#392 - CIA Scientist Deathbed Confession: NEW Files Expose Alien Contact | Andy Puharich

You can eat well, work out, take supplements, and try to get enough sleep, and you still have no idea whether it's actually changing how your body is aging. But that's what makes True Diagnostics' TrueAge test really interesting. TrueAge uses epigenetics, basically chemical tags on your DNA, that change with things like sleep, stress, diet, exercise, and your environment to estimate how your body is aging. Its methods have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals and developed with researchers at Harvard, Yale, and Duke. You receive your biological age, how quickly you're aging, and information about how areas like your heart, brain, and liver may be aging, plus recommendations around nutrition, exercise, sleep, supplements, and lifestyle. And it's simple, an at-home finger prick, send the prepaid kit back, and your personalized report arrives online in about three to four weeks. So if you're serious about longevity and curious about how your body is really aging, then this is one of the easiest ways to find out. Right now, go to truediagnostic.com and use the code DANNYJONES for 20% off your entire order. That's T-R-U-D-I-A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C.com. Use the code DANNYJONES and get 20% off. Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun, GatorLite, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. GatorLite, hydrates faster than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. Andy, pleasure to meet you. Greg, good to see you again. Great to see you. Your documentary is incredible. I just watched it for the second time this morning. Thanks. Can you guys give us, or the people that are listening who may not know, a high-level view of who your father was, Andrea Puharich? He should do that. He's actually more of an expert on my father than I am, because he's done so much research. He was, well, you know, he was a scientist, first and foremost. He was a medical doctor. He went to Northwestern Medical School, had a medical degree. But he started researching psychic phenomena very early on in the mid-40s, because really the Northwestern, when he was going to Northwestern, that was 40 years ago. And he was a doctor. And he was a doctor. And he was a doctor. 46, 47, 48, and he was interested in that all the way back then. But he was just very early on interested in psychic phenomena, the brain, the possibilities of the human mind, what can be done. And so I think he was just a pioneer of ESP, extrasensory perception research, and was doing experiments in that realm far before other people were. And of course, his life and everything he did, he went on to do way more than just ESP research, but he started. He was working closely with Isak Bentov, right? He discovered Uri Geller. He was a part of the Stanford Research Institute, SRI. He was connected to all these people, Hal Puthoff. Yeah. Yeah. So he was very important and he kind of had his tentacles and all that stuff. But I think he was never really, I guess, famous, you could say, in the sense that people don't know, you know, like Puthoff and these other people are very known. I mean, of course, they're still alive and they're out there and they're talking, but Buharach was very like underground, I guess you could say. I mean, of course, he became much more popular in the 70s when his book on Uri Geller came out. But yeah, he kind of had his fingers and everything, but he was still very like in the shadows, I guess you could say. He was involved in like all this stuff from the very, very beginning, but he's not very known. You know, he's not like a household name by any means. So out of curiosity, what was so significant about, like, why were all these guys spending so much time in Israel? Because your Uri Geller came from Israel and there was a moment where in the film where your dad, Andre Puharach, he says, Yeah. he was leaving Israel and they took a bunch of his stuff. Right. Well, initially, I think my dad was doing research on many people. And before Uri, he was researching this guy called Arago, who was a Brazilian healer. And Arago suddenly died, which was terrible. And then research stopped and my dad was looking for a new research subject. Then he heard of this guy in Israel called Uri, Uri Geller. So some say that the CIA sent him on a mission to go investigate. I've always thought that he just did it on his own curiosity. But he went out there and, you know, went to see one of Uri's shows. Uri was doing performances, you know, showing his mental capabilities. And so he just went to a show. They got to meet. He did some experiments in a hotel, set up some, you know, some simple experiments to see if Uri was alive. Uri was genuine. And he found he was in those small, you know, little things he set up. And then I think the story you're referring to is then he left and the Mossad got interested and they started following him or whatever, you know. So but basically, he discovered Uri and he took him back to the States to have him researched at Stanford University, where, you know, under lab conditions, they did. Uri was genuine. And he found he was in those small, you know, small, little things he set up. And then he took him back to the States to have him researched at Stanford University, where, you know, under lab conditions, they did. I'm pretty sure it was Benthoff who originally tipped off Puharich to Geller because in the archives there's photographs of very early experiments with Geller where they're clearly in Benthoff's living room. Because it's Benthoff, it's Puharich, Geller, and Benthoff. They're doing experiments. There's Geller at a table with like a big black sheet over his eyes and some weird, I don't know, monitor device or something. So this was really early on. And you're saying this is before Uri came to the States? Yes. Yeah. And I think at one point Puharich in a journal or something indicates that Benthoff is the one who said, hey, there's this guy here. You got to come see him. And that was the original connection. But Benthoff is a very known Israeli intelligence, like very, very- Even back then? Yes. But before, because this was 72, I think these pictures are from, but he was involved in this group of Israeli scientists who were very, very connected to intelligence in like the 60s, like the mid 60s or something. There's an interesting book that Benthoff's daughter wrote about him and it gets into all of this. But he was like extremely, and what's interesting to me is later on in Puharich's life, in the 90s, when he was, you know, older, he was kind of talking trash about Benthoff and he was some conference and somebody in the audience asked him about his connection to Benthoff and he was kind of like laughed it off and made some sort of joke about how he was insignificant or something. So I don't know if there was some weird, something happened between them, but no, he was super connected, that guy, Benthoff, for sure. That is strange. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder why that was. I don't know. I don't know. Same field of interest. Yeah. But there's a tape too that we have of Puharich at Benthoff's apartment in Tel Aviv. Audio tape? Yeah. And they were just kind of sitting, talking like we are, and they just had a cassette and they were just talking about, like you said, all this stuff in his book, things like this, but they were mostly talking about Geller and how they could sort of utilize his talents and what he, what could be possible and, you know, all this stuff about, could his, his mind trigger the, um, the root of a seed to grow and these sorts of things. But gets back to your point. I mean, these guys were clearly super intelligent. They're not just these, you know, wacko guys sitting around talking about Geller. Like they were really like high intelligence. Are you convinced that he can really bend spoons and it wasn't magic? Like, are you convinced like telekinesis is like a real thing? Like he, there's some real thing happening there where he can look at a spoon and, and. Rub it, rub the air around it and make the thing bend. Like, is that, are you guys both convinced about this? It's a very good question because I'm not totally convinced. Yeah. I know it exists. I do think it exists. And the interesting thing is there was this one point where Uri, uh, was doing a show in England. It's very famous. And he asked people, you know, on television, he asked people at home to pick up spoons and, you know, see if they could bend them as well. Mm-hmm. And, and the telephones at the BBC exploded because it was all these, and especially young kids who were suddenly doing this. And, and that was so interesting because they were just being triggered by Uri. And, hey, listen, I'm sure Uri was able to, you know, to do it at some point in his life. I'm pretty sure he was. I'm not sure if he, if he, uh, kept that power, you know, and I think maybe there was some trickery involved later on. Mm. That's my belief. Didn't you say you met with him? Yeah. Not that long ago? Yeah. Well, my, to add to your point, there was this same show in, in England in the mid seventies. And I, I think you know about this. One of the things he did apparently was inside a wristwatch, he claimed that the, you know, minute hand was going to bend. And it, and it did. And this guy had a wristwatch on and they clearly hold it like right up to the camera right inside the watch and the minute hand is like, you can find this. I think it's on YouTube is bent. So it's things like that, that, I mean, that's such an intricate trick to like pre do, you know, and even back then in the seventies with live TV, like they clearly didn't stop. I mean, it's a whole, you know, running show. So that was really strange. I don't know how you would. Yeah. There's mentalists out there like Oz Pearlman that can do crazy shit like that. Like you saw, he went on, on Joe Rogan's podcast, like guessed his pin number on his credit card. You could see Joe was freaking out, like had no idea what was going on. Like there's some crazy shit you can pull off with magic. And he like guys like that, those mentalist people, they tell you like, this is all like, this is, this is not magic. Like we have these crazy tricks where we can do this stuff. Yeah. Everything's possible. Everything's been done by magicians. Right. Exactly. And there's always, it's, you know, it's really hard. And then, you know, we were talking about this earlier when we were there, we did this interview with Uri and at the end he did a spoon bend session where we're out in a parking lot. And the thing about it is Uri would always, you know, if he wanted to go bend a spoon, he would create a whole bunch of distraction. You know, he would walk away and he would, you know, be distracting people. And then he would bend the spoon. And I was always a little bit suspicious about that. Yeah. Going like, look, see, that's the apartment I grew up in as a kid. And that window, I used to look out that window and, you know. Yeah. But then he walks away and he's like somewhere behind a car and he's doing it. And it's like. What? Yeah. Well, you know. You didn't call him out on that? I didn't. Like what the fuck are you doing, Uri? Just bend the spoon, would you? Well, to answer your question, yes, he did do it. And my thought is I just simply didn't. After he walked behind a car? Yeah. Well, I don't recall that exactly. But they had a camera right on him. Yeah. We were filming him the whole time. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But I don't know how he did it. That's all I can say. Was it a trick? Perhaps. But he did do the classic thing where he holds it, he rubs it like this and it kind of starts bending. I don't, I can't say, do I believe it? Not a hundred percent. Yeah, true thought, Danny. I can't say. That's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. If you enjoy watching our show on Spotify or YouTube and you want to be more involved, I encourage you to please come check out our Patreon community. Not only does our Patreon community get every episode you see on YouTube early, fully uncensored and ad free, but we're also doing Patreon exclusive episodes as well as live Q and A's and you can get your personal questions answered by our guests every single week. For me, being able to collaborate and communicate back and forth with our Patreon community every week has been huge. And this has been my way of saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month. Now back to the show. I keep going back and forth. I like, I'm kind of like you. I think that, I think that this stuff's real. Like I think the telepathy stuff's real. I think the remote viewing stuff is real. I believe in extrasensory perception, but I think there's a lot of fucking fuckery that's going on with people, especially, especially people that are becoming like very famous, getting a lot of attention for it, selling books, that kind of thing. That's where I start to get skeptical. Yeah. Well, the other thing I'll say about the telekinesis is you've probably seen when some people do it, like the tips of the fork will be like twirl, like sort of twirled up almost like a circle. Have you seen this? That is, I mean, I don't know how you do that by just kind of like bending it. Cause even this woman, one of the space kids is in the film. She of course, you know, didn't do it in front of me, but she had this bag of cutlery. She had these little names that she bent and you know, the, the, the tips of them are all wound up. I mean, that's really, that's strange. I don't, I can't, I don't know how you would do that. I don't know. So, yeah. Yeah. That reminds me. We had Dean Radin. We, we were talking to him the other day and he was telling us a story of a spoon that he was able to bend using these tricks. And who did it? Do you remember who he said he learned that from? No. I thought he was talking to Isaac. Maybe he would. No, I don't think it was Esau. I forget. I mean, it might've been Uri, but he was, Dean Radin's a guy who's been studying this stuff forever. He's like did a bunch of stuff with, in like the telekinesis parapsychology world during the cold war. And he still does it today, scientist. And he said like using these protocols, he was able to bend a spoon. And he, I mean, he seemed very genuine when I was talking to him. He said he kept the spoon. He says he still has it. It's like a real steel spoon or whatever, stainless steel spoon. And, and like, there's no way you would have been able to bend it without a ton of force. Yeah, I know. Did he say how he did it? Was it like a chemical or was it pre pre worked on or no, he said he did it genuinely through these telekinetic powers. Like he said that he was like, just like meditating and like, was like touching it. Everyone was able to bend it. He said he was able to bend it with this protocol. And that was the only time he was able to do it. He said he's also tried it like hundreds of times and not been able to do it. He's like, there was one time he was able to do it. He kept that spoon from when he did it. I mean, it is hard for anyone. If you just get a stainless steel spoon. I mean, it's, it's pretty difficult to bend it like that. The thing is, and I'm sure you, you agree with me. with me i mean i do believe also in the and the power of the mind is incredible as an incredible force the mind can do so many things yeah and and this might be one of them i don't know if people can repeat it like uri geller did all the time so i think that you know if you want to be in a tv show or you have to perform sure you're going to sure and this stuff like i i imagine this stuff probably you're probably not able to access this stuff 24 7 even if you can do it like if you have some incredible ability to tune your mind to like another dimension where you can move bend spoons and read people's minds like you're not gonna i can imagine this like just comes to you on like whenever you want to call it like i'm sure when you're on stage in front of people and like you're getting paid to demonstrate stuff like you can't rely on the muse tapping into you every single time you gotta figure out a way to like force it exactly so that doesn't mean that it's all it just means that like look if you're make turning this into a business and you can't rely on it all the time you have to figure out a way to fake it sometimes yeah definitely so yeah that's the way i feel too yeah a lot and this goes for a lot of people that do so i wanted to ask you um how did you first discover what your dad was doing well um the first time he told me about it was in 75 again not 95 and he told me he met this guy he came to visit us in eindhoven in the netherlands and he told us what he was working on and and you know he said he met this guy he was able to bend metal with his mind and do all these other things that was the first time he told me about it and then you know later on i went to the states and of course uri was actually living in our house at the time oh wow yeah i used to play basketball with him a lot but i was you know i was 15 years old and i was still trying to figure out what the hell all of this was and i wasn't very easy believer so you know it took me a long time before i could actually kind of even when you were 15 you knew you were skeptical of this stuff yeah you know my dad was my hero so i kind of was inclined to believe the things he told me but i've always been very skeptical and i've always you know tried to you know i need proof myself i have to see it myself at what point did you realize like how how like big this whole operation was that your dad was a part of i think it kind of hit me when there's this book called briefing for the landing on planet earth and this describes the work my dad did for the landing on planet earth and i think it kind of hit me when i was later with uh john whitmore and phyllis lemmer uh with the entity called the nine phyllis channeled this um and they'd been doing that for a long time and a book was published this briefings book and i read that book and that really hit me then i really started to grasp the idea of you know there being uh extraterrestrial entities that my dad was contacting and then i i became really really interested in it and i started reading it but i have to be honest it was in in only in 85 when i had a very serious uh ufo encounter myself that i was totally convinced and all the doubt left me what was that encounter it's an interesting story uh my dad was living in devotion north carolina at the time and the big house owned by the reynolds tobacco family uh they let him stay there was a big house he had a lot of people visiting and i was there for the summer my sister was there there was a whole bunch of other people and there was two mediums um that were also there and they both had the same prediction that there was going to be a ufo landing at the house on a certain date so um it was kind of funny because i i the day before it was supposed to happen my cousin and i took up a video uh and we recorded everyone asking him there you know how is it going to affect you do you think it's real and this and that and we were we watched that movie that evening and it was it turned out funny we're all laughing about it a bunch of us went out to the on the to the porch just you know to sit outside and talk about it more and i remember very well i was sitting with my back towards uh towards the outside and suddenly my cousin goes oh my god so we turned around and there was this huge area of lights that moved across the sky really slowly trailing the light behind him and that was obviously not from this world that was obviously you know and it had been predicted that it was going to happen the next day but later on we figured out it was like almost at midnight and that that moment i i was able to drop all my doubt you know that was a very very important moment moment moment moment moment in my life so it just looked like a trail of lights well what i saw is like there was a whole bunch of different colored lights like i didn't see a shape but i just saw like a shape of lights an interesting thing was that you know when something flashes by really fast and it leaves a trail behind trail of lights just because you know the the way physics works but this thing was going really slowly and incredibly silent there was no sound at all how close would you say it was um let's say about uh 100 yards away oh wow over the treetops it lasted about i don't know maybe a minute and what was the shape of the lights like what shape did it form the form it was kind of kind of sphere and it wasn't like a ufo shape if that's what you're asking i just saw this you know a whole bunch of lights moving across the sky leaving this trail and um yeah pretty interesting and it lasted only a minute yeah and where did it just zoomed off or what no it didn't zoom off and it just disappeared behind it just faded away just faded away okay yeah good question actually because i can't really remember how it how it how it faded away so yeah then everyone that was there witnessed it you know all we could go was oh my god oh my god we're all hugging each other and um if you have an experience like that i can tell you then you suddenly start to realize okay okay so all of this stuff must be real my dad wasn't even there he was sleeping and uh he goes oh yeah i've seen so many of those uh you know really yeah wow it was really weird so to answer your question that's the the moment in my life when i really realized oh my god you know what my dad's doing is really has some validity to it and when did you realize all of the intelligence and military ties into all this stuff i never really did oh really no no you guys your dad never talked to you about that stuff well i was talking to greg about that earlier my dad you know you saw you've seen the film right and there's one point where his house was burned down right and he always he was convinced it was the cia trying to stop him of publishing a certain manuscript and putting out information they had warned him not to do it right then his house was burned out and then after that he became incredibly paranoid and he kept saying that the cia was you know after him and and he hated the cia i mean he was literally he hated them and and and was totally against him that's that's the picture that formed in my mind i mean later on people started putting pieces of the puzzle together and apparently i mean i know he worked for the government um in his earlier years because he had to go to the military and obviously they paid for a lot of his research uh because they were very interested in what he was doing and when he was in the military he was assigned to investigate the paranormal and so he had an involvement with the government but if he was ever really on their payroll he never mentioned it to me all i know is he hated those guys so that but that's my experience you know greg really you know dove deep into the uh into all the material and came up with a with another conclusion so so who so who was paying him well multiple different agencies at least in the early years but that's what was interesting about doing this film is like i would discover things that andy you know wouldn't never really knew yeah right like for instance something that i sort of collaborated on with annie jacobson is that that she had mentioned that he had gotten this large grant from the atomic energy commission really in the late 60s yeah so what happened was i of course was like okay what happened was this real i did a lot of digging and i came across the documents that yes proved this that They went to his lab in the late 60s, Intellectron. He had a laboratory in New York where they were doing a lot of biomedical research. Was that the Intellectron? Intellectron. Wasn't that the Roundtable Foundation? No, this was late 68, 67. And there's all these documents of this guy, Paul Henshaw, who worked for the Atomic Energy Commission, who was involved in the Manhattan Project, literally. And he was the head of biological research or something for the Atomic Energy Commission. They went to his laboratory to witness an experiment he was doing with the TD-100, which is this hearing device that Buharach invented. And you see it in the film where these deaf patients were able to hear using tones that would somehow connect through the facial nerves. They would hear, be able to interpret signals and voices. And he invented it. He invented this machine that did that. And he demonstrated this for the Atomic Energy Commission. And they concluded that the technology was definitely real and definitely worked, how he said. And he got this, I think, $300,000 grant. From the Atomic Energy Commission. Which at that time was over maybe close to a million dollars. And that was in 68. Yeah, there was the story of somebody who had metal teeth. And they were picking up radio signals or something. Yeah, yeah. They thought they were hearing voices and it was just like the radio, local radio antenna. Yeah, yeah. That was earlier at the round table in the 50s. That's how he started the Intellectron Company. Yeah. Because he was working with this dentist and he figured, oh, wait a while. This guy is receiving, you know, he's got this filling which acts as an antenna. And then he came up with this device that you would actually implant in a tooth with a transmitter on your wrist or whatever that would transmit. And so deaf people were. And they were able to hear through this nerve. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade. Hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Consult a healthcare professional. If symptoms persist. Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to thirty five dollars on your next fill up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop. Your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply. See Cider store for details. Well, I think that's how we started working on the TD, the transdermal machine, right? Yeah, that started in the fifties and went in through the sixties. But that's one example of, you know, who was giving him money. I mean, that's that's a fact. Atomic Energy Commission. But what's always mysterious is like we don't really know where it went, you know, or how far it went. But we just know, hey, they gave him a significant amount of money and what happened with that or how much it was advanced. We don't we don't really buy the whole project off of him, because I know that at some point, you know, we suddenly got a letter. I'm a millionaire and but he had sold the intellectual company, he'd gotten rid of it. So it would that coincide with with that you're saying was a grand for him to do research? Yeah, I could. I mean, again, it just goes back to the mystery of him where I even know the research I've done. I don't I've heard that story, I think, through you and maybe yourself. I don't know if it's true, but I don't know if it's true that he sold the company or that he sold his sister as well, that they had sold the company, but I don't really know. Like, I never really found anything that would indicate that that is how it turned out. You got a letter for he told you he became a millionaire? Yeah, well, I was living in the Netherlands. I think we got a letter and he said, oh, I'm now a millionaire or something, something to make him look whatever big. So but, you know, the interesting and this is going to come up a lot because Greg has done so much research on my dad. He's really, you know, went and found all these incredible documents and papers and tapes and videos. He knows a lot more about my dad than I do. What out of all of the research and all the documents and all the tapes that you listen to, Greg, like what to you sort of stood out the most or like kind of like blew your perception out of the water the most your pre like were there any like preconceptions you had that kind of like? I guess it was it kind of goes back to this TD-100 device because he creates this in the 60s, right? I think it was even like 65 or six. It was pretty, pretty early. And again, what that does is it enables people to hear like tones and they can decipher tones, which could have a message in it and so forth. And they can they can hear it. So I think for me. You know, there's a lot of these tapes and we may have talked about this from the way later in the 70s, late 70s, these channeling sessions, right, where they're communicating with the nine and they're there, you know, usually a space kid is going into a trance meditative state and is receiving information from the nine, you know, and an alleged entity. What are the nine? We can't we can't just gloss over. Yeah, we got to tell people what the nine is. Yeah, well, the nine, this is woman called. Well, actually, this whole start, it's kind of interesting. This all started really early on. When was it? When the doctor came into his lab? 1953. Yeah. Was in a 53 really that early? So this Indian guy walks into his lab and I don't know the details and takes my my dad by his, I think, index finger. Gives him a story of his life to convince my daddy that he's, you know, that there's something psychic about him or whatever. And then he starts channeling this entity that calls themselves a nine. How do they start off? We are M something. Yeah, there's all this weird. Yeah, and they say they're like the nine principles of nature, forces, something or other. And so later on, many years later, this woman, Phyllis, comes along. And she suddenly starts channeling the same entity, the nine. And my dad really latched on to that. How many years later was that? Well, technically, it was Uri who. Did he initially? But he didn't, he channeled that entity called spectra. Yes, but. It was Phyllis that did, did he channel the. He claims to have, I don't know if that's truthful, but he claims to have. When you guys are talking, just try to like talk. Into the mic. Oh, yeah, sorry. Yeah, so it was like a decade later. It was early '70s. The first one was '53. So for whatever reason, all that time passed, and then they popped back up, you know, almost two decades later. Whoa. So that's. Yeah, and Phyllis was a very powerful channel. And the information that she channeled was very interesting. And she talked about Earth's history and the involvement of. Alien civilizations. And my dad actually set up a whole, like a company, right? Called the Lab 9, which was, you know, centered around her communications. And they did all these trips and I think it's in the film, right? That they went out to meditate a lot and. Yeah. Yeah, and. So what were the nine? So it's complex, but apparently they're a group of entities that are basically. overseeing the universe, I guess is the simplest way to say. Okay, so they're aliens. Yeah. Yeah, well, whatever. Aliens are like divine spirits. More like divine spirits. Okay. 'Cause they've never really said, you know, we look like this or we're shaped like this. They had a spokesman called Tom. They never said we're from Zeta Reticuli or. No, no, no. They're more of like, yeah, and just an intelligence that can be contacted through this method of trance. And that they're. They're out there. They're overseeing not just Earth, but the universe. Interesting. They're overseeing what happens with the planet because it's all part of a cosmic plan. And they're making sure things don't happen and that kind of thing. But it's a group of intelligences is the best way I guess you could describe it. Okay. And they communicate through certain people, usually through psychic people. And for whatever reason, there's only like a few that they've come through. It's this guy, Dr. Vinod, the Indian guy in the '50s and then apparently Uri Geller in the '70s. And then this woman Phyllis in the '70s as well. So it's strange. I don't know if there's some protocol that brings them through certain people or some people can bring them through, others can't. But apparently like just through Puharich, he was able to get people to connect with the nine. And it's very. I mean, it's a total rush. It's a total rabbit hole. You know, like Peter Levenda talks a lot about the nine. tons of conspiracy stuff about it and but i think the big question obviously is like what is the conspiracy no good sorry i mean what's the question well the conspiracy is just the the when they formed right so in the 50s that you know puharich has this psychic lab he's doing a lot of psychic research and at the time he was working or getting funding from the military from the army and again we all we know this as a fact there's documents and this goes back to the cia thing too because he was corresponding with the cia back then too i mean there's literally letters from alan dullis's assistant going back and forth to puharich you know it was nice to see you in washington make sure you make sure you touch base when you're here you know that kind of stuff so the conspiracy is basically like why in a in a research lab being financed by multiple intelligence agencies is all of a sudden a psychic making contact with this right of intelligent beings and why are there all these very very elite wealthy high society people involved and why are they there and why are they part of it is there some bigger plan is there some bigger idea here is this psychological warfare is this real so it all goes back to that origin point in the 50s where they first came through this indian psychic but you know i can see why people would think the kind of conspiracy angle to it but at the same time totally we just don't know and that's what's frustrating about you know making the film and spending so much time like to as we sit here today like i still can't really definitively say oh this is this is what happened like we it's a huge rabbit hole you know and i don't know there's this big conspiracy that you know the nine of these people in politics through the years have been involved and of course there's the jean roddenberry connection where he came to a bunch of the sessions and and was channeling the nine so people think that they're who's that he's the creator of star trek the guy created star trek oh my god i actually put out a video about this we saw somebody showed us the most fucked up video i've ever seen the other day of the creator of star trek oh yeah he's talking about like his daughters and shit you see that unfortunately yeah yeah so he was um involved he went up to the pooh arch's house and sat in on all these channeling sessions so the point is there's this conspiracy that the nine roddenberry did yeah we have the tape of it i put out i made a little video on it wow yeah cosmic clock is a new page i started where i'm trying to put out some little tidbits of things we haven't used in the film but what's the conspiracy well it's just this idea that because some like the military creator of star trek all these people are trying to use the nine to to usher in some new you know new world order a new agenda and the nine are orchestrating everything but i mean we've seen of course there's deep space nine and you can say okay he he was influenced by the nine and he called it deep space nine but there's no real like evidence that the nine actually like did anything or really shaped anything or really changed anything what's odd to me is the fact that you know no why is no one now channeling the nine and where where'd they go we have a new version of the nine now yeah i mean that that whole story like it parallels perfectly with modern stories of like ufo abductees and stuff well not modern but like if you look at you know for example whitley streber You know, a guy who's like, you know, his stories are insane. Prolific science fiction writer connected to all these spooks and like his family was in the military. He was a part of like some crazy childhood experiments in the army in Texas. And you have guys like Chris Bledsoe who, you know, from North Carolina has these crazy sightings. And all of a sudden he's getting visited by NASA and like all these spooks and these intelligence people that are like tied into, you know, like who knows how much misinformation stuff could be wrapped up in all that. And, you know, and then you have like laying the groundwork for all of this. You have the whole Paul Benowitz story. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. Oh, yeah. Where like he was literally drove into like an insane asylum. Yeah. You know, by Richard Doty, I think his name was, this disinformation guy. There's a good film that just came out about all that called Saucers, Spooks and Kooks. What? Oh, you got to see it. When did this come out? I'll plug that right now. What a great title. Yeah. It's Adam Go-Rightly. He's an author. He's written great books. He wrote a book about Cary Thornley, that guy who was friends with Oswald and the whole JFK. He's like a genius, this guy. He's an author. Pull this up, bro. I want to see this. This is out? Yeah. He wrote a book called Saucers, Spooks and Kooks, which is like a very detailed history of the whole just UFO disinformation world, when it started, why it started. It's a great doc. They based it off his writing. His book. Yeah, it's out now. You can find it. But here we go. Yeah, there's a trailer. Let's watch it. We might have to. They might copyright us again. If you want to throw the headphones on, you can hear it. I thought you may have heard of this. No, I have not. Go ahead. Hit it, Steve. Oh, bizarre Roswell alien bodies, multiple crashed alien spaceships, a government cover up Dulce base. It didn't matter what base it was. It was all the battles. Underground bases and the aliens are coming in and all this really out there. Fringe areas. This is such a crazy story. Paul Benowitz was a scientist. He started noticing that there were lights doing strange things. These things lit up like balls of bright light and just took off, came up, went south around the end of the mountains. Gone. Who are they? Who's this guy? Yup. That's the guy. Let's go, right? We don't know what else could be going like, wow, they decided to just encourage him with the, with the outlandish ideas. One, because the only people that would listen to be crazy UFO people and foreign agents. We got Richard Doty, uh, apparently purposely misleading Benowitz and for whatever purposes, which could be a counterintelligence. To confuse the Russians. More to me, he was completely sold on Benowitz and Benowitz at that point had become the paranoid. Man, it's like, what a gut punch everybody in that room, including Stan Friedman had basically been played by bill. I guess these days it would be more like that New York times article. It just comes out of nowhere and just bang, somebody who's making an effort to push it through in the way that information and how they're using UFOs to potentially cover for, uh, an intelligence kind of gathering, psychological warfare. And it's such a great fricking cover story. If someone like Paul Benowitz and it's already there, you just let them do the work. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, no, that's the craziest thing about it too, man. That's, that's the reason, um, I'm more skeptical than ever about it because. Cause like that, that's, that makes so much sense that it makes more sense that they would have been trying to use Paul Benowitz as, because he was tied to move on and he was living in New Mexico, seeing these, these weird crafts flying above the air force base. And then Paul Benowitz goes, Hey man, I think these are aliens. I think you're right about this. And then the NSA moves in across the street, starts beaming shit into his like apartment, telling him that there's some alien civilization that ran out of water and they're coming here. And now he's going and talking to move on because like, and the whole strategy, the high level. strategy with the military was give, pump this guy with a bunch of fake information that leads him away from our serious, the military technology. And because we know the Soviets have infiltrated the UFO community in the United States, trying to get more information on our, on our military technology. So we're going to like, you know, throw them off the path, throw them off the trail or whatever, and use this guy's like a conduit of disinfo. And, um, that's the story is as old as the UFO story is, you know, that seems to be the intelligence. The whole intelligence thing is like so intertwined in all of it. It's just like, it's almost like you are just going to spin your wheels. If you're going to spend your time trying to figure out what this really is, because it's just, you walk into it, it's a fucking house of mirrors. Yeah. Well, I think my takeaway, I mean, I'm a believer or, you know, I want to believe of course, but I completely agree with everything you just said. But, you know, at the same time, I just feel like. There's just this idea that every single UFO sighting or situation ever since the beginning of time has just always been a cover for a military thing. And yeah, no, I don't, I don't think that's, I'm not saying you do, some people think that, and you know, then you've got Andy, your story. I mean, I have no reason to disbelieve you. A lot of people, I, my own mother, who's the most, you know, sane level-headed person, she has a very weird story when she was younger, seeing something. So it's like. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, I just feel like there's definitely that going on. I think that's obvious. I mean, it's like a true story what happened to him. But I think, and I guess a lot of other people think too, like there's still craft of unknown origin out there. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's not binary. I think there's probably some shit out there that we have no idea. I think I'm inclined to believe that we have stuff that's unexplainable, that defies physics, that we like siloed some sort of physics back in the 50s, some anti-gravity type stuff that the public's not aware of. I believe that. And I also believe that there's probably, I think like the real aliens that are out there flying around, I think it's probably some sort of like prehistoric human civilization that like survived through time, through cataclysms and stuff that maybe lives under the water. And is able to like shield itself from us. What about us from the future? Basically that, yeah. Or from the future, right. Right. If they are that advanced, they could probably figure out how to manipulate space-time somehow. Right. Yeah, I agree. And speaking of like the sort of funneling away advanced technology, instead of a crazy story, you probably remember, it's not in the film or anything, but this story about Uri Geller apparently teleported from, so have you heard the stories in the news right now? This guy, he's like a FEMA director and he had claimed that he teleported to a Waffle House. No, that's incredible. Can he bring that up, Steve? Yeah. This has been all over the news. So this guy, he's some sort of top FEMA employee or director, someone in the Trump administration, high up guy. And I don't even know the full story, but apparently he's been out there claiming he teleported from his house into a Waffle House or something. I wish I could fucking do that, dude. And so it's very odd and it's all over the news right now. But the point is back in the 70s, Uri Geller claimed that he teleported from walking down the street in New York City to Pujaric's house in Austin and came crashing through the screen door. Here, look. The Guardian, top US FEMA official, claims to have teleported to a Waffle House before. Teleporting is no fun, Greg Phillips, picked to lead FEMA's Office of Response and Recovery, has said on a podcast. Put this guy on the list. A far-right conspiracy theorist turned high. Oh, he's a far-right conspiracy theorist now. Turned high-ranking official at the US Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, claims to have once teleported to a Waffle House. Scroll down. Yeah, this is. What was he called in a Waffle House? On a January 25 podcast appearance, Phillips claimed that his car was lifted up while he was driving and transported 40 miles away into a ditch near a church. And in another instance, on the same episode, Phillips said that he was teleported 50 miles away to a Waffle House in Rome, Georgia. Seen in detail, the deep dive into Phillips' past public statements. Wow. So he says this was a long time ago or something? I don't know. Hang on, scroll down. Teleporting is no fun, he said. You know, you know it's happening, but you can't do anything about it. And so you just go and you just go with the ride. And wow, what an incredible adventure it all was. Well, what's crazy is that Geller in his story, he says the same thing almost. He goes, you know, it's happening and you can't control it. And all of a sudden it happens. Geller says he was like walking down Fifth Avenue or whatever. Yeah. And he suddenly felt like he was being pulled back. And the next moment he was face down. There was a big hole in my dad's porch screen up high. So whatever. They filmed it too. There's like Super 8 video of him filming this screen porch that's all smashed in. Yeah, and then he smashed on the glass table. The glass table was shattered. What? And Uwe was lying on the floor. Yeah, this is a weird story. And I mean, if you wanted to throw something through. No, it's not. Just the aftermath. Yeah, just the aftermath, yeah. If you want to throw something, you know, you need a helicopter or whatever to actually make that happen. So, and Uwe had a receipt in his hand because he had just bought something in some store with a time stamped on it, you know, 50 miles away and like minutes before. So it's a pretty credible story. Wow. My theory is they were experimenting with how to teleport a human being. I have no. Who's they? I don't know. That's just my crazy theory or, you know. Wait, so Puharic was there? Yeah. Well, he was at his house. He was at his house and he heard this big, big slam. He thought that the furnace had exploded. So maybe they figured out a way to teleport, you know, a small object. And so they said, why don't we try and see if this is possible with a human being? It's a crazy theory, I know. But, you know, I think at that time, in a way, it was sort of like a guinea pig to a lot of these types of experiments, I think. Yeah, that's a weird thing, though. I have no proof of that at all. One of the crazy things about this whole story is that if this is some like deep funded research that the military or the government is doing, why make this guy such this, like this celebrity figure? Like Pal Puthoff said in your movie, I think, he said Geller was maybe like 5% of their research, but he was 95% of their publicity. Yeah. I think, I mean, it's just a theory, but I think it's maybe a distraction situation where here's this, again, I have no idea if this is really how it went down, but so Puharic publishes, he publishes the book on Uri Geller in '74. He writes a whole book about how he met him, how he brought him to the United States, how all of a sudden he started channeling the Nine, and he details this teleportation story and all these other crazy stories. If you recall, it was like a pen, one of their pens got teleported to a UFO and it came back and they have proof that it came back. So I-- - The tapes. Don't forget about the tapes. - Yeah, the tapes, they would record channeling sessions, would disappear. So the only way that he could know what was said is he had to quickly transcribe the tape before the tape dematerialized and would disappear. This is all in this book that Puharic published. So you think here's a very intelligent doctor, scientist, potentially very military intelligence connected was all of a sudden putting out a book, which would do nothing more than completely discredit him and make him look like a total nut. - Right. - Which is what happened. So then-- - That was the end of his scientific career. - So then-- - When he published the book. - When he published the book, the whole scientific-- - So then they can say, "Oh, of course, this guy's just a, did you read his book? He's crazy, right? All this crazy shit, of course he's." So then he can go on and do whatever he needs to do. So the general public says, "Oh, he's that guy who wrote that crazy book about the teleporting. And of course, how could we believe this guy?" And he can go right on his way, doing whatever experiments he wants to do. - It's a theory. But I saw this old documentary about the KGB, and it was really interesting, 'cause there was this one section where they talked about a tactic they use is actually to purposely discredit people in that way, put out false articles, put out things that make them look like, essentially, they're crazy. And so these people can kind of be seen like that publicly, but in the shadows, just continue what they're doing. So that was in like a very legitimate, doc on the KGB, I saw. So I don't know, but it does make you question that book, and why would this very credible, very smart, very, you know, just publish that? And it was a huge book, it was a bestseller. I mean, it was- - Or would they intentionally, they being like the spooks behind it all, would they intentionally plant fake seeds into these people's, like, Puharich's mind, and tell them things, knowing that when they do eventually write a book or blow the whistle down the road, they're gonna have these fake things built into the story that sounds so crazy, it's just gonna make him sound like people are gonna think he's a kook, right? That's like my take on the whole Bob Lazar thing. I think that, you know, how he describes walking by a window and seeing like an alien, and they showed him the documents that said it was from Zeta Reticuli. I feel like those could have been like specifically planted things along the way that they intentionally brought him into contact with, so that if he ever did come out and like spill the beans, that would be in the story, they would know where it came from, and like people would think he's batshit crazy. - I agree with that. - I think that's probably possible. That's probably one aspect of all of this stuff too. - Well, something we were talking about that I wanted Andy to say is, because there's this big conspiracy really about, what we're saying, like how connected was Buharaj, who did he work for, this and that. And, you know, we don't really, I mean, we have some documents, of the Atomic Energy Commission thing, but there was a story in, I guess, what, the 80s, late 80s or something, when these two individuals came to your house and were sort of trying to recruit him, I guess you could say. Yeah, well, you know, that's the story my dad told me. I mean, I saw these guys show up and they had a heated conversation and my dad sent them away. My dad later on said those were CAA operatives that tried to get him to work for him. When was this? The time he lived in. 83, 84 or something, yeah. Yeah, probably around that time. Or it takes. But to be quite clear, guys, I mean, I'm not into the conspiracy stuff at all. I've always just, you know, thought like my dad was a curious scientist who was looking for, you know, answers to the paranormal, went to Israel by himself and, you know, met this guy and took him back to the States. And when. I don't. I'm not into the whole everything's a set-up plan and everything's, you know, set up to discredit him. I'm not in that league at all, I'm afraid. So. But, you know, that's my take on it, which is. So who. So when was this visit, though, with the guys that he said were intelligence officers? Well, I want to say it was like 83 or 85, but from what I remember, at that time, Pujar and his dad was doing a lot of. this ELF work. Right. Extremely low frequency. Because that's a whole different chapter. Yeah. You know, my dad really went into the ELF stuff. That's the reason that his house was burnt down because he wrote a manuscript called The Magnifying Transmitter. Yeah. He was going to have it published, but then the publisher, the manuscript disappeared and my dad was warned not to publish it. And then the house fire happened. But that was all the ELF stuff. I believe that's real because my dad was trying to. So the ELF stuff is all tied to like Havana syndrome and all that stuff, right? Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But way early, before all this stuff started coming out, we're talking like 76, 77. Yeah, but the Havana thing, wasn't that sound waves? Was that extra low frequency? Yeah. They were beaming some sort of frequencies or something like that. Yeah, but the ELF is extra low frequency, which is like really low bandwidth and the. Russians were experimenting with it and Americans were experimenting to use it as mind control over large populations. That's basically in the theory my dad had at least. Okay. And he was able to pick it up on his radio, he could tune in and he could hear like this chopping sound like a helicopter. And he was totally into that and he was focused on that for a while. How would you use these. What does ELF stand for? Extra low frequency. Extra low frequency. How would you use extra low frequencies for mind control? Well, apparently it has some kind of. What would you call it? It works on the brain or it works on the physical body to make people edgy or it's just a way of mass. You produce this signal and there was big antenna arrays. It was not like just a small thing. Oh yeah, the one in Russia is insane. The one in the middle of. Find the picture of the big ELF panel in Russia. It's like the size of a goddamn football stadium. The idea is that certain. Frequencies can cause different reactions in the brain. So essentially, I think it's a very low frequency ELF that causes a sort of. It's kind of a mind control thing. Yeah, like a trance-like state. But very crude. So like it makes you more receptive to things? Yeah, more receptive, tired, out of it, just discombobulated, higher frequencies, which apparently they used in Iraq in the 90s. That causes people to get very agitated, very angry, very crazy. Really? This is the idea is like, say you have a little. Well, this guy that Buharj worked with, Bob Beck, he created this little, what he called a black box. And you could have it sitting right here as we are right now and you can just literally go like this. And if it's the low one, all of a sudden you're doing this. If it's the high one, you're freaking out. So the idea is that this is being done on this type of scale. Oh yeah, look at that thing. That's the one. In Russia. And Buharj became. It's still sitting there today, right? Yeah, I believe it's still there. But it's dead now, right? But this is one of the things that Buharj, I find is sort of redeeming in the sense that he went out. I mean, I think you can speak to this too. Like he, I guess, proved that this is what was going on. This technology was real. It was being used. He wanted to blow the whistle on this. And they, once again, they, you know, were saying, you know, you can't do this, you know, too much, et cetera. That's probably why the house was burned. But he, after the house, you know. So the house was burned right after. Same, pretty much the same time he was. He wrote some manuscript about it? Yeah. He was going out, he was lecturing, but he really, even after the fire, he went out and he's kind of made it his sort of mission in those later years. To just warn people, like I've discovered this, this is a huge problem. Yeah, you even made a device to protect you from it, right? And what's the story with the house? What's the conventional explanation for the house burning down? Like what was the investigation? What was the, was there an investigation? It was definitely concluded it was arson. It was arson? It was definitely arson, yeah. Yeah, there's a police fire report. And there was people in the house. They tried to kill the people that were in the house as well, 'cause they doused the front porch and the back porch. With some very flammable liquid, which was only used by certain, you know, it was a really weird kind of thing. So both the escape exits were blocked. And there was like three people in the house. Heidi was there, right? Yeah. She had to jump from the second floor. It was pretty intense. Where was your dad at the time? He was in, I think he was in California at the time, yeah. So he wasn't there. So they knew he wasn't there. They must have known he wasn't there. Yeah, and I'd been there all summer and I left two days before the fire happened. So I always felt, oh, they didn't want to kill me, thank God. Do you think they were, so who do you think it was? They? If you were to guess. Yeah, well, my dad always said it was the CIA, but you know, I mean, he could, you know, there's so many agencies. What are you going to, when are you going to call them? You know, it could be any agency, but at least, you know, it was an agency that was determined to stop him from, you know, getting this information out into the world. Was there evidence in the house that was destroyed? Yeah, I mean, I think that was the idea, destroy what's in there. But I mean, of course, a lot of it's saved because you have it that ultimately wound up with me, but who knows what was destroyed? Well, yeah, by a course of a miracle, someone was able to alarm, to set off a fire alarm, which was in the street and fire trucks came very quickly and they saved most of the house and most of the paperwork as well. Wow. Which was pretty incredible, so. But it was clearly way more sophisticated than, you know, a disgruntled person who was there, who was like, I'm going to light a fire. I mean, even the arson report details how sophisticated, yeah, they blocked the doors, I mean. Yeah, it was professional. They said they could tell by the straightness of the lines where they poured the liquid that the guy had no nerves because they were perfectly straight lines, you know, stuff like that because, you know, they're saying that it was a professional, it wasn't, you know. So, I mean, that's real, that's real. And after that, my dad really freaked out and he went in hiding in Mexico for, I don't know, a couple of years and he was really, and after that he was obsessed by the CIA trying to get to him. It kind of got him paranoid, huh? Yeah, but very paranoid. I mean, it went way over the top. Really? Oh yeah, yeah. Didn't you write a book about a sacred mushroom? Yep. Yes. Is that when he went to Mexico? Oh, actually, yeah, here, look. Yeah, this was recently republished. Yeah, both of these. So, it's kind of interesting. Oh, look at that. Yeah, I brought only the cover because I was trying to travel lightly. The sacred mushroom, the key to the door of eternity. See, and that was in, what is it, '59 when he published that, I think originally. And so, that was one of his initial investigations into, you know, the paranormal. '59, you said? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, '59, yeah. But it was written throughout the '50s. So, this was before John Allegro's sacred mushroom book, I think. Yeah, I think we talked about that. This was very early on. We did talk about this, yeah. Yeah, because he did all the, sorry, he did all the research for it, like, earlier. I think it just happened that '59 was the year it was published. Right. In The Sacred Mushroom, Andrea Puharik takes us on an extraordinary journey into the realm where ancient whispers intertwine with the pulse of modern exploration. The Amanita Muscaria, mysterious and powerful, a gateway to the unseen, reveals its long-veiled truth through his words, weaving past through luminous corridors of consciousness and awakening. Wild. So, the story behind this is he was doing trance work with certain psychics, and there was this one psychic called, what was it, Peter Herkes, or was it? Yeah. Harry Stone. Harry Stone. Harry Stone. Harry Stone. So, he started channeling and writing hieroglyphs suddenly, And my dad, of course, didn't really know what was being written. So, he started studying ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. And it turned out he was talking about this mushroom as a way to open up people to become more perceptive. So, that's basically when he got interested in the mushroom and did a lot of research into that. Went out to find. There's a lot of footage on that as well, isn't there? Yeah. Yeah. Footage? Yeah, my dad made all these. He went to Mexico to film, what was it, rights being conducted by brujas with this mushroom where, like, the donkey was stolen. And they wanted to find out who did it, you know, basic stuff like that. So, they did this ceremony and, you know, and then the brujas said, it's that guy and the donkey's over there. Oh, wow. Yeah, crazy stuff. But that's all on film. It's really old school. But it's real. It's very cool. So, how much did he start experimenting with psychedelics after this? Well, I think even before the, well, around the same time as the mushroom, I know he was involved in early LSD stuff as well. Was he connected to John Lilly? Yes. In fact, John Lilly's the guy who does all the experiments with dolphins and communication with dolphins. And I know Andrea was interested in that, too. But, yeah, they were very close colleagues, yeah. In fact, Buharj told us some story about how, I guess, in Lilly's later life, he had some manic episode. Buharj went and tried to help him and everything. Oh, really? Yeah. But they were very close, yeah. Yeah, he was all, he was on what, ketamine, I think it was, maybe? Yeah. Something. But he thought he was talking to aliens and shit. Yeah. Completely lost it. NASA funded John Lilly to figure out, like, interspecies communication. Yeah. And John Lilly was, like, you know, cutting open the heads of dolphins and, like, experimenting on their brains and shit. Yeah. Like, really probes in their brains trying to figure out, like, telepathy and stuff. Yeah. There's a good film about him. It's all about this woman who was working in his lab with the dolphins at the time. It's, like, the first time she's ever spoken about it. And it came out years ago. Is this the lady that was fucking the dolphin? Yeah, I think. I saw this one. I think it was. Yeah, the dolphin lived in the house with her. Yeah. She, like, filled it with water. Yeah. It's a crazy documentary, dude. Yeah. But I think, to answer your question, yeah, he was involved, I don't know how deeply, but he definitely talks about it in lectures about how the first time they started experimenting with LSD, he was involved with that. And he named— That was in his Army days, too. Yeah. I must not forget that he was put into an Army division where they were doing research into drugs that could enhance soldiers' abilities. And they were experimenting with all kinds of stuff. So, my dad— My dad was put, obviously, on that specific detail. And I even have—I have these booklets at home. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Gatorade. Is it in you? You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Kroger. Fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details. Order forms with marijuana, cocaine on it. And he could just check a list to order all these drugs for his experiments. That's crazy stuff. Yeah. Army Chemical Center. He was stationed there for a long time in the 50s. Yeah. And so he was ordering all these drugs. For what was the purpose of it? Well, I mean, it was for the military. So obviously they didn't want to turn their soldiers into hippies. They wanted to turn them into, you know, fucking hardcore. They didn't want to become anti-war. Yeah. So they were doing all these experiments. What's that movie with, I forget the name of it, where they're experimenting on doing all these experiments on people and trying to make them psychic? What's the name? What's the name of that film? The Manisteric Goats. Yeah, Manisteric Goats. Oh, yeah. Pretty much that. It's pretty much that was what he was doing. Wow. Yeah. But that was because he was, you know, he was drafted. That wasn't voluntary. And when he came out, of course, he was still, he still had his research lab in Maine. And he did a lot of experiments there, too. But I don't think he went on with the LSD or any other drugs. He was just mentally interested in the mushroom. Well, the thing was. This is the, it was the oil of the Amanita muscaria mushroom. You take the oil of it and you rub it into your forehead. And that is apparently what enables the connection to happen where somebody becomes more receptive. Yeah. According to who? Oh, according to him. Did he discover this like in Mexico or something? Or was it, what was this part of like some tribal ritual? I think it was a ritual. Yeah. That he brought back and was experimenting with at his lab. Yeah. That's bonkers, dude. Yeah. And that's a weird mushroom, too, if you look it up. The Amanita? Yeah. Yeah. There's some people. Connected to so many different myths. Exactly. Yeah. Some guy wrote a book about it. You've probably heard of this guy. I can't remember his name, but he kind of took on the mushroom research Pujaric was doing to present day. And he writes about it. He's alive today. Yeah. Yeah. What's his name? I'll remember. But yeah, he kind of like took the torch there and is doing a bunch of experiments with the Amanita. Yeah. Muscaria. So. Yeah. Well, there's that book Road to Eleusis by Carl Ruck and Wasson, Gordon Wasson. Mm-hmm. And where they basically make the case that like all the Eleusinian mysteries that were happening in ancient Greece were like drug, like these, there was this thing that they were drinking. And it was. It was somehow psychedelic and it was some, it was like somehow related to like the origins of religion. And like, if you think about like some of the crazy stuff that you read in these ancient texts, like it seems almost like psychedelic trip, like a psychedelic trip. Oh, yeah. Was it Harry Stone? There you go. Yeah. Is Harry Stone the guy you were talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also. So Aldous Huxley was one of my dad's friends as well. Really? Yeah. He used to come up to the lab. Mm-hmm. No way. Aldous Huxley held me when I was a baby is the story they always told me. That's a cool story. Yeah. Cool story. I don't remember it though. There's a bunch of letters between them from back then. So all of these documents and these tapes that you got, is this stuff that like. Would be considered like classified by the government or that they wouldn't be happy that you have? No, I actually gave all of it to Northwestern University and they're archiving it and it's going to be public. Oh, no way. Yeah. Yeah. Everything I had. But is this the stuff that you think that they were trying to destroy or they didn't want to get out there? I think they were basically, I mean, as I said earlier, it was basically about the ELF stuff at the time. The ELF stuff. The ELF stuff. That's why the house was put down. And that's all the documents and the recordings. That you guys have that you were able to get. That's basically all the channeling stuff where they're talking to the nine. Well, it's a lot of stuff. I mean, so there's stuff that I've acquired that wasn't in the archives that you had. And that stuff could potentially be of concern. You know, there's a researcher named Dick Russell. Do you know him? Sounds familiar. Yeah. He wrote a really good book about JFK assassination and he's been around. He's been around for a while, but he knew Puharich really well. And he went to Devotion, North Carolina, where Puharich was living before he passed away. And he like photocopied all these documents that were sitting around. Did I tell you about this? Because he basically, he went to his house and the caretaker at the time, who I don't remember who it was, who was living with Andrea said, you know, it seems his days are numbered and you should just copy everything you can. Yeah. We don't know what's going to happen to it. So he copied just everything he could kind of get his hands on. And a lot of that stuff were correspondence and documents between Andrea and all these kind of people he was involved with throughout his career, intelligence people, like the stuff that I found. I told you the Alan Dulles correspondence was from that. So there's that stuff that wasn't in the personal archive and in the personal one, he has a lot of the tape recordings. But, you know, who's to say, I mean, maybe cause no one's really listened to it before other than really you. So no. So who's to say that, that it could, I mean, I agree. I mean, I don't think it's, it's obviously I'm not like a wanted person here. I mean, but who's to say that some of that stuff couldn't contain potentially classified, uh, material information. I don't know because I don't think people know what's what's in there and what's on them. Oh, you found a lot of stuff. Yeah. You did some incredible research and you found a lot of stuff in there that I never knew about. Yeah. But there's references in the channeling tapes to Russia and different countries in Israel. So, you know, who, again, it was so long ago, I guess I kind of think like, why would that matter now? But maybe, maybe it seemed like from, um, it seemed like from the stuff that I heard, it seemed to be very much related to. Like geopolitical conflicts, right? Like this is going to happen. We need to do this or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. During the middle East war. Yeah. So, I mean, one thought too, is, you know, the idea of, because there's so many tapes that were saved and I often think like, what, of course you want to, they're your tapes, you're recording them, but it's kind of interesting to think that those were kept all these years, you know? Um, I don't know what the, and goal of, of that was, you know, right. As were they recorded to be given to somebody where they recorded just so he could have them. I mean, I don't know. No, my dad was a very scientific. He recorded everything. He noted down everything in his journals, very specifically and with dates and everything, you know what I mean? He was a scientist, so he didn't, he kept records of everything. Fortunately, you know, cause you were able to. Yeah. Listen to it and decipher a lot of it. But yeah, I think to answer your question, yeah, I think we don't know. Maybe there could certainly be stuff within there that would be considered classified or would be considered dangerous. But you think that the ELF stuff was the most sensitive shit that they were probably trying to keep under wraps more than anything? Well, specifically when the house was burned down. I mean, after that, you know, my dad would get old. He'd be so upset when he had a flat tire and he'd say that the CIA was behind it. You know, that was obviously bullshit, you know, but the house burning down, that was, that was real. And, you know, I, I only, I only know what I know. And Greg's done a lot of digging. Maybe he found some more, something. So after the house burned down, you were already back in the States, right? I was back in the Netherlands. Oh, you're back in the Netherlands. At what point did you come back here? You're back here to spend, to spend time with your dad? Uh, well, he spent, he spent a couple of years in Mexico and actually hooked up with a bunch of yogis because at that point he was obviously, there was a lot of channeling going on and information I've gotten through that, uh, was going to be a world and ending event. And he had to gather these people and go to a certain spot in Mexico. And they were, you know, that kind of stuff, survive, uh, the, the, the catastrophe, whatever. And, um, I was, I was with him in Mexico for about three months. Oh, really? Yeah. It was cool. I learned yoga. Really? Yeah. What were you guys doing down there every day? Just hanging out? Just, you know, camping out. Yeah. Camping out and, and preparing for the end. Living off the grid. And there was a specific date when it was all going to end. When was the date? Was it Easter? I'm terrible at dates. I'm terrible at, but, but listen, that happened like three times. Since I know my dad, we were, you know, somewhere and he had gotten this information that that world was going to end, that we were preparing and he was going to have to pick up the pieces and stuff like that, you know? And, uh, yeah, now we're still here and we're worried about, you know, it happening tomorrow, right? It was Y2K and it was all supposed to be this past Easter. The world was supposed to end. I've gotten, I've gotten a little skeptical. I've, I've sat through many end of the, end of the world, um, uh, events. But, you know, and then he came back and, uh, he lived in, uh, in devotion, uh, for many years. That's where he eventually died too. And, uh. Where is that? North Carolina. North Carolina. Yeah. And were you with him in his final years? Uh, I was with him once in a while because I was still living in the Netherlands. I had my life there. Um, but I would come and visit a lot and take care of him. I would chop wood for him. And, uh, but, you know, he was then, uh, still. Um, investigating a lot of stuff and, and, but he got pretty sick at the end and he had, uh, dementia and, uh, uh, he didn't do much work, uh, after that. He tried to warn people for, and he was making this watch, which was going to protect you against the ELF signal. But that was like a business for him. I'm not sure if that ever really worked. So in the later years of his life, he didn't really do. Right. No, much interesting stuff anymore. Mm. So, uh, and he was haunted by the CIA. Right. Did you, did you find anything from those years? I mean, we'd go around and lecture a lot. Yeah. But did you find interesting documents or? Well, no, of course there's the theory that he, his death was caused by, you know, someone who did not want him around and. How did he die? Uh, they found him at the bottom of the stairs. Either he had a heart attack or he fell down the stairs. He had a big hole in his head. So we never, it was never really determined exactly how he died. How old was he? 76. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Do you believe that there was any foul play in that or do you think it was natural? I think it was natural. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't really. It didn't seem like at that age when he's not active in his research, it doesn't seem like they would be like trying to whack him. You know, well, there is a, what do I know? There's a strange connection in, which is there's a documentary called, um, about Yacobo Grinberg. Have you heard of him? No. He's a Mexican researcher who was very involved in the same kind of stuff. Telepathy, uh, ESP. You should bring something up on this guy. Um, cause the film's really good, but basically here he is here, Mexican neurophysiologist. So. He was very involved in this type of research and what's, and he, and he and Pujarich were very close. And in fact, Andy and, uh. This guy looks like a cult leader. Yeah. They got together in Mexico a couple of times. The point of the story is in, in, um, February, in January of 95, which was a month, less than a month before Pujarich, uh, passed away, this guy disappeared. And to this day, and if you watch the documentary about him, which is really good, they, they have not figured out what's happened to this guy. It's still considered like an open missing person situation. They have no idea what happened to him. And he was very closely, uh, working with Pujarich and just, and he disappeared. No one knows what happened. There's all these theories, you know, he was kidnapped and he's living in some, you know, CIA bunker and doing research for them, but it's very odd. And I'm not suggesting the. Foul play thing with Pujarich. I'm just saying it was, if you look up the dates, it was like within a month, if not less than a month that this guy goes missing Pujarich, you know, dies, uh, the Stargate program, which was investigating psychic phenomena, but the government that, you know, that comes out publicly in 95 as well. Or, oh, really? That's when that was released all the information on Stargate. So that was with the same time. I think, again, you can look at the dates, but it was. That January, February, March 95. So again, I don't want to be the, the conspiracy guy here, but no, I mean, it's just, it's just dots to put together, but I have not found anything when it comes to Andrea, that would suggest foul play. No one's ever, I think one person told me, oh yeah, somebody anymore. I mean, he was walking around in diapers, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't, it wasn't a threat to anybody. Yeah. So I would. I would, do you think there was any sort of like secrets he may have held onto until the end that he may have never told anybody? I doubt it to be quite honest. Cause he would still go around and lecture a lot and then he would, you know, he would elaborate on everything he had done. It was an open book, huh? Yeah. Well, I, I have a comment on that because, uh, you know, in the film, in the beginning, there's a tape recording of Pujarich that, that you hear, and that was done in. In 1995, which was the year he, he died and that tape was recorded by Dick Russell, this researcher, I told you, who went to the house and photocopied everything, he went to the hospital and said, you know, I want to get one last interview with this guy, because, you know, I think at the time Dick Russell was trying to write a book about MK ultra stuff. So he was like, I want to interview this guy, Pujarich, because I mean, a, he's not well. B is very important. Someone needs to get one last statement from him. So he gave me that. tape and on that tape he basically asks like the same question you ask in a sense like is there anything you haven't said or do you know things that should be revealed and and buharaj answers and he and he says yeah it's my it's what i discovered of how you can channel and communicate with ets using the faraday cage method and that was that a secret no because obviously he was open about it but i think there was something specific about the fair a certain way you set up the faraday cage that was very machine and the td machine that there was some tv machine the td 100 machine from earlier the hearing machine so there's some weird combination between putting someone in a faraday cage having them linked up to this hearing machine and and channeling and receiving information there's some weird something happens with that combination that he's claiming on this tape is a way that is like a you know surefire way you can communicate and contact entities and other dimensions and he says this is the thing that the government was all over me about and again is he say that on tape yeah okay so is he was he out of his mind was he recorded yes you have this yes can we hear it well and i don't have it now i mean i can yeah we can i can show you but so again that raises some questions you know was he just old delusion but or did he really see this as an opportunity to say one final thing like that i don't know but all i know is dick russell wanted to record him when he was very at the end of his life and he says this and what do you make of that i mean that's kind of interesting because my dad never was in the hospital well he went he went there one time i think before he was let go and went back home because you can clear you can hear the you know the machines in the background and the the dinging and he was there with that woman um um marianne shenefield remember that woman marianne she was like a psychic that oh my she she was with him right so he was there with that woman and he was there with that woman so apparently there was some incident before he passed away where he had to go for a day or something and get an iv or something like that okay so so that that's what i know is that true is that i don't know but he he's kind of admitting like that's the one thing that's real and tangible that he sort of discovered and the faraday cage idea to me is so wild because like one of my out there things that i've been doing for a long time is like i've been doing this for a long time is that like all the technology we're surrounded by 24 7 and like the fucking cell towers that are around us and all the power lines and all the lighting and the electricity we're surrounded by sort of like dims our senses and like keeps us docile and maybe like shuts the door to any kind of like extra thing that might be out there that we can sense right and i think like my conspiratorial mind is like maybe that's on purpose they're just trying to keep us dumb and concealed so we can't you know reach a higher consciousness and it's just so interesting because you hear stories people going like the amazon and like all of a sudden like like their senses open up and they can like just by listening to the sounds of the birds and the insects and all that they can like detect things that they wouldn't normally be able to detect or like sense danger in a certain way they could never detect in a city and the fact that you can put somebody in a faraday cage completely shut out from all of that stuff like technology and radio waves and signals you should build one it's just very interesting it's very interesting make this whole room a faraday that would be incredible we should do that well you know so we wouldn't have wi-fi steven oh he can hardwire your computer right some people can't handle that i've heard stories like i mean you've actually been in your dad's faraday cage which is great but you know some people can't handle it they go in and it's so quiet that they they just like shut down and they can't be in there but because of how different and just how off they are yeah because this is so quiet they're not you because like you're saying you're so bombarded all the time that to go i'd be curious to see what that what would happen yeah well it also it leaves room for whatever other things that come through that are not affected by uh by physiology by our physics the mind i mean that's obviously why my dad did those experiments in the faraday cage to see if people you know would get images through their mind and that works that certainly works because you're shielded from everything else right so the stuff that's you know from a different dimension or whatever that does pass through that's what makes it really interesting how do you build a faraday cage oh it's very simple you just make a copper sheeted uh box uh my dad used to put some i think a high frequency signal on it but i don't even think you need it you need to ground it okay it's very basic really but it has to be totally sealed shut so nothing no leaks or anything did you ever go in his oh yeah all the time really oh yeah all the time i used to sit there and meditate it was incredible what was it yeah what was it yeah very quiet very quiet and then very you know you feel like i mean i can imagine why people would get upset because you feel totally alone and isolated but if you meditate you you know it feels really really good so and it was soundproofed as well so it was really a very quiet spot to be in but he did a lot of a lot of sessions with mediums in there so a lot of most of the channeling you did would do would be in the faraday cage for that reason see the thing that is not talked about a lot is my dad was obviously also a very spiritual man because he pretty much discovered that everything that makes psychic powers possible is uh the part of us that we call soul or conscious or whatever you know that's that's the the main thing that makes us what we are you know everything else around it is is i don't know what you call it earlier it's just you know yeah one of the most interesting things that i think isak bentoff said was that we don't have souls souls have us and we're like bodies are like carburetors for a car like a soul will change its carburetor every hundred years and find a new body exactly that was kind of that kind of blew my mind a little bit yeah oh man that's very interesting to think about you know i mean i mean you know what what are we are we uh we're obviously animals but we're obviously also animals with uh incredible capabilities and and you know the boundary between us and animals is enormous yeah there's obviously something there that makes us special and the soul is omnipowerful i mean and that's the thing that can bend metal if you can you know if you can set yourself free enough to allow that to happen which is incredibly hard you know so we are kind of imprisoned soul is imprisoned in the body but the soul is on the soul is on route the soul is the thing that consciousness is what the universe is made of that's what my dad told me you know it's consciousness it's we're all looking at the stars and now we're looking at the backside of the moon and it's all very interesting but the whole he said the whole universe is made of consciousness it's conscious that creates matter yes yes yeah it certainly makes a ton of sense and it's also very interesting how like young children are more open to this stuff than like adults who exactly because we get boxed in by our own thoughts and by our own perceptions yeah they've already been hardened to the world and had their their reality constructed for them and like kids who you know they seem to have like more kind of like you know how kind of like sometimes like a cat will freak out us at something because like you know something's in a room you'll think like oh my god my cat's seen a ghost you know and like dogs can sense things like sometimes dogs don't want to be around certain people or go in certain houses or even if humans you can there's i'm sure there's times you've walked into a room and felt like the energy is just off here you know like that's certainly real with animals it seems like and i'm sure like a young child who has not been sort of indoctrinated by the modern world yet or even learned my language yet can somehow tap into that same stuff you know there's a lot of children that have recollection of past lives oh yeah yeah which they you know which they lose very early on in life but young children often have you know vivid images of life well that was a big part of the research with the space kids yeah this idea that under hypnosis they would reveal this past life of being from another planet that was a big aspect of my dad's work really was you know i don't know if you know about the space kids program he yeah who were the space kids space kids were basically um mostly young people that's why would have certain abilities and he wanted to develop them and basically he had them come together at his house and and tried to educate him and took him into Faraday cage did sessions with him put him in trance to see what you know what they would reveal but basically he thought these kids were had extra powers or whatever and he wanted to use them use in quotes educate them in how to make come make a transformation in the world of some kind but this was also all all channeled to him that he should do these things and get these groups together I was in one of these space kids groups myself once one summer and you know he had people come in that taught us about our dreams thought it about hypnosis taught us about the soul what we really are and you know he tried to educate these young people's and then later on and that was the mind link summer with that I wasn't there that I didn't attend that you talk about in the end of documentary a lot it was basically this big group of space kids and and adults and other researchers they all joined at Austin and his house and they did this big mind link where apparently they and I don't know if you experienced this part of it but they would do you have these sessions where they would go like days without talking to one another and they would just try to build their minds they wanted to literally link link their minds for what was the purpose you know well I was the purpose that we suspect from looking at his writings and so forth is basically like they thought that with enough people in a circle with all of their minds tuned to the right frequency at the right time that that could bring in a stronger connection to you know at an entity in another dimension and the person sitting in the middle was the receiver so all the people around were putting the energy to that person in the middle and apparently there's stories that it was so intense that the first woman who was going to be the receiver in the middle like fainted and had needed medical attention so they had to bring in a younger person to do it so that all those stories make you just question like what's what's going on here you know why would this be this hoaxed you know event it is this strange well like and then there's also videos of of exorcists like pulling demons out of people on stage yeah you know and like people like you've seen the videos of the guy who like who like goes attack demon or whatever and like throws this invisible force at these people and their belief is so strong in like demons and angels and all this stuff this guy's fucking convinced them that they have a demon or whatever and then he like cast the demon away and the person will literally fall like fly ten feet backwards yeah you know it's like the power of belief mmm is so incredibly strong you know it's like what the mind is capable of it's like almost impossible to comprehend like how much of this is is just insatiable belief in something yeah this this guy bro I don't think this was necessarily happening and but there's also videos of like Bob you know Bob Larson this exorcist guy we had on who would do exorcisms on people right and and like like picking people out of the crowd and then like this young girl would like start talking in tongues like like Satan is like channel like they're channeling Satan and it's like is this person really just acting for the camera or is that do they actually believe because this exorcist is there telling them they're possessed by the devil is this some sort of like subconscious thing that's like coming forth you know I don't know yeah well and it's strange and to give a more concrete example of like what they were doing that the mind link and the group the space kids are like it's like um you know Buhar should often talk about this idea that he was receiving higher physics from these entities and and that he certain people like we talked about this woman Sharon who uh was this psychic that he worked with who apparently was very you know like much better than a lot of the other people who were there at receiving and and she would bring through equations and and physics and things that puharich I think believed were a higher form or a different type of physics that was coming from another world and he felt as though if he could get more and enough of it that he could write it all down and make sense of it and sort of Usher in this whole new way of thinking about the universe and thinking about okay this is how the communication works between us and these entities so a lot of times these space kids would channel like weird information equations and things that had to do with technology and weird formulas and he and I think a big part of it was Buhart saying let me try to make sense of this and let me try to get more of this yeah but that goes right to your point is like and that's the weird thing about the channeling that I always thought is like how is a you know 22 year old girl sitting there and just and and just saying okay I guess I'm just gonna make all this stuff up now and just start saying it I mean it's possible but it just seems odd like there's something else going on i don't know what is it a being talking through her i know i don't know but it does seem like there's something weird with the mind and the people and the connection and something because i just find it unlikely you know again we were talking like a lot of channel stuff i'm sure is is bogus but i just find it unlikely that a lot of these people especially back then yeah the people he was working with were just like making it that that's it that's the answer they were all just making it up and it it's some of this stuff i just think even people who were around back then would say like oh this woman was no way she wouldn't be able to even like come up with this kind of thing you know with all due respect she's just not smart intelligent enough to just make stuff up like this so it's very uh complex yeah so i i just don't rule it all all away with it's just people making it up wasn't there some connection to nik uh tesla wasn't he writing tesla or something no yes did i make that up no no no no my dad obviously my dad was really interested in the work of nikola tesla and all the technology he came up with the manuscript we're talking about about the elf is called uh um tesla's magnifying transmitter and the elf because that's basically what that transmitter was was a nikola tesla invention you know and tesla i mean that's you know there's a lot of mysteries about tesla as well what did he invent did he you know did he take inventions to the grave did were all of his inventions taken by the government right you know and all that stuff well there's that whole trump weird trump connection is what was it his uncle or something oh yeah trump's uncle yeah yeah he was connected to townsend brown yeah and he took all these tesla uh patents or something uh i can't remember the exact connection but it was it was either his uncle or something yeah it was his uncle yeah it was came into possession of all these tesla patents that no one has ever had before and he's the one who somehow has them yeah he was connected dude trump's uncle was connected to like all these people in like aerospace research including like townsend brown who created this uh this way uh this propulsion called electrogravitics which was like i can't even explain it in words but it's like basically you know it's kind of it has a lot to do with like how the the stealth bomber was engineered and all this stuff and allegedly there's claims that um a lot of it went dark and went like private into like the military like black budget sector that doesn't see the light of day yeah i personally did a lot of research into tesla i even wrote a film script about him i went to all the places where he worked and where he was born and where he lived really yeah i did a lot of research and what i found was that tesla is a very good product and i think it's a very good product what i came up with is that um you know obviously at the end of his life or during his life he was always depending on funding right because he didn't make any money he needed his research to be funded and what happens is um you always make the story a little better when you're looking for funding right because because you want the funding and he was very dramatic he would put on these big shows and he would you know display all these things he was working on but a lot of it uh kind of never really worked but he was just trying to get funding so he kind of exaggerated uh his findings and the technology and i think a lot of that's been blown out of proportion yeah you know you know you know what i'm saying yeah totally yeah and i think that i've seen my dad do exactly the same thing he was working on his water splitting invention where uh he said he he worked on it for a long time he had this he was splitting uh water into oxygen and hydrogen uh where you know you put in less energy than came out so it's like almost a free energy device and he worked on it for a long time i worked on on that with him and i know that in the and in the end the results were not were what he was looking for - Yeah. - But he was being backed by certain people. So he kind of manipulated the outcome a little bit. That's when I saw how that mechanism works. You know, you're trying to get funding. - Right. - And you exaggerate it a little bit. Now you can read on the internet everywhere that my dad did this invention and, you know, and there's a lot of people trying to copy it and, you know. - It's basically using water as fuel. - Stories like that get out of hand. - Using water as fuel? - That was the gist of it, is basically you could power your automobile with. - Well, yeah, I mean, if you split hydrogen into, I mean, water into hydrogen and oxygen, you have the best fuel there is, you know. Hydrogen burns with oxygen and the result is water. Problem is you have to put in so much energy to split it that it's not worth doing it. I mean, they make hydrogen by electrolysis. I think that's what it's called in English, electrolysis. - Electrolysis. - Electrolysis, right. - Yeah. - So my dad was inventing a way of putting, you know, using his TD-100 device to split the water in a more economical way so you would get energy. - Wow. - And people claim, like, I never saw any evidence to this, but that he was driving around in his RV. - Yeah, well, that's the story he said. He was driving his RV around Canada, Mexico. - Powered by water? - Yeah, on the water. But unfortunately. - Wasn't true. - It was not true. - Well, the big conspiracy is that guy, who did invent some sort of water powered car, was found killed. - Was whacked. - Yeah. Stanley something. - Yeah. - But I think, if I'm not mistaken, what Andre was doing was much before this. He could have somehow ripped off, taken what he was doing and went further. - Hey, listen, his research, I mean, it was really good. And I worked on the project with him and we, you know, we would machine parts together and stuff and, you know, come up with new ways of experimenting. But, you know, the amount of energy, and eventually we went to some university, I forget where it was, to have the whole system tested with machines that were calibrated properly. So you could get a real truthful reading on the amount of energy you were putting in and the amount of energy you're putting out. And I remember well how depressed my dad was because the results were not good. - Yeah. - You know? So, you know, a lot of stuff, and I think the same thing happened with Tesla. I think a lot of his so-called incredible inventions that were, you know, never replicated were kind of blown out of proportions by himself. - Wasn't Tesla able to create like an earthquake device that like resonated and could bring down a building? - Yeah, but that's- - Was that fake or was that real? - No, that's real. - That was real. - That's regular physics. You can do that. You can make something resonate if you find the right- - I heard a story they were doing a test or something, like in the bottom of a building and it started to collapse on them or something. - Yeah, in New York. Yeah, that was in New York. That was real. - That's a true story, yeah. Yeah, and he smashed the device to stop it 'cause he had built a device which was basically working by itself. I mean, resonant frequency is really interesting. That's what the TD-100 device is about. You know, if you can get something to resonate in its own frequency, it's going to fall apart eventually. And you can, you know- - Wow. - I mean, it's really interesting stuff, definitely. But there's so many big labs all over the world experimenting with this stuff. And, you know, nobody's come up with a true free energy device so far. - That we know of. - That we know of, true. That I will not deny. - And that's what leads to all the crazy conspiracy theories, you know, surrounding Tesla, right? Because if he was able to create shit like that, that's not something you hear about today. Like who uses a fucking earthquake machine? You know, I mean, I can imagine what it could be used for, like in a nefarious way by like a nation state or something, or like stuff like that. But like, how did Tesla die? - Alone in his hotel room. - But it was raided, right? That's the story. - Well, afterwards he was, he probably was raided by officials or whatever. They took all his documents. - So is there like a conspiracy behind how he was killed? Like, was he, or does- - You would know better than I do. - He was a very old, sick guy. - He was? - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was really old and he wasn't doing anything anymore. He was going out and feeding the pigeons every day. - Yeah. - You know, that kind of scenario. - Yeah, one of the, another, you know, on the subject of like how the truth can get blown out of proportion over time is, I had this gentleman on the podcast a couple of years ago, Christopher Dunn, who wrote a book about, called "The Giza Power Plant." Basically how he thinks like the Great Pyramid was like some sort of a machine to create energy. And this guy was like, he was an aerospace engineer. And you know, when he first discovered the pyramid, it looked at like the inside of it and all the chambers and how it was built. He's like, oh my God. He's like, this thing is like a functional, this thing was built as to, for some purpose. And it had some function. Like this was a clearly a machine. And there he found there's a lot of theories out there that like Tesla was obsessed with the pyramids and people think that they were like a free energy device or whatever. And he like dug deeper into it. And I think he said there was absolutely zero connection between Tesla and the pyramids. - Oh yeah. - Like, yeah, that was one of the shocking things to me. He's like, yeah, he's like, I've found no evidence that Tesla was ever interested in the pyramids or even went to the pyramids at all. - Yeah, I haven't found any evidence. - And I'm like, wow, because you Googled Tesla and the pyramids, the shit's everywhere. - Yeah, my dad was very interested in the pyramids. He was actually able to spend a couple of nights alone in the Pyramid of Giza. - Yeah, yeah, there's a crazy frequency inside, I've heard. - Yeah, he wanted to feel and measure and. - We have the tapes he recorded himself in the pyramid. And he did a channeling session with a space kid. Yeah. - In the pyramid, in like one of the chambers, like the King's Chamber. - Yeah, so they're in the King's Chamber. He was with, it was him, it was Solveig Clark, who was a woman who was, I don't know, we would say an assistant or. - Assistant. - Yeah, they were engaged at some point. - Yeah, she was like, yeah, helped him with stuff. And so it was Puharich, her, and then this space kid, who's this woman who at the time was named Anne. She's since changed her name. She's actually in the film. She's one of the space kids, but they went and they did a session in there and they were trying to telepathically link with the people back in Ossining at his house. So the session is basically this space kid. Linking up with people back there and they were exchanging information and she was. - This is recorded. - Yeah, and she was saying like, I can see them now. And what are they doing? And Melanie, they say, everything's fine here. And they're communicating. Yeah, and you know, his theory of course, too, is like you're saying because of the frequency in the pyramid, that is sort of like a mega Faraday cage effect where it's just like, you know, the Faraday cage effect times a million because you're in there. And so that made them like super receptive. - Well, you know that the pyramid was originally covered in copper, right? - No. - Yeah, I mean, now. - Is that a fact? - Yeah, I think that's a fact. I'm not positive, but I think that they found that originally it was totally covered in copper. And of course all the copper was stolen over the years. - Well, that's really interesting. - You should look that up. - I heard that there were cases. - There were casing stones on the outside of it. I didn't hear that there was copper. - Well, 'cause copper is the whole thing with the Faraday cage and apparently the nine in the early channeled sessions, the nine would say you have to use more copper and copper is the key to this kind of communication. And so much so that they would say, if you're the psychic you're working with, they should put on a copper bracelet. - I built all that. I was the one making all the copper bracelets. - Yeah, because of the copper. - And copper's the connection with your skin. That's enabling the communication to happen easier with less, better transmission. So all these people were in this little bracelet that had like a copper little rectangle that was connected to their skin. - With the crystal. - Really? - So, I mean, that pyramid, I never knew about that pyramid thing, but that's pretty interesting. - Yeah, I can't, and I'm not sure if I heard this correctly or if I'm recalling it correctly, but I think, can you look that up? If he's looking it up. - He's looking it up. - So, well, I'll show you what the AI shows. - Steve's an AI guy. - He says no. - Oh, that's cool. - He says no, but I did find some stuff about that the Egyptians did use a shit ton of copper, enough that it polluted their area. - Yeah, copper was one of the metals they used for tools and stuff. Copper, they had copper tools and pounding stones. Allegedly, that's how they built the pyramid. - Yeah, right. - And Buhari was also very early on, talking about the pyramid connection, the one in China, Egyptian pyramids and these different ones around the globe and how they're all connected and that kind of thing, which I think is now being talked about a lot more and looked into. He was talking about that in early '70s. - I'm really curious, Steve. What can you find? Is there any known sort of effect of copper on skin? If you wear copper jewelry, is there any sort of, I don't know, benefits? Like health benefits or sort of like. Well, don't you remember when the pandemic was going on? Apparently, if you use copper, copper repels any germs. Really? Yeah. I have never heard that. Oh, yeah. You've never heard that? No. Have you heard that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Copper, if you wear copper, the germs will not stick to copper. They don't like it. Tell me if I'm lying. I could be wrong. But I remember I made this little copper stick at the time that I would use to touch things. Wow. In the beginning when I was very paranoid. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. But yeah, all this space. I mean, one of them. Copper is a really interesting metal. I mean, it has all these spectacular properties that have been used all over the place. Any luck, Steve? Yes. Find me a copper conspiracy, bro. There's something about copper that's very important, too. Yeah. Copper does not have widely proven physiological benefits. I don't know if Steve's like a. He's a Google bootlicker. He just likes to find whatever the consensus is at Google AI. Copper does not have any proven physiological benefits when worn as jewelry, though it is a potent antimicrobial and effectively kills most germs on contact. What? Yeah. There you go. A metal kills germs? Yeah. Why am I just learning this today? I don't know. Okay. Copper is an essential. An essential trace mineral for human health when ingested, aiding in red blood cell formation and bone health. The benefits of wearing are largely anecdotal and not supported by rigorous scientific evidence. Pain and arthritis. Clinical trials have repeatedly shown that copper bracelets are generally ineffective in managing pain, stiffness, or physical function in patients with osteoarthritis or rheumatoid arthritis. Hmm. Skin health. Skin health. Some studies on copper-infused fabrics, like socks or pillowcases, suggest that they can improve skin elasticity, reduce fine lines, and even treat fungal infections like athlete's foot. That is bizarre. So think that the Faraday cage that was used during these channeling sessions was lined with copper. So what's that about? That's interesting. Copper's weird, huh? It's a great insulator. Yeah. Basically, not much can get through. Hmm. All right. All our wires are made of copper, too. I'm making a note for myself. Good insight. I think you guys definitely got to. Copper. Shit. Wear copper clothes. Line your whole studio with copper, Ed. You definitely got to build a Faraday cage in here. That would be cool. But I don't know the logistics of doing that. Is there any downside other than the price of turning this into a Faraday cage? I don't know if phones would work in a cage. Well, you could just build one out there. Like a freestanding one. Well, no one's cell phone will work in here. They don't have to turn them off anymore. That's cool. Right. That's very cool. There's a guy out there who I got connected with who's trying to replicate a lot of the Faraday cage ESP experiments. And he was wanting to see some of the early research Buharich did in his documents because he was one of these guys I was connected with, Skywatcher, the whole Skywatcher thing. It was popular. It kind of faded out. It was like last year, the psionic assets. Oh, yes. Yes. I remember that. It was a guy involved with that. And he was very interested in the Faraday cage stuff. And he was like, I want to look at the original design of Buharich's Faraday cage. And apparently he had money. He's like, I want to replicate this and try to do these experiments. And I don't know where it went. But he was very serious about it. Interesting. Because that's what's interesting, too. I mean, just, you know, a lot of people. You don't see people doing these kinds of experiments anymore. You know, psychic kids and Faraday kids. The whole principle of the Faraday cage isn't all that complicated. All you just need is a metal casing. And if something is totally in case of a metal, nothing will get through. And copper is really a good metal to use for it. I would love to see a Faraday cage sensory deprivation tank all in one. What would that? That would probably fucking teleport your ass to another. I wonder if anyone's ever done that, bro. And then combine that with like, you know, some psychedelic mushrooms or something or even marijuana. I'm sure it would be nuts. Because John Lilly was, he invented the sensory deprivation tank, I think, right? There's a whole documentary about that. Yeah, a friend of mine did one of those for the first time recently. He was saying it was just mind blowing. Yeah. The sensory deprivation thing. Never done it. Yeah, I've never done it either. But I would be super, I would certainly be interested in it, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And so in the Faraday cage channeling sessions, I don't know if I asked you this already, but like, how much were psychedelics incorporated into those, if ever? Never? Maybe. I mean, obviously people that showed up on my dad's house were using marijuana. I mean, you know. Right, right. It's popular. Yeah, very popular in the time. And my dad was opposed to it, old. But yeah, I'm sure it's been used. And of course, you know, talk about the mushroom. Right. And, you know, used the book. And wasn't there somebody involved in all of this that was connected to Bell Laboratories or something? Yeah, Arthur Young. Right. Okay. Yeah. What was his connection? He was part of the Roundtable Foundation. Yeah. Yeah. In the early 50s. Okay. So he was there at the lab a lot. And he was part of the early experiments. He was sitting in on a lot of the sessions. But, you know, to go back to the whole origin of the nine and the conspiracies, Arthur Young, he was married to, you might have to look this up, Steve, because I don't, I'm not sure I'm correct. He was married to Ruth Forbes Payne, who was the woman. He was married to a woman who, Lee Harvey Oswald, was living at her house. And he has some very bizarre connection to- Oh, I remember we talked about this last- Lee Harvey Oswald. And so people think, oh, you know, this is somehow tied into the JFK assassination and crazy stuff. But who, but yeah, Young was married to someone- This is not in the film, this connection, right? No, no. Lavenda, Peter Lavenda, that author, he writes- He told me this. He writes tons of stuff about this. I was like wondering, I'm like, this feels like deja vu. I remember. Peter Lavenda told me this story. Yeah. And so Young was connected to somebody who was extremely connected to Lee Harvey Oswald. And so there's that whole thing. But no, he was just like a new age kind of researcher who, yeah, invented the Bell helicopter, very connected guy. He went on to start this consciousness research society in Berkeley and everything. But he was involved very early on. In fact, in some of those early channeling tapes with Dr. Vinod, you can hear him, asking questions. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. I didn't know that. And isn't there some sort of connection with all of this and this, the Montauk thing, Montauk, New York or something? Well, yeah, I guess like people, yeah. So this, you know, the Stranger Things, the show is apparently based off the Montauk program or Montauk project, which is Montauk, New York, Long Island. And apparently there was some facility there that was some government facility that, you know, was doing research with kids and psychic kids and teleportation and the whole Philadelphia experiment and teleporting. I mean, Tesla had something to do with that, right? The Trent teleporting the ship. Did you hear that story? There's so much about it. I'm not sure if Tesla was actually involved with that, but it was. It's based maybe on something. Annie Jacobson writes about in her phenomena book about the Philadelphia experiment, how they were doing crazy tests on sailors. Yeah, that's, that's what it was. Like shooting them with directed energy weapons. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we'll be right back. So when I was trying to make this film, you know, one of my first thoughts was, okay, let's try to get ahold of these space kids. Cause you know, at the time in the seventies, they were teenagers, but it was actually difficult. I mean, so Heidi was one of like 10, because in one of Barge's notebooks, he had a list of all the people who were there. At the time. So I did basically just went through and was like, okay, Google, Facebook, trying to find people. But only a few of them were willing to, to talk really, really a reason. The film actually took so long is that it really took a while to earn the trust of some of these space kids, because, you know, they haven't come out before to tell this story. They've never been public. Was there anyone that you really wanted to talk on film that you couldn't get? Yes, this woman, Sharon, which is a good transition, this woman. So one of the space kids, so this woman is one of the space, cause I was willing to talk and she's in the film. She's very nice. She was actually at the house during the fire. She had to jump, climb out the window and climb down the, on the roof. And so she had quite an experience there, but there was one space kid, Sharon, who if you recall, when when we talked, I was kind of hesitant to bring up certain name of one of the space kids because she was so involved and secretive and all this but it's this woman sharon who has changed her name many times i think back then it was sharon jacobson but i know at one point she went by mccann right her maiden name is mccann and then she married uh this guy called jacobson jacobson yeah yeah so she was one of the space kids who was very involved there's a lot of pictures of her but a lot of the channeling tapes is her it's her voice it's her doing the channeling really and so many people and you can i mean you knew her but the the point is a lot of people involved back then the space kids and some of the scientists like they thought that she was the equivalent of you know 11 from stranger things you know this like very talented legitimate real psychic who could do things who could bring in information so after a certain year i don't know 76 or something she just disappeared and a lot of people around i mean you can comment um we're like we have no idea what happened to her we don't know where she went we've never been able to talk to her i went to great lengths to try to find this woman i mean literally hiring a pi basically at one point right because she's so important because she's on so many tapes she was so involved and i was like if there's one person to get to talk about this story to talk about what was really going on it'd be her and she's completely mysterious i've never no one's ever been able to contact her um so that's one of the people that like it'd be so interesting if she saw this film and saw this or whatever and came out of the woodworks yes ron if you if you're watching just come on yeah you know well yeah he oh yeah yeah i knew her very well what was she like what was so special about her i think basically what was special about her is what she channeled i mean apart from that she was just a a woman with a child and i would go uh shopping with her you know but in the channeling and her channeling she was as you say apparently uh she had all the scientific information that would would be channeled through her that's what made her special yeah she was the one who was able to bring through this very complex physics and apparently for whatever reason the other space kids couldn't and she could she was the only one who in trance in the faraday cage would bring through very very advanced information and so he puharich is really like leaning on her a lot to do a lot of these sessions and then there's stories that she how old was she at the time late 20s in the late 20 mid late 20s but then there's stories i don't know if you know any truth to this that apparently due to the intensity of the channeling and the session she had some sort of yeah i was there manic break or something yeah she totally fell apart we had to rush it to the hospital what yeah there was talk about negative energy being influenced and and we were doing a session there was a lot of us gathered around and she fell apart in my and then my father was a medical doctor but he rushed her to the hospital because she was dying basically yeah i don't know why well there's this idea that when somebody so this other channel phyllis the older woman that he worked with a lot there's this idea that when you get into the state to channel your body you know it's a typical uh your body's being taken over by another entity and basically you don't have control over your body or your functions because it's being controlled by an outside entity so there's stories of this other woman too having similar i don't know if there's anything that bad but she would have incidents where she would be you know collapse or needed medical attention because she wasn't in control of her of her body while doing these sessions so sharon yeah she's one of the um the people that i was like man i wish she would have talked to me about these sessions she's one of the um the people that i was like man i wish she would have talked to me about these sessions she's one of the um the people that i was like man i wish she would have talked but at the same time it leaves this mystery now to this story of there's this one space kid who was the the best of them all who has just dropped off the face of the earth who and everyone he very normal you know sane people who knew her or who were around every one of them was like yeah i have no idea what happened to her really strange she just kind of how many people did you try to did you talk to that knew her several so yeah several one of the guys in the film uh this that guy leon berg he was a guy from london and he got involved and he was just sort of um like a helper it wasn't really a psychic or anything but he knew her very well and he was like i'm going to try to find her for you and it was really creepy we did like the classic thing where we found this address on google earth that came up on one of these sites as her address and we go to it on google earth and it's just this like ramshackle you know how empty house and there's you know it's basically run down and all her other addresses didn't come up with anything so it's it's weird i mean i don't know what to say other than maybe she just wanted to distance herself and there's no nothing weird about it but it does seem like she's making a very serious effort to not be discovered or not be looked up so she's the one that i was like man that would be cool but are there any photos of her anywhere many they're in the film yeah okay blonde hair is very pretty can you find them steve i don't they wouldn't come up on google there's nothing oh no they're only in your movie you can't find anything on her literally wow yeah even this like pi i mean i don't know if it's like legal to talk about if what a pi but i don't he even he was like yeah i don't i'm not coming up with anything here but there's nothing that would indicate that she passed away because you know back then she was young i mean it's not like now she would be really old she'd still be so she was in her 20s in what year what year would that have been mid mid 70s yes what decade rather um 70s mid to late 70s oh okay so that's that's a thing and um yeah i don't i don't know what i mean so when she went to the hospital what ended up happening do you know do you remember well they saved her i mean obviously and she was about to die well yeah my father couldn't uh couldn't get her vitals back so holy yeah it was there was real panic i remember that well it was a real panic so yeah but you know there's there's there was a bunch of other uh space kids were that were interesting as well interesting people interesting abilities well that goes back to the like so you're gonna you're gonna hoax you know almost dying here you know so there's so many things that happened in this story that you know once you're kind of skeptical all of a sudden you're like well that's a pretty serious event to kind of just yeah have been you know made up but it all goes back to this idea that the body's being taken over kind of like an exorcism thing i guess because it's not you and you're channeling a different different entity and so forth so so she's somebody who yeah it'd be really interesting if she came out after all this but who knows yeah like if they're together on if they're channeling it like i guess they're they're channeling these so the nine are what they were channeling yes okay well siobhan wasn't channeling the nine she was channeling some other entity well yeah there was different entities all the time that would sort of come through that had various names that were very kind of sci-fi sounding but if i'm not mistaken the nine were kind of the the they were above everything head honchos yeah so even if it was a different entity they were still they were above the rothschilds yeah yeah wow that's crazy they called me tesla they would always no seriously it said i was nikola tesla in my past lifetime i believe it yeah no i i rejected it my my son my uh my oldest son who's six has a girl in his class that says she vividly remembers her past life she was a dog and she knows the name of the dog i can't remember the name of the dog huh well poor dog yeah she came back as a human came back to you and had such a good life i've often thought of giving my i have a two-year-old daughter and giving her a spoon and you know seeing if she could bend it somehow do you imagine she starts bending it yeah what the would you do yeah exactly that's a good question what would you do no the thing i wanted to mention though is the so the montauk project yeah so the whole myth behind that is that there was apparently this government facility in montauk long island where they were experimenting with every weird thing you could imagine teleportation um uh time travel devices but but they were apparently doing research on kids there psychic kids yeah and that was apparently the basis behind strange or things the show right and there's some guy who claimed to have it's kind of like lazar and s4 there's this guy his name's preston nichols you can look him up preston nichols yeah n-i-c-h-o-l-s he he claimed to have worked there so he's very much like lazari he's kind of came out and he's like i worked at this place i know what was going on i witnessed a time travel but you know he's it's just like lazar people are all over him they think he's full of shit and stuff but that was the basis of um stranger things but from what i understand like there's really no evidence that this montauk facility was real like i think it's really well there was a facility there for sure it's like a building it's like you can actually go and see it but there's really no evidence as far as i understand that there was actually this top secret program happening there whereas the roundtable foundation that buharich ran was a very real place where they actually were doing psychic experiments on kids as far back as the 50s because some of the stuff in his records uh which uh we discovered was that even back in the 50s it was the air force office of scientific research that gave him a grant to do research with these two twins that were in the military and he was in the military and he was in the military and they were apparently psychic and it was you know their father said my two daughters are psychic they it's kind of like the telepathy tapes kind of stuff they can read my mind they know what i'm thinking they're yeah they're totally accurate so the air force office of scientific intelligence they came to the roundtable lab and funded like research with these two girls and this was like in the 50s and then there was another instance where it was another young person that came there as well and was studied and so that's a place where this actually did happen i mean there's documented proof wow whereas i think the montauk thing i could be wrong but i'm pretty sure there's there's never really been anything that proves like that there was actually that stuff happening there what is your take on the whole telepathy telepathy tapes stuff both of you have you are you familiar with the telepathy tapes no it's these children these non-verbal autistic children who are able to communicate telepathically and there's like a whole podcast about it yeah it became very popular i listened to it and i i i think that it's i think there's something there i mean i think unfortunately like all of this stuff what puharich dealt with decades ago and what is still happening is just the onslaught of of um skeptics beyond telepathy that's his first book that's his first book and it's also been republished uh recently they reference that and the telepathy tapes a bunch in the first couple of do they really yeah that's how my dad that's how it all started you know him researching people that um you were able to do telepathy and the interesting thing about telepathy is of course that you always need to oh mitch horowitz yeah he wrote the introduction he's cool well danny i went to say you know so my answer to that is i i do tend to think that there's some really interesting information that points to that's that being legitimate these autistic kids who can somehow communicate non-verbally but then you've got you know what was it the mother of one of them she she you were uh you spoke to her with the test and everything and and and i and i think there's situations like that that seem very suspicious suspicious and very easily debunked and like we got into earlier just people who are kind of getting on that bandwagon yeah but um and there was a good interview with her yeah and there's there's even you know going back to what i said earlier about those mentalist folks that oz perlman yeah said that he can rep he can do any of the stuff that those telepathy tape kids are doing yeah he said he can do it demonstrate it very easily and he said that and one of my my problem with the telepathy tapes is they won't entertain that they won't entertain a stage magician going in and observing yeah that thing happened because their excuse or whatever that what they say is is that that will throw off the energy in the room and then they won't be able to perform their experiments well that's the classic yeah that's my frustration with the whole telepathy thing no it's very as a story and as a pod it was very compelling to listen to but yeah i think when it comes to that okay let's let's have somebody challenge this and if you're not willing or able to do that i mean right obviously people are going to jump all over it so i don't know i mean to me it some of this stuff is pretty convincing but i don't i don't know there's a documentary coming out about it they made really yeah yeah it's coming out interesting yeah so maybe that will provide further evidence of this but i know what you mean there's been multiple things i've heard that they've been challenged to do certain things and they just sort of they refuse to do it so um yeah i don't know i've never witnessed it you know firsthand myself so yeah you know a big part of the show is they have like the the camera crew and the people who are working with these uh kids are all very skeptical and pretty much all of them come out being like what's the idea behind because i don't i don't know what's well it's basically this this scientist who actually knows is very fond of your dad buhar's diane powell i've talked i've had her on yeah yeah she's great yeah she's super interesting really nice woman she's a she's a you know a a scientist who got very interested in esp and everything but she had this i don't know if it was her or the host of the podcast but there's this theory that these non-verbal autistic kids have a way of communicating with not only each other but with their parent or caretaker that doesn't involve you know speaking because they can't speak and basically chalked it to up to like they're telepathic and they communicate right so there's this thing called the hill that they talk about in the show where all of it's kind of like a mind link where all these kids meet telepathically in this area in some other realm and they're able to communicate with each other there like some sort of interdimensional playground where all these people all these telepathic autistic children go meet up in another dimension somewhere mentally yeah so what's the output how do you measure that or how do you read that so they what they do they do experiments during the telepathy tapes interviews and they've they filmed it they have camera people filming it where like um they put the kid in one room or i don't know if they're in the same rooms or if they're in different rooms but they basically they they show the kids some words or pictures or whatever or no they show the parent the pictures or the words or whatever and then the kid is somehow able to like repeat it yeah exactly what the parent is seeing the kids read the parents mind not the other way around the parents can't read the kids minds okay so they're looking at a board that will say a certain word and the parents back is turned and you're the kid and they have no way of seeing it and they'll be able to you know know the word but they can't talk no so what do they do write it down yeah they have that like a tablet or something right yeah they have a tablet where they can like type or something or i don't know how they do it but there's all these theories that the the parent is signaling them somehow or the parent is touching them in a way that's well one of the things that really i don't know how they do it but there's all these theories that the the parent is signaling them somehow or the the parent is touching them in a way that's well one of the things that really really kind of made me more confused about the whole thing was when i had dahlia one of the mothers of one of the kids on the show and she was saying that her daughter was talking about like meeting jesus or something or like talking about biblical characters and angels and stuff in this other realm and that's where i'm like you know these people are predisposed to this because they were brought up in this religious sort of mind frame right that was kind of like their family history so like how much of that is bleeding into what this kid is saying or you know i always find that really interesting with near-death experiences that it seems i mean do you believe that that's true i believe that's true 100 i believe that's yeah i do too but it seems like people that are brought up in a certain religion they will always find those kind of images yes that's true that's true so that's that you know i always find that kind of interesting that there's some sort of projection so you see something it's like in dreams you see you feel something but you make a projection yourself of what you're seeing you know the way you were brought up or the way you so it's always a projection of your own you know your own beliefs of your own belief there's a certain feeling that you get from something but you make the picture yourself now it's like in dreams in dreams there's feelings going all over the place your mind just yes makes the images yep ties them together and makes it into some kind of soup that nobody really understands it's interesting how that works it is very interesting how that works yeah yeah so something going on there with the subconscious the unconscious mind is somehow percolating up yeah through all this stuff even psychedelic trips too i've heard similar stories oh yeah yeah i've never done that i'm kind of like scared to do a ayahuasca are you do dmt it's only five minutes yeah it's the same thing but it doesn't last for hours i've done mushrooms many times and i've told a lot of people i've had extremely profound you know yeah yeah on mushrooms like really life-changing promotional oh yeah um and and i haven't done it in many years but yeah it's kind of you can hear a lot of people talk about like for me it's like okay i i got there already what what what more do i need to take to like i already kind of experienced that and totally but i don't know i'm not like opposed to the ayahuasca and all that stuff dmt i just i'm kind of like paranoid i guess yeah it's scary it's definitely scary you've done it yeah i've done dmt not ayahuasca what happened did you see uh el elves and the first time i saw little aliens in front of me doing ballet in circles wow that's cute and uh and one of the most recent times i had a like a full-on conversation with a tree in my backyard and it was like i forget so it's like it slips away from you after a while like it's like so like right after you do it you have to immediately do a voice memo of like everything that's running through your mind right then and i did that and it was like something to the effect of like like humans are only like temporary temporary passers-by in like the world or whatever and the trees and like everyone like the trees know way more than we we can ever know and like something about like the nature and like like the what's the what's here on earth and what has been here like the plants and the animals and some sort of like some sort of like universal consciousness that the trees are all tapped into and they see everything and we can't even comprehend like the reality and we're only temporary and like they were here before us and they're going to be here after us and like yeah it was my it was kind of like i couldn't stop thinking about it for like a week after it was pretty wild i have a question like when you do dmt like that when do you just like come out of it like how how does that like do you just kind of like come back and just yeah just sort of like it just gradually wears off over a couple minutes it lasts maybe 10 minutes max so it's like it's like all of a sudden it's just like you're blasted in to like another reality i feel like the first time i did it that's the best way i could describe what dying would probably be like because i feel like my soul sort of ejected out the top of my head and i was just like shuttling through like a highway of light like like arteries oh really like arteries made of light and like fractals and things like that and like i i literally felt my physical body being left behind and like everything i know every possession i have every person i've ever met just like leaving that all behind and like entering a new dimension with that was just my soul like completely disconnected from physical reality and uh yeah it was bonkers dude every every every time i've done it it's been a different experience yeah well i've seen what's really interesting to me is you had him on right andrew gallimore yeah yeah yeah he's super interesting he does a bunch of research about this idea that like when whenever you take dmt or enter this other dimension and people can access that dimension and and yeah he does an extended state dmt where he puts people on iv drips of it so he can stay there for longer yeah and try to like map out whatever that realm is yeah i did it once and i uh to my disappointment i just wound up in this dome pure geometric form you know the the six uh what is it called the six corner shape and that was it and i was stuck there and that's all i saw and when i opened my eyes i was still like half in there but that was it pure geomet and that i found so weird that was the least thing i would expect one of the craziest things for me too was this the audio like my like the their sound it's not just visual hallucinations it's like this type sound that just takes over huh it's like this weird weird thing unexplainable yeah now i want to try it i guess yeah man you're going to have to do it someday you're young yeah geez well cool man thank you guys for doing this this has been a fascinating conversation yeah um tell people about your documentary uh mind traveler it's called mind traveler it's going to be out this summer and you can buy it you can rent it amazon itunes etc and yeah we're going to have a trailer done to definitely for sure like this week so we can oh cool we can get that to you hell yeah yeah yeah mine traveler um yeah long time coming very excited about it i think fantastic documentary man very well thank you very much big fan thanks man cool all right andy thank you this has been fun yeah you're welcome all right guys good to be here good good night world when you shop kroger delivery you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door our refrigerated trucks keep your items fresh while our associates are committed to getting every detail right carefully selecting and packing your order with care because bringing you fresh quality groceries is what we do best and right now enjoy 20 off your first online order of 75 or more restrictions apply see site for details kroger fresh for everyone hi there i am fully charged and here to tell you toy story 5 is now on disney plus it's been too long cowboy woody buzz and jesse are back for a brand new adventure with some seriously cool new tech what holy butterscotch you said it jesse so save your batteries and watch the global phenomenon at home and the best part it's perfect for the whole family power up your movie night and watch disney and pixar's toy story 5 now streaming on disney plus rated pg