#40 | Toilet training, Autism & Gut Health.

Hello, mate. Hello, how you doing? I'm right now, are you? Yeah, I'm very good. I'm very good. Thank you very much. So, this week we've got Charmaine, the Continent's Consultant, who we've mentioned a few times on the podcast and never actually managed to get you on. Completely off, by the way. Yeah. 100%. But you're here. Thank you for coming. Yeah, I'm very excited about being here to be honest. Good so wait. I think just before we were talking, weren't we? And it's always nice to have people on the podcast and just learn about their lives and their children and stuff. But we're genuinely excited because Andy and I have both got children that are kind of at that age where we're wondering, is it time to start yet? So we're genuinely hoping we're going to get some little nuggets of information from you to help us kind of move forward with our kids. Yeah, definitely. Well, I think it'd be good just to get a bit of background, Charmaine, how you became the the Continent's Consultant. Yeah, so I qualified as a nurse. So I'm my nursing background. So I'm a Learn Disability nurse and I'm also a Community Nurse Specialist for Children with a Learn Disability and Complex Needs. And I qualified, oh, when did I qualify? 94. So it's a little while ago, 1994. And so I've been working with children, young people as well as adults as well. For like over 30 years. And then I'd been in the NHS and I'd been supporting children and families. And I'd got to the point where I was just like, I want to be able to support the whole child, not just one particular part. And I was in a situation where, or in several situations where I needed to basically, I could only look at one need and they, I was told to then discharge families, even though I could see that there was another need that I could help with. But I needed to discharge and then families then needed to go back on a waiting list and then re-refer in. And then that whole process started all over again. And I was like, this is crazy. I just, I don't, I don't want to, I don't want to be part of this anymore. So that's why I started up with a start at CLISDEP's Consultant C, 10 years ago. And for that reason, I just wanted to be able to help more, more children and families. So yeah, so I support anything to do with we, poo, toileting in the day and night, as well as sleep, understanding emotions, because they're all connected by the gut health. So I, that's what I focus on. We help with toileting sleep and emotions and behaviour. So yeah. Fantastic. Fantastic. I guess kind of one question I was saying to kind of gas off air is, why is there kind of a major issue or how have you want to put it with autistic children and toilet training? The great to get a bit of an understanding is to what's what's going on there and why it's so common? Yeah, so there's several, there's several reasons for that. So with some of our children, it can be because of the types of foods that our children are eating. So naturally, they're sort of the fiber content, you know, the range of foods that they're eating can their mean that there's like a slower transit for like those poo's to sort of go round in the body. More recent research has come out that they are looking at the gut biome. So in the body, we have micro bacteria that's in the body. So we have a mixture of good and bad bacteria and we sort of have that sort of 60, 40, 60, 30, you know, that sort of ratio. It's not 50, 50 and we need good and bad bacteria. So for some of our children and the research is suggesting. So it's more established obviously in the States and here we're doing a lot of research as well and there's lots of studies that have been done around that bacteria being an imbalance with a lot of our autistic children and therefore when there's more bad bacteria that's in in the body, it then means that it's more difficult to break the food up and for that to allow to then pass through the body. So this is why you get that more prevalent to be in sort of constipation and other sort of poo difficulties. So that imbalance then, so is it purely down to what they're eating or is there any kind of with autism? Is there any kind of genetic aspect to that at all? That's what they're looking at. So in the States, they're actually doing studies where so they're trying to almost, it's not the technical term, but it's almost like put in other family members gut bacteria into the body to then be able to bring that balance up so that then the body is then able to digest the food and be able to pass that. Yeah, they're called fecal trans, is it a fecal transplant or something to call it? Yeah, and it changes, because obviously there's a gut brain connection isn't it? It changes the things that they want to eat as well, so it changes that and preferences and stuff as well. Yeah, that's crazy. How do I like these creatures in your stomach? Yeah, so we've got like, yeah, so we've got like, you know, there's thousands of these microbiomes inside the body, and that's a large majority of those are in the gut and that's why they say that that's like our second brain because that's sort of when we're thinking about that gut brain connection, we're thinking about what's happening inside the tummy is directly influenced our children's thoughts and feelings equally, our children's thoughts and feelings are directly influenced in their gut as well. So if our children are then in a situation where they don't feel safe, comfortable, regulated, that's then going to affect how and when they who, for instance. Well, that's nuts. So again, like it'd be easy to think that coming and speaking to you that you're just going to talk about, if you see your child do this, then then now you need to do this and then you need to do this, but there's so much more that you have to have to account for. Yeah, so that's when we think is when you're thinking about toileting and, you know, how to progress or where do you start, you know, a lot of people just say, oh, all you've got to do is just sit the child on the toilet. No, no, don't even start there because surprisingly all the families that I speak to have all tried that and it hasn't necessarily gone to plan, but that's not where we start. We have to start inside the body. We need to help our children's inside body to be able to get that regulated, calm and then be able to then move on to that next stage. So things like the probiotics supplements. Good? Yeah, so when we're looking at those, we're looking at prebiotics, probiotic and postbiotics. So it's not just like, there was that many. Yeah, so it's not just sort of like, yeah, we'll just have that and then we'll just go with it. But yeah, so it is looking at those type of things as well, but it's not, it's like anything that we sort of talk about today, especially. It's not, we don't just say, right, that's it, we just got to focus on that because what I fans, we need, you need, it's almost like a layered effect, like that's just one part that you need to look at the gut health, but there's also other things. Do you see what I mean? It's not just one thing. But yeah, that is one of them. Okay, so this prebiotics, probiotics and postbiotics. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So what that's doing is it's all about sort of the number of microbiomes in the body. So it's about sort of building that number of microbiomes in the body. It's making sure that you've got enough of the good bacteria. So that's the other sort of side of things as well as sort of like regulating those. Yeah. So we're looking at those microbiomes in the body. Wow. Because I think with Lydia, we've got a box with sachets, which are from boots, I believe. Yeah. And they're just probiotics. Okay. So what's the difference between pre and a pro? Is that, I mean, obviously once before and the other one you. Yeah. So we're looking at like the number, the number of microbiomes. And we want to make sure that we've got a number of the good microbiomes. So that's what we're trying to do. It's almost like if you're thinking about preparing the body and then you're actually, you know, making sure that inside body is all okay. Okay. So sorry, we will move off this in a minute. I'm just a bit of geek. So, so prebiotics. Is that made? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So is it is a prebiotic essentially food for the bacteria that's already there or is it actually contain the bacteria itself? It contains, yeah, it contains the bacteria. So you know when you're sort of thinking about like the live, like when you've got like live, so my words are going to go again today, aren't they? Oh, like like yoghats and stuff. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, yeah, yes, thank you. Yeah Okay Okay, right so I'm just gonna use Thomas in an example and actually Lydia's what a year and a half two years behind She's five. Okay, so Thomas is gonna be seven in July It's still in that piece. We have sat him on the toilet and gone. We we's and boo boo's and like not really know what we're doing We just kind of hoping one day he's gonna click like what is let's assume The probiotics prebiotics and and the food he's having is spot on What kind of is it the same with typical children where you're looking for signs of when to start So typical sort of traditional toilet training Will have you believe that you need to do it by a certain age That you're looking for certain signs Um, and it's just like a tick box exercise and we're just training our children to do X-wise it that's what we need to do whereas What I promote and why try and encourage is that we're looking to help our children do more toilet learning So we're looking for them to learn to recognize understand and respond to those messages inside the body so when we're sort of Starting we're starting inside the body and one of the first things we need to look at is what type of poo That our children are passing So that's why we don't start on the toilet we start We're just looking at what sort of poo's that they're passing because that tells us What's actually happening with that microbiome how the Micro bacteria is actually working that's like a a window to our inside body by just looking at the poo So when we're thinking about poo Um, which I talk a lot about poo But when we think about too Um, we're thinking about the Bristol Stool Chart and according to the Bristol Stool Chart There's seven different types of poo's and they may not always look like the same as in the same color Or sometimes the same shape, but they're roughly like that's what we're still looking at and then by just looking at those poo's They more know whether our children need a little bit more help inside and I suppose that's what we would sort of be looking at as like a sign of whether our children are I wouldn't say that like that's a sign to say they're ready, but that's the sign that okay, right? We'll start with the poo if the poo's all doing what it's meant to be doing great. Okay, now we can start the next stage Just me okay, so what is the next stage? So the first first thing we need is a right if I show you it's not a real poo by the way No That's all right. We've as autism parents. We've handled a lot of poo Yeah, so we're just looking for a nice smooth obviously doesn't come with a cape and eyes, but although I have said that in training sometimes And people are going well actually my child has swallowed some googly eyes and I just have to remind her But yeah, so we're looking at a type four medium poo According to the Bristol Stalker So that's open up in the can yet. Okay, so once we've got to that type four medium poo We then know that the gut bacteria and everything is doing what it's meant to be doing So that's where it all sort of comes back Because the lid ears are very soft. Shall we say? Okay, yeah Thomas is were but it was because We were given in dairy like the smallest amounts of dairy and he has got in tolle said and we kind of thought well He's not having milk so we'll be okay, but like the tiniest amount of dairy made a huge difference To what he's pooing was like and we stopped that and almost overnight. It just went back to how he should be Okay, so Assuming we've got type four poo's I never thought I would say type four poo Assuming we've got Exactly type four poo I'll be going back like saying saying to miss did a type four poo she belongs thanks. What are you talking about? But you can you came I've seen this before you can go and google you can you can search the again the name of the chart Bristol so do you want me to show you the people? I've got a copy if you want. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, and all parents when I've had an ear is no That's it. That's the one Yeah, I've had all of them Yeah, so we're looking for a medium type four Who just here? Okay, that's what we're looking for. Yeah So yeah, I think we're at the porridge stage Yeah, but it's Yeah, okay, so and what sometimes what we sometimes find is that Sometimes we can find that our children are passing this so then we like sort of like you said Are we looking at like an intolerance? Or you know that type of thing or is this the only poo because sometimes we sort of see this and then when we're not really thinking about it We're just like we're just in the motion and just thinking let's just get rid of it We don't need to think about it anymore We don't realize that maybe there could be something else Yeah, yeah, we've had a mixture of some of the the heart of hard to poo's as well Yeah, so when we're sort of looking at this type of thing so anything sort of like type one two or three And our type three doesn't necessarily have to be a sausage sometimes I work with a lot of families where it's it's more round And what that showing is that the Um, there's like a build up inside and when you have a build up so if you can imagine that's like a build up You then have this softer poo that will then come around it So you tend to see the softer poo but actually there's this build up in here And if there's a build up it then means that the rectum is like stretched inside And that kind of blocks the messages for our children to actually feel when they need to go for a poo Um, I can imagine that's very uncomfortable as well It's uncomfortable but for a lot of our autistic children it actually means that um They actually they don't actually feel that so sometimes um, I've worked with lots of different families And sometimes they've actually had sort of like x-rays and things like that to sort of just sort of see what's happening um The child seems like you know they're going every day Everything seems okay, but actually we just need to get to the bottom of this have an x-ray and they're completely impacted But the child is not showing any signs of them and that's why We always start inside the body just monitoring those pooes Actually shows so much and you don't have to go through the x-ray because obviously for a lot of our children That's it's not something that we just go and have an x-ray do we? - No. - Not something that we do. So yeah, but you don't even have to get to that stage. So, yeah. - Okay, so we've - Type 4-10, - Type 4-10, yes. - Type 4-10, what's next? How do we get them to go to the next stage of, because the reason I ask is like, Thomas, he knows when he's gonna poo. The signals are all there 'cause he takes himself away. Oh, and this is another one, slight tangent. He's still, and I don't know why I was surprised, but he still wants privacy, even when he's doing it in his nappy. So he'll take himself away. And if you walk past the bedroom door, he's like, leave me alone, I want privacy. So he knows when he's gonna do it. He wants privacy when he does it. But it's just that in the next stage is - In the nappy. - Yeah. - This is an nappy, yeah. So that's why we always come back to that first stage, because when our children are taking themselves off somewhere, it's because it's almost trying to reduce how that's feeling outside of their body, as well as inside, 'cause inside it may be just like, 'cause their brain is gonna be like trying to understand what's going on inside, and they've got a lot to process anyway. And then if they know that they need to get that poo out, they try and take themselves off somewhere. So they can then try and reduce that how much more information that they've then got to process. So that's why they take themselves off. And then if, let you say, you walk past or just happen to hear you or, sometimes our children will have a certain circumstances. Like it has to be in the corner, facing the corner at, I've got, I'm working with families at the moment where children are laying horizontal, like on their tummies at the side of the rooms, they've got other families where the children are taking themselves off to the toy box. Our families are outside, certain circumstances, it could all be different, but it's all coming back to that same what's happening inside, they're trying to process all that information and they're trying to reduce that much. - Oh, it makes sense. - That's a book. So is essentially taking themselves away 'cause he's trying to reduce the input. - Yeah, that's a tree, then tree eyes are low, that is receiving. Yeah. - It's okay. - That makes total sense. - It's not slightly different to Lydia where, she doesn't know of that. - No. - She just moves it. - Just walking in the front room and then that's, it just happens there. Yeah. They're all different. Yeah. And that could be like what we were saying before, like when if you have, that's why we would like we sort of like to know what the patterns are because if we sort of identify pretending like this is a poo by the way, if you're pretending that there's a poo and there's like a build up, it then means that she may struggle to actually feel that and then you're just to end up with it's not just small amounts that can come out, it can be an actual, it looks like an actual poo that's being passed and have no feeling that that has actually passed at that point. But the good news is with all of that that it can come and it can, you can progress from that but it's making sure that we have the right starting point for each of our children because like you say, it's even with your cells, they're very, very different situations but we still need to make sure we've looked at that starting point. Okay. This is so interesting. It's a tough wish when I get back. My wife was very excited because she's like, "Oh, oh, because there's been anyone like that's listening or watching this." It does and this is why obviously you help so many people. Like a lot of us just kind of feel like we hit a wall and there's some parents that have got children that are teenagers and we've got much younger children and there is a fear that we don't know if we're ever going to get over that hurdle or if we do, when is it going to be? And so, yes, speaking to you, it's super, super interesting. Okay. I'm trying to try and play this through. Yeah. So going on from that then, see we're at that stage. I mean, what are some of the mistakes that parents commonly make when they want to start the process? First of all, nobody makes mistakes. Just going to say that. I knew you were going to say that. No, because I just think, yeah, parents aren't making mistakes. They're just going on an information that they have been told and a lot of that information is being fed by the media and it's a lot of misinformation and a lot of based on our neurotypical children that, you know, based on the fact that, you know, when we reach like an age, for instance, that all children should be potty and toilet trained by between 18 months and two years. Well, that's based on the fact that by between the ages of 18 months and two years, there are children's bladders will stretch and their retens will stretch and then their brains will be able to recognise those sensations. But that isn't about an age for everybody. It's just that sometimes people may not recognise that until they are five, maybe not until they are six, maybe because of what we've just talked about, there's actually something preventing them from recognising it. So it's not necessarily that they're getting, you know, and when you look at the media, there's a lot of things there that are saying, you know, all you've got to do is start 18 months, two years, why isn't your child not started? You know, you should be able to just sit your child on the toilet when actually some of our children may be struggling with some of their sensory processing differences and actually the sensation of the toilet seat, you know, their proprioception being able to actually sit comfortably in that position, you know, sometimes our children actually find it difficult to sit long enough for anything to actually get asked, it's sort of there and you're off. And actually, you know, and that's what we were saying, that's what I've meant earlier when we have to start where our children are. So if our children are struggling to regulate their body to sit long enough, then that's maybe that's where we need to start with our children to be able to help them regulate. So that's why when you sort of, so they're not mistakes, but they're misinformation that it's more of a general information. 18 months, sit them on the toilet or the potty, remove the nappy and when we're thinking about our autistic children, actually that nappy, you know, we're not meeting any of that, but just removing the nappy is actually going to make them feel more uncomfortable and not safe and actually that isn't what we would do either. So you have to really look at where our children are and what is right for our individual children. There's so many misconceptions in there because I've heard, again, people trying to give advice and understand why they're giving advice, they're going, all you need to do is remove the nappy, just put them in pants and then the sensation of being wet or whatever else will start to click and they won't want to do that and you can try them to use a toilet. There's so much stuff out there which I can understand why parents get completely overloaded and as you say, recently we've got certain social media stars that there's a lot of ridicule from people that don't understand which puts additional pressure on parents going, "Can this be my child's 5, 6, 7, 8?" and they're still in nappies and there's that kind of omushame feeling that comes into it as well which puts additional pressure on. And that whole sort of blame culture that seems to be, you know, like this is what you're meant to do because it's down to that whole training and if you're not doing XYZ therefore it's your fault. It's your fault as a parent and it's your fault as a child. And that's not true because all that means is that a child is not about training them, it's about that they're learning, they're on that journey. So actually if you look at it that our children are learning to recognise those signals, if they're not able to do that, that means we're at that stage. If they are able to recognise then we're on the understanding part so then we move on to, we've recognised those signals, we're now on the understanding part. Now I've got this feeling, what do I do with this feeling? Where does it go? And then that's where we go to that next part but just going straight in there with that's what you do, it's not, you know, and that's where the blame bit comes because it's like well you're not doing it, therefore it's your fault. So we need to get to the understanding part, we can't just keep placing them on the toilet every five minutes and. Yeah and actually that's going to do the. It's like, should I say? And that's what other people say, you know, just keep putting them on the toilet, they're getting in there eventually. But actually if like for wheeze for instance, if you keep putting our children on the potty or the toilet, it means that their bladder is not going to feel, feel, and if their bladder is not full, it means it doesn't stretch and then they can't recognise the feeling. There's a lot of science behind this, you don't, I guess we don't really think about that because I'm going to the loop. But then when you break it down for our children, you know, when you just sort of think, all you've got to do is just go to the toilet but actually you've got to think, well I've got to recognise that feeling, I've got to understand what that means and then I've got to respond by going in the right place at the right time to get that out. Yeah, yeah. But I break it all down, so I know that sounds overwhelming, sorry, but I break it all down, make it sound really simple and we just, that's why we always stay start inside and then we work outside because that would just do a lot of work. Okay, I remember like, I remember how excited we were just when Thomas recognised that the nappies were in the bathroom in the toilet. So like we were trying to like build a connection in some way that okay the place where the toilet is, we hadn't tried putting them on the toilet, we were just putting the nappies next to the toilet, so we were trying to build this connection with toileting and that room. So like now he'll, if he needs, if he needs a nappie change or something, he'll just go and get a nappie from next to the toilet and then he'll bring it to us and then we change him in the same room. But we don't know what to do next and I'm guessing I can ask you that question all day long but like you just said earlier, like it's different for every child, isn't it? It is, it is. There's still, there's still, there is certain things that we would look at, like I say we're looking at that recognising first, so we want to make sure 100% we've got, you know, that's the first sign, then we want that understanding so like you say in the right room, in the right place and then we break that down even further that it's making sure that our children are actually feeling safe in that place as well and when we sort of talk about safe, it's not saying trips and hazards and you know, not going to fall over that type of thing, we're talking about safe inside our body and for some of our children the bathroom and toilet isn't always a safe place for them and that could be because of like the sensory side of things so it could be it's quite bright, it could be the echoey, it could be the smell, you know, there's lots of different reasons and then what we do is we try and break that all down to identify what makes a child more comfortable to be in that place. Yeah, so we sort of, it's sort of breaking it down in sort of stages as well. what we do. And with that again, things are thrown out. Should we be using rewards if they do go to the toilets with neurotypical or neurodiverse children or is this kind of a false thing that's put out there? So there's a lot of things out there that say about all you need to do is just give a reward. I've actually worked with families where other professionals have advised autistic children to have rewards and just said the reward isn't big enough. So I've worked with families where the rewards started off with like a small car or something. They then went to the biggest Lego set that you could ever imagine and surprisingly they didn't happen. And then the professional said, well, you know, what is it that you really want? You know, what is the child really wants? And this particular child was was verbal and they said, oh, I really want a new bed. So they said, this is what you've got to do, mum and dad, you've got to get them a new bed. So the family followed this professional's advice and brought them a new bed. Surprisingly, it's not a bad. Yeah, we just make a stuffing list. The thing is though, when we're thinking about rewards, it's going back to that sort of behavioural approach and it's that we're sort of that cause and effect. And what we're assuming is that a child is not pooing or not weeing in the toilet on purpose. So if we, when we're thinking about pooing and weeing, we're actually saying it's because we're wanting them to recognise the signals and they're not doing it because they're not able to recognise those signals or understand that. And it doesn't matter how many rewards that we give our children, it's not going to work. So if you don't know what you're being rewarded for. No. Okay, that's a really good point actually. It's not that they're choosing not, they're choosing not to do it. They don't know that that's even on the cards, do they? Yeah. And so often, yeah exactly. And so often, I work with lots of families where they'll say, though they definitely know that they're going, you know, like they're soiling, like consistently. And what can happen is that they don't know that the poo is coming in the body because they can't feel it stretching. What they're actually feeling is that the bottom cheeks, the actual poo is coming in between the bottom cheeks and that's what they're responding to. As opposed to the stretching, you know, like your eye will be like, will fill the stretching inside and that will turn a message to a brain that says, you need to go for a poo now and we'll go, all right, then off we go. Whereas our children, they don't have, they might not feel that. They'll actually feel it coming in between and what you see is a quick, got to hold that on to, you know, and then you get to the right place. Good to see me. So, yeah, a lot of children could just be again blocked, shall we say. And I think last time I went to the pediatrician with Lydia, this came up in a discussion and I think they administered, I can't remember what it was now, some sort of medication or whatever it was, but the way they explained it was, it would go into the system and it would almost tackle the blockage from the outside in almost like a corkscrew effect on it. And they were saying, yeah, you may notice things get runnier before they get better. So that would be sort of breaking that down. Yeah. Yeah. So there's lots of different medications, so laxative medication. So there's some medications where you have macrogole medications, which will be like your mucle, your laxido, cosmical, that type of medication and that's like water to the large bowel and it breaks that, breaks any poo that's built up and in the rectum as well. And then you have like your stimulant, so you've got your scena, and bicecodal, that type of thing and then you've got your laxido, like your softener. But yeah, it's the macrogole medications, so like the cosmical, mucle, that type of thing. But it's always making, sometimes families can be described the right medication if the child is like impacted, but it's not always shared in the right way. Because sometimes it's just sort of like take a sachet, take two sachets, and you're, I always describe it, which I don't want you to think too closely about it, but I describe it a bit like a poo in a water flume. So obviously we wouldn't want to have a poo in a water flume. But if you did have a poo in a water flume, you'd have the medication that would be the water. And if you had like one sachet, it may just sort of not quite reach the poo. If you had like two sachets, it may reach the poo, but the poo's not going anywhere, whereas you actually need a lot more to actually push that poo all the way through. So obviously nobody wants poo in the water flume, but to try and explain it. I'm sorry, I mean, Jumbo. Yeah, I was just saying, so with that as well, we hear stories of a child doing really well and starting to get used to going to the toilet, and then there's suddenly a regression. Is that something you've come across as well? Regression is a really, it's an interesting one, that one. Because what I tend to see is that it's not always a regression. It's something that's always been there. So when we've been talking about poo and obviously talking about that a lot today, and when we're talking about poo, it's almost like poo is like a cycle. So for a lot of families, I've had in the past where families have contacted me and said, oh my goodness, things are really difficult at the moment. We really need your help. So I'm like, yep, that's fine. I can see you next week or the week after. And then also they've message and say, no, everything's okay now. We're, you know, all the poo's are all okay. So you're like, okay, I'm here if you need me. So, and then a few weeks later, they come back again. And then it's just that cycle. So what happens with poo is that you can go in a cycle of like passing, you know, your type 4 poo, and then all of a sudden you could have like really loose poo or different types of poo and it becomes a little bit more tricky. And then it can go in a cycle again. But the thing to remember with poo is that's why we do like the monitoring. It's because it doesn't go away. It just changes. So it might be that, so I see families where it might be, they have passed like an incredibly large poo. Like, oh my goodness, it's blocked the toilet system. We've got why a coat hangers, you know, it's huge. And the families are like, oh my goodness, how's that even possible for a small four-year-old or a three-year-old to pass that sort of poo. And then all of a sudden they're passing sort of what they think is like normal sort of poo again. So you can have that sort of cycle that you can sort of have that and then you can have a loose poo and but it doesn't go away. It's just building up inside. That's me. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Like if you build a routine on a type four poo, you could totally understand that that would completely get thrown off when that changes. Either way, you know, close to a type one. How many types are there? Eight? Seven. Seven. That is the worst bingo card ever. I have actually done some games and things where people have actually find the pictures to match them. I can imagine they do actually. Yeah. Is there what's the support like with the NHS for stuff like this? To the kind of granular detail that you provide it? Non-existent. So we've got the continent service and families, some of the families that I work with have waited quite a while to get to see the continent service and they will then sort of do an assessment and then see whether you need to have the constipation service. So then you might have waited for the continent service, depending on which area you are in, you may be able to be supported in the continent service or you may then be referred onto the constipation clinic to then be able to be seen in that way. A lot of families say that depending it's like a postcode lottery for some families. So some families are saying you know, have had an amazing support for my continent's team, they've been amazing. Other families have said they've really struggled because you know staffing numbers have been quite low. Continent's teams in some areas are looking at more product providers so providing nappies, you know slips, pull-ups to help manage as opposed to having the time and the resources to help families through. But it's a postcode lottery, you know, everybody out there is wanting to help but I think what I'm finding is that a lot of our autistic families are struggling because they're trying to share those traditional methods in some ways and it's not always coming across more individual approach that a lot of our families need. Support is there, there is support out there that it's trying to sort of filter through that more neuroferming sensory friendly nervous system friendly and autistic friendly approaches. And I guess this has a knock on effect and everything doesn't it? So if you have a child that is constipated or is not having the right or the correct sort of poo that's going to affect behavior, sleep, anxiety which then knocks into something else and something else. This is part of a wider thing then. Yeah, so if our children are struggling with the poo's it can influence how and when they sleep and obviously how and when they sleep then obviously influences their sort of like window of tolerance when we're thinking about emotion regulation, sensory processing, then being able to access their, even access their executive function. So when you're thinking about executive function we're thinking about our children being able to follow the sequence of events, you know, know what comes next, you know, that type of thing. And if their body is trying to work out whether their body feels safe, comfortable, that sort of thing they can't actually access that so that then makes, you know, that's why it becomes really tricky when we're looking, you know, to just put in toilet training which is why you need to look at where our children are on that journey. Definitely. And is there a point where a parent should seek medical attention? Does it ever get to the point where this is beyond just waiting for an appointment that you should actually seek medical attention? Yeah, so when we're thinking about sort of poo's, we're thinking about poo's that need to be passed either three times a day or three or four times a week. If you're in a situation where your child is, you know, going more than three or four days without passing a poo then we obviously need to get medical, you know, we need to sort of see your GP in the first instance just to sort of check out to see what's sort of happening. So. Okay. All right. Now, in a perfect world, right, what should I now be looking at for Thomas? Right? Just Thomas is an example. He's kind of, he has awareness of when he wants to go because he takes himself away. He's assuming he's comfortable in the bathroom in the toilet, but that's a really interesting point because although he goes in there, does he actually feel 100% safe in there? I don't know. But assuming a child then feels safe in the environment, what's the next kind of stage? I realise these are probably quite difficult questions because I'm asking you for a quite abroad answer for a specific case. I know people are going to be screaming at me going, "Ask this, ask this." So we start with recognising, we then do the understanding. So once you're in the right place, we then want to try and help our children to get those poo's in the right area, but not actually sitting on the toilet. Oh! Okay. Okay. How did you do that? So again, it's child-specific, so it's not sort of general for everybody. So for some of our children, if I give you some examples, no names mentioned, obviously. Of course. Of some families that I'm working with. So they had a very similar situation where their child would only poo in the napkin in a certain place, we then managed to get them, they would then poo in the napkin in the bathroom. So that was the next sort of stage that they did there. Then they wanted to be able to poo on the toilet, so then they were sitting with progress. Obviously it's not just like day one, we do this, you know. There's little steps in between here. But then we're then looking at sitting on the toilet, but in the napkin, so it's down, sitting on the toilet, just feeling comfortable to do that. And then gradually, so now with this particular family, we're now at the stage where they'd then go on to the point where they were hot, so if you could imagine, come, if we could have done this, so if you could imagine this was the pull up, so you've got like the tabs either side, so that's the pull up. They then had ripped either side, so then they had it between them and they were holding, so they were like holding like for dear life, you know, literally holding onto the while they were pooing. Okay. But you know. So now we're at the stage where it's there, most of it is going into the toilet and the family are just like, oh my god, it is like, we have that. But yeah, it's not like it's, you know, they're stated in between, but it just gives you an idea of how we sort of break down. So it's a gradual process, isn't it? Yeah, it sounds like some of our children can just sort of, yeah, some, some may sort of like just go from one to like into the bathroom, it's like, you know, to some it's a natural progression for them, but others may need a little bit of support to get to the bathroom. Did you see what I mean? Yeah, it makes, yeah, and it's having patience and that consistency to see it out rather than are today I'm not feeling like it. So you're placing, you've got like the standard steps, whatever they are, but you're essentially adding as many steps, a necessary for that specific child in between those typical steps. So like even, even though I know Thomas would be the same way, they need to feel like they're doing it in the nappy. So you take the sides off, but still hold it. So the feeling of the nappy still being on is still there and then gradually move that further and further away from them every time, like I'm just trying to think with Thomas, what I might try with Thomas, but okay, that makes sense. You've just, yeah, you're really helping them. I just put in all these additional and it all comes from them feeling safe in the bells. Because if I think it's really important, isn't it? Because you could be creating, depending on how you go about it, you could be then creating kind of anxiety and pressure on the child to do it. Are you going to remove it today? You're removing it today. There's a lot of that. That's why you start inside because if they're not feeling safe to begin with, then actually just saying right today, we have decided this is where. We can't be led by us. It has to be led by the child. Because again, last episode, remember we were talking about the summer with Thomas and as many many parents and I was going to do the same with leaders, right, summer holidays now, we're going to start, we're doing toilet training in the summer holidays. We're even considering whether the child's ready based on the steps that you've just mentioned. It'll be like, right, it's going to be sunny weather. We'll do it outside. We'll start out, you know, we'll bring it in. It's going to be a piece off. Yeah. So everything that we discussed last week is completely against. Because again, I suppose, again, if you jump, if you take too much of a lit, because trust is going to be like safety in the environment, but then trust with you is going to be huge. If they think that you're just going to make them take this giant leap, like psychological, you could create constipation issues. You could psychologically make it, etc. You could, yeah, don't want to go at all because they're the fear of the bathroom. Yeah. And again, just so that if anybody's listening, that isn't the family's fault. That's ever happened because we get it all their fault. It's all your fault, joking. Joking. Joking. So if shaman is so nice and way brutal, it's all your fault. This has put up other questions though. So if you are correctly following the steps working with your sales shaman and working with another continent's consultants following very similar steps and we've obviously learnt it's a lot deeper than we initially thought it was going to be, you're doing everything you can. And then the child's at school who are trying to implement something at school. Oh dude, such a good point. Do they always marry up or do schools have a very different opinion how this goes? Yeah, obviously, yep, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get somebody in we're gonna be working with them Taking them to the bathroom. So what we need to look at is that for a lot of our autistic children And I say our cuz my son's autistic as well. So for a lot of our autistic children It's not easy for them to transfer From one environment to another so it's almost like so I'm I think I put a post valid recently where if You may go to you know your toilet at home your toilet at home may have a pull down handle You may go to nannies or grandma's house and that's got a push Flush sort of thing maybe at school and it's a pull down handle like this Wherever they are that's they've got to learn That toileting in that place. It's not about just you've learnt toileting now So this is what happens like within summer holidays. We've we've learnt toileting therefore they've learnt toileting But actually we've then got to help them to learn it at school and actually do they feel safe in school is there You know is there something to help them understand that actually you know What's the connection between that toilet and this toilet you and I know that that's a toilet? That's a toilet Yeah, the toilets, but that's because we can transfer that information whereas our children a lot of our children need help to transfer that information And that's when we're looking at school Why we often you know there's lots of difficulties because families are saying Well, they can do it at home which they can yeah, that was and it's gonna be my next question. Yeah. Yeah, sorry No, no, no, that's no that's perfect. I was gonna ask you that and you answered it The toileting is like I don't know loads of people who are out to school with who would refuse Yeah, never secondary school not not a job Our thog going to go into our thog in Wales not held it for a week wasn't happening So you can imagine for you can imagine for an autistic child Yeah, and you just sort of if you just thought of obviously don't think about that too closely, but if you think about that just sort of When you're thinking about like secondary school like for us, it's sort of you're thinking about are they gonna You know, there's people outside can they hear you know, can they you know smell it? Yeah It's a walk in yeah, yeah, and that's what we're thinking and for some of our children They may they may not be thinking what do they think they may not be you know really care about what they think but they may have their own things that they're actually and yeah need to sort of understand and be able to do It's a fascinating topic Honestly really is and the other thing that makes it fascinating is it's such a huge Issue for lack of a better word for families And obviously, you know you got an autistic child and like It's one of those things that if we could just get past this Our life would be so much easier Even from a cost point of view You know the cost of nappies and not knowing when that's gonna end It's such a it's an issue that Not many people talk about necessarily Yeah, it's and just having a conversation today thinking you know, we've been doing this podcast There are over 12 months and we thought we'd heard everything but we had my understanding of toilet training No, I just realized it's so minuscule Compared to the level of granularity to it. I have no idea which now makes me think back to again Not to harp on about it But that kind of some of the stuff you read in the press will go back to kind of Louise Thompson and Maiden Chelsea And they're kind of comments about a certain number of children are attending school and not even toilet trained and kind of a The little kind of cheeky grin and a bit of a laughter about it. Yeah This is it's not as simple as As long as he's parenting no You get a lot of parents if you actually Judged and if you think if you actually understand like how the body works and we haven't even gone into how the brain works either But just you know if you understand how the body works then You wouldn't make comments like that because then you'd know that actually that child is trying They're utmost best to Understand what's going on in their body and the parents are trying beyond trying Everything they can possibly do to try and help their child and and they they're doing everything they're told I mean I've had some So I do some calls with families and has some calls recently and families have been said told that you know They've been clusters like neurotic parents because they're not doing yeah, yeah, well, and I'm just like That's just so not true. You're doing everything you can and the reason it's there's a reason why it's not working and You know, but they just haven't got to the bottom of No pun intended, but there's no you know, there's a reason why there's a reason why things happen Do you find because this is something I always think about that when when these children finally crack it Is it quite self-rewarding did you see that they're like oh this is so much better? Or is it is it a slow process where they're still trying to get used to it and I kind of preferred it before Yeah, there's there is a part of that whether it's that transit yeah again It's that transition and for some of our children It's it's not just transition from one place to another. It's transition from one activity to another. It's yeah It can be quite small as well. Yeah, I mean I mean there's lots of happy tears here with the parents I guess I guess the other thing to to kind of bear in mind is like you know It's not that it's just a case that the child will crack it and that's it then there's gonna be times where it'll go Two steps back one step for you know all these sort of things like oh we've cracked it now and then it'd be like oh no We're not quite there so it's it's always kind of managing those expectations as well. Yeah, and it's and it's um It's also sort of like thinking about with the weather and things and obviously um sort of you know Have like the summer and we've got those like heat waves and things What was working when it was like the cooler weather? We also then you know, maybe they need to drink more, you know Are they having enough and they may have been having enough to drink when it was the cooler weather But then when we're thinking about the hotter weather and we're thinking about helping the body We you know, it may not be enough and then because obviously then we're sort of You know some some of our children are sort of more like mouthbreavers are therefore they're actually You know, they actually need to drink more because yeah, they sort of become yeah, you just made a very good point Lid another another outside factor Lidious teaving at the moment. Yeah, so there's certain foods that she's staying away from obviously because it's it's causing pain So she's back onto soft foods and refusing anything that you know crunchy so that's obviously gonna have it in A connection with what she's digesting at the moment going back to the scale. Yeah, so that will affect the ball So there's lots of different things that just you probably we don't even think about no not at all Um, okay, you also mentioned we haven't even started talking about the brain yet Yeah, because this is just this this is gonna be interesting as well and you were talking about sleep as well So I didn't even know sleep or something that you worked with Yes, so yes, I'm continent sleep and understand so I'm this me looking at my little My little thing that I have that's all connected. Okay, so it's connected by the gut brain connection so When we're thinking about sleep um if our children are sort of waking up um In the night Sometimes that can be because our children are relaxed and therefore that poo is their moving can be Poo related at some sometimes not always obviously, but um it can be poo related and then It's almost like that poo as it's moving. It's actually moving the inside of that large bow And that's sort of almost like it's it's not scraping But it's that sort of it can feel a little uncomfortable for our children And that's when we sort of have our children waking in the middle of the night because that's sort of relaxing and that's sort of Helping so when we're thinking about that with the relaxing, but that wasn't the question. Sorry off when I've tangent in night I never talked with generally talking about poo so it's fine. Yeah Um, yeah, so when we're thinking um about the brain um We're thinking about that gut brain connection so With the brain we're thinking about it if you sort of think it in sort of free sort of stages So you're thinking about sort of the the brain stem you then thinking about the emotional brain and then the thinking brain So those sort of free sort of stages um The brain stem is sort of like the first part and that would indicate um It tells us when Our children are tired their hungry first e Um, they need to go to the toilet that sort of thing and then it comes through to the emotional brain and it scans the body Does this feel safe? Does this feel safe? It's constantly scanning the body does it feel safe? If there's a there's looking for a yes or no so the emotional part of the brain is looking for yes or no if it's a no The body then Goes into either a fight flight freeze or form or flop response So it's in the protein. protection mode for the body, it then means that our children can't access that logical and thinking part of the brain. It's the emotional brain that is then taken over. So then when we're thinking about sleep, it then means that our children are in that protection mode. We can't settle off to sleep, you know, finding it with our current motions. It can all influence and so many ways. So that's where that gut brain connection sort of comes in. Okay. So is there a connection here with with meltdowns as well then? Because obviously you're just saying them and everything shuts down in its just pure emotion. Yes. Okay. So is there a gut connection with meltdowns on some level then? Yes. Oh, why? Okay. This is a lot to get my head. I feel it's going to be this is stage one. This is stage two. This is stage three. There you go. I can't do chart is that only trend. There's no. There's no. So for instance, going back to kind of services and everything else like that, Lydia, renowned bad sleeper. Yes. Very famous for her. Famous for the land for a bad sleep. And obviously gut issues as well. So we could have been going through, you know, it's it could be primarily the gut that's causing her to kind of wake up and then stay awake. Whereas when you when any parent goes to a pediatrician or the GP, it's automatically, let's get some melatonin into your child, which again could be, you know, in some cases, a lot of things to do. Yes. But yeah. But whereas what I always look at, when I'm supporting families with sleep, we always want to make sure again, because I talk about we look at that inside body first and then the outside because if you're giving that medication, that's why some families will say, oh, it just doesn't work. And others will say, well, amazing work to treat. But that's because we need to make sure that we've looked at the inside body. We looked at all those underlying factors and then it can help because it can help. That's that. Yeah, it absolutely can help. We've had many conversations where parents go, it's been the best thing since life's bread. My experience of it was not great because you would, you know, we know it's to help them fall asleep and you can have slow release whatever the case would be, but she'd be, she'd be awake. But it's crazy that the automatic response is, let's not do any further investigation. Just try a little bit more medical. So that's where you're looking at a medical model. And for our children, that's why I sort of promote a holistic P and P approach because we need to be looking inside and outside of our body. So yes, medication works. And yes, 100% that, you know, if we need it, we need and the same for like a laxative, some things like that. If we need it, we need it. Yeah. But actually, there's there's a lot of other things that we we do as well. It's not just one. And I think that's not necessarily. Yeah, it's not necessarily tackling the problem. It's just easing it or masking it. Whereas, as you say here, we need to be dealt with. Or we could be delving a lot more into this. Yeah. To the why I always say we always look at the why. Why is it happening? The why? Yeah. And that's kind of that's that's an issue across the board. I mean, again, not knocking GPs, but a lot of the time GPs want to just treat the symptom rather than find out what the cause of the symptom was in the first place. Okay. So if you look at a GPs, a situation that they've sort of got seven seven eight minutes per family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you never used to be like that. And it took seven minutes just to explain the the scale, the Bristol scale. So you can yeah. So so what if you've got so okay, so food timing, would that be something that could be an issue prior to sleep as well. And so if some if a child is like having something to eat immediately before or like drink. Oh my god milk milk and cookies. Not like having a if they have like a lot of children, they need like a bottle of milk to settle down and go to sleep. Yeah. I mean, Lydia still does. Yeah. If could that be something that yeah, so when they have that and then they made it to go to sleep and then obviously they're lying down. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously yeah, all sort of and interact. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, the other thing like when we're looking at sleep is often we sort of when we're looking at sleep, we're just looking at we go to bed at this time. It's all about the actual bedtime bedtime routine. But whereas what we actually need to look at for sleep, we're actually looking in the daytime. Because actually the daytime that we need to look at to help regulate that body to prepare it to be able to sleep. So if we just focus like at night time, so a lot of families will say, you know, this is what we're doing here at this time. We actually need to you know, our bedtime routine sort of starts from school finishing, you know, when you come home from school, that's you know, it happens even before that. But you know, in that home. There's a lot of stuff that you could track. This is why the India is going to be really really. I think you'll be able to track you so good for stuff like this. Track. Meal time. What was it when they were working on? Yeah. The what the pool was. Yeah. That particular time. Yeah. It's it. So the reason I ask about timing is I got like we've both got it. These these whoops and you can like input. It'll give you a recovery the next day and it'll ask you like when was your last meal, right? And you could track loads of different behaviors and supplements that you take. And the one thing for me that gives me poor sleep is if I eat too late. So if if I go to bed at like 10 o'clock, if I eat past eight and I if I've not got like a two-hours window clear, my my heart rate is quite high when I'm asleep because I'm still digesting the food and I'm lying horizontal. And I have quite disturbed sleep then. If I if I give it two or three hours of no food before I go to sleep, I have an absolutely amazing night. But 9 to 10 have a bowl of cocoa pops and I completely ruin it. But the point is on those nights I don't. I have a really good sleep. So I'm thinking with our kids if like I mean Thomas last night, breasted teeth and he was like, "Junk, I'm having these three sweets." And we've just brushed your teeth. But obviously you're trying to avoid a meltdown. See like fine, have your sweets and go to bed. You know a lot of these kids are eating a lot of food and then going to bed, going to sleep. And yeah, there's going to be a lot of digestion happening while they're lying horizontal. Got a certainly aspects isn't there of this that could could affect things. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That's why I find it so fascinating. Not obviously not over our children, but it's I think the reason I find it fascinating, not because I want you know, I want to help our children, but it's it's all about it. I can break it all down. So we're breaking it all down. So we can just sort of like, okay, this is what we're looking at. Okay, right, we've looked at that. That can impact this, right? That's and it's almost like, yes, we can we can get to the root of this. And that means it's going to make a huge difference for our families. You've done this with so many families. You must go into a situation, even if it's a completely unique situation, which I'm not sure how unique the situations are after you've done it for this, this long. But you must be able to pull from lots of different experiences from different children and pull different pieces into it to to kind of map out something unique for that child, even though you've pulled different ideas from lots of other families that you've worked with. And it must be so rewarding. And that's going back to that. Just very, very quickly just to build on that. That's why somebody like yourself, I mean, is so important out there because otherwise we would all just as parents be handed an A4 sheet. Yeah. And we'd all be following a one size fits all approach. There's no like, he can't approach it. Yeah. It doesn't work because every child, yes, they may be neurodiverse, autistic, like our children are probably about as similar as they could possibly get. Even though they are super different. Yeah. Yeah. But they are. They put their own similar on paper. You go profoundly autistic, nonverbal, nappies, yeah. You go. But they're so much in between in between. Yeah. Exactly. I mean, that's why somebody like yourself is invaluable. So that's why I actually put together the our support group, which is called a hat. Is that okay to say? Yeah. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to ask you all this as well. 100%. Yeah. So it's a fact. Sorry. Sorry, before I forget, you should join the discord as well. Yes. Sorry, carry on. We'll come back to that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So that's why I put together our support group, which is called how to get the pin poo in the loo. So it's got all the resources. We've got the videos so that families can watch it, like if they're up in the middle of the night, you know, that's the only time that they need something to send them off to sleep. There's why not, which my videos are not good at first. But yeah, but it's just sort of all watch your podcast. Yeah. Just watch it at a time that's right, right for them. And then we've got the live sessions to then individualize everything. So it's not just like you say, I mean, we've got so many different like fun activities to like build the skills to help our children to be able to, you know, do everything from wiping and been able to sort of build those muscles up as well to be able to recognise those ways and poo's. But it's individualizing that as well because it's not just about having the information and watching the video. You actually want to speak to someone and say, you know, like families that come to their lives, they would just say, "Right, I've done that. We've done this now. Now what do I need to do next?" Okay, right. This is what we need to do next. Okay. And when you've done that, come back to me and we'll do the next bit. So it's, it's families like it because it's just small bite-sized pieces. It's not like, here we go. Here's a whole 30-30 page report. Off you go. Good luck. As autism parents, we need everything bite-sized because we're so sort of information overloaded and so many different things as well. And also it's not saying that that's one way is going to work. It's just sort of the information we have is like, this is why this is happening. But this is how to individualise it for your child. So that's sort of, yeah. So where else can people find you? So more than welcome to check out our website. So it's clear steps consultancy. So www.clearstepsconsultancy.co.uk. Also our Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn and that's down as Continence, Consultant and Trainer. Purely, if anybody out there can help me with changing my name I feel like that'll be crying, but that's another story. Yeah, all my time helping families, I can't sort out that side of things. So yeah, it's down as Continence. So it's Continence Consultant and Trainer. So yeah, there's lots of help, you know, help families in so many different ways. And I think, even if it's the only thing that sort of to take it away, that actually families are not alone in this, then you know, it's not taking it away that what they're going through doesn't matter. It's not that. It's just that there are other families that are going through this as well. And you know, within our group, all the families in the group will just say, at last, I thought I was the only one in my school, but actually there's other people, you just, because it's not something you don't sort of go to a playground. So some of us don't even go to a playground, but even if you did go to a playground, it's not like how she put it around. It's not, it's not, you know, how's the bit wetting going? No, it's all right, actually, or you don't, you don't talk about things. No, it's not, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. In a transport, so you don't, you don't even get to see anybody else. See the parents? No. It must be super, super rewarding when you help these families. Like you just said, like you see a lot of tears. Happy tears. Yeah, there's lots of happy tears. That's just for me. Yeah, super rewarding, I'm sure. Yeah, I think because I just, I know how much it means to the families, you know, I feel like I'm on that journey with them. So, you know, when we start off, it's, you know, like families are saying, you know, we've had, like sort of one of the families that are supporting, they had sort of like 15 wet underwear changes in a day. And they're just like, I just don't know, we can't go anywhere. I want to go out, but we can't go anywhere because it's just, it's just constant. And then we get to the point where it's like it's, it's one change. And they're like, they're gone on holiday. And they've never been on holiday because they didn't know how they would manage the journey. Or, you know, it's, it's just the bigger picture that people just don't realise unless you're, you're in it and, and walking that journey and helping families that it, it's not just we and poo. It's, it's the whole, you know, it's so much more. It's, it's that quality of life, isn't it? It's, you know, I've had a family, yeah, family say that, you know, then they need to look at the toilet in because the after school club has said that they're not going to be able to take their child next year. You know, so that then means, you know, both parents are working and they were like, I don't, I don't know how we're going to do that. You know, other families are not able to go to work because they're being called into school constantly to change their children. You know, they, they want to work and they're like, there must be another way. I like, there is, there is. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I've, I've met, I've learnt that I knew next to nothing at the start. And there's a lot more that I need to get my head round, which I wouldn't have even been on my radar. Yeah. We have this conversation. We've squeezed this in like just over an hour of, you know, yeah. And I'm sure we could do another episode of it's okay with you in the future. But maybe we, we open up to questions that maybe a common question that we've completely, yeah, not even thought about. We can do another session of just a Q&A with you. Yeah. I'll have a Q&A that might have a personal story. Yeah. Yeah. Are there the best? The Q&A's the best. And you don't, you never know what coming as well. That's the sort of thing. Never have a clue. They're the best ones. There they are. Yeah. You mentioned the discord. Yes. So we've got to a discord group and we have loads of different channels in that group for various different. One of them is toilet training, which is just parents trying to help each other out. Mate, if you could join that, I have absolutely no day. You'd get swarmed. You probably have to put your phone on silent. But there's loads of people in there as well. It just, it just put in a, there might be, might be an idea for you to join that and help a lot of the parents. I think there's 400 people in there. I mean, I just don't know what I need to do. That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll send you an invite. Yeah. Thank you very much. This was way more informative. I mean, I knew it was going to be informative. But like Andy just said, I didn't know what I didn't know. And I didn't know a lot. No. I feel like I'm going to do a lot of research. I'll be jumping on your website to have a look. But lots of free downloads as well. There's lots of free downloads if people want those as well. Brilliant. Yeah. So it's like things about how you've got health and toileting, sleep, understanding motions. So if you want to know where to start, if people just want to know that part, then that's there. That's amazing. Great. That's going to be a lot of resources. Yeah. And we'll share all that information as well when we start getting the information at this. Fantastic. Great. Thank you, mate. Much appreciated. Thank you so much for inviting me. No, not at all. It was well over. Really. All right. Cheers, guys. - Let's take care, bye bye bye. - Thanks very much, bye.