Speaker 1Hey, what's going on? Welcome back to the James Kennedy podcast. How you doing? I hope Mr. Alec Clifford is happy that his podcast has come out on time this week, and I'll be looking forward to a detailed feedback report by no later than 10am. Just a little private joke there amongst friends. Don't worry if you haven't got a fucking clue what I'm talking about. It's not essential to the rest of the episode. I hope you enjoyed last week's episode with the brilliant Professor Tim Spector, who's given you everything you need to know about food and nutrition. And as always, if you're enjoying the podcast, please do give us a subscribe, give us a thumbs up, give us a star rating. It all really helps the show. Got a great one for you guys this week. If you've owned a pair of ears at any point during the last 30 years, or ever been to a festival or looked at a music magazine, or turned the radio on at any point, you will have heard of the Mighty Levellers. Bringing the good times and blending genres through kick-ass songs and socio-political lyrics since 1988. The Levellers have been doing their thing and doing it their way for over 30 years, never once succumbing to the temptations of the major label machinery. Having been outspoken, principled, and hard-grafting consistently in their long and awesome career, this band has seen and done it all. So I'm super excited to be able to talk with the lead singer and songwriter in the band, Mr. Mark Chadwick. Mark, thanks so much for doing this, man. How are you doing? I'm very well, thanks. How are you? I'm good, thanks, man. I think you might actually be the first guest to actually ask me how I'm doing. So I appreciate that, man. And I know that that bodes well for the rest of the chat. Yeah. So I thought we would start, before we jump into the music, and the band, and everything, let's clear the air, let's get some shit off our chest, and let's do a little bit of politics first, if you're okay with that.
Speaker 2Okay, always. I
Speaker 1fear I may have kicked a wasp's nest now. What is your take, then, as we start a new year, 2023, as you look around you and survey the terrain and the heartbreaking shitshow that we see around us, what is your take on how we got here and what the fuck is going on?
Speaker 2How did we get here? I don't think it's a long story, but the actual day we are, it is beyond desperate. There is no denying that. And it is a global situation. Our country is leading the way in how crap the world can actually possibly be and how quickly things can change from a reasonable sort of level of crap government to, oh my God, this is just beyond unusual. This is a hypocrisy. This is just appalling. And yeah, and it's obvious how it's happened and why it's happened, but it's like, oh. How quickly it can happen. Oh, yes. And how people don't feel they can do anything about it. That's the weirdest bit. Everyone's looking at their internet news or whatever they get in their Facebook news, the news, whatever their paper is. And they're just feeling completely unable to do anything about it. They're watching this thing as if it's not really happening to them. It's all happening. And it's across the board. It's not one bit. There's not one bit of it that's working. It's everything that's broken. Literally everything. You do a system to the service. It's like, okay, and everything in between. It's like, okay, that's pretty serious. That's the serious neglect. And, you know, it is shocking. And everyone's just going to look and go, wow, this is crazy. It is crazy. And in levels, it's bad. You know, we've been putting this shit out for a long time. A really long time. You know, we're not, you know, I don't know if people know your levels are political bad. We're not. We're observational bad. We observe the world we live in. We don't tell people how to live their lives. You know, look, this is what, this is going down. And this is, this is a good thing. This may not be such a great thing. And that's what we do. And that's what we've been always done. And if the world had listened to us, we wouldn't be in this shit now. Fact. 100%.
Speaker 1I totally agree. I think everybody listening would agree with that, Mark. I mean, you've been in the business, what, how long has the band been together? 35 years now? 35, 36, something like that. Yeah. 35, yeah. Yeah, right. So, I mean, you've been in the business for a long time. You've been in the business for a long time. You've been doing social commentary and political commentary now for a long time. As you look at the state of the world or the country today, how do you feel it fares up, you know, when you compare it to like, you know, the late 70s, early 80s, you know, the Thatcher?
Speaker 2It's never been this bad. Right. So that's a simple fact. And people of generation older than mine would say the same. They're like, oh my God, this is literally shocking. This is worse than the winter of discontent in 79. This is worse than Thatcher's attack of the nationalized industries. This is worse. This is worse than anything. You know, this is worse than the Criminal Justice Act of the 90s. This is worse than any erosion. This is like, this is, this is corrosion.
Speaker 1Well put, man. Yeah, well said. And what is your, what have you seen in the social change as well? What have you seen in terms of how people are responding to this stuff compared to what you saw, you know, in the 80s with everything that was going on? Well, I'm amazed.
Speaker 2I mean, back in the day, back in the day, people were more political than the 80s. They were. Even pop music was political in the 80s, believe it or not. A lot of music was political. So when the 11s came out in the late 80s, it's quite natural to be quite political with your music. It wasn't a big deal. You know, it became not so much in the 90s. We were pretty much the, everyone else was having a party. So were we. But it was like, it was like party time. And that kind of, that kind of led us into a false sense of security, I think, for a lot of people. And consequently, younger generation never really picked up on that vibe of like actually taking to the streets like the poll tax riots, which was in the end of the 80s, where people actually, you know, fuck this. This is dreadful. We need to do something, you know, riots against student loans, all those sort of things. Big, big deal. People would go to take to the streets, young people would take to the streets and smash shit up. They just don't. They just look at it and just tick a like. Yeah, 100%. You know, tick a like. Yeah, I hate that too, boy.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah. And it is always hate as well. I hate that. That's it. That's the only thing.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like hating that.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2yeah, yeah. But, oh, somehow I've swayed. I've done some. You know, people get that little bit of morphine goes into your brain. Yeah, I've done some.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2And you haven't. I'm amazed that people aren't in the streets. I think I do think there's a lot to do with it.
Speaker 1Do you sense that changing though? Because I feel like the government can sense something coming, which is why they're making all these moves now to make protests illegal. It's almost like they're preempting a wave of resistance. What do you think?
Speaker 2Well, they're aware of the situation they've created for themselves and they know and they're putting up their defences because they know. It's coming down. It will. It will. Eventually. You know, people will take so much. I don't know how much they can take, to be honest. It strikes me that they can take a fucking
Speaker 1awful lot. They certainly can.
Speaker 2But they really can. And it's like, wow, how is this possible?
Speaker 1Well, it's almost like we've reached the definition of madness and insanity, isn't it? If you were reluctant at this with a completely impartial set of eyes and assessed it on those terms, you would be only able to conclude that this is institutionalised insanity.
Speaker 2It really is. It's beyond insane. Even like, you know, you think, oh, God, there must be somebody up there pulling the strings and gets all this right. Yeah. Obviously not. You know, it puts an end to all conspiracy theories. It's like there's a conspiracy with craptocracy. They've done it. They've won. Well done. They've fucked the case of the entire country. Brilliant.
Speaker 1Yeah. Well done. They really have, man.
Speaker 2At which point is that good for them? It's good for anybody. You know, they lie in their pockets, obviously. But, you know, essentially, that's really it. That's all it's ever been. That's what they've done. And they've done.
Speaker 1They've won. Well, something that I've talked about quite a few times in the podcast with different guests, it's something I'm trying to figure out that always really just confuses me. I can't get my head around it. It's when you look at the elite, you know, the 1% who are destroying this planet and everything on it. These are all highly educated, well-connected people who know what's going on just as well as anybody else does. They know that the role that they play in it, yet they continue to do the things that they do, which directly contribute to the end of life for the planet as we know it and everything on it. Including their grandkids. So I just can't understand the mentality of that. All I can decide is that they must be psychopaths.
Speaker 2Well, yeah, that's the answer. And they breed psychopaths. And it's an environment. It's the heady world they live in. It's a very heady world, I'm sure, you know. And it's like, yeah, we're just great. Aren't we the best at being fucking cunts? You know what I mean? So you've got to swear on this. It's too late now, Mark. I'm fucking right. All right, okay. But yeah, yeah, and they are. And they don't start going around and they raise their children to be cunts. I always used to think back in the day that their children would be tagging them on the daddy's sleeve going, Dad, Dad, aren't you worried about the environment? But I think they bred that out of them. Right. You know, and the kids go, well, fuck this shit. People used to rebel against everyone. These days they go, yeah, fuck, I'm having some of that. Yeah, I want all the money too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, fuck it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's broke what we got here. Let's fucking get rich.
Speaker 1Right. So you think that they know what's going on. But instead of doing something about it, they're just thinking, fuck it. There's no chance of saving us. So let's just grab everything for ourselves. Fuck everybody else. And this is half one big last greedy, decadent hurrah before it's game over.
Speaker 2That would appear to be what seems to be going down. And I mean, I knew this was going to happen eventually. I thought it was going to be a much slower process. I didn't know how fucking quick it was going to be.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, me neither. I mean, do you derive some hope, though, from the fact that this issue more than any other seems to be really mobilizing people to get up and out in big numbers than ever before? Because, you know, you're seeing the rise now of groups like Extinction Rebellion and Just Stop Oil.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, no, no. There's always a positive side. There is a positive side. There are people angry at it. There's people doing stuff. But it's not enough. Right. That's my point. It's not enough. It's not that literal like, you know, like they do in other countries. You know, people are always saying that. England doesn't really have a massive history of taking to the streets. It doesn't. No. You know, and when it does take to the streets, it's generally beaten to fuck. Whereas in places like France, they take to the streets. the streets it's quite a regular thing in germany they take the streets on a regular basis since everyone gets out of practice. I've seen them practice anarchists versus police every May the 1st. They go, OK, I'll have a jolly good riot. And everyone works out the moves. It's pretty weird. But, like, we don't do that. We don't have a history of that, of street action. But it has happened, and it can happen. I hope it does happen. I mean, I genuinely think that is the only thing that's going to make a difference. It's literally people tearing shit down. They actually do.
Speaker 1I totally agree with you, man. I mean, do you have any faith at all in the electoral system?
Speaker 2No. No. Unfortunately, no. I mean, it had an opportunity. It had a way. Because the system itself, yeah, all right, whatever. There's proportional representation, maybe. Right, yeah. But it just goes, plus, plus, plus, doesn't work. And also, with the media so heavily weighed towards whatever they want, then it kind of affects so many people that don't actually think about things and get told what to vote. They do it. Yeah, yeah. Right? They go, oh, right, yeah. And, you know, they're not going to vote Tory next time. A lot of people, because they were told not to do it. That's, you know, the argument is changing. You're going to vote for Keir Starmer now. That's kind of, that's happening. So that is what will happen. And it's not going to be a particularly massive radical change, unfortunately. It's not going to be, you know, I don't know if you've heard about Jeremy Corbyn and all that, but essentially he was right about a lot of things. And it's like, okay, I wouldn't describe myself as a Corbynist. I wouldn't even describe myself as a socialist, particularly. I would say, yeah, I have no faith in the system.
Speaker 1I don't. I agree with you, man.
Speaker 2We get fucked every time. Every time we vote for the US, I'm comfy. With self-interest at heart.
Speaker 1No matter who you vote for, the cunt wins. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. We did a whole episode on proportion representation. We had make votes matter on explaining how it all works and everything like that. I just realised that like, yeah, like the only choice we've got at this point is to vote for Labour if we want to get the Tories out. Because I'm a member of the Green Party and I've been for a long time. We've got to be realistic. If we want to get the Tories out, it's got to be Labour because we don't have any other realistic option.
Speaker 2Well, if you're sensible, yeah. I mean, I prioritise it and I would like, I'll prioritise it. This is a situation we are in now. Yeah. I would prioritise it. I would vote fucking Labour. Whoever's going to get a Tory out in my constituency, that's what I would do. Yeah. I'm pragmatic about that. I don't care. I don't have a particular religion. I've never voted Tory and I never will. But I would vote for anybody else just to get rid of a Tory because they ask how they live.
Speaker 1Oh, they really are, man. And like, they've done us all over good and proper this time. And like, if we all haven't learned a big fucking lesson from the last 12 years, then shame on us and we deserve everything we get. Like, if we elect these guys again the next time after everything they've done to us this past decade, then fuck us. You know, I don't care. I'll be past caring at that point and I'll just be working on my escape plan. But the problem is is that ultimately it won't make that much difference because the Labour Party are essentially Tory-lites. There's not that much fucking difference between them anymore. So I completely agree with you that we've got to do everything we can to get rid of them because they are cunts. But ultimately, you know, the only way to affect like actual change is to get out there and start tearing shit up.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. But a serious visionary or a serious visionary which we, you know, someone who's actually prepared to go, do you know what? This is daft. This is a really bad system. It's a corrupt system that needs to be changed. We need proportional representation. We can't just keep. It doesn't matter what you do. The Tories will always essentially win because it's the way the country is built. It's a really old political system. We're geared towards getting them in power. Always has been. That's the way it works. You know, it's just different versions of the Tory party. Tony Blair was a different version of the Tory party. That was all he ever was. Yeah. It was very Tory-like and that's what we're going to get again. Okay? So it's like. I don't care what you call it. It doesn't matter. But that's the system that we're up against. With proportional representation, you get actually what people feel. Yeah. And what they actually want. And that, you know, it lowers them. It brings them down to where they should belong. Which is an equal partnership with other thought processes. Instead of like, let's just get rich and protect fucking ourselves. It's like, no, you're going to get rich but you have to deal with the Green Party now. We're going to tell you you can't fucking do that. Like they do in Germany or like they do, you know, in some parts of the world. It's a better system.
Speaker 1Yeah, 100%. And I'm surprised that you don't describe yourself as a socialist then because if I was looking at the political spectrum of where to place you. Yeah, yeah. Well, I've definitely left the centre.
Speaker 2No shit. All the way around. All the way around. Yeah, all the way around. You know, I'm more of an anarchist,
Speaker 1really. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So what role do you think that art can play then in advancing positive change?
Speaker 2Well, obviously a big one because that's why they're so scared of it. Yeah. That's why they're in the process of dismantling it as much as they possibly can. Right. Very quickly and again, subtly, not subtle at all. Literally, like, right, we're not getting rid of that. Oh, right, during the pandemic, all become ballerinas. All ballerinas become shit. That's, ignoring the fact that the arts make them so much money, et cetera, et cetera, but they know that every artist given a fucking opportunity to speak will speak against them and they don't like that. So consequently, the arts are important because that's what we do.
Speaker 1Love it. Yeah, and art is a great communicator as well, isn't it? You know, art can get straight to the point where it's easy to bamboozle people with statistics and narratives and spin, whereas art can just punch you straight in the gut or hit you straight in the heart, can't it? you can cut through
Speaker 2a lot of the bullshit and can get straight to the emotion, get straight to actually, you know, the boiling pot, you know, the heart.
Speaker 1Yeah, 100%. I feel like the levelers are a case in point because, you know, I don't think your guys' longevity and stay in power is just down to the awesome songs and the relentless work ethic, but I think the fact that you guys have always been so honest and outspoken and consistent with that, that it's given you guys a sort of trust with your audience and, and an extra element that they relate to and connect with you guys on that's more real, I think, than, you know, hey, here's a band with a cool song.
Speaker 2It's definitely a component in our longevity, yeah, and the fact that we never got away is because of that because we have never been, you know, asked, we are what we think. Right. You know, that's, we are that. Right. You know, and, you know, it's been lots of, it's complicated. It's not easy doing it, but generally speaking, we have a thing about most things that we do. You know, sometimes we fuck up, but not very often. And we go, like Jesus, if we're going to do this, we have to think about that. Right. You know, really weigh out and go, okay, this can be perceived as bad and we don't do it. You know, even if it's like, that's a good career move, we only have to eat. Do you know what I mean? When we do that, that's bad. Right. You know, we're aware of like, when sucking Satan's cock is a break, when it's available, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, I don't want to go near that.
Speaker 1That's bad. Avoid the cock.
Speaker 2Okay. And sometimes we've done stuff and we haven't been aware. Oh, fuck. No.
Speaker 1Yeah. So you just stay true to your values and that's worked for you.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. And I'm pious. We go in about our business, really. Right. I just don't make it as much fun as we possibly can, but also just like keeping it, keeping it real. Keeping it real. And for us, it's basic common sense. Everything is common sense. Right. Everything we do, from our festival to our own studio, our own everything, you know, our own record label, our own party, but everything is common sense and it's like, it's that that does the least harm.
Speaker 1Well, I want to ask you about your, your label and your model for releasing records and stuff in it, but I wanted to just, just sort of like bridge the gap between the politics and the music stuff. This doesn't apply to you because your situation is very different, but what do you say to those people who see a conflict in bands espousing, you know, socialistic principles whilst also being part of the capitalistic evil machinery of the record business? Do you see a conflict there or is it just, what other choices do we have?
Speaker 2No, no, it's just the limit, you know, it's what works, that's it. You can't just go around, yeah, yeah, we've got our own records, don't we? So, yeah, you're involved, you're just involved, that's the world you live in. Obviously, like, you know, we do what we do, but we don't, like I said, we don't get into bed with the wrong people. Right. You know, we've been, the wrong people try and get in bed with us.
Speaker 1Oh, I bet.
Speaker 2And like, on both parts, I literally got away from that, you know, like corporate, because we're always on independent labels, but then our independent label got bought by a major label. Right. And we made sure we got dropped straight away. Right. Because we weren't prepared to be ruled by Bugs Bunny, you know, it wasn't really what we wanted.
Speaker 1Love it. So, what is your model now then? Because you're completely independent now with your own record label on the fiddle recordings. Yeah, yeah. What's your situation? Are you doing everything in-house or are you licensing and outsourcing?
Speaker 2No, we do, we do a bit of licensing abroad, but yeah, everything's in-house really. Now, the record company business has changed so much. There's a lot of individual talent you just hire as you need. Right. Instead of like going to, you know, someone who's probably worked for years at various different record labels and now working from home doing the same stuff. Yeah. But cutting out the middleman. Yeah. You know? So, that's the way we do it now and that's the way everyone's doing it really, a lot. I mean, it still makes a record label, don't get me wrong, but they're doing better than ever. Yeah. Extraordinarily. Yeah. Which is, you know, I don't know if I was earning any money but those guys, they're making loads of money. Oh, how are they doing that? Yeah, yeah, they've been fucking dodging deals on fucking Spotify. That's how they're doing it. Yeah. And, you know, everyone else gets left out in the cold and that's just the way it is. but, you know, but it's been a growing thing. We started doing this around 2000, 2005 we started to separate ourselves from as much of the business as possible. Right. And we're lucky enough to have a fan base, stuck with us throughout that time because they said we were never a fashion bands of any kind you know weren't that part of a brit pop or fucking yeah baggy or whatever you know those cunts that's all we ever were and that's fine yeah i hate those guys yeah brilliant whatever you see
Speaker 1that so often though don't you like bands who are just doing their thing and staying true to who they are and not giving a fuck about how it fits in with the broader ecosystem you see that happens so often that they're the bands that are still fucking kicking it 30 years
Speaker 2later no no exactly always you know i mean yeah and it is those bands it is those bands it's those bands you know yeah they just keep going and don't stop because they do their own fucking shit and they do their own way and they create their own power you know and it's brilliant you know beastly boys genius yes same deal yeah you know that they do what we do on a bigger scale
Speaker 1but they do what we do so how are you finding the independent lifestyle then compared to the years when you were you know with a with a label doing things i mean i'm guessing like the band has got so many other hats that it's got to juggle now as well as you know doing what you've always
Speaker 2done well you don't don't have as much money to throw around as they did back then but they don't anyway right right especially for rock and roll they don't really throw money at rock and roll i think the arctic monkeys is the last big band come out when they there's everything else really that's lasted there isn't is there so let's face it well they're gone well you know i mean but yeah and it depends i mean and that depends on the faith of the record company keep backing them up backing them up until unless they do something independent for themselves but i just i couldn't live like that i couldn't live at the whim of another person live like that for like we lived like that for about 12 years and it was like you know it's long enough at the whim when i was in i was on a tour bus with the band who was there i won't name the band but like when they suddenly got dropped by their label they're in the middle of a sellout store wow just just released a record all good some accountant in japan took a look down and went the tour manager comes on comes onto the tour bus says guys you've just been dropped by a label fuck yeah and they were fucking partying at that moment it was like oh it's fucking over and they're a famous band which like done and that i was like okay that ain't gonna happen to me yeah
Speaker 1no fuck that man jesus christ i mean it's well you've done it both ways now yeah success in both but what just for you know to play devil's advocate what are the benefits that you experienced of being with a label are there any
Speaker 2yeah there are there really are i mean to be honest you know like you know i thought some record company guys uh who did a managed street preachers record gold and said it would be easier to to staple a 50 pound note to every record we sold that's how much we spent to do it all right right and that's that's how it works that's how it works they throw money at the situation until it sticks they did it with us you know put through money at it and and it works you know that's you know advertising everywhere right getting getting a record on the radio getting all that store stuff that's that's where that comes from that's for the you know the million bucks and it takes a million bucks to break a band and it just does yeah right that's a fact yeah and then so if you haven't got that it's so hard for newer acts i don't know how they do you know they do it via the internet still it's going to win a fairly niche unless you get one of those unique sort of viral situations or suddenly they're the right band or the right artist for the time yeah yeah then they might get lucky and you know and there's a lot of people that do quite well doing this via without the labels as such but it's hard work yeah
Speaker 1well for someone like me who's been releasing albums and like i don't know any other way to do it i've only ever done it independently i make all my music and i make all my music and i make all my music and i make all my records myself finance myself release them myself promote them myself distribute them myself i you know i don't i've never had a deal as such so i don't know what that experience is like so i've had to learn the long way and the hard way and made a lot of mistakes and still am but the independent model just seems to make sense to me you know because even even people i know who are on major labels they've got nothing good to say about it they've got no money and certainly you know through the lockdown and stuff when everyone else was skint and considering getting day jobs and getting jobs i was doing okay not because i'm making loads of money but just because i'm independent so anything that comes in was coming into me because you know i'm the label as well as the artist and the writer and the performer and everything so it kind of makes sense to me and i think it is cool that we now have that option to go independent because you know before before you know if you couldn't get a deal you were fucked you know it was game over so i think it is very empowering that people have got the ability to keep on trucking now with or without a label you can just do it yourself you know it's goes back to the whole diy punk ethos you know well
Speaker 2that's it well that that that is what happened it became diy and we were lucky to catch that wave and did it right at the right time right for us for us you know it's like okay this this makes sense to us right you know and so you know the digital revolution aided our career to a degree because it enabled us to continue without if we were to drop all the labels without the digital world we probably would have really because you know you'd have to get to print media and all that and that costs money yeah yeah you know and that that wouldn't but you know this is all free yeah so largely you know i mean so that really helps you know running websites and apps and you know doing things directly you know facebook blah blah yeah well that's
Speaker 1the problem i mean it is a shame that like i said earlier about the having to be dependent on the big bad label machinery well now despite everything we've just said we we are dependent completely on the big bad tech industry which i'm not sure which is worse yeah
Speaker 2well yeah it's really free i mean i think that's a stupid word of mouth i think that still has it there is there is a strange you know the fucking 12 monkey effect where somebody says suddenly they know about this band or this artist you don't know why right right right yeah you know how that happens and that's what happens to the level is it was the strangest thing it was like there we were plodding away next thing you know everybody knew the fuck we were and that's just weird yeah yeah 12 monkey point
Speaker 1yeah well i mean essentially yeah speaking of word of mouth i mean in that sense everything has changed but nothing has changed really
Speaker 2well indeed it's the medium of it it's changed it's probably more like the 50s now okay i'd say then then you know the 60s and 70s and 80s where it was like big bucks and where you know where where music was actually you know you identified with your music you you were your music yeah yeah that's that's what you were that was your gang thing you know you're doing a massive smith fan and that was you yeah you know you were a goth that was you or you're a psycho billy and that was you you know yeah you know you're a metal or fucking two-toed you know and that was that that was the world i grew up in i thought i thought that would never go but now that's not the case it's gone yeah it's gone this last thing you know that's quite quite cultured and the young people really fucking understand it to be honest and like yeah really so yeah that's the way it was and you beat everybody else up
Speaker 1yeah that's very true that that man that sense of identity that absolute sense of identity that you define yourself with a fucking band you know i mean like i miss those days but you know it was a simpler world there was less content to consume and make sense of i mean these days you're not going to get that because there's just too much fucking stuff man to make sense of you can't get really really into anything anymore you're just a little bit into lots of stuff you know what i mean which is one of the many downsides i think to the new model um but i think it's a little bit despite all of the the great things we've just said about it but if you were going to put your cards down haven't seen both sides would you say that it's better now worse in many ways or is it just different it's just different right yeah it's just different different set of problems different
Speaker 2set of problems different set of opportunities
Speaker 1love it and where do you stand on the streaming medium you know spotify and the ilk i
Speaker 2can see it and say you know right that's it it's just a fact there's nothing there the thing is you know like people buy want to buy stuff but still buy it i buy it they won't even open it i'll still stream right right yeah yeah i'll stream while they're listening to it or they don't buy it so you know i mean so when there's a lot of revenue being lost it's just shit for musicians it's fucking dreadful compared to what it was yeah yeah it's definitely it's bad it's bad it's bad you know unless they're earning money from live or from merchandise they earn it no you're right i
Speaker 1mean and the touring is hard as well i mean people glamorize that as being you know such a great revenue stream but you know if you don't have financial backing you can't do it i mean if you're a small band at the transit van level you know just doing a little stint around the uk it's fucking expensive you know you're in a hole before you leave
Speaker 2yeah 100 and literally that you know you're
Speaker 1talking literally 50 bucks or whatever just to help you get to the next gig there's nothing nothing to be said about food you know a bed to sleep on or anything like that it's fucking brutal man i mean and that's why i haven't gigged in so long i mean you know pandemic aside and some other things but you know i haven't toured or done shows now in fucking years about four years because i'm looking at the terrain and i'm just thinking fuck that you know why would i bother you know i mean it's just it's too fucked right now i'm just gonna sit and sit and sit the pit stop and wait it out you know
Speaker 2yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no i get that i totally get it and i really admire any band that out there was knocking it on the you know knocking on the doors doing the work because i know them they ain't doing it for fucking the luxury they're doing it for their life
Speaker 1there ain't no luxury that's for sure
Speaker 2really well but not really relatively speaking i'd say it's all right but yeah it's not sleeping
Speaker 1in the transit van
Speaker 2anymore though no i'm sleeping in
Speaker 1transit van so often right okay well i think you know guys that came up the way you guys did you know like you've been working hard now for several decades i suppose you're you've got that work ethic you know i mean which which sadly is lacking in a lot of bands certainly certainly some of the ones that i know because you have got you've got to do that because with the industry being what it is and what it's always been until you can push through to that that part of the threshold where you do start earning a bit of money until then you've got to do it at a loss essentially so if that means sleeping in the van that's what you've got to do
Speaker 2you know absolutely just what people do when the friends of mine that's what they're doing right now right you know we're on the road sleeping in a van yeah my
Speaker 1friend's exactly the same man i mean i i honestly can't see any other way that it's possible to keep doing your thing at the moment without doing that you know what i mean and i think it's it's it's good to have these conversations i think these honest conversations about this stuff because i think too people who are fans of bands have this kind of assumption that you know it's all you know partying and rock and roll and champagne and cocaine and groupies and private planes you know so
Speaker 2would you say then that
Speaker 1the independent model is working out better for you i mean obviously you've got to incur now all the extra costs that the label was you know previously
Speaker 2paying well that's beyond that's beyond that's not really the cost of the cost gap because of the same cost that everyone's having to bear you know in energy and all that diesel etc going brexit geniusly not helping anything at all in fact really bad yeah obviously and uh yeah i mean so things like that are yes yeah they're bad in that respect you know costs are are high wages are high um and you can't really take the piss ticket wise too much because people have only x amount of money because you know to go to a gig you know for people it's babysitters it's traveling it's accommodation it's a fucking big work it's a big watch of cash you know to go to a gig these days it's not straightforward so you have to be really careful but yeah what the levels are good at is playing everywhere right so people don't generally have to travel that far to see us if they've got patience we'll be in their town at some point that's awesome within a two-year period
Speaker 1yeah man you guys get around jesus christ i mean you're playing acoustic shows all through march as well is that right yeah end of september through march yeah awesome man we'll give that a plug at the end as well um i wanted to ask you how do you balance i mean i'm assuming your life has probably uh grown and evolved to fit around the massive part of your life that the band takes up but now at this stage in your life how do you balance um having a personal life with the relentlessness of what you do in the band it's
Speaker 2not as relentless as all that these days to be honest um but yes i mean it's a lot it's a lot of downtime it's a lot of home time so that is quite hard and it's over the years yeah it's been it's it's a challenge it is a challenge but i think it's a challenge it's a challenge i don't deny it it's a real challenge because it's it's a very different world to rocking out on the stage and then going and put the bins out yeah it's just it's and it's like you know you have to be a bit of a words of gummish right i'm not great at words of gummish ten times over one head on which is to my detriment
Speaker 1right well you mentioned brexit back then we've done a few episodes on here about you know oh yeah um we had kevin brennan the mp on talking about it and a couple of other guys from a campaign that i'm involved with called carry on talking specifically about how brexit is affecting crews and bands and the entertainment business how has it affected you guys it's pretty bad you
Speaker 2know it's it's expensive it's made you know almost unviable wow not quite but going in you know it's like okay we've got like a small profit now it's like we're just doing it to meet just play to the fans and not lose money that's shit yeah you know that's a bit weird a bit fucking weird but we're doing it we're getting paid essentially right so yeah because of course and you know and you can be there and suddenly uh someone's got to leave the tour because they've been on tour in europe with another band and they've got a 90-day cycle so they've got to go yeah so where are we going so i've got to go that's all right i've arranged someone else to come in my place but i've got to go things like that you know so unforeseen things and that applies to
Speaker 1you guys as well the 90-day
Speaker 2rule yeah it was certainly never played 90 days in europe
Speaker 1yeah but it's terminal for crew members like say because they hop from one tour to the next now they know exactly you know yeah
Speaker 2it's really bad news for them it's like you run out in 90 days and that's within a year that's it you don't go back yeah but fuck that's what have they done to deserve that nothing you know in an industry that was making the country most money out of any other industry yep you know apart from the actual city itself wow that's great that's brilliant let's shoot ourselves in the front fucking foot there let's do that shall we yeah and all the companies all the british companies used to work in europe now they don't go there anymore you know pas buses lights uh production companies all the best skills all the best people in this country yeah can't go anymore so they have to hire everything over there which is a bit shit because their gear's not as good it's going to be good now because they bought
Speaker 1all ours right right yeah yeah well i've heard that because of um the lockdown and everything there was like this surge of touring activity as soon as the gates were open again which has just meant that the cost of getting a bus and crew and stuff like
Speaker 2that doubled or trebled oh it really did yeah i mean this is hopefully we can calm down a bit now but it was really you know it was like fuck this is all virtually unfeasible right lucky you know lucky so i and a lot of bands didn't you know can't do this yeah so
Speaker 1many people like i like myself who were just sitting in the pit stop now trying to figure out you know is this going to change or how can i make this doable you know
Speaker 2what i mean i know i mean you know it doesn't matter it's done but it's bad and it needs to be reversed immediately
Speaker 1100 percent man yeah i'm why is the levelers approach to all of this then i mean are you guys just going to continue doing what you've always done and what has always worked for you which is just to keep on trucking doing your thing and you know knocking and drawn into and you know the surrounding bullshit
Speaker 2well we have to remain consistent you know that's what people rely on you know they rely on the voice what we say and how we are as a beacon hopefully for people who go yeah okay well right yeah yeah they're all right they're doing their thing you know always producing new material new stuff always trying to keep it fresh we're always trying to you know be inspired and be inspiring beautiful
Speaker 1and what would you say then to those bands who are out there who aren't you know what the level is leveled yet who are currently hammering the toilet circuit in a transit van trying to navigate this fucked up terrain you know of making no money you know sleeping in the driver's seat eating pot noodles you know dealing with the fact that you know everyone is broke and venues are closing down screaming and and all all the shit that you know a young musician is faced with now when they start on the circuit you know what advice after all of your experience could you give to those bands
Speaker 2i don't know i honestly don't know i really don't know i think you know i think tenacity plays out in the end a lot of the time you know if you're good it will work i don't know it's fucking hard though i wouldn't i don't envy them so i really don't know it's fucking tough i think the music business has never been tough at the start if you're playing you know if you're not playing directly commercial music you know where you might be you know have some money thrown at you you know or you know on a talent show whatever that sort of thing that that world that separate universe now that's that music business is completely separate from what i would call real music you know which is a bit divisive but it's the truth you know there's real music it could be all kinds of real music whether you're a fucking drill artist or a fucking folk artist it doesn't matter you're playing real music you know you're doing something real from your you know from your heart and you're driven to do it it's a must for you you can't stop doing it because it's what you are that side of thing that that's the bit that's that's most under pressure but people can do it people are doing it you know every day people are cracking it
Speaker 1or get a fucking job i think anybody listening to these conversations i ask every time we have a musical guest and i always ask them you know like i'm fascinated and everyone's like fuck it no it's just not good i think anyone that listens to my podcast regular for the music episodes it's like jesus man that sounds fucking rough i don't think i'll bother you know
Speaker 2well it's not what it was you know it isn't it just simply isn't you know there was it felt impossible when we started out to be honest you know there's a lot of bands a lot a lot of bands chasing record deals at the time you know and it's like we just didn't click anything you know we weren't like uh we weren't like the stone roses so we didn't fit that vibe you know we weren't like any other things that were going at the time yeah you know with a violin in the band it's like okay where's that shit are you what are you folk not really you'd be quite punky yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we don't fit on our label it's like oh shit so you know we had to find quite quite uh broad labels broad independent labels was first one was french oh right
Speaker 1of course yeah
Speaker 2yeah yeah and so and they were like yeah great we've got a rock and roll band we've got a british rock band they didn't really know what kind of music we were but they liked it and that so that was great you know and then that and then we moved to another one it had similar approach but it was in the uk it was like yeah we've got broad you know we don't have a genre as such yeah yeah so you fit right in here you know we'll support you because we like your songs and your attitude and and also but at that point we had built our own world up anyway you know without the first record they didn't do very much still to help us but they did wow far from it our first album, which is great, but the support we built, we built it all ourselves without they were throwing any money because they didn't have any at us. So we became a viable concept for the slightly larger independent record label in the UK. And that lasted for a good 10 years, and that was good. We had a good relationship with them because, you know, you tell them to fuck off and they take it.
Speaker 1And I suppose that sort of put you in good stead then for when you went independent, you had that kind of bedrock of support there and stuff that you'd built.
Speaker 2Exactly. We started out, we were making our own cassettes, printing our own T-shirts. So we were on our own tour bus and we did everything ourselves from the very beginning anyway. So it's kind of like a brief interlude with the record companies, really. Right, okay. You know, it was only 10 years, 12 years out of our 35 years that we were ever with a record company.
Speaker 1Yeah, I hadn't considered that, actually. Like, if you look at your career as a whole, you know, the time that you were actually with a label as a band is relatively small, you know, compared to. To being independent. And that's why I was sort of, like, fascinated to talk to you because you've seen such a broad change now, not just within the music industry, but within society as well. And you're still fucking here, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. But like I said, it's because we've made the right decisions at the right time, you know. It's like, okay, this is not cool. It's not being. You know, let's do a festival. You know, when festivals. There's billions of festivals now, but, you know, 2001, when we started out to do our own festival, there weren't. You know, there was a big one. There was. And a few quite niche ones we might have heard about. And, you know, quite a lot of free festivals and sort of like dance festivals. But there was no one doing sort of like a paid-for, but vibe-wise non-commercial festival. Yeah, yeah. Which was like with a massive collection of artists and talent of different kinds, you know, comedy, theatre, all kinds of. All the music. Yeah. Dance. Dance, reggae, folk, punk, blahdy, blahdy, blah, indie, whatever. You know, we put it all on. And the only provider that I've ever played was Good Life. That's the principle. And no sponsorship. None at all. Wow. No money from anybody.
Speaker 1Wow. None. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2Never happened. It's our 20th year this year. And it always sounds like that. And we don't have to compromise. Jesus. So how do you finance that then? Tickets. Advanced sales. Advanced sales. Tickets. Wow. Yeah. And we go advertising, you know. That's why people go, oh, beautiful days. They go, oh, can't have heard of it. Word of mouth. You won't see a post for it. Because we don't need to advertise it. Right. Well, not yet, anyways. But that day has yet to arise. It was gross, wasn't it? But there you go. That's kind of the vibe of it. And that's how we've done it. It's actually. It's all generated from when people actually attempt to.
Speaker 1Amazing. Amazing. And that's the way it should be. And it's very similar, I suppose, to what is very popular now, the crowdfunding model. You know, I've financed most of my albums through crowdfunding. You know, where people buy the album in advance, which helps you then have the money to make the fucking thing, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. That's the basic principle, yeah.
Speaker 1That's fucking awesome, man. Well, look, I promised I wouldn't keep you for too much longer. So before we wrap up, we've got to let everybody know what's happening with the Levelers, what's coming up, what can they look forward to, and what's going on.
Speaker 2Well, we're releasing another sort of like a partner record tour. We released one about four years, five years ago, called We The Collective. It's an acoustic reimagining of some of the songs, some new material, for basically just really fun, for shits and needles, really. And it's awesome. And it's a really intense musical approach. It's very focused. And it really brings the words out.
Speaker 1Right, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2And it works in theatres, sat-down theatres. So we're doing a sat-down theatre tour. So we've done another record to go along with that. So we've done the sister record to We The Collective, of course, together all the way. And it's just us with other musicians. And so. Some reimagining, some new material, and yeah, just vibes.
Speaker 1Good vibes. Wicked, man. And you've got, like we mentioned, the tour you've got coming through March. What's happening for the rest of the year, live-wise?
Speaker 2We've got festival dates. We've got some beautiful days out, where we do just like essentially what beautiful days is, but just in one day, in a place like Bristol and whatnot. So there are a few places like that. Some of them confirmed, some of them not. And our festival, and some other just festivals. Wicked. Here and there and everywhere, you know.
Speaker 1It's going to be a fun year, man.
Speaker 2I'm envious. Yeah, yeah, no, it's good. It's good. I can't complain.
Speaker 1I do think this train is ever going to stop, or is this thing just going to keep on going until the fucking wheels fall off?
Speaker 2Ah, that. The latter. Definitely. Yeah. What's the point of stopping? It's good. Yeah, well, exactly. What else are you going to do? When I'm not touring, I do stuff on my own as well. You know, I like going out, doing it. You know, it's good. It's my happy place.
Speaker 1Well, that's going to be music to a lot of people's ears as well, man. You know, because, you know, it's our happy place. It's our happy place as well. So, on behalf of everyone listening, thanks so much for doing this, man, and thanks for everything you've given us the past 35 years, long may you continue to shine. All right, no, thanks very much. Not sure. Thank you, man. It's been a real pleasure. Speak to you again soon. Take care. Okay, bye-bye. Put it together for Mr. Mark Chadwick. What a dude. I really enjoyed that chat. I hope you did as well. A lot of knowledge in there, and I think probably the second highest swearer on the podcast after Benji Webb. I'm not sure how many C-bombs were dropped compared to Benji's episode, but I think it's a tight runner. That was a fascinating chat, man. I think we covered everything that I was hoping to cover there, you know, to put politics and the band and art and the music industry, a hell of a lot of stuff. The guy knows his stuff, and he doesn't fucking mince his words either. I love that. He said the only thing, you know, that we can do to affect change is to start tearing some shit down. I love that. So, take it from Mr. Mark Chadwick, who knows what he's talking about. If you're pissed off with the Tories, and you're pissed off with the price of your energy, and you're pissed off with seeing your grandparents cold and having to choose between heating and eating, then don't wait. Don't wait for your MP to ask nicely and then do fuck all about it. Start tearing some shit down. Guys, enough is enough. Come on, man. How much more shit are we going to take? It's embarrassing. The world must be looking at us thinking, what the fuck is wrong with those guys? They're just sitting there taking it, you know what I mean? So, I completely echo the sentiments there. You know, I'm really fucking frustrated. As you know, you know, I believe we should make anger great again. Start putting that fucking fury to some good use and start getting out there and making a difference. So, I'm glad to see that the wise Mr. Chadwick agrees. As mentioned, the level of anger is going to increase. Levelers will be doing an acoustic tour starting Monday the 27th of Feb in Cheltenham Town Hall playing all through Feb and March and all over the place. They're stopping pretty much everywhere in the UK. So, you get to check out levelers.co.uk for all of the live shows. You can also check out the band. You can follow them on Twitter at the underscore levelers. They're on Facebook at the levelers and I'm guessing they're everywhere else as well. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they don't need me to plug it. They're the fucking levelers. You know who they are. You know where they are, okay? So, mostly. You can probably get your tickets anyway. But I gotta do my bit. That's how I get people like this on my show is that I promise to fucking. Not that the artists care. It's mostly the PRs. You know, they want to know that I'm doing my bit for the promo effort right here. So, I gotta do my thing. So, yeah. Levelers.co.uk. Go and buy those tickets and go and check out an awesome ass-kicking fucking band because they're coming to a town near you in March. Whilst we're talking promo, you knew it was coming, man. You thought you'd gotten away with it for one fucking episode where I don't monotonously fucking remind you to subscribe to my podcast. But please do. If you haven't subscribed already, I'm begging. I'm literally. Listen to the sound of my voice, man. This is a begging man right here. Subscribe to this fucking thing. Hit follow. Tell your friends about it. Like Mark just said, you know, there's no force stronger than word of mouth. So, tell your friends about all the goodness happening over here on the James Kennedy podcast. Hit the star rating. Leave us a review or a thumbs up or whatever the fuck you gotta do to keep this thing moving. And I will love you forever and keep the good stuff coming. I'll be back next week with another awesome, awesome guest. I can't wait for this one. I don't know what day it'll be. I'd like to keep Mr. Allard. Clifford on his toes. I know he waits eagerly for these podcasts every week, sitting there by the fucking computer or the phone at one minute past nine, feverishly punching away at his phone thinking, where the fuck is it? So, the next episode may or may not be out on Wednesday at nine. You know, it might be out on Saturday or Sunday, but it's a fucking good one. And if you subscribe to the damn thing, you'll get a nice little notification to let you know when it's up so you won't have to worry about it. As always, thanks to everyone who does listen. I hope you're still enjoying the podcast. Let me know if there's anybody that you'd like me to speak with. You know, get in touch on Twitter or wherever. You know where to find me. And, you know, send them my way. Have a great week. As always, take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and get out there and start tearing some fucking shit down.
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