42 – Decolonization, Love and Witnessing at Mill Bay Nature School - Pt. 1 (w Cayla Brown & Kim Ondrik)

This podcast is proudly sponsored by Headwater Learning Solutions, an organization that is driving lasting change in our schools, our communities, and our education system. Learn more at headwaterlearning.com. What up folks, I'm Natalie Vardvasso and welcome to another episode of Edgy Crush, a podcast that celebrates the brave humans who are reimagining education through a liberating praxis. To all of my audacious change agents, I hope as you listen, you feel affirmed, inspired, and equipped. Keep asking the right questions, embracing complexity, and continuously empowering yourself and others. You are not alone in this work. In fact, you might just be my next Edgy Crush. Have you ever met someone so authentically and unapologetically themselves that, to share space with them is an educational experience in and of itself? Those types of people who make you wonder, what is it that I would be willing to speak up for? What do I believe in? On today's episode, I'm talking to two people who have been that type of educator in my life. Before we dive into part one of my interview with them both, I want to share the stories of how I came to know each of them and how together, they taught me one of the most important lessons of all, how to show up when you can't control the outcome. I first met Kimondra in my teacher preparation program when my cohort visited her unique classroom space called the Ozone. It was a grade 6/7 split and frankly it didn't resemble a classroom at all. In fact, walking into the ozone felt more like walking through an art installation. I recall tons of greenery and student work covering every inch of the space even the ceiling. What I most remember, however, is the way the students moved with confidence and ownership in that space. As we entered the classroom, we were immediately created by student ambassadors who toured us through their room before leading us to join them on benches which had been arranged in a circle off to one side of the room. Needless to say, no desks were present in the Ozone. Then, the students began the presentation of their burning questions projects, which saw them seeking answers to those questions which held deep personal relevance for them. One presentation that stuck with me was a deep dive into how to get a dog to stop peeing on the carpet. As the student in question was terrified that his parents would get rid of his beloved pet if he didn't figure this problem out. I was in complete awe of this learning space and the teacher who had created it, so I decided to tell her as much. Kim listened deeply as I talked and then said the one thing that I wasn't prepared to hear. She said that even in her brief exchange she saw my heart as an educator. A heart that would allow me to do all that she had in perhaps even more. I was taken immediately a back. Who was this woman to believe in me despite hardly knowing me? My sparkly positivity as a teacher candidate was hiding some deep fears and reservations about my place in the field. The anxiety of having to take care of a classroom of students was consuming me because I wasn't one of those teacher candidates that joined the program after years of working with youth. In fact, I didn't even know if I loved kids enough to show up like Kim did. Reflecting on that moment, I realized now that Kim had revealed a tragic flaw in me as a young educator that I believed I had nothing to offer outside of carefully planned lessons and activities. That who I was as a person would not make me a great educator. As in all tragic tales, this flaw led to my eventual downfall in this story months later. At the conclusion of my teacher education program, I was invited back to join a panel with Kim and others for the new teacher candidates that were coming in the following year. I quickly agreed but felt my anxiety creep up as the morning of the panel approached. I didn't know what they were going to ask and I definitely didn't think I had anything of value to offer. Once more, who I was and what I had learned did not seem like enough. The tension built and built until finally I decided to back out on the morning of the panel. I said I was sick and in truth, I probably was, but I understand now that my symptoms were probably more of a manifestation of the anxiety that came from my low self-esteem. The guilt I felt at deciding to back out at the last minute has stuck with me for years. However, I've never forgotten Kim or the educator that she believed I could be. Six years after that story took place, I began a new role as a teacher leader within my school. I was thrilled with this growth opportunity but felt similar anxieties creep up as this was not a situation I could control with carefully planned lessons and activities. At the same time that I started this new role, a new teacher joined our school community and as fate would have it, she shared that her mentor teacher during her practicum was none other than Kim Andrick. That new teacher's name was Kayla Brown. I could see the similarities to Kim immediately, the passion, the resolve, the heart, and in many ways it felt like the universe was giving me another opportunity to open my heart and embrace uncertainty as an educator. We know it's that place where deeper learning lives. Kayla joining my school community was like a cosmic reminder of my past mistakes and an invitation to grow. As a new teacher to our school, Kayla quickly established herself as someone who would speak with confidence and self-assuredness in meetings. And it made me question all the times I had chosen to hold my tongue even when I didn't agree. Her willingness to transgress in the classroom allowed me to reflect on all the times I had just followed along with my colleagues, worried about what would happen if I were to break away from the herd. Eventually, Kayla became my co-chair on the assessment committee. And her authenticity and rider-die trusted me inspired me to find my own voice and finally become an advocate for change. Even though I knew what I was advocating for wouldn't be well received by all, she taught me how to show up, even when I couldn't control the outcome and I learned that it's the beauty of a vision for learners and learning that allows us to walk through the uncertainty, but more importantly, I learned that we were never meant to walk that path alone, that we need each other. By working with Kayla, I felt like I had found the heart that Kim saw in me all those years before and rewritten the ending to my story. Three years into our time together as colleagues and opportunity presented itself for Kayla to move back to BC and work with Kim to build a new middle school on Vancouver Island. Not to get too poetic about it all, but it almost felt as though the universe had given me Kayla for a brief time to heal my own tragic flaw through our deeply collaborative relationship before freeing her to return back to where she truly belongs with Kim. Now, for the first time, I've invited both of these educators in my own life to join me together for a conversation about how they are once again leaning into the unknown by leaning into each other to advance truth and reconciliation at Mill Bay Nature School. Our conversation was so deeply personal, profound, and transformative that I couldn't stop recording. So for the first time on the edu crash podcast, I've broken this interview into two parts. Start your journey with me here, but I also invite you to go deeper in part two. In part one of my conversation with Kim Andrick and Kayla Brown, we ground their story in the setting of Mill Bay Nature School, where they are learning that decolonization has everything to do with love and witnessing. Hi everybody, I am joined tonight by not one, but two guests, Kim Andrick and Kayla Brown. Kim is presently the head learner and co-creator of Mill Bay Nature School, which is an innovative school in school district 79, which is on Vancouver Island, to British Columbia. And she previously was also the co-creator of several other innovative sites of learning and growth, two of which I have had the good fortune to come into contact with ozone and burning community school, the latter of which was the subject of her inquiry for her thesis. And Kayla Brown is not a first year teacher, but a first year educator at Mill Bay Nature School. Previously, she was in Alberta with me at Calgary Academy, and she's helping to co-create the middle-years program there. But aside from that, I know her as a very passionate learner and unlearner and someone who relentlessly challenges the status quo. So first and foremost, welcome to both of you. Welcome to Edgy Crush. Thank you. We're excited to be here. I'm excited. I was just saying before we hit record that what's so cool about this conversation tonight is that my story has intersected with both of yours at very different points in my life, but we've never been in the same space together. So it's going to be really interesting to see how all of our different stories finally intersect. Yes, let's start with you, Kim. I have given everybody a brief overview of who you are and what you do, but what's your story? Hmm. So I guess I would say that I became an educator to try to change the system. I was the kind of kid that knew how to play the game, that knew that the way other kids were being treated in school, wasn't fair or ethical, I think I is fair to say. And yet I wanted to be a winner and I wanted to win the prizes and get the scholarships. And so I did the funny dance of knowing things weren't right, but accepted it to be the winner. And then at the end of that, I think probably the end of high school, recognizing that I wasn't happy, I didn't feel fulfilled, I felt pretty lonely and disconnected from myself. And so I went into university being told that I should be a lawyer because I was good at school and I wasn't a science person, so I wouldn't be a doctor. And then midway through kind of working towards that, strangely, going to write my LSAT, noticed a poster that said, there was a last year of a special education program at UBC and just knew that that's what I should be doing. So I think special education was always fringe. At that point in the '80s was a fringe, a place of kind of understanding equity and fairness back in the '80s, before I think indigenous perspectives were really understood. And so that was where that was sort of the battleground, I guess I would say that I started my career in Burnaby, including children with special needs who had been at prior to that at segregated schools. And so from the very beginning of my teaching career, I was fighting the system. I represented children who teachers typically didn't know how to include or how to relate to. And so from the very beginning, I armored up pretty good. And so I came into education not believing that everybody becomes a teacher 'cause they love kids and not believing that everybody wants children to be successful. I think it was like a big bucket of cold water. And yet I think it prepared me to follow an inner compass and inner sense of what was right and wrong. And yeah, and 35 years later I'd say it's exactly the same like that inner sense of making decisions based on what's ethical, not even what's comfortable for me or even to avoid conflict or I think it's. I see now though that we're at a time in British Columbia anyways with a curriculum that really, our policies in BC support the kinds of things that really matter to me. So now it's activating imagination and creativity and agency and teachers and colleagues to step up and find beautiful ways to help every child rock their days. And feel like they matter that they're connected to community, that there are diverse ways of being smart and capable and yeah, so that's. - That's kind of me. I guess I also would say I have four sons. So I learned through them that you can play the game of education really well and it doesn't mean you're learning. Also that they need to be, my boys at least need to be really physical and engaging with their bodies as well as their minds. I don't think I understood that in the same way until I had my experiences with them and now that they're adults. Yeah, I guess I continue to learn from, so that's a big part of my journey as well. - Do you feel like at this moment in BC with the shifts in curriculum, it's feeling less like a battleground? - I would say no because the people don't practice it. My name is, I think lately it's been like, I wanna say to people when they, I've been so used to people saying that I'm transgressing, I'm always the transgressor, right? I'm always the odd one. And now I'm realizing when people say things I need to say, no, actually I would prefer to follow the BC curriculum if you wanna transgress, go for it, but that's not my thing. You know, if you just wanna do academic work or someone said that to me the other day, okay, but that's not the BC curriculum. So no, I'd say it's a battle for parents to, like people have been very conditioned by the public school system. - Yeah, it's a challenge. No, and I call it still a battle. It feels more like a battle than just educating or teaching people. It's things that you have to break down, right? So. - Well, you have that. - But the policies are there to support us. - Absolutely. - That's beautiful. - Yeah, luckily you have, one of my greatest allies in my battle in education, my writer, Dye, Tula, so Kila, I wanna throw it to you. What's your story? - Mm-hmm. So my story kind of intersects with some themes that Kim brought up, especially around Speckhead, kind of getting towards the end of high school. I had, it in my head that I wanted to be a special education teacher and having grown up with a sister who's blind, that really was informing kind of that decision. And so at the time I felt that I wanted to be a vision teacher and I didn't know what that meant. So when I finished my ed degree on Kim's suggestion and kind of push, she was like, you need to go and actually teach and not be in Vernon and get out. So I went 12 hours north to Port Saint John where I was able to really start seeing what it would mean to be a vision teacher. So I'm really thankful for that opportunity because I realized that as I grew in my practice that what I actually loved was working with students and with that inclusive lens and also that just inclusive experience, my entire life has I think been that. So what has provided me a different perspective around what educational spaces can look like and who should be in them and how people should be treated in them. So by going to Port Saint John, I was able to start teaching and also realizing that the I turn teacher for the blind was also not gonna enable me to be in front of kids every day and I didn't wanna be somebody just making plans that other people do. So I was able to begin my practice and realize some things about myself and what my practice meant. And then moved to Calgary where I was at for the last three years at CA working in a special education environment again as well there, building up my practice, especially around literacy and being able to be connected to really great mentorship at CA. And then now just this last year has been my first year at Milbae, moving back to home to BC and has really also Kim and I talk often about the beginning of the unraveling and the unlearning as well. So I feel like I'm very much kind of sitting in that space around, okay what do I think that I know and is that real? Yeah, it's not what is. So that kind of investigation is where I'm at right now. Personally, I know we've had this conversation in formerly a number of times but just to summarize it all now, looking back on your first half of a year at Milbae Nature School that's been your biggest unlearning thus far. There's been so much my biggest unlearning since being at Milbae. I don't know, I'm reminded of how often I'm reminded that we say that children all have unique talents and gifts and that's kind of like something that I think lives in the educational space but then to actually have the skill as an educator to provide spaces where that is actually true is actually very hard in practice. And so for me, I think that my practice and my pedagogy aren't actually very like as aligned as I would like them to be has been I think a big unlearning and how hard it is to actually develop skills in the area to provide environments for that to happen because it's very messy. And it's like you don't have all the answers and it really requires the leaning on of community in order to make that happen for children. And it's really humbling as well. - Absolutely. - And also I think kind of reveals the falsehood that any one person can be kind of it for everybody in fact, that's not true. - I know, but like I know when we say that and we joke about it, but it's like to actually recognize that and then lean on others from health is really hard. - And really fun too. - So before we go any further, I know a bit about it, but if for anyone who hasn't heard of it before, maybe I'll throw it to you Kim, how would you describe Milbae in nature school? - So Milbae in nature school, we like to call it Kashintal, which is the whole Communom word that was gifted to us by our elder residents to seal them. Kind of the December of our first year in 2018. He watched what we were doing and told us that the most important part of beginning a new school, which is what we were doing. It was to build community. And he said, just make that. your priority. Like, I'm basically underneath it, it was if you want to work with me, if you really want to practice indigenous pedagogy, if you really want to honor all community people that have lived on this land for 10,000 years, that's what you'll do. And so I think in that December when he gifted us that name, I felt a sense of like, we're on the right track and I think we continue to make that almost like that is the, that's our measuring stick. So I would say right now we're a school that invites kids from four years old. So, you know, kindergarten to, I think we have 12 year olds that are all just kids right now and we're starting launching this spring and middle school. So I imagine for some kids that'll stay with us from kindergarten to grade 12 and I imagine other kids will stay for a while and other kids will stay longer. You know, like I don't know. The nature part is a bit deceptive because we're on five acres of clear cut. So I think that's kind of cute. It was a decision by the school board trustees because this was a school that was not used for 10 years. So it was shut down. And then they were, they were going to reopen it and they wanted to do something different. So that, that's a cool that that that was a desire. But I would call it, they'll be natural school. So really what we are as a school that uses the outdoors because the outdoors is just a natural learning space for children and like Kayla was talking about, it kind of offers a different kind of experience. So we have inside time and we have outside time and that seems to meet more kids needs. Stensary needs, physical needs, facial needs, all sorts of needs. I call it natural too because it's a pedagogy of growing from the inside out at your own pace. Interestingly, that intersects a lot with indigenous pedagogy, I would say, whole-communium beliefs around children being speckum or flowers or plants and that every child is a different kind of plant, that gardening metaphor. And you know, I didn't know that when we started the school, but it's interesting how my past experiences and what I kind of brought to the table have really intersected with the things that I've been learning about whole-communium culture. So we have a beautiful amount of freedom and liberty to co-create a school in the way that we see fit for the children that are there. We have incredible support by our superintendent and our school district and the trustees. So I think I love that because at my stage of my career, that's, I have that freedom to imagine and create and make mistakes. And I think it creates a staff too of people that are willing to come undone and figure out, okay, now what? And we're learning to do it together and to really love each other in the process, which then overflows into the children. Right? So I think one of the things that you don't see at Mill Bay, but that's true about it. is that because I'm completely supported on the district has my back, then I can completely support the staff and have their back and then they can completely support the kids and have their back. So it's this beautiful continuum that I have an experience before in education. You know, so that doesn't feel like a battle. And actually, it goes like, I get to propanize I don't do, right? And that's why I call myself a head learner because I'm learning all the time and coming apart and unlearning and relearning and constantly. Yeah. Kayla, is there anything you want to add in terms of the description you've been constructing since September? I think just that something that I would add as well is that Mill Bay really is also a place that calls children and adults to actually be themselves and to fully show up as themselves as often how Kim and I talk about it and that the children are not coming to class compliant looking for the gold star. I mean, some are, but like we don't ask for that of them and we also don't like, I'm not going to ask for that to grow in kids either. So it also is a place that kind of calls children forth to explore and find out who they truly are and that there's no game, there's no prize at the end. Yeah. You said pedagogy from the inside out, Kim, can you say more about that? I think it fits. I don't know this. I randomly said this when the school first opened one day in a gathering we had and just said, here are the rules of our school. Be yourself, make mistakes, understand others, problem solve and build community. I said, the rest of the Marguide lines, those are rules and so that's what we all need to do and I don't know where those came from. I think they came from lots and lots of experience and but it's, I don't really know how else you could even develop the core competencies of the BC curriculum unless you're saying to children to be who you are in all your messiness and I actually think staff too, like in all your messiness in all your incompleteness, in all your beauty and strengths and we say we all have stinky bits and we all have sparkly bits all of us. So not one person has more stinky bits or more sparkly bits and interesting I think when you say that to humans I see that even as a principle, like when you say that to humans and they believe you the capacity to grow just goes through the roof. Like and the willingness to take risks and you have to take risks in order to grow and change, right? So that's how I understand that from the inside out. Yeah. And it's definitely, it's parallel to whole community teaching of honoring, right, who this person already is, that we're not forming them. They're something already and we just don't want to use the quest for developing literacy and numeracy skills which are important for sure but not shut down those other parts of them and the quest for developing those skills, right? And that's where I think what Kayla sings true, it's very messy because it's not it's not script, it's jazz, right? It's improvisational and what works one day does work the next day and that that just becomes the normal for the children too. And but also I think the the revealing of that to children, the showing and the modeling of that to children that that's actually how humans are, yeah, allows permission as well when the adults are also like coming unraveled and then not the that stay. Yeah. It's also that yeah, that modeling and showing that actually all humans experience all things and that's normal. Like the kid to try to convince us that I'm all stinky or that I'm all sparkly like that's also not true. Nobody is all done. Oh my gosh. No matter the narrative that they try to sell you. It's so hard. They're told that as a teacher, I've had the only story I have to try and empathize with in this situation is one of your past little collaborator of both of you, Marie Saskas we went to Nicaragua together for international travel studies and it was the first time I'd been in a space like that my entire educational career and came out very much like you where I didn't like the game. I was frustrated at game, but I still wanted to win it. I love how you said that. So I had like conditioned myself into this. I must be all sparkly otherwise I don't even know something really bad's going to happen. It's going to be horrible. And suddenly I'm in a place where I'm having culture shock, where I'm having heatstroke where I can hardly get my head straight where there's not a plan. And I had to like live into my stinky if you will publicly. That's Marie's love. I'm taking people into their sticky gets. Oh my I don't think I've ever cried publicly in front of so many people as I did on that trip. But it's fascinating how we even though like I came in like you and I'm like it's a battleground. Like I need to change education. I'm a change agent. I still was like but I need to sparkle. I cannot be sparkly. And that's been a big outlearning for me. I think just the pandemic has been a great learning space for me on that front because you just can't show up sparkly when you're literally going through social isolation and full on mental health breakdown like many of us were. So it's really interesting how you talk about that duality because I really reflect on it as a teacher. Something I've been dying to ask and I don't think Kyl and I had a chance to unpack this yet last year when she knew she was coming to you and I was losing her and I was going to be alone in Alberta. She was sending me job postings and I would just my soul would cry. And we were looking at the decolonizing lead position and I was like I don't think I have. I'd be the right person to take this up but the language was incredible and I just I don't think I've ever seen a job posting called decolonizing lead definitely not across Canada or any educational space. Kim or Kayla feel free to jump in. Tell us, tell us about that role and the kind of work this person would do in your space. - Well, it's really interesting. Like this is the first time I've been a principal, right? So I've never been administrator till I came to know they, and I was hired purposely because I wasn't conditioned in any way, right? So that was intentional by the people that hired me. What I learned really fast is there are no, the idea that you're hired at most contracts in education are seniority only isn't true. It's part of it, at least in the couch and valley, and I know this is true in other places. Part of it is also the philosophy of the school. It's how you're training your experience fits with the philosophy of the school. And so I'm now very confused why people don't have a philosophy of a school. Because once you have a philosophy and once you are working in that way, now someone who has, someone has to show that they actually fit in order to come. And if you don't, then you have to say a grade two teacher or people say, right, I just want a grade two teacher. And so when I started working with the union, I wrote those job descriptions and I thought, oh, there's no way I'm gonna be able to lose them. And I shared them with the union president here and she read them all and she said, these are great. Like if we want to get away from a factory model, this is like her quote. We want to get away from a factory model in education that we have to do this. - Yeah. So I started to imagine what is it that, what are the roles, like what do we need at our school? And so as time has kind of gone on, a one of them is a decolonizing lead. So we have learned through Tiselem and some work that we've done that we're moving from a triangle. And the kids talk about this, like someone so's pretty triangularily. Lucy said that today. - They're pretty triangularily. - Pretty. - So they're talked down. And we've actually, with our older kids, like there's a whole like workshop that you go through, led by indigenous elders, basically showing that you want to be the person at the topic, except the person at the top has no connection to all these other people. And, and hopefully, you're not a woman or disabled at all in the time. - Yeah. - Oh yeah, you can go. - So we're going from that triangle. So how we envision at our school, or the language or vocabulary understanding is from a triangle to a circle. So in a circle, there's all these different roles that children are in the middle. So children are centered in that. And then everything else is there to support their development. So as time has gone on, we recognize we need someone to take on that lead. So I've hired people for their sparkly bits, basically. So, I believe that teachers are not good at everything. Even elementary school teachers who think they're supposed to be, is not possible. And so you're really, really strong in something or under strong slash passionate about it. And so I want to hire people that way, right? With strong competencies, I think I would say now I would even rewrite for next year, like really strong core competencies or a willingness to admit, these are my areas of strength and this is where I need to grow in core competencies. But beyond that in terms of content, it's a lead role. So our literacy lead, we say, that's who we're following for literacy. Newmercy, that's who we're following. And decolonizing is the person that whose role it is to remind us that we're moving from this to this. And so is what we're going to do this or is it not? So an example would be a conversation, 'cause I say we have two teachers that kind of take on that lead, is some parents requesting to have a readathon. And so a lot of filtering through, okay, what does that mean? Like how do you do a readathon in a circle? And it's a different kind of conversation. - Right. - So yeah, so the lead positions are the people that kind of feel the responsibility. And we're in early stages of this and trying to figure out what it means, but to bring that forth. So for Kayla being that humanities, language, middle years person, she's figuring out now how do I bring that forward with another teacher who's been there longer and has his own ideas, right? So it's learning to respect, I think from what I understand like today, and it always changes, but that's kind of a circle, right? That everyone has a responsibility and a role, which also means that other people need to respect that. And not sort of, 'cause some people like to have their, their hand in lots of pots and think that they can influence things and it's sort of a sense of peacefulness that you don't have to worry about everything. I don't have to worry about everything. - Well, and it's rooted in trust as well that I trust others to take things up because they're passionate about it, because they also have some woofiness about them in that area. It's really, I think also rooted in trust of each other as staff, but also in thinking about children, the trust and the belief that each child has a unique gift to bring and our job is to want that, to grow that in others, to allow the space for them. - Including the adults, yeah. - A phrase you book say often that I've studied. It totally does. And a phrase that comes up through all of that constant negotiation of maintaining the circle, right? That power with and power within. A phrase you book says, take out, like to take it up, do we, who takes up the learning? And I'm curious if you can say more about that. - That's a sascusism. - Is it? That's a sascusism. That's a marinesism. Yeah. That would just take it out, mean to you. To me, when I ask a child to take something up, it means that you're taking responsibility for that learning and for that growing and that you are basically activating and acknowledging the agency that you have to go in the direction that you want to go and that really empowering the internal work to make change in the outside that things don't just happen, Kim and I've been talking even just tonight, like things don't just happen to us. And the realization that I do have agency would be I'm taking this up because I, you know, I see a problem, I see a solution that I have to offer. And so you do that. - And I think in taking it up for yourself, initially it's an independence, right? So you need to have that independent spirit to take it up. But then you realize I have to be interdependent. 'Cause this is what you were saying before about we have to work with each other. And interdependence to me is the ultimate. Like that's where you want everyone to grow to, right? Not independent. So you're dependent, then you're independent and then you're interdependent. And the more interdependent you are, the more success or productivity or whatever you wanna call it is, right? - It's like an ecosystem. I like the more diverse the ecosystem, the healthier all of the plants or animals are in that space. And so the more interdependent you are, is actually the more healthy outcome. - Yeah. - The more fully realized competency development is. - Yeah. (laughing) - It's also risk taking, right? When you say to someone, take it up, it's saying you take the risk. Don't tell me that you have this idea. - Like that's nice. - But also like manifesting that courage in others and for others as well. Because it's also like, I think courageous to take things up to risky. But also we were talking on our Smokwa clan today about like something that kids are learning in Smokwa and we're still thinking around it. Smokwa being like our middle-years program right now. But it's also like being okay with just trying. And maybe it doesn't even go anywhere. And that's also kind of the point as well. And there's something the kids are all most articulating but not quite around. Smokwa is also about like trying things and just like checking it out. If that's the goal is the taking it up. Not the use taking it up to actually do something. Yeah. - Exactly. This podcast is a proud member of the Teach Better Podcast Network. Better today, better tomorrow and the podcast to get you there. You can find out more at teachbetter.com/podcast. Now let's get back to the episode. - A narrative that plays out often in my life. And I'm sure it's played out in both of yours as people who shared between all three of us, we've taken up the call, the challenge, the learning, the inquiry, if you will, to disrupt these factory structures, of education, these colonized structures, of education. But to get to that interdependent place, I find there is like something really unique in the passion and the drive that comes from taking it up and saying, I am going to put on my armor and go into this battle with trying to convince, not even convince, I don't know if that's right word, influence, others to take that up with you. And I mean, either of you feel free to jump in. I'm curious how you've negotiated, 'cause I often get the critical feedback, my whole career, you know, too passionate, too much, to this, to that, it's the tone, it's, you know, and so how do we negotiate as change agents in the educational space taking up the call to reimagine education with passion? but still needing to find out interdependence. - That's really simple, not. You just have to come to know that with us. - Oh, shoot. (laughing) It was the answer. (laughing) You just go to the place where it's happening. (laughing) - Oh, I don't know. Yeah, because I don't know. I kind of think like it is about us gathering together and a bunch of us doing something together that's really powerful. - Yeah. - I just felt like in my past, I would do this good work myself, and it just never felt like it was getting anywhere, or gaining any traction. - Yeah. - But I think that, and Rod Allen, who was the superintendent of the couch of Valley, and was the deputy minister of education, like he kind of envisioned the school and kind of recruited me in a sense for that. I think he also sees that, like, you have to show it happening. Like, we have to, and he did provide the evidence. Yeah, he deliberately, like, didn't give us more money. Like, we didn't have, we had no library, we had no stuff, we had nothing, and he deliberately did that, because he said, if you're going to build community, that's how you build it. You say to the parents, we have a whole library of books basically donated. We have furniture basically donated. And that can be a criticism, like, new people coming. We'll say, we'll see that, like, they'll see it through critical lens and be like, that's not fair. But I do think we all, those of us who have been there from the beginning and really, and those of us who are new, who get it, can see the power of that, that none of us, including me, and I mean, I wrote the field guide, and I had all these ideas for it, but none of us can do this by ourselves. There's no, like, today we had something happen around a fire outside, and, and, and, and Kalo and I were just commenting before we went on, on the air with you that you couldn't make that happen. That's everyone around there deciding that's what they want to be doing, right? So I don't, I think it's like you've got to gather with some sort of force of people. Always. And, and being on your own, I think it, it makes you stronger though, like, I think my work in Vernon for 17 years bashing my head against a brick wall, which is what it felt like, and which it, what it was, totally prepared me though. It made me so internally strong that then I could hold the course. I can hold the course on days when there can be a biased words, comfort, or a biased words, something being tidier. And I just know, no, no, no, no. Like, and there's no, it's not even tricky. Like, it's not tricky for me. And I'm fine with taking that up and that authority. I don't, I save it only for those moments where I know the trajectory is going to be a problem, not tomorrow or even a year from now, but we want to create something that's sustainable forever. And that, that takes a lot of teamwork. And, and, and then rubbing up against each other, and I think loving each other, like getting to know each other, and caring for each other, like there's just so much to it that you can't do an isolation, or even with one or two people. And I don't think anymore. After this experience. Yeah, I'm thinking too about how, I mean, I think to add a little bit more of context as well, it would be important to share, like Kim's known me, like since I was 10, has taught my, my both of my siblings, and then also later on, a cousin of mine. And so, because of that, and then our lives we've been talking about have kind of cycled back, and we've found ourselves kind of rewoven together at different, like, important times. And so, kind of beginning our relationship as me as the student, and then kind of reconnecting with when I was doing my Ed program, Kim and Murray were, were connected to UBCO. And then, you know, that leading me to go to Forst St. John, and then a year ago, finding that we were moving from Calgary and being able to come back. So, with that comes a level of my trust in Kim that I've never experienced with somebody connected to work before, especially somebody who is like your boss. And so, for me, a key is also, like, trust, which I feel like I have a lot of, very quickly, maybe more so than somebody else who would be new. And so, that allows more interdependence more quickly. The trust is, as I'm reflecting, really important in that as well, that especially on those, like, getting messy, trying things, making mistakes, circling back, having reflective conversations, that those are all necessary in order to grow and to be a better educator and really to help my practice more aligned with what my beliefs are. That makes me think about something I'm really grappling with right now, which is the role of relationship in work spaces. But there always is a sense when you're still living in the triangle that it always feels a bit strategic, right? Like, it just, it's like a poison transition always, right? And I feel like we, but listening to you two talk and even just seeing your body language, the way you interact, like, it's just different, you know? You can tell when it's in a space that isn't hierarchical. Yeah, and I would say, like, I think it has a lot to do with love, like, you know, what Bell Hooks talks about love, or like, it's not love, like, romantic love, like capitalism, like, they're colonized love is weird, right? It's like, romantic, it's sexualized and erotic. Yeah, yeah. And for sure, there's a place for that in the world, but I think in terms of leadership, like, I would say that my ability to love people, even that I don't agree with, or that I'm struggling with, is probably my best asset. And I have study tons and I'm smart and I know things, and that's not what matters. It matters that someone feels safe to tell me that something's happening in their life, and they may need a bit of grace. And then I can step in and support, and I don't know, it's not a quality, I think that's looked for in leadership in schools, and I think it's probably, and because I think it's a funny tension, because it's not soft, it's not love that's, like, permissive, and you can do whatever you want. It's a, it's a wooing of people and an invitation into their life, so that then you can act, oh, I think it's the same with children, actually. Then you can actually make, you can actually then say some hard things. Yeah. And so that, you know, an example I can think of, was when Kayla first came, I hope you're okay with me telling this story. First came, and, you know, I had some kids that were really tricky, and when you tell kids to be themselves, they can be very, they can appear very disrespectful, and because they're learning about boundaries, and they need a lot of feedback. And so we had a hard conversation in her clan, and I think she was, I don't know what she was imagining, but if I was her, I would have imagined that I would come in and sort of support her, because that's, I'm her person who's supporting her, right, amongst the kids. And really, I ended up calling her, "Odon" stuff. And I think in a loving way that allowed her to be vulnerable and just cry, which allowed the kids to then get to know her better. Because I know that's true, right? Like, 'cause I'm older than her, and I've had more experiences, but, and I learned that through Murray, I think, like Murray's sharing some really hard, his own personal hard stories with students, made them all feel safer, right? So I know that's a truth, but you have to, you have to earn that. You have to earn that. Like, you have to be given permission by someone to be like that in their presence, I think, right? Like, I think that, and I've learned that also through Tuseelum, that he's given me permission to sort of speak on his behalf and hold things up in a certain way. After a lot, though, of time together, and him really loving me, right? And feeling that love that I can take a risk, because if I mess up, he will tell me in a way that, that won't diminish me or scare me. And I think, yeah, I think there's a lot to be learned from a pedagogy of love. And it has to be in a decolonizing space, I agree. But people want to be good and work hard. And I feel like, really, I don't, even people that, you know, I've worked with who I've given that grace, and then they leave, because they can't do it. But they've made that decision, like, I can't do this. I can't step up in these ways. And that, that's really honest, too, right? But it's not, it's not everyone's ready for that kind of, that work. But I think the idea that you can work in spaces with children, where you're asking them to take chances and risk things, and we're, you know, like, share their identity and share their dreams with you. And then we don't, we have, you know, boundaries around our personal and our professional identity. Like, I, I don't, I think that's fair in other environments and other spaces. But I don't think that you can do that in education. Not if you really, if you really want to create an ecosystem, and you really want, I just see massive fruit. I don't know how exactly I'd write it down. But when I stand and watch children, little children, making decisions to stay in the world. stop talking or to watch or to participate in ways that are, I wouldn't even expect a vital to do that. And they are. So it does stop you in your tracks and it has a life of its own and a synergy. I think that it's hard to explain if you don't experience it. And I do think it's coming from lots of different things, but really this deep sense of like you love me, you want the best for me. I believe you. Right? And when you're upset with me, I always remind kids I love you. Yeah. And you're driving me crazy. Yeah. We got to figure this out, but I'm always reassuring them. And nobody, even older kids don't look at me like that's weird. There is this like, this breathing out like, oh, right, right, right. It's okay. Yeah. My own colonization I feel like is living through the constant narrative that I've been told out loud and also now I just repeat in my head all the time of how do I show up tomorrow and be more contained? How do I make sure I'm more professional? How do I withhold those thoughts? How do I separate work in life? How do I get better at keeping it to separate worlds? Like it's this constant conditioning of ourselves. Right? But we know that like with with kids, I feel like there is there is just something about children that is beautiful that that naturally starts to pull it out of people. But it's fascinating, like I've moved out of the classroom for the past few years and I'm spending more time in the adult space. Man, is there a need for love and humanity and more of the stinky bit? It reminds me of something that we were talking about earlier too around that compartmentalization of this box holds, my personal identity and experiences and this box holds my professional and that, you know, if only it just worked harder to keep them separate than like my problems would go as all. Yeah. Yeah. And that the realization and really maybe I don't know understanding, I think we know like cognitively it makes sense but like to understand it emotionally that the more intertwined, the more complex the ecosystem, the more that those boxes actually interweave with each other, the more love would come out, I think. Yeah. And we know this from assessment, right? We do, like we spent a learning journey together, like trying to fight the binary bias that there is not just a right and a wrong, there's such a spectrum of complexity that only the person living it is really positioned to explain and to express and to live. And yet we still like that is one that we will not challenge, right? Like there's work and there's life and there's separate and work life balance and blah, blah, blah. Like we just will not look at that part of our life and question it there. Yeah. And that's not indigenous at all. So you think like people, at least for me here, how can you know people who have lived on this land for 10,000 years and were able to figure out how to live in these ways, right? And for the past 150, 200 years, this idea of compartmentalization, I think as one aspect of colonial practice, like has made people unwell. It's not sustainable. Right. And of course it wants to keep perpetuating itself, right? So I'm really grateful to be somewhere where I'm seen as being wise. That's how my boss sees me as a wise person, right? So not a frivolous person or someone who supports soft skills or all those kinds of throw away lines, which I've experienced elsewhere. Like your wise that you're doing this and the work that's happening is beautiful work. That's what I get told. I know. So it's possible. It's possible, right? That's what I love. We're showing it's possible. Yeah. Something I'd love to learn more about from both of you is how you disrupt the triangle when it comes to assessment. Because I feel like when we look at our education, our schooling system, I should say, one of the most hierarchical things baked into it is how we do assessment and grading and reporting. How have you been working to disrupt that? I think that I don't really know the answer. Because I just don't, yeah, I guess I don't buy the triangle, so with this question. Yeah. I mean, something that I'd really loved just getting to think about more, especially coming away from CA, having done a lot of assessment work with you, is being able to have that right in the back of my head all the time, like fresh to the compared to things that I'm trying out and checking like is this real, is this good practice? So I would say one of the biggest new practices that I've been learning about is this idea that the educator is the observer and that it is my job to have different lenses through which to see growth and learning at children. And that my job to do is with those lenses are, sorry, it's free longs, that's so juicy, that's interesting. Well, I feel like one of the biggest switches is Sharon and Kim talked about this earlier too, but this idea that like, it's my job to see academic skills in students, sure, that's one third of the curriculum, but also the development of my ability to see core competency development in kids, and also to understand that the development of those skills and children also look different in each child, and that it's my job to mine in to look for those things, and also to ask kids about that. And so it's very conversational and very, yeah, observational as well. So part of my practice has been getting better at communicating to families. This is the situation that I saw. These are the conditions that I was able to create, and this is what happened in your child. This is what I was able to see. And so, that practice is very rude and ratio, right? So, that's where that, some of that stuff comes from. Sorry, interrupting. No, it's all good. So we have this practice at our school of writing, learning stories as a tool to share with families about the work that their children are doing when they're with us. And so that learning story is really about sharing the environment under which, the conditions under which that learning happened, and then connecting it into content, core competency, big ideas that we see kind of unearthed in those spaces. And so it's also really a communication tool and communication practice as well to try to really break down the background and the baggage of like traditional schooling that most of our parents experience themselves. To try and kind of reveal and show, give evidence of another way. And then this month as well, my teaching partner and I are getting ready for report cards. Our school is getting ready for report cards. And so the process that we're taking up with the kids is we started today with a group brainstorm around what have we been up to? What have we actually done in September? And so allowing students space to be reminded of all of the things that we've done. And then Brian and I will each interview each of our kids and ask them basically three questions around how do you how have you seen yourself developing in your core competencies? How have you seen yourself developing in your literacy? And like where would you like more support? And also the same question for numeracy. And then the second piece of that is a response to what the children say so that their voice is really literally showing up in that report. And then it's just in conversational response to and then paired with that is also our assessment of their development in content and curriculum on a five point continuum as well. And really a growth continuum too. Yeah. And I think that a hack is that like we have basically in their I don't know what I haven't learned in a BC report card in so long, but in their report card it will just say like you need subject like see Mill Bay report card. And then we'll have this entire like beautiful conversation really documented with each child of their learning at our school. And it's so much more context giving and provide so much more depth. Are you adhering to the BC ed proficiency scale? Because I heard it went we just call it a growth continuum and you've rewritten it in your own language, your own context. Because proficiency just kids we did it the very first report card and kids are like I 24 proficiency somebody did you have proficiency? It was like we don't know. We just changed it into more nuanced growth language. And then now that's that's just how it is. The norm the normal right that is there a part of you Kayla as you're living in this new reality that's like do we need the comparative continuum? You know we've known and saying or can it just be the learning story? I think that the learning story supports the learning of like the parents and the adults in our space around the work that we do. And I think it's important. I think that other piece is important too, but what is damaging to children and their growth and learning is is that comparison of like that idea that like there's a beginning and that there's an end and that what matters is getting to the other end. When really I think that the work is to demonstrate that we all have strengths in our village and in our circle and that we also all have things that we will probably always need support in for our entire lives. Like those things about us likely we can't just like work our way out of necessarily. It's not like if I only just tried harder. I would be better at math. That's like not how it works. And that I would say the reason why at first when you asked the question I was kind of like I don't know. I think it's because I see assessment now is witnessing. So it's a whole comming in principle, right? You're witnessing people's lives. And I think it's okay to say that you are like exceeding what we would expect for someone around your age in this area because our community needs people who can really embrace like these are gifts and talents and strengths I have. It reveals to them in the context of it's not a competition. We're ungraded. So no one even knows like who's who and what there's for kids like you and I we would be so frustrated because there's no winner because you don't even know who we're competing against. Like it's really that I would say ungrading is the more powerful thing. Yeah. Not putting kids in the same year. And ungrading not like we don't get percentage, which is also true, but ungrading as in you are grouped by how far your development is or not in for a commute. You're not grouped by age and therefore grade. Yeah. In my clan, in my clan, we have students, I have students who are eight, pretty much to 12, but who are competence. They're peers who is constantly peers. Yeah. I'd say they're peers. Just like you guys and me, right? Like we're not on with and it could be your mother, but that's a relevant outside of school. And I've seen it at our school just by doing that. It's a huge, there's no comparison because you don't even know who I we do like foundational skills assessment FSAs. And I call all the kids who were born this year in 2011. And they're all like no, no, no, that's not even fair. Like they can see how ridiculous it is and how these kids are so much more developed, but we've placed them in places where they're challenged and we place them in places they're challenged and them and you know, so they don't even know. So I'd say that it's a witnessing so that that learning stories and reports are opportunities to witness to parents and kids who their child, who their children are. And and in the context of a community, right? Which is different than a family. Like in the context of this community, this is who they are. And that's what parents actually really, really love. They love our learning stories. They love to hear even parents who want competition and and are having more trouble getting rid of that. I think they still like lap it up when you're telling them this is what happened. And this is what we saw. And they the witnessing pieces. I think and we also honor a lot at our school. So every Friday we have birthday honoring and the teacher stands up on the stage and honors a child and talks about them if they have their birthday in the prior week and every single human it just laps it up. So you can see how it's not so much assessment so we can get kids into programs outside of the school, like post-secondary, prepare them for that somehow. It's more that all of this feedback helps them know themselves. Right. And know in community who they are and what what gifts do I bring to the world and and how do what do I do with this and and and how do I develop these things. So yeah, I I think there's our huge need for that in humans. It's hard to know that outside of getting feedback and the feedbacks coming from someone and I go back to love that they feel like loves them. Right. And not is looking to criticize them. I think it also connects to the idea that we're actively trying to challenge the perspective and the narrative that like all children age 10 should be here. Yeah, because that's not true. And also acknowledges and provides space for kids to grow in those areas where they're not there when they're 10. But like I don't care if you get there when you're 12. Cool. Welcome. Join us. That can be really a powerful permission giving for kids as well. Well, it's the true purpose and beauty of assessment when we talk about it at its root, which is the idea of like to sit beside and this idea that we use information we witness so that we can design and facilitate learning spaces that are going to ensure that the people in those spaces actually learn. Right. Like that's the actual point. The hard part in the school system the way it is when people are grouped in each batch is even if you gather that information, there's very little you can do about it a lot of the times. You're like, well, differentiate in the classroom that you're creating a narrative for the students that it's like, oh, these are the better and these are the worse and we're in the same way. It's so. And if only you could all be here right now. Right. So we're going to come up with this myth of average and just kind of teach to the middle and all the things teachers do to try and not really not to not harm kids is what they're doing. It's coming from a good place. But then it ends up missing pretty much everybody. Well, and I think the way we've organized in terms of like every spring we spend probably six hours discussing every child and and we can set up you know that they're eating the are they're writing or their numeracy maybe at a higher level that their core competencies is mostly around core competencies. They interestingly at the end of the day, that's where you'll have a child working with older children and maybe they can't read it that but they can work on that core competencies you don't work at. You're provided an environment where they can will you take risks and you make mistakes and you play like it's a it's a different kind of development. Yeah. It's not a cognitive a purely cognitive kind of development like a memorizing how to do something. It's it's a growing internal it's back to that you know inside out. Yeah. And so we spend a lot of time having those discussions and that's just a given now like I don't think anyone would ever argue that it would be easier if we've grouped kids assert like by their ages. We'd actually all laugh if someone came in and said we should do that. We'd be like what would that be for? Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's we've we've created we've had the freedom right to create some of these these things and I think I've just learned from my own experience that some of these things are blockers and they're not policy. Nowhere in the school act in British Columbia or in the curriculum does it say you need to do that and yet we still just keep doing it. Because it's what we know. It's easy sufficient. Yeah. Yeah. Some really good language around um around that that I've learned since coming to an old band talk about with Kim often is like okay so is that policy or is that your practice and to use that to investigate things that you have questions about is I as has been really helpful and you know my experience is also being at the louder and the more that something has said the more likely it's actually that's practice. I've never heard you say that before Kayla. Yeah. It's like the best like offensive in my head. But but really though that our policies and I think NBC but also in Alberta I'm reminded of when we were doing a lot of our assessment working we had to go back into the curriculum. One of our big takeaways as RSC 18 was like there's actually a lot of permission here. Like social studies that it's cool is actually about like identity development but it's not interpreted that way um it's funny widely. So there's actually a lot more permission because policy says that not you know but practices maybe not matching up and so I don't know I think something that would be helpful for people listening is a question a way to interrogate that is so is that policy or is that practice. Like where is the backup for that? To actually just wonder and not assume that you know but actually wonder like yeah and hardly anything is policy. Yeah it's true. Hardly anything. If it is in policy it's usually written in such vague nebulous language that it's kind of like not really saying anything if you can you mind down for it. Yeah you can interpret it. There's that room for interpretation and always. Oh my god. Pedagogy is completely up for grabs. Yeah completely. It's everything. It's everything. Okay we're nearing the end of our time together. There's so many more things I want to explore. I feel like we're going to need a part two. That brings us to the end of part one of my conversation with Kim and Kayla and I would like to invite you to visit the educrushpa.com website because there are a couple resources I'd love to share with you first is a link to the Milbae Nature School website and second is a more specific link which will take you to the page about how they witness and communicate student learning in that school. I know like me a lot of you are very curious right now about how we reimagine assessment and more specifically reporting of student learning and when Kayla first shared with me how she was communicating student learning at the end of a semester I was floored. What you're going to see on this page is something that looks a lot more like a very beautiful and artsy newsletter. And in it are embedded a number of links that have student voice and videos sharing their own learning journey that they've embarked on since the beginning of the year. It is beautiful, it is powerful. And for me, it's at the heart of what the vision is when we get all fired up about ungrading or going great less. So I would love to welcome you to take a look at the learning stories on that page and hopefully also find some inspiration like I did. Now as we head into the week ahead, as always, I would like to leave you with a challenge that is inspired not only by my conversation with Kayla and Kim, but also by the deeper learning conference at High Tech High that I just returned from and that conference had a clear theme woven through all three days in that who we learn with is just as important if not more so than what it is we learn that we make sense of ourselves through our relationships with those around us. And something they did at the very closing of that conference that really brought this point home is invited us to write a postcard to one of those people who had had a profound impact on our lives, communicating what it is that they taught us and how we are now paying it forward by giving back with that learning in mind. So I'm going to ask you to not necessarily write a postcard but to at least reflect and then you can tweet out you could write a postcard if you're really feeling bold to this person, but I want you to answer three questions. The first question is who is someone who has been a profound educator in your life and that person doesn't necessarily have to be in a formal teaching position in a school just like my relationships with Kayla and Kim. So figure out who that person is and then ask yourself what is it that they taught me? It might be one profound learning, it might be multiple. For me, Kayla and Kim taught me that we can move through uncertainty when we can't control the outcome when we lean on each other and we rely on our deep love and relationships with each other. And lastly, I want you then to bring it back to yourself and ask with that learning in mind how are you giving back? What is it that you are doing with what you have learned? For me, a big part of what I learned from knowing Kayla and Kim is led me to create this podcast, a place where I am building connections with all types of people to remind myself and others through the sharing of these conversations that we are not alone, that all of us that are trying to reimagine schools and think differently about learning are in this together and we are in a community that can lean on each other when things seem dark and uncertain. So I'm going to tweet this out so you remember those three questions, who is someone you have learned from? What did they teach you? And what have you done with that learning? Thank you once again for listening to the EduCresh podcast. My name is Natalie Vardabaso. Shout out to our sponsors, headwater learning solutions for doing dope things specifically in the space of indigenizing education and take care of yourself, be kind, be well and continue to crush it. If you are loving this content, if it's affirming what you do in your practice or nudging you to think in different ways, we would love it if you would share it with someone else that you think also needs to hear it. It could be a colleague, a friend, your class, heck you could even tweet about it or put it on social media if you think everyone in your community could benefit from this content, but Word of mouth goes a long ways to helping us build the community to support one another in this work. So help us get the word out and thank you so much for listening.