#4 / Small Talk with Peter from Norm Architects

Hello, welcome to another session, another small talk. I keep fighting with the name. Ron is looking at me. I think we really need to close a name for this, if it's a podcast, a session or a. But it's another one. The fourth, if I'm not mistaken, and we are here seated in our office in slush. And as with all the other sessions, we have a guest that very organically became closer to slush and not only him individually, but the company that represents. And welcome Peter from Norm. Thank you very much. It's good to have you. I'd like to ask you to be here. So just to set the scene, because usually, John is first bullet on my script is to set the scene, whoever is listening to us, and especially if it's our team, they know Norm. What they might not know is our history with Norm, just to help set the scene. So, my first contact with Norm came through Joanna, my daughter, creative director at slush, that was living in Copenhagen. And every time that I was visiting her, she would force me to go to a place and she kept referring. This was designed by Norm. And she has this huge passion by your work and the work of your studio. And at some point, we got into this beautiful friendship with Keiji Ashizawa from Japan. And Keiji kept saying you need to meet the Norm people, you need to meet the Norm people. You guys are going to connect very, very well. And one day, Peter entered the studio, you came to visit, and then the rest is history. So then, it grew, we have been together both here in Copenhagen. How has it been this discovery of slush and. It's the discovery of slush, well, I can't really claim that we discovered you. You discovered us in a way, but as you mentioned, connected with us, and it's just an evolving friendship. I feel. There's a lot of, we like kindred spirits, we have a lot in common. We also very different to how we work. But I think sort of the approach we have to projects. The human side of things is very similar. And then on a personal level, I think we also connect on many things and really value good design, good clients and fun projects. So if I can take a few steps back, I think we are discovering you as a company, you personally, your entire team. But we also are discovering Abu Dhabi as a region or as a cultural place that we weren't really aware of before and I think getting to know you and slush has been an amazing help to get an insight immediately into the rich culture that we were completely oblivious to before our work down here started with a developer. We wouldn't say we've said no to working in the region, but we were apprehensive because it was a region that we didn't have any connection to. So where do you start? You just dive into it, you wait, what do you do? So a lot of people have approached us previously and because of our apprehensiveness to the area we sort of politely declined, then we got a developer who contacted us, we really wanted to work with Norm and the brand and what we could do, not just for some of these other reasons that we've experienced previously. So that was sort of how we landed here and that connection is pushed to the side and now we're really focusing on disc collaboration that we have. Yeah, we know Norm before knowing Norm, so before meeting you and something that I think Joanne has someone that really knows very well the Scandinavian design, but at the same time she's also as I am and the family and slush, very passionate about Abu Dhabi. She was always a very big ambassador of the connection between you and Abu Dhabi and the reason is because it comes as a surprise to a lot of people, but we believe that that identity that you have been putting in your projects is pretty much the identity of how Abu Dhabi does things, the elegance and the sophistication of design as something to support living and not the hero, but as the canvas where people have this space that becomes the container or the platform where people live. And just before we started recording, Joanne was introducing you to one of the subjects that is not the theme of this season, we'll get there to Abu Dhabi's session season. But it's something that in the last episode, it has been coming and I think I need to bring it up because I think it's one of the characteristics of your work, which is the concept of timelessness. And what is really interesting is that Sven from a couple of weeks back when we were here sitting, he brought an element to the discussion that it was a complete surprise for me, because we always use the word timelessness as a design without time. But we always associate it as contemporary. And he challenged that by saying no, timelessness, you know when it was done, but it lasted. So for example, we're using the example of modernist design. So when you see modernist design, you don't say it's 2024, you say it's from the mid-century, but it's timeless. So it lasted. If I would describe Norm's work, and I would use one word, I would use timeless, do you agree with that? Absolutely. I think we pride ourselves in creating this idea of timelessness, as you mentioned, it's not about a trend, it's just to create something that has a longevity that can be long-lasting. And I think that actually comes through, maybe I'm jumping a little bit ahead, but that comes through the craftsmanship, that comes through the detailing, that comes through textility understanding material. So it's not so much of creating something that's in fashion at the moment, but it's actually about quality. And if you can carry that, things will last. It will physically last, and that, as a baseline, gives it that timelessness. It's funny that you bring the subject we spoke before, starting about also talking about craftsmanship and the crafts. And I think these talks have been helping us think a lot about stuff that we are thinking that are on top of our minds. And it just did a connection that I think we didn't do before, which is that timelessness is connected with craftsmanship. So this idea that, for something to last, it needs to be well done. And it needs to be well crafted. And I think, when you say it, it makes a lot of sense, I don't know if we ever connected the truth in this such direct way, but it's true that when we think of a piece of furniture, when we think of a building, when we think of a watch, when we think of a car, and that lasted something that we say, oh, that lasted 60 years or 70 years, usually they are directly associated with craftsmanship. Now you, the reason I met you, was through Kajee. And your collaboration with Kajee, if I'm not mistaken, has a lot to do with furniture and objects. Yes, that was basically how it was started. We were invited to Japan to participate in a design of a furniture collection for a company called Adiyaki by a Singaporean designer called Gabriel San. and two of my partners at NOM went out to Japan, met Keiji in a typhoon season. They had to get the last train back to Tokyo and there this whole friendship with Keiji started through the discussion of furniture craftsmanship and that involved and it's now become much more than just furniture. So it's also a architecture into design, master planning with slas as well. So yeah, it's all about the understanding of good design and how we craft it and how we craft it for the uses, whether that's the people who's going to sit on a chair or the people who's going to use the space that we design. So it's the idea of crafting something tangible but also crafting something that's a little bit more elevated. So crafting spaces, crafting experiences. So I think this is the first time I'm going to say this on record. We have been, I think it's almost a manipulation of wishes but I have been finding more and more, everybody talks a lot about the connection between Scandinavian design and Japanese design and I think that natural way that you connected with Keiji and you maintain that connection with Japan and Japan with Scandinavian. A lot of people in the world make that connection. I've said this many times but not on record so I need to be careful with it. But I feel that the UAE in the future can be part of a triangle that connects and the reason I make that connection is not because I think that aesthetically both those aesthetics make sense here. But I think that at the core of the identity it also makes sense because the original identity of the UAE, the badwin roots, the simplicity of the way of leaving. The fact that you could only own what you could carry. The fact that design needed to be pragmatic because you couldn't have the superfluous, you needed to focus on the fundamentals. In a way, in my opinion and I know I'm kind of forcing the UAE into that triangle. But in a way, I think that's why so naturally Scandinavian design and Japanese design are so well accepted in here. I know that your connection with Japan exists for a while now but your connection with the UAE is more recent but you have been coming here often. Do you see any sense in that connection? Do you see a reason for that maybe being explored deeper? It's definitely something we want to explore a lot more. I think we've only scratched the very surface. But even that has showed us that there are similarities. I think the current project that we are working on, inspired about the whole Shabby House topology and already there, you get a connection to Japanese and to Danish, like a vernacular architecture, the way we work with plastering facades, the way we work with simple structures as you mentioned. I think a key word is the word you said pragmatic. We design in Japan and Denmark and it sounds like you also do it here. You design for the very basic needs of humans. If that's to be explored even more and that becomes real and it's true, then I can definitely see that. I think in our multiple layers of permanent research that we love to do while being part of this beautiful place called Abu Dhabi and in the UAE is this constant research around the subject of identity and national identity and the two nations that we are talking about, Denmark and Denmark as part of a bigger group of nations that is Scandinavian and then Japan. Those are places that have clear national identities. So much so that when we say Danish design to almost everyone in the world they know what it is and if we say Japanese design everybody will recognize it and in a way it's kind of a wishful thinking that we would like one day and I hope that will happen, that when we refer to a Marathi design people will have a very clear idea of that. I know that Johnny spent some time with you guys in Denmark talking about national identity. How do you think that happened? How did you reach as Danish as Scandinavian because it's not like the minimalism came from the Vikings or anything and all like how did you reach, how do you think, I don't want to put you on the spot but how do you think you reach a place where your identity or visual identity is so clear? It's a good question and I think there's a lot of scholars that have been trying to answer that in Denmark but I think it actually comes back to being, if we trace it back and you can in fact trace it back to the history of the Vikings. It's a nation of explorers, a very small country, about 5.5 million people so there's always been this wish or urge to go beyond the borders and in that sort of small mentality of the people we want to explore but during the exploration you gather information, gather inspiration that we then have been able to transform and create our own language and then when you fare out again to the world then you spread those ideas and that in the 50s and 60s that was designed that we could contribute to the world. So I don't know if that is the connection but definitely for such a small country the amount of people that are outside of Denmark is actually quite significant. So I think there is a connection that traces back through history of crossing borders and exploring. But if we go back to that moment in history which you're mentioning, let's say mid-century or a little bit before probably that generated that boom of Danish and Scandinavian design of the Jakobsens and all of that, how do you think and again maybe there's a clear answer maybe it's just an opinion but how did you think you get there? Do you think it was a couple of people that were critical in creating that style? Do you think it was a consequence of post-war needs? Do you think it was schools that started that trend? Because I do understand what you're saying, you go out, you explore, you drink a lot of in influences and you bring all this content back, you distill it, you filter it, you shape it in your own way and then you start pushing it out as you are an identity. But there was someone or a lot of people that in a specific period of time create that fundamental shape that is the Danish design, is there a moment or someone that it was critical for that? I don't think you can point that at one specific person or one moment and really stand on the shoulders of great American architects and designers, we stand on the shoulders of Japanese design and there was both before the Second World War and after quite a few people that actually went to Japan and the US to get inspiration. So I think it all sort of comes from those travels, all the knowledge that was brought back and then the fact that we, then it was fortunate enough not to be affected by the war. So quite fast after the Second World War, there was a good foundation to build upon, we didn't have to rebuild the country, it was already there. So I think that's why in the early 50s we were ready to go and it was a boom in economy, people could start to travel. So I think it's just a synergy and a combination of all these things that happen at the right time and then we had these golden years in the 50s and 60s and 70s which we then forgot in the HZN. and 90s on a broad spectrum. - So going back to what you just mentioned about the references of US and Japan, if you would go back and think about what each one of them contributed to that identity, is it that the Americans was the modernism of the neutras and the eems and then the Japanese, the clean, very functional, very pragmatic design, how do you think each one of them contributed to that identity? - I think, well, I think when you look at the eems, there's also a lot of inspiration that they got from Japan. So again, I think it's hard to pinpoint where we got the specific inspiration from, it's just this notion of taking knowledge in and then distill it in our pragmatic danger way. - Yeah, there is something really funny that is today they niche design and the classic, especially if we think, let's say, use the example of the Jakobson. It's a design thing, it's almost luxury thing, in a way you're buying and sharing. But it's funny that every time I speak with Danish people about the Jakobson chair or with Finnish people about the Alvaraltos tool, they say, no, that was functional. It was just a school chair. It's not like it was designed to be icon of design. It was just literally a functional element that became popular, extremely popular, but it was just, I remember specifically about the Jakobson chair, that someone said, no, we always saw those chairs everywhere. It was just the normal chair that we would have. So the design was functional. It was never meant to be influential or trend setter or anything. - No, and I think that goes hand in hand with what you mentioned before about being pragmatic, it was designed for purpose. Like you see in Japan, everything is designed for purpose, but it's crafted by hand. And as people we very easily decode like these kind of things, when it's crafted by hand, when it's made for a specific person purpose, we understand it and we decode it immediately. And therefore it becomes good design. And it's funny, you should mention this about like chairs that you have in school. Like growing up, our school was filled with these, now we call them design classics. And then we threw them out in the '90s, '80s and '90s and early 2000s. And that's actually why just to create a little loop on that, that's where our name norm comes from. It's not about designing, you know, a standard type of architecture or interior or furniture. It's about going back to the norms, about going back to the '50s and '60s to what we had, not copying or me making the design, but understanding this holistic approach where you take the craftsmanship, you take the functionality, you take the pragmatism in and create a design language around that, something that's functional, crafted and therefore also beautiful. I don't want to be obvious in using this expression because obviously it's very much used and abused. And also I don't know enough about your methodology and your approach to confirm it. But is it the case that form follows function in the work you do or not necessarily? - Not necessarily, I think it's both. I think it can bridge both ways. You can stab one, it doesn't have to be one at the other. - It's not a fundamental thing on it. Now you mentioned, as I've been mentioning in the previous episodes and I also mentioned to you before we started, these talks are very spontaneous. You didn't know we were doing this when you came to visit for a project, but we just took advantage of you being here. But even knowing that these talks are part of a wider brand if you want it. It's called the Abu Dhabi sessions that has multiple layers. One of them is supported by attending last year or last session of the year in May. And every year we have a theme and this year the theme is craftsmanship and for us the themes are not a theme. It's just something that is on top of our mind in that moment and in this year it's craftsmanship is really on top of our mind. And the reason is because not only we have a connection with fabric and building things and making things, but I personally am super curious about the concept of craftsmanship associated to pretty much all disciplines of design. So it's easier to associate it with carpentry or clay or whatever. But when I think about the graphic designers, they can be craftspeople in the way that you look. What is your, you mentioned it before? What is your relationship? Your Peter and your norm relationship with craftsmanship? You said it's important. How is that important? What does that mean? Being important for you. - I think just to give a little bit of background both in educational system and also my personal journey to where I am and where I know me is now. A lot of these trades and craftsmanship was in a way lost, I keep coming back to the '90s and early 2000s. But in Denmark we are educated in a school system that's very concept-driven, but we also have access to creating things, to craft things in the workshop, in the lab. But then when you go out to your professional career, it all became digital. We sort of didn't have that connection. But then I spent a good decade in China where we had that accessibility, all of a sudden, what we did in the '50s and '60s and Denmark was available in China again. You had access to workshops, to people who could manufacture any detail that you would draw, that didn't happen in a long time in Denmark. So I think for me the personal journey or in connection to craftsmanship actually was rediscovered in China because it was so readily accessible to create that. And I think that's very similar to what you're doing here. And also, I was completely mind blowing, coming down to visit your studio of your sit-in design. And then you go out to the workshop and you actually create what you design immediately. I wish we can have more of that. And yeah, that's-- We-- our relationship with craftsmanship comes from obviously that we are a family business. And in our DNA, our ancestors, we all-- I still my hobby on the weekends is to do carpentry alone in my garage. And we do have that. But I've been sounding a lot like an old person in when I refer to craftsmanship because we keep saying like in the old days, people. And I'm going through a stage of accepting a lot of things. And one of the things that I accept is that everything evolved over decades, centuries, millennia. And I'm sure craftsmanship is one of them because when they started using hand tools 100 years ago, 200 years ago, in a certain way, they were perceived as modern compared with the things that were done 400 years ago. So I want to accept that the fact that things change doesn't mean that they can't be crafted. And an example is graphic design, which is my background, where when I started doing branding, I was doing it by hand, but then we evolved to computers. And we can still be crafts people by using computers. I think, in my opinion, being a craft person comes from the way you approach the work you do, how much detail you put into it, how much research, how much intricate, how much systems, how much-- and I do agree that we should balance and force. And I know that it's not a word that people like this day is a lot forcing. But I do think we have to-- it's my responsibility as a leader of a studio to force my team to get out of their chairs and to go into a workshop and try something with their hands, because the hardness of that moment, the imperfection of the outcome, will generate thoughts and ideas and perceptions that we have. We'll definitely influence the way that they will work in the digital world. It's not that we can't do those things in 3D renderings or AI systems, but it's just that it's different. The source of information, the influence that you get from that moment is very big. We are very young in designing furniture. We have some of our project designers trying to do furniture. And for several months, they were doing it in the computers. And they said, OK, enough. Now you go to the workshop and you need to grab a tool and work with the-- and their perception changed completely. And a lot of things that made a lot of sense in the computer they had to be redone. Now, you do that-- I won't say it literally by going to the workshop next door, but you do that a lot because the products you design, they are amazing examples of craftsmanship. And when we sit in the chair's design by Norm and it's-- there's a lot of craftsmanship. Now, is that result of the collaboration? Because you collaborate with great carpenters and other kinds of craftspeople? And how does that then influence going back to the computer and designing? Of course, when you are fortunate enough to work with good brands that can carry out your design and understand how to put things together, that's a huge benefit for us. But I think this understanding of craftsmanship also comes from the history that we have in Denmark with the furniture. And as we talked about before, it was so available, sitting on the school chairs. You would feel the wooden spindles of the chairs. You would feel like every detail when you sat in class. So this understanding, this connection to good craftsmanship and furniture, we didn't all stand in the workshop, but we all sat on the chairs. We all understood how it was to be comfortable in a chair. We all understood the materiality, so the touch and feel. And I think a lot of it comes from that, from seeing it over and over again, and actually using the furniture pieces or touching the products itself. So a lot of it comes through this learning of history, whether it's subconscious or conscious. Now, to bring another layer to the subject of craftsmanship and to a completely-- maybe it's even a discipline that it's not associated with craftsmanship. But I definitely associate with you norm is photography. You guys have been publishing these unbelievably beautiful books. And I don't want to remove white from the architecture, but a lot of those books are done because you're also very good at photography. So when we were in Denmark and we were together talking about norm with your partners, and I learned about the importance of photography for the work you do. And even the importance of it for the creation of the norm brand. And I see a lot of craftsmanship in the photography because it took a lot of time to get to your style of photography. Yeah. When you look at our early Instagram, you will see a completely different language and a whole transition from day one to where we are now. But at some point, and this is credited to one of our founders, Jonas, that I believe you made in COVID-19 as well, who does, I would say, 90 to 95% of our photography. He developed his style at the same time as developing and understanding what norm was. And at some point, it was just the right recipe. And I think in Denmark, in the world, there's so many talented designers. But because of this idea of repeating the same formula, not that it's boring, but it's a very clear way of communicating. And that's what the photography did for us. And we were lucky enough that it was the right timing with the digital platforms, Instagram, Facebook, whatever, that we could really push our photography out on a weekly or regular basis. And it was the same kind of image that would be pushed out different projects, but immediately, even the entrained eye could see, OK, this is a known project. And that's helped us tremendously in our brand, as you mentioned. We wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that consistency in documenting our work. And that is really interesting. You're just very kind in bringing me a copy of your latest book focused mostly on your Japan journey. And I think that, in a way, this creation of content-- one of the things that I envy a lot, because we're definitely not there. And to be honest, there's not a lot of studies that I know, even massive architecture studies that are even close to what you do in terms of documentation. But one of the things that I think is really cool in these books and in the way that you are doing is, in a way, almost makes perpetuates your work forever. It's almost like it will stay in the book forever. So one thing is having a portfolio online or sharing some-- but the other thing is the moment you publish a book like the ones you are-- I'm looking at least at two there. I don't know if there's more than two. Yes, there's three books in total. But there's this bridge to almost forever. Yes, which is a very nice segue into the idea of timelessness. I think once you document it, once you print it, it becomes real. I think we're still trying to grasp this idea of something floating digital, or digitally, which is hard. And that's why we also-- we like doing what we do, creating spaces, creating furniture, and creating books. Because then it becomes real, it's documented, it's printed out. And people can open it, they can sit with it in their hand. So it's tangible, it's tactile. But that is really-- so I don't know if you know, but part of our identity is slash, specifically, at slash, under the repo collective group of brands. We don't publish our work. So we don't have portfolio online. And I have several reasons we can talk about later why we do that. But one of the main ones-- and you just answered that about your book and one of the reasons why you connect the book with the timelessness of your work-- is that I feel that portfolios are not timeless. So one of the concerns that I have is that someone that is obsessed with the portfolio or websites that you put your-- is that you are almost obsessed with the trendiness and the coolness and having people to like what you're doing, and now, when you publish a book, especially your books, you need to be very careful that they don't become outdated, so that they are timeless. And what is the process of doing that? Because it's your work, but it doesn't feel like a portfolio. It doesn't feel like you're promoting your catalog of projects. It feels like you're publishing a book that, by the way, is your work, but it doesn't feel promotional. No, I'm happy. You say that, and I'm happy that you notice that as well. Because of course, the second book we published is basically our portfolio. And there will probably be a volume, too, of it. But it's also-- we paired with essays, so it's more opening the engine room or the non-brain and sharing our knowledge, our findings. So it's more like a journey that we are trying to share with people more than a look at our work. This is what we've created. It should really be a discovery into our way of thinking design or our approach to design. And yeah, I mean, there will be projects that we look back on and say-- OK, we've evolved, which is good. Hopefully you will see that. We really try to evolve, but still maintain the core DNA of philosophy of what we are and where we're coming from. Yeah, it's the way I look at them. And in general, the way I look at your work at Norm's work is that with a lot of designers in other disciplines, but also in architecture, when people buy a book or they go to the website, it's usually like to, you know, I don't want to say to copy, but, you know, like, start from what they do. But I have the feeling that with your work, for some reason, you are extremely influential. So I think when people buy these books, and, you know, I've seen some of your books in the most unexpected places. Because in a way, it's almost like not showing the work of someone, but showing a living mood board, a living visual that can influence, but in a really good way. So not in a way of copying, but saying, here's a tone of voice is a language that can inspire you. And I think that that is probably the thing that attracts me more to the norm brand. Is this humbleness, but at the same time, excellence. So it's kind of, you don't shout, but you are really influential in the work that you do by creating this norm brand. And on behalf of everyone that uses your images on mood boards, thank you very much. I think it's probably the most, the studio that contributes more to mood boards in the world. I mean, we're doing something right. And I think that's just the thing. If people want us to use our images and get inspired by it, that means we are doing something right. And that's just the biggest acknowledgement that you can have. And it is, hey, if people want to copy, again, that means you're doing something right. And we will involve, so if people copy, but we'll do something else the next time, but still a continuation of our philosophy and where we're coming from. But to be fair to the work that you do, I think the copy, in your case, contrary to the copy or the tendency or the temptation to copy in your case, I'm telling this from the perspective of pre-knowing you and pre-knowing norm, is always this, when people talk about your work, it's not, I want to copy that. I want to do like that. It's almost like it's not so much, oh, I want to grab that shape or that room or that house. But it's like, I would like to do it like that, in the sense of almost finding the bones and finding the reasons. And that's why I think it's so important the way you do it. I think what, and again, thanks to Jonas for his amazing photography, but the way we document the work, I think it evokes a feeling or an atmosphere. And of course, we have a setting, a background, whether it's furniture or space. But then capturing that through the lens of a camera, sort of evokes feelings. And it's about capturing the space, but it's also about capturing the imperfection of a material or the connection of a beautiful crafted detail. So it's for the person who is looking in the book or looking online at the images to really just disappear into that image. And I had the opportunity to say this to Jonas in Copenhagen. And I don't want to sound unfair to architects. But I think that architecture photography is almost as hard as doing architecture. It's probably harder. Because it's so hard to put in an image what you see with your eyes in a room, in a place. But it's interesting when you look at a lot of our photography, it's very seldom that we capture the entire space. That's correct. And I think that's also beautiful about Jonas' photography work is that you imagine the rest of the room. By the way, he documents the spaces. Your mind starts to wonder what's going on behind me, what's going on behind that door. So it's a lot about capturing moments of layering and light. And it's almost like there's a very clear connection to some of the painters that we used to have in Denmark capturing those glimpses of the Nordic light, whether it was the winter or summer. But this layering of spaces, this understanding of materials and creating this interest of-- I want to see more. And I think that's the beauty of this image. You want to explore more. You want to know what's there. But I will connect that again, and even knowing that you are an architecture studio in a way you are also a photography studio. Because you have professional photographers, some of the best in the world, that Jonas being one of them doing this. When I was with Jonas, I mentioned that I was-- so my passion for architecture photography started in the late '90s. And when I started working with architects as a graphic designer, and I understood how hard it was to do the photography. And back then, I started following someone that I was fortunate enough. We were fortunate enough, slush, to work with him some years back, which is Fernando Guerra, probably one of the best architecture photographers ever. And even knowing that I like photography, I do photography. I understood how hard it is. And I connect back that again to craftsmanship, because yes, it's true that the architecture photographer needs to have a good eye. Yes, it's true that usually the best architecture photographers are architects. But it's a craft, because you need thousands of hours. You need thousands of pictures to reach, again, like practicing on a carpentry thing. It's not-- you can be talented. But it doesn't really matter if you have that talent. If you didn't do those thousands of pictures and hours until you got there. And I remember that Jonas mentioned that-- I don't want to invent the number. But I remember something like it took four years until he found the right photography. And until he was happy with what he mentioned. So there's a lot of craftsmanship in that work also. And it is his passion, his hobby, and his work as well. And I think we're just fortunate to have that as a in-house capacity and creating a brand with that. So as usually with these sessions, I have no idea for how long we are talking. So it could be 15 minutes or 15 minutes. But I think it's a good point to wrap this up. And I'm sure we are going to do a lot of more things between slush and norming the next months and years. And thank you so much, Peter, for coming. And for accepting this impromptu invitation. Of course, thank you for having me. And I'm really looking forward and very, very happy to have this connection on. Thank you. Thank you, see you soon.