#400 - Astrobiologist: What NASA Isn’t Telling Us About Mars | Alyssa Carson

Today's episode is brought to you by Apple Ads. Ads on Apple Maps are changing the way local businesses get discovered. Reach customers when it counts, right when they turn I'm looking into I'm going. They're in decision-making mode, actively searching for businesses like yours and deciding where to go. Customers can easily call you, visit, and more from the same place they're viewing your ad. And all of this happens on Apple Maps, a privacy-first environment that respects customers and helps them discover new places. Get started with ads on Apple Maps today, and for a limited time, receive 15% credit back on your monthly ad spend for a year, up to $1,000 per month. Terms apply. Head to ads.apple.com slash maps to get started. Drive business like never before with ads on Apple Maps. This episode is sponsored by She's Birdie. You lock the hotel room door, then check it again, and maybe one more time. Because even the nicest room can feel unfamiliar at night. That's why She's Birdie created BirdieBox. With She's Birdie, you can bring peace of mind with you. BirdieBox is a portable travel door alarm for hotels, dorms, Airbnbs, and any type of hotel. It's a portable travel door alarm for hotels, dorms, Airbnbs, and any type of hotel. And anywhere you stay away from home. Just attach it to the door frame, switch it on. And if someone opens the door, BirdieBox blasts a loud siren and flashing alarm to alert you and everyone nearby. Because the best part of travel isn't worrying. It's sleeping soundly. BirdieBox from She's Birdie. Locking in peace of mind wherever you stay. For safer, more confident travel, visit She'sBirdie.com. That's S-H-E-S-B-I-R-D-I-E dot com. Are you really going to be the first person to go to Mars? Sure you want to do that? Yeah, I don't know, obviously. But I will certainly put in a good effort to do it. I think I've always had an interest in wanting to contribute to the space industry. And really for me, I think I've done a lot to almost separate my dreams and ambitions from things I've done before. And I think I've done a lot to almost separate my dreams and ambitions from things I've done before. And so I had this initial interest in wanting to become an astronaut, get involved in space, locked in super quick with the idea of wanting to go to Mars, mostly because I thought that was my only option. Like when I was a kid and hearing about how, you know, we've already sent people to the moon, I was like, well, when I grow up, Mars is the only option that I can go to. Like that's the only thing I'm going to be able to do if I want to be an astronaut. So I got super locked in on Mars. And, you know, as like I got more and more interested, I think I started understanding, of, okay, here's what I can do to work towards becoming an astronaut. And then also at like what point is it, you know, okay, it's someone else making that decision. You know, I can do all this work to make the best resume possible. And then at that point, I'll give it my best effort. But at the end of the day, it's someone choosing those things, right? I have to apply to the astronaut selection process, get selected. And then even from there, I mean, depending on which mission you get selected on. So I think really my dreams have focused so much on the things that I can control. And then we'll see. Yeah, didn't I saw recently that Elon actually scrapped his goal to go to Mars. And now he like dialed it back to the moon. He's like, we need to go to the moon first. Did you see that? Yeah, I did. What did you think about that? You know, I think that Mars was almost like jumping the gun a little bit with a lot of ambitions that there were surrounding it. I mean, Mars has been a hot topic, I mean, for so long. It's just been such. A area of interest. Obviously, Mars is literally the most studied planet second to Earth, right? So we've just sent so many rovers, satellites, things we've learned so much about the planet. And so that's created such this interest and draw to it. And I think that there's even still today, I think there's still some challenges that especially technology challenges and just the aspect of, you know, keeping humans alive for that extent of time on a long term mission. And so there's just a lot of things to figure out. So I. I think a lot of these like early ideas of wanting to go to Mars, as I said, was almost jumping the gun just because there were still so many issues to figure out before we could get there or like put a hard date on it. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of improvements in that area. You know, I think that we've made a lot of progress and making like a mission to Mars more realistic. And there's been you know, it's starting to become more and more of a possibility. But yeah, I think it makes perfect sense that we're kind of like going back to the moon first testing a lot of these systems because I mean, geez, it's been. Since the 1970s that we've done deep space travel and sure, that's different technologies, that's a different type of space travel, you know, different periods of time in space. Obviously, it's a whole new rocket, whole new systems, all that has to get tested first. So I do think it's a good call. But yeah, I think finally maybe a little sense came to to what it takes to actually do the Mars mission. Yeah. So explain like what your goal is as far as like being becoming like an actual astronaut. Like how did. Like. Like how much training have you been through and like what does it take to be like one of the people that gets chosen and who does the choosing? Yeah. So I think that for me, my first interest was just wanting to become an astronaut. I didn't really know when an astronaut was inherently. I mean, I started learning a little bit about the space industry. And then when I was young, I went to space camp in Huntsville and that was like my dad always says, like, that was my Disney World. Like you got to ride simulators, you got to meet astronauts. And so I felt like I was learning so much about the space industry. Like from just going to to camp there. And I think that's when I started forming like, OK, there's like different jobs, right? You can be a scientist, you can be a pilot, you can be a doctor. There's so many different routes you can go. And then that's when I think I started shifting. OK, an astronaut isn't really a job that you can pursue, right? You can't go to college and study astronauting. And so then I was like, OK, what do I want to do from there? And I didn't really know. I mean, it started just like an inquisitory thing of like, what do I want to do? Like, would I want to be a pilot? Would I want to go to the military? Would I want to just do science? And so really, my childhood was figuring a lot of those things out and almost trying different things. But it was through like a lot of like almost physically trying them and figured out that I really was interested in a lot of the science aspect of it. Now I'm an astrobiologist, so I fell really into the field of astrobiology. And that was just kind of natural progression of like figuring out what these interests were. And then from there, working on building that resume to apply to the astronaut selection process. So NASA has an astronaut selection process that they open up every few years. It's usually at random. So it's not like they're always in need of astronauts, right, because they already have astronauts. So it's mostly just, you know, when they're in need for a new class, they'll open that selection process up, send in an application. And really, there's not too many requirements. So you know, you have to hold at least a master's. You have to. Really? Yeah. You just have to have a master's in some sort of STEM. If you're coming from more of a pilot background, I think it's like a thousand hours flight like flight hours, have a little work experience, and then you're eligible to apply. So there's not many requirements in order to apply. So I took that as, okay, how can I build the best resume? What are things I can do to almost enhance that? Because it's like, I have a master's, well, so does 18,000 of the other applicants, right? And so it's starting to now try to differentiate yourself in that way. So that's really what I was looking into, trying to find these like unique opportunities to almost add stuff to the resume. And yeah, so I mean, I guess as far as things that I've done or been interested in, I mean, I did like scuba diving and skydiving as like an aspect of learning more about some of those like less gravity environments. So you know, NASA uses like underwater to simulate like long duration microgravity in a way. They like train underwater in Houston in their pool. They're doing some of those environments. I got involved with IIAS, which is like a citizen science research institute. So it's like normal people, but it's conducting like real research. So with them, I got to work with a spacesuit company, try on spacesuits, got to do microgravity flights, atmospheric imaging. And I think that really like was a lot of the beginning that got me super interested in research, which is why I'm in a PhD program now and like heavily pursuing, I guess, the research side of things. Yeah. A lot of those just experiences were really, I guess, to build on the resume, but really just genuine interest in a lot of these different fields. And I feel like I learned a wide variety of like different fields within the space industry and then slowly found like my niche within it. Now, when you say you did scuba diving, did you actually go into like those giant pools where they put you in those like big contraptions and spin you around and stuff? Yeah. So I've done, you know, obviously like normal scuba diving. And then so I did that. I've also done like the Aquanaut certification, which is where you like stay underwater for a full 24 hours. And so you go inside of like, I mean, you're in a facility, but it's still submerged. So it's almost like living inside of a scuba tank is how they describe it in terms of like the effect on your body and like you're living in that environment. So I did that, which was honestly really cool. Got pizza delivered down there, which was awesome. Oh, so there's like, you're like in a bubble underwater. You're like in like a facility, but it's like fully submerged. It was like 30 feet down. Um, so I did that as like a way to, uh, honestly just understand living. in like a habitat environment but as far as what you're talking about with the you know the big pools not the one at nasa johnson but i did do a very similar we were almost creating a mock-up of very similar so like our own version of that and we had like a full contraption underwater it was in a big pool rather than using spacesuits i was involved in kind of the initial testing of the system so we were in full scuba gear but using like a full face so the yeah where you can you know still communi have communications built in and we did like a simulation of testing like a spacewalk underwater in it so we had like the the build out and they were eventually going to take that to then use for like spacesuit testing but i was helping them with that like initial um getting it all built and put together so that was really fun were you were you like the only how old were you when you did that um that was probably a few years ago so maybe 2021 22-ish so for sure the youngest person um yeah i was almost almost any and everything that i've done i've probably a 10-year gap between you and the next person yeah i've certainly been the youngest at like everything but it's been um i don't know it's been fun i think that a lot of the time i've been able to like really show that like young people can have really serious interests in a lot of these fields and so you know very grateful to to i asked because when i like first first started with them i was only like 15 and they were like still open to to having me involved in things and so they've just been so wonderful and including me in a lot of this and yeah like the idea of being one of the first people to go to mars is pretty scary like is you do you still think about it the same way now that you did when you were like 16. um i mean i guess yes and no i mean i think that i really do think about like my interest in wanting to become an astronaut and even with the mars thing you know i really just want to as a goal contribute to the space industry in any capacity and whatever makes the most sense you know i think my goals really align with obviously the overarching goals i want the best people who go on that first mission to mars to be the best possible candidates so you know i don't know for sure if that's me i would love to um you know tell you that i'm for sure gonna go but i think really for me i i really want the success of the space industry and i want to be able to contribute to it and you know if that ends up becoming a part of the mission then that's great if that is a part of like the research that aids in the mission that's great too and so i think that um that's really i think the biggest difference from like a lot of those initial goals to like where i am now is you know i just think that the space industry is such a unique one that um i just feel like i've learned so much about it and it's such a a community and it's such um a space that i think is really important that we continue to pursue and continue to succeed in and so i think that's why my interests now are so much of just whatever the success and whatever the best case scenario is for us continuing that exploration i think is what's most important yeah so like what are the logistics of actually actually before actually that so so elon pulled it back to the moon but is nasa still does they still have a plan or like a schedule as far as at least trying to get to mars so nasa i think is still interested in mars um there's not i guess official statement or timeline but a lot of the art the current artemis program is setting up a potential for a mars mission um and so they certainly are still interested but it may be like a joint effort so i mean even with a lot of the current artemis program and going back to the moon it is joint efforts with commercial companies so i'm pretty sure like the lander systems and everything for the uh like lunar mission is coming from like commercial companies so some parts are nasa some parts are commercial companies which really is not that surprising nasa has always used like private contractors i mean lockheed martin i mean it's kind of that same aspect except now you're having spacex blue origin be some of those contractors so it's certainly a collaborative effort so i think you know the same thing may be true with the mission to mars you know parts of it may be nasa it may be a nasa rocket but then you know commercial other systems habitat you know spacex having being the provider of the habitat system or like the lander system so i think it's certainly going to be a collaborative effort as far as timeline goes i mean nasa has stated they are working on getting back to the moon um having the next artemis 3 will test those lander systems artemis 4 plans to land on the moon and then we'll kind of see if we can get them to land on the moon and then we'll kind of see from there i know that they want to establish permanent presence is the term that they're saying for the moon right um so some sort of habitat system some you know whatever they claim as like you know so who knows how many missions that will take to accomplish their goal of permanent presence and then mars will certainly come in but they're still certainly working on a lot of the technologies and ideas of getting to mars so i would certainly not count them out for her for a mission but i think it's going to be a collaborative effort i think it's going to the artemis thing was so funny to me um because when i had uh i had tim dodd in here the guy from everyday astronaut and and he was when he was here they were supposed to launch it like the following week and they kept pushing it because of weather and all that stuff and they eventually did it on april fool's day i was joking with some of my friends and i was like was there i would love to be in those meetings in nasa and just be a fly on the wall to hear like understand was there any logical technical reason they couldn't do it on the second like why the first yeah you know i think that they just didn't care that it was april fool's day mainly i'm sure they had to have thought of that like yeah i think they said hey guys can we do the second they certainly did yeah i mean really so the launch windows are just placed solely for the sake of like trajectories so like if we launch which days can we launch and have the correct trajectory that they're going to accomplish their mission and so that's why you know there was only a few days of the each month that they could potentially launch on and it's funny because you could say like yeah sure we could have done it on the second but then it also what if the first would have launched but then the second got scrubbed and the third got scrubbed now we're pushed to may may even june who knows you know and so it's you want to take advantage of any good opportunity that you have yeah and so because there was no guarantee we could have gone on the second there could have been weather delays it could have been anything and so it's really just making the most of any opportunity you can to keep the mission moving forward because i mean as you said it was already delays from other issues and it was supposed to go on february then march and so it was really just taking advantage of the best possible moment and i mean it was like a to a t almost like perfect launch it launched like at the beginning of the launch window i mean it was it was crazy and i think they used the the um the thruster from the space shuttle i think or the engines from the original space shuttle which is kind of nuts yeah so they were i know for sure they were refurbishing a lot of the the old engines um from the space shuttle program and that was like a big part of kind of with the artemis program as a whole and then i mean even i mean there's a lot of refurbishing which is kind of good to see because they're you know the space industry has been almost wasteful you could say in a way um looking back at like the history of it you know the amount of stuff that is spent and having to build a whole new rocket for every mission and that's been a big advantage i think too of like commercial space it's brought in a lot of like the reusability but i mean even like the orion spacecraft that the astronauts just flew in that will get refurbished and potentially used on another artemis mission so we'll take a look at and try to reuse it again if you enjoy watching our show on spotify or youtube and you want to be more involved i encourage you to please come check out our patreon community not only does our patreon community get every episode you see on youtube early fully uncensored and ad free but we're also doing patreon exclusive episodes as well as live q and a's and you can get your personal questions answered by our guests every single week for me being able to collaborate and communicate back and forth with our patreon community every week has been huge and this is my way of saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month now back to the show how many how many windows of opportunity are there to launch to mars every year isn't it isn't it true there's only a few of them yeah so it's pretty like minimal um i mean it's really uh i mean i don't know if i'd have like an exact number it really just depends on like the way the planets are orbiting because right sometimes mars is really far away from us and sometimes it's much closer to us yeah and so you'd want to launch at like the closest possible opportunity um and you know sometimes there's an opportunity to launch it may not be like the best opportunity but like you can launch um but certainly like calculating those trajectories that's a little past my pay grade that's uh that's what uh all the really smart what's this say steve-o well this is basically what she's talking about like yeah because uh because the planets are so slow to rotate okay there's like a sweet spot and then you have to wait until the next year oh yeah it's on the other side of the sun yeah so you're almost like playing a game of like catch up so like when you launch you're just trying to catch up to where mars is like going to be at like a later point yes and i mean it's the same thing that they do with um when they send like satellites or like anything to mars right it's always trying to to make sure that you align because i think currently nasa plans to send a new satellite to mars in 2028 um and that's going to be going and testing a new i guess propulsion system um that's oh really yeah so they're gonna be looking at nuclear propulsion uh for this mission and that's a potential that i know has been talked about for a while because they're trying to look at reducing the timeline of getting to mars because that's that's the biggest i would say personally and uh is the biggest issue with getting to mars is how long it takes to get there um yeah how long does it currently take with our current technology yeah so like current engines and stuff you're looking like six to nine months is like the the timeline and then obviously if you were to have a human mission you'd want to stay there for a little chunk of time and then obviously with the trajectories you may even end up being there for a long time before you're able to come back and then another six to nine months i mean it's just a really really long mission and that's what i think makes it challenging i think that you know we're used to having astronauts in space for a year you know astronauts have lived on the international space station for a year at a time but it's really just how long the mission is compared to what we've seen before um and i think that if we're able to shorten the timeline to mars and make it a more reasonable timeline then the mission becomes a lot more possible yeah so tell me about this nuclear propulsion stuff i've never heard of this yeah so it was we ever used it before no i think um i think this mission to mars is going to be the first that they're like really using it for and that is going uh it was like recently um the nasa administrator said because he kind of was aligning or laying out some of the plans for like the next artemis missions and then also mentioned this mars mission uh so like i said i think it's planned for 2028 we'll see if that timeline gets met but i do know that it has this satellite being launched yes yes yes so it's um it's going to just kind of be testing this propulsion system which i know is something that has been worked on for a while because what a lot of what i was like hearing was that the big goal was to try to reduce a mission to mars timeline from six months to six weeks to make it a way more reasonable timeline wow so that was the ultimate goal um so i'm not sure if this will i guess we'll see whenever this mission goes you know how long it takes and how much of an improvement this propulsion is but um i do know that it's been a big goal for a long time today's episode is brought to you by apple ads ads on apple maps are changing the way local businesses get discovered reach customers when it counts right when they turn i'm looking into i'm going they're in decision-making mode and they're in decision-making mode actively searching for businesses like yours and deciding where to go customers can easily call you visit and more from the same place they're viewing your ad and all of this happens on apple maps a privacy first environment that respects customers and helps them discover new places get started with ads on apple maps today and for a limited time receive 15 credit back on your monthly ad spend for a year up to one thousand dollars per month terms apply head to ads.apple.com slash maps to get started try business like never before with ads on apple maps this episode sponsored by she's birdie you lock the hotel room door then check it again and maybe one more time because even the nicest room can feel unfamiliar at night that's why she's birdie created birdie box with she's birdie you can bring peace of mind with you birdie box is a portable travel door alarm for hotels dorms airbnbs and anywhere you stay away from home just attach it to the door frame switch it on and if someone opens the door birdie box blasts a loud siren and flashing alarm to alert you and everyone nearby because the best part of travel isn't worrying it's sleeping soundly birdie box from she's birdie locking in peace of mind wherever you stay for safer more confident travel visit she'sbirdie.com that's s-h-e-s-b-i-r-d-i-e.com yeah and what are some of the other like uh biggest hurdles as far as traveling to mars other than the time right because the time is an insane one yeah you kind of have to be like to be the person that's going to be willing to do that you kind of like you got to be able you got to be willing to kiss your whole life goodbye right because there's a good chance you're not going to come back yeah i think that for like a mission to mars i think yeah i personally think timeline is our number one biggest issue just because a lot of the other issues that are with the mars mission we've semi combated them before or like maybe not to the extent of like a mission to mars but there's been almost like similar scenarios um i think at least for the first missions i don't think there's going to be a possibility of a one-way mission at least especially from nasa themselves so unless it's like elon or like a private industry pursuing some sort of one way i don't think nasa will ever do a one-way mission no so they uh um have always been i guess the core of their goal is to you know have this scientific expedition scientific discovery and then bring the astronauts home so i don't think mars will be different and i don't think they will do a mars mission until the option of a return is possible so you know i think that if they're pursuing a mars mission it's because there's like the means of coming back um so we'll see if that delays the timeline and making sure that we have more technology to get there and you know that maybe opens room for i guess commercial endeavors if they if they have that interest but yeah i think a lot of of the mars mission will certainly be a multi-way um but not to say that a one-way isn't possible in the future but i think that for like the first missions will certainly have returns yeah and then what the radiation must be a huge problem yeah i think radiation would certainly be the next um you know second to time the timeline just because yeah it's dangerous and um it is certainly a challenging one i know that a big idea especially even for on the moon you know is looking at having like habitats and stuff subsurface so going like having the actual habitat be beneath the surface so that way you have the chance of mars protecting you from some of that radiation while you're there um and then there's also been a bunch of ideas of like actually protecting the capsule or like whatever you're in um but obviously there's plenty of ideas but nothing's like set in stone what is this steve oh this is an article about it yes history and mysteries surround nasa's 2028 nuclear mars mission fission powered space flight a 60-year dream would supercharge the outer solar system exploration so is this going to like literally be like a nuclear detonation when it when it launches or okay nearly all of today's space missions rely on chemical rockets uh which require vast quantities of heavy fuel and are comparatively slow instead nuclear electric propulsion nep relies on fission to generate heat which gets converted to electricity via a gas turbine this power in turn ionizes a gas propellant into a plasma that shoots continuously out of the thrusters wow yeah so i would say so the actual like satellite system that they're using for this that's going to have the nuclear propulsion the actual rocket that's launching off of earth will not have nuclear so they'll still launch it from earth as if it was like normal and then they'll deploy the actual satellite that has the nuclear propulsion and then that satellite will then take off to mars using the nuclear propulsion so it will essentially get like turned on how far will the rocket go uh probably just a low earth orbit so and the satellite will have a separate propulsion propulsion system that will shoot it into mars yeah so almost all like rockets are just going to be like your vessel to get to space once you're in space then because so much of the rocket gets like used up right right just by the time it gets to space so that's why even like with the artemis mission the solid rocket boosters they're spent they get taken off they they jettison you know kind of the big core stage that gets jettisoned you use up all that fuel the hardest part about getting to space is leaving earth just because all of that gravity you need so much thrust you need so much fuel that's the hard part that's why rockets are so big and they take so much fuel but once you're in space you know you have much more flexibility there's you don't have all those forces fighting you so more than likely they'll use you know i mean they may even use like a spacex rocket or a um or a nasa rocket or you know delta heavy whatever it takes for for the satellite to just get it to space and then they'll deploy it and it's gonna be using that that nuclear power to to actually get to mars and that's going to be the the interesting part and for the mars mission once you have to refuel in like that in like orbit or something so i think it just kind of depends on what the mission is going to look like i mean there's possibilities i mean you could have a case where you go from earth to the moon you know maybe do like a fuel stop um depending on how big of a vessel you have actually going to mars you could have enough fuel to to go there so i think it just kind of depends on what it ends up looking like i know some ideas have been like almost having like a miniature international space station almost being like the vessel of going to mars so like you'll launch and then you'll dock with almost this miniature space station and then that's going to be the thing going to mars so it just depends on what logistically works out i mean again with the mars mission since it's so theoretical there's so many ideas of possibilities of what we could do with sending humans to mars but like obviously nothing's been like concrete selected for it right how much testing and trial and error and how much experimentation is being done or over floated around on how to logistically get people there safe like do they do do you know if they know like will you go to sleep for the six months that you're traveling there and go into like a hibernation or like how much of that stuff has actually been thought about yeah i think there's been a lot i think space is as a whole it's always long term you can't do anything fast in the space industry not a single idea or a single thing that we see happen is you know a quick endeavor i mean even you look at the artemis mission that just launched right the artemis mission or i guess you can even go back to artemis one which didn't have humans on it but it was the start of the artemis program i mean that was in you know a few years ago and that has been an endeavor since the space shuttle program ended in 2011. so from 2011 to now is how long it's taken to you know build this new rocket get it going actually have it on the launch pad and make it a reality and so it's really funny because like from someone that like hears so much of like what's going on the space industry you know the public's like oh my gosh this rocket just shot up overnight and now it's taking astronauts like is it safe um but you know it's been tested for you know over 10 years now and so it's been an endeavor that's been happening and the mars mission is no different i mean there's a lot of also just like academic research that goes into a lot of this too so like universities i mean there's people that will do like human studies and you do like analog missions and they have humans practicing that human human interaction of how would it be to be in a mars habitat for uh that period of time and so there's a lot of those different types of research that's been i mean happening for many years and i think we'll continue to kind of gather that data in preparation for a future mars mission right and um so in 20 in 2033 i believe it i read something that said earth is going to be the closest it's ever been to mars in like thousands of years so that would be the optimal window 2033. but that seems very aggressive yeah no i i'm i 100 agree i mean i've i've heard 2033 for a really long time yeah with how much it kind of aligns and just from a trajectory standpoint and how much of a benefit it would be that mars is closest to earth and closer to the earth and that's kind of what's going on in the universe and i think it's going to be closer than it has been in a really long time uh i do agree that i think 2033 is a very ambitious goal up to this point and i think it's you know space travel again it's such a slow process and so you know things anytime something gets like delayed or pushed back it just kind of makes it more difficult so i guess we'll see you never know but i would think that especially from nasa's perspective if they are planning to have some sort of launch or i guess habitat thing by 2028 on the moon and that's going to be some of those initial missions to the moon then you know a 2033 you know mission just seems way too close to a lot of these like lunar missions yeah well it would be probably a better if you could launch from the moon you know yeah you can set up launch pads on the moon or somehow get enough resources there it would be probably far easier yeah so i mean i think that that's been a big idea and that's why it almost shifted you know for a while i mean what we see today as the artemis program has been definitely reworked a lot of times because originally after the space shuttle program ended we had what was called the constellation program then that got scrapped and then it's kind of slowly merged into what we see as current day artemis and i think a lot of the initial ideas was going to be let's go to mars and then after looking into going to mars it was then okay wait maybe we're going back to the moon first maybe the moon is like a launch pad to mars and so it's just been a lot of iterations of what this is going to look like and i think that that's why kind of we're at the point of we are going back to the moon we're going to kind of re-establish ourselves as you know doing deep space travel you know accomplishing something that has been done but in a new way with new technologies and then see how we can utilize that as a resource for even deeper space flight and this just popped into my head i remember this because when i talked to tim dodd was we found there was this article that talked about this discovery of this fungus have you seen it this chernobyl fungus that was found in chernobyl where there was a nuclear meltdown yeah decades ago yeah and allegedly there's this like fungi that's growing in like ground zero of chernobyl and they found that it actually eats radiation so they're hypothesizing that this mysterious black fungus could be used in the space capsules or the people where they're transporting these people across deep space and it could protect them from the from the radiation show the uh the first what does the first paragraph of it say mold found at the site of chernobyl nuclear disaster appears to be feeding off radiation so they're they're thinking that they could use this to shield the space travels from the cosmic rays insane yeah i mean honestly this is a lot of i mean my current research and kind of what i do within astrobiology is certainly like that melting pot between microbiology in and space travel so you know working with organisms in space space-like environments and so honestly organisms i think are so fascinating and which is why i've kind of gone into into this route of research but i think it's something that we are certainly going to learn more about i mean even aside from you know using organisms to maybe eat radiation we're also learning a lot of organisms that are able to survive on the outside of the international space station and and survive in the vacuum of space and they are yeah so there's been um a lot of this is also kind of more you know current and academic research but they did like an experiment um i go to an astrobiology conference and so it's really fun to kind of hear a lot of these like new uh like research studies but they were having astronauts like swab the outside of their gloves like while they were outside on an eva and then they're basically growing that to see if anything is coming out i mean tardigrades have always been a big area of conversation um which is basically this this organism um that's been a big part of the conversation um which is basically this this organism um that's been a big part of the conversation um which is basically this this organism um that's um that's been a big part of the conversation um that's is that they've put on the outside of the is that they've put on the outside of the is that they've put on the outside of the international space station international space station international space station and it just survives it comes back and it just survives it comes back and it just survives it comes back it um it certainly it's able to put up it um it certainly it's able to put up it um it certainly it's able to put up with the radiation with the radiation with the radiation it's able to um to really evolve in it's able to um to really evolve in it's able to um to really evolve in organisms they adapt so quickly and organisms they adapt so quickly and organisms they adapt so quickly and they're able to adapt obviously much they're able to adapt obviously much they're able to adapt obviously much more quickly than humans are and so i more quickly than humans are and so i more quickly than humans are and so i because honestly they're much more because honestly they're much more because honestly they're much more adaptable than we are and so if they're adaptable than we are and so if they're adaptable than we are and so if they're able to you know survive in these able to you know survive in these able to you know survive in these environments then you learn so much environments then you learn so much environments then you learn so much about those systems and uh and how about those systems and uh and how about those systems and uh and how those work and see you know how that can those work and see you know how that can those work and see you know how that can be used for for other things now we have be used for for other things now we have be used for for other things now we have not found any evidence of any kind of not found any evidence of any kind of not found any evidence of any kind of microorganisms on mars yet right so yeah microorganisms on mars yet right so yeah microorganisms on mars yet right so yeah we have not so um my research uh we have not so um my research uh we have not so um my research uh specifically does look at the potential specifically does look at the potential specifically does look at the potential of organisms growing especially in like of organisms growing especially in like of organisms growing especially in like a past mars situation a past mars situation a past mars situation um because from what we know about um because from what we know about um because from what we know about current day mars uh it's current day mars uh it's current day mars uh it's not great not great it does look not great not great it does look not great not great it does look pretty inhabitable you know you have pretty inhabitable you know you have the radiation which is your bigger issue the radiation which is your bigger issue the radiation which is your bigger issue but looking at mars's past we think it but looking at mars's past we think it but looking at mars's past we think it used to be a lot more similar to earth used to be a lot more similar to earth used to be a lot more similar to earth so in like the early stages so in like the early stages so in like the early stages of of mars and the formation of the of of mars and the formation of the of of mars and the formation of the solar system we think you know it used solar system we think you know it used solar system we think you know it used to have liquid water we think it used to have liquid water we think it used to have liquid water we think it used to be much more habitable and so by to be much more habitable and so by looking at that we can also test looking at that we can also test looking at that we can also test organisms in those environments to see organisms in those environments to see organisms in those environments to see how how they react and if they would be how how they react and if they would be how how they react and if they would be able to survive so organisms that we able to survive so organisms that we able to survive so organisms that we know of here that already survive and know of here that already survive and know of here that already survive and maybe some unique environments are they maybe some unique environments are they maybe some unique environments are they then able to survive in those unique then able to survive in those unique then able to survive in those unique environments like we saw on early day environments like we saw on early day environments like we saw on early day mars well elon was saying that mars well elon was saying that there's so much ice on mars there's so much ice on mars there's so much ice on mars not even at the poles like all around not even at the poles like all around not even at the poles like all around mars that's just covered in dust he said mars that's just covered in dust he said mars that's just covered in dust he said if you were to heat up that planet if you were to heat up that planet if you were to heat up that planet he believes that you would have he believes that you would have he believes that you would have mild deep oceans covering about 40 of mild deep oceans covering about 40 of mild deep oceans covering about 40 of it it it and he thinks that about four about four and he thinks that about four about four and he thinks that about four about four billion years ago it was a blue planet just like earth just like earth just like earth and that we possibly came are we i think and that we possibly came are we i think and that we possibly came are we i think there's a a large consensus of there's a a large consensus of there's a a large consensus of astrobiologists that believe life astrobiologists that believe life astrobiologists that believe life started on mars started on mars started on mars yeah there certainly is a a theory of you yeah there certainly is a a theory of you yeah there certainly is a a theory of you know if mars used to be more similar know if mars used to be more similar know if mars used to be more similar to earth then you know was that maybe to earth then you know was that maybe to earth then you know was that maybe somewhere that that humans used to to survive. But we know, we know for sure. And I mean, again, Mars is such a well-studied planet at this point, but we are, we really are learning a lot about, you know, how much water was on Mars and where it came from. And we also think, you know, Mars used to be more in that like habitable zone. So we think of, you know, earth being in the habitable zone where you can have liquid water. And so we think Mars used to be a little bit more in that habitable zone. Right. And then it's kind of slowly shifted outward kind of in the formation of things. And again, geological timelines. I mean, this is over the span of millions and millions of years, but you know, with, with the way we used to, or think Mars used to look, it just used to have a lot more potential, especially than what we see from today. So that's why there's always been that, that interest in what could be there or what used to be there. And yeah, there's still a lot of interest. I think there's kind of a bit of a balance, I guess, because I'm, my research is certainly in the possibility of microorganisms that used to live on Mars. or even if there's any way to find things and we're still discovering stuff i mean we recently just discovered a whole new slew of new minerals that uh the curiosity rover just discovered um honestly it was a new paper that just came out they found some minerals that we hadn't classified yet um and so that was really interesting um to look at on mars yeah so they're constantly sampling mars with the with the rovers and so with that they are you know collecting new samples and some minerals we've seen in like meteorites that have come from mars um and then some we've seen with like other you know collections but this one had a few new ones and so that's been really interesting so there's still so much we don't know so it's so hard because it's it's easy to jump to so many conclusions and really science as a whole is always jumping to conclusions i guess you almost have to roll with some unknowns but yeah yeah we're still we're still learning so much about mars that we didn't even know previously so it's it's going to be interesting and why a lot of interest is in a human mission right because we have these rovers they're discovering a lot of stuff that we didn't know about the planet but rovers have such long timelines right because of like the time delay between earth and mars so if you were to send a message to mars right yeah how fast can we send those messages it's usually about like 15 minutes when mars is like pretty close to us um it can get like upwards to like longer to like 30-ish minutes but we can't do it at light speed no not quite that fast usually there there is usually about a 15-ish minute time delay that a lot of the people that work with the rovers also have to deal with so you have to think of the rovers as such an incredibly slow process yeah because if you're like move forward two feet 15 minutes later it hears it it does that then you know 15 another 15 minutes later it's like i successfully moved two feet so like in the span of like maybe even minimally 30 minutes you've moved like a couple feet so it just is such a slow process and that's really been a big um one of the big benefits about potentially sending humans rather than kind of some of the more robotic technology that we have there is that a human can actually oh that rock looks interesting let's collect that let's do this let's do this experiment yeah um we would have to get like some some spacex uh starlink satellites going so we could get some super high speed broadband wi-fi you know better the technology yeah i mean i think that i mean even i think even light speed communication would still be like a few minutes yeah i think certainly i mean that area is one to improve i don't think it's like a you know if we can't get that working i don't think it's going to completely you know make it to where the mission is impossible i think we've learned to adapt with like the timelines that we currently have but yeah it certainly doesn't make it easy and if there's any room to improve there but kind of the the big i guess back and forth within especially my field is also the idea of planetary protection right because we want to send humans to really uncover a lot of these things that we want to learn about mars and maybe the possibility of past life but then you also i guess run into the potential of contamination and you don't want to potentially find something that we think was past life on mars but then it's like bring it back here well not even that but even just we think we found life on mars but just someone touched a rock and it's like our own organisms and so it's like very much a an element of like keeping things separate um and even like the rope like all of the robotic technology that we've sent to the planet i mean there's been a lot of conversations that there's been you know you can we can only get things so sterile and we hope that things are as sterilized as possible but there's also the potential of like did we send anything on any of these rovers um and so it's just very much keeping those things separate so that way if you make the grand claim that you found you know life on mars it's serious and not just something that happened to get sent there yeah totally i would be more afraid of like those astronauts bringing some crazy back here well it's so funny because i certainly think that mars will kind of be in that way almost like the progression of what happened when astronauts first went to the moon you know when astronauts came back from those lunar missions they were quarantined for like 20 something days because they didn't know if there was like a moon virus or like a moon bug or you know we had no idea what you know especially even like scientifically like we just didn't really know much about about those environments and so they were like quarantined for so many days post the mission and now it's funny because you know we're like okay yeah they're they're fine to go to the moon there's have you how have you i know you're like a you're a legit person scientist scholar have you ever paid attention to like the crazy moon stuff like the history of like like the interviews they did and like paid attention to some of like the fringe kind of theories that people go out there with like with the all the occult ties to those people and like the the theories of maybe they faked it maybe they filmed it like look at the post the press conference post interview they look like they saw a ghost like yeah weird stuff have you paid attention to that stuff gone down those rabbit holes or no yeah i mean i guess i've i've always been i guess combated anytime you have an interest in space i think you get combated with you know with the moon landing not being real as probably the the most common um yeah i mean i think that for me with especially with like the moon landings i think one of the things that we we have on the moon that's the most concrete is like one of the prisms that the apollo missions left so prisms yeah like the mirrors yeah like a mirror so um one of the missions had one of those so you can and there's even been like universities to like do the tests where you can like shoot a laser at the prism and like you'll see it bounce back because we know the location of that mission so i think that there's so much to combat and i think you know the heart well the argument there is couldn't you get that there with a with a robot yes yeah certainly i think i think that one of the uh difficult parts about the space industry especially um kind of i guess defending a lot of the things that happen in the space industry is it's also hard to there's so much i guess scientific complexity to it that doesn't always translate down to the general public and i think that that is you know it's a big challenge but you know i think that that's why it is so important to talk about the space industry and kind of really explain a lot of what's going on and kind of the efforts because you know you hear you know i i was even thinking about it with like the nasa live stream of like the artemis mission i mean they certainly try but i mean even listening to live stream i'm sure so many people are like what are they saying you know like if you're not if you're not really in tune with a lot of the complexities yeah and then it's hard to i guess keep up with like what even is going on that's why i love talking to people like you because like you have a foot in both worlds and i often think about it like the people who are like living and eating and breathing in this world for this example like in nasa or like working on rockets and all day who don't pay attention to youtube or podcasts or anything like that you can see how it could be two separate parallel universes of information right like they don't pay attention to anything that these people are talking about on the internet and the internet there's like a complete and total disconnect right so someone like you can kind of like have a foot in both worlds like okay you can kind of connect some dots here or see where there's stuff missing yeah and i and i think that's a big challenge i was saying like in the importance of bringing you know that to the general public right there's no point in doing science if we're not all learning from it right that's the whole goal of scientific endeavors and especially like even coming now from like a research standpoint i mean digesting a research paper is not for the week and not for you know they're all so um so focused on like their very specific research topic and so sometimes it's it's you know an onion it's compartmentalized yeah you have to get through these layers to really understand what's happening and i think that that's that's really important you know to be able to take what we're learning and then bring it down to to a level that really is understood very commonly right did you see these uh these ufo files that just came out and they dropped the thing about the uh apollo 17 mission where they saw the ufos yeah i uh i have not had i guess too much time since like a lot of this has has like fully dropped because i think i saw there's like 160 something files or something yeah there's there's a lot the apollo stuff is crazy yeah i think uh i'm very much looking forward to to seeing some of this i mean i think there's you know you always have to remember that nasa is a government agency of course and so i think that there's no surprise that there's elements to a lot of the missions that maybe we don't get to see or maybe aren't as public knowledge but you know i think that that's almost anything governmental and so every government yeah yeah you almost have to expect that when you're looking at you know nasa who is a government agency you know we are learning a lot but obviously i'm sure there's plenty more that we don't but yeah i'm excited to uh oh what are these the photos this is one of the photos oh cbs okay okay so this is they're publishing the photo from the actual files that the government dropped right saying that in 1972 during the apollo 17 that was the last mission right so so yeah the apollo 17 mission shows three dots in a triangular formation in lower right quadrants of the lunar sky that is clearly visible upon magnification of the image the defense department said in the caption of the image the pentagon said that there is no consensus about the nature of the anomaly but the guys the astronauts um were saying that it looked like the fourth of july outside the window they said that these things were like jagged zooming all around like fireworks in the sky um yeah it's insane and this stuff is like because there's always been that one of the conspiracies about the moon is that they went there and they saw they saw ufos or alien or whatever and told him not to come back and like that was I think they said that Buzz Aldrin said that at one point but then people thought that they were he was being taken out of context but like this stuff now that they're the government's like confirming it is kind of crazy yeah it is certainly interesting I mean I'm like I said I'm very I'm very interested to kind of read you know a lot more because I mean it's funny because they're it's it's so difficult because it's almost a back and forth I mean obviously I guess with these they've been kind of looking at this material for you know since the 70s but with with space travel since there are so many unknowns I remember this story from one of the early one of the early missions I'm trying to remember it may have been like a Gemini mission so this was like when they would go to space but you know they weren't necessarily going anywhere they were just learning about you know they're really early missions and one of the things was one of the astronauts made like a comment was like it looks like there's fireflies out there like where we're getting like stuff outside the window like we don't know what it is we think it's like fireflies like it kind of looks like that and then they like later figured out it was like the like tank like dumping the urine like out and they were in as it was like hitting the space that's what they were seeing and so it's so funny because it's like you have two extremes right you have one extreme where it's like literally the most simple solution to the issue and then you have like the other extreme which is like aliens coming for you so it's just it's so funny because I think it's it's always such either one or the other right it's always hard to find like I think the balance in a lot of these things but that's like the thing about like how this stuff evolves over time is like six years ago you'd get laughed out of a room for talking about UFOs and now like the government's literally saying it they're real within like three week time span so it's like you can't write those you can't write that stuff off anymore that's stuff like legit science now yeah I mean I would say that it's always been interesting to me that you know the idea of aliens has ever been almost like a fully laughing matter just because I mean I think for me I've always believed that there has to be something somewhere right the universe is just so vast and so it's been interesting to kind of see that progression because you know I think the concept of you know whether they're here or not or whatever else sure but the concept that there ever has been aliens I think should certainly be something that is pretty agreed upon that the universe is just so big that would be so crazy to think that we're the only ones out there yeah totally what is this Steve oh this is Jesse Michaels okay so I don't know if you're familiar with Jesse Michaels he's my friend who has a podcast and he covers like the whole history of NASA he's like a super nerd historian on all of this stuff he's freaking incredible and he knows more about like the history of the space program and rocket propulsion than anyone I've ever met and he goes around the world interviewing these people and he's interviewed like heads of the different NASA's of different countries all over the world and this guy was a Japanese guy who was the head of one of the Japanese space programs I think and he's also a NASA historian and he was close to Eugene Cernan who was on Apollo 17 so here we go there's headphones we can listen to this clip okay this episode sponsored by She's Birdie you lock the hotel room door then check it again and maybe one more time because even the nicest room can feel unfamiliar at night but that's why She's Birdie created Birdie Box with She's Birdie you can bring peace of mind with you Birdie Box is a portable travel door alarm for hotels dorms Airbnbs and anywhere you stay away from home just attach it to 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spend for a year up to $1,000 per month terms apply head to ads dot apple dot com slash maps to get started try business like never before with ads on Apple Maps and I think there's captions on us I'm going to have to read captions okay go ahead Buzz Aldrin do you think that we went to the moon in 1969 and then do you think there's anything we don't understand about that story did they see UFOs along the way because he says they saw a UFO I'm sure why are you sure he says he knew Captain Eugene Cernan he says why did Apollo end with Apollo 7 he says why did Apollo end with 18 they were planning 18 and 19 I want to know the real reason they stopped at 17 his answer was they told me never to come back really it was sent directly to my brain never come back again and were any reasons for not coming back again that they cited I beg you save humanity on earth I was told not to get in their way why they told us not to interfere with their activities so do you think the extraterrestrials were using the moon as a way to research the earth crazy story yeah from a guy who was friends with eugene cernan on apollo 17 you know and i think there's also so many um so many factors i mean um a lot of ending the apollo program too yeah certainly came to a big funding issue yeah yeah totally um because i mean that's another big factor that you have to consider with the space industry it's like well why don't we do this and why don't we do that i mean even just look at adding looking at it financially it's insane i mean during the apollo program nasa had four percent of the government budget yeah and now it has half of one percent and so it's like you know even just from a money standpoint it's like yeah if we had four percent of the of the of the government budget yeah there probably could be a lot of advancements and a lot more happening um with like deep space so i think there's there's definitely a balance to it and it's you know coming from government funding as well yeah and also the you know the context back then during this the whole space race and the space race and the space race and the space race and the space race and the space race and the space race and the space race is we were just trying to like flex and prove we could get humans there first it was more of just like theatrics yeah like there was no there's no real there's no real logical reason you would want to put humans there like it's not safe it's not efficient like it's better to have robots there doing that stuff because they can be more efficient they can do just as good of a job as a human i mean we have hands with fingers on them and like we're we're not great for those environments and it's also like really not safe so like why just why do it why do it again there's really no reason other than the fact to prove that we could actually do it it would be much more efficient to do it with robots yeah i mean certainly the apollo program and and during that apollo stage was solely coming from the space race standpoint i mean that was every step of the way from literally the first satellite in space was a space race i mean it was not even just the human aspect of it it was you know who can send the first satellite who can send the first animal who can send the first man right you can send like a lot of things to the like it was every single stage was a space race and um and a lot of it came from like fear too i mean if you go back to like sputnik that uh that russia had sent up you know it was it was a fear you know that that you know all sputnik did was beep but we didn't know that and so it was coming from a place of fear is like oh well we also have to be at that point um so there was just so much fear surrounding it which like perpetuated this full like space race that uh that came to the point of going all the way to the moon yeah going back to the um the micro microbes and the bacteria and stuff on mars those rovers that are on the surface of mars how how deep do they dig an excavate. Yeah, not deep. And that's kind of a big challenge when it comes to looking for life on Mars. So you have to almost consider having a life or a search for life focus mission is not going to be very possible at this point, just because, you know, we don't actually know that there's life. So it's almost like jumping the gun. And so that's why with Mars, a lot of these rovers, their goal is to study the planet geologically. So it's just there to look at the minerals, what's there, have a better understanding. And then from there, maybe we can progress to like, oh, well, this is we didn't even know it was possible to have life or if there would be any type of environment capable of supporting life. So that's why a lot of these rovers, their main objective is to study geologically. And so they're going maybe an inch down whenever they make these samples. So they have some little core samples, an inch, maybe a couple inches. But it's really not going very far. But that's certainly a big challenge from like the astrobiological standpoint, because if you are looking for life, we certainly think that our best place to look on Mars is the deep subsurface. And so in order to really have a very good understanding of that possibility, you would almost need more of like a drill like type of mission that's actually exploring the subsurface. But we just aren't quite at a point yet. And then also the money of a life, you know, focused mission is probably crazy. It's going to be pretty challenging to get that like fully funded. So it almost a lot of missions that do have an astrobiology aspect to it. It's almost in tandem. So your big missions right now within the world of astrobiology is going to be they're looking at Europa and they're looking at Titan are the two big ones where we think. So that's where they're currently looking at almost like the highest possibility of finding some kind of life. So Europa Clipper is the mission that's going to Europa, which is a. moon of Jupiter. And that one kind of has one of the biggest areas of interest because we think it has a subsurface ocean. So it is, you know, we think it's a liquid subsurface ocean. It's just covered with like a sheet of ice on the exterior. So Europa Clipper is going to study a little bit more about the moon itself. But then there's like an aspect of it that kind of dips a little bit more into astrobiology and seeing the potential because the first step isn't just looking for life itself. It's like, okay, is there liquid water? Is there carbon? Is there oxygen? Is there things that we think are important to life? And then kind of going from there. And then Titan is a similar story. That one hasn't launched yet, but it's called Dragonfly. And that mission is going to Titan, which is a moon of Saturn. And it doesn't have liquid water, but what it does have is liquid methane and ethane. So we think that there is, so it has lakes and it has these like liquid lakes. And so anytime that there is, like liquid, that is very interesting. So you would probably find a type of life that would be very different to what we know of as life, because obviously it's in a very different environment, you know, living in liquid methane. But there is also that area of interest that has the possibility of life being different. But again, that mission is going to really study more about Titan. There's just like that little snippet of like, for, is there a possibility of some sort of microbial life that could survive in that environment? So astrobiology is going to kind of tacked on to kind of some of these missions as like a sub area of research, but it's certainly not like the main focus of them. Don't they also speculate that there could be life living in the rings of Saturn? Yeah. I mean, I think that. Have you heard that or am I crazy? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised just because there certainly is, I mean, especially once you bring in the microbe aspect of it, there's so much more resilient and there's so much more adaptable that you. Really can explore so many different areas. I mean, there's also ideas of like, is there life in Venus's atmosphere? Is there a possibility, you know? So there's almost, you can take so many different environments, but, you know, we were slowly learning more about these places. And I mean, even, you know, talking about, you know, like Saturn or even some of the moons out in the, in, you know, of Jupiter and Saturn and out in the deep solar system, we've had so few things even fly by them that it's crazy. You know, we've had like a few things fly by. Jupiter had Juno, which was really the main mission to study Juno, to study Jupiter. And then Saturn had Cassini, which is really our one main satellite that went and studied Saturn. And then New Horizon went to Pluto. So it passed by those, but really there's so little data. And so that's why some of these upcoming missions are also really important for actually looking at some of these possibilities. And what was that? What was that asteroid they just found some stuff on? Yeah. Was it Bennu? Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was really cool because we collected, or basically with that mission was super awesome because they went to the asteroid, collected a sample from it, and then brought that sample back to Earth. And so that was really something that is super fascinating because we have such little samples from places. The only other place other than the asteroid that we have a true sample from is the moon because, you know, astronauts were able to bring something back. And so that's why even talking about the conversation of Mars is really difficult because we don't have a sample from Mars. We don't have something to truly study. There's also meteorites, but those have been like altered, you know, by going through Earth's atmosphere. And so they can't be a true reflection of what's on Mars. And so we don't have an actual true sample, which is why studying Mars can be difficult because you're really trying to use, you know, simulation material, you know, regolith, which is like a simulation of what we think Mars' soil is like. We know some of the planets, but we're not getting a full picture unless you have a direct sample from the planet. Steve, what was the actual thing they found on that Bennu asteroid? It was like a, do you remember? Oh, no, but I can find it. It was like a protein maybe, or? Yeah. Yeah. That one surprised me. I mean, they found like a lot of carbon base, like, or it may have been organic material, which I know is hard to find. Yeah. We had this guy, who was talking about it. And I remember it like blowing my mind. Like, how did they freaking land that thing on the asteroid, pick up a sample and then take off and come back? Yeah. So crazy. I think it must've been going fast. It was, it was really cool. Yeah. I actually, so this like astrobiology conference that I go to, we had like a panel of some people from the project come and like talk about like the, the sample and the challenge of gaining and even some of like the figuring out, you know, how to like collect the sample. And, um, certainly, uh, very interesting. Oh, amino acids. That's what it was. That was the Osiris Rex mission. Yes. So the fundamental building blocks of proteins, the amino acids. So that's a big deal. Yeah, it certainly is. Um, I mean, I think what's, what's so crazy to think about is that there's actually such an abundant amount of material in space. Yeah. And you know, even like oxygen, we're like, we need oxygen, like oxygen's everywhere, right? Like all this stuff is everywhere. Like you can find a lot of these things. It's just, is it in that perfect environment, perfect storm to then turn into life, you know? And a lot of those materials are there. Um, and a lot of the simple building blocks are there out in the universe and they're pretty abundant, but it's just, you know, does it all come together and actually forming life. Right. And then like when it, going back to Mars, like when you determine, how do you determine. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, like, which parts that if people were to go there, where they would stay, like, first of all, where do we have the rovers? Is there a specific part we have the rovers at? Um, so I know for sure curiosity is in Gale crater. And that was, so really a lot of the target sites currently for the rovers have been looking at the potential of water on Mars. So they've been looking at places that look like it used to have water. And that's been a lot of target sites is like, you know, that looks like it could have been a river Delta. Let's go send a rover there to see if those materials are similar to something you would see in a river Delta here on earth. And so it's a lot of those like comparison studies. So that's been a big target of what they've been looking at. Yeah. Um, I mean, for looking at life, you know, there certainly are regions that we think, um, have like, uh, I guess a higher probability of like where life could have formed, especially in, in Mars's past. And that's really just looking at, you know, looking back at the conditions that, that we think Mars had, where would have like the best, best options. Yeah. Elon said he wanted to build a city in Arcadia. Why would that, why would Arcadia be good? I don't know anything about that location. I know. So what, from what I've like recently been reading, I do know one of the biggest pushes right now for life is, um, Acidalia Planitia, I think is the area on Mars that they think, you know, based on kind of the history of Mars would have the most potential, but it's also kind of a twofold with human landing. So as I said, with, you know, the potential of like you contaminating the surface, we almost have these like special regions that we think have like higher potential. And it's like, do we send the humans directly there or yes. You're most right. Yeah. Arcadia Planitia. Go back to the, go to the picture down there so we can see. So is it like less mountainous or what's so great about this area? Um, there certainly is different. Okay. Flat. I would go out, scroll up a little tiny bit flat land, frozen water, decent sun, uh, and rich history. Maybe the place where humans make their second home. Wow. Yeah. I mean, certainly I think, uh, also staying somewhat near the obviously the the equator is going to be warmer than like the poles and so um but i do know that the northern hemisphere in general has been a big area of interest um for a lot of these places but it also just really depends on like the actual scientific goals of that human mission you know and so one human mission i mean similar to like what happened with the moon they didn't all go land in the same spot right and so it could also be a balance there of like oh we want to learn about xyz let's send them here we want to go learn about this other thing let's send things there and i know that i mean even with like the next missions to the moon they're currently like scouting potential like landing sites for artemis 4 oh really i heard they wanted to do it near the poles yeah i i've heard definitely some ideas i i don't know if it's like fully selected yet but but yeah i think it's certainly going to be a bit different than some of the like previous landing sites that we've seen before and then the other thing about mars is like it's got to be like like the amount not only the radiation that you get there has to be really bad but i'm sure it's going to be a huge lack of like sunlight you're getting so we would have to have a way to like get obviously we evolved here um over however long to receive you know we're it's not just the gravity but it's also like the chemical makeup the oxygen the the amount of light that we get is a huge part of that so i think it's going to be a big part of that which like fuels our mitochondria which fuels everything in our bodies and like if we're not getting the right amount of sunlight or uv light that's going to be really detrimental compounding with the radiation and all that so like it's you know there's gonna i'm sure like the the medical side of this stuff is going to be really difficult to deal with yeah i mean i will say one of the benefits of looking at mars and you know sometimes you know when looking at mars really is the only kind of next place that we can go to and i think that's going to be a really big part of that so i think that's one of the benefits of looking at mars really is that we can go to as far as like proximity to us yeah and it makes the most sense but another benefit is mars is realistically kind of similar to earth in a lot of ways right like it's a little bit smaller than earth um i mean the gravity is one-third which you know it's it's less but um certainly that's that's something i mean having astronauts live in microgravity for a year certainly something that's been like researched for a while of those those effects to your body yeah aren't there really big like hormonal effects there's i will so kind of one of the best things that we have was the twin study uh that they did um the kelly twins where one was in space for a year and i mean there's there's a lot of things that i think are still being learned about of like the true effects uh of that i mean obviously one of the big ones is like bone density and like you know actually being physically strong because you're not using your your bones and your muscles nearly as much right which is why like exercise is so important and like really pushed so like astronauts will exercise every single day in order to try to stay strong as possible in those environments um yeah one of the twins came back shorter i think yeah and i mean it's just whenever you're you're on earth you're right you're constantly fighting gravity you don't feel like you're working out right now but you are right your muscles and your bones are fighting against gravity and so anything that you do they're constantly working and when you get put in that space environment they're no longer doing that and so it's figuring out ways you know how can we exercise and still use those muscles to you know still not maintain what it's like on earth but still maintain what it's like on earth so i think that's something that we need to maintain it a little bit better um a day on mars is like 24 hours and like 30 minutes so like the days are a little bit longer but only 30 minutes yeah the their actual like days are very similar to earth so there's a lot of similarities so you get a similar circadian rhythm yeah it's it's really not too big of a leap which is another kind of benefit with mars is that you know there are differences of course and like living on mars but it wouldn't necessarily be the biggest extreme that that we could see yeah i'd be curious i mean it's how many miles an hour how many miles away is mars oh gosh how many millions of miles it's a million miles more than a million steve that's a quick google search i have no idea actually off the top of my head the mile the miles of it i know it on the scale of like football fields it's a thousand times the moon right you know it in football fields yeah like if the if like the moon or if the earth was basketball it'd be like 300 football fields oh wow yeah that's crazy 140 million that sounds 140 million miles yeah that's the other thing there's a lot of people that are like oh my god there's always like those fluctuations yes right so uh the distance is constantly changing as both planets orbit the sun ranging from a minimum of 33 million miles wow that's a huge difference yeah and maximum 250 million miles and that's why the trajectories are so important right you certainly don't want to to launch when you have 250 million miles to to go across so um yeah that would suck i think that's almost one of the craziest things about the space industry as a whole is like people not grasping really how far things are i mean even with the moon right you know you look up at the night sky and you're like the moon's right there but it takes you know multiple days to get to the moon even just going um somewhere like our closest possible place to go is still far away yeah totally and then what about like the time dilation stuff like an interstellar when they're at that planet and like every minute here is 10 years on earth yeah yeah i mean that was that change at all that would certainly be a case for like deeper space travel so yeah within like the scale that we're traveling um to like the moon and mars and that sort of thing i would like consider a lot of those things more irrelevant yeah that's more like in a different star system right like if you're going um like outside of our solar system i think it would be like something to to consider but like within our solar system um yeah i wouldn't i wouldn't consider it like a big issue and then like terraforming mars do we have to detonate nukes on the on the poles or do you do like can you put like some big mirrors in orbit to like heat it up or like yeah you know the idea of terraforming has been like talked about for so long and it really is like a question of you know are all of these ideas even possible but yeah i mean it's it's crazy because like yeah probably the best solution to it would be to nuke the whole planet which is just insane like why is that even like a conversation um but yeah that would probably be like your your main way of of being able to actually heat up an entire planet because again you know the scale that you're talking about and terraforming an entire planet i mean mars is smaller than earth but it's still a big planet you know and so to fully change the the entire dynamic of the planet i mean that is just like such a challenge um and of course you know then it becomes like is that even possible even something that we want to be doing like who who's to say that we can just go and and go crazy and start doing stuff like that and so the aliens are getting mad that we have nuclear weapons on earth imagine what they're going to do when we start nuking mars yeah i certainly get a full invasion i yeah i certainly uh i don't know if if that route to to terraforming is is really a realistic approach and you know i think that that's a challenge with even the conversation of terraforming you know even if you were to choose that endeavor and humans were to do that it would still take you know so long to like for everything to slowly come back to like a normal state and it's such a such a long long process and like you know fully transforming the planet into something else and you know then you have like even more radiation on the planet i mean it would sounds just like potentially a disaster so anybody have any better ideas honestly i don't think so at the moment i think terraforming like the full idea of terraforming is so theoretical right now that uh yeah i think if there someone were to come up with a better idea i think any other idea would be would be better so yeah well we'll see well you have to figure out a way to melt the ice right yeah i mean the biggest yeah the biggest case is going to be you know warming up the planet i mean that's like you're going your task number one is going to be warming up the planet a big goal is you'd want to start forming like a thicker atmosphere right because mars's atmosphere is so thin and so let's say you went to mars right now and you just started pumping you had all these like things pumping oxygen or whatever that oxygen is just going to leave the planet you're not actually like it's not insulated in a way to kind of hold a lot of those gases in and so the big goal is going to be you know you're going to need like an active magnetosphere you're going to need like an atmosphere that's really holding a lot of that stuff in to start forming a planet and that's those are are the challenges and i mean again even just like the timeline of terraforming um even with crazy ideas it's just such a long period of time so yeah it's certainly a far-fetched idea it from all from everything you're saying it does sound like where it's it so far all of these ideas are very theoretical and not being tested right as much as we think so yeah just based on on that alone it's like are you are you optimistic like if you were to gamble on it do you think that we would make it there in our lifetimes to mars yeah i think it is 100 impossible in our life really that we're gonna send humans to mars yeah i don't uh i don't think that you know a lot of what the ideas of terraforming a lot of that is i guess more so down the line of like long term like sending people to like stay on mars perhaps like we'd want mars to be more like earth if you know you were right like living there for long periods of time that seems kind of yeah that i think is outside of our lifetime i don't think we're going to be like having mars as like a second place to live and like a second earth within our lifetime. I don't think that's necessarily possible, but I think the initial missions there and kind of maybe even starting some of the groundwork of even understanding how to stay on Mars. I think it's certainly possible to see a human mission to Mars within the lifetime. How close is Venus to us? Um, Venus is, is pretty close. It's the next one, right? Right. So closer to the sun. Right. So if you look, uh, Venus on either side of us is Venus and Mars. Um, and Venus is much more of like a similar size to earth. The issue with Venus is it's the hottest planet in our solar system. And it is a basically, it's hotter than the one that's closer to the sun. Yes. So there's Mercury, which is the closest, but Venus is hotter and has a extremely thick atmosphere. And so it has a ton of greenhouse gases that are constantly heating up the planet. And it's also still like, we think volcanically active. Yeah. And so there is a lot of heat. So it's, it's certainly hotter than, than Mercury, even though it's technically further from the sun because of how thick the atmosphere is. And even our understanding of Venus is pretty minimal because we've had, or we've tried to land, um, you know, multiple countries have sent, uh, things to Venus to try to attempt to land on it. And we get like one image and then it's just burned to a crisp and yeah, we're not able to actually get a whole lot. So we know pretty minimal. It's also very high pressure. Um, which is really challenging when it comes to technology and landing there. And so that's why Mars is certainly the, the direction to go just because of how like dangerous Venus is in terms of, well, I mean, if, if, if Mars was at one point like earth and in that sort of Goldilocks zone, then reason would suggest that Venus will one day be in that same sort of zone that earth is in now. Right. Yeah. You know, there is, um, there is an idea of, you know, like how the, the planets are like moving over time. And that's, that's something that scientists are kind of learning about by looking at other solar systems, right? We can understand a lot more about how our solar system is eventually going to look by looking at solar systems that are older than ours and like, what are they currently doing? And so that's a lot of really trying to compare what we know about our current solar system. And then kind of having that as comparison to, to other places. So looking at places with like similar suns to, to our sun, seeing how those solar systems are evolving. And then we can kind of start making assumptions. I mean, of course there's the overarching, you know, we know our sun's not going to last forever. We know earth is not going to last forever. You know, you can't have, have a sun that's just never going to die. It's eventually going to run out of fuel. And again, very long, long periods of time here, but you know, we know that the sun can't just burn forever. And so that's really where a lot of these ideas of, you know, living on Mars are terraforming or kind of pushing towards deep space come from is because we know earth isn't going to be a place that humans can live forever and ever and ever and ever, you know, our solar system will reach a point where, you know, the sun just won't be able to, to have fuel anymore and supply that heat. And without any heat, you know, the, the earth isn't going to be very habitable anymore. And so that's why there is ideas of space travel being so important is like, how do we get to a point, you know, over, you know, the next millions and millions of years to where we're at a point that we can survive something like that or like develop a space platform to where we don't have to rely on a planet. Yeah. I mean, of course, I mean, then you start talking of course, and like sci-fi and like, you know, all the ideas that come from that, but that's really where all of it comes from. Right. Because we know for sure that our solar system isn't like sustainable forever. And so it's, it's that idea of like, if humans were to continue past that, there's going to have to be some sort of solution, whether it's moving somewhere else, living somewhere else into like a younger solar system. Mm-hmm or, you know, like you said, just like living in space fully. Right. And it's interesting, like the more that technology advances here, the more we learn about what's happening out there, like with, with, um, one of those latest satellite or telescopes. Yeah. Yeah. The James Webb. Was it the James Webb or was it, I don't remember which one of the one that, that discovered the interstellar objects that were coming through. Yeah. I'm pretty sure it's James Webb. Yeah. James Webb, it's looking deeper or like, um, obviously, like, again, when you look into space, you're kind of looking into the past. And so it's James Webb has like looked further than anything else we've had. Okay. Um, and it's getting some of those like early images. Right. Um, cause we're kind of almost like looking into the past and looking into kind of the beginnings of the universe. Because it's like, it's crazy that the first interstellar object that we've discovered or image was in 2019, I think. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you're talking, yeah. Okay. Totally. I get what you're saying now. Yeah. So you're talking about probably Hubble was kind of our, our initial telescope that was looking at a lot about that. And then our current one, well, James Webb was kind of the next iteration of, of Hubble. So it's newer technology and it's able to like look further and look with like crisper images. Um, so we're getting much better images of like the early, early universe. Yeah. And so what, what was the name of the telescope that discovered the, uh, the Oumuamua, I think it was, or the three eye, the third one, the Atlas one. It makes you wonder, once we start getting like crazy, super sophisticated satellites, you know, cause this stuff is advancing, um, at an incredible rate. So like we've only seen three now, but imagine when we're able to get, um, telescopes that are like 10 times more advanced than our current most powerful ones, we're going to see these things everywhere and realize that we're constantly being bombarded by all these crazy things that were, we were missing before. Yeah. I mean, we're, uh, it was named after the, uh, the telescope. Oh, it's called the Atlas. Telescope, NASA funded Atlas asteroid. Okay. So yeah. Okay. You're talking about like a, a ground-based system. It's called the asteroid terrestrial impact last alert system. That's a comforting name located in Rio who, uh, Hurtado, Chile. Interesting. Oh, I remember him saying it was in Chile. This is like a, a ground-based system and then Hubble and James Webb are, are in space. Yeah. Um, and James Webb, one of the cool things about it, um, it's like at a, what's called like a Lagrange point. So where it's sat, it's basically like where the gravity's equal out a bit. Um, so there's like certain points in our solar system that almost like the gravity's balanced. Like you think of like, you know, how earth has its gravity that orbits the moon. And then obviously the sun has more gravity. So we orbit the sun. Yeah. And so we kind of have these points where those like balance out. So it's kind of further out, uh, in like away from earth than a lot of like other systems that we have. So like Hubble didn't necessarily go that far, but James Webb is kind of at this like further point. Um, yeah, it's super cool. Cause it's, it's not necessarily as, uh, as like insulated by earth and a lot of things it's much further in space. Hmm. Isn't there, how many satellites do we have orbiting Mars? Oh gosh. We have the reconnaissance one, right? The reconnaissance orbiter. Yeah. I mean, and that one took a good photo of the three eye Atlas when it passed by it. I remember it got pretty close to there. Yeah. I mean, gosh, there probably has to be. That's one of the things that freaks me out is like the amount of satellites that we put into outer space. Like we're littering space. Have you seen the Kessler syndrome? Have you heard? I just learned about this the other day. Yeah, I have. Where it's like, there's like thousands and thousands of objects where it's like a shotgun blast of stuff. Right. That's just rotating our planet. Yeah. Space junk is quite literally one of the biggest and most concerning things I think that we have, uh, in with the space industry. Cause one thing that you don't want to, uh, humans don't want to get themselves into is trapping ourselves here where like there's so much junk, um, we can't get out. Right. And I mean, even if you think about like the movie, like Wally, right. They like go through this like wall of like junk whenever they like leave the planet. And that's something that, uh, that certainly is like a concern. You don't want it to get to this point where the irony. Yeah. You just trap yourselves here. Yeah. We're focused so much on getting off the earth. We ended up creating our own prison. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think space junk is, um, is like a really big issue and it's going to be interesting to see over the next few years, if that's something that, that these government agencies that, you know, are putting a lot of this stuff into space, if that's something that becomes more of a priority to them, or if it becomes more of like a, a commercial endeavor where like someone has a system to like clean up space. Yeah. Um, but it's certainly going to be interesting to see how that evolves. Cause I mean, from just what we've already done so far, there's so much space junk and it's even, you know, the idea of just things that no longer work, right. You could have had a fully functioning satellite, but that's only going to have so long of a lifespan. Maybe it works for 10 years, maybe it works for 20 years, but it's going to reach a point where she's dead. Yeah. Those satellites aren't going to last forever. And so you kind of hit a point where, you know, then it becomes junk and then you run the risk of it, hitting something else. And, and those things are tracked, but you know, sometimes you can't track something that's like a little piece of paint. Yeah. They're supposed to decommission them by like crashing them into the ocean. Right. Well, there's a lot of ideas of about how to get rid of space junk, really a big ideas, like how we kind of push them back towards the atmosphere. And basically the, the junk would burn up in earth's atmosphere. So rather than like them fully like crashing into the ocean, it's kind of like, yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like, you know, like using earth's atmosphere as a way to, to, uh, to burn up that material, but you need some sort of system that's going to knock it out of its current orbit and like towards earth. And that's kind of the challenge is, you know, what's going to do that. Who's going to do that, go around and kind of have this cleanup. Yeah. Will that work with the International Space Station when they try to decommission that? Yeah. Honestly, I don't know. I know that, you know, a big. Because that thing's old. Yes. You know, with the idea of, like, decommissioning it, I know there is the idea of, like, deorbiting it. And with that, it could be, you know, parts of it gets burned up in the atmosphere and then parts of it does, like, come all the way and, like, land in the ocean. Yeah. I don't know. Find out when they're supposed to decommission that thing or what are the plans with the International Space Station? They were supposed to decommission it 15 years ago. Were they really? And why didn't they? They kept it running. Can you find out? Like, what are the plans for it? I know that originally, like, they were going to sell the International Space Station to Axiom and then Axiom was going to take it over. And now Axiom wants to, which is a private company, and now they would rather basically build their own space station rather than, I think, taking over the current space station. But, I mean, the International Space Station is, like, the size of a football field. So it is a— Is it really? It's very large. So it is a big thing to decommission. And, yeah, I don't know. I have a lot of, I think, conflicting— Did they build it out there? Mm-hmm. So that was the point of the space shuttle program. So NASA had the space shuttle program. It built the International Space Station and it launched satellites. It launched Hubble. That was the point of it, to build a space station? Mm-hmm. I'm just learning this today. That's crazy. Yeah. So— Ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah, I thought I saw 2030 was the big year that they were looking at. Oh, okay. So the end of 2030 is when they planted and did decommission it. Yeah, and so part of it is going to, like, burn up in the atmosphere, but obviously it probably won't be able to burn up an entire football-sized piece of material. So some of that will certainly crash land. So kind of before the International Space Station and the space shuttle program, NASA had Skylab, which was, like, originally, I guess, some sort of space station. Mm-hmm. And that was originally trying to figure out how do you live in space. So after the moon, it was like, okay, now how do we live in space? And Skylab was kind of the initial, like, a very small module about figuring out how to live in space. And astronauts would go up to Skylab. They would probably stay there for, like, a few months. Mm-hmm. And then once the idea of Skylab happened, it was like, okay, how do we create a more permanent version? And then that's when the idea of, like, building a full International Space Station came about. And then the space shuttle was a reusable space station. It was a reusable vehicle that could go on multiple missions and kind of help in contributing and building to this, like, much larger space station that could be used for science. But, yeah, I mean, there was 135 space shuttle missions. Yeah, that's crazy. So it was a massive, just massive program that did a lot of stuff. But, yeah, it was through the space shuttle that we were able to have the International Space Station. Will we use reusable rockets to get to Mars when we decide to go there? Or will we do expendable rockets? You know, I think it's going to be probably a mix of kind of what we're seeing currently with the Artemis mission, where, like, parts of it are reusable. But as a whole, the entire rocket isn't reusable. Right. So I think that's kind of, I mean, even with the space shuttle, it's considered NASA's most reusable rocket that it did. But still, the external tank was trashed every single time. Right. And so that, you had 135 of those that were built. So it's almost. And where did they all go? Those burned up in the atmosphere. They all burned up. Yeah. And so, because that went, that was still attached pretty high up. You know, they wouldn't jettison that until they were almost, like, in space. And so that one would burn up in the atmosphere, whereas everything else was reused for that rocket. So I think, you know, it's difficult to have something that's, you know, 100% reusable. So I think it's going to be, like, a combination for when we look at what's going to take people to Mars, where parts of it are reusable and parts of it are not. Especially if the idea is that you, like, launch from some vehicle and then dock on something else that takes you to Mars. I'm sure that almost, like, back and forth may be a reusable vehicle. Yeah. Well, it does seem like such a better, like, such a better idea to do it from the moon. If you could figure out how to get, how to build something on the moon where you could get all this stuff on these big rockets, that could be, it would be much easier to have reusable rockets if you launched them from the moon. And if you could get enough stuff to Mars where you could be self-sustaining, you could be sustainable, right? Like, that's the goal, right? To be, to make it sustainable to stay there and not have to constantly have shipments coming all the time. You want to create factories there. You want to build the stuff you need there and use either the resources that are already there if we can find them or have enough. I mean, you need probably, like, a million tons of stuff to, like, be there before you can actually have a sustainable place for people to live. Yeah. And I think a big idea, too, is, like, a lot of that would be sent beforehand. Like, before you were to. If you ever send a mission with humans on it, you're sending a lot of these, like, pre-missions almost to have, like, a lot of that already landed on the surface. And then, like, once humans arrive, they have this, like, stuff there. So, like, a habitat, for instance, you would, like, send that beforehand rather than, like, sending humans to go build, like, build a habitat for when, like, they first arrive. So, a lot of that material would be, like, prior missions. And, like, solar panels. You need probably a ton of solar panels, you know, satellites that are doing whatever, like, maybe. Maybe reflecting more sun back or, like, even if we can find, like, some natural resources there, like, maybe some, like, natural gas that could be frozen that we could, like, melt or, you know, there's got to be resources there that we could tap into and utilize to do manufacturing. Yeah. And I think that a lot of that has already been learned about with the International Space Station. I mean, of course, we do have some supply missions, you know, of course, that go to the International Space Station. But as a whole, I mean, it's had to be relatively self-sustaining in a way. Just because those supply missions are so expensive. And so, it's, like, even just to send, like, a gallon of water to the International Space Station is so expensive. Yeah. And so, it's, like, it has to be, in a way, to a degree, self-sustaining. And so, even though that there are supply missions, there's so much, like, reusability that is important. And I think the International Space Station has been such an integral part about learning about living in space and, like, living for, like, long durations and sustainability within space. That's why I feel like I always have, like, such conflicting ideas about them getting rid of the International Space Station, just because I think it's one of our greatest human feats that we've been able to have an international work environment in space that has done so many scientific studies, has been able to teach us so much about living in space. And, I mean, again, even just the sheer size of it, it's incredible that we, like, built something like that just orbiting around the Earth. And it's such an incredible piece of technology. Yeah. Well, what is still being done? Like, is there any, like, research currently being done there now? Like, what sort of, like, groundbreaking research can you do up there? Yeah. So, I mean, they probably have missions that, like, rotate to the International Space Station, like, every six months, I think. I think they just had the, I think it was really only a few weeks ago they had the new crew launch to the International Space Station. So, there's constantly people up there. They're constantly working, learning about, again, things that will be useful for going to the moon, going to Mars, so learning how to grow, like, plants in space. They do a lot of research there. in microgravity. It kind of just depends on, I guess, what is currently like scientifically interesting, but yeah, there's always really something going on up there. And so that's why, and it's, you know, again, still an international endeavor. There's still, you know, people from multiple countries up on the International Space Station working. And yeah, it's something I think is so easily forgotten. Like there's always people up there and it has been since the space station kind of got created. Yeah. What I really want to know is what the hell are those things on Cydonia and those anomalies on the surface of Mars that we see? Like there's these shapes, these geometric, not geometric, but they're like perfectly square shapes. There's like something that looks like a pyramid there. There's like another thing that looks like a face. Like these anomalies are crazy. And I wish they would send something there, some sort of a vehicle or something there to like, look at that stuff and see what it is because damn, there's that one, that one anomaly looks so much like a pyramid and like some of them look manmade. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. I think kind of the biggest thing with some of these like interesting features on the surface of Mars is really just like wanting to actually get something actually to it, to actually get better images. Yeah. Yeah. So how big would that thing be, Steve? That, that pyramid on Cydonia, Rosetta Stone, do they have an idea of like what the size of it would be? Because like, if we know that life was here one time, or if we know at the very least that this planet was, was able to sustain life, you know, billions of years ago, who's to say that there wouldn't have been some sort of a civilization there that was technological or advanced in some way? You know, there's the, there's this hypothesis called the Silurian hypothesis, this guy, Adam Frank came up with, which is basically like, if we, if we wanted to figure out if there was a previous like industrial civilization on earth, like before our recorded history, how would we find out? Well, the hypothesis is like, we, we wouldn't, we would have no evidence of that. There could be a completely like a super hyper advanced industrial civilization living right here on earth, millions and millions of years ago. And over time, you know through like all the the cycles of earth and the catastrophes that have washed across earth and you know just all that time we would have we would have no no clue it would just all that evidence would be gone so what's to say that couldn't have happened here if life was how if this place was habitable for life back then okay so this says the dnm pyramid a prominent feature in the sidonia region of mars first image in 1976 is a large eroded messa roughly okay it's five miles wow significantly larger than the great pyramid of magisa which is about 1.5 miles yeah i mean if you think about mars and the stuff that we've seen on mars i mean mars has some very large features i mean olympus mons that's on mars is three times what is that what did you say olympus mons it's like the big um it's in like all your typical images of mars like the big like volcano okay um and it is we think three times taller than mount everest whoa and then um so yeah olympus mons is kind of that big massive feature on on mars so is this like the biggest mountain on mars yes it's like a giant pimple on the face of mars yes this is this is certainly um one of the biggest features so if you just look up like you know the surface of mars like you're gonna see olympus mons there and look how much bigger it is than mount everest yeah that's nuts yeah we think it's three times as big and then even valis marineris which is the canyon that's on mars yeah you know we think it's like the size of the entire united states so it is we think yeah this planet is smaller than our planet yes mars is smaller so mars does have some very um large features to it um which i think is super interesting uh because there's there's really some stuff that uh that we have big interest in and just you know how how these features came to the surface of the planet to be um but yeah very much larger features than than what's on earth yeah i'm super curious of how we can start getting like deep core samples of these parts of mars that dig down and do some like serious excavations of it and see what what we can pull out because we would learn so much from that yeah and wouldn't that be easier than getting humans there yeah you know i certainly agree i think that um i would think some sort of you know drill or you know sub-surface uh is really important and really going to lend itself and and help understand maybe some of the things that we still don't know about mars i would see it as something maybe you know before human mission but you know really it's just i don't know who who's going to be doing that you know i'm at the moment it doesn't sound like nasa has any plans of doing like a deep sub-surface mission um so it's it's unsure you know maybe there's another agency that does something um i think that's just really the question of of who's going to be doing that who's going to do it and then that will kind of maybe direct the timeline but i think like at the moment if i were to guess i think nasa's goals would maybe lend itself more to just like a human mission um and then maybe a plan of like human doing like a drill investigation or research but but i'm not sure it's certainly uh i think a big important thing um that will kind of maybe start seeing within the next bit of time and understanding more about mars from the sub-surfaces standpoint right right um so did you ever like did you ever talk to any of these astronauts that did any of these recent moon missions like this artemis stuff and and all this like how many astronauts have you talked to that have actually like been on space trip space trip not just like have you been talking to any of the apollo astronauts um i've met a lot of them over um over periods of time um you know we're we're certainly getting to a point now where a lot of the apollo astronauts are passing away i think has been um uh kind of unfortunate but yeah i've certainly met a lot of them over time i think they're all all very great people um i haven't met any one from like the most recent artemis mission yeah um or like the most like recent crew that did the lunar flyby so i haven't met any of them but i mean i guess over time i've met a good good handful of astronauts so that i don't know if you told this you might have told me this story before we started recording about your trip when you so you watched the artemis shuttle launch in cape canaveral and then you basically i think you watched the artemis shuttle launch in cape canaveral and then you basically drove across the country and watched them splash down in off the coast of san diego is that right yeah so i did a documentary which is titled driven to explore and the goal of it was really having like a a similar mission to the artemis 2 mission but on earth and so since the artemis 2 mission was a 10-day mission from launch to splashdown we had a similar 10-day mission on earth where we were in cape canaveral for the launch and got to see that and then the second it launched we hit the road and drove cross-country and ended up in san diego for the splashdown uh on april or at the end of those 10 days and really the the goal of it was to go and meet women in stem kind of along the way and hear some of their stories so we had some interviews with women that worked on the the sls maybe they worked on the capsule maybe they worked on the actual rocket itself we met women that were just kind of scientists in their own fields in in the space industry um and it was really fun yeah we got to learn a little bit about you know different different fields that that women have or are representing in and really a lot of this too because since christina cook was really becoming the first woman to go the furthest that that there's ever been and really all the astronauts honestly on the artemis 2 went further than any other previous moon mission um as far as like how far they went around the moon um it was just very cool to kind of bring a lot of that journey to some of the the cool stuff happening on earth as well and then when you got to california you realized you couldn't actually see them splash down they were too far offshore yeah so we kind of knew from the beginning that the splashdown is a little difficult to see because i mean a lot of stuff you know has always kind of splashed down off the coast of san diego so it kind of depends on the mission about how far offshore um because we were reading that depending on the day that day and visibility sometimes you can see it a little bit sometimes you can hear like hear them break through like the sound barrier but really it depends on how offshore that they are and like how offshore the capsule is for this artemis mission they were certainly pretty far out there so we just watched kind of the live stream for the actual splashdown as kind of like a conclusion and we did um we went scuba diving off the coast of san diego as well uh for the documentary and we got to see the vessel that was bringing the orion capsule back so whenever they splashed down in the ocean the astronauts were in the capsule and they had a navy vessel also out there kind of near where they splashed down they sent like a smaller boat out to the capsule and that's what recovered the astronauts and got them out the capsule and then they brought them to the navy vessel as like their initial medical check before like sending them to houston and then um that vessel will then brought the capsule back in because the capsule will then hopefully get refurbished and used for another artemis mission so they took it towed it in and so the navy vessel you know was obviously out in the water a little bit longer tugging that uh and you saw that ship come in yeah the navy vessel was probably honestly really not too far from us and we just kind of got lucky from the site that we went to to go scuba diving uh we got a call in on the the vessel that uh that the dive captain was like if you guys want to look the navy ship just called in and said that they're entering the area and so we got to see it kind of off in the distance has any civilian ever seen one of those things splashed down have there been like non-cleared people out there like fishing and seeing this thing come out of the sky i would say no mainly just because of how offshore it is it's like 60 miles offshore 16. 60. oh 60. yeah so it's pretty uh far a lot of fishermen out there yeah i mean i i would certainly not say never um but i'm sure there is obviously a lot of like searches of the air because they have the navy vessel they have obviously helicopters going around because they're trying to spot the capsule as it's coming down as soon as possible so they probably make it like a a they probably rope it off yeah like a perimeter don't let anybody enter it right and i mean it's crazy how timed all of this is right i mean the splashdown they splash down at like the literal minute that was predicted um per like the trajectory of the mission so it was insane because it's all calculated right they know when the astronauts are going to come in and splash down i mean i think it was like 5 0 7 p.m or whatever it was it was like that and that was the time that they splashed down so it was very very much calculated um but yeah it was a very very fun trip and i'm very excited obviously now moving into uh post-production with the documentary but very fun to kind of be able to keep up with the artemis ii mission while kind of being on our own kind of mission across the country and it was fun because you know you were you felt more involved every step of the way because so many people will watch the launch but really that's just the beginning of the mission right and so there's so many crucial steps at every step of the way like when they did their their engine burn to actually start their lunar trajectory i mean there's a lot of a lot of parts of the mission that were like big steps what did you um what did you see scuba diving in san diego that's a place i would never imagine going scuba diving yeah it was actually my first time ever like scuba diving on the west coast yeah it's pretty creepy yeah we went to a kelp forest actually yeah uh which was pretty cool because i'd never into like a kelp forest before but yeah there's lots of sea lions a lot of wildlife actually which was interesting none of them got like too close to us but it was funny because we were like diving and then like maybe how do you know uh we didn't go too deep we uh probably around 40 45 feet okay um uh just to kind of get to the bottom of where we were did you go off the beach or like off a cliff or something no we uh we just took a dive boat out they had like they had like a location that um you know depending on what you want to see um you know they have like different spots that they typically bring divers so like for this kelp forest spot we like went to where they typically go and like diving so we just like went to a particular kelp forest and then we just like jumped off the boat from there it had to be so crazy it's very cool i've seen footage i've never scuba dived i've surfed through kelp forest but i've never scuba dived in a kelp forest before it was it was a bit challenging uh because i had never scuba dived in a kelp forest either it's really cold and you can get like tangled pretty quick yeah um and so that was certainly uh a new a new situation to kind of learn and adapt to but also the cold was really interesting because they i feel like they kept warning us you know since we had never dove in you know off the west coast about how cold it is and like kind of the shock well we were at the surface for a good while just kind of getting set up and everything i was like i don't think the water is that bad and then when we went down to the bottom i was like i'm freezing it the temperature dropped so quickly as we like descended i was like oh my gosh they were not kidding this is yeah this is freezing and the bottom was like 40 feet yeah so it was like 40 to 45 feet was at the bottom so we went all the way down okay so you're pretty close to the shore then yeah yeah we really weren't weren't too far um mainly just for like time of like the documentary and like filming we weren't trying to like spend an hour going like super far out so just for our own timelines we did something like near pretty near the shore yeah yeah that's just like that whole part of the like the whole west coast of california like they're so like it gets so deep it's so cold there's like the ocean is so kind of like unpredictable over there and then like also you have nuclear submarines coming in and out of like the inlets there like down especially down like in the newport area i've seen and uh yeah it can just get hairy out there so i've like never been interested in like going like scuba diving or free diving over there kind of like i prefer the caribbean the water's warmer it's super clear uh no nuclear submarines yeah well i mean prior to that i really i had done most of my diving uh out in florida and so yeah this is the best place for it florida is a much more uh comfortable and like stable environment yes to go scuba diving in so that was certainly a new adventure yeah here in the bahamas and like everywhere in between around here is much more friendly yeah it was it was super cool and i'm very glad because like i mean really the artemis ii mission with there being like humans on board i think really drew a lot of attention and i think is um i think it's just really cool to see i mean realistically this was not only the first time we have sent humans back to the moon since the 1970s but also like really the first time we've had nasa astronauts launching from a nasa vehicle in you know since the space shuttle because after the space shuttle ended obviously nasa astronauts were going to the international space shuttle they were going to the international space shuttle space station via russia and nasa was like paying for their tickets on soyuz and then when spacex came into play then spacex was um was essentially used as the charter vehicle to the international space station yeah and so this was really the first time we've had nasa astronauts on a nasa vehicle in in quite some time and they didn't even touch the moon they just went around it yeah they went how many years has it been since uh what was it 72 was the apollo uh 17. yeah 72 was the last time that we went after the moon out that far and then again this trajectory was a little bit a little bit further um so if you think about in comparison to the apollo days because i think that was a big conversation right with artemis too was like why why are they just going to the moon like how silly and you know when you think about it everyone you know thinks about apollo 11 that landed on the moon but there was eight nine and ten that all went to the moon but didn't land and those were really like those preparation missions so they were testing the rocket literally apollo 10 practiced almost like descending on the moon and they were like we can see it we want to land like let us land and there wasn't like enough fuel to like land and like launch because that wasn't the actual goal of that mission and so that's what we're seeing now with artemis ii this was really one of those first missions to go to the moon kind of practice this new trajectory because this was a different trajectory than like what apollo 11 did and so test the systems they were testing life support systems this is the first time this capsule has ever had humans in it and had to sustain humans for 10 days and so you're really practicing all those systems before you're just jumping in and landing on the moon so it's been 60 years since we first touched down and had humans on the surface of the moon what was the steve google this what was the time between the first um airplane the first time we ever flew a plane humans ever had a powered aircraft what was the time find out the year that happened 1903 so almost the same amount of time to 1969. so from the first airplane to going on the freaking moon it was the same time between the last time we landed on the moon to now pretty much that's kind of crazy to think about yeah no it is really crazy and i think really like you know the space industry has really progressed but just in a very different way you know it's just like no it's a different world now progressed within low earth orbit rather than deep space but yeah it is really insane to think about like how long it's been since like we went and uh i think it's a really exciting time especially for people interested in the space industry because i think we're just going to see more and more progress and especially i think with a lot of the current pushes for um building you know some sort of permanent presence on the moon and i think the artemis missions are just going to be kind of a a pretty heavy force of you know continuation of like we'll just see missions more frequently than we have i was going to go to mars i would i would maybe ask like if it's okay if i go to the moon first like can i just do try the moon first just as like a warm-up yeah you know well it's really funny because with like the artemis ii the three nasa astronauts that were on that mission were veterans they've been to the international space station they've been to space multiple times the canadian it was his first ever mission and so it was his first mission and he went further than any humans ever gone before um so it's really crazy kind of something like that uh that balance between like what's more important i know like with a mission to mars it's almost like the same idea right do you have someone who has experience and has like done a mission before or is it you know with the time that you're going to be on the moon and you're going to be on the planet the timeline of how long the mission to mars is do you want someone that's never been to space before and they've never had any effects of microgravity on their body they maybe have more of like a fresher um from like almost more of a medical standpoint of like they've never had any effects because of living in microgravity uh to their body because of like the duration of the trip but again a lot of that's really just going to depend i think again on this raw dog full send first time baby go all the way yeah and i mean even with like a mission to mars right you're going to need such a diverse group of you know you're probably going to want someone who's more of a geologist to actually do some of the research that you get there you're obviously going to want someone who's very experienced a good pilot i mean there's just so many different roles to think about when you're actually like there and making a human mission to mars right right um now in like so currently you're studying as an you're studying to be like a master getting a master's in astrobiology is that correct i'm getting my phd and your phd yeah so i'm three years into a phd program okay um and it's sorry i don't know anything about this no you're all good i barely graduated high school you're all good yeah i mean so i went straight i guess the lay down was i went straight from undergrad to a phd program so i essentially skipped a master's oh wow how'd you do that um it's actually really common um in a lot of the more i guess science fields um they don't really require you to have a masters to pursue like a phd program which i think is just one not very well known and two just um i certainly didn't know about it i actually applied as a master's student and then when i was trying to work with the professor that i wanted to work with he was only interested in phd students and i i certainly understand it a lot more now because of a master's is so short that it's hard to really conduct meaningful research within only two years and so he was saying you know by the time you get trained you're gonna be a master's student get trained on all the all the stuff to use for your research you're graduating and so it's uh it's certainly um an interest of them to kind of have phd students who are going to be around longer and so they get like more research under their belts so yeah i'm in a phd program in space and planetary science but all of my research is still within astrobiology so my bachelor's degree was directly in astrobiology and then all of my current research interests are still astrobiology and yeah just continuing through the the phd program and conducting my research which is all about microbes and and mars and that connection um and contributing to that kind of gap in in the field and at the moment really just continue with that and then post post-PhD, either staying within academia or working in the industry, but again, within research either way. And I'm officially, I guess, eligible to apply to the astronaut selection process whenever it opens up again. So since the requirement is you have to have at least a master's, like the PhD equivalent to that would be at least two years into your PhD program, so I would be eligible to apply whenever it opens, so would probably give it a stab whenever they open it back up as my first, I guess, true application to NASA's selection process. The people that you're working with, that you're rubbing shoulders with at your college that are pursuing these PhDs and stuff like astrobiology, what sort of jobs in the industry do they typically go for and what sort of companies hire them? Are we talking like private aerospace or? Yeah. It really depends. We have someone who's about to graduate and he's looking at a job with the Smithsonian. We have some people that pursue government, so maybe even a little outside of just the space realm, but maybe just working on biomaterials for some government projects. Privately, I mean, it really is just depending on your area of research, because we're all pretty different, right? I mean, my research focuses are that microbiology. We have some people that study Mars, but we have some people that study Pluto, some people that have a focus on Venus. It kind of just depends on what your area of focus is, and then also money is a big thing too. So that's why it's kind of hard to tell, especially for me at this point, whether I would stay within academia or pursue industry, because a lot of the funding for this comes from grants and interest in that science topic, and so that is very ever-evolving, because sometimes, you know, right now, it's like, "Well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to do this." And, you know, that's just how it is. It's like, "Well, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do this. And, you know, Mars maybe isn't as big of a topic within astrobiology as, like, Europa is. So it's kind of always evolving to what the current most fascinating topic within the field is, and so you certainly kind of flow a little bit with it. And where do most of the grants come from? A lot of them are, like, NASA grants, so, like, kind of the NASA budget also determines a lot of that and, like, which division within NASA you fall into, so you can apply for NASA grants. Sometimes there's more just, like, general science grants, like NSF, kind of just funding a certain science interest, so that's kind of the main areas to look into. What about, like, companies like Lockheed or, like, the Aerospace Corporation or any of these types of companies, do they ever give grants to you guys? Certainly, but it really, again, depends on, like, your science interest, so, I mean, if you're working in, like, material science or, like, for example, if, you know, because you're so focused on, like, the actual equipment rather than, like, the actual direct science you get out of it, a lot of material science can certainly get, like, funding from those areas because, you know, you're actually testing that equipment in those environments. But as far as, like, direct science, a lot of that maybe not so much since the engineering is just the actual vehicle rather than, like, the actual task that will be, you know, happening in space. Right. Right. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for doing this. Yeah. This was fun. Yeah. Love talking about space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where can people find out more about you or, like, follow you, do you have a website or anything like that? Yeah. So all of my, like, socials and everything is under NASA Blueberry. So website as well, NASA Blueberry. NASA Blueberry. NASA Blueberry. That's your handle? That is my handle. Had it ever since I started social media, which honestly just started out as posting photos for the family. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I just had kind of an interest in space. I was kind of posting what me and my dad were up to over the summer and like camps and stuff. And Blueberry is kind of like a nickname. So call signs are really common within, like, the space industry where you get, like, assigned a call sign. Right. And you, like, don't choose it. And whenever I was going to space camp, I wanted one of, like, the blue flight suits that I saw everyone wearing. But I couldn't fit in any of them. So my dad bought this, like, knockoff really dark shade of blue and I really stuck out. And so everyone started calling me Blueberry. Oh, that's funny. And it, like, stuck. And everyone just kind of kept, oh, look, Blueberry's back. And so it just kind of naturally became, became a nickname. I love it. That's very, that's very cool. Well, I hope you can find out if the UFOs and the aliens are real and let us know. Please let me know. Don't keep it a secret. I will. I'll certainly keep you updated when I figure it out. I certainly think as far as, like, finding something out there, I think microbes are going to be the first thing that we find. Yes. Well, microbe counts to me. That's in my book. I'm an alien. I agree. I agree. So let me know. I will. Awesome. Thanks again for doing this. Thank you. All right. Good night, everybody. Reach customers when it counts, right when they turn "I'm looking" into "I'm going." They're in decision-making mode, actively searching for businesses like yours and deciding where to go. Customers can easily call you, visit, and more from the same place they're viewing you. Terms apply. Head to ads.apple.com/maps to get started. 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