had died in 1986. Gary's father, Manuel, was living in Maryland and coming around to help Mama Rose fix up the house so she could sell it. Tell me a little bit about Mama Rose. Mama Rose was kind of differently getting along with. She was kind of difficult, but I did my best. I do things around the house for if she asked me to, I do it. So why was she difficult to get along with? Because of the type of approach she is. I mean, you got to go hallway. It's hallway or it's the highway. She's always in. People's business, you know, I hear a coming, I might go that way. You know what I'm saying? I try to ward up sometimes. I do, I do that leave. Gary began to notice that sometimes Mama Rose didn't seem quite all there. She was starting to get forgetful. When she asked me to go to the store three times in a row, two or three times for the same thing, she kept on giving me a fresh 20. Now, in the second I'm like this, I just went to the store for you. It got the same thing. She was like, just go again, all right? So I just took the money and went again. What was it that she wanted? I think it was a tall can of bit. She was a, excuse my spits, she was a bitch. This is Gary's brother, Aaron again. My Rose was a big liar too. Like what kinds of things had she made up? She was like, my mother would cook dinner and everything. She would tell her friends that she cooked the dinner and took, you know, took the credit for it. Like I said, she was a piece of work. I stayed with my father overnight when I was helping him fix the house. And one of her girlfriends came over and they got the drink and playing cards and everything. It was in a winter time with snow on the steps out front. So they got an argument so she told her to get the hell out of the house and she went to the front and doing the models follow right behind her and kicked her down into the icy steps. She didn't go to church like she said. She wouldn't, I mean, I can't even remember the last time she went to church. I think last time she went to church when my granddad was living. She liked playing her numbers. She liked going to the land of city. She's like, she's like any other lady of age, you know what I'm saying? My grandma is not gambled and drinking tall boys so maybe not. One week Gary had a girlfriend named Sharon visiting from Maryland. When they sat down to dinner, Mama Rose noticed that Sharon put hot sauce on her potato chips and she did not like that. So maybe a hour later, my Rose called me and she says, "When is she leaving?" I said, "I think she's leaving Sunday or Monday." She said, "When she do, she can't come back." So I said, "Why? What's wrong?" She says, "Anybody put hot sauce on potatoes is on drugs." I said, "You don't even know her. You just met her. How you gonna say she on drugs?" She goes, "Hey, trust me. I've been living along with you. She's on drugs." The arguments continued and within a week or so, Gary had enough of Mama Rose being in his business. And I got fed up with it. I was like, "It's okay. I'm out of here." You know what I'm saying? So I put a key on the table and packed my little stuff I had. Gary took off and went down to Delaware where some of his family lived. He knew he was taking a risk jumping parole by leaving the state, but he had had it with Mama Rose. Early Saturday morning, February 6, 1999, Rose Mary Williams called her daughters-in-law and told them that she had been raped by her grandson, Gary Williams. My name is Elizabeth Felber and I had the wrongful conviction unit at the Legal Aid Society. Elizabeth has been working on Gary's case since 2019. Right from the beginning, they were conflicting versions of what occurred, but the accusation that led to his arrest and indictment was that he raped and satanized his grandmother. Here's what Mama Rose told the police had happened that night and what she later testified to at trial. And just a heads up, this next section is graphic. Between Thursday and Friday, like early Friday mornings, say around four, Gary knocked on his grandmother's door. And when he came in, he was naked, he was holding a knife, he was smoking a cigarette, and he was wearing a condom. And he told her that he wanted to have sex, although he said it a little more graphically according to Grandma Rose. And that he tried to vaginally penetrate her, was unable to do so when God Baby Oil ported all over her. Sorry, it's just so awkward to have to tell this story. And then he had oral sex, put his mouth to her vagina. And then she claimed that he tried to put his penis in her mouth and she told him that if he did that, she was going to bite his penis off. He said, I'm not going to kill you. And she said at another point, he sat down and started to cry and said he was sorry. And then he went into his bedroom because he was living with her at the time. She told him she would make breakfast for him. And then she said when it looked like he had fallen asleep, she ran down the stairs and that he came after her calling Mama Rose, come back, that she ran outside yelling fire. She ran about a block away, I guess, to a school that was people were dropping their kids off at school, told some woman, help, help. My grandson's going crazy and the woman offered to call the police. She didn't want to go to the police. She said, drive me to my friend's house who was right down the street from where she lived. Mama Rose stayed overnight with her friend Mary Cunningham. The next day, she called Gary's mother, Margaret Bretton, and told her that Gary had come into her bedroom and raped her at knife point and that there was blood everywhere. Margaret immediately called Gary's father and told him what Mama Rose had said. Manuel and his brother Richard went to Mama Rose's house. Manuel later reported seeing no blood on her bed or in her bedroom. Nevertheless, the police were called. I believe it was her younger son who called the police. She didn't even want to call the police. She did not want to go to the hospital. I suspect that whatever story she concocted, she realized it had gotten out of control and she was trying to shut it down, but it was like, you know, the train had already left the station. Police soon arrived at the scene to investigate, led by Detective Linda Hardy. However, no official sex crimes unit was dispatched. No evidence was collected at her house. There should have been baby oil left traces. You know, even if someone had taken off the sheets, there should have been baby oil on the mattress, a knife, a cigarette that was put out in an anastray, a condom. She claimed she washed herself with a washcloth. So none of that was collected. And there's no indication that the crime scene unit even showed up. Richard took Mama Rose to Jamaica hospital in Queens where she was examined by Dr. David Ware. Dr. Ware was a resident at the time. He did not conduct a proper forensic exam and he failed to collect any physical evidence that would have supported Mama Rose's story. He should have swabbed her mouth and given, you know, those would have been samples that they could have checked for any kind of, you know, DNA of Gary Williams or even baby oil, honestly, anything that would have backed up her story. Most significantly, Dr. Ware did not follow standard procedure by administering a rape kit. They didn't. They didn't follow it. And they have 100 excuses for why they didn't follow it. The clothing wasn't taken. A rape kit wasn't done. So there was no physical evidence to support her story. Gary was unaware of all of this. After going to Delaware, he went to stay in Newport News for a journey with Sharon. When he talked to his mother on the phone, she did tell him police were looking for him. And Gary assumed it was because he had jumped parole until she told him what Mama Rose had accused him of. I said, "Are you serious?" She said, "Yes." She said, "They're looking for you." You know, I'm saying, "I'm speculating. I'm only speculating. One person looking for me. But for all of us." That's what I'm speculating when she said what she said happened. I wasn't there. I wasn't living there. I was going. Gary decided the best thing to do would be to turn himself into the authorities in Virginia. When you turn yourself in, what were you thinking? Were you like, "This is all going to get cleared up?" Like, "What did you think?" "Yeah. I want to get this behind me. I want to get this overweight." You know, "I'm innocent. Yes. Let's go." Yeah. But it didn't happen that way because I had to do a parole violation first. But the parole violation was nothing compared to what was coming next. Once Gary returned to New York, he was arrested and charged with first degree rape, satamy, possession of a weapon, and second degree menacing an incest. So do you remember when this happened? When I know my mother called me and told me that they arrested Gary and she told me the reason why, and I just couldn't believe it. I said, "It got to be lies. It's something they write here." I know Gary. Gary would never do anything like that. His trial was set for July of 2001 in front of Judge Richard Buckter. The prosecutor was assistant district attorney, Eric Rosenbaum, and Gary's attorney was Lewis Meahan. So the first trial, how were you feeling the first trial after hearing everything? And they're going to do the verdict. How did you feel? I was nervous. No. I already know if they could pick me, they won't give me 25 of life because of my past history. I already know that. It um, it is. They asked me on plea bargains that I didn't take. - What did they offer you? - Oh, they offered me a flat 15. First of all, they don't offer nobody but my record flat bed. They always put the L behind it, 15 alive. But with me, they offered me a flat 15. I told them, I did not do it, I'm not taking it. Then a month and a half later, he says, the lawyer will like this, he says, okay, the flat 15 is off the table. They offered me a flat five just for the day. You want it? - No, he's not. - Then when they had to split, they offered me a one and a half to three. - And you didn't take that either? - No, I didn't do it. - The jury believed that there just wasn't enough evidence to convict and the first trial ended in a hung jury. - So he actually had two trials, which I find is not uncommon when we have wrongful convictions. Like the juries are pretty smart and they really wrestled with the lack of evidence. At that point, Gary requested a change of attorney. Harold Aaron Trial was appointed and reported ready for trial just a few days later. And that is not nearly enough time to prepare for a case based on such serious charges. - He gives me a new lawyer. I think all of the Wednesday or Thursday that we was picking a new jury Monday. So it's no way, the new attorney didn't know investigation. It's no way. It wasn't no private investigation. He just took me to trial without investigating the case. - I see, you just got this case last week. He said, "Yeah, but I glanced through your paperwork." He says, "They got nothing on you." I said, "Why am I hitting?" He says, "Thus me, you will be all right." - 24 years later, here I go. (soft music) - Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can listen to this and all the Lava For Good podcasts, one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava For Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Freedom Agenda is a proud sponsor of this episode of Wrongful Conviction. Freedom Agenda is led by people directly impacted by incarceration and they're organizing to get mayor Eric Adams to follow the law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now, thousands of people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions. Freedom Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more just city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting the rights of people involved in the criminal legal system and ending the cycle of violence that Rikers perpetuates. To learn more about the campaign to close Rikers and to sign up for Freedom Agenda's mailing list, go to campaigntocloserikers.org/getinvolved or follow at Freedom Agenda NY on social media. (soft music) In September of 2001, Gary's second trial began. What was really striking about the trial was there was absolutely no law enforcement evidence offered, they had no police officer testify a trial. I've never seen that at a trial. Even if it's an officer called to the witness stand to say I arrested John Smith, like nothing. Instead, the prosecution focused on Mama Rose as their primary witness. In her testimony, she repeated the story she had told Detective Hardy. She and Gary had argued he later came to her bedroom, threatened her with a knife and assaulted her. Mary Cunningham took the stand to say that Mama Rose had banged on her door, told her that she'd been raped and then spent the night. Gary's uncle Rik testified to driving his mother to the hospital and said that he'd seen bruises around her mouth that day. Mama Rose had testified that she was black and blue all over from him, hitting her mouth with his penis. That was her testimony and Richard at the first trial said that she had lacerations all over her mouth. And at the second trial, he said she was very black and blue. So he corrected himself. The most damning testimony that Jerry heard was from Dr. Ware, the resident at Jamaica Hospital. He told the court that when he examined Mama Rose, he believed her account of the assault. Even though he hadn't observed any injuries. Again, not part of a typical forensic exam. It's not their place to vouch for the credibility of a witness. But he said she seemed very credible. He said because there was no rape kit, he made a point of being extra careful in his evaluation. He said he didn't see any injuries. He didn't see any injuries on her vagina or her mouth. He claimed that you couldn't see bruising on her because she was African-American. So it's hard to see bruising on an African-American person. And I mean, I think the thing that jumped out at me the most was he said he was really surprised because she had a-- this is a quote-- a very elastic vagina that for an 85-year-old woman, it was more like someone in their 60s. When asked why he didn't follow hospital protocol and administer a rape kit, Dr. Ware gave a number of excuses. The stated recent on the record was that they ran out of rape kits at Jamaica Hospital. And he didn't know where rape kits came from. He said, oh, I think they're like a law enforcement thing. There's a lot of hospitals that are coast by. And sometimes the SVU detective has a rape kit. And ambulances have rape kits. They're pretty easy to get. You would know where rape kits come from. And you would know that you could do a makeshift rape kit if you improvise a rape kit if you had to. [MUSIC PLAYING] I mean, how does a case like this wind up being tried? If there's no evidence, it was really just Mama Rose and Richard. Yes. Mama Rose and Richard. And the DA in his summation said he fled. So that's the use that against him. He fled. They looked for him for weeks and weeks and weeks. The guilty flee. Poor Mama Rose, she was so embarrassed that she had to go through this, the indignity of it. He really appealed to their sympathy. So they really, I think it was a lot of bias. And they went with Mama-- why would she come in? Was basically what they said. Why would she come in? She's not seen. I don't know. I mean, it is a crazy story, I know. Throughout the paperwork, you see all these people acting like they have a crystal ball and they can tell what the truth is. I spoke to grandma to Mama Rose. And I believe her something happened here, something happened. She's a 85 years old and he has felony record. They just decided that he's a terrible person and poor Mama Rose. She's like baking brownies and going to church. They have this whole picture of her, which leaves out the card parties and getting drunk and mean and stepping out with a married man named Fred. It doesn't really matter. But they just-- they came up with their own narrative. After three days of deliberation, the jury returned a split verdict. They acquitted Gary of the rape and weapons charges. But they convicted him of incest, second degree menacing and first degree sotamy. Gary was sentenced to 25 to life in prison. I'm not sure what convinced the jury. I think it was probably a compromise. I'm guessing that there were still a lot of jurors that didn't believe it. At the first trial, several of the notes were like, no, can you explain? Can you still convict if there's no evidence? They really honed in on the fact that there was no evidence. I believe that I'm here by the doctor line, understand. This is why I believe I was convicted by the doctor line. He lied more than one time. And he convinced the jury. This is why I made it. There were so many lies and so many things that weren't presented in this case, in this trial. And there's a bunch of bullshit to me. I mean, if you undo this to a person, take that life just because you want to win, and that's kind of crappy. [MUSIC PLAYING] My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin. Samira, Y, Gracie. I'm so excited. On the bouncy bed. You have surprises. Many surprises. Welcome to Sweet 305, where the good chat comes to life. What up? [MUSIC PLAYING] You're the only person I know that loves the Yellow Starbursts. [SPEAKING SPANISH] This is Sweet 305. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Ponds as part of my Toyota Podcast Network on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan and on the Discretsland Podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars in unbelievable true crime stories for music history. At the time Paul McCartney spent in one of the world's most notorious prisons. Imagine that. Your Paul McCartney, it's 1980. You're an ex-beetle. And you're doing time in one of Japan's worst prisons right there alongside Yakuza Gangsters and for a ridiculous charge. Or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of. Who is the artist Lady Gaga is being accused of doing the unthinkable to? After allegedly stealing her music in style to become famous. And what about that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped a serial killer? The man who had given her that ride she barely escaped from was Ted Bundy. Listen to Discretsland on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. If you haven't heard, Arnie Podcast is called "Hey Jonas." And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown, that's right, 11 herself. We talk about her new movie and all of home's three family life and all the amazing things she has going on right now. Of course. This is blue my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown. You have over 60 animals. First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody? And second, do you have favorites? Who are they and why? Yeah, I need to know about this. Okay. I don't know where the number 60 and I really got to figure that out. And I could actually have over 60. I just need to really know that number. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed and yeah, in the bed, literally sleeping in the bed. Plus we find out what she really feels about stranger things in. Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life. I could have never have guessed it. I started when I was 10 years old. Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now. Go check it out. Listen to "Hey Jonas" on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. It's hard to have friends in prison. It's a whole world in here. I ain't know how to deal with it. I ain't never been in prison for nothing like this. This right here is different. It's a different hit. They had a split verdict. I was felt like guilty of it right now. Right. But it's like, it's still the same though. It's still the same to these people because I got to be on, I got to be on, I got to be on my p's and chews. Every step of the day, every way, every way I go, I got to watch. Because I don't know what's coming. What could happen? A lot of things can happen. I know this one white guy, I saw two guys run up in the cell and beat him up because he had a case like this. Has things happened to you? Yes. I got jumped twice by correction officers. Were you close with your parents? Yeah. And did they always believe you, believe in your innocence? Yes. So what was that like trying to maintain a relationship with your family while in prison? It was really hard because they all moved down south once they retired. They moved back down south. So it was hard. It was hard for me to get a visit because nobody would bring my moms up and my p's was sickly. She got sick. They both passed away. It was rough because I couldn't go to the infusion. I called because they were having my mother services. He accepted the call and I was listening to the preacher. I was listening, you know what I'm saying? For half an hour. So that was it. Over the course of a decade, Gary filed many appeals, all of which were denied. Finally in 2013, Gary reached out to Elizabeth Felber. Gary first wrote to me before I was working in this, you know, doing wrongful conviction work. I had had a few cases where people were exonerated. And I wish I still had that letter was 10 years ago, but just reading it, I was just blown away by what a horrifying case it was. And I called his parents and I remembered they both sadly have passed away since then. They were the nicest people and they both were like, oh thank God somebody is finally trying to help Gary. But made you say, I need to look deeper into this because this does sound like a he said, she said, it's a difficult one. He told me there was no rape kit. There was no physical evidence. I think that there was nothing supporting the allegations. There were no injuries. I mean, if he had really raped an 85 year old woman, like there would have been injuries. In 2019, Elizabeth became the head of a newly formed wrongful conviction unit at the legal aid society. And she began working on Gary's case officially. She hired an expert Chad Vasquez to delve into the police investigation. He was a sex crimes detective for 20 years that I've never seen a case like this. And this investigation and prosecution are fatally flawed was his words. He said nobody wants to be the person that accuses the person who's making these allegations of making it up. Especially an 85 year old grandmother. Like nobody wants to say, I don't believe you, Mama Rose. But they have an obligation to follow the protocols and they didn't do that either in the investigation or at the hospital. He said you have to call the crime scene unit. They should have spoken to the outcry witness. The woman next door, they should have tried to track down this alleged woman in the car. They should have obtained the clothing. So he said none of that was done in this case. Elizabeth also consulted a forensic expert, Elaine Pagliaro, a sexual assault nurse examiner, Melissa Stone, and a retired nurse who had worked at Jamaica Hospital at the time of Mama Rose's visit, Juanita Vega. All three of them agreed that Dr. Ware had not followed standard protocol for a rape examination. I don't believe that if a jury heard what we've learned from these, you know, this nurse and this forensic scientist that they would have convicted him because both jury struggled. And as it turns out, there appear to have been some family dynamics at play. I personally think the first lawyer did a better job than the second lawyer because he brought out some facts that, you know, gave the younger son a motive to lie. By the time of the first trial, Gary's uncle Rick had sold Mama Rose's house in Queens for around $70,000. Mama Rose was now living with him in New Jersey. And she testified there was no money left over. So someone made about $70,000 on the house. And it sounds like it wasn't her. What happened was Rick took over everything. Rick snatched it up, took it to his house. He got on the side of the papers, the power attorney. Then he went to the soul of the house. Then after he got the money, he put it in the nursing home. He got rid of him. He also said there wasn't a will, but we have a copy of the will and the will specifically said that the proceeds of the house were to be shared with the two other siblings. So we think, you know, the uncle had a financial motive for backing her up. After interviewing a number of family members, Elizabeth learned something else that really turned the case upside down. According to Gary's brother, manual, who also went by skip, Mama Rose had regrets in her later years. And was dropping hints that her accusation wasn't true. And skip said that he and Mama Rose were drinking beer one day on the porch. She said, I'm too old to go to prison, but it's time to get Gary out. And he took that as an admission on her part. I think she told my father because he told me that Mama Rose and Rick had said, I think Gary's been there long enough for these times to get him out. To me, that's a mission of guilt. Both of them, the ones that lied, both of them took her to their grave and our Gary's still in there. Half his life was spent in jail because of this. And you mean your uncle as in both of them? Yes. And he was her child and they were two of a kind. He was money hungry. I'm telling you right now, he's money hungry. And so what would what would getting rid of Gary have to do with anything? Why would that help their situation? Well, if one thing Gary was inquisitive and they knew that my father would do anything to help Gary out, I had nothing to do with neither one of them after they did this shit. Wow. Excuse my expression. That's okay. Yeah, it really fucked me up. I mean, I couldn't believe this shit. And to me, I thought all these years you admit what you did and then you took it to your grave with you and still locked up behind it and what they did. Today is January 9th, 2020. This is the best to get a time of school, family, and a great society. I am at Israel Hospital in Newark, New Jersey. So what's your name? Richard R. Wade. Alma Rose passed away in 2011. An uncle Rick died in March of 2020. But when he was interviewed by a legal aid investigator for Elizabeth, Uncle Rick was Rick turned out to have some surprising revelations about Mama Rose. He did not have sex around, I don't believe. How'd you find that out? Just talking with her and listening to her and feeling her out. She just felt bad. I don't think she really had it on the stage, the depth of this thing. And she just felt bad. She showed her play. Show her did it. I think her mind wasn't right. I think she was very remorseful to that. That she had to testify against her. That he really didn't do her things that they claimed you did. There was no pitch. There was no real kid. Skip said that she was mad at him and she wanted to punish him by getting him locked up. And she was pressured into testifying by the prosecution who said he could sue you. But I don't think she realized that accusing someone of rape, particularly if they have a record which she did could result in a life prison and prison sentence. And perhaps that's because what Gary had noticed was off with Mama Rose was that she might have been suffering from dementia. Like the father said he thought that his mother wasn't right in the head that she was a little senile. Even I think my uncle said in one of his statements that it was he thinks that she was seen out. And nobody never tested her for dementia. Old Thomas disease. I had two lawyers and nobody never tested her. Do you forgive your grandmother? Yes. I have to. Because I believe that something was wrong with her. And she met to my uncle that it didn't happen. With all of this new evidence, the expert testimony along with the family statements, Elizabeth believes that they can show that Gary's rights were violated and that he will be released. Where is Gary's case at now? I literally just filed a motion to vacate the conviction based on ineffective assistance of counsel for not doing a proper investigation, for not consulting with experts, for not familiarizing himself with the trial of the first transcript, which is a gold mine to have a transcript of what everyone's going to say already. And I also moved to just vacate the conviction because it was, remember the exact language, but based upon fraud and misrepresentation because the DA relied heavily on Dr. Weir's testimony, which is a series of misrepresentations. He will be up for parole next year. However, catch 22, when you've been convicted of a sex crime, you will have to take a sex offender treatment program and admit your guilt. So, you know, that's problematic and he will also be a registered sex offender. Who wants to be a sex offender or registered sex offender? Everywhere I go, everybody knows my business. Why would I want that? And if I really did it, I would have took them plea-bought. Yeah, let me take it. Now. [MUSIC] When you get out, what kinds of things do you want to do? Go visit my brother, spend time with his grandkids, spend time with his grandkids, spend time with my own great nieces and nephews that I never met before. Spend time with my fiancee. Eat the food I like to eat. What's that? Pizza. They got a pizza here, but they eat pizza like I did. Pizza, steak, you know. Good food. Let's try to eat every day. Well, I want to eat. That's what I want to eat. Yeah. [MUSIC] Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the links in the episode description to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our executive producers, Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Werdis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Sorrows. Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Polly with additional production by Jeff Clyburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by three time Oscar nominated composer, J Ralph. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms at LavaforGood and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of LavaforGood podcast in association with Signal Company number one. [MUSIC] I'm Jake Brennan and on my podcast, Discretsland, I tell the stories behind music's biggest names. Like how the story of the food fighters isn't just about music, it's about grief, shock, and the moment everything changed. Imagine that. You're in the biggest band on the planet as Dave Grohl was in 1994 in Nirvana. In the phone rings, and you learn that you're singer, your friend, the reluctant voice of a generation, Kurt Cobain is dead. Listen to Discretsland on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin. We have surprises. Many surprises. Welcome to the Sweet 305 podcast where the Goup Check comes to life. What the f**k? You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst. Lemonade. This is Sweet 305. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lelipons on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. Joy 101 with HotaCot V is presented by CVS.