3x Olympian & Elite Coach: 10 Rules to Better Running After 40 (From 5K to Marathon)

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I think as you get older, no matter what, some high intensity should be there, because that degrades actually quite quickly, and yeah, I don't think it's actually probably super healthy for people in long-term and life to do tons of volume. I'm probably a bad person to say that, because I still run 60 miles a week every week. But I also do like a hard, something hard, because I enjoy to do it. But I actually think like maintaining your top level, like keep the engine strong is actually like probably really good for you overall in life, and so. Dayton, Ritzenheim, during your running career, you've experienced some of the most influential training systems in American distance running. That journey accumulated in you being a three-time Olympian and American record holder in a world championship medalist, now as head coach of the On Athletics Club, you're coaching some of the best runners in the world with a team that included eight Olympians representing more than half a dozen countries. I think it's fair to say that gives you a pretty unique perspective on what it takes to perform at the highest level, both as an athlete, and now as a coach yourself, working with these athletes across multiple distances up to the marathon. So let's start with this question, when you put all these experiences together, what do you believe are the fundamental things that help make a runner better? Yeah, thank you for having me. It's always fun to talk training and life journey, so I've been fortunate now, and I'm at a point in, you know, like at, I'm 43 years old, and I ran for a really long time until I was 37, and, you know, over that course of time from a really young, I mean, I was one of those runners who started as a really like a youth runner, you know, and so I trained a lot in a, in the early 90s, in like just tons of volume, but just crazy, no plan, real just intensity in most days. But then I was able to, you know, when I went to university, I, my first coach when they were in Mark Wetmore was super influential, he was a, he was a coach from the old Arthur Lydia, okay, philosophy, and he really, he adapted it into the NCAA, US system, you know, for timing, but, but he was a real Arthur disciple, and that was my first real foray into any kind of, you know, thought into training, I would talk to him, you know, he was the guy that, first time I would listen to anything that had anything to do with like physiology or anything like that, and so he was very influential to me, actually, and probably still that this day, my training, philosophies and systems is close, most, most closely aligned to his, probably, but I, after I turned professional in 2004, I had my coach Brad Hudson, my first coach, he was actually coached by Wetmore, as well when he was in high school, so, so there was a very interesting connection there, but Brad became a, a big disciple of Renato Canova's training, so I moved much more into a threshold base training methodology there for about five years, and we, you know, he, you know, Renato has some, you know, some other, you know, things that are unique to his training, the special blocks and things like that, nice, we experimented with all kinds of that stuff, really, super high volume, and, and then, and 2009, I switched to Alberto Salazar as my coach, and that was completely different training philosophy, as well, so he came out of the Ville Dillinger's, you know, methodology from the University of Oregon days, and so much more of a speed, you know, emphasis on hard, hard track sessions, but I still did a lot of volume, but never, probably never did a threshold work out again for five years, essentially, other than, I mean, I think I did, but they were just like really hard long runs, essentially, but, and then that was until about 2014, and then I was, I coached myself for about two or three years, I moved back to Michigan, I moved full time into the marathon, and kind of used a bit of my own philosophy, but coaching yourself is very difficult to do also, you're always second-guessing everything, there's a lot of time to think, and sometimes that's the, that's the enemy of the runner is thinking too much, so I was able to finish my last couple of years with the Hanson's Kevin, Keith and Kevin Hanson, and Michigan, and they, they sponsored me, and they had a, had a long standing businesses, and coaching has, has been a life passion on there, and so they, they had a big team, and really a methodology that looked, it was really founded in like working runners, honestly, I think hard, hard-nosed stuff from the 80s and 90s, people, when they, before I was really a lot of financial reward for being a pro runner, so they built their training methodology really on like the, kind of the working man, and so I, I was starting to coach at that point a little bit, and so it was a, it was a very long transition for me for our 16 years as a pro runner, and I think the biggest takeaway for me from that period of time from being a young budgeting, no nothing to an old beat-up runner was just still the consistency over time, and finding that is different for every athlete, and each one of those trainings, systems and methodologies have good and bad, and I take that into, you count when we train our team at the OMFX club, and I have a general, you know, theories and philosophy, but also at the end of the day, if you can't keep an athlete consistent, it really doesn't matter, and so it's not, I don't think there's a right training system or methodology for every runner, and I think that it's really finding that for yourself and finding that if you're coaching for the athlete is, that's, that's your number one job if you're the coach, so yeah, yeah, you gotta be consistent. When you reflect on your time with all those coaches, would there any key emphasis that each coach focus on? I think that you can bring to mind like, yeah, I think, uh, for example, for, for Mark, you know, at University of Colorado, he really, I mean, he hammered development over time, and I think that that's something that, uh, it's lost a little bit today, in today's day and age sometimes, like nowadays, it's very easy to, you see everything that's out there, it's very much a, you know, it's like the culture that we live in, right, you know, like everybody wants to do the thing that they see, but, uh, Mark didn't care at all about that. Like Mark was, I mean, he was, uh, he, you believed in what you were doing, and you did it, and you know, like that was the most important thing, and if you did that, you dedicated to it, and you believed it, and you were consistent with it, um, that, that was what, uh, that was the path to success, and I think that, you know, really big aerobic development was very big to him. So like a lot of mileage, I guess a lot of mileage over time, but he would say, you know, to me, like I came in running a lot as a 18-year-old, I was running, um, you know, 160K a week almost, you know, at that point, and he actually brought my volume down. He said, uh, you know, we're going to, uh, uh, we're going to come down to, I'm talking in case for, I figure most of your audience maybe is, is case, but he's like, well, actually we're almost on the other side of the US, so you can stay on that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So Miles, sorry, I was running up to 100 miles a week, you know, and, uh, and he brought it down to about 85 and he said, we're going to run 85 miles a week for 52 weeks a year instead of running 100 miles a week for 40 weeks out of the year. And so he believed in just doing it over and over and over again and building it throughout the year and whatever it looked like at the end of the year was really important. So, okay. So yearly mileage of a monthly mileage, a week of knowledge, and especially for athletes at that age, I think, because, um, you know, you're developing. I think as a younger athlete you're developing this aerobic foundation that basically you don't have yet you know like I have my own kids are you know like really good runners right now like some of the best runners the further age in the US and and they're super talented but I've seen you know like as they are training like the best thing you know like you're seeing these guys and they're just the raw still in their development aerobically and so I think Mark would identify that and say you know like I got 18 year old athletes and the easiest thing to do is throw a ton of mileage at them right away though and people will get a huge bump but that's not that's not the direct path that's that's steady and it's very easy to to miss the other parts of development so like everybody thought that Mark was all about the mileage but in reality now we ran fast like he had speed development days and they're like he he had every piece it's just like he always believed that aerobic development over time was important and so I still think that that's something that's one of the most important things and you know like as you get into an older at you know like as you age and you get further along in that development you can handle more but it takes more to see like huge jumps too so you just have to figure out a way to get incrementally better because when you're young you just it you should get better no matter what you're doing and but you have to be if you want to look five years down the line sometimes it's not flashy you know it's just little bits here and there so Mark would say yeah 85 miles a week for 52 weeks out here in the next year 90 miles a week you know like and it was it was steady like that and yeah so he he he was really I don't know for for me that's still something that's very foundational I think even when we bring in new athletes into our team is like they have to be consistent you know like very consistent focus than anything epic yeah okay yeah and and that's not fun and it's flashy you know that's and that's the reality is you know people want to see these used jumps and you can change a training system or methodology and see some big jumps but it ultimately like it has to be sustainable growth and so Mark was huge in that okay what about bread bread and then Brad like you know he he got me at a point in my career then where I was still developing aerobically for sure but but capable of a lot and I think we started to go into a more specific mindset I guess and it was I think it was a little too early in my career we started to focus on some marathons longer you know like longer events that was it was just too early I was like 21 22 years old and I wanted to do those things and but I still had a lot of time to develop and and I think I probably I got I really developed my threshold extremely high at that point but I think overall I had a lot of structural things that I needed to continue to improve in my body and so I enjoyed the training I really liked that kind of training and because I was really good at it and I think whenever you're really good at something it's it's easy to like it yeah exactly and but you know one of the things that he did well though is that I think you you still worked on your strengths a lot and I think a lot of people want to focus so much on the weaknesses and I think he saw that in me I was really strong at those things and so I think he he still believed in you know generating power and things like that and you know we did a lot of the short hill sprints and stuff like that but but I think we started to push into like extreme long runs which I think nowadays it's a little easier to do you know like some athletes with the footwear technology and stuff it's easier to do that kind of training but I mean I was doing some long long hard stuff that you know I think I was just probably should just kept developing on the track for a little bit longer and if like if that's one thing I would go back and do I don't necessarily think that was Brad's fault though I was very brash and you know like excited to do it and I probably needed a stronger hand you know like as a from a coaching standpoint to say this is what we're gonna do and and so so yeah when I I switched it in 2009 and went to Alberta and he was much stronger hands probably too strong at some points okay but but we actually kind of like it was like a reverse a little bit like we went back and tried to develop some of the things that I think I should have been developing more in my early 20s and I found it difficult honestly like I would have success but it was like I that that period of those first those 10 years of my career as a pro it was like the things that helped that Alberta or Brad they almost needed to be flipped you know and I think Mark would have wanted me and to do that you know like that would have been Mark's you know like if I was to go back and say I wish that I would have done something different that's what Mark would have wanted me to do okay and so uh yeah I had this success but it was kind of despite myself you know like in a lot of ways and and so it sounds very extreme between bread and albatou very extreme and it was the opposite of what that that I started was Mark that consistency was everything and I had probably I had such a long career but very inconsistent and so that was where I think you know like I in the script went off track you know and yeah um and you only see those things if you go through them you know and uh and I try to take that and remember those things with the athletes that I coach now because by the time I got to working with Kevin and Keith I mean I was kind of old and you know like I were keeping a like a rusty ship together kind of trying to get to the trying to get to the shore you know and um and I still had you know the day I still had a good engine and all that but uh it was not the track of consistency that I would preach now and that we started when I was a really young athlete okay well Keith and hence uh Kevin has this thing about at least for the marathon side of things where to focus on building fatigue throughout the week then on a big long run how did that work for you um I I think um I think that that's actually really good it's a consistent approach um I think it works really good especially for athletes that are you know that work that are you know full-time because every one of those efforts is so extreme now I think with pro pro runners that are like the top level um athletes you got to create a huge stimulus for them to adapt and so that's where I think that um like with our marathoners I think it's it's important uh to get that but I mean if you can stay healthy and do it like it's actually really good I mean Helen O'Berry trains much like that like she runs at a level where her her long runs she can handle like a really big long uh training uh training around like 24 25 miles that very close within 5% 3% of a marathon pace almost okay um in the middle of a 120 mile training week and her easier days are still run at uh six to six 30 per mile for 20k in the morning and 10k at night and you know like so she's able to do that but um but you have to have the time so in the you know the energy and the um discipline to recover in a way that you can do that and that's not easy on the body so I don't think your average person can do that well so yeah yeah so the Hanson's methodology is really good I think for that because it allows people to go to work to have a you know like a and their their pros train a little harder are a little different you know still like in some ways too because you they're capable to do more but even the pros they they've created a really good program for athletes to continue to train and they work in the store sometimes still so like they they have adapted it in a way that um that's unique to them as well okay the actions on the court and as the official be your sponsor of 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Ready to make anything online make sense? Check responses set up require compatibility and availability, very 18 plus. So despite having, you know, different emphasis and coaching philosophies, what would a certain principles and fundamentals that were constant across all the coaches that you've trained with? Well, I think everybody wants to be consistent. And so that was probably something that we always would say. And so trying to get there differently is, you know, like for each athlete is different. So I think what each one of those coaches did is they did. They were very good at, like, whoever the athlete is in front of them. You know, it doesn't matter what their training partner is or someone else. It's like, and if you're in this profession of coaching, that's like, it's really dealing with people. You know, like, and understanding each person's, you know, maybe unique physiology, but also like their psychology is very important. I mean, some athletes need, like, I have athletes that like yard and a goose. I, he'll do exactly what I tell him, not a mile more, not a mile less. I don't need to worry, like, so easy. Whereas I'll have other athletes, I will name them. They'll, they'll text me every day in the morning. I'll have, you know, like, we'll be like, they'll think the way too much. You know, like, and so I think, but, you know, like, knowing what their athletes like and giving them space to figure out, like, they still need to be themselves. And like, you can't just say don't think so much. That doesn't work. That's total, that's total BS. You know, like, because the athlete is not going to do like that, that's just, that's just hollow words. So if you know that athletes like that, you have to, you have to coach to how that athlete is. And, and that also really remembering even like the easiest ones, the yards of the world, the Ky Robinson. So they're, they're like, they are very independent, self-sufficient. We'll do what you tell them, but don't forget about them either. You know, that's important. Like, you can take that for granted. And so I think every person needs to have the sounding board. Every person needs to be listened to. And so those coaches were very good at the, the one on one with the athlete. And I think that that's something that I try to take with me to my team, my group, the athletes that I coaches. Try to have a bit of a relationship in a one on one with you two on one. You mentioned that mark what most philosophy of coaching is what you kind of carried over a lot to your style of coaching. But if you were to look at all those coaches, would there other principles and fundamentals that now form the core of your coaching philosophy? And would there, or other principles that you've developed yourself that you've kind of built into the data and written hiring method? Yeah, I think, for sure, my, I would say, Mark's general approach. It's probably the closest, but it, there's a lot more emphasis on like back than he, also in Arthur Lidier's training methodology was heavily periodized, right? So where you, you move from one phase each season and we don't do that anymore. I think that that's definitely something that we've kind of figured out. You can adapt and change over time now. And so you're just moving the emphasis of where you're putting your energy nowadays. So I think we probably have a lot, we don't have these big periods of time where we just remove one training stimulus, we just class in the load of that. And so maybe it's, you know, like early in the year, we want to develop, you know, really huge foundation, a lot of threshold work. Well, that never goes away in our training system. It just de-emphasizes at one point. We start, but we start like early on with, you know, like a staple of the old organ system was 200s and hills and we bring that in early on. Eventually, it kind of lessens or goes away a little bit. And so each part of our training system will ebb and flow. And we do a really good job of our athletes are usually always ready in September and they'll run pretty good in January. And you know, like I think we, we do a good job of not destroying them enough throughout the year either where they recover very fast. So I think that's probably one of the biggest differences with smart training. And a lot of that does come from a heavy emphasis on having a higher volume of threshold throughout the year, I think is important, but definitely we don't train in a big Norwegian methodology of double threshold, you know, twice, or even three times a week either. We do have some days like that in there, but it's not the revolving, you know, every every week schedule either. So, so I think that that's probably a big difference as well. And, but I think we run fast early and we run fast often. And I do believe in having a small amount of like harder VO2 works most of the year, maybe not like early early in the year, but once they're up to 12 training, we will touch it a little bit and then it will get a little greater at certain periods. And so we definitely have a more of like a shifting paradigm system, I think. And yeah, it's, it's definitely, there's workouts in there that are from stolen from every one of those coaches and they create a stimulus that we want for that time. And then we tweak them or we change them, but there's not a whole lot of unique words to see there. But yeah, I was also crying me from wrong, but what I understand is it sounds like there's intensity, speed, and strength across the whole year is just that at certain points of the year, the specificity is going to change towards being getting the athletes ready for the race. And the not so specific elements, like if it's like speed and strength would still be in the program, but it's just that to maintain that stimulus and not to build that adaption for that. If you're using your sports wash or a generic formula to calculate your zone two, there's a very good chance that you're not training in your true zone two. And that's not because they are intentionally doing anything wrong. They simply don't know your individual physiology. So they estimate your training zones using population-based formulas. The problem is that if your zone two is estimated incorrectly, you can spend months or even years training in the wrong zone without ever realizing it. And that's a much bigger deal than most runners think. Zone two isn't an arbitrary heart rate. It's your own individual physiological tipping point where your body reaches its highest rate of fat oxidation before it starts relying heavily on carbohydrates. That point is different for every runner. And it also changes as you get fitter. So no generic formula can tell you exactly where it is. Which means if you're training from estimated zones derived from formulas, there's a good chance you're not training the energy system you think you are. Below your true zone two, your body adapts to become better at budding fat. Building the aerobic base that supports everything from endurance to speed. Drift just above it, and now you're training your body to rely more heavily on carbohydrates instead. That's not a bad thing, but it's a completely different adaption and not the one you're aiming for. For years, I've used heart rate to measure training intensity, but heart rate is influenced by things like heat, hydration, caffeine, sleep, and fatigue, just to name a few. Then I thought lactate was a ghost standard until I realized that lactate also changes depending on glycogen availability in your nutritional state, making it just as inconsistent as heart rate. That got me thinking that your breathing is one of the closest reflections of what's actually happening metabolically, because it's driven by your body's physiological response and not easily influenced by those external factors. As exercise intensity increases, your muscles gradually shift from burning more fat to burning more carbohydrates, which produces more carbon dioxide that your body has to remove by increasing your breathing. That change in ventilation happens at your own individual physiological thresholds and not at a generic percentage of your maximum heart rate. That's why learning about divider pro from time where I was such a breakthrough for me. Instead of estimating training zones from generic formulas or indirect markers, imagines your breathing in real time to identify your own individual physiological thresholds that are not influenced by external factors. If you're serious about building your aerobic base, improving endurance, and making sure that every zone to run is actually doing what it's supposed to do, I think is well worth looking into. Timeway is giving listeners of the endurance lab podcasts $100 of their pro training membership when you use my link in the description with my code elabtw26. And if you'd like to understand the signs behind it all, check out my full conversation with Timeway founder Anar Larasan also linked in the description below. Yes, we train in a. I would consider it a well-rounded training program. And that's something that I believe a lot in is continued to develop all the pieces. And I think if you get rid of them, like something always gives no matter what. And so you can only do. there's still a finite amount of energy even with starting to train with more fuel and with better shoes and all the. like there's still a limit to what people can do. And so if you're not at least keeping that whatever that thing is close, so if it's speed, if you're not keeping it close, it gets really far away. And eventually it gets really hard to do. And it gets dangerous to do. And so a lot of it is to continue to, like if we don't bring our training down super low and volume either, so it's not super hard to get back to high volume. You know, like I think that that's important and we can track some of these things, but other things it's just like having the, you can like for me on with athletes every day, I see how they're feeling, you know their moods and like that's the, that's, I mean I'm fortunate to be able to do that, you know, not everybody can do that, you know, but I think that that's very important to continue to have, yeah, be able to touch all the things. You have to, and if you don't do that, they get far away. And how long can you do it when they're really far away? If you're missing a huge component, something that's very important, how long are you gonna be able to get better? 'Cause you have to be able to get better every year. Until, you know, I will talk later about older runners, but eventually you're not gonna get better. But, but, you have to be able to improve, you have to be able to do all those things and if they get really far away, it's just hard to do. - Okay, so consistent volume throughout the year, just the differences in intensity changes a little bit, but always maintaining the high intensity across the year at some point in the week. Okay, the phrase you can't do the short fix, you have to do the long fix, has been kind of used to describe your philosophy as a coach. Can you break that down, what then beams? - Yeah, so, we run into problems all the time. People get injured, people get sick. You, you're gonna start training well, be maybe there's some psychological stress at home, whatever it is, but you have to identify it. And I think if you know that there's a problem, you have to, you have to actually fix it. And you have to actually address it. So, like, a lot of times it's like, we still try to get the athletes to do the maximum amount of volume that they can do, for example, while still getting better every year and staying healthy. Well, that's easier for some than others, you know, like, we've got, you know, some athletes that can easily run every week, 100 plus miles a week. And other athletes that, you know, like, they are not able to do that. They're not, they're not durable enough to do that. And what's still trying to get on there is important. And so, you know, for example, George Beamish came to us in 2020. He ran four days a week. Only ran 40 miles a week and was never healthy for more than 12 weeks at a time throughout college, really. Never ran two seasons in a row. And so, like, yeah, he could do it. He could win short, you know, these kicking races and, you know, like, but ultimately, like, to be the best, you're still gonna, you can't do that on 40 miles a week. It doesn't matter who you are. Like, we have to at least get closer. And so, you know, like, what the fix? Well, it's being able to run more than four days a week because the big sessions are hard. And so, you have to come up with a plan with how you're gonna get there. And sometimes it takes a long time. And I think you can kind of shortcut it, maybe, by maybe you have an athlete. They can't do a whole lot. Well, you just give them a bunch of double threshold. But they're also gonna get a huge aerobic stimulus. But that's still a huge, like, mechanical stimulus, you know? So, like, how are you gonna bridge that gap? Eventually, you have to be able to do it. So, I think that that's like what we always look towards doing is saying whatever your problem, whatever your deficit is, like, we gotta try to get there. And so, yeah, we have other athletes who, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's in the gym. They have a long-standing kind of chronic injury as well. We can't avoid it because you still have to be at your best. And so, if you have, like, a planner, maybe a Achilles or an ACA's pubis, whatever it is, like, these chronic things that you can kind of train on and stuff, you still have to continue to work on those because it's not enough to just have one or two seasons. Like, anybody can be good for one or two seasons. And so, can you be good for, I mean, at the pro level, five, six, seven years, like, that's hard to do, you know? Like, I had a 16 year pro career and I never fixed the things that I never took along fixed, you know? Like, I never, I always just went from one to the next. And so, that's why I say I was, earlier, I said I was good despite myself. Well, it's because most of the time, I was never more than six, eight, nine months from the previous injury. And I really don't think you can be, you can even know what your best is gonna be until you're like a whole year of healthy fitness. Like, without that, like, you can't even really build the next thing without a whole year. And so, like, the people, like, the guys to do double threshold, I was like, you gotta be healthy for a year, but doing just regular, good, longer single threshold before we could even consider that kind of stuff. And so, I think that that's where it's hard to do that with young athletes because everybody's excited and motivated and it's hard to do it with older athletes because they're getting their ways, setting their ways. And I mean, the athletes that tell you, well, I know in my body, well, that's always a hard method, and thing to break out of someone's mind 'cause they believe that they know it. And even if you can see from the outside that there's something that they need differently. And so, not saying, you don't listen to them, but, like, you have to be able to, you have to be able to look past like the next season, I think. I think you gotta look to the next season after that. And I think for, even for recreational runners, it's like, you know, like, you have to be able to take some of that, that, you know, like, psychology of. - The long row ahead. - You know, like, it's hard. - Yeah, and it's hard to do. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - The action's on the court. And as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Mikalova Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win court side seats, merch, and more. Visit Mikalovaultra.com/courtside to enter. Mikalova Ultra Courtside, 26 to 27. No purchase necessary, open to US residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026, and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at Mikalovaultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. - And with George, was it four years later when he really came around and medaled? - Yeah, he came. - Was it in a tight hole? - It took us, yeah, four years before he won his first world title, I guess, and he came, and it wasn't smooth sailing. I mean, the first year he came in at, like I say, 2020 at two broken legs, and I think he had two, at least one major injury that year, that next year, and then the next year to that, we had like, but we just inched our way up from 40 to 60 to 70 to 85, which probably, and even up to 100, and then we found the limit, and then he was, he had an injury, you know, like again, the next year and 20, you know, he won his world title as first one indoors and 24, and he was injured at the Olympics in 24 outdoors in the summer, and so, like, you're, you do the best you can, and yeah, he's won two world titles, and I'll kind of like it, there's nothing's been, but successful for him, but it hasn't been an easy, long, you know, like road, it's just, it's been a long, consistent, you know, ready to get better, and yeah, and, you know, like you, but if you can get better for six years like that, that's, that should be your goal, too. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I appreciate that athletes who coach are at the elite level, but if you were to coach competitive master's runners in their 40s to 60s, be someone that wants to podium at their local race or qualify for Boston in their age group, right? Which of your coaching philosophies or fundamentals will remain the same for this avatar of athlete, and if you will change any, what will you change? - Well, definitely, I think some of the Hanson's methodology is important, you know, maybe having more of that cumulative over the week stuff, and I actually, like, I don't train for anything specifically now, myself, but I probably train, I do a lot, like something every day, almost, like I, I was telling my wife earlier this week that there's this, you know, like the, you know, the Norwegian singles methodology, you know, like, I probably accidentally train more like that. I said, it sounds like a, it sounds like a, like a funny dating website, Norwegian singles, or something like that, but, like, the training methodology of running semi-hard multi, like four days a week, that's kind of how I run now, because I run and I'll jump in with Howland to do a workout and I'll jump in with just set to do a workout and then I run on my own and I don't do like long slow running. I just run like a moderate four to five days and I'm probably the healthiest honestly. I've ever been, I probably could run, I gotta find a race, I could run under 15 minutes, I'm sure it's still now. And so it actually works pretty good for like a busy person. I train, you know, like I train in my life, you know, like like a lot of recreational runners. I don't, I actually don't even usually have a plan. I get out the door and I'm like, well, if I feel good, I'm gonna run decently hard. And if I feel bad, I'm gonna run easy. And I think that that's actually like, that's a skill that maybe, I don't know, it's 'cause I don't have anything on the line now. I don't know if it's easier for me, like it's not the end of the world if I don't do a workout. So I think that probably taking that mindset is probably important to people where it's like, you have to fit it into your life and I'm not gonna go and hammer a hard workout because I sat on the bike for 20 miles with the guys this morning. You know, like, so if I get a chance and like yesterday, I, I, Helen had a hard workout and the pace there wasn't there. And I said, I prepared for it for two days, but that was the first time I, I prepared for anything in a while, you know? And, and so I think you have to be able to fit the training into your life that makes sense. And I did use to coach like online some people before I started the OAC. And that was always what we would do is I did, I thought that people couldn't handle, like the steam rigorous frequency that like an elite runner could do, right? So, and I started training like that even towards the end 'cause I, I had a family and I was kind of, I was coaching some people like part-time and so training more like harder, twice a week like that worked well was good. And I think that that's probably something that like a, personally, if I had like a normal job or a family, you could probably get a one good session on like a Wednesday and then one on a Saturday or Sunday, but loading up your Sunday and Sunday was big sessions so that you're exhausted. Like, probably if you have a family is not the best, you know? Like, and if you're sitting in an office, you know, like, and you gotta get up at 4 a.m., or you really wanna do that two or three days a week during the weekday, that's a big ask. And maybe it works for a short period, but in the long, for the long-term long-fix, I think having consistent twice a week or the Norwegian singles type methodology like when I do is moderately hard four days a week is pretty good too. So like doing one of those is probably better than training like an elite runner. - Yeah, sounds, sounds correct, sounds good. (laughing) Okay, we've really experienced that right now you don't coach any recreational mid-life runners, but I'm sure you see memes and posts all of us social media about how does a group of runners tend to train, right? When you look at that, what do you see as some common mistakes we are making that elite runners would almost never make? - I mean, I don't know how much people actually do this, but like, you know, measuring things and stuff like that, you know, like that's a huge wearable set of a fad right now, wearables and things like that. Yeah, you're better off wearing a heart rate monitor than taking your own lactate. In my opinion, like that sounds miserable to be like a recreational runner, having your kid and having to do all this stuff. Like, just, you know, get a baseline with your heart rate monitor, do that, you know? Like, probably go off-feel like I do. Like I say, I go out, if I feel good, I run hard, if I don't, you know, like usually your body is telling you something and probably like we can, we interpret a lot because it's our job, you know, is for our runners and we say, okay, well, you're tired, but it's okay because we have this session on that. Like, well, if you're tired doing a workout, like sometimes you should be tired, but also like it's probably telling you something. And so like there's times, you just have to have a plan and a limit too. Like you don't just go out and blast 20 miles because you feel great that day and then you're wrecked for the next two weeks. And so, and that's where when I was an athlete, like trying to coach myself was hard because you're second guessing everything. So having some kind of sounding board is probably important. Maybe it's not just the like our physio. He's a good runner. He's like a two 19 marathoner and you know, he runs 100 plus miles a week and but he's like, I'm a hobby Jagger, I work on the athletes, you know, like and so he's like, I it's okay if I have a bad workout, like it's not the end of the day. So he just has, he just works with the AI, the chat GPT or whatever and if he doesn't do it, he says, oh, well, there's no coach that told me that it was, you know, that I don't have to feel bad about it, you know, but I think so having some kind of plan or sounding board is good but also like I wouldn't, it sounds, unless you do that kind of person that just loves to get on a treadmill and take your blood lactate and stuff, like I think just go buy some feels and adjust afterwards. - Don't get me to be serious on that. - Yeah, don't get so serious. That doesn't sound like fun for the long term to me. Like Ronnie's still supposed to be fun. - Yeah, he's supposed to enjoy it, right? And not just tall blood all the time. - Yeah, exactly. - I want to invite you to become one of the founding members of the endurance lab inner circle. I've created the inner circle to give you a way to help shape the conversations I have on this podcast. Before I record with the new guest, I'll let you know who I'm speaking with and what we're planning to explore. So you can send me the questions that you want me to ask. You can also tell me what topics you would like to see explored on future episodes. Now, I'm starting this completely from scratch. So if you're one of the first few people to join, I'll be able to follow your questions and ideas very closely. And while we're still a small group, I'll be in there with you, reading the conversations, replying where I can and getting to know what you actually want me to explore on the podcast. It's completely free and we're hosting the inner circle on Telegram. So if you'd like to be one of the founding members, you'll find the link in the show notes below. Click the link, tap join and I'll see you on the inside. You alluded to this is a bit earlier, but the point on volume versus intensity. So I feel that training volume becomes very individual for someone like you said, navigating a full-time job, kids, aging parents and all the other stresses that come with mid-life, right? If volume has to be sacrificed because of time constraints or just simply a lack of physical durability, should high intensity well then become more of a priority in your opinion? - I think as you get older no matter what, some high intensity should be there because it becomes, I think that degrades actually quite quickly. And yeah, I don't think it's actually probably super healthy for people in long-term in life to do tons of volume. Like I'm probably a bad person to say that because I still run 60 miles a week every week. So maybe that's not, maybe I'm definitely not preaching what I do, but in reality, but I also do something hard with Helen or Josette or Alicia or someone like with my women especially because I enjoy to do it. But I actually think maintaining your top level, like the ability, your really top ends, your keep the engine strong is actually like probably really good for you overall in life. And so, and it doesn't, you don't have to do like a lot, you know, like it can just be like every once in a while. Like what we do is like you're always touching something, it's not far away, it just maybe you can't do and you shouldn't do what you used to do. But you, you should still try to do something like it, you know, like I think that's probably important. And so, I think training intensity will bridge the gap when you can't do a whole lot. So like if you're like really busy in life, say you have a month where you're so much to do at work or the kids have a lot of, you know, a lot of events and you're traveling, you're like there's no way I'm gonna run, you know, like a moderate amount. Yeah, the moderate amount that I need for my spring marathon. Yeah. Well, probably doing once a week, something hard is gonna buffer that month where you can't do a whole lot of volume. And so, I think even with our marathoners, when they come down from the marathon, they do their marathon, they put in a lot of large volume specific work, they might run 130 miles a week. Well, you know, for the couple of months afterwards, we definitely still do more intensity, like the volume is a lot lower, but we try to keep the engine pretty strong so that then when we do get the chance to go back and we train in the marathon block, you do, it's easy to get to. And so, I think that that's probably something that almost anybody can take for it is like, if you're really busy in life, have an intense workout. Yeah, and it'll be easy to follow the volume when you need. and when you have the time, but if you just let the intensity get away, it gets away fast. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. On the flip side of that, there is this notion that our recovery capacity decreases as we age, right? I'm not sure whether you're feeling it yet, but I'm 48 and I certainly feel it, but I also believe that each mid-life run has ability to recover after hard sessions, can be quite individual. Would you offer any general guideline for the recovery period between hard sessions, for example, let's say two days between each hard session, or do you feel it's better for the athlete to just access their recovery status daily and adjust their training based on that? I think that, yes, you're right, recovery capacity is highly individual, even in good, younger athletes, but I think for people as they age, it's definitely going to get worse, no matter what. You're definitely going to recover worse. It's physiology. As a man, your testosterone levels will continue to drop, your capacity for maintaining muscle and regenerating muscle is going to be very, very limited compared to when you were young. Women will see it, you know, more, you know, like a little later probably, but still it happens, you know, and it'll fluctuate more from, you know, week to week than it will for men. And so like, I think you have to, you know, like, you have to realize that you're at a limit and it's going to get worse. And yeah, a certain point, you're never going to be arguing. And for me as a pro runner, that actually got to, that was a point where I, I had like a mental shift and it was like, it was hard for me to, to want to continue to train when I didn't think I was going to ever be better than I was before. But that doesn't mean you can't, like, if you enjoy it, like, your, you can't, be made, your, the times might not be better, but your enjoyment of it might be better. Like, now I, like I say, I am, I've been the most healthy in the last four years now that I ever was as a pro runner. And I enjoy it more and I run hard more often, but, you know, like, I don't run hard hard like I did all the time, you know? And I think that that's probably, I know that if I feel bad, I, well, not run is hard. And if I feel good, I'll run hard or, and I think that that's probably something that you get with time and age and wisdom, but, but always having like, like my job holds me back from overdoing it. And if you are not, if you don't have those things, like a job or a, or a family obligation to hold you back, probably it's good to have a coach to hold you back a little bit too. The actions on the court and as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Mikalova Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win court side seats, merch, and more. Visit Mikalova Ultra.com/courtside to enter. Mikalova Ultra Courtside 26 to 27, no purchase necessary, open to US residents 21 plus, begins on October 1, 2026 and ends on June 30, 2027, multiple entry periods. See official rules at Mikalova Ultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Yeah. Let's talk a bit about speed. So you kind of spoke about this a bit earlier, but how much would you emphasize speed look for the aging runner? Probably not real top end speed too much. I think it's a little dangerous, but I think you get close, right? So maybe it's not even real speed actually, like, you know, like, like strides is probably one of the best things you could do. I would say strides and like short hill strides, but not like I wouldn't spike up. Unless your goal is to run like a race in spikes, I would probably be like, let's do just you're like, you got to like if we were like pro runners when we try to develop speed. I mean, they are like we're talking about like maximal efforts almost, you know, like and your spiked up doing, you know, 30s and 60s, you know, like at the track. Well, I don't know that I would do that like for time constraint and for risk, you know, for a older runner, but I think you can definitely do strides, which might not be true speed, but like efficiency. And like as you get old, like a lot older. And so like even for myself, I went the other day to the track and I did eight times a hundred meter strides and for hills, you know, like, and that's not like true speed speed, but it's like a mechanical efficiency. And and I think that that's probably actually really important as you get older. I think that that allows you to handle then to semi hard work out. It's good. And yeah, if you're get to be like in your 40s, like I'm you I'm a little younger than you, but probably with a lot of miles on the body. So I say why I'm just trying to delay my how much I get worse, you know, by doing stuff like that. And and I think that that's probably okay. And you have to be alright with that. You're not going to get better in your 40s. You're not like it's just you're just going to get worse at a slower rate. You know, like if you do unless you start only in your 40s, then there's two probably a code that you started in your 40s. You're probably going to get better for a few years. But even then yeah, you're you're you're you're trying to delay your decline. And that's okay. And be alright with that, you know, like we don't stay young forever. So enjoy it and feel good doing it. That would be my advice. How would you differentiate strides versus like a pure speed workout, all speed specific workout? Yeah. Like if you're really trying to build speed like pure speed, yeah, your your maximal rest and nearly maximal efforts for very short periods. I mean, we're talking about like five to 10 seconds even, you know, like versus like strides. I mean, thinking 15 to 20 seconds and at a capacity that, you know, like is, you know, closer to 800 meter, you know, to 18 hundred meter pace that that and that's like an efficiency probably for that period of time, whereas like real speed is like you're trying. Yeah, like you got to go for it. Yeah, you're sprinting. And I mean, you gotta be really warmed up. You gotta be like in a state that's ready to handle it. You can't be super fatigued even for our athletes. We try like it's hard because you're doing a lot of volume. But even for that, like we we are a high volume training program. And so even with that, like, like we try to develop speed, but like we're not a speed based program either. So like, so I think, you know, like you have to you have to know what your limiters are. And if your limiter is that you're going to do a really big session and you prioritize that session beforehand, and there's more fatigue that you're going to get less out of that speed development. And so, so being knowing what you're trying to accomplish is important. And if you're a master's runner that really wants to prioritize that and wants to run a fast 800 or a 1500 or something like that, then yeah, you're going to have to do that kind of stuff. And but yeah, just knowing that there's a risk with it, I think, is important too. And so that's yeah, you're always weighing risks. I mean, that's coaching and it's of your coaching yourself even. You're like, you're weighing what the risk is and you're making a decision based on what you think you're going to get the most out of. Do you feel that for a marathon runner, if they have, if they are able to increase their absolute speed in the short distance, do you think that trickles down to them actually running a fast marathon in the marathon? I don't think so. Okay. I mean, I'm not not in a measurable amount. I think that you're okay. I just don't maybe in this time between marathons, maybe there could be some. I think of the marathon so about efficiency that you're not going to see it in the like the over the course of that duration. Probably on the track, you know, 5k and that kind of stuff for sure. But marathon is just I just don't see it. I don't know. Okay. I'll have to see some evidence that makes me think that people in the long term are getting that kind of from going to the really developing speed. Okay. What about threshold tempo? How much weight would you put on that for the marathon? In general, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a really good training stimulus for people who that's why I like I train in that like zone a lot where I'm like. But not double thresholds. I don't do that. You know, like I don't think it's good for like double thresholds for like it's good for like people who are trying to train a lot. Like a ton, you know, like in group business. Yeah, I mean, pro runners, like some of our guys will do it, you know, like, but you got it, like that's a lot of training, you know, like, and I think that you, you're, you know, like go out and do a big hard long run on the weekends for your average, like definitely for a person training for like a midlife person training from a marathon. Like a lot of it's about like, you know, fit to eat in your body and getting used to, you know, like that kind of stuff, you have to do that. And I mean, double threshold, you can do that. But it's like a, it's a big time commitment. And I think that, I don't know, for double, for double threshold for like masters runners doesn't seem like the best to me. Like, I don't know. I, I, I think you're going to, you, you're going to miss something. And it's probably, yeah, like, yeah, just, I think just, I, I think trained twice a day, twice a week at a bigger, bigger session in the morning, you know, like a, before work on a Wednesday and a Saturday or something like that. I think that this better. Yeah, just just to clarify, to you, threshold would be faster than marathon pace, right? Because I've speak with some people that, to them, threshold is slower than marathon pace, which kind of confused me a little bit. But I've always related threshold to kind of like 10K pace. I would say, you know, like, I mean, if you want to, if we're going to be really specific and you, like most people aren't going to go to the lab and find their LT1 and LT2. LT2, yeah. Yeah, but I mean, I would say LT2 is, you know, like, there's going to be more like your threshold. And that's how we'll think about it for like, if we're going to do double threshold or something like that for our athletes or a big session, it's more like that. Whereas, like, some people might call it sub threshold, you know, like as like an LT1, you know, like, almost, you know, like below that level or right up to that level. It's closer to like a marathon probably. So, but every person is different, you know, like, honestly, too, like, your fatigue rates higher, you know, like, I think that you had to build a capacity to do whatever it is. And so just because your threshold, say your threshold is for, you know, like one of our top guys of threshold is 430 per mile. Well, that doesn't automatically mean they're going to run 59 minutes for half marathon because, you know, like, that doesn't, it doesn't equate. There's like a, there's a durability and a fatigue factor that comes into play. So that doesn't, yeah, yeah, like that's, that's where I think people get confused a little bit. And like threshold is not, it's like a, it's a state and where you're at at the moment, right? So like, at that moment, you're at that threshold. But like, eventually, you're going to, there'll be some drifts. If you, if the fatigue goes on long enough and stuff. So, you know, like if you're measuring things, yeah, you, you could probably infinitely do that. You're just going to be changing the duration of your interval and stuff like that and your recovery. But, but yeah, it, it will change based on so many variables too, right? So like, that's why even like if we, if we were to say, we want you to do 10 times a mile at threshold, you know, and it's done on a treadmill and you can keep things completely consistent and you can, you can keep taking the rest you need. Yeah, you might be able to do that. But is that going to accomplish what you really need? I mean, maybe, like you can get a lot of time at that, that level, but that doesn't mean that you could race at that level either. So, yeah. So that's just where I think that there's maybe a misconception, you know, with a lot of people on, on what it is. And even if you're trying to train in the methodology, like a Norwegian methodology of, you know, like the Ingerbringsons or, you know, like many people train, like, you're just trying to create a response that you can train again the next time and trying to adapt. And that doesn't mean that they're using it as like even a race specific, you know, like efforts. It's like a, it's a support, you know, to build your capacity, really. Um, so I think that that's where maybe from your average person, there's like a little bit of a misconception. Okay. Cross-training, would you recommend cross-training for a runner, for a midlife runner that's taking 10 to 12 hours a week for training, but like the muscular skeletal durability for that amount of running volume, do you think cross-training could be something useful for this athlete? Definitely to, it could be. Um, I think some events aren't going to, uh, benefit it from the same way. Like, uh, like the marathon, I don't think it's very, probably very useful because the marathon's a lot about like mechanical load, too, over time. And you have to be ready for that. And so like if you do a threshold workout on the bike, while you, it might be like good, you know, like for like a shorter, shorter distance races and stuff, like, I think that's probably a good stimulus, but for the marathon, I don't think it would do a whole lot. Um, so, um, never is, well, I shouldn't say never is exercise bad for you, but exercise is probably, you know, like it is probably mostly good for you, um, as long as you're recovering and fueling and stuff. So, uh, so I think it would help, you know, a lot of people, but it's not the kind of stimulus that's going to replace running either and, uh, for the long term, but you know, like we do it for people who are injured because you got to maintain something and what are you missing? Well, you're missing the mechanical load of eccentric, you know, running and stuff. Well, that will come back later as well. So, uh, but it's a, it's a tool. And so if you're, if you can't train a lot because you're, you're injured often, um, you still have to maximize the running in some way, I think. And so if, if you're like, I just can't stay healthy at more than 40 miles a week, I, I should probably cross train, you know, like three or four hours a week to get. Well, it's probably good if you are trying to bridge the gap to do it more running, but really, I still think you have to maximize the amount of running that you can do first. Like, like, you have to, or you have to be like, how can I stay healthy? Like, and then you got to be able to figure out how to do more running. Just like George Vivas, we had to figure out how to do more running and more running. And it takes a long time and maybe if you're really, really prone to injury, it might take you a really long time. And you might always have like a limit that you can do, but you should try to get closer towards the limit of it versus just doing more cross training. I think if you're just like, I'll, I'll just run like 20 or 30 miles a week. And I'll do 10 hours across training. I don't think that that's the way to get better, you know, like either running as a runner. Yeah, you might get very good at cross training. Yeah, yeah, they don't, unless you, unless you want to, unless you want to do cross training competitions, then they, they, they, then great. But otherwise, if you want to be a good runner, you have to figure out how to do more running and get better and stay consistent. And I just think that cross training can be a tool to add in. But yeah, like nobody fell in love with cross training usually. Like, we're, we love running. We're all runners, you know, like, and I, I tell that's a people all the time. I say, you know, they're, when they're, they want to get back to running because they had an injury or something. And I was like, I know nobody fell in love with cross training. It's a tool we're using right now, you know, and long term, I think that that's something to think about. Yeah. Well, a lot of runners also not in love with strength training. But I guess that's also important. So how would you build that into a weekly training plan? You know, would you prioritize it to the off season or would you build it in to the whole season? You know, how would you work that in to a plan? I, I, I think cross or strength training is more important in cross training for a healthy person. Try to fall in love with it. Try, try to at least tolerate it better. I think. And it doesn't have to be a lot, but, you know, like, bodies, like we get so good at running, like in one line and, you know, like, you know, you neglect the rest of the body and like, like if we're going to go do marathon running, you know, like, and, or, like, it's a lot of volume. Sometimes that's not the most healthy thing. First one, right? So like, like, like, it's, it is healthy. But also it's like a, we're, we're really going hard into something. Like you got to work on your body to your structure. You're, you know, like, all the coaches tell you the chassis got to be strong. You know, like the engine gets, you know, gets good quick. But, you know, the chassis has to be strong, right? So, well, that means you got to be in the gym. You got to do, you have to have some kind of well-rounded stuff to keep the body. Moving while, but, you know, like a lot of what we do in, in, in the gym is, is to support more running or support better running. And so I think that two to three days a week, it's pretty important. And sometimes it's movement. Sometimes it's lifting heavy, like, and that's stuff that goes away also with, it's like, you know, like, that, that also degrades with more mileage. And so if you don't do something, you know, like, you're going to degrade faster. And eventually, like a lot of people say, "Oh, lifting just, I don't need, like, it doesn't make me feel better," or does, "Well, it might not." But it, over the long term, it will help, you know? And I think that that's probably something that, it's hard to adopt because I've gone through periods of time, too, and I'll make those jokes. I'd be like, "God, lifting's not for me because I just feel, I feel better just running." And, and you might, but like, over the long term, it's just definitely, you just need to do it. And it's, so you got to, in some way, figure out how to fall in love with that a little bit. Michelov Ultra is getting fans closer to the game, with a chance to win court side seats, merch, and more. Visit megalove Ultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelov Ultra.Courtside, 26-27, no purchase necessary, opens to US residents 21 plus, begins on October 1st, 20-26 and ends on June 30th, 20-27, multiple entry periods. See official rules at megalove Ultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. That's new. Okay, can we take a few minutes to make this all very practical, too? Let's see at the average 50.0, that's listening right now, right? Let's assume this 50.0 marathon runner has five to seven weeks, five to seven hours a week dedicated to training. Let's call him John. If John wants to break 3-20 in the marathon and qualify for Boston, how would you build the basic architecture of his training? If you were to look at first, like the period of time for three months before the marathon, like, okay, we can, we can, we'll go, we'll go and reverse, like, we'll, we'll go back to the part after the marathon. But if you got to yourself to a good spot before, before that, and you were able to start for three months, I think if you're, if you're pretty fit, you go your bigger session on Wednesday and Saturday. Like, that's what I, and I, one of those sessions, the Saturday, which pick and choose, you know, like, should be the long run workout type day. And where you're going to get in close to 18 to 20 miles even maybe, and in a few points, you know, like, maybe it's 16 to, to 18, you know, like, at certain points, but, and then, so I, I would do it on Wednesday in the middle of the week, you know, like, one thing that you can do, and you'd be like, all right, and then you get to the weekends and have another one. And so the other one, maybe it's a track workout, depending on what your availability is, say, you live in an area where you're, you're just better off going to the track and doing some, you know, like, a lot, like eight to 10 miles of, of a long workout, you know. And so you have those two, and then I'd say probably on a Monday and a Friday, you should do a 60, the, you know, 65 minute run, maybe hit the gym. And if you have time on the Tuesday and the Thursday, that's probably a good day to do some strides and another, another, you know, 60 minute run. And that's probably your best. I don't think you're, you're better off doing, you know, like, a double workout. So are your, you know, you're, you're doing four days a week. I, I think for a marathon, you got to have the long sessions, like, you got to have the long, the long workouts. And so maybe though that's just during those three months. And during the other three months, if you're doing two marathons a year, maybe you should do more than the Norwegian singles method where you train then four days a week and the workouts aren't that big and they're not that long, but they're moderately hard and you're, you're doing it. So then, you know, like that, you take those, those other two to three months and you support the ability then to do the next three months again. And so like if it's important to do two marathons a year, you got to really take that two to three months between. And so to run that three 20 marathon, you still going to have to keep the ability between the marathons so that it's not so far away, right? And so I think you go back and forth between the two, the two times a week big sessions. And then you can still have Sunday to have a social life, be with the family, even Saturday, you know, you do that Saturday morning, you're going to have to tough it out and when the wife's yelling at you for being tired because you did 20 miles, you put up with it that day and Sunday, you're still pretty good, you know, like and ready to do it again. But then that, you know, those two to three months between, yeah, you got to, I think you got to, you got to train in a maybe more sustainable fashion, you know, so because marathon running is extreme on the body. And so you have to do those big sessions to be good. So then maybe that's my, maybe that'll become a common, you know, training philosophy now would be like Norwegian singles and, you know, for two to three months and then big marathon, you know, training efforts for two to three months. Yeah, that's my training advice, sort of. Okay. Okay. If Dayton Risenheim today as a coach could go back and coach Dayton Risenheim, the athlete from age 20 or from age 18, what would you do differently? Well, I think the biggest thing I would do differently is I would, I would be a little harder on the athlete because I think that I, I had a lot of freedom to do whatever I want when I was young and I needed a harder hand, I think. And maybe just to hold me back, I saw I was a super driven athlete and I think I needed, I really needed someone to just hard stop me, you know, like, and I think that if, if you're an athlete like that, you need to have a, you need to have a coach that's just going to be like, you're done, we're stopping here. And, and I think the other part is I would have fueled a lot better. I think I had so many injuries, you know, back 25, 30 years ago, we didn't know what we know today about fueling and, yeah, and the capacity for, you know, for work is just, it's, it's, you can, you recover, you can train better, like, I had so many bone stress injuries that probably came from, you know, like, from not being, like, loaded with enough carbohydrate before and during and after, it's like carbohydrates, you know, like, if you're going to go into hard training, you know, like, and especially as a young athlete when, you know, like, your, your body's really growing and developing, I think you got to do that. And so, like, if I could go back and do it, I think I could have, like I said, I did all these things in my running career, despite myself pretty much, I think I had a lot more ability and never, never realized it. And I think I, I just, yeah, you, but you can't go back. So luckily, I'm, you're going to go back. Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you, I'm luckily, I, I try to take a lot of that experience that you went through and I had a lot of great, you know, a lot of great things, but, you know, as a coach, I'm, I'm, I'm, I love coaching more than I did as an athlete and never thought I would because you get to, you get to have, you know, some impact on athletes that you hope that, that, you know, let, you can make a difference. And so, I get to take some of the bad experience, hopefully, and, and part it on them. Yeah. Well, you can't go back and you are going to turn 44 at the end of this year, right? Yes, I am. If you, if you want to coach yourself now for a chance to break the M45 Masters marathon record in 18 months from now, what are some things from the way that you coach the on ethics club that you actually apply to your training that we give you the best chance of breaking the record, which is two hours, 14 minutes, right? At a moment. 214 is the, yeah. Is the record? Wow. For the M45 Bernhard Legat. You're fellow countrymen. Bernhard actually probably is a perfect example of a lot of those things. I mean, Bernhard ran, did not run high volume at a young age, just stacked a little bit more every year. He always worked on the speed and power. And I think that he was the kind of athlete that, you know, probably he won 214 at 45. I don't know what that equates to if you age grade it to, yeah, like a 5K or something like that. But, but that's pretty dang good. It's pretty dang good. So I think that he'd probably be a better person. I'd probably be asking him for training, honestly. But, but I think, I think ultimately, like if you're really well-developed athlete, like myself, and I was going to go back and really train now, you know, for it, I'd have to find what that right balance is. And like, I think I could train right now if I had the desire, which I don't have the desire to do that to get training. I think I could probably train at 80 to 90 miles a week right now and do exactly what I just told everybody else, the two to three months of Norwegian single-type training. And then the three months of training hard twice a week, yeah. It's specific. I think if I did that, I still think I could get not to 14, but I think I could get close. I just have to go back and redo some things maybe in my life before. So, yeah, but I don't have the desire to do that. It's super impressed that Bernard was able to do that for all those years. Is he a friend of yours? He is a friend of mine, he's a good dude, and yeah, I was always impressed. You know, like he actually told me one time, we talked about age, this is probably when he was about 40. He was like running the 5K at that point and he'd still run like maybe sub 13 and won the U.S Olympic trials, he made the Olympic team and I was like Bernard, how do you do that? It's very impressive that you have the desire to do that and he said I just changed my opinion of what is good and what I want to do and he's like I don't have to be myself from the past and I just have to be as good as I can be now and that's a really healthy mindset and I think I carried him a long way, he's like he moved from the 1500, he knew he didn't have to be a 1500 meter runner anymore, he moved to the 5K and he would take a skill set there and then he moves into the marathon and I think that that's a very healthy mindset for people as they age, you're like I said before, you're not going to get better than you were, like you're not, it's just so you don't have to, and actually it's probably really good advice even to young people, you don't have to be like better than you were the week before, the year before, you'll get better over time probably but you have to like compare yourself to the day before, you know, like not the person from the year before, like have for progress like that and Bernard was always a great example, there's probably a reason why he made it to 45, being so impressive like that, yeah I guess you just have to be as good or try and be as good as you can for the age that you are absolutely yeah absolutely yeah well Dayton as we land the plane here if a 45 year runner listening to us wants to be the best runner they can possibly be say at 55 right for what for the capacity of a 55 year old runner what advice would you lift them with now I think probably enjoying it is important still too, you know running we're all a little bit, most runners are a little bit like addicted OCD kind of mentality where the time and yeah they're type A and I'm the same way I mean I've taken one day off of running in probably seven or eight months and okay and it was because of bad travel I could have run you know like and but I enjoy it it makes me feel healthy like I did something and I think that that's important so continuing to enjoy it and not getting like obsessed with the streak maybe necessarily like when I took that one day off was in middle of August I was with I was over in Europe and traveling it was like midnight and we got in late and saw the athletes and my physio there's with me and and I said you know what I think today's the day that I break the six months streak and he said it's okay you know like it so you know what I got up the next day and I ran 13 miles and I felt good so I think that that's a very important healthy lifestyle choice to make sometimes yeah sometimes taking a day off so okay if I get home and the wife looks at me it says you've been gone a lot don't go out for very long you know then I get to say you know what it's probably today's not the day to do 15 miles so yeah exactly data and my closing question for you is after a lifetime spent pursuing endurance first as an athlete and now as a coach what does endurance mean to you well endurance is the ability to do something for a long time right it's kind of like you being able to on go you know for a long time and staying consistent is that is that thing right and that's why I consistently still run 65 miles a week I think I have good endurance you know so to speak so being able to do it for a long time that's you know whether you're talking about training life whatever like have a little have an ability to do it you know like is is very hard to do and so you got to find you got to find the things that work for you and build your capacity and how do you yeah that's how you that's how you get better at endurance you build your capacity and so figuring out the right formula for you is is important day 10 thank you for his conversation yeah no problem thank you for having me one of you the one who's always in the know about the game the scores the plays here's a tip the apple sports app just pick your favorite teams and get automatic live updates without even knowing their schedules and when your team scores it shows up right on your iphone lock screen making it easy to check in anytime so rule the group chat and download apple sports for free on the app store or find it on your new iphone this episode is brought to you by state farm football has a play for just about everything you can go deep keep it on the ground or draw up something nobody sees coming and whether you want to run a flea flicker or the touch push you need a plan to fit your unique situation that's why state farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget now that's a solid game plan like a good neighbor state farm is there