#415 - “There Were 23 of Us” Area 51 Officer Finally Comes Clean | TD Barnes

I want to go through the whole thing in like a linear fashion today to how this all started for you and to everything you saw along the way. But for people that aren't aware, just high level, you were an engineer with a top secret and a Q level clearance working on special projects at Area 51 and for NASA during the high of the space race. Actually it was for the CIA. For the CIA. With NASA before I was Area 51. At NASA, before you were there for tour. Okay. So how did this all start? First of all, how did you get into NASA? What were you doing for NASA? I was on the X-15 tracking station, 45 miles from Area 51. And we were tracking X-15, X-B-70 bomber. The lifting bodies that became the space shuttle, the lunar landing vehicle that landed on the moon. We were doing all those projects and I was hyper sonic flight support specialist. I had experience in the Army, I was surface air missile guy in the Army in tail before that and I had experience tracking high speed vehicles and they brought me to NASA to track the X-15, which was a motor seven aircraft. The X-15 is what it was called. And you were doing tests with the lunar module for Apollo 11? Yeah. I got to do the Apollo 1 capsule. Actually, this is actually a lift NASA. I was at the flight Dynamics Laboratory for the CIA. We were getting our hand on the MiG-21 that was going to fly at Area 51 and we were building a black box so that we could evaluate it. So they sent me to the fly Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Patterson to develop the black box, you might say, for the testing of the MiGs and they were testing the Apollo 1 spacecraft so in the laboratory that I was in, they had a sample, they had to do the vibration tests. They had to do the vibration, they had to vibrate in the decons out of it 24 hours a day. Then they had a big ol' mercury oven that they'd put it in and varied the temperatures. You could run up to 5,000 degrees and head back down. So they evaluated the capsule itself, you know, 5-inch of wish fan, vibration in the heat, that sort of thing. And that's the same one that ended up burning up on the Cape and killing three of the astronauts. Is that the one with Gus Grissom? Yes. Wow. But they were testing it at Wright Patterson while I was there for another purpose. Yeah. What was the story on how that fire started again? It was an oxygenation, it used pure oxygen as a spark, united it, and so it took. Yeah. One of the crazy things I actually had Charlie Duke on the podcast a couple months ago and I was asking him all about the radiation stuff, you know, because that's one of the big questions now with getting back to the moon outside of like Earth orbit is going through the Van Allen belts or whatever. And I was asking him, I was like, what kind of testing did you have to do, like how much protection did you guys have? And he's like, no, we never really talked about it. You know, that's like one of the big things that the the lunar, the moon conspiracy people like to poo-poo it because of the radiation balance, you know. Well, we went through some of that even there in Nevada. I was not participant through this, but we actually developed a nuclear powered bomber. And yeah, and the, you know, the shieldings for the pilot was prohibitive. And then when we built the A-12, which I was part of, we were doing stealth, it was our first stealth plane and we were experimenting with the whole kind of procedure to confuse the enemy aircraft radar. And we tried iron guns. And for them, you had to have shielding for the pilot. And even though they would have worked on guns, you know, we had an A-12 plane, this is the A-12 for the listeners, you don't know, that was a CIA version that later became the SR-71. Oh, the blackbird. Okay. The blackbird. But we used an iron gun. We tried all sorts of things as we were developing stealth on it. But the weight of the protection for the pilot made it ineffective because weight was our biggest enemy. Mm-hmm. And what did they use lead? Well, they have to use-- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was lead. Mm-hmm. So it did not work out. Yeah. That's very interesting, you know, how those astronauts didn't really have to train much for that kind of stuff, you know. Because it's-- from what I understand, those Van Allen radiation belts are extremely dangerous because of all that radiation. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Okay. So from the point you were doing that work at NASA and then you went to Wright Patterson, you were doing some testing there. What specifically were you doing at Wright Pat again? I was a CIA Special Project. CIA Special Project. How much of the stuff that you did was like, you can't-- you still have to keep locked in your mind and you can't talk about, like how much can you talk about? Almost all of it. Yeah. In 2013. Actually, 2009, the CIA flew me and some of the pilots back to Langley. And that's when they declassified, which were tiller wise, where we had worked and what we did back in the 1960s. That's when my wife even learned about the '80s and '61. I'd go on a plane Monday morning, disappeared, come home Friday night, she had no idea. She had no clue. No clue. Where were you flying from? Los Vegas. Los Vegas. Is this where Obama came out and said Area 51 was real, was that 2009 when it was declassified? I don't know. I don't remember. See if Obama-- It probably was, Patrol. That's when they brought us back to Langley and brought us to wise with us and it was a big deal. And we got to meet the directors and all that sort of thing. And then I continued going back to Langley up into COVID for a different purpose or more oral history. I love the CIA pin you have there, by the way. Yeah, not a lot of people recognize that. But you came in wearing the hat. They kept me supplied with goodies like that. I'd come back about every three months and we would have reunions in Los Vegas, the guys that worked out Area 51 as a president of association. On the CIA, I always sent people to attend our reunions just to listen to us, work stories at our hours. Wow. And then bring the store. I actually set up the CIA store and there's our-- Yep. They have a gift shop there. Gift shop. Yep. Everybody be wearing caps like I'm wearing. Okay. So, Obama's first public acknowledgement of Area 51 wasn't until December 2013. That was when-- that was the official declassification. Oh. The official one. Yeah. So they brought you in before that? Yeah. Well, what they did was dedicate the plane, they put one of the planes up on a pedestal at CIA headquarters. Yeah. And that was the event. That's when Michael Hayden was director and they brought us back for the dedication of the plane. Oh. So, this was planned all this. So when Obama said this in 2013, it was prepped. Yes. You guys had been working behind the scenes to get all this information to them. Yeah. I give you a story. We turned-- the CIA turned over-- Area 51. We've been operating for over 20 years, knowing you about it. And 1979, we turned it over to Air Force, and we restored all the records we had at CIA at Norton Air Force Base. And 25 to 30 years later, when CIA got ready to start to declassify this stuff, Norton had lost all the records. So the historians called me and they said, TV, we've got a problem. We don't know what the hell you guys did. So what we did is they encouraged me to create a website, which we did. We had over-pilot, over-engineers, contractors, everyone, write up stories about what they did at Area 51. And that's how the CIA started reconstructing what we did out there, because back then it's more mentalized that no-- we didn't talk to each other. It was just that classified. And then the CIA would have a document-- you know, they got a lot of documents that generated it lately, but they wouldn't know what it meant to be a project and stand with a project and name or something. They wouldn't know what the project was. So the fact that it's a made, I put it on the website and draw comments from people that worked on that particular project. And that's how the CIA would learn what that project was all about. So walk me through the process of how you got recruited to go to Area 51. I was quite interesting. My route to Area 51 is different than anyone else. I was in the Army at Fort Bliss, Texas. I'd been just about every missile school and radar school they had. And I did over two and a half years of nothing but school or one college night and one school during the day, one missile had each another. And they gained a reputation from us after we were shooting hundreds of those flames out at White Sands, shooting hundreds of missiles. Yeah. Air defense missiles. Okay. Started out with the Nike H-Age, Nike Hercules, and it was a halt missile. What year are we talking here? We're talking about '59, '69, '69, '69. And '69, they were getting ready to build the H-12 spy plane out of Area 51. to fly at 8.51 and they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, in Turkey that the picked up a reflection down in the Soviet Union that they had a new radar called the Tolkien. And they need to know if this Tolkien radar would be able to track this new plane that they get ready to build the Blackbirds. And this was in 1960 before the Cuban Missed Crisis, the Russians had already moved in Cuba. They had moved in all sorts of missiles and heavy, they moved in a Tolkien radar, which made the CIA very happy talking radar, talking to T.A. Talking. Yeah, talking to T.A. Okay. So they moved one into Cuba, which made it a lot easier for them to probe, you know, see what it should do. So we, they're in project palladium, but it's a project name of it. Project palladium. They were flying to Ghostplane, C97, loaded with electronics, and they flying to Cuba. And they get that plane to turn on its radar, I mean, the Soviets turned on the radar. So I got the project of remote control plane. No, no, this was C97, this loaded with the, I got flying to the mission, because my reputation in the army was missiles and radar. They recruited me to help evaluate the Tolkien radar. Whoa, look at that thing. Yeah, that's what we saw, that's for electronics. So we flew out of Bigs Air Force Base next door to Fort Bliss for Obestation, and in Ghostplane we had the CIA people in the NSA, and we don't know who else in there, but they're trying to tie people. But we flew towards Cuba, made them turn on that radar, they shared the death of us, Cubans were in the Russians were, once they turned it on, then we started probing it, sprucing it with all type of signals, making them think it was coming, going, ten planes, one plane, whatever we wanted. But the object was, off the coast of Cuba, we had a submarine that released a bunch of balloons with all different size and shaped spears on it into there. And what the object was to see what was the smallest spear that radar would be able to detect. That's what we didn't see the sensitivity of it. So that's what we were collecting the data, but actually the submarine and the balloons was what the target was. Meanwhile they would launch the MiG-15s and get actress out of homestead Air Force Base here in Florida, then launch the F-100s to get between the MiGs and us, and we would get what we wanted and hauled back to Fort Bliss and Fort Bliss, big Air Force Base. Oh, wow. Anyway, that's how I got involved with the CIA. That's my first encounter, rather than an army, okay. Launch the reshore, I stayed an army, end up deploying the first combat missile you'd ever deployed when putting up the Iron Curtain. And they sent one battalion to Key West, Florida, because the missile crisis was, right. And they sent my battalion to Germany, West Germany, on the check border to monitor the Soviets kind of cross the check border. So anyway, I was there, the CIA showed up on my door, they needed me again. And I ended up on the state 18 months in Germany, when I was supposed to say 36 months, they had my family with me. And they ended back up and ended up back in the states. What were you aware of the declassified project or Operation North Woods? No. No. Did you read it after it came out? No, I'm not familiar with it. So Operation North Woods, I believe, included in that was, and I believe this was under Helms. I remember correctly Richard Helms. One of the things in that project was a plan to fly a remote controlled airplane over Cuba. So Cuba would shoot them out of the sky and we would have a pretext to invade Cuba. And also in there was this crazy thing that I only learned about recently, which was to use laser beams or some sort of like projection technology to project like a giant 3D Jesus Christ, over Cuba, over Havana, to tell them to rebel against their government. Have you heard of that? No. It was Limitser. He was a general. He was not the head of the CIA. Helms was the head of the CIA there, okay. But okay. So you're saying Limitser was developed it. He developed that specific project or that was Mongoose. Yeah, I'm for me with Limitser, the general. Right. Okay, there you go. If you go down it says North Woods, yeah, the look up the CIA, the CIA Jesus over Havana thing. That one's crazy. Okay. Well, the operation of Mongoose. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mongoose is different, right? Mongoose is. Yeah. That was the Bay of Pigs. That was the Bay of Pigs, right? Yeah. Exactly. But North Woods was wild. It was a very, like, very sinister type of project to do that. I don't doubt it. Deceptive, you know, like, very deceptive and using technology to project fake things in the sky like a Jesus type thing that would make sounds and stuff. If a business doesn't answer my phone call or I get a busy signal, I'm moving on. And you don't want that happening with your business, which is why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q-U-O. The business phone system that was built, so you never miss a call. Quo keeps all your calls, text, and voice mails in one place. So you and your team can see the full conversation and respond very quickly. So you can keep your existing number, add teammates as you grow, and set up everything in minutes without an IT department. Their built-in AI agent can even handle after hours calls, answer questions, and book appointments while your team is offline. Quo also connects with tools like HubSpot, Zapier, and Claude. So your information isn't scattered across five different systems. Quo was the number one rated business phone system on G2, and it's happily rated by over 90,000 customers. Money is on the line, so always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com/danny. That's q-u-o.com/da-n-y. We made over, uh, supposed to 600 attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro. I mean, here's what our target is, the resilient SOB. Yeah. Yeah. We had the acoustic cat. You've probably heard that story. I want to see what's going to spy on their Cubans. So they rigged this cat with, uh, they put an antenna on his tail and implanted a receiver. The training were, and where he would go closest to me guys, talking in the park and over, you know, marked their conversations. They worked on this cat and got him all ready, turned him loose, attached the cat, running over him, killed him. That's one of our famous, uh, that's in our, uh, our little list of Shelton's that, uh, that's why, uh, that's story wide now. Well, you know, I'm, uh, I'm familiar with our mutual friend, Annie Jacobson, did a whole book on, uh, the defense advanced research projects agency, DARPA, yeah, who, uh, worked on spy birds, like birds that are, that are remote control that are designed to spy and listen to stuff. Oh, well, well, I was there if it's one in, in 1958, we did a project outline. It was actually a bird. It was, it was powered by a, um, power, uh, uh, uh, chainsaw motor, whoa. It should, if you fly a thousand miles, taken photographs and up to a, you, you two plane or a satellite, chainsaw motor, chainsaw motor, it, it's just like a bird. I think outline is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, that's bonkers project alkaline. Yeah, wait. And that's it. That's 1968. Yeah. So what drives me crazy, it keeps me up at night is reading that kind of stuff and imagining what they're doing in 2026, you know, you can only imagine, because we didn't have computers in. Right. Exactly. Because you know, I went through a transition, well, as a NASA, uh, we started transitioning from electron tubes to transistors and, and converting to the metric system. Everything was changing at the time. We just jitten into, well, Chuck Gayer had, had been not the only sense he broke the sound barrier where we're getting into a mocked free flight, which is a totally new ball game. You know, we had to invent everything through the plane, you get up to 2200 degrees. Yeah. It feels like you have 600 degrees when she was 600. So everything had to be an invented, and we, and we use titanium for first time. Right. And now then she's thinking about that, our titanium was processed there, where I live now in Henderson, Nevada, and, uh, pretty inferior with having all the problems with it. So we end up getting our titanium to build the black birds out of Russia through a third party. So we built the five planes to spot Spinal Russia using Russian titanium. That's hilarious. Yeah. Okay. So back to Area 51. So how did you actually get what was the process like when they actually recruited you? Did they have to interview you who was there any specific like what were the specifics about you? Well, they picked you. Okay, long off the NASA, they had what they called seven sisters. That was six air defense radar sites in the region and my side only 45 miles away. Air time, the fluid plane out of Area 51 is of course the top secret. The FAA would notify the airport, regional airports, there could be something flying they don't say anything. Air defense command would notify the seven sisters, we're going to have something that's flying today, monitor it, but don't say anything. We've flying at Malt 3, which is 2200 miles an hour, so we can cover most of the United States in two or three hours. You know wait, so NORRAD controlled our flights. There's no flight plan anything. NORRAD with NORRAD tracked over and then notified the sector to fly into. We got a top secret plane flying into your sector, monitor it, don't say anything. And we might even fly away to Florida and back and they just NORRAD had notified everybody, you know, keep it quiet for this top secret. How hot what's the altitude? Well, 17 miles, 1980. Mostly we cruise above 80,000. We could go to 90. And what altitude do commercial planes fly at typically? About 35 to 40, 35 to 40, so even when we start flying the U2 it was 13 miles up. And at that time nothing flew above 35,000. So when we started ordering components for the U2 and they 12 with ordered out damages for 100,000 feet, towards the image that what in the world you need that for. You know that sort of thing. So how many of you were brought out to Area 51 and what year was that? Yeah, I went out and actually in 68, 68 of the NASA. The arena brought me out, okay, back to 7 sisters, you know, we were tracking it. As they were developing the A12 through Mark 1, Mark 2, Mark 3, Lockheed was doing this. They need to certify the speed. My radar site was the only one tracking there. It's 15. We had a velocity recorder. Most radar sites don't have this. So they would contact me. I had a clearance. Most of you guys didn't own NASA. You know, we didn't need clearance. I still had my clearance. And so they'd notify me. We need you to track this plane today. I wasn't really the radar operator. I was above that. But anyway, I would go in and operate it because I had a clearance. Shut the door. No one could come in and even let a radar operator in there. No. No. Because nobody knew about that plane. No one knew. And we weren't told. Always said we're going to have something fly today. And they didn't tell where it's, of course, when you, you know, four or five miles away, we were tracking that thing all the time. Skin track. We could skin track it for a few miles. But we didn't have the beacon code, so we couldn't track it in longer distance. But we always watching for it under spare time, because before the A12 would take off on an authority, the chase planes, they have one or one that would take off first, the weather flights, and a head of it. So we would be watching for them. And it was about the answer. All that big, a fast new drone take off in a minute now would be right. And we're tracking for a few seconds, and even going, you know, right. Now, is it true? We talked about this briefly before we started, but Annie Jacobson said in her book, the first jet propelled airplanes that were tested off of Groom Lake, they, the CIA pilots would bring monkey masks into their plane. And in case, and the reason she explained this to me is because if they come into visual distance with the commercial airplane, they would wear the monkey mask. So the person that saw it wouldn't be able to rationalize it or explain it to anybody when they're at the bar. And they think they're crazy. Yeah, actually this was that actually at Edwards or. Oh, Edwards. Yeah, it was the Edward or more. I think it's called before Edwards before Edwards. And actually, it was for even other Air Force pilots, because it's the plane with no propeller on it. Right. And what the world is that, you know, it's in Air Force pilots. Yeah, even therefore. So, so, some guy had found it down in a hundred Sunday Eagle or close to Disneyland. Anyway, he had found a place that sold monkey shoots suits just out of joke. It was a joke, but they decided where those and they wore them and the guys would see them and they'd go, "I just saw a monkey flying a plane with no propeller." And they'd laugh him out of the place, you know. So, they just did this for fun. This wasn't like part of the. No, it was just for fun. This wasn't protocol. No, it wasn't protocol. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it was just someone climbing around and he had cigar. The first one, he had cigar, monkey smoke cigar. Of course, that's folklore now. And then in the NASA and Edwards, you know, everybody knows about it. I was a big joke back then. So, when you when you were at Air 51, how much time did you spend their total? I was there actually at Air 51, about five years. About five years? Starting in 68. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they brought me out there. The reason they brought me out there is before they retired the 812, you know, that was our first tailplane. We made it a tailplane. And they need to get some radar crawl session at Mach 3. And they didn't have any operators that was qualified nor radar out there at the time. So they actually brought one of my knocky radar out of Fort Bliss, Texas that I had much cruel on and used out at White Sands, whatever. Out to Air 51 and they brought me out right as the tail end of arch cart to get Mach 3 radar crawl session track of the 812. So they've become as fast as if you didn't pick it up on the horizon at 2,200m on our radar can never catch it. You know, you couldn't physically move your radar. So they had someone that was qualified for high speed tracking. And they brought me out especially for that. And then I stayed on for the for the stealth. And by that time we were moving into other stealth projects. And to see how he was really really big on stealth. They fathered himself. They weren't anyone else. But then we were getting their hands on the Soviet equipment that Megs and Radar had a 6-day war. Israel was capturing all this Russian equipment during the 6-day war. And as we were developing stealth, we needed to know what these Russians would be seeing. So we had our hands on their radar and used it at Air 51 to track whatever we were tracking to see how effective we were. That's incredible. And we reversed the engineer the talking radar that was in back to the human flight. We determined, yes, that radar would be able to pick up the black birds in time for the Russians to launch their missiles. They would be able to shoot us down. So we'd never flew another flight over Russia. We learned that radar could do that. That's incredible. So that's what that mission determined was, yes, it would get us. Before that, before the time they could see us, they didn't have time to even arm the missiles or launch them. We were gone. Yeah. And they would shoot missiles at us over Vietnam. And they would actually catch up, occasionally, with the plane. And they had a proximity fuse on them. And they detonate. And we outrun the explosion. It'd be behind us. And it couldn't catch us. In the black birds. No black birds ever hit. We had one black bird hit by a missile. I have a Dennis Sullivan, C.I. pilot. And he didn't even know it had been hit. He landed at Cadena. Whoa. And they found a piece of metal and his wing that lodged in the wing. A little piece of shrapnel. A piece of shrapnel. Wow. That's as close as we ever came to get shot down. That's bonkers. For we outrun them. Yeah, that was the thing. Unfortunately, there's a lot of folks out there who have to rely on alcohol or marijuana in order to wind down at the end of a stressful day. But what many people don't know is that Omni-to-Miscaria can provide way better results without the negative downsides. Most people assume that Omni-to-Miscaria is like a trippy botanical, but it's nothing like that. 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We actually became a laboratory. See, I was there for 20 years when we had every radar known to the man just about. And the people all cried at qualifications, all of that different qualifications that they recruited for out there. So we stopped flying planes. When the 812 moved out and June is 1968, we retired the blackbirds. And that's our 71 to go over. The Air Force did have built Air Force Base. They were never airfits one. Anyway, we were still there, but we had all this equipment. What we were doing, you know, we're still doing the Soviet megs with different Soviet equipment in there, which turned down, see how they built it, put it back, getting them flying it. And they had doughnut, which was the mid-21. We went out of the Korean War shooting guns in the Vietnam War shooting missiles. And sent a plane though there with no guns, F-A-F-F-4s, whatever. And the 9-1 kill ratio was 9-1 against us. They were whacking us out of the sky. And Vietnam. And Russians came up with this new Meg-21, mystery plane. And we thought it was that plane. And desperately trying to get our hands on one. And the Iraqi defected with a brand new Meg-21 to Israel. And then Israel owned it to us. And that was have doughnuts. So, the Air Force brought in, or the Navy did first, they brought in two against it, everything they had in their arsenal. On the first tribe, we got a 100% kill against the Navy, everything they had with the Meg, with the Meg. Whoa! The Air Force came in, same thing, 100% kill. Within two months, the Navy realized what the problem was. It wasn't the plane. Our pilots didn't know how to fight against it. We were sending our pilots in the Vietnam with no training against the Megs. And we realized that the Megs, the pilots, 10 missions in Vietnam before they learned enough that they might survive the war. So we decided, let's give them those 10 missions in the United States, in Nevada. So, the Navy, we've been two months, or started top gun school. And we got our hands on some Megs. And then the Air Force started to exercise red flag. And we started training our pilots before we sent them to Vietnam. Once we did that, we totally turned the kill ratio around since then. And then we started getting the squadron of Megs at Tone of Paul Tess range in Nevada, just off the Air Force line. And we'd find them against our pilots, how they know us only, how they know us, we're learning range, we've experienced against the Megs. Our pilots that flying the Megs actually flew, we flew them like Russians. Russian technique. We sent our pilots to different countries that were flying the Soviet Megs and been trained by the Soviets. And they flew to these guys, like Somoya, this one place we went. So we learned the Russian techniques. Once they came back, that's how we flew. They flew the Russian National Anthem before we left where they took off. So they're thinking, you're Russian today, you're Russian. Whoa. And they flew like Russians to give our guys the real experience out on the range of real Russian techniques. And that's it. And once we started that, that was the Red Eagles, we called them. And once, but since we actually did the Red Eagles, we lost only one plane in the surface of air to air combat since Vietnam. And that was their desert storm. We had a megafox bat for 25 marks, Mr. 25 Fox bat shooting that one for F18s. But we could lose in plane. So it was not the equipment. It was the, it was the, the flyers training training. Did you guys ever recruit any Russians that were trained to fly this? These things are any Russian pilots. Do you guys ever get those? No, we use the Israeli Israeli. Yeah. So the Israelis knew how they were defectors. They had the first one to get their hands on the planes. And equipment and then they give it to us. And I got to tell you, for sure, though, on these, the Mi-21, shortly tore it down and see how they built it, put it back together and move to that, you know, we had to have it back to Israel in 30 days, really. I used it for some kind of celebration or whatever. But we wasn't evaluated way too ancient on it first. And we had it tied down. And out of the 51, you know, was right off the comic bomb testing range. So we were on our security badges. We wore those sensors and film badges and everything for radiation. And we get a red test, this plane. And someone says, you know, we better get it up to the film badges. Someone will get one circle into the engine. Film badges. Yeah. Sure. Our security badges with all the film stuff on it. Yeah. You know, we'll come to check. We got them all about 25. And always like to say, we gave him no more power. Anyway, we shouldn't crack that engine up. And it's just a scream in that old plane sitting there tugging. And he gets right in front of you draw away. He sucked everyone or badges through the engine to everyone. And we had to have that thing back to Israel. And fortunately, some of the right rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap, rap with you guys. And she guys based out of Florida here. Right. Patterson. Yeah. No, no, no, um, Pratwit, Pratwit, Pratwit. Pratwit me. Yeah. They built the engines for all the Blackbirds. Okay. And the Navy. And they were, they came to Florida. Anyway, some of their guys were still out of the area from the Blackbirds. And they tore the plane down and buffed out all the dings that they were getting flying away. They were getting back to Israel still flying. That's insane. That's what we call always moments. Wow. We had a lot of those. So obviously, this is the late 60s, early 70s when you guys are doing this. And this is, was the, was the lure of Area 51 in the area after Roswell happened and the whole. Absolutely not. No one knew about. So nobody knew what Area 51 was. Everyone knew it was out there. No, no secret. They just didn't know who was out there. Uh, supposedly we were flying the U2 start with. And it had NASA stickers on it decals. We supposedly it was the NASA altitude research project. We were next door to the atomic bomb testing. Their base camp survived all of our logistics or film badges. We used the same film badges they used on the top of their bomb range or the security badges. I'm sorry. Yeah. And, and, uh, haircuts, banking, anything like that. We lived out there all week. Right. So we had them on the morning came home Friday night. Did you guys fly out on those Janet flights? No, that was before Janet. Okay. That was before the Janet side. I have a special, I got to fly out on a clean air. And we had it parked right off the McCarran International. Was it like a turbo prop or something? Yeah. And it was, um, uh, sitting in a little block building at the end of the runway of McCarran Airport, uh, International. We had a gate, but we come in off the street. We didn't even go into the airport. We go through that gate, open, go into the building, open the doors, push our plane out, hop in it and take off without a word. Wow. But most of our guys threw out of Nell's Air Force Base. And they were in the most classified area of the base. The F 111 was the thing back then as a bomber. Okay. And, and we flew out of that area. And it was funny. You know, we all more civilian clothes. We carried brief cases in those days. We kept our pockets full of pins and slide rules and that kind of stuff. And we were on the base. And of course, we didn't exist as far as, I mean, no one saw it. You know. Right. We were on the base and we'd go into the, in the hanger there, they had a coke machine. And we might go in there, grab a coke or something, be some airman in there. And we'd walk in, they'd almost knock the door there and get out. I don't know what they had been told about us. But they, because we didn't, we did not exist anywhere. Wow. Were there any areas there like any big hangers or buildings that you never got to go into or look at or? I was able to, basically, they're later on Nell. Originally, when it was just the Archart guys, there's eight, 12 guys, they go all over the place. But once we moved in and started bringing in the megs, then they couldn't even come in my building. And one place we couldn't go into with the CI's communications building. They had a community. There were certain areas that you didn't go into. But basically, we had to run up to later. And then later, other projects started coming in. And I'd like to say, this was, I don't forgot in this now. We started doing prototypes. When we start flying, I think I stopped before I got into that. We started doing prototypes, Lockheed, Boeing, different north of the competing for a contract with the Navy or the Air Force or whomever, and they'd build their prototype up in their region and fly it on their test ranges, which was a reason for a lot of UFO sightings in Seattle and in California with them testing a new type of plane that they wanted their scene before. On private test ranges? Yeah, on the company's test ranges. Right. Once they got ready to present it to whoever the customer was, they'd bring it there if it was one. The CIA had our special project team there and all of our equipment, and we at that time had become a laboratory. We had data processing systems and that sort of thing, which was unique in those days. And what it basically was, we'd had two customers who were going to buy the plane or platform where they called it and the vendor. And we were there in the middle that shows what you got. And we had the men and equipment to put it through the whole of the paces and see if it could do what the north of a whomever. You were like the inspectors. We were the inspectors. We proved what it worked for now. Wow. And that's still one of the biggest functions out there. We quit flying planes with the A12. So who were like the biggest contractors that were out there? Because basically, Area 51 is all run by controversy. I think EG and G is one of the biggest ones, right? EG and G had the special projects. And we were invaded in EG and G, the special projects, the CIA people were. And the law created at that time was the prime contractor that was built in the planes at that time. But you had Magna Box, you had Sylvania, all your TV companies were electronic at that time. You'd have Texas Instruments building all these components. And so you had people coming out to Area 51 from the contractors and they had to, of course, they were cleared to be out there. And you know, they might be out there one day or a week, but they didn't stay out there. Right. And the people like that could not live in the state of Nevada. The only one that could live in Nevada was the CIA people and support like the crooks and that sort of thing. And everyone else had to commute out of state because at that time when they did the YouTube, there wasn't about 263,000 people in the whole state. Wow. And they didn't want a bunch of strangers showing up. Who's that? So everybody commuted out of California, out of Burbank and March Air Force Base and they commuted up on Monday morning at home on Friday night. But we were able to live in Vegas because we were different. You had a different level of clearance. Yeah. And we did not interact with each other. The pilots and stuff couldn't come in my building. Oh, really? They kept it very stove piped. Yeah. They didn't have a need to know. One of them, within my group, as we grew and got more projects, you know, customers, there were 23 of us. And we worked together and we played together. We all had cruisers on like me on weekends, our families played together and we worked together. You guys all stayed in your own little bubble and we didn't trust. We didn't trust anyone else. Right. That's interesting. And but we get up to work. Maybe we'd have different customers with different projects. And you didn't ask your buddy there, "Hey, how you doing that for how that worked or what is it?" You would help him. He'd say, "Hey, Joe, I need a hand." And you could give him a hand, but you didn't ask him questions. Right. And I got to think about this long back, you know, known these guys for all these years. None of us knew each other's background, even then. We never asked. Never asked. You never asked. And I got to think about it. You know, I think I'm the only one that's still living, now it's our special project. Really? But very few, I could tell you what they did before the January 51. And they didn't know what I did. Fascinating. I always wondered what it was like to be able to do stuff like that that's super compartmentalized and live with your significant other, your spouse and not have to tell them anything. You're going back to recruitment. Mine was different because I'd been involved in stages. Yeah. So I was cleared and they knew me, so that wasn't a big deal. You were already in the system? In the system. But my few pilots, when they seeking pilots for the CIA, they went to the Air Force that went to the top pilots. So they go through their pilots and they send them back to Langley and they might meet in some motel or rest or something. And they had no idea who was the interviewer of them. And they give you tests, they go through multiple tests and stuff. And they progress and they send them back and they pass, they bring them back again. And these guys, they thought that both of them thought that they'd been questions to become astronauts. They had no idea. Wow. And so when they finally accept the guy and we had 11 of them that we accepted, only one out of four qualified men and our qualifications, even though they were the Air Force's top people. And the way they tell the guy, okay, we want to offer you a job and say, what is it I can't tell you? Where is it? Well, let me tell you, West Mississippi, and you won't be able to take your family. Lost figures about your family, no way how is it, you know. And that stopped pretty soon because of the wise district when they found it, but no way. But anyway, the guys did not know what they're going to be flying until they arrived out at Area 51. They opened up the hangar doors. Here's what you're going to be flying. And we had one guy with the age 12 in particular, turn around on a fly that's like, and he went back in. Equate. Yeah. And we went back in there for what we did is how we got them. We had the sheep dip out of the, we called sheep dipping out of the Air Force into the CIA. But then they, what they did, we signed their commission. They went on contract with the CIA. Most of those were contract. A lot of people didn't realize it, about 40 to 60% of your intelligence agencies are military. And they, they convert over to civilian status while at the agency. Right. And then you go back and uniform. That's the way our guys. Yep. So they sheep that when they became civilians. The reason for that when we started flying the U2 and they 12, flying over enemy territory if they got shot down and used any uniforms at the war. So it had to be civilians. So Area 51 was a civilian facility. It was not military at all. We had, we had Air Force guys there. Well, the CIA didn't know how to run an air base. And that's what it was. We called it the facility. But it was an air base. Right. And they brought in the Air Force squadron. They worked for the CIA. They were not allowed to report up to the chain of command. I don't care. General of May, no one could actually want to know where this is working. They reported only to Air Force officer that was attached to Dick Bitz of the CIA headquarters. Right. Him only. To check that. They were not allowed to answer to anybody else. Nobody. How did they join chiefs? Nobody. Nobody. They know how to contact them. And how much of the president know about this stuff, do you think? Very little. And for good reason. Classical. No. Classical? No, no, no. I bet. Yeah. He's for you to say. Yeah. He's for you to say. I've had a major, I've broken four places. I had a lot of time. Wow. Hard time talking. Wow. So the president doesn't know much. No. And he doesn't want to know much. Right. Only what he needs. The Congress doesn't need to know. I'll tell you how, let's talk about the secrecy a little bit. When Truman, Harry Truman became president when Roosevelt died, he did not know we had the atomic bomb. Wow. The only few people in Congress ever knew we had the YouTube plane, even though we've been sliding since 1956 until the Jerry Powers crack, got shot down in the 1960s. That's when it exposed the program. Of course, Russian, you had it, right? But foreign intelligence knew more than the president knew. That's crazy. But we used to be in pilots and we never called it every 50, want to air base. It was a facility. Are everyone used to their name? You didn't use your real name. Now my group used code name, code name was Thunder. Thunder. But the pilots all had suitable names that they actually used on all their paperwork, everything. And they'd see I got these names off of gravestones in Europe. So the pilots never used their real names. Why gravestones in Europe? I don't know, I don't know, but that's just where they got them. That's awfully creative. There's a lot of things that I want to say strange, but when they hired security people for out there, the CIA, they went to Pennsylvania and hired 30 women, 26, so I came out of one little coal mining town in Pennsylvania. Can you match those guys there? I'm in there. co-mitters. Right. And now the security guards, well, Las Vegas was run by the mob back then. Right. And these guys hung out in Stardust, Christine, you know, at one end of the bar with the security people, at the other end with the mob. Sure. It was fun. Of course, in general, not knowledge back then, you know, later on. Right. He learned all this, you know. Right. That's wild, man. That's like a twilight zone. Yeah. But the, um, but anyway, back to recruiting the pilots, we had one in particular. He, you know, often in the job, he said, well, I need to check with my wife. Okay. Go check with your wife. He came back. They weren't there. If he had to check with his wife to set the job top secret job, they didn't want him. Interesting. Very interesting. And a lot, a lot of, you know, your listeners are familiar with Marty Cronutsson. He flew the YouTube plane. And later became a head of a NASA at the Dryden. And the, um, Marty Cronutsson, they brought him out for the YouTube plane. He would then get off the bus. He said, I don't remember fly that thing. He ended up flying it, but he did. He ended up doing it. Yeah. Pull the photo of the YouTube plane. It's bonkers. I don't fly that thing. Yeah. Well, so what, what was the year they discontinued the YouTube? It's still flying. It's still flying. Yeah. No way. It's still flying. They built the, the 812 to replace it. And I thought we used more drones now. Oh, we're using, well, they're not, I think we're down to just recently, but then the last month, the thing was reduced down to three U2s. Three U2s. But we still got them and we still need them. There's certain conditions where you need them. Let's talk about the flies a little bit. The U2 flights, there were places where the U2 couldn't fly. Mm-hmm. So like China, so we organized a squadron of Taiwan, these pilots, Alcadena, the flight of U2. We had American commander, Colonel Slater, who later became our commander out at Area 51. Yeah. But when we flew flying to the night, the night territory, like China, we used Chinese pilots. When we were flying over the Soviet Union out of Turkey, well, at times when the, it got really, really sensed in the President, it wouldn't off-right to fly it. But we really needed that flight, bad. So we had recruited five, actually four, we had five of them, UK guys, four of them pilots, stationed to the CIA in Turkey. So when the President would turn down the CIA's flights, they said, what are you, brits? We're going to fly it anyway. Plus, the President would say, I didn't fly it. Right. I didn't fly it, but we flew it anyway. 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And that's reason like in the latest book I wrote about Secret Skies, we were able to fly the megs there as well and no one ever knew it. We had no flies on that we could do all kind of flying, you know. Secret Skies by GDP. And thick. Yeah, I had a lot to say. But what was our question? Just being aware of the lore of UFOs and flying saucers in Roswell. We tried to prevent being seen. So we painted the YouTube black. It was silver. And every now and then the sun would hit it. 13 miles up in the air. And then flash and people would see it. It was a UFO. So we painted it black. Hopefully they wouldn't be able to see it. And the weight of the paint, we lost 1,500 feet of altitude. Right. Just putting the paint on. Wow. But we were very conscious of not being seen. Not because of the UFO thing. But only actually, therefore, it took over in 79 that people weren't realized that C.I. had been out there for over 20 years. No one knew what would have been done. And we're not talking. It's still classified. And that's when their imaginations run wild. And it starts putting the aliens out there. The flying saucers and that sort of thing. But that's all speculation. But up until then, no one had ever associated anything with the very fifth one. You guys never thought about it, never talked about it, nothing like that. No. No. And that's a good point. We still don't. You know, we flew over almost 18,000 missions with the black birds. No telling how many of the YouTube's, oh, you know, all these flights, we have reunions. It used to be 6, 700 of us there. And we sit around at your hours, drinking beer, more stories. Not one time I have ever heard a pilot talk about UFOs. Really? Never. It never entered our minds. That's wild. Because that was the time, you know, during all the nuclear testing and stuff like that, when that was ramping up was when you hear the most reports of it. Yeah. But that wasn't pilots. We flew all these missions. We had guys in mirror space station and the ISS, Gordon and Space Shuttle people. They never saw any of that. You never, you never heard of someone out having to go out and wash the windshield of a plane to get the nose prints off of it from plane from a pilot, little UFOs. We saw stuff. Yeah. But no big deal. So sure, you're familiar with the Bob the Tsar story. Oh, yeah. What did you make of that when you first heard of it? It's anyone's ever been out of it. It's one of the secrets immediately. Really? Oh, why? Every aspect of it is. There's no way he could have been out there. No one ever went on area 51 that they wasn't cleared. First of all, and their name wasn't record. It just didn't happen to get into area 51. I don't care. Even the president. He had to be vetted. We have kernels and stuff that would need to come out there. It really needs to come out there. But they would have a very, very hard time getting clearance across. Right. I heard Richard Helms went out there once. And had like a big seafood party or something. Yeah. Of course, Bessel came out there all the time. I worked with Bessel and Helen, his administrative assistant, I guess you'd call her. She and I were meant close friends up for years, years. That's from that. But she was the first woman to spend the night at Area 51. Oh, wow. But she was out of the history. These classified history found the projects to Helen did. So I think Bob said that he was there in 88 and 89. And he said he was there during December. So he said he was interviewed in October of 88. And he worked all of December of 88. I know all of the security guards. Maybe one or two left now. But I've known all the years. And you asked them. Did you ask them? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah, we talked about our face. Because no one came out there that didn't go through security. I don't know what I should tell that. It identified a relative that worked out there at your main. And she was in security. And and she run the matter. You had to be on a manifest. I can tell you on the chain of slides. First of all, you got to be on a manifest, every drone plane over your area approved. And then you got to have the right badges. If you're not I don't want to manifest you don't go in there, I don't care who you are. And she said that he was never on a manifest? Yeah. And the end of the cards too. I'll give you just an example. We had a lot of transit traffic out of Area 51 that people never knew they was there. One night I was a film named Calvin Dawson and I was working on a radar. Late in the evening just at your sundown and C-130 landed and usually they would land and they would come up to security and security come out and check them in before the yellow plane. They had to be their badges checked and all that and the manifest. Well this plane instead of growing up to security circled them into the lake beds out behind our radar sites and we're standing in the world throwing on and security came out there to meet it. And we're watching all this with a very unusual and person we saw the guys marched right by the information it was Chinese. They had brought a squadron of Chinese out there. They did not know that they were Area 51. They never knew it. But they said they were for three months. What we done was training them to drop sensors out of C-130s over China. And they were staying at Area 51 and using our dry lake bed for their training. No way. You never knew that at Area 51 that's why that was the black batch you look from a black batch. Black batch. That's the destiny classified. So I think Bob's story he says that he was going to a place called Site 4, have you ever heard of that place? Oh yeah. So Site 4 is real? Yeah. We had a microwave, it's another little dry lake bed, a little bit south of us. Okay. But Site 4 was actually another site. We had a site for, but it was north of us and that's where we had all the Soviet radar. We had moved the radar from slated lake. We had a little spring right off of Green Lake and a few trees and shrubs, we had planned over Soviet radar there and as we increased, we moved them to Site 4 and we had an air strip there. This one were remote sites, but that was the Soviet radar was there. Okay. So there were two Site 4s? Yeah. Pat Pus was never Site 4. Oh. Bob and his other story is faultful. So there's no underground base hidden in a mountain? Absolutely nothing. That is just a bare mountain with a microwave tower on top of it, a little dry lake bed. Yeah. Where we found from date or day one, because even Annie talks about some of the super secret tunnel stuff that was going on. There wasn't any. There was no tunnel, like the tunnel. Absolutely. And Annie had a lot of problems in her book. Did she really? But this way, she became Pus on a non-grata that anyone would ever work to do if it's one. Did she really? Absolutely. Wow. Well, I would assume, okay, so, so if you are her and you're kicking all these horn snests that are close to the top most top secret things in America and talking to all these retired generals and Air Force people and CIA people, uh, after she publishes that book, I would imagine they would make her Persona non-grata like they, because they wouldn't be happy about some of that information that came out. Actually, there's nothing to classify the inner book, mostly just unreal. There's nothing declassified. No. Hmm. I mean, I absolutely declassified it. Everything is declassified. Right. Right, right, right. But she said in my living room, the basic commander sitting there, she interviewed him. All the people, most of the people that that worked out there, President of the organization, she did most of her interviews in my living room. And we gave her access to the top people. I mean, the every story. Yeah. We brought her back, I brought her back to Langley and took her through CIA headquarters. We gave her access to everything. And then what she did is mixed the atomic bomb range with Area 51 that all of that story is about atomic bombs and stuff. That's DOE. That was EC back then, we were DOD and CIA, two different bogies. So DOE was not involved in Area 51 at all? DOD was. What about the part of the energy? No. Absolutely not. Never allowed on the place. And she started interviewing all these jobs that worked for the atomic bomb, on the atomic bombsite. Right. It's so shaking, it was Area 51, but it's apples and oranges had nothing to do with it. Interesting. I never had Area 51. That's got to be a very hard job to do as a journalist, is to try to unravel the secrets of the American Empire. Not really. She was looking for what she put in it. Well, I'll give you an example. We had, I think, a 90-year-old engineer out at the top of the bomb range. She kept interviewing him and she said, "Give me something juicy, give me something juicy." And he made up a story and she put it in her book and you know Bill, ABC Nightline, her interview with ABC Nightline? Who's in it? Bill L.I. I'm not familiar now. Anyway, he was ABC Nightline in New York. It was in my living room, and Annie Jacobs was there. I was asking her a question about that. Why did you put all this in your book? And she said, "I'm a journalist," and he said it to me, so I allowed to say it. I mean, allowed to use it. Right. And he told her, so he told her what? He told her what? That's what she told ABC Nightline, because I'm a journalist, because he said, "I can use it. It didn't have to be true." Interesting. But a big part of that, when she started mentioning up the Tomacan Energy Commissions, because she just actually was, I shouldn't say too much here, but she was looking for dirt. Did you, what did you think about that? Better told her book. You got to give her credit. She had a number four in the best way out of this. So that's the kind of stuff that sales. Well, what did you think about her story of the Roswell crash, when she says that she spoke to an EG&G engineer named Alfredo Donnell. He was pseudonymous in the book, and she recently released his-- That's who I'm talking about. That's who you're talking about. Yeah. And I know him well. He says, "She just pressed me for something choosing. I found it. She just told her a wild story. And she used it." Really? Yeah. He's still alive? No. Yeah. I need to hold on well. So his story was that he told her, was that the crash at Roswell, that they found that the alien bodies were basically children that had surgery done to them to make them look more like aliens, and it was the Mengele Nazi, the Mengele dude who did it. And she asked this EG&G engineer, "Why wouldn't the U.S. government let this out, because this would make the Soviet Union look terrible?" And his answer to her was, because we were doing the same things. Yeah. He told her the same thing. We were done in early 51. That's why it got us a man at her. It seems huge to us. And I got right in her face, I said, "You're cuter than me, and not relative of this very thing." I said, "You know better." She said, "Well, he told me that, because all these said it, I can use that." Well, why would he tell her that if he knows she's not in a book? As a joke. Because she kept bugging him. He told me. He said she'd just kept bugging me. "Give me something juicy." So he gave her something juicy. He was never there. He was one. He was a tomorrowsian energy guy. That seems like a crazy thing to tell someone running a book. You know, if she believes you, I mean, I'm sure he could tell that he believed early. Was there a laughing afterwards? Oh, yeah. I'm sure. But Bertrandi said it. Very odd. And that's what really got us really, really, really angry. That tears us to doing that sort of thing. I mean, that was the foolish thing away from what we were doing, you know? Mm-hmm. That's the guy with the CAA badge on this jacket. Yeah. I thought anytime I'd dispute any of this, I'm one of those paid guys, you know? Uh-huh. Yeah, that's everybody nowadays. Oh, yeah. Anyone who says something you disagree with online, they're automatically paid for it. Oh, yeah. By a foreign intelligence agency. But Rawls, you know, that was nothing but balloons. Nothing there. You think Roswell was balloons, yeah. What do you think about the things that the pilots are reporting now, or they had been reporting since 2014, I believe it was when the thing came out with Ryan Graves and Commander Fraver, who were seeing these things, these TikTok things. I think Ryan Graves specifically described an object that was a cube with a sphere inside of a sphere. Yeah. Mine. And this was right after they upgraded the radar and their jets. Exactly. That particular radar is a near radar. And supposedly it was even having problems with seeing thoughts of birds as a bogey. So in my opinion, they were doing the same thing that we did there in Project Polatium. They were spoofing that radar to see what its weak points were, whoever they is. You know? Because that's what we do. Every new system comes out. evaluated to see if anyone could spoof it. And so either we were testing a new spoofing system for, you know, atomic warfare type stuff, either doing that or we were testing that radar system. So you got to keep in mind that no other radar is that of that problem. It's just the Princeton and maybe one other in that test, but it's not universal. And you got to remember the source of this. It started in 2004, it is filming. And when you got through, they put the film in a locker. In 2007, Harry Reid, no, Harry Reid, where are you going? He's from Searchlight. For people out there, who was Harry Reid? He was at the center, and he stayed forever. His land, my land and his land, join a Searchlight. I had a business down there, name for years, and Searchlight would call him Pinky. He's politician. Harry Reid always believed that we had alien spacecraft out of Air 51, and he became a senator. He burned us to death when he came out and said, "We got nothing here." He was a big believer in UFOs. In 2008, he got $22 million, passed through a defense bill, snuck it in for a UFO study. Opened up that little office in Washington, DC to study UFOs or UAPs, they'd part of the body, Ralph Bigelow and Los Vegas, and Ralph Bigelow. Ralph Bigelow bought the Schiener Walker Ranch, where all these calculations were going on all that kind of stuff, kept it for a while, and then last I heard, "I'm studying life at your death." Yes. Robert Bigelow. Robert Bigelow is, yeah. So, that's where $22 million were part of it. And it was not approved through those things or anything, it was just slipped into the bill. Interesting. But Harry Reid was a big believer in your foes for always, and I think he's behind all this UAP stuff that's going on today, but going back to your tech tech, I really think that that was because they're seeing off-shapes, and so there has to be electronics. We think so? Oh, yeah. So, our capability now is, you know, I don't know firsthand, but we can generate, like the enemies, say, a whole battalion of tanks or ships out on the ocean. Like spoofing capabilities, spoofing capabilities. We went in to Vendoruela, what, 48 minutes, we didn't even know it was there. And when you're on, they didn't know it was there until the bomb dropped. We got cape built as you can even imagine now. So, look at what we're doing without computers, with your slide rules. Now we got AI and computers, it's just unbelievable. But what I think is, with the tech tech thing, is that it is, they were either test net radar. Of course, you can imagine all the different shapes and stuff they're seeing, you know, they're just seeing all kinds of shapes and stuff. Well, that could be testing the cape built to that radar, what this incident did to this or that or whatever. There was an article that came out in the war zone, and I think Jeremy Riss is the one who told me about this. And there was a patent for some sort of radar spoofing thing or some sort of balloon that looked exactly like what Ryan Gray has described, with the sphere, with the cube inside of it, touching all the four corners. Yep. You know, they got nephysis now. I think they called it as a spoofing technique. Nemesis? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right there. Yeah, this is it. This is from the war zone. But like I said, we played it. We released all these different shapes and sizes. And we had the water disturbance, just like to describe in the tech tech. We had the submarine. It deployed out of the submarine. With palladium, one of the 15 pallets, you got them ready, you said, I see the target. Right. Well, we thought it had seen the submarine. We don't know what you saw. Right. But we dove the submarine. Emergency. Dove that submarine. It's like he has seen it. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we call this disturbance. So there's seen the same thing today. There's still disturbances in the water. All kinds of shapes and stuff. Yeah. And even back then, with the spoof radar. And they're still there today. It's just like, I get that I agree. It makes so much sense that if they had just upgraded their radars, that we would be trying to test some sort of secret technology against our own, our own, fly, our own pilots, right? Our own Navy. To see how capable it is, to see what they think about it, to see how the, the radar, track, can track it. But to me, like the fact, the way they all describe those tic-tacs moving from like point to point B in an instant, it sounds like it's a laser pointer. The way it moves so fast. Is that electronic? It could be. Yeah. I don't think it's physical. You don't think it's physical. You think it's some sort of a hologram or something. Yeah. Let me tell you about knowledge of what's going on. And like, like with the U2 and the A12 pilots, we never, ever told them what their mission was. Ever. Always, they knew at some point they'd slip a switch, turn here, turn there. They never knew what their mission was. Right. Those guys, if they had done a spoofing test, they weren't told they don't be tested. They'd be expecting it. I wouldn't imagine right? Sure. Those pilots wouldn't be told. They don't want to know until they just have to keep people that needed to know what they wouldn't tell the pilots or the people on the radar. They won't surprise. They want to be authentic. Right. No, yeah. That makes total sense. So if that thing was a non-physical thing, like a projection of some sort, how would it have to make a disturbance in the water? That could be a submarine. It could be a, okay, so you think a submarine could be below it, maybe projecting it? It could be a probe-eresting. It could be over your submarines. That's how we got, put them out in the ocean. Right. We did that, but we'd play them. So that would be a count for your submarines, your disturbances in the water, how the government, the air. I don't know whether they're using physical planes now or electronic, so this could just well be everything's electronic. Now what about plasma ball stuff? Is there anything that you're wearing like using plasma or anything like that? Now we tried using plasma as a stealth technique, even on the A12s. Another story that was project, what melody, anyway, we had a project and we used an arc welder to provide the electricity for this thing, and then there blew the barn doors off the hanger. It exploded. That's the end of that. But we were experimenting with plasma, plasma with the experiment on guns, everything for stealth back in the early days. Wow. Yeah. I mean, there's so many well-documented stories from folks during the '50s that were working on physicists that were working on anti-gravity. You have Ed Witten, who was doing this, a lot of people in North Carolina who were very involved, very actively working on anti-gravity stuff, Towns and Brown, all these people, this electro-gravitics type stuff, anti-gravity, and then all of a sudden, it all went black. People speculate pretty unanimously who are into this stuff that this was grabbed by the private sector or intelligence and it went black to be studied, not in the public. Have you ever witnessed or heard of anything like that being tested or tinkered with? I've never seen it, but I heard that Northrop had developed that they had a floating coffee table. I don't know if this is true or not. This is several years ago, but of course, that kind of stuff was going on. Now, you know, I don't know a lot about this either, but the radar kind of obsolete now. In the future, like the downpodits in Iran, the heart, the armor, the ghost murmur. They were trying to put these wind turbines on the back of the test side for a generate energy. And they got disapproved because the noise and fear of what was going on in the area. No telling. Yeah. We definitely have those underwater too, right? Yeah. Like when that submarine imploded that was looking at the Titanic, allegedly they heard it from like the other side of the earth with their underwater acoustical detection. Exactly. And I'm sure like all the stuff that we see and hear about that's happening in the skies. I imagine there's going to be way more happening beneath the ocean, but nobody's going to be able to see that. I heard a story of who was telling us the story of the submarine thing. Oh, who was the gentleman that was a McGuire, Bob McGuire was just in here telling us a story about a submarine pilot or captain of a submarine, a nuclear submarine, where they had this crazy thing on their radar or on their sonar, whatever you call it, on the submarine, that flew past their submarine and made a crazy sound and the people were aware of it. We call that a fast walker. Those happened from time to time. And I've heard other stories from Navy pilots and submarine pilots or submarine captains of like weird anomalous objects that are like really big, moving really fast around their subs. That's all like that. But it's crazy. There's no camera. You can't, you can't get a visual on it. You just get this like this reading. No talent. It would be a great place to hide secret technology. Oh, yeah. Yeah. If we had some sort of crazy stuff that we were working on, we would, the ocean is the perfect place to hide. Yeah. It's perfect. You know, that sound travels forever. You know, certain frequencies. It'd just be perfect for anything like that. So do you, do you believe at all that there is any sort of like UFO that is non-human? I, I got no reason to believe it now. No. No, you know, I think we had found, of course, they thought of them crashing all the time. That doesn't make sense. If they were able to get here, they wouldn't be crashing. Plus, there's never been any, as far as I know, any real crash material found that it could determine was alien. Well, there's lots of stories of that kind of stuff. There's lots of stories, but you know, where's the proof? And, you know, the people, the people who really don't, most people don't believe that. You've got to, you've got to be looking for that kind of stuff to see it. You know outside, you see, all the time you'll see something you can identify, but most people think you think about it, because we've got millions of odds in orbit, you know, space junk. You know, thousands, thousands of satellites, plane flying, air of drone flying, so there's to have flying everywhere. So, do you think that, do you believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life in the universe? Oh, well, I say, yeah. It helps work. But I would be surprised to be like a human, it should be worms, or you know, whether the habitat was, because we got sunlight, we got water. Exactly. We have a certain kind of pressure, atmosphere, but you know, everybody visualizes it, then being human shapes and stuff, there's no reason to think that. Yeah. We evolve specifically on this planet to be adapted to these conditions. You have to work. Other water world, other other Goldilocks planets are water worlds. I've got no doubt that there's life else. My thing is like, if we're looking for life in the universe, and we know that this planet is just absolutely teeming with life, and it has been for the millions and millions of years, well, wouldn't the best place to look be our neighboring planet, Mars, you know, like, wouldn't that be the most likely place? Yeah, it would. And I think it's, I would be surprised if they don't find some kind of, kind of life. It may not, you know, may be very prehistoric or whatever, you know, there's not like human three things. A lot more simple. Yeah. So then, if that's the case, what is your view on everything that's happening in these congressional UFO hearings, Trump releasing these UFO files, most of which was already available, all this. You know, in those, in those UFO files, there was a crazy story from one of the Apollo missions. I might have made Apollo 11, actually, no, it wasn't 11, it was more, I forget what it was. Yeah. I think it was 11. Were they explained seeing things weird UFOs that were not explainable? Yeah. I don't know what this scene, and you have all these people giving testimony in front of Congress, like military, like legit military people saying that they have seen or witnessed non-human entities, biological entities. Yeah. I can't believe that. Why? Why this? I don't know. I know, you know, I work with astronauts and lifelines, reconnaissance crews and everything, known most of my life, and none of them have ever encountered anything like that. So people make up stories. They don't want 15 minutes of fame, so part of that, so let me believe it, but I just have a hard time believing in any of that. So it's almost always the same people too. You don't have the general population. You don't have people out in the streets looking for UFOs, or they're immediately going crazy looking forward to anything like that. Right. Well, the mainstream media certainly don't. It's just like, why do they waste all this time in Congress and with all these people traveling all over the world and the country to come witness these things going to skiffs and do this stuff? Is it all just a distraction? Is it all just theater? I think a lot of people are just a certain thing. They're looking at the sky everywhere, won't need to see something. So you think these people really believe it? I think they do. But most people, like I said, the people of the astronauts and people who I worked with that never even entered your mind, they never talked about it. Wow. In fact, they laugh about it, you know, even some of them even come up. They see things, of course, we all do, but we don't have that frame of mind that, hey, what is that? Right. So when it comes to these spoofing capabilities, like you were saying, are responsible for the tic-tac and some of these other things that could be projections off of submarines. What are the, like the, obviously, you probably aren't up to speed on all of the most current research on the most current technology. But if you were just to speculate just wildly, right, on what could be the current capabilities or limitations of stuff like that right now? It should be satellites too. It could be what? It could be satellites or submarines. Satellites. Yeah. And, but yeah, we reaching, I don't know how forward we're going with it. I didn't know that we got tic-tac knowledge now where they can make a, I won't say a camouflage but make something disappear. You can't see it. Cloaking it? Cloaking it? Yeah. Yeah. We got cloaking capabilities, you know, and that sort of thing. And, no, tell them what we got. But, again, this, what we, the big publicity now is going with Congress and stuff, it, again, it goes back like, look at who Congress people are. Worst out lawyers or people who couldn't make it on the outside, they could be elected. Yeah. And they, they're not experts on anything but protecting the jobs. That's true. And look at Harry Reid. Yeah. It does seem to like, I, I get the view that the people, these, these, a lot of these, not all of them, but a lot of these Congress people are more interested in like becoming like celebrity influencers, you know, than they are anything else and actually doing their job. The UFO community is making a big deal about having a Senate Harry. Yeah. If you look at that Senate Harry, there was four centers, four senators in that room. And they probably were UFO believers. Right. Well, also one of the crazy things to me is that Podesta is one of the big people promoting this stuff. And also, when I'm blanking on his name again, you know what I'm talking about, the bald guy from the NSA, who, who, who, who said that the NSA is not spying on Americans, James Clapper. Yeah. Oh god. James Clapper is one of the biggest people behind this too, which is very, very fishy to me. So I don't know, I don't know. It's a mystery. You know, I don't deny that the people see such stuff. Yeah. But you gotta be, it won't see something that's, make something out of it to believe that there's, um, consciousness and believe has certainly has a lot to do with it. Because I learned from the Chicago Times, yes, I had a lot going over whatever. Me too. I don't see the, I never see UFOs. Yeah. Um, I don't know if I'd want to see one either. I was at a dinner here recently and this is pretty prominent businessman and, um, he thought I was the UFO believer for some reason. He started off with a conversation. I saw four grades today. Four grades? Yeah. I saw four grades. And he realized I wasn't that, you got four grade, he shut up. That's a hell of a way to start a conversation. It wasn't. I gotta be honest, I have a love, hate relationship with my blue jeans. The cool looking ones make me feel like I'm wearing cardboard and the comfortable ones make me look like I've given up. 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And their everyday comfort shorts have the same four-way stretch, deep pockets, and the drawstring waist. I'm wearing them all summer long, and they're 59-99. You gotta get a pair. Our listeners get 15% off their first order, plus free shipping at theperfectjean.nyc, or just Google the perfect gene and use the code Danny15 for 15% off. Again, that's theperfectjean.nyc, or just Google the perfect gene and use the code Danny15 for 15% off. ECMs and ECMs. Can you explain what those are? Electronic countermeasures, that's what your planes use to spoof radar or hide from radar. An ECM is what a missile would use, it's electronic countermeasures. It's the means they're getting through the ECM and that's one of the things I did on my flight to Tercuba, was record the ECM that they're making 15s reusing because we were just developing, you get ready to deploy the Hulk missile, and we raised on, but designing the ECM up to date, you don't have to keep up to date with the technology. They were one of the latest ECM that the Russians were using, and I said record that on that flight, so Raytheon should use it for the Hulk missile that they get ready to deploy. Okay. But that's the ongoing thing. You're always changing ECM and both sides are a cat and mouse game. Right. That's very much tied to all of these things that you think could be projections or balloons or laser projections or whatever. It's all the time. Each adversary is trying to outdo the other. You'll come up with something, and then they'll come up with something to defeat it. Did you guys ever suspect or have any sort of like foreign folks that were in Area 51 that could have been from other countries helping the US, like from Russia or China or anything like that? Not really out of the area, not helpless. The only exception would be the Israeli colonel that had flown the MiG-15 first and brought it over. He trained our pilots. Other than that, but we were flying against everything the Air Force had and then they we had. I'll give you an example of the F-84s that they brought in fly against. They used National Guard out in New Jersey. Those pilots flew, they've told you, you're going to fly the Nellers Air Force base and you're going as the top mission, the top secret mission, you're going to be flying a foreign adversary, you don't say anything. Those guys came in and they flew against our MiGs at Area 51. They never knew that they were at Area 51. They thought they were in Nellers. So a lot of times even out there, if you didn't have a need to know, you'd see something flying and you didn't ask and you didn't tell what it was. We were developing stealth and not so much in my day later on and I was aware of some stuff that they were testing out there to make it more stealthy and people see it working out there. You said boy, I didn't see anything, he didn't want to see it. I'm sure you're familiar with the Paul Benowitz story. No, I can't replace it. Paul Benowitz was a UFO researcher. He was part of Mufon, which is like the mutual UFO network, a UFO community of people. He was, I forget his profession but he was a, he might have been like an engineer or something like that. Anyways, he was just an enthusiast and he lived in New Mexico and he was constantly seeing witnessing UFOs flying over the mountains and like coming down random times or whatever. And he was talking about this in the UFO meetings that they were doing. Like this Mufon group would have conferences and stuff, people would come up and talk and explain their experiences and whatever. He was explaining this and the story goes that at the Air Force base, right across those mountains where he lived, there was a guy there named Rick Dodie who was a counter intelligence guy with the Air Force and he found out of that Paul Benowitz was doing his job was to do recon and see what people were seeing and try to like throw off people, throw people off the set of what was really happening. So he discovered Paul Benowitz and he went and met with him and what he did was he asked him everything he knew, try to figure out everything he was seeing and what he believed it was. And what Rick Dodie did was he convinced Paul, like I think what you're seeing really is alien UFOs. This is crazy. You need to really follow this threat, try to pull this threat and figure out what it is because they were concerned, the Air Force was concerned that the Soviets were trying to infiltrate the Mufon UFO community to see what they knew because they knew that that was probably some sort of secret technology or whatever. So they were using Paul Benowitz as like a conduit of disinformation to poison the well of the Mufon UFO community to make them think this really was extra to restrials and not super secret advanced technology. Very possible. And it ended up driving this guy crazy and he ended up going to like a psych ward or something and I think he died there. But you know, the fact that they would go to, and I think this was in the 80s, late 70s, early 80s maybe, and just the fact that their counterintelligence psychological operations that they were doing was so robust back then, he makes you wonder like, what is it? Like now and today's day and age information is just everywhere constantly non-stop. You know, going back to the government releasing the UFO files? Yeah. There's absolutely no way the government's ever going to release any classified documents. They'd be crazy too. You know, like your spoofing techniques or that's your even spoofing or any of that, because that's units of the enemy. Right. You just don't do that especially as much of your UFO people. You just don't, you don't give away secrets. And for a good reason, I mean China would love it. Right. Right. Right. Well, I mean, the story goes as most people suspect that those countries have the same kind of stuff that we have. And you don't tell commerce. Mm-hmm. That's workplace tomorrow. Right. Exactly. Tell your secret. Let's pause. I got to take a pee real quick. Right back. I did a deal back with the DA. They invited me there for the give a presentation to the workforce when they put a big logo in there. At the entrance, like you got your CA, the DA went in. They invited me back and I gave a presentation to the workforce, me and one of the YouTube copies. And when the director was the first one to walk across the logo and me and Tony Bavacra, the YouTube pilot were the second one and our wives were the second ones to walk across the logo. At the DA. Wow. But you put it on her. Wow. Yeah. And that's so, so that was when they were grilling you and getting, trying to get all this information out of you about all your experiences where they were going to classify this. And you were saying, this is what led you into writing their books? Yeah. I had already, you know, at that time, I hadn't written the books. No. Yeah. That's when we started all that. But we went to all the workforce and just telling the story. And we did that for 10 days. But the CA sponsored it. But I've been in many, many panels and stuff at universities and stuff. Dr. Robards, he's the chief historian at CA. He and I are becoming his real personal friends. But anyway, we've appeared at universities all over the country talking to each other. We're talking today. Right. I'm sure it's to the students and stuff. Let me ask you this. When you wrote your books, I assume you had to get them reviewed by the CIA. Yeah. Was there anything that had to be redacted or left out? Everything. No really. Everything was clear. Everything. In fact, they were learning. They didn't know whether they were classified or not. Yeah. They didn't know about it. Wow. I'll give you an example. Robards called me up here a while back. been sure of much now. They came across, they came across. a document had project red flag on it. And you go back into your folder, they've known about red flag and they always associate it with some UFOs, aliens stuff. Red flag. Anyway, he probably had phones, oh, are we on there now? Yeah, yeah, we're good. Yeah, we're on. Can you say this on the air? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I didn't know it was on there. Oh, yeah. Is that okay? Do you want us to tell you anything? Okay. We were talking about the CIA still learning stuff about what I don't want to hear if it's one. Right. And a project red light has always been a topic that people had seen you about the associated with UFOs, activities, aliens and stuff, or didn't know what it was. And Dr. Robard from the CIA called me up and they said, you know, we got a lot of documents here with red flag, red light on it. Yep. What is that? What was that? Well, we had two projects, one was the YouTube program, it's frog horn. And then with 812, it was red light. Everything when we both supplies, like commissary supplies or fuel for the planes or anything, we couldn't tell the vendor where it was going, what it's for or who it's for. So you stepped at project red light or project frog horn and they knew not to ask any questions, no questions. And that's what those doctors were. They were actually invoices and stuff, you know, accounting or whatever for fuel, commissary items and stuff that for the facility out there. Oh, wow. But the CIA didn't they didn't know what that was. And he had almost be boot on the ground and know a lot of that. Right. We signed a project name to almost everything we did. Yeah. Maybe just one flight, but have a project name that is a special flight. So this just popped into my head on the subject of all this technology or wear up the spoofing technology and all this stuff and the the ECM's and the ECCM's and the tic-tac stuff, the tic-tac stuff's interesting because this is stuff that you're hearing third party right through pilots. They said they saw this with their eyes are giving testimony. We have no reason not to believe them. But what about when it comes to events where it's like a mass public sighting similar to like the phoenix lights where they were all seeing these giant triangle shaped light formations in the sky. And that's on video is on photos. What do you think that was? My I'd be inclined to say it might be flares or something like that, but I really don't know flares. It could have been some flare activity for some reason. There's no feeling. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And those perfect V formations. Like you think flares would be able to stay in that in a formation and hover like that. Not like that. They wouldn't. No. No. Not like what we're seeing. And that one on the right is crazy. Top right, Steve. Up, up, down right there. Yeah, right there. I think that's a rendering. Oh, that's a rendering. Yeah. Damn it. Hmm. Trying to stick with the non replicated stuff. I don't know if this is authentic either. Mm-hmm. 29 years ago. Yeah. In 1997. It's hard to say. Very interesting. Yeah. I had no idea what that was. Yeah. A lot of people did see that. A lot of the sighting don't want to see them, but maybe one person. Those you have to kind of question. But where are you out of mass sighting like that? There's rubber discrimination. Yeah. I think, do you think like the deepest blackest research projects that are going on in regard to propulsion or, you know, any kind of spoofing technology. All that stuff. Where do you think it would be? Do you think it would be berry? Would it be in these private contractors? Or do you think there are any? Because I imagine if there what area 51 was when you were doing it, I imagine now with how every books and movies have been made about it and people talk about 24/7. I imagine they would move that stuff out of there and put it somewhere else. Do you have any idea where they would put it? No, no. That kind of stuff would mostly be done with companies. Yeah, private companies. Pratt Whitney talked about it with engines. They were out here in Florida. And you wouldn't believe the number of explosions that just blew up and that sort of thing as we were developing those engines. Yeah. You know, that was, didn't happen overnight. And the engine itself could take the plane up to 100,000 feet and faster than probably why it would go. Our biggest challenge was heat. The plane job's so hot that we had to set a limit on it. We had use from positive even at some of the edges that you get up too hot over 2200 degrees. But you know, everything had to be invented about that plane. You know, it feels hydraulic. You feel that it got the 600 degrees. The windshield would be five, six hundred degrees. Everything was hot. Right. And that's just limitation of speed even today. So that makes me question a lot of this stuff. This is around that you, that's almost impossible. That would generate meteorite like speeds. Right. The heat of the sun. They would have to figure out if that stuff is physical, they would have had to figure out a new way of propulsion or a new way to apply physics, a new level of physics, right, to where they can bend space time around them. You know, even with X-15, you know, we generate, well, not only that, we generate eight astronauts in X-15. This right out your shepherd and all of them by their initial flights. But with X-15, anytime we went over 50 miles up, well, it got extremely hot, tremendous. And we would lose communication with it as it came through back into the atmosphere. And you'd, the island feel around it with blocked communication. So we'd go through two or three minutes and not be able to communicate with the plane, just like to deal with the space shuttle and all of that. Right. The same thing with X-15. Because the speed is going the temperature. The temperature, the temperatures you got up to. And about the X-15, a lot of years, don't probably know about it much about it. Everything that went to the moon in Apollo, we tested first in the X-15. The flights weren't testing the plane. We were testing equipment that we were sending to the moon. Hydraulic systems and different things. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Those missions were so interesting. I always said that my time on that program was much more interesting than Area 51. Of course, every flight was a nail-biter. Sometimes it worked, like I say, to some time it didn't. We always had another pilot sitting on the console right beside me, but I'm going to have a mission. In case the pilot got in trouble, which happened quite often. And if the cockpit was filled with ammonia or something. And the pilot was up there, you know, I'm scared, you know, what's going on. And the pilot down the ground, his job was to settle down Joe. It happens all the time, remember? And it settles guy down meanwhile, we're frantically trying to figure out what's wrong. We've got to bring this guy back. So every flight, but we were testing everything that went to the moon. We tested it. That was our workhorse. Wow. It was there at 15, so once we wanted to fly it. We drove up in the fringes out of space. One mission I remember we got up at 4 o'clock in the morning. There were one of the meteorite showers that comes around every year. Anyway, our mission was to collect some meteorite dust, we'd put some little things on the wing. And we went up and flew up into the meteorite. I just collected a bit of meteorite dust. That was one of our missions. Interesting. Why was the purpose of it? Just to see what it was. Something out of space. Save it from the Mars or the Moon or wherever it came from. Yeah. Very interesting. So you took this plane up with equipment that was used for the Apollo missions. For example, where would you put the equipment? It would replace something in the plane. It may be something in the hydraulic system or it changed the plane out. And that plane there could we'd launch it. It went over Utah. Yeah. And it would land at Edwards. And you'd time it drove up and it drove up to 150,000 feet or so. Yeah. And it had to slow down and it had been drinking coffee, seven minutes after we launched them. But it would bring them up on B-52. And we always had a dry leg bed in Nevada that would launch them over in case the engine didn't start. He could land on that dry leg bed. So we always launched them over dry leg beds. Yeah. And we had to tell you the story. We had one of our launches that was at Mud Lake. on the Paul. The engine didn't ignite. He landed on the dry leg bed. It was on the Friday. They went out with a flat bed truck loaded up the plane. There's 15. They shouldn't cross the Death Valley on weekends in a 18-wheeler. There's 15 said in my driveway all weekend. And I didn't take a single photograph. We did not take a photograph back then. Whoa. There is photograph. In your driveway all weekend. We lived in Bady, North Las Vegas, where the train station was. We thought nothing of it. It wasn't a big deal with us. Yeah. And now they're back now giving things. And they said, "Don't talk about yourself." One of the crazy things about the technology that was used on the Apollo missions is that one of the things that people don't realize is that the temperature in the sunlight on the moon is like, I believe 250 degrees Fahrenheit. Yes. And in the shadows it's like negative 250 degrees Fahrenheit. And they stayed there for, I don't know, how long. I was a couple days or something like that. Like, how in God's name were they able to do that? Back then that many years ago. You think about it. And what was amazing is the computing systems we had. We got much more my iPhone than we had for the whole program. That's right. The computing power on the iPhone is like, I think it's a million times the computing power in the iPhone than all of the computing power of the Apollo missions. Let me tell you another story, X-15. We had an old mod, we call the Mod-2 radar. That was the same radar that we gave Russia during World War II during the Lynne Leach program. NASA had got to hand me down from the Air Force. It used this radar at the Cape, from that era. We ended up with on edge 15 range. That radar was so old that you pulled out a chassis and the insulation on the wire to crumble down on your console. So you didn't there touch it. And there in a mission, a lot of time we had a scope that would black out. We used the silver scopes for scopes then. And you were the bang on it. You get to come back on. Of course, you didn't lose flight. You know, you're still tracking. Right. But you didn't have visual. So we used an outdated equipment and putting the guys up in the fringes of outer space. It was crazy. But we used an old Mod-2 radar for those missions and slide rules. Right. And also like the footage, right? Like, how did they get those film reels through the Van Allen radiation belts? Undamaged, right? If there's things are so dangerous and you're going out there, you're getting all this footage and you're bringing it back and it's on film, then reals like film gets damaged very easily. It's not you got to protect even going through like airports, TSA, like bringing them through the scanners that can damage film. So no, these things went through the Van Allen radiation belts undamaged. You know, we wore those temperatures out there, protect us from, you know, so we know we've got any radiation. And we never, we never got any to speakable enough to be concerned about. And today, right now, as we speak, they're getting bills passed to give compensation to people who worked at Airfield 1, right? From radiation and the show in them in the propaganda they put out, they show a above atmospheric atomic bomb test going on. They weren't, we didn't have those, they'd already stopped that. But we, but our guys, where they were detonating them in the outer atmosphere. Yeah, they're showing that now to justify them getting compensation. And that wasn't happening then in Airfield 1. So the whole story, but bait what I'm getting to is we worked out there. They had atomic bomb tests while it was working out there. And we had to evacuate. Oh, really? They're in the day of the test. And we come back out as the mushrooms, you know, they run the ground. But every now and then you'd have a cloud from the dust and stuff. And how would the sheriff would stop the traffic on the road till the dust passed through over into Utah? And then let them go. Have you had a free car wash out of it? Oh, wow. And we come back out mid-dust that brushed the dust off of her dust and that kind of stuff. And we'd have a little bit damage every now and then from a test, you know, the minute they didn't have a spirit in their particular. But our guys that worked out there almost all of them lived up into the 90s. I'm one of the younger ones. We never had any problems. We worked out there. And now today, now they did have problems later when they had the burn pits. We didn't have those. But as far as the radiation, we never had any radiation. Right. Well, I mean, the problem with it are the reason that people are so confused by the public, which, you know, they don't have the full picture, right? They're not scientists. We're just people that are trying to read online and watch videos and make them rationally kind of understand this stuff. Is that you can watch videos from now till Friday of astronauts, modern day astronauts talking about how we have to develop, we have to develop more technology and more protection before we can send astronauts into beyond the Van Allen belts. So it's like, why are we having such trouble figuring this problem out now when we didn't back that? You know, it's like, it's very strange, right? Like, there's very few technologies that don't advance exponentially throughout time, right? If you look at, you know, just look at the time between the Civil War and World War II. And we went from shooting muskets to detonating fusion devices. So like, if we went to the moon in the 60s, why do we go backwards? You know, and I get the argument, right? It was the space race. It was just a performative thing. We wanted to beat the, so we wanted to beat the Russians, be the first ones there for to prove that America was superior in all this. But still. You know, I'll people know this in the early days, all of the early days of one, we'd run into periods when we really wouldn't have a project between the mages and the stealth and stuff. So they've been loaners out. We call it the black world. And then loaners out, some of us, to the white world. That was the time at bomb testing for particular, special problems that they were having that they needed our expertise for. But we would go over there and work in the white world. So I got to sit through, I think there's five atomic bomb tests underground tests. Oh, wow. I got to participate in it. And I've got to go back into ground zero that have underground that have a tunnel that had made some most of them. It has some, you know, the drill. But you go back, but go in and set up the experiments that usually it's universities would have a grant to be in different ones. It wasn't just military or that, you know, maybe you might have learned some, but most of the universities couldn't research, maybe for X ratios or who knows, you know, medical. And you had up towards ground zero, you had your experiments that was looking for high temperatures or force. Then for the back, you learned different experiments for different type of radiation. This troubles the different speeds and all that kind of stuff. And they're setting up these stations, you know, with their sensors and whatever. And when they set off the bomb, of course, they had simulations up and they had all these cameras and stuff. And I speed tape recorders to capture the moment that the bomb is building detonated. But we go down and help them set up these experiments in the middle, like one of the tunnel, I mean, a big metal deal cylinder. Anyway, we said these out, after the test went off, we could go back down and pick up some experiments. After the test, the radiation hadn't traveled that far. When the bomb went off, it started detonating sessions of the tunnel so that the heat drove through as far as it needed to from those experiments. But it started blocking off stuff so that you didn't wipe out all the experiments that you were doing. Right. It's just a series of explosions. But other day, we'll go back in at your bomb went off and retrieving the experiments way back at the end of the tunnel. Oh, wow. But we never got any radiation. That's the thing. Yeah, that was another question I had. Like, you see those videos they have of the nuclear bombs going off and blowing out these like fake towns they build, right? You see the houses being shredded? How do those cameras survive? If the house is literally being incinerated. Yeah. I had for a long time, two of the mannequins that we built the Japanese city out there. Yeah. And put mannequins in it cars the driveway. You were there doing that? No, I ended up with two of the mannequins. But your mind had gotten even steered out there. Sometime our other head got those mannequins and he gave them to me and I had those things for for the longest time. And I finally don't made them to the Tommet Tests and Muse. - No way. - And they put them into basement. They've never seen a lot of day. - You should not have to do that. - But they had a woman and a child. - Yeah. - And had AEC stand on the back of it and all that kind of stuff. - No way. - And I wish I hadn't had done it. And these days, a lot of us worked out there, we started trying to find a home for stuff that we had collected from back then. - Yeah. - And we found the museum's worst place in the world to go with it. - Yeah. - And they put it in the basement. - Wow. These mannequins right here, huh? Similar to this? - Yeah. Mine didn't have clothes on. - Okay. - Nude mannequins. - Okay, one belt, belt, headfeet. - Oh, they even put food and pantries. - Oh yeah, we had the whole works. Probably needs to know what would happen with a atomic bomb test. - Right. Do you know how the cameras survived? - No, I don't. That don't. I'm not sure they survived there long. - Right. Was it, without it being shot on film, Steve? Do we know? - Oh yeah. - They didn't have digital back then. - That would have been on film. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the trailers, they had my, Polaroid film, cameras, just rolls at your rows of them. And they've had drills. And they've tried the time, those where they were, that camera would click just as that bomb exploded. So they could get whatever data they were looking for. - Right. - And so I got to see some little drills. - So look, look at that. The camera doesn't even move. - I've been back after those areas many times. - Well, that would have moved a little bit. (laughing) - You're going tours out there today. - Oh really? - Yeah, I've been out there several times. - Wow. - How far away was that city from the actual detonation? - I don't know, I don't know. - Wow. - Oh my God, it was not far, you can see it right there. - You'll see some of those films, you'll see The Tomic Cannon. I think it doesn't shot from The Tomic Cannon right there. When I deployed to Germany with the help of Misery Unit, we went on a move on the event. We ended up protecting, we had a Tomic Cannon in Germany right out of Bamberg. - What's in the Tomic Cannon? - She didn't lose her bomb just like that. I had to aim right at Russia. - Oh. - And my unit moved to that Tomic Cannon to defend it. I mean, assimilated, it's maneuver, you know. I got to see The Tomic Cannon not only at the test site, but they've still got it museum piece. I got to see one in the actual setup in Germany. - Oh wow. - So why were we blowing holes in the atmosphere with nukes? Why were we doing that? That was like Starfish Prime, I believe it was. - Yeah, that was your ECM. - Okay, electromagnetic, EMP. - EMP, I'm sorry, EMP. - Yeah. - Yeah, we were really in the EMP at that time. And that's something we need to figure out. I've written a few books on EMP. I got exposed to some of that. - Oh really? - That is more, we're using today. - Excellent selectively. But you could put them that need an atmospheric bomb or EMP device and wipe out the electricity in the whole United States. - Right. - I mean, it's horrible. And we got that. The Russians did that and we did it both. We set one off in the, I think the Johnson Islands. And it traveled all the way to Hawaii. You knocked out a lot of the electricity in Hawaii. - Oh wow. Yeah, and one of the scariest things about that is, I think we have these interceptor missiles in the United States and Vandenberg and in Alaska. They're supposed to be intercepted. They're supposed to shoot these warheads out of the sky before they hit us. So like, I assume that's gonna cause an EMP if it explodes the warhead before it's detonates. And also like, what is the chance that I think we have 44 of these interceptor missiles? - Yeah, not every warhead would be EMP. - It's like I'm a special. - Oh really? - So you can't just detonate a warhead in the atmosphere and have an APF act. - Yeah, no one, you wouldn't. - Oh, yeah, they're special device. - I thought a nuclear warhead, no matter what, would have a residual EMP effect. - Not to stand, not like a MP device is designed to take out all these electronics. - Right. - Just a regular atomic bomb test would not necessarily do that. It's more force and that sort of thing. But the EMP device, it looks for Nantana. If you got it inside a 10 build in there, something you're okay. It's looking for Nantana and it'll go wherever, it wants it to get seen, it travels everywhere. - Oh wow. - And just a second, if it hit one head over the United States and you got it in our electrical grid, it would go wherever that led to red, even in the old Mexico, Canada, wherever it went. And it wiped out everything. - Wow. - It wiped out your TVs, your cars, if you got the little electronic starter, deals with the old cars with electronic starters, yeah. - Yeah, well no, all cars now have electronic starters. There's only the old ones that don't. - The old ones would survive. - The old ones would survive, right? - Yeah, they did wipe out everything in electronic. - So you can imagine all of a sudden, not only do you don't have lights, but you can't pump remodder into big cities, to wipe out your motors. You flush, you told it, it doesn't refill. - It'd be Mad Max in short order. - It'd be a bad time. - Yeah, very bad time. I mean, we see a little bit of it here when we get hurricanes down here in Florida. It wipes out the power in most of Florida for weeks sometimes. And it's happened here recently. And it's crazy to see how people start to freak out. And panning, you have to go grocery stores or empty. - Yeah, man, you have phones not working. - It's the things you don't even think about in normal everyday life that become like the most sought after things like toilet paper. You would never think about that, but toilet paper is gone. As soon as we get loose power, no one has to have everything. There's no running water. It's crazy. - No more deliveries. - Yeah, that's so your priorities change very fast. And just losing power is not a big deal from a hurricane, but a fucking EMP, that's like that on steroids. I did a three book series on EMP actually four. And that had been so, it's still very, very popular, but mostly it was your preference that people that prepped for that kind of event. I had many, many of them contacted me. He said, "Man, I never thought of that." It'd be things in it that, for example, when everybody started running out of food, it happened my story takes place in Nevada, of course. The first place the raiders go to look for food is the Mormons. So they know the Mormons store of food for such an event. So they actually become the target. - That's why the Mormons are armed to the teeth. - They prepare for, I forget, I think it's a three year supply of food or something like that. - Wow. - And the people would realize that, and that makes them an automatic target. For people starting to death, you know. - Yeah. - I've heard stories. I've had people tell me these stories about like literal, like militarized Mormon militias in Mexico. - Yeah. Mormons are well, they've always been well prepared. - Yeah. - But the preppers, I had a lot of preppers contacted me. Man, I never thought about that. - Mm-hmm. - And I never thought about that happening, or this happened. - Right. Have you heard stories of some of the folks who have like Bob Solis who worked at Malmstrom Air Force Base where they held the intercontinental ballistic missile sites in Northern Montana, I believe it was, where there was multiple incidents where these guys would have their whole entire site shut down and all the nukes would be disarmed in a way that they had never seen before. And it was corresponded with this great big ball of light showing up, this big red ball of light showing up at the front gate on the top surface level with security guards would phone them down. And like we got this some crazy ball of light down here and all of a sudden, systematically every nuke would go offline. - I've heard some about that on the face. Real were, I don't know. - Mm-hmm. Yeah, there was multiple people, multiple Air Force guys who were in charge of those nuclear sites in like Malmstrom, for example. Those guys aren't kooks. Those guys have to be like tip-top level. - Oh yeah. - Psychologically sound individuals. And they recorded this, reported this happening and then like days later being visited by Boeing contractors like asking them questions and all this kind of stuff. - Yeah, I don't know on that. - No. - You know, like the drone stuff that craze about the military and over the military installations to make the big deal out of that. Of course, the military is flying drones. - Right. - Oh, you're talking about the New Jersey drones? - Yeah, I know all that. And you know, it's making big deal out of that. And of course, the military is not going to reveal what they're doing. - Mm-hmm. - That should either be flying drone for a reason or they should be testing anti-drome technology which would require drone technology. in there. Right. So it should be one or the other, but you don't go back to the release of all the, no one's ever going to admit any of that because they can't afford to. Mm-hmm. I mean, the military. Right. Well, that's survival. Mm-hmm. That's your charity. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's just, uh, it's, it's crazy because how do you expect us to, like, how do you expect the public to believe all the shit you're selling us? You know, when we know their secrets, we know, like, their stuff going on, but like, you just still can come out would just come out with bogus lies. Like, at some point, the chickens are going to come home to roost. I feel like, you know, like, you're just going to lose all the trust of the public because, you know, you want to be the, you know, number one military in on the earth. And you're going to do that at the expense of losing the trust of the people. I don't know whether it really would or not, but it was a lot of the people. The media's, that's a big story. The media loves to run with this. That's, you know, that's their new cycle. Mm-hmm. And, and for a good reason, you know, but, um, I'm not sure how to keep his secrets. Of course, of course. Yes. It's a, it's a, it's definitely a double edged sword. Yeah. It does need to keep his secrets, for sure. And, you know, for obviously, and, uh, I'm a good friend of George now. He's one of the best friends. He's great. I'm a huge fan. And we wait to all the time. But, you know, he's really upset that he doesn't tell him what's going on. And I keep telling you, look, if we didn't have a CIA, we might be fucked. I keep telling George, I just, George, they can't tell you that. There's no way they're going to tell you that. Right. And, you know, he said, well, they're hiding something. They're right. They're hiding something. Mm-hmm. They've got to keep it safe. Yeah. No, totally. It's totally true. You know, say, I think it scares me to death because, you know, they're trying to put a reigns on AI. Yeah. But that, that, that, it's out of the box. There's no way you're going to put it back in the bottle. Yeah. It just, no. And, uh, if we try to put, put controls on it in the United States, the challenge from Keyrad Ongo and Russian Keyrad Ongo. Well, it's already getting out of control here. Like, the thing just came out with that new claw that they released where it's like, it's like capable of hacking the NSA. The problem is, like, if people can get their hands on this and figure out how to use it for whatever means possible to wear, like, the government at some level, right? Like the, the institutional level of CIA or NSA or DIA, right? If, if, if some really smart engineers or programmers, some rogue cartel of programmers can get their hands on this stuff and use it to hack the government, that's a huge problem. It's a big problem. It, it is a major problem. But, you know, we were doing, we were getting into AI even a lot out of the area. Oh, wow. We did not have computers, okay? You're talking about the Thomas Integrity Commission had a great computer, which was a supercomputer. Like this was a vacuum tube computer, it's back then. Yeah. We got access to it because we needed to store data. But we had all these systems and we might have a one-of-a-kind mission out there. And we, we couldn't afford to lose any data. We had all these radar that would be tracking their, you know, the systems. So we actually designed our first computer by hand. We, we hired a computer programmer out of, I don't know, it's like about a minute. Anyway, we hired a programmer. He came in and we officially built a computer. And all it could do was, we programmed it. Here's what we expect out of this system. This system, you should see this. Yeah. And then if you didn't see that, it had a normally, it was alertness. So you might say it was AI system. It was looking for something that should be normal and was able to tell us if it wasn't normal. Oh, interesting. So we should fix it and not lose that data when we had the mission. Wow. That's incredible. So that was our, you know, it was very primitive. But we, we designed our first AI system. Yeah. The future of this kind of stuff is going to be very frightening. I have a feeling it's going to be, it's going to be so sci-fi that it's going to be almost hard to comprehend for most folks. Even back in Apollo, we could send a system to the moon without, could have, without a man. Right. And done everything that we did. Exactly. The only reason we put a man in it. The flex was funding. You couldn't get funding. You couldn't get money out of, out of Congress, unless you put a man in it. And really, if you put a man in it, you had to put a air conditioner in it. You had to put a window in it. We could have, we were already flying planes out of NASA at Dryden, unmanned planes in the late sixties. You know, we were already that already. I thought the reason we put the man in the moon was because we wanted to be able to, we were racing to be the first person to put a man in it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were. And that was part of it. And astronauts, you know, the, the, the pray room around all over the country. Yeah. But we could have done it without astronauts. Right. And it would have been much more efficient. That's more efficient, much quicker, which is another argument, I believe, to why we haven't gone, why humans haven't been back to the moon since. Right. Because that was a one time sort of performative thing to get humans there. But it's a waste of money. And it's a, it's a two risky to keep sending human beings out there. You don't need to see anything. You can get everything down with robots. You do your time drones at your robots. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. 100%. That's, that's the future. Yeah. Well, uh, man, this has been a fascinating conversation, man. Thank you for doing this. It's been fun. Tell me more about your books. Where can people find your books, read your books? Their own Amazon. I got some with publishers, but the everything is on Amazon. Okay. I just grew my name. Is this the latest one? That's the latest one that just came out this month. Secret skies inside Area 51's Soviet MIG exploitation. This thing, it's a big boy right here. Well, 500 pages. Yeah, it's full of photographs and stuff. And the station D, Area 51 was the first one that was published by Becker House, same, same publishers of that one. Okay. And it's pretty well worldwide. We didn't get a good start on it. COVID happened just as we came out with it. And we had canceled our premier and all that kind of stuff. I don't know. But it's a much bigger, it's a large paperback book. Okay. But it's got a lot more, this one's just about the MIG programs. Okay. But the other one was why we had an area, it's the one, why did the CIA get chosen over the Air Force? It tells about the battles we had with the Air Force. I mean, we had some horrible battles for the Air Force, so anything flying should have been wearing blue suit. Right. And Air Force fought the NASA too. Charlie Eggers was a friend of mine, but we had a lot of battles. If you were an Air Force, you shouldn't be flying. So we had a lot of issues, but we also had a lot of issues inside the CIA, so there was a co-op, operations type organizations flying that stuff. All of a sudden here comes sides of technology. And I'm really competing with them for office space, money, and they didn't want us. But Air Force 1, with the genesis of the director of science and technology, that's what started. The director of science and technology has started Air Force 1. So they realized we're on to something, we're into electronics, we're in the radar, and aerial reconnaissance, and that sort of stuff. So we had a lot of battles inside of CIA over dominance of the aerial reconnaissance. For example, we're getting our film developed. We took priority over everyone else. We had our film developed, but then in the Air Force start slide, and they wanted to use the same film filters. Well, they wanted their instantly because they got a mission going on. They didn't even know right now. We weren't in that big a hurry, so we were given intelligence, different types of human intelligence, and that's the right thing. But they were operational. So we had a lot of battles over who controlled the film development and stuff like that. Yeah, it's also very interesting. I learned recently that even the newest telescopes that NASA uses are not NASA, but like the biggest telescopes that we have that can explore deep space and explore this solar system. All of the images taken by those big telescopes has to be cleared through the Pentagon before they can be released into the public. I don't know. That's crazy. When they take our photographs out at the agency, they have to be cleared before they release them to us. It's just us standing there in the in the emblem, you know. Right, right. But something just basic like this, just for scientific research. You know, I'd say where they would want to get those cleared. Yeah. I don't know why but Competition really spaces are niche frontier. Mm-hmm. You know, yeah That's face sidelines, you know our space force No feeling what they're good up there. Yeah No talent. No talent. Well, thanks again, man. I will link all your books below Yeah, just Google mate just TV Barnes. Yeah, perfect. All right. Well, it was pleasure. I appreciate I really appreciate your time - Muffa. - All right. - Have fun. - Good night, everyone.