#4 Párová terapie | Petr Kačena |

So it's definitely a bigger hardcore. This one is interesting just like the Eastern European Bazaar. It was nice to do it in some pairs that were really sharp. The main red flag is that the more they look bad, the worse it will be. Hello everyone, here is Ondra and Karin. Welcome to another episode of the podcast "Počitek". In our mini-series "Psychotrapeutical Ways", today we will examine a pair of therapies. Our host is a psychologist and a pair of therapies by Petr Kačena. So let's get to it. Hello, we welcome you at the Hibernsk campus. Hello. Hello. Where is it convenient to examine a pair of therapies? It's a pretty difficult question. Maybe I should start with how long the problems of a pair of therapies look like. It took me six years to get rid of these problems and it turned out that it is the same as the previous one. From 2021, which tried to map it retrospectively, it turned out that it is actually 268 years. And most of the pairs will get rid of these problems in two years. But if it is said in two years or two years, I personally think that it is just too long. When I imagine that I am two years old and I am not satisfied with the situation, then why does it take so long without any solution? So when I answer this, I say that if after a period of three or six months, as much as a year, we actually get into some kind of detailed review that we cannot break, which is simply unacceptable. We do not know what with all the attempts we have made. So I think that there is an opportunity to try something else. And it can be a pair of therapies, or you can also break, for example. What are the problems that most often come to you? I would say that these pairs go a lot according to what kind of person is measuring or what kind of person is talking to the media. So when someone talks to the media a lot, of course, then of course they go by themselves. In my opinion, or I generally think that it is the most frequent question, even when I am in front of the whole French team, there are just doubts that these people will come and say, we are talking, it is brutal, then we do not talk to each other, depending on how important it is, we do not talk to each other for hours or days. Some of them will be able to talk to each other for a few weeks after what they are talking about. And they actually want to have an agreement, so that they are in a good mood. So the most frequent question is some kind of communication problems, arguments, then it can be a specific topic. As far as sexuality is concerned, it is usually not sexual, it is more sexual than the other. It can be not sexual in nature, it can be a topic that is decided that they will come by themselves, how they are supposed to say it to children, how they are supposed to do it at home, how they are supposed to practically do it. It can be a question of whether it is sexual or not. I sometimes help them with what they say, the structure of our separation. It is also a relationship between the couple, at least at least three months. Or it can be a topic of polyamory and the opening of the relationship, how to open the relationship, how to do it. For example, when the relationship is already opened, usually one of them does not give it, so he goes with me, with how he does it, so that the polyamory works for them. I would like to know the term "structured separation". How does it work? Structured separation is a procedure like this, sometimes in the 70s, in the French Parliament, when the couple decides whether the relationship is supposed to be or not, they tell them that there is still a possibility to deal with this issue. It works so that the relationship is only once or twice under the stone, so that we can write the agreement about how it will work. So it works like a letter, where they talk about how who is from there, how it will work with children, they write that they will not do machinations with money and give money to the country, that they will not let it happen until after the decision is made. And let's talk about if they have the opportunity to deal with some other romantic tension that is of course problematic when one of them has a romantic or a romantic relationship, then they lead to the whole separation and how it will be in this relationship. And for those who are minimal or why is it for three to six months, then after this period we meet again in my work and it is beneficial because it can reduce the conflict between them and their partners to breathe a little, gain some better perspective on whether this is actually the life they want to have, and then only one is enough to decide that he does not want to be in this relationship and then who is from there. Most of the time when it happens that they are from there, I do not know that anymore, I recommend them one at a time, but they do not want it and everyone pays for their own and now they continue in it. If someone has decided on a couple of therapies, then how do they have the first season and who actually looks like that? It will be the first season with some individual therapy, it is a bit specific that there at the beginning a person is getting some basic information from the clients, I use a lot the structure that I have used in the national order, so I ask for quite a long time, for the name, for the age, for how long, for my work, for my business, when I come there, I can already expect some specific problems and then I tell them in silence that I keep silence, I tell them in meaningful words and then we have fun in those problems. And then when we think about what the order should be, so the pairs have more themes, but one of them is dominant, one of them is that it has led to therapy and they often want to solve it the most so after that, in the course of the first one or in the next seasons, we solve the theme with which they came. And if I would say in short the theory, these emotional problems are the problems of interaction. Every day the pair gets into what we call the "cyclus". The "cyclus" is some kind of the pattern of the problems that they cause. For example, the most frequent pattern of those pairs is what we call "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" or "perseuer-distancer" Do you keep this in mind? The basic principle of therapy is that the therapist must stay on the other side It's not always the case that I should stay on the other side because I think that in the first place I should stay on the other side of course, I play the part where I say "that's really terrible" and if it's a heterosexual case or vice versa then it's terrible I completely understand how it's difficult but I also have a long way to go because I have the experience that the therapy is just coming out and at the end I will definitely end up somewhere on the other side There are also different ways how to keep it neutrality for example, if you don't go to one of your partners to recommend something or close it a little so at the end of the session you have some recommendations for both so it's definitely not but you usually tell them something what they like And there are moments when you would recommend individual therapy or some family therapy So the individual therapy always helps us because we are in this situation and in the problems of the situation we are dealing with some of our individual problems and of course the more we have those individual problems the more we will be a partner in this situation because we will be in this situation when they come and tell me that they are going to the individual so it's definitely a good sign especially during colleagues who don't do this kind of therapy and do individual therapy so they don't really know the aspect of their client in those individuals how to deal with this how difficult it is how this partner is not dangerous and it confirms that they are in this role and my therapist confirmed it how dangerous it is so it's definitely better for me because their therapist has some information about how the therapy works or ideally they do it because I think they are more careful when people go to the individual who go somewhere for a couple of days so I pay more attention so that I don't create another conflict in their situation because they are both and they have to deal with it sometimes of course they have to deal with it but not usually How do you become a couple therapist? We don't have any established process we have a couple therapist first of all a person who has absorbed the long-term psychoterapeutic response and then when you do it you can start saying that you are a couple therapist and it's similar as with a coach so if you become an individual therapist then you just have to go to the first exercise and then of course it's good to do an advanced exercise where you just focus on the work of a couple and the work, the couple therapy is taught individually is ideal especially in the fact that you have to be more active compared to those therapists who start with it individual therapy makes a mistake because it's the same as I sat there for the beginning of my career and I was left there so it doesn't go in those couples because you have to facilitate the process, follow the clients the emotions are left there but as it is it is not regulated because when these people are completely unregulated then you have no work you don't have to do it you have to stop it you don't want to stop it but you don't want to touch them so you have to do it in some way so of course a person has to be more active in that work as a different compared to those individual therapy Tomi is saying that there is a lot of knowledge that we go there after the individual therapy so where I could get some existing training where I could approach a couple therapy a little more Yes, I got to it or I chose it because I was working with groups I did workshops with them and I had the experience and group facilitation so for me it was easy to go there with that couple because the group is small there are only two there are certainly not many so there are more who do a few therapy institutes Pavel Ratay I would say a bit psychoanalytically oriented I think it means integrative because Pavel Ratay has more psychoanalytic therapy then there is more because of the title "Psychoanalytically oriented" and I have a more international therapy focused on emotions I chose the EFT Emotional Leaf Focus Therapy because there is the most of those scientific evidence about the fact that it is a certain approach to work with couples that I would say that it is the most and so it was an application that was online that I did and what I did my standard more systematic therapy and for those who choose it so that the psychotherapy is not fully understood so what do you pay attention to the choice of that application? I think the best is to choose the one that we personally like and we have a cognitive style or how we think so when someone is structured I think that he will be able to communicate with KBT someone has the opposite when someone is not structured I would be able to improve so I would do KBT to make it a little bit better so I chose the EFT Systemic Therapy because it came to me ideologically fine so I ran the EFT system or the approach that it does not work with emotions it does not look into the past in the employment work and then it showed me that the personal employment family history is quite important because in the employment work we are playing what we know from our family or older couples and that's why I chose the EFT therapy not only for the medical evidence but also for how it works with our previous experiences with how they manifest in this partnership and I think that this is how everyone will progress that everyone is doing their first work and then we run the work but it is strange that the work does not reflect the aspects of the psyche and the human experience and then try to complement the work in the future You have already changed more activities during the couple therapy as a challenge against individual therapy do you see any other challenges against these classical individual therapy? It is certainly a bigger hardcore like when you are playing a couple of individual sessions it can happen and it does not have to be very active but it is very important for the intensity of this conflict that there will come a few who are very busy and the work with them is extremely difficult the person is struggling a lot of time only in the first phase of therapy which has to be very valid which is in order to be among these partners the conflict will never happen so as the emotions that we have they are difficult I also have a fantasy that I would like to help them and that I would like to be successful with them and it is impossible that the level of success of a couple therapy is 70% so that 30% of the couple even if the work in the department is better, I just can not help them and they will continue to be lucky or decide to break up There are some myths about couples therapy which would like to break up what do people think? I think that from the perspective of these partners it is the fact that colleagues think that they must do more individual therapy and then get to that couple I think that this is not the right way because if the individual therapy is going to be long then there will be some bad habits or habits of the couple therapy so I will not be at all bad if someone in the department of the department of the department is already planning on the work with couples now that he is getting some experience he is completing this task and it is the main domain that is coming out that then it may take part in the recovery of the individual, how many years do you do it? Yes, exactly I would also like to ask if someone from our listeners currently respects couples therapy for example even after listening to today's episode what would you recommend them as the first step? It is in Brazil but I think that in other parts of the republic it is quite complicated so it is difficult for someone to break up I think that a lot of people make great efforts looking at how they would go and then think about it and then in a few days I will write about the one chosen person who wrote about it I don't have the capacity so I would probably shorten the part of the selection of the therapist and I would go more quickly into some terms for example 2-3 people then I pay for individual therapy for example for the first two seasons for the first two seasons for the first two seasons when I sit down I choose one who is good it is possible to look at the therapy at the hospital it is possible to look at the famous doctor but I think that a lot of people come to the therapy so they ask if you can recommend someone that we are often asked who would you recommend to our guests and I was also very happy when I met some supervisors or personally as a colleague and then the friends went there and they were not satisfied with it so it will come to me that it will not even hit the people who sit down that's why it's good to have the experience and the experience with them I met with the fact that people who followed a couple of therapy for example preferred the therapeutic couple against one person is there any advantage this is interesting as an Eastern European bizarre because this is what we have during things that I do not know whether it is communism or where because when you look at the West or the United States and this is what they say when you do the international training they look at me as what God is doing why are you doing it here is the logic why he does it if they are not afraid if he will keep them or not so that's why during the colleagues they actually have such a couple who are mostly husband and wife with that logic that then the clients will feel safer when they will be the two heads that they... I think it is exactly the opposite because when I have clients I am more mentally I can do that because I am myself but I am a guy so I have a passion to do these things here depending on how I keep it in my head so I think it is like a guy who would like someone to keep it so it is better to choose the therapy of the opposite head but as I said it is one of the signs of professionalism it is very important to be neutral and from this point of view I think that the two therapy there are an essential loss of time especially the capacity of the therapist I also mentioned this moment and I found out that the people do not want to pay because it is even more expensive that you have to pay two people for one but then from the medical organization it is very difficult where you meet him and in the end I let him go I also understand that the therapists want to do it because it is much easier work because it is there 50% you can be quiet and leave it on the colleague I had the effect that I remembered that I was much more passive that I said something when I had the feeling that it is really good and if not I left it on the colleague and that was in the workshop when I started it was nice to do it with some pairs that were really sharp the work was very difficult and the person was happy that he had the support of the colleague and then you can have fun with the clients and laugh at the wonder what it was like today so it is nice maybe it is also nice when it starts so you have to see the more experienced colleague how he works so it is good for me but I think that the practice as the work of a therapeutic pair that it is necessary I think that there are advantages mainly for sleeping for the therapist well, of course, there are advantages for the therapist and for the client and it is not that he pays more and that's the whole thing and also the rule of thumb if someone would choose the pair therapist then we can ask for their knowledge or our individual therapist but how to get rid of some people who are busy as a coach or a pair therapist but it is not a pair therapy so we should be careful here I think that it is similar as the individual therapy the main red flag is that the more the worse the result the worse it will be it is definitely important or it is definitely good for me some development high school and then some psychoterapeutic specialization I was very orthodox but in the beginning of the career I saw a lot of colleagues who had enough development and actually did the work wrong and then a lot of colleagues who, for example, studied something completely different I don't know, social work or someone else who got into work with a pair were much more clever and more sensitive in communication with that pair several times I thought that the clients were talking about where they were going and what the therapist was saying there and I just look at it that it is not possible that the person, for example, in such an uncomfortable way communicated with them about the problems they had now I don't know what's behind it from what I said so maybe it is so that maybe we will find someone who has this qualification for example, it does not matter to us that there will be no one else who can help us so in my opinion as a minimal criterion is that if someone has psychotherapy or therapy, then it is or he has an absolved psychoterapeutic education and if someone has a training he has an absolved training which is accredited if someone has a vaginal mapping then he should have more vaginal mapping and he should not have psychotherapy so thank you very much that you came and so it was all for us yes thank you very much thank you very much for the invitation thank you for listening to another part of the ministry about psychotherapy if you have a couple of therapy questions please write to us follow us on Instagram and Facebook and we look forward to hearing from you