(4) 1990er Jahre - europäische Kriegsopfer

[Music] We are here. [Music] 50 years of Swiss migration background, a journey in nine stations. [Music] Station 4, the 90s. Traveler from the Balkans and the emergence of integration politics. [Music] Yes, no one was there from the beginning. Everyone came from somewhere. Also my guests of today's episode. I warmly welcome Trajica Rajic, who has joined us from Innsbruck. Good day. Good day. I warmly welcome Ivica Petrusic. Good day. Good day. And our expert here in the round, our scientific expert here in the round, Denise Efionaei Meider. Good day. Good day. The 90s brought war back to Europe. Two hours ago, at the entrance to the port of Split, they were finally able to breathe. The passengers from Slavia. 1,300 women, children, old men and sick people brought the ferry from the army from the foreign world to Dubrovnik, a safer area. Many of them were drawn by the thieves. Some women also brought the children from friends and relatives. After what they have done, they do not want to talk about it now. Yugoslavia is very much. The parts of the states were fought and there were too many flight movements. Even in Switzerland. But political repressions and economic pressure already led to the outbreak of war, to the increased expansion, so that in Switzerland, within 10 years, the permanent population of the neighboring states of Yugoslavia was almost doubled. This made them afraid. This partly led to the reaction to a stronger right-wing populist party, which got louder and louder. And as a reaction to this, a policy of integration was also called into life. With integration, a trend twist should be marked in the process with the migration population. And we will discuss this in this episode. Dragica Reijic, you are a writer, have a moving story with Switzerland. You can say that she came to Switzerland in 1978, from her homeland Croatia in Switzerland. There were refugees, workers, cleaning women, and then returned to Croatia in 1988. And then in 1991, shortly thereafter, she had to flee with her three children to Switzerland. Now, Dragica Reijic, please explain from this precise moment when she had to return to Switzerland, this time as a woman on the flight with her children. It's been 30 years since I fled with three children to Switzerland in a summer morning in June. I thought I'd leave for two weeks. And for me, this morning is exactly like yesterday. And I was, as you said, already ten years in Switzerland. So you don't have to imagine how you flee otherwise. You sat in a bus, drove through the north of Croatia. There were already first fights. Our bus was almost shot down. And that was the first real encounter that it was really serious war. If you shoot at someone, you know that war is now there. And that was 30 years ago. So I came to Switzerland with three children. My ex-man had lived in Switzerland. But we didn't have a house. That means he had a small room. And then I didn't get my visa anymore. Or it was rejected because the family didn't have enough living space. And I said, yes, is it better for you that we are now dead there or here in a single room apartment? And that would be pretty bad for me at the foreign police in St. Gallen. Because I said that the pigs, too, have a certain square meter of distance. But I just want my children to live. And it was pretty emotional, because you didn't know at the time if the whole family lives and so on. You are the exception and the environment of course reacts. Then as they react, so with confusion. Ivica Petrucic, you are a business leader at the Okai in Zurich and also a youth director of the Kantons-Zürich. You were 14, you had to leave Bosnia with your family. Today you are an expert in youth and migration. How was your start here in Switzerland as a 14-year-old? Yes, the biggest topic of the 14-year-old in these years is puberty. There is enough to do to find the right way as a young man to be thrown into this old age. And when I think back to this time, it was especially this pregnancy. I come from a village where everything was a little clear, as far as it can be clear in puberty. You have friends and you know a little bit how to behave and become a girl, suddenly so interesting and such things. And then you come here and everything is new, this cultural approach to people. What are the codes for young people, how do I find friends, that were the most important topics. The language and so on, I didn't know, but that went pretty fast. But above all, that was left for me, to change a country in puberty, to change a culture circle or to change friends. And that was especially very important. Yes, let's try to move a bit further into these early 90s, as Yugoslavia in a very short time is very much, as well as in a very short time a category of very important words, the ethnic belonging. The Elend does not let it go. They fled from the war areas to Sagaip, now they move on. They don't have more than they buy and carry bags. They bring the train to the coast to Istria, still it is safe there. 90,000 refugees are in the Croatian capital, they are hardly able to bring and feed, and more are coming every day. In whole Croatia, 500,000 people are on the run. It led to neighbors, neighbors, who have lived happily together in this country, standing on two sides of the front. In the whole country there were ethnic customs, on the details we can't enter here. There were, if you want to count this together, over 140,000 dead in this war. And as the worst massacre remains, the massacre of Srebrenica in memory. Yes, now that you have to flee, you have to decide for a country. Thank you, Zarajic. Yes, as I said before, I have lived in Switzerland for 10 years. In the meantime, I have three children and I have written a book about guest workers. And with this book, which I have written, in the language, like the construction workers actually use it in Switzerland, the media really bothered me as a writing cleaning woman. And I didn't see my future in Switzerland, that's why I left. And I came back, my ex-husband lived there, but I didn't want to write a Swiss letter. For me it was not an opinion to be a writer in German, I wanted to write back in the mother language. So to speak, I came to Switzerland early, both times. First time because of marriage, with a football player and second time because of war. But it was never my, so to speak, free decision. I'm looking for a country where my dream country is. And can you briefly explain that with the writing cleaning woman? Yes, I can briefly explain that. I have always written after the abitura and that I saw in Switzerland how difficult these people are to experience here in Switzerland. As a child, I experienced it very much when they came there, in the nice clothes, new cars. You were angry at them. But what I then had in Switzerland, although I had matured, I had to clean my living room, it was pretty cold. So to speak, I lived a whole life which I never wanted to do. And I wrote about it, and that would be the sensation that a foreign woman writes. And above all, that she writes from her point of view and not from the point of view of the foreigners. And that has solved very big media echo. I was on TV a lot, but always the speech was about my cleaning work and not about the style or my language. About myself and about the statements I make. And I thought, no, I don't have a future writer, I will always be surrounded by this stamp as a guest writer. And that's what I've been doing so far. Ivica Petrovic, when you listen to this stamp, what does it say about the situation on the one hand? What does it say about the country that we speak about? For us, it was so that my father already knew Switzerland in this seasonal status. So he lived here for a certain amount, or again and again, for so many years, around the society and in a barrack. And he could speak Italian better, because he worked with Italians at the construction site. And so we had a relationship. That's why it was clear where we were going. And then it was this feeling, it wasn't at all that we somehow took part in the society, but he already took us with him. Because we never had the feeling that we would then still be perceived as part of the society later on. So you would say you moved from the edge into this country, so to speak? Yes, it wasn't what I wanted or thought at all, and it was okay. I think my parents and my father, they have always lived in this service in a certain way. I'm on the edge, I earn a little money and we go. And suddenly it means that we are here, but the idea of ​​we will go or we will stay on the edge. So that's what my father means to me, my parents. Finally, when I was still a grown-up in the Cantonargao, my mother asked me if I was allowed to do that. Can you, as a not-right Swiss, make politics in Switzerland? So it lasts until the end of 30 years until my parents go back, then later. So this feeling of not being part of the society, that that's what I think of myself. Here the problem is that the recording capacity in Switzerland is also proven by some studies that have been made in our assignment. And that we hit certain borders here, not necessarily what the infrastructure is, but what the acceptance is in the population. So the authorities are at the standstill of the boat? Certainly not, it is not in this mass that you have to meet emergency measures, but the internal political climate is also an aspect that you have to pay attention to in this area. Tragicarecic, the feeling of not being part of the society, is that the same with you? Yes, to be part of the society is difficult to talk about, because I mean, I had children. Every normal Swiss, I was very impressed that they did not work as Swiss. Although in Yugoslavia 90% of women have worked. That means that they worked with children in Swiss foreigners. And then the question of time comes, you don't feel well because you have no contact with the outside world. Back then, Yugoslavian men in these clubs met or did sports. But for women with small children, that was generally a problem. And of course it was for foreigners, cooperation and children. There is no possibility to have any kind of freedom, so to speak. If we now take word integration, that is a very concrete thing, you do not have time for it. Different realities, what you experienced in the past in Yugoslavia and what you face here. A bit of the advantage was for me that I had the time, because of the school, just in the difference between the Tragicarecic and the others. When I was able to learn that, I was allowed to take the time to get into the language and slowly into the society. What my parents never managed to do. And also my two parents, siblings, five and seven years old, they had already finished school in Yugoslavia. They definitely live a different life today than I do. So I had this happiness with school and I was especially very happy, if I can say so, with good teachers. They also did a lot for me, really, the diversity, the width of Switzerland, to show and to show that I have the courage to take certain steps that my family has never taken. Now both of you have come from a country in which there was war. How were these war experiences, also these war traumas, that are subjectized here in Switzerland? Did you talk to them about it? Was it a topic at all? Yes, so I have read myself what I am about. I have now read from Kursen, there is, so to speak, trauma on the second line. So in that sense, we can probably better understand today, because we are isolated and actually not threatened. And yet we feel threatened. And it was exactly in this war that you, so to speak, also hesitate about safety. And how I did that, I wrote theatre pieces, which are found in a cellar. And the whole audience was with me in this protective cellar and experienced an hour. What does that mean when you flee and don't know whether your parents will still live up there? So I really tried to save my environment, to traumatize the feeling of people there. And then I also founded a community, a community where I have gathered parents for parentsless children. And so through my literary and humanitarian work, I tried to be active, so to speak, in this fear and this disaster. And you feel it later, much later. I wrote a book later, Postbellum, what then all happens during this time. And how were the reactions to this theatre piece? Very affected. I then found many partnerships. And above all, what I have to say afterwards, it was mainly the women who came. And it was also the women who were part of the Second World War, who spent a lot of humanitarian aid, their entire expense from cooking times. And there was no such distinction, how should I say, like today, this polarization. The people really had the ones I got to know. They had a lot of sympathy with refugees and even I have an open letter. At that time, the National Council President Rudolf Nebiker wrote, because he once flew with his children and with his wife Kirschen. I told him his wife, but Rudolf, let refugees in. And the Glauber immediately got 500 refugees. At that time, with the Bundeswehr in three feet, they were taken to Switzerland. That was something very positive. So a feeling of solidarity from the sides of the Swiss population. Before the press conference, the president of the Swiss refugee aid, Angelin Fanghauser, explained that it was the highest time to act. Help works, churches and personalities from politics and science appeal to the Bundesrat RASCH to take up 10,000 to 15,000 refugees from Bosnia. Would the Swiss population accept so many people from ex-Yugoslavia? A large part of the people working in Switzerland who have lived here for a long time, refugees have not so much so far. But we are in a emergency situation and once again, no one should die because we are afraid of having something against them. Yes, I think the topic came much later. I think this topic also politicized me, that we are now in this negative picture and all these Balkans and Yugos and especially the youth. But I have lived very positively for the first few years, even with these teachers. I said that they have a lot to do with it in school, I have music. My teacher also supported me musically back then, I still make music today and at that time we were able to talk a lot about the identity through projects. Today, I have become aware of this idea much later. What we did back then as young people, I came from a country called Yugoslavia. Then I got my first pass in Switzerland as a Croatian pass, although I am geographically from Bosnia. I leave a country with a pass, come to another country, get a new pass from a country that is fresh, but I have never lived in this country before, I became Bosnian later because I do not speak there. And now you have to bring all this somehow into the corner and then the people ask you, do you want to go back? There is no more this return. There was no Yugoslavian. I was a Croatian citizen and then suddenly went to Bosnia. It was so complex and I am so grateful that we were able to think about the identities in this diversity and make projects in school. And I think that helped me become a very good person for me afterwards. Also as a forum about this war and about what happened at home? Yes, for us in Central Bosnia it was in 1993. It was late that we were expelled from my village and that people were killed and brought back from my apartment. We once again had a very special story with a enemy and a friend. And then it was late that when I was already two years old, the real bad wave came again, when we experienced it in Ausland, in the media, it would have been like it was brought back and passed on. In the past, we were already from this very bad and became so distant, I experienced all these things again, especially through my parents, who had a very strong commitment with help, as Dragit said, also with some convoys and things. And so I experienced it from the worst time for our area, from Switzerland. The house of the family Zukovic is in Gizhar on the bright afternoon. A dead man, Mio Hegedus, dies at the window. The father-in-law tells. At four o'clock in the afternoon, the militia of the Federal Army had left their support point. Milo was at this point exactly. He worked in the background. Suddenly fire, smoke, he could not see anything. Father, father, the children would still have called, then Mio Hegedus died. The shooting took place until evening, and so the body car could only come in the night. Yesterday they carried Mio Hegedus to the gate. It is a war to experience from afar. You have already heard it, Dragit Reitschitz, it is also difficult to bear. I think that is partly because you do not have materiality, except for the materiality of television images. So I would not have these ways of working with writing. I have written three books and theater pieces at this time and engaged in peace work. It was this overcompensation of activity, so an active art, which of course my children came too short, I later did. They are also here as refugee children. I had the same problems as Iwitsam. A daughter should go to the gym. First at school, then she was allowed to go to the gym. I had three children, who actually lost their dog and for them it was the saddest. You could only experience war specifically, and all these new experiences, which I made there today, were somewhere next to me, first with Linda Najaboni. She was with me with the book "Dawben fliegen auf". These voices of my children in this war time. I did not experience it, which is very sad for me, but thank God we have literature where you can at least read it, like other children who have experienced it. Yes, we are lucky with you, art or music. Music was this project. We learned that projects were always for us. When my parents were, when I listen to them now, they were so busy with being in Bosnia, sending all the money and everything, it was oriented down. And it was also a bit nice to have this freedom. They could not help me, but it was also so, I could do what I wanted. So, it was a special situation in this kind of freedom. I was not aware that they were really dead, it was more important for them, and I had to go to school and have cancer. I had to do this as well, and my mother at some point said that it was good, but they were very burdened with this war. We just tried to get to the Bundesrat relatively early on our side, so that we could at least do a humanitarian gesture. We asked them if they were ready to take up more than 900,000 women and children from Yugoslavia, in the sense of taking up a preliminary recording. Let's talk about this "back" that is always there in the conversation. You were asked, "Do you want to go back?" At the time, the question always came again, "Do you want to go back?" You were also in a precarious status. There was no idea that you were asylum for Bosnian refugees or only for very few, but there was this status of preliminary recording. Can you tell us more about this precariousness, this status, Tragitsa Reidschitz? Yes, I worked in refugee camps at the time, so I did a practice, because I later studied socio-culture. I saw the people who were taken up at the time. This is the first time that Switzerland has taken up a humanitarian recording of people from affected areas of war. This means that if the war is no longer there, they can go back. I will only tell you an example of a family that is unforgettable to me. The people were taken up as Bosniaks from Kosovo. At the time, they knew that the Muslims were asylum in Switzerland, and I said that they were taken up as Bosnians. Unfortunately, when the war in Bosnia was no longer so current, they were sent back, but at that time the war started in Kosovo. They were still Bosniaks, they were Muslims, but in Switzerland, I also heard for the first time that there was a minority of Bosniaks in Kosovo. This family was there and could no longer go back into the war area, but the Muslims from Bosnia had to go back, and so they had to search for asylum in Bosnia for the second time. There were ethnic groups of people who had two ethnic groups. There was a family that fled from Banyaluka to Belgrade as a mother Serbian, and the father was a Croatian and fled to Croatia. There were absurd stories. I think that Michael Schischkin was a translator at Bund and said that the best story of an asylum official gets a price, because if you tell the truth, you don't believe a person. Because you always had to play with these identities and with the people you met. It was a bit of a mess for me, I didn't take care of these books. I think I got this job very quickly, and even though I had a status that my father had, I quickly went over with the baby and that was done, I think. He showed himself as a good morator, and then he had this status as an asylum official. Now I would like to know, Ivica Petrushic, when did you go over with the solidarity in this aggression against the Jews? When did that come from your perspective? I can probably remember consciously, when I was politicized. It was really this bashing. It was the end of the '90s, 2000s, I finished my studies and there was a party with my husband who had the extreme economy. He had a lot of political and political success, and somehow something must have happened there. If I now apply this as a youth, then you can explain it well. Of course, we took the youth as an outside space in terms of public space, and we also felt a lot at home there. There was a certain amount of entertainment outside, you show yourself, you meet, you are loud. We have this kind of mediterraneanization of public space, with this migration to do. Of course, we were the ones who were in the '10s, the '11/'12s, who came in the '18/'19s, the youths who were really striking. I don't know, it was probably this image that you have today, when you see three or four people on the train from Eritrea, there was already a danger. It was with us at the time, because we used the public space as a culture, as a meeting place for us and showed ourselves. And that brought me back to this whole policy, because I wanted a little more differentiated. You had the asylum applications, with the third generation, with economic refugees. You did everything in one place, and I wanted a little more differentiated in this whole topic, but that wasn't what I wanted at all, so not today. - What happened? - No, it's not that bad, I have a colleague, I have a wife. - Because of your wife? - Yes. - Because of you? - Yes, that's right. - Then I talked to her, she didn't do anything. - So then everything is already done? - Yes, everything is done, nothing bad happened. It is about power and honour, and about women. Especially for youths, it is often a solution for strikes. I also worked in a youth house and interviewed the Albanian youth and their parents, and they were so alienated. This father couldn't understand that now their growing sons simply don't want to work in construction as they do. They didn't have any ideas about Switzerland, these groups had all the difficulties, but when I came here, they were the Tamilian leather jackets. They were always a group of foreigners, first they were Italians, then the Tamils, and now they were Kosovians, and then we constantly had these pictures of the Razor, where these Razors are today, they are Shakiris or something like that, so it was political, it was turned around, but also at the social status of these foreigners, who haven't been able to do that yet, they have met, so to speak. And what was the political purpose, the political idea behind it, that you have now said it before, people from the former Yugoslavia, from the Kosovo, who have made sandbags about a lot of topics, what is your analysis, Tragicarajic? I will say that you know from literature, it is not a taboo truth in which we no longer have to deal with the social class, but with the foreigners. So you, so to speak, emphasize the workers and connect them with individual characteristics, because for example, all Kosovians who have gone back have only beautiful memories of Switzerland and are very happy that they were in Switzerland. The first generation really never had anything against these men, they were the fathers of these young people. At that moment, this second generation, which has been around for a long time, has a resistance. And that's, they call themselves words, they can speak better German, they have a different life force, and you don't wear that, because you need slaves, that's what Max Frischöng said. And at that moment, when someone shows himself and shows his needs or his life, then he is even worse treated as a foreman. I can only limit or support that, I didn't feel like it, I wanted to live this integration thing. So when you say, you don't have to assimilate, we may come to these terms, I can't change completely and then fit in. So I played with these identities, so I had a self-awareness, and I don't do everything like this or that, but I live the integration, I am this and that, I don't let myself into this either or in, I am both as well. And that was a provocation and then we founded this movement called "Kondos Plus" and it was also very quickly known and famous and had their own national lists. Sibel Arslan is a member of the national group today, we all came to Switzerland in the same way and didn't want to play around with us. We just didn't want to agree with it, we just wanted to get in, but we didn't want to get in with the past, we just wanted to do what we had to do, but in our self-awareness, in what we understood under integration and in our identity. Yes, let's change the perspective and come to the conversation with our scientific expert here at the table, Denis Evionai Maitas, you are the Executive Director for the University of Neuschatelle for Migration Research, and you have been asked several times about migration research, especially about the perspective of the return of the uncertainties. You have listened to both of them here and made a few notes, of course I take wonderfully what is on these notes, Denis Evionai. In my opinion, perhaps the question of art and the role of art I find very exciting, that music, literature, theater, projects, that is something that is often connected and that is not so complicated, something that also corresponds emotionally, cognitively and emotionally, and I think that we often observe that bridges will then also be hit by this path. Very impressive was, of course, something that we have known for a long time, that the first generation has to often open up a little, or perhaps give certain opportunities. Most of the time, there were refugee refugees or seasonal refugees, and then here a de-qualification, also professional, where then the children have achieved their entry. And what I also found very interesting, yes, when we then come to these 90s, the question, why have you shown it to the people from the Balkans? And I think that this also has something to do with the fundamental social conflicts, which one always likes to do in Switzerland, because of this struggle of alienation, which is still in the foreign law until 2008, so to speak. You have to explain that now. It is interesting that in Switzerland there is actually no working class. When you ask the people in Switzerland how they behave socially, then they all say they belong to the middle class, to the bank, from the relatively simple employees. And it is just so that in the 60s, 70s, especially the lowest levels were occupied by migrants on the working class level. And that is still the case today, although perhaps not the same as back then, the Italians or not the people from the Balkans. Today they may come from Africa, from Pakistan, from South America and then there is still the Saint-Papier. But that's why it has changed, I think Dragitza has spoken of working ethnicities. And that's why you also change the situation of people who are in a social precarious situation, in a social precarious situation, are with their so-called culture. Today, interestingly, COVID-19 is now that they suddenly become system-relevant, because we just need them, so that they just clean and deliver and sell. But that's something that is being discussed in Switzerland unwillingly. About social shifts and also the fact that there is relatively little social mobility in Switzerland. The people who go to the upper class or middle class stay there, rarely go there. Good for you, but it is quite difficult to go up in the universities. We still have very few people today who have come from the type of shift. Then you would say, in all these, I'll tell you now, discourses or speeches or in this speech, go back again, do not stay here or do not stay too busy. Something like that also prevents you from staying where you are and does not rise, please. Yes, so until the 90s, we also had this guest worker model, so a rotation model, where the foreigners were conjuncturists, which you then just picked up. At the oil price shock in 1974, you sent it back. At the time there was still no unemployment insurance and that's why you exported the unemployment rate. Today you know that the overall economy was not as advantageous as you often said. But because of that, of course, you could always cancel the conjuncture. And when you suddenly had a recession in the 90s, a crisis, we were in a difficult situation with the EU. The EU countries, mainly Italy and Spain, then also demanded that their workers who were in Switzerland were treated better. And that's why you also got people from Yugoslavia, among other things, to increase the season. And in the 90s, at the same time, there were also many people who were also secured here in the meantime and then had a unemployment insurance and then could no longer be sent back. In terms of the people from Yugoslavia, the status was a precarious one for a long time, i.e. with preliminary recordings, humanitarian recordings and so on and so forth. What was actually done with this status? Yes, the idea was already, at the time, that Ulo Hochkomissariat for refugees, the countries that asked for refugees to be taken up periodically, to be taken up temporarily. And the idea was actually already that the people would simply bridge a time of the war and then send it back again. And then it has shown itself and I think in the meantime we have learned so much and noticed, in any case, with the conflict in Syria, that it is often not so fast and not so easy, apart from the fact that of course the people also live in it. But it's true and I found that very interesting for both of them. On the one hand, you had the guest-worker model with the session, who had to earn his salary, and then after every five years he got a baby and then he could stay. On the other hand, the people from the asylum area, and there was a very similar system, there was also only, was also built in advance, with maybe another additional problem, that you just saw integration and return readiness as antagonisms and then actually never read the people working. That was a big problem, that the current pre-trial recording is not like today's. Today, pre-trial recordings still have a very precarious, difficult status, but they always have the opportunity to work. They have relatively free access to the labor market, and that wasn't the case at the time. Some of the reactions to this changed situation, we now have a new category of people who have come to Switzerland, with the perspective of maybe staying longer, there was then the invention, let's say, this concept of integration. And now, Denise Fionnais, you have dealt with this concept very intensively. What was the thought behind it, that you have now spoken of integration? Yes, so in Switzerland, up to the 90s, the migration to the labor market was driven. Almost exclusively seen by the asylum seekers, there was the refugee status since the 50s in Switzerland. And then you noticed in the 90s, that simply the labor market could no longer integrate everyone. Previously, there was a large need for workers, who then also did not learn German, as Wizza emphasized, but rather Italian, because it was spoken in Italian on the construction site. And then it came to this partly economic, house-made recession in the 90s in Switzerland. And now suddenly the labor market has been able to create this integration no longer out of its own powers. And then there was unemployment for the first time abroad. By the way, Switzerland was also unemployed at the time. Switzerland knew this until then, almost not. The unemployment rate was very, very low until the 80s. And there were real problems, and because you never come out of this rotation model in the long-term integration, not even in the early education, and not even in the further education of the former session years, or of the labor forces and not the asylum seekers, of course these people had a difficult stand on the labor market. And there came the demand now, also from the states, who were partly in charge of the situations. Of course, the asylum migration was still possible, from the former Yugoslavia. In particular, we also talked about families or other countries beforehand. But of course, both came together. And then a lot of people came from the asylum area, where children and families were brought up. Sometimes in very small homes, and at the same time there was not enough work. And what is the basic thought of this integration policy? Investigation in migrants, but also in the guest society, the majority society, or how do you imagine that? Yes, so on paper, and in research, integration is always an opposite process, which both the guest society, the authorities and the migrants themselves, the immigrants, demand. And of course, both rights are considered, but also obligations are demanded. In reality, integration is often still used in a broader people's mind, but still with this adaptation, which is used synonymously. I think that the guest worker model still affects it a bit. You often say that guests should adapt. And forget that guests are not adapted, they pay taxes, they belong to it, they have to agree, they have to work themselves. They are not even foreigners, they are in the inland, right? Now you would say, Denise Fionnay, this concept of integration has actually failed. Actually, it is just a continuation of the old assimilation policy. There are some researchers and there are also people who would perhaps claim it, or say that integration policy is still a bit replaced by this model, which is mainly based on requirements against the added migrants. And relatively few requirements, by the way, you can see that in the new foreign and integration law, relatively few of the society is required. But I think you have to be careful, because there are very different approaches in integration policy, and I would not generally criticize them. So there are certainly also approaches that give the population to inform, to involve, to develop in a dialogue. But basically, the model is still behind it, here is the majority society, here are minorities. And it is still not thought together, or how do I have to imagine that? Yes, so you could often talk about integration in the sense of participation, in the sense of not only participation, but also participation in certain rights. And it is important that it can also be determined, because a pluralised society can only arise if there are institutions where everyone can participate, and maybe even bring together conflicts. Switzerland actually knows this, with its four languages, with the various parts of the country, but always had a bit of difficulty to transfer these traditional multiculturalities, the parts of the country, to other cultures, and to be involved in them. The secondos, whose parents came from ex-Yugoslavia in the early 90s, these secondos have not only disappeared from the statistics, because they have become older, but above all because they are always better integrated. They have made a lesson, and many also career. If you look at the numbers, and at the nations, you can clearly see the progress, and also at the people from ex-Yugoslavia, that means that the advertising quota is rising, the national quota is gradually increasing, and the unemployment quota is decreasing. Of course I am surprised what the youth officer here, the Kantons-Zürich, says. You always have questions about integration, do you need integration in your everyday work? Yes, it is omnipresent, so there are these two, in everyday life it is still going on, it is not going to be integrated as this opposite A and B, together with C, so somehow, kebab pizza, so a model that you can imagine as a picture, but you still have certain expectations, what you then have to achieve. When you come in, you notice that you need a lot of time, the laws are there, but they have to be learned, and there are too few practice fields, so there is still this "I have an association, you come in and do that", but that you have to practice that, and that a society has a responsibility, so this is what keeps you going, this back-holding when you are allowed to be in Switzerland. So "practice, practice, practice", you say, Ivica Petrucic, how is this "practice, practice, practice" with you? Maybe I will just take a few steps back. If we now say that we want to be part of the whole, what integration means, the question is, does this whole "someone from below" really want to be part of it? We have to do it with an individualized society. I have also spoken to them now, and then, when you ask me now, I have to get used to it, I have started from the beginning, and that is maybe a bit... I have a habit, I am good enough, I have to try somewhere. Human words don't give me a state, not God, who has already been born into me, and that actually stops, because I go around, I was also a penitentiary of Prochelvetia, I go around and say, I don't need to integrate, the language is learning every two years to understand, I have to change completely now to be integrated. Yes, so we actually ended up in the dual migration regime. So today, it is important for the people from the EU to have access to the city, to go as far as possible, do not have to put all the proofs. At the Einbürgerung, there are still relatively high hears, and then you can also talk to the canton. But it is true that in addition to the efforts to integrate, which are also part of such a community, so also to encourage people to participate in the society, there is this selection effect, they have said that completely correctly, selection already at the access, and then also selection at the access to certain rights, and that is indeed the case with certain people, and especially the people who come from the second circle, as the situation is of course of people who are not yet born, and from the descendants of the former Yugoslavian state, and of course also many others, and of course also the people from the Masyl region, who are mainly confronted with these challenges. Thank you very much, Trakica Rajic. Thank you, Ibiza Petrušić. Thank you, Dennis Efjanej Mejda, for this conversation. That was Episode 4 of "Wir sind hier". "Wir sind hier" 50 years of Swiss migration background, encounters in new stations. A podcast for the 50th-year existence of the Eidgenössischen Migrations Commission, to be heard on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, and on the website www.ekm.admin.ch. A production of podcast lab in the course of the Eidgenössischen Migrations Commission. Thank you very much for watching. Please subscribe to the channel.