#409 - "Darker Than Satan" Demonologist on What Demons Actually Are | Nathan Gillis

Verustin pyöräilyvää teitä valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Mielestäni parasta Shopify saan se, että voimme harjoittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknistä osaamista. Voimme hallinnoida yrityksen taustajaristeelle mien ja front-endia sekä myydä verkossa, vaivatta. Jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi mielestäni itse polkupyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu Shopify-sa. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu "Shopify Piste.com" sivustolla. [Käiväilyvää] Allright, Nathaniel Gillis. Pleasure to meet you, brother. Ja, myöhemmin. My honor. It's great to be on your show Big Fan. Been a fan for a long time, and it's surreal. Thank you, man. Yeah, your work is fascinating. So, what the hell is a demonologist? I go into an all-investigations, and I try to understand the pathology of what a demon is. So, I didn't want to take the academic route, because if you do take that route, they're going to convince you of their own religious tradition. And what I realized early on was I have what I've been told a demon has, and then I go into an all-investigations, and I'm like, "Mm, there's a mismatch there." And so, I wanted to stay true to the data and not the dog. Are you religious? Yeah, I am. Are you Satanist? No. No, no, not at all, man, not at all. I have a fascination with this stuff. You know, like I grew up in a haunted house, and I've just been fascinated with this kind of research for whatever reason. You grew up in a haunted house. Yeah, yeah. What was that like? Terrifying. And I was eight years old. My parents had purchased the home, and we just got in there, and I saw a full-bodied apparition of a little girl underneath my bed, or what would we come up with? Yeah. So, originally, we took a tour of the home, and so my dad's like, "All right, son, this is going to be your future room if we end up putting an offer." So, I get in there, and I remember feeling watched. I remember smelling sulfur, or some kind of, yeah, ozone or something. I didn't, there was nothing in the room, it was just a bed there. That's the only thing they staged the home with. It was just a bed. So, I remember being in the room, and I thought to myself, "I feel watched. I smell something." It's like, man, you'll see this is common in the research, where it's like a riding, or decomposing organic matter, and yet there's nothing in the room at all. And so, I felt compelled to get on my hand to knees and look underneath the bed, and there was a little girl, about eight years old, long black hair, with a dress that looked have been made during the turn of the century. Whoa. And at first blush, I thought she belonged in the neighborhood, right? I'm a kid, I'm eight years old, I had no a firm of reference for hauntings, or demons, or anything like that. And so, I just remember telling my parents, like, "Hey, we need to tell spotty in the neighborhood, because there's a little girl that snuck in." I thought she just belonged in the area, she didn't. Once we finally moved into that house, I realized, after playing with all the kids there, getting to know everybody, yeah, she didn't exist. She was always there, every time you looked, at least that one time. And that's another fascinating pathology. When you saw her that one time, was she looking at you, moving, or was it just looking at a dead body? No, she looked like I was looking at you or something, right, like literally. Did you try talking to her? No, none at all. What happened was, as soon as I looked up at her, down on her brother, she shimmied her body all the way up to the wall itself, and then I laughed, and I was like, "I'm not, you know, so it was very strange." Whoa. Yeah, it was very strange. Was there any other inner, other type of things that you saw in that house? Absolutely. So, that's what I realized, once I got into that home and settled down in the middle of the night, I would hear something displacing its weight in the living room. We had wooden floors, and so you could imagine like a full grown man with boots on, just displacing its weight, and then would walk into my room, and then I could just feel this malevolence manifesting. And so, it evolved. So, I never saw the archetype or manifestation of the little girl anymore. Now it was like a black cloud that would hover in the corner of the room sometimes. So, what's fascinating about that is, as I'm going through that, and constantly feeling watched, I mean, it would follow me when I would go to like sleepovers and play gold nine stuff, you know, as I'm a 90s kid, hang out my buds, and yeah, you could hear the same manifestations and weird stuff. My point being is, at the same time, I'm going to my local church, and really struggling because I'm going to like Sunday school teachers and youth pastors and trying to ask them, okay, like what's going on with me at the house? Because whatever I'm dealing with, does it sound anything like what you're telling me it is? It wasn't like horns and hooves, it was more like an energy field or a parasitic presence that would project terror into me, and then the more fearful I became of it, the weaker I became, and so that's why my colleagues and I in the field believe that at least some of these entities are parasitic and they just feed. It's very strange. So, how did you become more educated in this over the time? And like what, you know, there's a huge gap in understanding, or like there's lots of misconceptions of what demons are, you know, whether you're looking at it from a Christian or a Catholic context or looking at it from like a strictly psychological context, you know, the idea of demons exists in multiple domains, from art to psychology, religion, whatever, you name it, what is your like high level view on like what demons are? So, there are various traditions, and the tradition I grew up hearing about was the Annathlete lore, right? So, it's a disembodied spirit of Genesis 6 where an angel copulates with a woman and they create this half human, half angel, entity, and then when that body dies, the consciousness exists in a post-biological state. So that was some of the church fathers theology where they believe these were demons. They're disembodied consciousness. What I've come to learn is that I do not subscribe to the Catholic version of demons at all. If you go into various traditions all around the world, you'll see that a lot of these beings have their own belief systems. They have their own language preferences. Not only that, but there's a significant issue with the way they procreate. If it is, in fact, a disembodied entity, how can it insinuate a woman with a fetus? It's a biological being. Not only that, but if you're going to be incubated by literature, which for those who don't know, because I didn't either, you're dealing with an entity that would copulate with a woman, but then would leave secretions and sigils as if it was a practitioner. And so early on in demonology, there was this argument, especially with the church fathers, where it was like, okay, number one, we got a significant issue here, because if they are just disembodied spirits of Nephilim, how can they procreate? In addition to that, why are they leaving sigils? I mean, that's like chaos, magic, by the way, where you're combining sigils with secretions. And so what's a sigil? A sigil is essentially, there's two traditions there. A sigil is essentially the symbolic signature of an entity. So let's say if I was a demon and I visited somebody and I would carve my sigil into them, that's me, almost like branding, you've got it. Now Peter J. Carroll and another cultist name, Austin Austin Spair, used sigils differently as practitioners, where they would write it down on a piece of paper, mentally project into their own mind, memorize it, and project intention into it, and then forget about it, and hopefully that sigil will create an intended outcome. The question though, and this is something I've wrested with with my own research, because there's no real model that explains that, is number one, what would combine sigils with secretions with an intention of procreation? The only explanation I found is that it would be the red-right from Peter J. Carroll's research, where you have a practitioner who is trying to replicate his own consciousness and the only way to do that is to combine sigils and secretions and then possess the fetus that will be in the woman. Now that is called the red-right, that first originated by an anthropologist called James Frazier, and the idea and antiquity was that a mortally wounded soldier would dispossess his own body and possess someone else, so that his body dies, but his post-biological consciousness still exists. So within both of those substrates, I believe we're dealing with something that is self-replicating itself, itself replicated. That's a lot. What is the ink you buy? That is an entity explicitly that appears to a woman in the image of a man. OK. And I've had cases like that all the way from here to India where an entity will be, it'll be a shadow figure to the left of the side of the vision. And then when the individual lays eyes on them, it looks like the husband. And so there's a unique pathology that I can get into here. But that's essentially what it is. An entity that appears to a woman in the image of a husband. So I've had cases where it's deceased boyfriends, deceased husbands. I've had cases where the individuals put in like a dream state. And very bad thing, very dark things happen. And then when that entity lets go of the consciousness of that person, that's when they realize my husband's been next to me asleep the whole time. So that's what my research has centered around is understanding what I call these interface events. When we as a species come in contact with these beings, what happens? Why does it happen that way? And more or less, I'm looking for the pathology. People will say, OK, Nathaniel, you believe their horns and hugs. Not really. I believe there's something deeper and dark are going on here. Where does the idea of horns and hooves and just the sulfur smell and this whole narrative that is woven throughout the Bible in biblical literature? Where does that come from? So one of them is a description of hell where allegedly these beings come from and it's sulfur. So they smell like they're in local environment. That's one explanation. The idea though that they smell like sulfur, I believe it's ozone. I believe they're affecting the local environment. And so some of the research my colleagues Steve Maronay are doing now is looking at the scientific aspect of it. Because it's possible that what's happened in antiquity with our ancestors is they're doing their best to explain this, right? They don't have the scientific method. The best they could do is give us some kind of actual data descriptions. But the deeper I get into this, the more I realize that there is some kind of technology present. And then it's not either over. It's not spiritism or technology. Whatever we're dealing with seems to have combined both of them, right? Which is the Jack Parsons model. This is the the cross over between Paranormal and like the UFO. Absolutely. And I think that's where the research needs to be because I think that what's happened here lately is that we're starting to realize that the old answers, they're not actionable anymore. They don't work. And so if anything is my goal as a researcher is I might not have all the right answers. Maybe I have the right questions or a more correct question to ask. And so that's why my model evolved it and not just believing in spirits, but believing in some kind of merging of matter and memory, where it's almost like techno mancy in a sense. And that's where I think we are with the question. It's not just okay. It's euphology or ontology, right? We're no longer looking at those fields as if they're separate fields of research. Even James Lekatsky in his book Future Visions came out and said, well, let's start looking at euphology and if I'm interviewing these witnesses, I realized very, very early on that we weren't dealing with strictly euphology. We're dealing with hauntings as well. And that a lot of these witnesses of UAPs were going home to what I grew up with. Believe it or not, disembodied voices, shadow figures, hauntings. And so what I'm realizing now is that yeah, we've compartmentalized this intelligence when it seems to be according to the data, not the dog of the data, that we're dealing with the singular intelligence that's operating underneath a paranormal umbrella, not either or not UFOs or ghosts. It's something larger and much more in tune with each other. Now, that makes me immediately think of that, I'm sure you've talked about this before, the Virginia, Brazil case where the women, the two girls, the schoolgirls were walking home and they saw this creature that looked like a demon smell like sulfur had red eyes, had the little horns and it had clothing feet. And when I had Diana Pusolka in here, she says she's like, that's the description of a demon from the Bible. She's like smelled like sulfur, had the clothing feet, had the red eyes. And it also, it ended up killing that guy, Marco Sharisi, was one of the cops that grabbed him through the back of a cop car. I don't know what kind of a psycho would do that, but he did that. And kept it like held it in the back of the cop car when they took it to the hospital. And then some of the people that worked at the hospital that it was brought to in Brazil said the hospital smelled like sulfur for weeks afterwards. What did you, what did you take on all that stuff? So let's get back to your earlier question. Uh, that's pan. Pan. Yeah, so he was a huge pan. Yeah, that's where the horns and hooves legend came from. Pull up, pull up pan. Let's get some imagery. Yeah. So that's again, that's where the legend came from, that these are all horns and hooves, but that was a later tradition. Uh-huh. The early year's tradition is we're dealing with disembodied consciousness. So here you're looking at a deity. There we go, head and clothing feet. So that's where that legend originated. Uh-huh. Now here's the question. How many times has that image been witnessed in demonology? The cases are very scant. Even within Catholic exorcisms and manifestations, what in many cases were witnessing is some kind of translucent being that has its own energy field. And yeah, so this is where we have to separate the data from the dogma. Okay. And I had to do that early on because I went into my, my investigations like Gung Ho, right? I have a good handle on this thing. I know what I'm going to experience that absolutely not. And so a lot of these things that are being classified as demons are evidently appeared to be something entirely different. Now that they don't exist, it's just they were demonized throughout history and people just kind of bought into that idea, but that's pan. And so where I come in as a researcher, I say, okay, but how many times has that been witnessed? When you say that's pan, what you're saying is the idea of the hooves and the image of pan, that's where we get the idea of like the devil with the tail. I'm not in my 20s anymore. And although you can do tons of work to improve your diet and your workout routines, when you start to get into your mid to late 30s, you tend to notice a drop in energy and motivation. And you also should not be relying on stimulants, drugs or unnatural additives. I want my body to be working the way it's supposed to, which is what led me to Marsman. 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So do you think that whatever that being was that all those people witnessed in Virginia, Brazil was the same thing people were witnessing in antiquity? I think so. Now, I'm very fascinated by that case study. Stephen, I had Roni Vernay on our show a while ago. Awesome researcher. Really cool guy. Be curious thing though, and this is another misnomer in the field, is that if you conjure something, which is what they, what, you know, there are some researchers believe they did, and I believe they did, that it's just going to be some kind of getting translucent being. But if you look at Roni's research, this is fascinating, is that Zay Gomez had created like a cavern in the earth to perform his rituals. And when Roni Vernay went there and investigated, he's talking to the locals and they said, okay, there's two things that happen. Number one, we had an induct entirely different interpretation of what occurred until you followed just came. And then everything that we told them was kind of shifted into, okay, there are more along the lines of extraterrestrials. Now, according to what I've been told is that Zay Gomez performed his rituals and then from out of the earth, which is where he was performing his rituals, right? And he carved like a little laboratory in the earth, out of the earth emerged a cloud, a mist, which is something that we see often in ritual magic, and from that emerged physical beings. So there is this kind of materialist argument that are all conjured entities non-physical. That may not be true at all. I think that's a fascinating data point. If they're non-physical, where are they? Where are they when they're not when we're not looking at them? So I am more along the lines of the ultra-terrestrial model, okay? So I do not believe we're dealing with extraterrestrials. The evidence I've collected, it leads me to believe that we're dealing with something that's here, right here. And that at times, it's because they look like they evolved here, right? Like pretty much by Petele, eyes in front of the heads, this air. Yeah, but it's, and this is one of the more difficult nuances in the research, it's like they're present but absent from. So there's a late researcher named Paul Eno is a very fascinating guy, but he had this idea of the phenomenon where you would have basically two circles, and they would both be evolving, and then at times they would touch. And in that moment, you have a substrate or a meeting to where these entities could climb into our reality, because we share that space with them for that fleeting moment. This gets back into Jopvalet's case studies where he had one instance, this is fascinating, where a UAP comes crashing through a tree line, and yet none of the branches were disturbed. They're witnessing it, but it's going through the branches, and then it lands into a patch of grass, which is disturbed. You can see there's landing gear, there's imprints, there's disturbance in the grass pattern, and so the idea that I'm leaning on here is that we share certain parts of reality with them, and those parts of reality that we share are where there is disturbance, where you have physical evidence. But that would also explain why that tree line was not disturbed itself, why? Because it doesn't exist for them. And so we do share certain spaces. Now, the point of conjuring would be to create a space for them to inhabit, to where it actually cuts through both of them, to where literally I have created a sacred space for you that we will share. It's not designed to devolve together until we merge, I'm creating a moment emerging to where you can incarnate as a dimension. So that's one of the ideas is that it doesn't exist for them. Now we can to Betty Lucas' case studies, there's an abductee where the same phenomenon occurred, where she's just in her in her kitchen with her family, and these beings walked right through the door, didn't open it, walked right through, and yet when she handed them an object, they could hold it. So that aspect of sharing certain spaces with them, it also occurs in hauntings. I've seen, my archive, my videos, of like a shadow figure who walked through a hallway, open up the door of a room, walked the closet completely. So they're, again, it points to this sharing of reality. And I think that some people would confuse that with interdimensionality, right? Well, that's just interdimensional, to a degree. But it seems like some things exist in our reality for them, and we share that space and some things just simply do not. And that's where I'm at. Yeah, you know, we could have a completely different map of reality than whatever these things are. You know, like we could look at the world in the universe and physics a completely different way, like the way we fit stuff into our minds and compartmentalized stuff and process and rationalized stuff could be just completely alien, like no pun intended, to whatever some other entity that we're not aware of that could be on some higher, higher plane of existence to us does. So we just may not have the, we may not, we may not have the right words of the right language to be able to explain what this stuff is. Exactly. And for the longest time, we were trapped, even using the word interdimensional, that may be a one dimensional way of explaining what this actually is, you know? And when that is codified, right? Where people say, well, if you don't use the term interdimensional, or you're wrong, it's like, no, we literally, I mean, I, we don't really know what's going on here. We, all we have throughout history are witnesses that are using their own terminology and vernacular to describe something that could be unaffable. We don't have the terms. And in many ways, that's what I've been trying to do with my own research is I've kept, I'm running into things where I don't have the vocabulary to articulate what they are, even with the incubus. I mean, okay, we go to father's ministry of amino. He's encountering these demons and their enemies. And the church is like investigating what they are, and they were trying to charge these women. This is, this is demonic, by the way, right? Charge them for some kind of sin. And they're like, well, okay, was it a beast? Because they're looking right? If it is, it's beast reality. And she's like, I have no idea what it was. We have no idea what it was. So what we're looking at though, it seems to be like intelligence is that transcend every known model of the phenomenon. And so the best move I've been able to do along with Steve Mary is where we've kind of realized that we've compartmentalized this thing over and over and over again to where we have our own little boxes, our own fields of research, our own clicks. And yet the phenomenon doesn't play by those rules. What have you noticed, or with all the people that you've talked to, and all of the stuff that you've read and learned, have you noticed or seen a pattern in the specific type of people that experienced this stuff, whether it be paranormal or UFO stuff? I, there is a pattern. Usually it comes to people when they're really young. So when it showed up in my life, I was eight years old. My buddy Paul St. Clair, same thing, same thing with Steve Mera. And we don't know why. Now there is a theory. And this is, again, we're dealing with an entirely different subject, but it's like they wanted us to be in the field as researchers. So one faction is like dark, I guess, they were simplified. The other ones lie in, they initiated us in the field somehow. That's, it's a ridiculous notion, by the way. I don't buy it. But initiated you into the field. Yes. You were young. Yes. They wanted us, something wanted us to notice the black cat and the matrix and to investigate it. The black cat and the matrix. What do you mean by that? So my perspective with the paranormal is that we only know about it because it seems to be a glitch. When I was a kid, that, that black cloud on my room should not have existed. Right. And yet it did. It's a lot like Neo being initiated by virtue of them saying, hey, you notice that there's another black cat. It doesn't fit. It should not fit. And so then Neo is a day job. Yeah. So what is that exactly? So that's one theory. Now, here's some more of the malevolent aspects of the phenomenon that people are being taken from a young age and experimented on by entities. And I've had cases where it'll be a 55 year old woman. And she's still being taken and we're doing an investigation. And she may be going to take her at eight years old. Yeah. So the question, I guess the jury still on what's actually going on there. Why? But in terms of researchers, that's one theory I lean into is that there's someone or something that wants us to research this phenomenon, wants us to understand. And perhaps it is an intelligence that's wanting us to understand reality at a deeper level. I don't know. Or is there something just inherent in kids and young kids that don't have a fully like rigidized framework of reality? You know, like they haven't been fully indoctrinated into the modern world. They're still more open. And they're they may even have like a deeper sense. Like they're their their sensory abilities haven't aren't they aren't rigid yet. You know, they they have like there's some people that have speculated or I think that yeah, there's obviously no proof of it. But like people speculate that, you know, when you're young that you you may have even more of a intuitive way of communicating or getting knowledge or understanding because you don't have the ability to really speak yet, you know, when you don't have the language yet, you rely on other sorts of cues. And you know, you could discern that as being some sort of an intuition or something like that. Yes. And before, you know, people also say that like before the we even had the written word that maybe people communicated this way. Today's episode is brought to you by Quo spelled Q-U-O. The business communication system that was built so you never miss a call miss calls and slow follow ups are silent killers and businesses lose momentum without even realizing it. Quo fixes that by letting your whole team handle calls and texts from one shared number. 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One thing I could tell you though and this gets back into my research is that the phenomenon is highly deceptive. Yeah. Highly highly deceptive. And it evolves according to our where to sub it and it evolves in order to evade. So one of my earliest cases of abduction included adult woman who this is one of those individuals that was taken first when she was a young girl. Just to show everybody how deceptive the phenomenon is when they begin to take her, they would just show up in a room at night time. as her favorite cartoon characters. That was the interface. It chose to interact with her. So she's eight years old, eight or nine years old. And she's like, you know what a fangil? I didn't understand like why is my favorite cartoon character taking me out of my room at night? Wow. It's really wild stuff. And so the fascinating part about this is now we're getting into the learning matrix in my field where later on she said she wasn't abducted for like two or three years. But that was when she appeared. But she she shot up and height. You know, she's she's stopped watching cartoons. She got into literature. You know, she matured and she's like, and then one night she feels this intelligent electricity manifesting in her room. And she's all walled up. She's like, they're here. What do I do? And then here comes that little short cartoon character. Now here's what's fascinating is she's like, now I'm like a foot taller than them. And I'm realizing there's this is stupid. There's no way you're a cartoon character. Now here's something that's demonstrative of the pathology is that when that took place, that in a day, its eyes got big, looked right into her eyes. And she said, Nathaniel, the only way I could explain this is that it was measuring my belief in its mask. Do you believe I am who I am appearing to you as? And this is very now we're getting to the real deep stuff here, buddy. And that's when she realized like there's something beyond just an entity here. Because what it was doing was measuring how much, okay, it's at 60%. I can work with that a little bit. Whereas at 10, because if it's 10, what it does, and then it's now I got a manifest of something else to you. You don't believe in the image. And so there is this learning matrix that the interface pulls from. And we've seen that, I mean, even with Ted Rice's case where his grandmother, him were abducted. And one of the entities appeared as the grandfather. The problem is that his grandfather had been dead for a long time. And so what I'm realizing in the field is that what we are seeing may be the least reliable way to interpret the phenomenon. Because again, well, that's pan. Well, that's just a demon. Well, hold on a minute. Now we have to retroactively track where that originated. So my point is what this phenomenon does is it hijacks consciousness in such a way that when we're experiencing it, we're being experienced by it and it's mapping us out. Can I go into this for a second? Yeah, yeah. All right. So when you get into even the Skywatcher, they made a statement that really caught my ear. And they said that we're having a hard time understanding what we're observing when we're observing it. Now that comes from this concept with the imperial psychology that one of the one of these case studies originated with the Orbock where they were in a haunted house and they kept seeing a recurring apparition floating on by. It was a lady in white. And so they had multiple witnesses in the house that saw it. His investigated team saw it. And they said, well, the best thing we can do to capture data is we're going to put a camera on it. And so what happened, it changed my life or at least my research entirely. Because I'm like, oh my god, it's a game changer. So they with their eyes, they're perceiving an apparition. Multiple people, multiple people. But on camera, it was just a ball of light. So what they concluded is that this ball of light, we're calling plasmoids in the field, when was this? This was in the in the 90s. I believe 90s. Yeah. Okay. Lloyd Orbock's the researcher people that want to go look at our box. Absolutely. He's a personal psychologist. Point being though is they saw an apparition with their eyes and she's floating on by. But what they captured on camera was completely inconsistent with what they rendered by looking at it. Point is that not everything we're seeing is real. They may be a physiological construct and apparition produced by these balls of light. Now another case study. Now what happened? What happened when they went back and watched the footage? Did they see the ball of light or did they see the woman? They saw the ball of light. No apparition. Here's why. Because the camera cannot believe. There's no consciousness to hijack Danny. Wow. We get real passionate now, man. We got into the real research, buddy. Yes. There's no consciousness to hijack with the camera. There's no archetype. Again, so my point though is even with Dr. Barry Taf's case study of San Pedro Haunting, same phenomenon where they're cornering this corpuscular ball of light. Not small balls of light, but like basketball size. They have photographs of this. They're self-illuminating. They're on the ceiling or near the ceiling. They're near the ground. And they finally cornered one of these things in a room. He's got his research team with him and they're just looking and observing this orb. And out of nowhere, the orb projects half of an apparition of a man. And it's animated. And it's looking at them eye to eye and observing the room. When that happened, his research team fainted and he said I could hear them hit the ground. So what we're dealing with the man would be to know just some, you know, projection Elrond Hubbard probably was, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That would freak me out. So my point though is this is part of what I call the diversification method of the phenomenon. Now here's the problem. In history, we lacked the scientific method to capture the pre-manifestation, right? We never, okay, all we saw were apparitions. We did not know that they were being projected by an orb until we got a camera on it. And so here's the problem. And I've said this in other lectures where if all we knew throughout history was the physiological construct of the phenomenon it created it, then we have mythologized its mask and we may have never really truly seen again that orb that was present. Now that same phenomenon is occurring in the CE5 movement where they see the orbs and then they manifest as diverse. Yes. Just recently at a conference, contact in the desert. There was a group of CE5 practitioners. They perform the process. CE5 is Stephen Greer's deal. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. And what's so fascinating about this, and I kind of sat on this for a while because I knew what was happening. At least I thought I knew, right? Where they're observing these, these orbs. And out of nowhere, you see faces and you see forms emerging from them and then people left doing what we've done in the field right for the last hundred years was saying, oh my goodness, look at the form. It's producing their alien beings. When really it was these balls of like these plasmoids diversifying themselves, creating and projecting a physiological construct that if we, right, if all we had were the apparitions, we wouldn't really have, you know, the orb. We didn't have the orb until we actually put a camera on it. Right. So we had mythologized the mask. But I think that's really, it's a dangerous point when we sit there and say, okay, this is fascinating too. Did you say we mythologized the mask? Yes. We go around saying, oh my god, think about the implications. Well, I saw an apparition of my dear Aunt Edna. All right. It's not her. It could be something different. Now, let's go back to the San Pedro haunting because this is a very, very profound point here. This really did change my game. At least my research was that there is no difference between these lights and haunted houses and these lights in the skies orbs. Altitude does not change their ability to project. So what are these orbs projecting in the sky is my question that we have taken as actual craft just like we've taken them as actual apparitions and making sense. Yeah. Yeah. There's no difference. It's just altitude. Right. Just altitude. That's where I'm at. Yeah. The weird thing is when you get into like the nuts and bolts crashes like the one in Virginia and obviously Roswell and the tick-tock stuff the pilots were seeing like I think people are conflating all this stuff and because we don't understand it we're trying to put it all in the same boat. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think we are in and I'm not okay. I'm not saying I disagree with the nuts and bolts aspect. I think the nuts and bolts stuff is probably ours. A lot of it is matter of fact my colleague Steve Mary's lecture in England years and years and years ago when Jeff Renn's had his website like we're talking like probably 06 05 and Steve had published. A video that he took of something in England, it was like a balloon of some sort. And out of nowhere, a think tank here in the States published it as a form of disclosure, as an authentic UAP, and Steve had to email them and say, guys, we both know, I took the video, you're pushing it as some kind of extraterrestrial presence. So do I believe there's some kind of sight out present? I do, not that again, not that I discount the existence of nuts and bolts phenomena. But let's go back to Richard Banderick. And I know people have their qualms with him. Richard Banderick is now an aerospace CEO. But 40 years ago, he was contracted with our federal government to go out to gifting fields. Gifting fields? Yeah. What's a gifting field? Where the phenomenon will gift our species technology, like nanotechnology, metamaterials. So they would give him coordinates, and he would go out with, I don't know how many people, and they would collect metamaterials, given to us, given to us, by these beings. The problem though, and it's so fascinating, he said, you know, he goes, when we would find it, we'd confirm the location, we would get it in our hands, and it would look like it's metal. His testimony is astounding, he said, but then within 10 to 15 seconds, it would almost dissolve and do a dust, and you can blow it away in the wind. His conclusion, though, was startling, because somebody asked him, like, what did you think about all this? He's like, we came to the conclusion that we were being manipulated by something that wanted to appear to be giving us technology, but it wasn't technology at all. Whoa. Right. There are aspects of the research that need to be addressed, but I get, I don't want to, I'm not going to say I'm anti-nots and bolts, yeah, I think the craziest thing about all this stuff is, like I said earlier, we have those stories, we have like the pilot tick tax stories, we have planes seeing things in the sky, we have orbs, we have ghosts, we have demons, we have, whatever you want to call it, and we're trying to put it all together, fit it all together into one puzzle, you know, it's like, well, what about this? This kind of, like, doesn't make sense, like, how do you reconcile that? How do you reconcile, you know, an orb, making yourself look like a woman, and communicating with you telepathically with, you know, some fucking metal tick-tack that's moving around and going under the water, and that we allegedly have, and we allegedly, also, and, you know, we allegedly captured some of these beings and we have them in government custody, like, what? I'm not sure. I'm really not sure about that. Well, that's what the government's saying now that we have seven different species of these things. And like, I mean, it's really comforting that James Clapper is the head of all this, so we know it's, we know it's true. It's really encouraging. Yeah. I don't know about all that, honestly, I, because there are certain data points that are inconsistent with my research and the research of my colleague, not that, like, we're experts in gods on this, you know, again, we're just researchers, but there are inconsistencies where it's just, like, that's demonstrably untrue. The problem is is that the compartmentalization has, has really bit our demise in some way. So my point is there are some instances where one field has a question that the other field has an answer for. So for instance, my colleague, Steve Marra has had cases of a ports, an a port for those who didn't know, because I didn't know either, is essentially like this coffee mug, okay? Where let's say I would even purchase this coffee mug, but it would just show up in my house, and Steve's had cases like that where the phenomenon will materialize objects into a local environment, and the family didn't buy it. And so they're like, okay, where did this come from? Even more than that, and this is where we get into the pathology is where the phenomenon would take things from a home, let's say I did buy the coffee mug, it would take that away, it would go missing for months, and then I would wake up one day and it's back. Those Steve's had cases like that where one family they had a coffee mug that went missing and they looked for it for everywhere. Out of nowhere, it's back on the table, right? And so what Steve did is he realized that I guess they purchased the coffee mug from like a Costco or something, it came in another box with other coffee mugs that were made from the same people, all that, and same makeup. What they did is he tested the coffee mug that was replaced, that manifested against the others, and he realized that there was a different isotopic ratio in the coffee mug that manifested than the other coffee mugs that it was allegedly purchased with. So the idea is one theory was that the isotopic ratio, it's different, is the result of it dematerializing and then rematerializing. Another theory is that's not the original coffee mug. The phenomenon took the real one, replaced it with another one that looks like it, it's a semulent. So then what he and very Fitzgerald did is they had- Is demons everything better to do? Kind of. Fuck with your coffee mug. I know, right? Yeah, it's kind of dumb. Now, so they realized that what was happening is that they would see these reports and they would take them out of the homes as an experiment, like, okay, you didn't buy this, no, I don't even know where it came from. We were going to move from house. When they did, the paranormal activity would go down to almost nothing. And so the idea now is that a lot of these reports are quantum anchors, where the phenomenon will attach itself to them, manifest them into this dimension, and now it's almost like a portal. And I hate the word portal, but that's what it appears to be. So attach themselves to the people, attach itself to the object- To the object. To the object. Yeah. Okay, I see. Quantum anchors. Now, he's had cases where one individual, her pet died and so she had accruemated, put it in a little small urn, that urn went missing, couldn't find it. So then what happened is she went and got another urn, put the ashes in that urn because she still had some leftover. And then years later, she's remodeling the house and found the original urn inside of the wall. So what this appears to be, again, is that these beings, whatever they are, they can create objects in our dimension that do not belong here. They look the part, but they're that black cat in the matrix. Now that's in parapsychology. But even in demonology, the Vatican has cases, Gabriel Morth has these cases as well, where when these beings, were being exercised for the demoniac, they will begin to regurgitate from the cavity of that person, objects they never ingested, screws, coins, whatever is small enough. Yeah. Here's what's fascinating. The Vatican, and even Malachai Martin talks about this, where they will collect these objects. The problem is, and it's not one of the problems, more like a solution, is that the phenomenon is also attached to those apports as well. So what the Vatican does, and what these Catholic scientists do is they will take those objects, place them in a sacred space, a far away from humans, because they know the phenomenon is attached to them. It's the same thing with the ports and ontology, where the phenomenon, when it doesn't want to be vacated, it will replicate something in a house, attach itself to that simulant, in the family will never know the difference. He had a case study of a husband and a wife that were in a verbal disagreement. And the husband looks down, and he sees this figurine that's moving, just slowly moving. So he grabs it in a fit of rage, and he throws it out the front door, shatters on the driveway. And walks back in, that figurine is right back on that table. He found a simulant. And so what it seems to be is happening, here's something crazy. What kind of a demon could do that? Right? That doesn't sound like a demon at all. Was it shattered for urine still in the driveway? Yes. And then brand new one was inside. Brand new one. So what that appears to be, these are glitches in the matrix. It's that black hat, where that should not be taking place, but it is. And then it manifests out of nowhere, which kind of implies that we exist in a construct of some sort, to where it's built on information, where at any time of their choosing, they could just imprint something into this reality. Speaking of the Vatican, wasn't there something that the Vatican came out with that where they said that people were going to be trying, they were warning that people were going to be trying to paint religious portraits onto the UFO phenomenon or something like that or try to correlate it with religion. And they were like trying to warn about that or something. Yeah, I think you're talking about the, because I think I read that too, where they were talking about apparitions and religious feelings. That apparitions. Yeah. So the reason they're doing that is because they're realizing that some of these entities will appear as religious figures. And when people try to see, okay, religion doesn't have a role to play in this, that's quite the opposite of the phenomenology. You know, we're talking about a lot of people who have met these entities that will take on the appearance of a religious figure. Dr. Kroha Turner had plenty of those cases, where it's those, it's, I think it's the, we're archetype, but it's a predictable manifestation. So Diane Episogra wrote about this in her, I think her recent book where she said somebody was, had Michael the Archangel hovering over her or something? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's the interface. It's no more Michael the Archangel than it was Mickey Mouse. It's something different. And this idea, though, that. It's present with us, but absent from what's present with us as the mask. I don't think we've actually ever truly seen its form, or maybe it doesn't even have a form. Right. You know, it could condescend itself into our reality to be perceived by us. There's a lot of theories regarding that, but there is an underlying deception present. So what do you think is going on with these orbs? Because that guy Chris Bledso sees them all the time and he films them and they don't always manifest in things, but he goes outside and the orbs surround him. So there's a-- Have you seen that stuff? Yeah, I know, it's fascinating. It's crazy. It's really fascinating. I mean, either the guy's the greatest magician of all time, or there's something crazy going on there. And it seemed to be tied to, according to him, if you're familiar with the story, the guy's been through insane trauma his whole life, psychological and physical. So if people speculate that maybe there's a connection between people that have gone through tons of trauma and like it opening up portal in their consciousness to being able to summon or see this stuff? I think that is true. And sometimes the phenomenon causes the trauma that opens up that portal. I mean, that's what happened in me. I mean, I went through a lot as a young kid and then later on in life, I started having a lot of paranormal experiences, like precognition and stuff. You know, like I would see things in some kind of second side. And I think it does come from my experience as a kid. But getting back to Chris Black, so I think he's genuinely a good dude. I really do. I just, I said this before, I don't trust the phenomenon at all, though. At all. And in those of us, like you study the folklore in the phenomenon at large, like almost like a cultural anthropologist, we go back in time. We say, okay, how many times has the white lady been witnessed? Right. Hathor, right? Absolutely. So it's not limited to his experience, respectfully. It's not. It's other people and even Jim Sinivant said this. Yeah, people in the intelligence community have witnessed this white lady. Now, here's something that's interesting. He said that what he witnessed or what they witnessed in the until it was completely different than what's being presented to us by people, you know, that are creating an narrative. Where she's love and light, right? She's just there to raise her conscience. No, she terrified them at first. Shadow figures. Right. What are we doing? Shadow figures in the home terrorizing the kids? And this is what we're dealing with. Again, I thought we're just talking about UFOs. Right. Or a white lady. No, we're not. We're talking about something that, like, it's the hitchhiker effect, but it's a deeper, darker aspect of it. Yeah. Where I'm going to manifest in your home. I'm going to give you false prophecies. And the problem I have with the field, with this part, particular nuance, is like, none of that's being presented to us. It's always strictly. Well, she's here to raise our consciousness that's the divine feminine. And in what Simevans said is something more along the lines of what we're seeing in the field, it's like, yeah, she's not all love and light. That's what Simevans said? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That she terrorizes people. And she's being accompanied by shadow figures. And so with respect to the disclosure of movement, I think that's an area that they're going towards. That's why Jay Stratton wrote his book when Jay Stratton's book. It's out now. But he's the guy who advised Dan Farah on the age of disclosure movie. Yes. And he basically pointed Dan Farah where to go to talk to. Right. So that's one aspect of disclosure that I agree with because it's what I found to be true of my own research is that there's a sting in this tail. And it's not just the hitchhiker effect. It's almost as if even some of the witnesses to UAPs, it's like, yeah, we tell the witnessing of the UAP story. Disclosure. Yeah. We don't talk about the shadow figures, the disembodied voices, and the malevolent haunting that follow. And that's why Lakatsky's work to me is so important. I know people have their issues with him. It's whatever. I'm after data. I don't really care about, you know, who dislikes who. So the data is real. And what he said was, guys, right, we're focusing on, okay, this witness saw that. We're not focusing on the fact that after we talked to them a little bit more, they came out with the fact that, yeah, it's not just UFOs. We're being haunted by something that's in our homes at nighttime. That's affecting our children, right? And that's why it's so important to say, okay, if we're going to include all of the data, let's include all of the data. And that's the kind of shit that would make me go to church if that started happening to me. I would fuck stuck out of church every day, just somebody voice. The right voice phenomenon though is, and that's what they're talking about, is some of the scariest manifestations. I mean, you're talking about, just picture this. It's at nighttime, right? And you're in bed. And you wake up for no reason. This has happened. And in the middle of the night, a man's voice calls you by name. And you don't know where it's coming from, which is there. That's what they're dealing with. And so, some are within these manifestations. I'm wondering if the UAP manifestation itself or witnessing itself is not really what's going on. It's almost like a parasite where that's what you see initially. Something else is going to come home with you. And that's the true phenomenon. About a year ago, I got hit with a text about an unpaid toll. And then when I went to pay it, I realized it was a scam. 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And that's why I love cash app. For limited time, new cash app customers can earn $10 if they use the code Secure 10 in their profile sign up and send $5 to a friend within the first 14 days. Terms apply. Cash app is financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by cash apps, bank partners, prepaid debit cards, insured by sudden bank member FDIC. Cash app Visa debit flex cards issued by sudden bank member FDIC and the bank court bank. Persuant to license from Visa USA Inc. See terms and conditions for sudden prepaid card, sudden debit flex card and bank court debit card. Discount some promotions provided by Cash app, a block ink brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. Yeah, it is weird. I wonder, you know, if it's just something that people are predisposed to psychologically, if there's something about their consciousness. Peter LeVendo wasn't here explaining to me, I was talking to him about this stuff. He was saying that if he was in charge of trying to figure out what this stuff was, he would, and this is his quote. He said he would take all the people who have experienced it and he would take apart the radio as far as their consciousness. And figure out what's going on inside these people's minds that's allowing this stuff to happen. Like, what's significant about them? And then, you know, there's also that other dude from California that says his name again Gary Nolan, who says that something to do with a basal ganglia. People that have, that experience this UFO stuff and experience paranormal activity, they have really dense neurons in their caude patainment in their brain, which is very odd. It's fascinating. One of Gary's cases is absolutely enchanting because he talks about this instance of a child in France, where, and this is another part of my research, where sometimes the phenomenon seeks to be seen. If you could be visible, why would you want to be visible, right? If you want to be invisible, why would you want to be seen by me? And so you have this case study of Gary Nolan's where you have this child and she's in the car with her mother and through the sunroof. She is seeing, again, seeing a craft. And so she begins to describe the dimensions of the craft, the collar, right? The shape. Here's another example of what we talked about earlier, right? The rendering aspect. Yeah. You know where the mother's like, okay, I've got an iPhone. There's the camera. The camera cannot believe. There is no consciousness to a camera. So it can't hack the camera. So that she takes a photograph of it in what was witnessed. And this is a key data point in the phenomenology was witnessed by that child was completely different that was captured on the camera. Wow. Completely different. Now, the theory that I'm working on again is that it's the phenomenon sought to be seen. I think I remember the story. Didn't you explain what didn't the girl explain what she saw out of the sunroof as like something that had like biological skin to it? Something like that. Yeah. And then the photograph itself was like this metallic object that had my points to it. It's really cool. And that's where I kind of nestled in my research was like, it's possible again that it's another mechanism where it diversifies itself. Right? Which one are you going to go document? Which, right? Okay, it's like the same thing in hauntology. Well, I'm going to go around it in right books about the apparition. No, that's it. That's it's rendering. That's what it wants you to see. Yeah. There's something else there beyond beyond the shadows that we're just starting to capture in when you're dealing with an entity or intelligence or even a craft that has the desire, not just the ability. The desire to compartmentalize itself. I want you to see this and this only. And meanwhile, something else is going on behind the scenes. That's what disturbs me because just like we could have been in hauntings and mythologize the mask of the apparition, we could have went around and had conferences about the wrong thing. So that's what we're at in this, and it makes me think that a lot of times people say, "Okay, I know what I saw, that's exactly right," and that's all we know. Whatever these things are, especially when it comes to the paranormal stuff inside people's homes at night, is there any evidence at all that these things can touch you or take you or physically handle you or harm you? Absolutely. What sort of evidence do we have of that other than just testimony? No. I have a photograph of a person that was being haunted malevolently, and there was a handprint. He got beat up pretty badly, but he is a handprint in his back, and it's the top hand of something. And my colleague ran a test on it using ultraviolet light, and they came to the conclusion that it was subdermal under the skin. Take that and let's go into some of the scarifications we have. So this gets really dark, by the way, unfortunately. So I have a case study of mine years ago, I gave a lecture on skin anomalies, on experimenters, and I've compared it and contracted them like abductees to people that live in hauntings. And I get on the phone call with this individual whose father was a famous remote viewer, at least in his town. So his father would do sessions. He would get information from his guides that he would go and get paid thousands of dollars by like politicians, and this remote viewer, dude. Yeah. He's a professional baseball player with an okay like, you know, should I hold out on my contract? And a fun fact, all the remote viewers were fucking Scientologists, take a do it that way you will. Yeah, right. Side note. Side note. I'll tell you what's crazy. This guy was going in and out of his body and meeting these creatures. And he said, you know, it was going well for him for a while. And then one day he came back and do his body and he had a coronary, get a mass of heart attack. Wow. And I have, it's wild. So the families there, the EMS is there, they're pulling a shirt off, they're working on them. And as they're looking at his body from underneath the skin to the surface or symbols, one of them was the star of David, one of them was across the third one was in, in, in arching Egyptian haverklific. They emerge from underneath the skin to the surface. And when I actually talked to the Sun about this and I got a hold of this remote viewer's diary, it's as crazy. He came to the conclusion that this was some kind of species of sorcerers that had led him to believe they were his guides and that some kind of ritual was performed upon him. And that's why he almost died. And that's an aspect of the field that's often, it's very underrepresented is that a lot of the physical evidence we have, even the level of hauntings, is scarifications that begin sub-dermally. And we cannot explain that. So along with that, getting back to the orbology and this, my dear friend Michael Lynch, now he's dead, but he's a great researcher, he had a case, and this is getting to anachronetics, my field where they're doing a investigation and they kept seeing this orb floating in and out of a man's body. And I don't know where he's being picked up, office fee onto a wall, and he can't breathe and he's saying Dr. Lynch, it's choking me, I can't breathe, I can't breathe. They couldn't see anything, right? And then out of nowhere, they see this hand print around his neck and they concluded that the hand print itself was an extension of the orb. Well, now we're getting into my research necronetics, which is projected consciousness, projected consciousness. Yes. Yes. Did you coin that term necronetics? Yes. Okay. These, the USSR were performing per psychological experiments. Right. Well, and it's fascinating to have, but one of their experiments, they took a blank piece of paper, placed it in an envelope, and taped the envelope to a person's head, a psychic medium's head. They said, okay, we have a series of symbols we want you, by virtue of projected consciousness and intention, we want you to put these symbols into this envelope, into this paper. Weirdest paper, it was declassified by the CIA 2002. So it happened, this is crazy stuff. So then the next experiment they ran was they took that piece of paper, put it 20 feet away, go through the same mechanism. We want you to project your intention, by the way, this is a cult science. Project your intention in your consciousness out of your body. We want to test its ability, your ability to change information in a matter. So here's what happened. That's another one of those data points that changed my trajectory, my research, is there was a difference, a contrast between the first and second experiments. The second experiment, they witnessed what's called a biofield manifest between the individual and the envelope. What's a biofield? Think about a translucent electromagnetic field, a cloud, that's visible to the naked eye, and it's slowly moving. And by the way, this gets back into orbs. Inside that cloud, they were, they were visibly, they were watching this as these balls of light begin to manifest with that cloud. And it moved across the room, nestled down upon that envelope, same end result. Here's the thing. Some of Dr. Collector Turner's cases, and she's dead now, unfortunately, but she worked on this case study, and I've since worked on it with the families that she's gone. But in this particular abduction, if you will, the mother is sleeping on the couch, the son who I personally know in his father, they're watching television. Out of the corner of the room, they see it, and we didn't have a reference for this, right? We didn't know this was kind of an experiment. They see this translucent cloud of energy begin to move, hovering through the room. It goes over there and it descends down upon the sleeping mother. Now, 45 minutes later, she wakes up. She claims to have been abducted by a gray alien. But she was covered from head to toe with symbols. With symbols? Yes. Now, we're leading on fever. That's the only symbols that we can find that look the same. Feabend? Feabend, yes. Again, we're dealing with sorcery. Okay. It's a medieval alphabet, by the way, it employed by a medieval alphabet. So my theory, one of my theories, she had these things all over her. Now, can you look up the origin of this stuff and click on that link to tell me what it says about it. Even alphabet also known as the witch's alphabet is the writing system specifically, a substitution cipher of the Latin script that was used by early modern occultists and is popular in the Wicca movement, okay, 16th century. The evidence suggests that some of what we're witnessing as orbs is projected consciousness, and that would also make sense as to why it can become, can become anthropomorphic. It's a hand around the neck. Or even with Chris Bledzo, he was being stalked by somebody that had, he said, what did he say? He said, "I was in the forest and I heard the footfall of a man walking behind me." He turns around and it's just an orb. So a lot of these orbs, I believe, to be projected consciousness, and I fake the USSR in our federal government, stumbled over that concept where you can project your consciousness into another environment. And that person will perceive your consciousness based upon how you intend them to. Whoa! Joe McMonigal, right? Joe McMonigal, a remote viewer, remote viewed himself into the gel cell of a terrorist. And what the terrorist observed as projected consciousness looked nothing like Joe McMonigal. It was an orb, eh? It was a translucent being that floated off the underground. Holy fuck. So what we're dealing with is, now what we're dealing with here is a technology of consciousness to where I could, you know, throw up the project, my consciousness into your environment. Either by virtue of that biofield, right? I could literally perform a ritual on you by virtue of my projected consciousness. And I could tell you I'm a great alien and you'll wake up thinking you're abducted, which is what this individual did, the mother. And the family is there and they're like, "Mom, you didn't leave. You stayed here the whole time." So what I believe, and this is my current position, is that a lot of what we're dealing with in the abduction phenomenon is the end result of projected consciousness. of congeners. And this is exactly what General Macastlin led to in Peola, Peola Venda, right? One of the theories being presented. And Macastlin was talking about this? Yeah, he, yeah. So, so he, okay, this is a whole breakdown. So he hubbed out of the right petter for space. For people listening, Macastlin's one of the scientists, their top generals had just went missing in the last couple months. He was, yeah, he was one of the advisors to the whole secret machines series. By the way, he was talking to Tom DeLondon. Yes, yeah. So, it's off to Peola Venda, by the way, huge fan, huge fan. Yeah. But they were working with this concept, right? The, but their theory was that a ceremonial magician in another dimension, we're in the same framework here, by the way, right? A ceremonial magician in another dimension is projecting a conscious into this dimension and we're perceiving it as a UFO or a UAP. So, within that intellectual framework, by the way, and this is going to be, I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, is that is Collins Elite territory. Somebody, didn't somebody just tell us there today that the Collins Elite was fake or like that was all mess made up? Somebody just told me that, I don't remember who. I'm not a big fan, a lot of their, of a lot of their work, at least Collins Elite. But something that they hid on that was fascinating to me. And I want to provide some background to this. I grew up in that haunted house within the walking distance to right petter for space. Which is the hub where McCastlin was, was out of and where the Collins Elite and the stock five right there. Yes. This is going to blow your mind. Now, that, my house, okay, so there's, there's airway. People are going to watch that, they're going to, yeah, it's going to, it's going to track. There's the airway road, there's Woodman, there's Joe's Pizzeria, then there's right petter for space. I live in a house over here. I have family members that worked at right pet, one of them still does, okay? One of them told me as a kid that they witnessed a craft hovering above the right petter for space. And I said, really, I was like, it was like a, you know, UFO was a metallic. They said, no, it was a projection of something. And I said, well, how do you know that? They said, because we could actually see as it just kind of retracted back into the, where was a building at the right petter for space. Anyways, she said, and my aunt Angela, she said it, it looked like some kind of projection. Not a real structured craft. Right. Let's go to James Lakatsky's work, okay? In his book Future Visions, he talks about the difference between solid looking craft and metallic objects. In other words, he's, he's implying that one can look solid, right? It's a physiological construct, just like an apparition. But it's not a real craft. This is the foglets or whatever. You know what I'm talking about? Jesse Michaels has dropped a video about this where they have these mountains. There's allegedly this guy who was who went on, I forget his name. This guy who went on Jesse Michaels podcast, he said he worked for some like a private military, military contractor, and they were doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And he just wrote a book and he sent it to the Pentagon to get it approved for public release to figure out. And this was a game he played specifically to see what they would redact because he'd be able to do science fiction. Nice. Okay. And basically part of the story is that they have these fake mountains in the desert in Mexico that are made up of something called foglets where it's not a, it's not a hologram of a mountain because they can, it's, it's, they can program it to be a solid or to be like something that people can fly through. So they're saying they can, they can have it. So where their helicopters can fly right through the fucking mountain, but a fighter jet who's chasing that helicopter will, will explode when it hits it. That's, I think that's what we're leading to. And this is the same thing that a lot of people talk about with like these secret bases that are in New Mexico that were these, these helicopters can descend right underneath the ground right into the ground or are a merge out of a fucking portal in a lake or something. Yeah. It exists when they want it to. It's really what they're pointing to, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't exist for me. And it'll exist for you. So the physiological construct part about this, it falls right in and hand with what we know in ontology. That orb can create something that looks real. And it's not. And so it's a projection, it's a construct. So what the call is lead again. So dealing with this idea that my aunt working at Wright Pat, she said, okay, Nathaniel, I saw this craft in the sky, but it was a projection. So she believed, well, the call is lead again. And I take everything they say what the grain of salt, by the way. But one of the data points that they had that really was fascinating to me was the idea that there were researchers in the federal government hubbed out of the Wright Pat Air Force Base, who were collectively projecting their consciousness as physiological constructs in other people, UAP witnesses, were seeing what they thought was a craft when really it was constructed projected consciousness. And I think that plays a role. It falls hand in hand with what I think I'm researching here. But I think that more than anything else that this is, I think our government's classified consciousness. I think they know a lot more about that than we do and that a lot of what we're seeing is it's some kind of projection. Not all of it. Yeah, I'm not going, you know, do you believe these stories that these people are talking about of kidnapping people out of like the desert, like the forests or jungles of Indonesia, and then rendering them to United States and using them to summon these UFOs and stuff, like feeding them specific diets. And something to do with the fact that these people aren't attuned to modern civilization or technology or anything like that, that they have some sort of a sensory opening to be able to conjure this this stuff. And they're using this in like, I don't know. I don't know. I have heard of cases where children are being used and it's really dark stuff. But I do believe that's some, I think that is happening to a degree. And what's so fascinating about like the Epstein files is when they were talking about this concept that yeah, like you would have like these like migrant groups of people that, you know, migraine or something, they're trying to get to the United States and like 10 of their kids go missing and they can figure out whether it's politeies work, right? It's missing 401. So I don't really know. I don't know what's going on there, but I can attest to yes that children have been used to conjure these beings. That's sort of like the darker stuff. Like I remember talking to Roni Verne about orbs and stuff and he was telling us about how that bloodletting in Brazil, like people would actually cut themselves and the more blood they let, the more manifestation of these balls of light would manifest. So I think that has a little bit to do with it, but it's really dark stuff. All right. I got a pee. We'll be right back. What I wanted to ask you earlier was, are you aware of that there was a story that Diana Pasolka told me on, she wanted to set it in her book, where she was meeting with Jacques Villain, he told her to read the devil book, the book about the devil. Like these people are obsessed with like people like Jacques Villain and Hainek, they were like all obsessed with like angels and demons and all this stuff and I've read the devil book and there's like, no, I don't understand what the hell he was talking about there. Maybe this guy comes from this background, maybe he was raised in this sort of like Catholic sort of world. I don't know. It might be, it might be, I recently watched an interview he did of a lay where he was actually more sympathetic to demonology than I could ever even imagine. He was like, you know, he goes, he's not, he's like, I'm not a Christian, but he goes, I, I sympathize with that position and I can understand why that, you know, people would believe they're demonic. But I mean, look at the archetype, right? Okay, it's orange and hooves. It's like, how much of this is the phenomenon playing on our belief system? You believe I am this? That's how I'm going to peer to you as, right? So it would be along the lines of that what we see may not be real, it may be just what we're most likely to believe in. And that's very keelian by the way. It's very John keel, but it would make sense as to why we have cases of like where you have the phenomenon wearing a mask, not just that UFO, by the way, you know, like actual entities appearing as something and then you think you're, the problem is that we're having is that we apply rules to that interface, right? To that mask. Like, okay, if it's deer and adna, you're not going to hurt me, you're not going to do anything. If you're a cartoon, I'm going to definitely trust you because you're very innocent. I can trust you. And it's like, no, the phenomenon on where that get you into a compromising position and that mask comes off. And you realize for the first time, just like the remote you were, you weren't my guy at all. You were something different. And now you start to see it's just it's the hitchhike effect. There's something else going on. So do you believe that like, there's actual like what you were saying about was a Joe McMonogal projecting his consciousness into a cell of a terrorist and the terrorist saw something in a cell? Yeah, I think it was him and we will. It's hard to believe you. That's freaking crazy. Do you think that this is happening a lot with like different government programs where they're actually doing this? Like, maybe these orbs, Chris Bledso, is seeing this is something like the government could possibly to be doing. Yeah, one percent. Absolutely. And so I think that that is the case that our government knows what they're doing. And that even with a monogool, that's not a one-off case. Okay, we have cases I have a case study. It's from Claude Lakuto's book where is again, we're in the 16th century, where a sorceress projecting his consciousness as an alter ego. And whatever he's projecting is being perceived by someone in that environment. As yeah, in this case, it was literally something that didn't look like him at all, but he was experiencing whatever that alter ego was experiencing. So again, I would hate to be that horse here, but it does sound like our government discovered. I want to say a cult science, but it's like they discovered an aspect of consciousness that they're classifying. But that cases like that are all throughout history. And what's so fascinating when I, because I have that background again in that folklore and that research, when I heard, and I said, "Red, that occurring, it blew my mind," because I'm like, "Well, if you could render yourself at another location as an angel by projected consciousness, what else can you render your self as?" Right. It's a whole other, it's a whole other field. Wow. Yeah, like one of the things that explodes my mind about, blood so story, so all these CIA people are like gravitating towards them, and all these government officials and ass of people, like surrounding them, like befriending him, and even that spooky Tim Taylor dude, like befriending him and telling him all this insane stuff, and like giving him the briefcase, holding the medals, and like having this, like that seems like some sort of like circus act to me. It very well could be. Like not that, I'm not saying blood so is making it up. What I'm saying is that I feel like it's that dude or those people intentionally trying to confuse him, or make him believe a false narrative about something. But I don't know anything. No, I think that does play a role in it. I also tend to sympathize with Richard Bander's exposition where it wasn't just that the meta-materials they held in their hands, you know, they would dissolve in a dust. It was if that was not designed for you. Oh, okay. Right. Then it will return to the dust and it'll blend in with its reality. Why? Because if you aren't the one, the phenomenon gifted this two and four, it'll dissolve. But if you are, it will allow you specifically to reverse engineer it essentially. Right. So that if you take that again, specifically what he said about holding in your hand, it would appear to me as if there are two things going on. And when I hear Ryan Bledzo say that the government believe my dad was Merlin, that falls on deaf ears because he say that? Yes. Who told him that? I have no idea. Find that. I'll send it to you after the show. Yeah, I see we'll find it. Yep. So I didn't have podcasts but it's fascinating to me because people say, okay, that's hilarious. Like no, no, no, no. He's not seen like from my position. It's not like, okay, he's actually Merlin. Merlin was a category. Yes. Right. Not just a person. Later on, a majority became a category of a person that was in contact with the phenomenon. Well, if I was the government and I found a person, I knew I had the best I, you know, I knew what was going on. And we were trying to keep it a secret and not let it out into the public. And we found a person, a civilian who had some kind of crazy connection I didn't understand, I would study the fuck out of him. I would also make him believe that he was Jesus Christ. Exactly. Yeah, because then when he would go out of the public and people would fucking write him off, all these guys things, he's Jesus. Get out of here. You would be able to capture all of your actionable data. And then after your finish, dispose of him. Exactly. That's the best way to do it. And that, that sucks. I mean, I genuinely feel terrible like I, yeah. If that's true, that's despicable. Yeah, it is. But that's, it is true that it's despicable. But that's what they've historically done to people. Yeah. Yeah. They just throw you away. Yeah. And the sad part about that is the, it's not like the phenomenon leaves them. But they're still going through that. It's just the government got everything they needed from that particular case study, audios, onto the next. And so what's even worse than that is convincing them that they're the, you know, that they're the only ones that have seen the white lady and their interpretation of her is the accurate one. And nobody else is. And I think again, that's the government telling me like, okay, this is the only interpreter. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, they're like, yeah, there's a lot more to her than, than what we're allowed to say. So, and that's what I think happened essentially is that they found out that he was in contact or she was in contact with him. He said, okay, let's test, right? Because that's what happened. Tim Taylor was at the house and out of nowhere, he pulls Ryan aside, according to Ryan's testimony, he goes, okay, hold this for me or his dad or the hold us. And yeah, so it's, it's a fascinating case study. I just, I don't trust the government. I don't trust the phenomenon. I just don't. What is this stuff you were talking about? And I believe Craig me from wrong, this stuff exists in like a lot of old texts or scriptures about these entities actually impregnating humans. That's the long argument. Yeah. And when did this start? When did this first starting be, be starting document everywhere? I will mainly in the 16th century, a lot of things happen 16th century, by the way. So there were two things going on at the same time, in, in then softy palace time today, softy as real, they were having the debut manifestation or the dibic manifestation. And the term dibic is gets really weird, by the way. It, it means to cling to, but it also, it also means the impregnation of the dead in the bodies of the living. So you would have cases, it's just like the incubi, right, where it's an entity appearing to a woman, in a dream, and then the next morning she'll have bruises on her body that directly correlate with a nightmare to she's like, okay, it's, this, this wasn't just a dream. It actually happened. But whatever these beings were, they just wanted her to believe it was a dream, so she can go live in her life. Really what they, you know, they did bad things. So, but yeah, that, that's the incubus. And that's the deep book phenomenon, but there were cases of pregnancies that would go missing in, and not just that. And this is kind of, it's a, it's hand in hand with the abduction phenomenon, by the way, where it was the succubus, a succubus, a female entity would abduct a man. So there's a book called Aros and Evil by Aureo Masters. And he details instances where men were abducted by quote demons, whatever, okay. And like literally being given a child in that child looks remarkably like them. The problem was the man would say, I'm a virgin. I would, how could I father a child? So this is why some people again, that they will look at, you followed your demonology, kind of combine the two, because it's possible that we're dealing with one and the same. It's just these are archetypes of the single source, right? They're masks. So that's where I got into a point in my research where I kept bumping my head into these categories. And I realized like, hmm, maybe we're dealing with the same things here. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's why my, like my friend Josh will catch another guy to talk to, he's big into fairy lord and everything. And he talks about the subject extensively, where even some of the fairy lord has the same manifestations. Yeah. Yeah. So what we're looking at is either they're all separate intelligence that just do in the same things. We're dealing with an intelligence that's masquerading as all of these one single source of intelligence that's masquerading wearing masks and shit. It's possible. You know, you heard David Huggins. Yeah. Wild story. He lost his virginity to an alien. I know. I know. I know the bunch of alien babies with this lady. Yeah. And she looked like a human, like a human with like an alien head. And there was like mantids and all these other things. And like this guy was not public, was not trying to promote any of the stuff. Just this filmmaker dude heard about him and went and made an incredible documentary about it. And this dude just sits in his apartment in Hoboken and makes paintings and does art shows and stuff like this. And no one, everyone writes them off is crazy because it's just such a wild story. You know, the more I get into this research, I don't write off anything anymore. Yeah. And it's just, it gets weirder and weirder as the day goes on. So these stories of these people that get impregnated, the they're temporarily carrying a fetus. And then the fetus just vanishes. Vanishes. Yeah. So the missing fetus syndrome is the, is there any modern descriptions of this or like modern accounts of this? There's a documentary called Extraordinary Seeding that would recommend where you have these individuals that, where you have these individuals that. että voimme harjoittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknistä osaamista. Voimme hallinoida yrityksen taustajaristeelle miei- ja front-endia sekä myydä verkossa, vaivatta, jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi mielestäni itse polkupyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu Shopify'sssä. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu, Shopify piste.com sivustolla. Perustin pyöräilyvaatteita valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Sivustolla vaivattaa ilman teknistä osaamista. Sivustolla. Sivustolla, se olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi pyöräilyvarustavan, se olisi pyöräilyvarustavan ja se olisi pyöräilyvarustavan, se olisi pyöräilyvarustavan. - Right, so it looks like you were gestating a fetus. - Like a c-section? - No, it's just gone. That's what's even weird. - But like scar tissue for a c-section or something? - Inside the bone. Yeah, the cavity. That's weird. Now, I could tell you that in the 16th century, again, the Debuk phenomenon is equally fascinating, where Isaac Luria, again, dealing with possession and pregnancy, they believed that possession to us is pregnancy to whatever these beings are. So you would not just have the fetus. You would have consciousness in the fetus as possession. It's really wild stuff, man. But in the 16th century, they were having cases where women were possessed by beings that they were seemingly impregnated by the same time. And so Isaac Luria would hold the wrists. He was a cobalistic practitioner. He would hold the wrists of these women. And at times, he would find two heartbeats in the same body, two pulses in the same body. And so, and this is one of the most mind-blowing instances in humanology where they're asking the woman, "Are you like what happened to you?" I mean, some of this gets an even Islamic exorcism, too. They have the same methodology where you're pregnant with an entity or a being, and you're a virgin or something. Have you had a dream of an entity in the night? And a lot of times it's like, absolutely. So my point, though, is Isaac Luria, and even Hanyvital, to a certain degree, they were doing exorcisms on these women that were possessed. And they asked the question, because these women were actually starting to show physically as if they're pregnant. That's why they call it the impregnation of the dead and the bodies of living. And so they're showing symptoms of pregnancy, not just pulse as heartbeats, but actual physical symptoms. And so they asked them, "Okay, is it possible you're not just possessed by the entity, but you're actually pregnant with it as well?" And it kind of changed the course of demonology. And then we would be dealing with, would be an entity that would want to impregnate with the fetus and its own consciousness, which is the red right. Peter Kiel's red right. You find a woman, you impregnate them, and you take that fetus as your own avatar, so you can prolong your own existence. Now that would explain, I'm just brain stored here, but that would explain why the incubi entity would produce sigils and secretions at the same time. Why? Because he's trying to transfer his consciousness and do a fetus, and he can only do that with his secretions and his own sigils. Do any of these, are there any accounts of these people actually giving birth to these things? Like some sort of immaculate conceptually? Very, very, very. Now, yes, that is a legend. Now I will give you an instance that, oh my god, Jesus was born. I don't think so. I don't know. I don't think so. I don't see any examples of sigils being present, but I think that there is something going on that we're completely ignorant of, in terms of reality and existence. Now, Dr. Turner, back to your question about, are they happening and what's going on? Dr. Turner had a case where a lady was abducted, impregnated, and they did some memory regression with her, which I don't recommend, but they're doing this with her. You don't recommend it? Well, here's why, man. You got people, okay, that, and I've had this happen, where they thought it was a love and light experience. It's like, oh, it's a cool news. I was abducted and nobody did. And then they're like, but I want to know everything that happened, and then you do memory regression, and all of this stuff comes out, and it's like, now there's a lot of trauma. Maybe that would have been best if it just stayed there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was Dr. Turner's theory. Yeah, we're not going to do that. But Dr. Turner had a case study where a lady gave birth to one of these fetuses, and it was no longer alive. And so she buried it. But the phenomenon, it's crazy, it's almost like it possessed her to put the fetus in a glass jar and bury it. But that's as far as it allowed her to remember. She could not tell anybody, I don't remember where I buried it. I don't know how far deep I buried into the ground. And so the phenomenon just blocked her memory from the rest. Now, Dr. Turner had in one of these instances, herself, where upon finding out that her whole family was being abducted, she held a family meeting. And it was her, her ex-husband, her son, and they're all talking. And her ex-husband's like, you know, Carla, don't you remember that you were pregnant by one of these beings? And she's like, no, I wasn't. He goes, oh, yeah, you lost it. We had to replace the whole bed, right? Basically, and everybody knew that's what happened. And she also forgot about the whole ordeal. The phenomenon would not let her remember. So, yeah, is it happening? Very well could be. The problem is, who's going to remember it? So that's why we had to rely on like the physical name. God, that's so wild. Well, what's disturbing about all of this? And this is a question that was postulated to Dr. Turner. How many people are being abducted? We don't know. Why? Because the only abductions we are documenting are from people who are allowed to remember them. And it's like, okay, well, what about the people that are experiencing this thing? They just don't have the memory of it. And so that's when you start having experiences who start to have post-traumatic stress disorder. That their body starts to bear the weight of the trauma that their mind no longer remembers. So it's really dark stuff, right? Yeah. And why would some people be allowed to remember it? Or or maybe they're not allowed? Maybe this by some happenstance. They're normalize or fails or something like that. And Chris Bletsow, when he does have these crazy memories, which becomes this like self-looking ice cream cone to where now they have all this crazy trauma. And that just induces more of this experience. That may be the case. Another fascinating case study given to us by Dr. Turner, it's captivating because it shows us where we are in those. Unfortunately, we cannot trust what we see with this. Just like I damaged it early on in the pathology, where we see something and then what's on camera is completely different. Yeah. There's a researcher named Tray Hudson, which I'll get back to Dr. Turner in a second, but Tray Hudson has a investigation called a metal project. What I told you guys about early about projecting consciousness as orbs. So there are two things the phenomenon can do when you witness it. It can induce by location in the observer. This happened with Betty Luka, her husband, and even Judy Dori, another case study where you literally see a craft. And suddenly, you are out of your own body, and you are witnessed in two places at once. Betty Luka discovered this with her husband, Bob, with her abductees, when should they get ready for bed? Bob is sitting at the edge of the bed, putting socks on all of the sudden. He's out of his body. His real body is insuspecting animation, but there's an apparition of him walking towards her. Same thing happened to her. Yeah. So the phenomenon can do that. The second thing the phenomenon can do demonstrated by the metal project is it can change the thermal energy signature of a human being into a ball of light, which goes back into my theory, a projected consciousness of a human. In the metal project, they're looking through a thermal camera. They're picking up a thermal image of one of their researchers that it's on the project in this, in some kind of park, I believe. They're in the woods at least, and they've got him on camera as the thermal image out of nowhere. He's no longer on the camera. He is now just an orb. Was his blood cell? So they did this with? - No, this was in the metal project. - Okay. - This is one of their researchers. So anyways, so that's a crazy thing. So we can't trust what we see. Now getting back to Dr. Turner, she had a case study of an individual who was having a cook out at our house and she's got like a bunch of neighbors over. And she's like in a catatonic state here, like talking to Dr. Turner, like really emotional and she goes, "I don't understand what happened." She goes, "The only thing you can say is we are, we're collectively, we're observing this metallic craft hovering above a neighbor's house. We watch this hover for 45 minutes straight." She said, "I remember pulling out binoculars, staring at this object and then passing it down the line, and everybody's got the binoculars." She said, "Furthermore, I remember using my telescope to zoom in on this thing." And she's like, "This happened for like 40 plus minutes or so." And Dr. Turner said, "Okay, what's the problem?" And she said, "Dr. Carla, I don't own binoculars." Yeah, whoa. She said, "And then later on that day, I went back and found that my telescope was still in the box, it was delivered in." - What the fuck? - Yes, we cannot trust what we see. And so the idea here, and this is the problem, that the phenomenon will diversify itself into different masks, but it can also create a virtual reality scenario. To where even those who are allowed to remember it, right? It's a built-in mechanism of deceit. Even if I do remember something, is what I am remembering an accurate depiction of what happened? - Yeah. Yeah, it's from what you're describing, it makes me feel like it's nothing physical. It's nothing that we can explain with physics. Like a lot of people try to fit this into a box, like maybe they're time travelers, maybe they're from another planet, maybe they're here, future humans, they're like an ancient descendant of our ancestors that survived cataclysm and live under the ocean now, and that have just mastered gravity and electro-gravitics and have technology that can basically cloak themselves and all the stuff, but it doesn't seem like that is the correct framework from what you're describing to fit this stuff into. - It's too weird. - It feels more like, I just feel, just if I'm gonna describe what it feels like, it feels to me more like that we are in some sort of a video game, and these are the creators of the video games that are just like coming in and moving stuff around, kind of like that movie. Goddamn it, we always, I always feel like the name of this damn movie, where they come in and they pause reality and they change stuff. - Adjustment Bureau. - Adjustment Bureau. - Yes. - Yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I would, and I love that movie, by the way, I think it's a combination of three movies, four, really, if you wanna get down to it. So you have, you adjustment Bureau, you have the Truman Show, where he realizes, if I go this direction, the control system will try to stop me, okay, think about this, that moment, and I'll give you all the other movies in a second, but, so, okay, that moment of Truman Show when Truman's starting to realize like things aren't really what he thought they were, he goes into a grocery store and he sees that, okay, if he goes beyond the limitations, you start seeing what I would consider to be the phenomenon, right, cutting him off. Right, no, look at this. Look at this, watch, diversifying itself. Look at this, don't go behind the scenes, why, because behind the white doors, right, there was a producer in the, he realized, this is less of reality, it's a stage. - Yeah. - And a lot of what we're witnessing is stage craft, there are stage craft. And so that's one movie, so you have Truman Show, adjustment Bureau, then you have Dark City, which is my favorite out of the whole dark city, where you have a paracetic species, and this gets back in the Necronetics, who are projecting their consciousness to create a reality. And at every night, they will get together, this is stack five, by the way, they would get together, let's say at the right pad, air force base, just can, right, they would together, they would congregate, they would project their consciousness and people around them with one guy would watch as these buildings are being moved and created, and they're adjusting the landscape. Yeah, and then the humans would wake up, and wow, you know, what's that? So that's a good one too, but what it appears to be though is it's a construct, that's why they can, not just manipulate reality, but I mean, there's been cases, and I know this is anecdotal, but Steve was talking to Peter Robbins about this. My buddy Steve Merrin, he's like, Peter is like, it's gonna be the weirdest question, 'cause nobody wants to answer it, 'cause it's like kind of verbose. What's the craziest case study you have ever heard of? Like, well, you know, 'cause for people who don't know Peter Robbins was a research assistant to bud hopkins. And he's like, you know, he goes bud hopkins, and we went to investigate a case where a man was being pulled through the ceiling by these beings, and something glitched out. And so now he's kind of stuck in the ceiling, and they had to go and carve him out, yes, yes. So this is why, and this is so cool too, is why the conversation is shifting. It's where beyond the materialistic view, or materialist view of reality, it's more of the information that becomes matter. That's why the reports take place. That's why they have the ability, again, to walk through walls, become physical. What does that mean? I mean, I've read an abduction account, specifically in the book Beyond UFOs, with Ray Hernandez, where he's talking about abductees who were not taken out of their bodies, but in their bodies, they become non-physical. So it's not astral, right? It's literally like changing the way matter exists, how it's structured, and then we're pulled into their environment and then that will, they put us back together. It's really weird stuff here. But that's where we're kind of, I'm kind of done with all of the categories. I just want to look at it. I just want to know, right? Like, quit trying to pigeonhole me to one model. What does the data say? Because I think that if people actually knew this data, it's a lot darker than demons. It's like, wait a minute, what's really going on? Right. And also, there seems to be the same sort of pattern happening in these stories of people having near-death experiences, where their near-death experience will match their religious background or their religious belief, whether it be Judaism or Christianity or whatever it is. And that should be a statistical and probability. Yeah. Well, you know, especially that gone in a flash or that one with a lady got struck by lightning, that one's insane. She like leaves her body and she goes and sits in a garden and it has all these symbol symbols, 'cause she was literally walking into her synagogue when that happened. And her whole experience was very related to her Jewish upbringing. Which is strange. 'Cause if there is one truth, or let's say if I have my religious tradition, you do yours, right? And there was one objectionable truth, right? Or an objective object of truth, where it doesn't matter what people believe. Right. Does it make sense? It's like kind of not that. That's what it's weird. I'll give you the craziest near death experience I ever heard of. And I heard it directly from an individual. She was an EMS driver. And when I first met her, she had a scar about that wide right through here. And I knew there was some neurological damage. And she's like, look Nathaniel, I know you want to ask. I'm like, I'm not going to ask you. I'm like, what's good, you know what I mean? She's like, no, go ahead, I want to tie us. Like, okay, like, what happened? She goes, I used to drive an ambulance and she goes, I got a call in the middle of the night. To go on a call, she's like, I'm flying down this highway. It's in the winter time. She goes, I hit a patch of ice. I'm ejected from the ambulance and my head hits the guard rail. It dissolves all the connective tissue inside of my skull that holds my brain intact. She goes, if I fall right now, my doctors told me I'm gone. She's like, so I barely walk anymore. And I said, okay, you know, and she goes, but the craziest thing happened to me. She goes, I woke up in a dimension. She goes where there was no pain. I wasn't hurting. The callers were more vibrant. She said, and I remember looking at my DC's father. And these are like the cases that really fascinate me. It's like, wait a minute. And she's like, listen, I don't want to go back into my body because I'm pretty sure I'm in bad shape. And he goes, no, you have to. It's not your time. You've got to go back for your boys. And I was like, okay, you have children. She goes, not for a decade. - Whoa. - Yeah. And they're in the back of my next setup. And I was like, yeah, that's wild. So yeah, she had two twin boys a decade later. - That's crazy. - So there aren't your death experiences where I kind of look at and I think, okay, that's kind of iffy, you know, like it always follows your tradition, but that's the near death experience that I could not explain. The wildest one that I ever heard was there is a twins. a brother, two brothers, a brother and a sister that were in a car accident. And it was a shared and near death experience where one survived and the other one died. And the twin brother that survived explained in a detailed account of what it was like. They were out both out of body together and then this being came and took the sister away and then he went back down into his body. Fucking gay, that one gave me the chills. Are you familiar with Ian Stevens's work? No, okay. So Ian Stevens and, oh my gosh, this is another wild one. I can't wrap my mind around this. Anyways, he has an individual, a woman, she has a near death experience. Well, she comes out of it, speaking a different language, different memory, changes her name and goes in and moves with a family that she allegedly existed with before she had died. So you have literally a near death experience, or near death experience, who is like on the verge of dying, someone else comes into her avatar, changes her belief system, her tradition, her language, her clothing, her fashion emancipates herself from her family to join another one. And by the way, she came back saying, yeah, I died, but I'm back again, I forget what her name was, but here's my name, I'm gonna go back and live with my family. It was the only case of that happening, but it happened on the list. So whoa, let me make sure I got this straight. Yeah, it's a near death experience. Someone else, her soul, if you wanna say that, one way of saying it was her soul left her body and another soul entered her, that was her carcass. Yeah. And then, and then went and did its own thing. Yes. And then what happened to her original soul again? I don't know. Back eventually? No, not the monologue. The soul just was gone. It was gone. That's the craziest one I've ever heard. And it was a one-off, by the way, but it doesn't matter. We don't need one to be like, that's kind of weird. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, yeah, like I've never heard of anything quite like that before in the research where literally, you imagine that, like, you know, you're thankful, you know, like you're survived the near death experience. Yeah. Stuces. Yeah, it sounds like a, it sounds like one of those horrific stories of, like, Salvia trips gone wrong with people to eat, take salvia and then they, like, live an entire life and, like, raise a family and children and go through this whole thing. And then they come back and it was only, like, five minutes. That's right. You know, there was this crazy study and, over your heart of it, there was a John Hopkins study on religious professionals. They took religious leaders from, like, Judaism Christianity, Hinduism and, like, Islam. And they gave them all psychedelics, the same psychedelic drug. And they wanted to document what their experiences were. And their goal was to find out if there was a common core to all religions, this, like, perennialist idea of, like, maybe all these religious stories that we have written down all come from one original source. And what they found was that all the psychedelics did was just, it enhanced their original religious belief. And, like, they experienced their psychedelic experience, it had their religion was, like, mapped on to every single one of them. Like, they all had very different experiences based on their religious background and what they believed already, which was pretty wild. Is this the lady? Lundy who died went to hell and came back to the human world after two months. Her name is Samitra. The sounds different. Case with possession type in India with evidence of paranormal knowledge. Dr. Ian Stevenson, is that guy you said? Yep, he's Stevenson. Father of reincarnation research. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. He studied the case of children who claimed to remember, "Oh, yeah. "Her remember past, this is different, I think." Yeah, I heard about this too. This is what Jeffrey Kripple was telling us about. By the way, she'll have to Jeffery. Yeah, he's awesome. Pretty cool. I'm never met him, but he seems to be nice guy. Yeah, he was talking about this too. He was tied up. Oh, this is the abstract. Okay, this is the exact story that this is medium articles talking about. Young married woman, Samitra, in a village in the northern of northern India apparently died and then revived. After a period of confusion, she stated that she was one Shiva who has been murdered in another village. She gave enough details to permit a verification of her statements which corresponded to the facts in the life of another young married woman called Shiva. Shiva had lived in a place about 100 kilometers away and she had died violently there earlier by suicide or murder about two months before Sumitra's apparent death and revival. Subsequently, Sumitra recognized 23 persons in person or in photographs known to Shiva. She also showed in several respects new behavior that accorded with Shiva's personality and attainments. For example, Shiva's family were Brahmins, whereas Sumitra was Thakkurs. After the change in personality, Sumitra showed Brahmins habit, Brahmins habits and were strange in her family that were strange in her family, weird. I think that's been the most fascinating research out right now. Yeah, so Kripa was saying about the people who the kids who remembered previous lives. He thinks there was a connection to the trauma or whatever because he said, most of the children who experienced past lives, who said they had remembered their past lives, they were always male in their previous lives. And he thinks that the reason for that is that mostly men died violent deaths, the more traumatic deaths, like back in history because they're the ones that are typically in combat or whatever. So they had the most violent traumatic deaths and that somehow correlated to these kids remembering past lives. And that's very prominent in a debuuc literature too, where people would become possessed. Like there was one case that Luria had where an individual possessed somebody to solve their own murder and told the authorities, here's where the murderer is. The knife that he killed me with is in his possession. Here's his address. They went knocked on the door. When they knocked on the door, the individual came out and said, "Oh my God, thank God his ghost has been haunting me the entire time." Yeah. For a frame of reference, that's in the book between two worlds and then Jewish possession or possession of Jewish literature. So fascinating stuff. But again, when I got introduced to all this stuff, I thought, okay, it's just orange and humps. You know, I'm going to my local church and they're like, that's what it is. And once I got into the data, I'm like, there's a lot of things here that's, it's even more fascinating than that. And then there's also stuff you talked about with deathbed visions where people try to like remote view deathbed experiences. What was that all about? So there's a book I have. It's called Deathbed Visions by William Barrett, I believe his name is. And it details the instances where children were dying would often see already deceased relatives. In what was strange about that was like some of them, 'cause I talked to an individual that worked in hospice and she was thinking, well, there's a reason for that. You know, like the reason our ancestors would come back to us is to help us go through that process. But some of these cases are like, where they weren't even that sick, you know, but the entities like trying to convince them to give up on life. And so it's really weird stuff. Like one case study in that book was talking about how there was like a three month old baby and then like a six year old boy, the three month old passed away and the six year old boy was still was pretty sick. But then like in the middle of the night that baby came to the six year old and was like trying to convince them to give up. And so the doctor is like trying to convince the mother. Like I know, like you think that's a good sign but there's no way that's a baby trying, you know, it's something else is what they were trying to imply. - The doctor was saying that. - Yeah. - It's weird, man. - Yeah, how would a baby that young be able to even communicate? - There wouldn't. - So there's something else there. - It's the interface, man. - Well, could that single source be? - I don't know. - I have heard suggestions that it's AI. - Whoa. - Like an ancient version of artificial intelligence. - An ancient AI. - Yeah, that's one hypothesis. - Oh my God. - Who came up with that idea? - I don't know. I don't know. I know that it was the Jock Vallet which recently mentioned it in passing. I think that's kind of the new. And I don't want to say narrative as if they're kind of like pushing it on us or they're framing it. But that's one theory. But I don't know. I mean, whatever we're looking at, it evolves. It evolves according to our awareness of it. If I didn't, okay, that young girl, when she said, okay, I don't believe that you are my favorite cartoon character. That entity began to glitch in and out. And it was just like, well, what do I become? This gets back to some of the old Collins elite research where there was a paper being passed around. Federal government, they believe that these entities exist in some kind of cryptid consciousness or some kind of alien physics, not extraterrestrial, just alien to us to where the more you believed in. them, but more they would manifest. Yeah. It's very strange. Yeah. There's something there, I think, with belief, you know, because I feel like that's a trait that is common within humans. The more you believe in anything, the more it typically tends to manifest. No matter whether that's a belief or whether that's like you believe your pre-ordained to start a fortune 500 company one day and like you start to live your life according to these beliefs and that it will eventually manifest, right? It's sort of a common theme with lots of things and there's even this, we talked about this recently as well, there's this Hindu zombie cult that's based in Haiti, not Hindu, but it's basically like a zombie cult. It's in Haiti where these dudes, they take this pufferfish venom that like paralyzes their body and then what happens is, according to the tradition is what they do is they bury them as if they're dead and then they exume the body after like a day or so. And they come back as zombies, like they literally walk around acting like zombies and this one bokeh or guy who controls all these zombies can like tell them what to do, they sometimes lock them up. And so this dude, Wade Davis, I believe his name is, did some research on this specifically looking at the pufferfish toxin that these people in Haiti were taking. And he wanted to see if they could do some sort of a study like a placebo controlled study to see like maybe this happens to everybody. And basically the conclusion of it was, it's just the fact that they're taking this drug and there's this historical sort of cultural context that is like intertwined into these people's worldview that makes these people believe they're fucking zombies. And somehow they walk around like zombies and it manifests into all the new generations of people that are born here and raised here inside this culture. So there's this whole cultural, cultural matrix that's involved that helps these people believe. Yeah. Then it's like, okay, what is belief, right? What are its properties? There's a book out there called "Conscious Acts of Creation" in William Tillers and he was a Stanford researcher and he performs this experiment. He's got, again, this group of researchers together. He created what's called an intention imprinted electronic device. And so he places this device in a fair day cage. And it's kind of like calling elite stuff, projecting consciousness and belief and intention into this device. So their goal was to take that device, charge it with intention, belief, and consciousness, place that in another location and change that location's environment. Specifically, they were placing this object near water in the way they would measure the difference and the effects as they would measure the pH level. They wanted to raise it two or three degrees or whatever in the pH. They did that. It was documented that it actually occurred. So they had charged this thing. It's so crazy with intention, belief, and consciousness. And it began to affect that other environment. And what's crazy is when they took that object out, then they rude it from that environment, the effects stopped. So that's another way they measured and realized, okay, it's us that we're doing does. And so it does seem to be a little bit like the reports that we're finding in homes that they very well may be consciousness charged. So much so that in Tillers research, he called those environments, like where they were affecting the environment. They would call that environment. They were conditioned environments. So a lot of this seems to be at least consciousness-based and belief-based, but how much of me believing in the interface of the entity? What does that do? Why would it measure the belief? You know, I asked Barry Fitzgerald this years ago, another researcher in Ireland. Is it possible that the phenomena render itself as to something into something that we would find easier to believe in? And then funnel that belief into the actual source, and then maybe that's why it diversifies itself, right? In other words, if you believe that I am dear Ed, no, you're going to empower me, the person that's actually wearing that mask, same thing with the, I don't know, it's the same thing with all the other things. Well, maybe none of this stuff is real in the sense of the term that we would consider it real. It is just something that lives inside the human psyche. Yes. And the best we can do is try to explain it in the English language or whatever our language is, and normally people, they don't think of something in the context of living inside of consciousness or being enveloped by consciousness only. But if something takes that much of a hold on you, and you really do believe it, to you, that thing seems real. And then you can see how that can sort of develop its own sort of life form in like the lore and the literature and the media and podcasts and stuff like that. And then that narrative can be spun into something, and before you know, it's like this crazy telephone game where now it's like, the whole source of this stuff just gets lost in the chaos of all of the messaging and all of the way people try to communicate it and write it in books and who knows, maybe like fucking ancient source texts of religions and stuff like that. Like, who knows, man? The perhaps the most indigestible theory that I've heard as of late. It's along the lines of the matrix, but within context. So contextually speaking, the matrix is the hologram, it's the virtual reality. But within the movie, that virtual reality was not just being produced by consciousness, it was being produced by what it was ever producing consciousness to produce the construct. Right. It's behind the brain. Yeah. Plug them in. So the most indigestible theory I've heard as of late is that it's not hacking reality, it's hacking belief. It's hacking like literally not just consciousness, but whatever is behind consciousness, that's projecting it. So it's not the matrix. It's whatever is producing the matrix that has been hacked by this phenomenon. Oh, Jesus. Right. That's hard to even comprehend. Well, that would explain why it's okay. It's the black cat. Why? Because it's here. And it can't be here unless it's already here first. So somewhere, yeah, it appears that consciousness itself is hijacked. Let's get to that theory real quick. Let's go back to that very normal case study. If in fact, some of my research is accurate, not saying it is, but just, you know, whatever, that the phenomenon seeks to be seen, what it's what it appears to be doing is it's hijacking consciousness by triggering the observer effect. Yeah. Right. When you observe it, it changes what you're observing. Now, if the phenomenon seeks to be seen, and then observing it creates another interface, right, with that girl, I'm observing the craft, but as I'm observing it, there's something else. Yeah. Which one of those are real or more real and why? Because one's captured on camera. Okay. Exactly. Now, the problem is, again, it's like, is it possible that the phenomenon is sought to be seen so we could collapse the observer effect so that I could hijack the consciousness of the observer to conjure something out of them? And now you have an entirely different craft there, not one wearing the other two, right? Two. Yeah. It is interesting that these things that are like orbs can still be seen by everybody with the naked eye on camera on video, right, but like other people see something else. It's projected to something else inside their heads and communicates to them. It's very hard to understand. It's very strange and then like going back to like the belief part of it too, it kind of ties to what the telepathy tapes thing was doing because like one of the problems I had with the telepathy tapes stuff with these nonverbal autistic kids being able to communicate with their parents and communicate with each other and go to this hill thing or whatever is that like to really test this stuff scientifically, you have to be able to get some sort of a mentalist staging magician in there to actually observe it and make sure there's no fucker going on because any of these mentalists can replicate that stuff with using tricks. And their excuse is that can't happen because then the energy that they bring into the room, the skeptical energy that they have because they don't believe it, that will disrupt their ability to perform. So that's one of my issues with that and it just seems to tie into all of this other stuff somehow. To believe it, then it's true. I just, I don't know, honestly, I'm to the point now in my research where I trust very little about what comes from the government and not that I just trust everything but compared and contrast it to what I know to be true in the field. And I just, I want to say, like, if all we're going to get is disclosure from uFology, and it's okay, I saw a craft in the sky, we've completely missed the moment. Because Lakatsky, again, Lakatsky is like, guys, it's not just UFOs, that's a branch of a paranormal tree. And so if all we're going to do is focus on that and ignore, okay, for instance, here's another reason why we need to focus on Purse Psychology to a degree is like, you know, again, Steve Marish had cases of orbs that will transplace audio recordings on devices where the tape is placed outside of the device in the oracle float over it and imprint a voice into that device and that tape. And they're in two separate places. So again, if all we're going to be saying is, okay, yeah, we have lights in the sky. It's like, okay, that's cool. But it seems like there's more to the story that we're not being told. Yeah, 100%. And it also is very weird that Epstein and all those types of folks are like super interested in this stuff. Yeah. You know, like Epstein was really interested in this Purse Psychology stuff. He even did like the Zoom calls with, he did a Zoom call with, what's that dude's name again? Dean Raiden? Dean Raiden. Yeah, you heard him. And Dean Raiden showed us how he like he told us that he tried to bend spoons his whole life and he never did it until one time he was able to do it and like Epstein called him and wanted him to teach him all about bending spoons and stuff. And he was funding these scientists and he had a fucking ranch right by in New Mexico, close to one of those labs and was really into eugenics and all this stuff. And even like really interested in like ancient Greek stuff, weird. That you combine that with Les Wexner saying that he's possessed by a Deepook. Les Wexner saying he was possessed by a Deepook. Yes, it's weird man. We did he say this? I don't know, whenever I don't know. Finds that. It was in the file. It was in the file. I'm pretty sure. Les Wexner. Is either that or an article, but yeah, possessed by the Deepook and like he's got to do things for it. And sometimes he gets inspiration and like, yeah, it's weird man. I would never admit to that by the way. No, it just be like, you know, I don't know guys. Maybe I'm just successful. Right. Yeah. But you know, he made Epstein made people call him a Megus. Like there was, it's in the files where girls are like literally addressing him in emails by Megus. Yeah. What's that about? It points to him being on closes. Is this it? Oh my god. On the morning, Les Wexner became a billionaire. He woke up worried. But this was not unusual. He always wakes up worried because of his Deepook, which pokes and prods and gives him the itch itchiness of soul that he calls spikes, spilks, cycles, cycles. What the fuck, dude? That's so weird. Well, if you look, okay. And he's yeah, he this dude like owns Ohio. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. I'm from Ohio. So yeah. Yeah. But look at what he's essentially saying. He's talking about the impact at least again, according to between two worlds. And then even Jewish views of the afterlife for those who are book readers, but you can't have that. You know, unless it's the impregnation of the dead in the body of the living. He met his Deepook again when he climbed Vale Mountain and changed his life. What the fuck? They're going all in on this, aren't they? It's crazy. Find more Deepook quotes. What's he getting into here? That's the next one. Les The Wexner's Deepook, the demon that always wakes up in the morning with Wexner and tweaks and pulls at him. When he was a boy, his father called it an unformed, he called. Oh, I'm just gonna keep the line. His father called it tumble, a churning, so he feels molten and unformed, pricked by these spiritual pens and needles. He met his, he met this demon again when he was 40 and already worth half a billion dollars. When he climbed the mountain in front of his house in Vale and almost froze to death and decided to change his life. This demon, he calls terminal cycles, which makes him wander, wander his house from house to house, repeating the pattern of his childhood on a luxurious scale, wanting more, swallowing companies larger than his own. It is precisely the reason that Wexner has a billion and didn't stop at, say, five million and a numerous 80s. Wow, dude, this is wild. When was this written? And who was it published by again? 1985 August and New York Magazine. Yeah, and there's one I read where he actually, you know, say Jim Semi van. Where did you catch that? No Sullivan. Okay, that's about three hours guys. Oh my god. I'm glad that didn't say Jim Semi van. All right. No, something happens to people when they get billions of dollars. They when they when they achieve this sort of like untouchable level where they're just above everything in society. They start to like, they start to get into this angels and demons and like ancient mythology stuff. They start to start to like, they start to try to poke their way into another dimension. It's very odd. It makes me wonder if they're not an avatar themselves. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, who's doing this? You or whatever's inside of you? It's just weird to me. But yeah, I read that almost like lines up. You're hanging out with old Epstein, you know? Yeah, man. It's super strange. I don't know. What, so what do you, what, I mean, are there any descriptions in any ancient literature or anything like this that have a similar theory that there's like some weird source that's behind all this, you know, like masking itself. Like, I know you said jock thinks it's some ancient version of AI. Yeah. I'm going to give you one of the weirdest case studies I've heard and I've done tons of them today. But let's start with the third one. First of all, we need to talk about Shopify so that we can understand how it's really going to be. We need to find out how it's really going to be. We need to find out more about it in the future. In the future, we need to find out more about it in the future. We need to find out more about it. Yeah, in the book "Aerosene Evil", which are literature, and I know a lot of it's been debunked. I don't know that. But there was an instance where an individual was flown out, not on a broom, but just taken out of her home. Her husband wakes up and he still thinks that his wife is in bed, who was taken. She's not. It looks like her, but it wasn't. So they believed it was a familiar spirit. The phenomenon replaced her with. It's really weird. The point being is that when she got back, she told her husband, I thought that I was on the backside of a mountain, copulating with corpses and demons, performing ritual magic. She's like, and this gets back to the Matrix, the virtual reality scenario. I'm going to put it in my terminology. It looks like a frequency that fuzzed out. And now she's seeing where she's actually at. She's not on the backside of a mountain. These weren't demons or corpses. She was being poked and prodded by metallic objects that had the shape of a man, if you know what I mean. And so it was like this kind of ritualistic experiment using technology as well that she was involved in. In the phenomenon had made her think, right? Like, here's where you are. She wasn't anywhere near that location. So this is why I try to stress that, and this is what I got federal governments trying to do too, is like, it's not just esotericism or technology. These are not dichotomies anymore. They're dualities. And that's what Jack Parsons taught us, right? He's like, look, this is not just ritual magic in in rocketry or or rocketry. It's it's both now. It's both. Yeah. And so that's why you have like project gateway. That's why you have the psionic asset, which I haven't even seen this closure to him. you'll see that when I get back to Ohio. But this idea, again, the USSR included this in the article where the brain looks like it actually like a crystal. And you could actually fit something on the head and project your consciousness along with it. And you could use that as a psychotronic weapon to affect people. So this idea that it's one or the other and it's too binary for me. And that's why I have a couple of friends in Brazil and their researchers and their government's doing the same thing. This is kind of what that Satan book talked about a little bit. Now you're you're ringing a bell for me. I remember there's part of that that Jacques Vallet, that French Carmelite book about Satan, where it's a it's again, it's expressing Satan through a very Catholic lens. And it's explaining that. Yeah, this is the cover of it. 666 pages. It's explaining that I heard that. It's explaining that it's not binary. It's not like good and evil. Like that's a misconception. It's saying that Satan is at the highest hierarchy, Sephilim, I believe it's called, of the angelic hierarchy. And he is a perfect being. He's perfect in every way. He has all the knowledge of everything. You can see the future. You can see the past. He understands everything. But he like chooses to do evil and to try to afflict humanity. And he's not an opposer of like he's not an equal and opposite force of God or Yahweh, whatever the fuck you want to call it. He is just like this fallen angel who is constantly trying to afflict humanity and push against it. But he's not just as powerful of God. So it's not this like, it's not this equal and opposite binary force. It's just this like what you said, it's more of like a duality. Yes. And no, I'm aware of what he at least described the book as saying. I recently purchased a book by Professor Astro Morian. It's called God's Monsters. And so she's a she's either still at Union Theological or she left recently. She has another writing another book called Wibba's Divination in Political Literature, both fascinating. God's Monsters starts out by detailing every entity in the Bible, old and new, or at least the Old Testament rather, just old. But the idea at the very end of her theory was that each and every one of them answered a God, every single one of them. And that's kind of messed me up a little bit because something like we got a problem here because one of the questions is, okay, why would God let this happen? And if her theory is correct, it's kind of disturbing. According to the Satan theory, the Satan book theory of why God would let this happen, why would the why would God let the devil do all this stuff and kill people and have children's starve and all this stuff? Is that that makes the human, it makes humanity strive to be greater and to keep humanity vigilant and to drive humans to prayer? That's what it says. So take that with a grain of salt because it's looking at it through a very religious lens. But that's, it doesn't make sense, man. A lot of this stuff, that's the problem with the religious stuff is it's a very, a lot of it is very contradicts itself everywhere. You know, like one of the big things about believing in God to me, which is very contradictory, is that if you believe in God and all omniscient and all omnipotent being, that means he knows everything that's going to happen in the future, that means he can see everything that's going to happen, how things are going to play out in everyone's lives. He knows exactly what's going to happen. Well, if you believe that, that means there is no free will. So if you're going to build your society based off this idea, well, then how the fuck do you even have prisons? If we don't have any control over our own ideas, over our own actions, that means everything we do is justified by God. Well, you can see how that could be like a very dangerous way to- To be just, yeah, I did just with a look at it, a pre-cognition and pre-destination, maybe two separate things, right? I see it happening, but I didn't cause it to happen. Does that make sense? Yeah. There's a lot there. I think now getting back to this, okay, this is crazy too. So what we've learned is that the phenomenon is pre-cognitive, which feeds in, okay, who is it? What is it? Pre-cognitive up to at least 16, months. Steve Mara was running an experiment and he was getting EVP work and where they were telling him where he would be. Different communications from the phenomenon. You'll be at this conference. You'll be doing this. And so it got to a point where now we're back in a Truman show where they told him through some medium where he was going to be at what time. And so he's like, you know what I'm saying? He goes, I decided to do everything backwards, right? He's like, if I was going to do something, I wouldn't do it. Or if I was going to, he's like basically trying to, yeah, right? Like if I was going to turn left that, you know, if I was going to go here for lunch, I decided, it's basically trying to reprogram the matrix, right? This is weird stuff. Yeah, but it still wouldn't work. It still wouldn't work. Because if you, that idea came from somewhere, right? That idea to do that started somewhere. Yes. So like, if I just like that was seated to him through some event, right? That idea to do that for him to make the decision to do the opposite of that. So who's first calls? Exactly. So this gets back to like some of our pilots and people like so astounded that like, well, they knew where our coordinates were, right? Like, okay, so you're, you're radio and back. You're in your, you're your, your, your chat, your, your craft and you're radio and back. And so you're like, okay, here's your undisputed, here's the coordinates. But don't tell anybody. It's like, yeah, but and they show up to the coordinates and a craft is there. It's like, yeah, but who put the thought in the mind of the person who chose the coordinates? The phenomenon on it. So what happened to this person who was trying to live his life in reverse, trying to do everything backwards? Steve Mera, he laid it right back where they told him he'd be. So I was like, all right, what am I supposed to do then? Yeah. There's some trippy stuff out there, man, and in a lot of this points to a construct, I can go into, okay, first of all, I don't know how much time we have, but the scientist thing, okay, when they're all going missing, it's 350. Okay. You don't have to leave here for another hour. Yeah. So the scientist thing, okay, it's not new. Like in the 70s, there were a bunch of scientists that went missing because they were researching the phenomenon. Were they researching the phenomenon? No, to a degree, to physics, you know, that kind of thing. Now, Professor Rene Hardy was, he's an academic. He was a scientific savant. He had like tons of tons of patents. But in the book, Dark Gods, which is another book to read, it'll really freak you out. That's a crazy one. But they talk about this case of Rene Hardy, where he just ends up missing the family finds him deceased and allegedly at his own hand. I mean, we've seen that recently, right with the scientists. Like, why would they do that? They would never do that. Well, likewise, his family was like, okay, like we know him. We were planning on going on vacation or something. You would never do this to himself. He was researching something, you know, private about the phenomenon. But anyways, they have, they have a funeral. So everybody goes was funeral. He's very famous, got very popular in his field. So he's got, you know, like family members, he's got students, he's got fellow professors and faculty there. And the pregnant silence before the funeral begins, the back door is open. Six men walk in. Nobody knows who they are. They sit down, go through the funeral, talk to a couple people and leave. So as families do, they go back home and they're conversing and they're eating and they're like, okay, man, that was crazy. Like, you know, Uncle Ted looks pretty good, you know, he's losing some weight, you know, all that kind of thing. And then one of them goes, yeah, but who are those six men that walked in at the very, you know, the very, very beginning? And like, I have no idea what to do. I remember talking to them. I'm pretty sure, right? I took a photograph of them. I know I did because, you know, they were right behind the, a couple of families like a photograph. So they go back to look at the footage and they never showed up on camera. Danny, men and black and in black. Yeah, part of the construct. Yeah. Show up in the construct. That's what I'm leaning towards. Yeah, these stories are so crazy, man. Yeah, I know. And they're so anecdotal. Yeah, I know it too. And, you know, one of the craziest things to me, though, is how this is all connected to like the space program with like Jack Parsons. Yeah. And all these people like the founders of NASA were just a group of occultists. Yeah. You know, some of the stuff Jack Parsons was doing and saying is just so like some of the ritualistic stuff he was involved in, and his connection to Elrond Hubbard and Halister Crowley, and all that stuff. It's just, you know, the history of that stuff is so wild. Just a bunch of Nazis and occultists who formed NASA and try to figure out how to go to the moon. JPL, I mean, you're for the most part, you're predominantly looking at a self-taught scientist in Jack Parsons. Yeah. And being educated. located on part of the phenomenon. I'm equally as fascinated by Marjorie Cameron, the divine feminine or the elemental that they allegedly conjured. And so, fascinating to me though, is there was a conversation that Marjorie Cameron had with Jack Parsons at the parsnage. She's like, "You know, your ritual must have been successful." And he said, "Why?" And she said, "Because I witnessed some kind of strange craft in the sky." Yeah, very strange stuff. But whatever that is, it kind of falls in line with ceremonial magicians projecting themselves of this reality, wherever we go in the conversation, it's always like, "Oh, well, there it is." You know, there's something very connected to the occult that's present. It's not a buck, and this seems to be a feature. Yeah, I mean, that definitely seems to be like one of the most hardcore pieces of evidence that this stuff is really serious and is really real, because it's a fact that those people were very much involved in that stuff. And, you know, just the history of the space program, and even the symbology of the, they put on these rocket programs like at Invandenberg, and the names of them, like the Apollo program, and all of those things, and how they're connected to all these Greek myths, and you even had the Tim Taylor guy saying, he said something like they visit us, or something on the way there, and then led so asked to, he's like, "It's our sponsors." Or maybe that was Daniel Pissolko, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's about the sponsors, what the fuck is that? This dude's like believing in, he believes in this crazy shit, and he also simultaneously claiming that he downloads information that helps him devise these million-dollar patents, first things. It's too crazy to be real. Yeah, I agree. But it corroborates all of these anecdotal stories that you're talking about, so like you can't, you cannot write any of this stuff off. No, that's one thing this phenomenon has taught me, is that every time I think something's crazy, it's like, no, it'll one out me. And then it'll one out me with something that I know is for sure, and it's like, oh man, so we have to include everything else at least. Right, and also, you can't discount the stuff that these scientists, or not scientists, these astronauts that allegedly went to the moon, like Edgar Mitchell, who did these telep not telepathy, but these ESP experiments on the way to the moon, and stuff like that, and seeing things, and these people were acting very funny. There's something very spooky about the whole Space Program. It is, it's very strange stuff. And I just, I'm wanting to know what esoteric value the government has. Like, what are they doing? You know, when Paseco was talking about like the rituals, or just the ceremonies where you have Barack Obama over here, the leader of the free world, and just look in this direction when we launch this rocket, it's like, well, okay, you've got the leader of the free world doing something. It doesn't really understand, you know, he doesn't know any of this stuff to my knowledge. Yeah, and it's like, but yeah, we're trying to appeal to our sponsors here. Right, it's like, well, what are we talking about here? Who are your sponsors? If that's the leader of the free world, by the way, and you're like, stay here, we've got to appeal to someone else. It just, it makes me wonder like, what do they really know about those? Because it just doesn't make any sense. And by the way, and if they're going to be sigilizing, and carving symbols on a rocket, like, what are we, I just, I don't know, it makes me question the narrative of we have bodies. Okay, for instance, Peter Levento, okay. And he mentioned this on Jesse Michael's podcast. It's fascinating, discussion, but he mentioned being in contact with Michael Aquino. Yeah. And dealing with this idea, idea of non-human biologic. Yeah, he told me that too. He's anyone to a conference in Las Vegas with Michael Aquino. It's like, yeah, but they're like, basically, if I can summarize it, what he suggested was, yeah, like, first of all, he was like, I don't believe in any of that UFO stuff. Like, what? And then he goes, yeah, non-human biologics to us, whatever the term was, it's like, okay, it's just stuff that's collected at the bottom of, you know, the spaceship when it's re-entering Earth's atmosphere. To us, that would be not, it's like, well, is it? God, is it possible like our own federal government is just like, yeah, sure in his guys, giving us words that they know will take home and, yeah, will believe it's one thing. And they did lie to us. They just never gave us the contextual framework to navigate it. Like, this is what I really mean when I say that, but this is what you're going to hear. Yeah, what could they mean? What do you think they could mean? Like, and they're talking about non-human biologics. So, if you look at what Akino said, it was essentially, whenever a spaceship leaves Earth's atmosphere and re-enters, whatever is collected outside of Earth's atmosphere, and then re-enters, that's called, they consider that to be non-human biologics. So it's, we think bodies. So it's basically what they're, what he was applying. So it could just be like microbial stuff. There we got bacteria. There we go. Well, someone just told me that they have this stuff that survives on the outer portion of the International Space Station. Remember, Alyssa Carson was telling us about this. There's some sort of stuff that, there's some sort of bacteria or some sort of like microbial life that is actually being collected and surviving on the exterior of the International Space Station. I mean, that could be considered non-human biologics and the surviving in space. What the fuck is that about? Well, yeah, we have bodies. Okay, it's like, well, what are we talking about here, man? There you go. Whatever the hell that word is. Dino, coke, coke, dinosaur, cokeus, radio durons is the most prominent bacterium known to survive the harsh exterior environment of the International Space Station. Colonies of these radiation resistant bacteria can survive an open space for up to three years. Yeah, who knows, man? I just don't, I question a lot, man. I really do. Yeah, about the narrative. If they're not going to disclose the presence of abductions, then it's not disclosure. That's where I'm at. Well, they got to do one step at a time. It's got to be a slow drip. Yeah. What do you think about? Did you hear the story about, um, allegedly, all these pastors were getting invited to meetings with government officials to talk about this stuff? So they could like, sort of like, slowly inculcate the story into the churches and get them sort of used to it. Then, so one of these pastors went, made a video saying that it was Berlitsyn. What's the, whatever. I forget the first name. Eric Berlitsyn, right. He said that Eric Berlitsyn is the one who basically told him in this meeting with other pastors that there's no God and humanity was career engineered by extraterrestrials or something like this. And then, and then Eric Berlitsyn came out and was like, no, this is completely false. I never said this. And then the guy actually recanted it. I was like, oh, I'm sorry. Yes. I had a meeting with Eric, but he was telling me stuff. And then I started to just regurgitate what I believed. So, but I don't know. I don't know what to believe there. I really don't either. Um, my good friend, Tony Merkel was there. He has a podcast called Festivals. But nice guy, love and death. So I don't know if there was one or three meetings because you also have Perry Stone coming out, right. Coming out, and he was like, oh, yeah, that I can, I can say, that that actually did take place. And then it's like, well, these other group of people were at one meeting and that didn't take place there. But then the same people that had briefed, like the first group had briefed like the rest, it was, it was, it's confusing to me. Yeah. I really don't know what's going on there. I could tell you this much, that, um, that the Catholic Church, at least from a priest that we're, let's see if I can contact with, or at least Steve is, uh, this priest disclosed, yes, we are. You know, we've been briefed on some of that. So I don't know. But again, here's the problem. And this is just from my perspective, when you have people like Anna Pillingoluno who's being given stuff, you know, and, and she's going to say, okay, this is what it looks like to me, right. And the problem with that is that if you don't know the phenomenon, right, or if you don't know the research, don't know the history of this thing, it would kind of just be like, okay, I'm going to reframe into my world of you. And that's what this is. And then next thing you know, you have like AI, AI renderings of angels. And it's like, that's not even what, it just, it, it disturbs me. Um, but I, I'm interested in why our government would believe that they created us. Is it possible? I don't think they believe you don't think so. No. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think if they were going to tell us something that's crazy as that. I don't believe that they would actually tell us, if that was the truth, I don't think they would say it. Probably hide it. There's probably some sort of, some sort of mechanism there that is intended to impregnate some sort of belief into the public psyche. Or it, yeah, it's some sort of psychological operation or something like that. Or maybe it's, yeah, or maybe it's just like a distraction or just a way to just poison the well and get people fighting and arguing online. There's, there's a million, there's a million, that's the problem. There's a million reasons why they would do something like that. Right. And I think one of the least plausible reasons is that they would say it because it's true. I don't think that they would disclose it to us if it was true. I mean, that wouldn't just destabilize religion. That would create other questions. Who created them? If they created us, who created them? Right, then you'd have like, it'd be hitches at Linux going back, you know. And you know, you didn't even say, well, I don't know. Bees it up! It opens up a lot more questions that people realize. It's like, okay, well, if we're supposed to be an accent, and they're even more sophisticated, you know, are they an accident too? It's just convoluted for me. Yeah, it really is. Thanks for doing this, bro. - Thanks for having me. - Yeah, my pleasure, had fun. Working people learn more about your work and find your stuff online, all that. - So, I'm just on, I don't do social media much. I'm on Instagram, I have my own platform called Paris Symposium. You have people who want to support my work and find more of it. My YouTube channel, Nathaniel Gillis, and then I'm doing any chat discussions with my buddy Steve Mirroins. - Okay. - That's where I'm at, man. Thank you for having me on, brother. - Thank you. - My auntie kicked in, dude, now was everywhere at once. So, I appreciate it. - My pleasure, man, I really enjoyed it. We have Patreon questions for 'em. We do. - All right, we got some Patreon questions for you. So, we'll cut the podcast here, and we're gonna go to Patreon. - Okay. - Thanks again, bro. - Good night, world.