#380 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar Pt. 2

I'm Munga Shategatherer and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, cormugians, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make you look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Nore Jones and my podcast playing along is back with more of my favorite musicians. Check out my newest episode with Phineas. So I went home and I asked Billy if she wanted to sing it. She immediately made it her own thing. You really know how to make me cry when you give me those ocean marks. I'm scared. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to playing along on the I Heart Radio app. I'm going to play on the I Heart Radio app. And then there's everything else. I would have gotten off easier. And I'd kill five people. And I would have gotten off easier. [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome back to "Romphal Conviction" and to part two of Keith Lamar's story. If you haven't listened to part one, there's no time like the present. We're now returning to our interviews with Keith and his attorney, Keegan Stephman, who is heading up Keith's latest and potentially his last appellate effort. We previously left off talking about how four other men from two of the three factions involved in the Lucasville Prison riot, the Aryan Brotherhood and SUNY Muslims, are currently on death row, along with Keith, and how it appears that the third faction, the Black Gangster Disciples, made a deal with prosecutors Mark Pippemire and Seth Teeger for cooperation in all five trials and exchanged for either leniency or all out immunity from their own actions. It's an open secret. I mean, it was an article that was written on the 30th anniversary recently. It's just that inquiry and the possibility of Mark Pete Mark is on record. And he said, "Did I make the deal with the devil? Possibly, it's possible that the guy who was maybe had blood on his hand is on the street right now, but that was the cause that we were dealt." That's not just a system works. It's first come first serving. The guy who Mark Pete Mark was referring to in an article was Anthony Levele. He was the leader of the Black Gangster Disciples. Basically everything I've read, everything I've heard, 'cause it's been 30 years. He was the one who was really responsible for most of the killings, including the guards death. And so it appears that the leadership of the Black Gangster Disciples. Anthony Levele, Stacy Gordon, as well as others who were actually involved in the death of Neil Black, managed to avoid accountability by supporting the narrative of the late blame for all 10 deaths on the other four men and, of course, Keith. So let's talk about the investigation led by Hamilton County prosecutors Mark, Pete Meyer, and Seth Teeger. We remember their names from other wrongful convictions, including Elwood Jones, who they were totally willing to send a death row, even though they had scientific evidence of his innocence. So you could draw your own conclusions from that as well as what you're about to hear. Now, it struck me as odd that they were involved in this case because Hamilton County is nowhere near Lucasville, prison. Mark, Pete Meyer, out of order, prosecuted instead of a while, he was hand-picked because of the record we now know he has because he can put you on death row with no evidence. He could manufacture the evidence, he could withhold the evidence. This is what his office was known for doing. So it wasn't randomly picked. He was specifically picked because he had those skills. It's pretty remarkable how many interviews they conducted and how uniform it is that almost all of the testifying witnesses followed the same arc. Initially, they were not naming Keith Lamar or even affirmatively saying that Keith was not involved and then over time, as they gave more statements, started saying that Keith was involved and Keith was the leader of the death squad. That is suspicious to say the least. And then almost all the witnesses to some degree also received deals and have incredible credibility issues. So let's talk about those witnesses. The testifying witnesses against Keith were Robert Bass, Anthony Walker, Thomas Taylor, Stacey Gordon, Louis Jones, Ricky Rutherford, and Michael Childers. Many of the witnesses were transferred to Oakwood, which was a much more favorable facility for incarcerated people. Even the witnesses themselves testified that they guards were catering to their needs, giving them unlimited supplies of cigarettes, unlimited supplies at the canteen, extra visitation, jobs, and free range of movement. And being in this better situation together, the witnesses were also able to get their stories straight, right? To coordinate. But more importantly, almost all of those testifying witnesses had everything to gain. I mean, some of them had flat out admitted to killing one or more of the victims, and then they just shifted blame on to Keith, saying that he made them do it. Yeah, it's pretty shocking, sort of even on the state's own theory. There is stronger evidence that other people were more directly involved in the murders of each one of the people for whom Keith was ultimately killed. So Keith was charged with four murders from Elblanc, Darrell Dupina, Bruce Fatali, Williams-Svedi, and Albert Steyano, but let's start with the one from K-Block, Dennis Weaver. Keith told the story of how he was piled into this cell on K-Block with nine other guys. When Asunim Muslim named William Bowling, aka Shabaz, killed a man named Dennis Weaver along with two others, Ricky Rutherford and Michael Childers, who ended up testifying that Keith had told them to do it. We've been able to find Alpha Davis from one of Muslims who was in the park with William Bowling after Dennis was killed, and he encouraged William Bowling to say, listen, just to say he made you do it, and they already said, should I buy him more about the Elfs at murders. And I have that 2005 Alpha David right here, from Abdul Muhammad Saddik, who said that he had been previously threatened by Dennis Weaver, and he continued in the Alpha David, talking about the time he spent on the same cell with William Bowling in the aftermath of the riot. Now Michael Childers was in a nearby cell as well. Saddik said that Shabaz admitted to killing Weaver out of loyalty to him, a fellow Muslim whose life had been threatened by Weaver, a non-Muslim. Saddik told Bowling, and this is a direct quote, that he should join with Childers and blame Lamar for the order, since Lamar was a non-Muslim, and he was being seen as a ringleader for other inmate murders anyway. And quote, "And William Bowling, when it came time for him to testify against me on trial, he refused to come." Right, but Michael Childers and Ricky Rutherford did testify. Keegan, what can you tell us about these two? Yeah, so Ricky testified that Keith was the leader of the death squad. The Keith told him to tie up Weaver, and that he did it, and then Keith told Childers to kill Weaver, which Childers did. Rutherford was transferred to Oakwood, where they were given preferential treatment, and was charged with an aggravated murder, but the charge was reduced to involuntary manslaughter, and he received five to 25 years, but it was sort of intentionally meant not to increase the time that he would serve. The state also promised to let his cooperation be known, to the parole board, providing with counsel for his appearance for the parole board, and make all of the transcripts available to him. So, Rutherford admitted participating in Dennis Weaver's murder, completely removed William Bowling from the equation, and then for the small price of saying Keith made us do it, he received a better prison assignment and effectively no additional sentence for the murder. In addition, Rutherford is one of a couple testifying witnesses who suffered severe mental illness, auditory, visual, and command hallucinations, but those records were never turned over to the defense. Jesus Christ. Okay, so what about chillers? Michael Childers first said that other incarcerated people tied Weaver up, and he said that he was told to kill Weaver, but when he went to do so, Weaver was already dead. Then ultimately, he admitted to killing Weaver, but said that Keith told him to do so. Again, he was charged with murder, but pled to involuntary manslaughter. Childers is another witness who was severely mentally ill. Medical records showed that he suffered hallucinations, and those medical records were not turned over to the defense, so the defense could not argue to the jury that this person was not a credible witness. And again, the mental illness was the least of the credibility issues. Childers got a huge break in sensing, instead of murder, which is a capital offense, involuntary manslaughter, which is what he was charged with in Ohio means three to 11 years. You can see that's a that's a deal. He certainly didn't want to refuse. All for the low, low price of blaming Keith for his own actions, alleging that he gave the order like some sort of prison gang leaders, like Anthony the Bell or Stacy Gordon of the Black Gangster Disciples, for example. Now, Stacy Gordon actually testified against Keith. Yeah, so Stacy Gordon was one of the shot colors for the Black Gangster Disciples is my understanding. He plainly admitted to helping to plan the uprising and to killing another incarcerated person, and yet was never charged for that. He was charged with assault on a corrections officer, but pled out and received three to five years to run concurrent with the sentence he was already serving, so he effectively turned no time for this assault during an uprising that he admitted to planning. So he got no time for either the assault or the murder? Wow. All right. So what testimony did he give in exchange for this phenomenal sweetheart deal that he got? At trial, you know, Stacy Gordon is probably one of the more damning witnesses, and he describes Keith as the leader of the death squad. Again, it's sort of suspicious because other people identify Stacy Gordon as the person doing a lot of the things that Keith Lamar was ultimately paked for doing, which was opening the cells that the alleged snitches were caged in, which was in everybody's narrative, including the state's narrative, the step taken to lead to their executions. And it is in just direct contradiction to sworn testimony that he gave at his own guilty plea for the assault on the corrections officer where he was asked if he saw Keith in L6 and said, no. So it sounds like he sub-Keefe in for himself in the state's narrative at Keith's trial. And then the rest of the witnesses appeared to serve that goal. A guy named Robert Bass testified, in addition to three more men who all appeared have been part of the death squad, Lewis Jones, Anthony Walker, and Thomas Taylor. So let's start with Robert Bass. For Robert Bass in particular, he did not bring up Keith's name on his own. The transcript shows that one of the interviewing troopers brought up Keith's name and then Robert Bass started saying it back to the interviewer. And this is like a classic example of a fed fact that, you know, Bass didn't actually testify to seeing anyone assaulted or killed, but he said that Keith was in L6. That Keith had a t-shirt over his head, but was sure it was him. He also himself admitted to removing dead bodies from L6, but was never charged with any crime. Bobby Bass, he was somebody who I was on speaking terms with, you know, don't arrive. He fell down his death. He was drunk of something, not dollars teeth out. When he came to test the file, he had all brand new false teeth. And then he looked at 20 years younger, you know, and he looked at him. He wanted to guys to look at the table on the side. So he showed us like I'm sorry. And he got released. He got a release, man. So he got his teeth fixed as well as an early release in exchange for some super vague testimony saying that your head was covered, but somehow he knew it was you. Maybe he was trying to make himself impeachable. Sounds that way. But okay, four down three to go. Let's move on to Lewis Jones, Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor. And we're going to do this by going victim to victim in the L block. Bruce Vitale, William Spedy, Albert Steyano and Darrell Dupino. For Darrell Dupino, you know, there were other incarcerated people who made statements saying that Lewis Jones was the person who killed Darrell Dupino. Lewis Jones statements changed dramatically over time. He admitted to being a part of the desk ward and listed everyone else involved, which is sort of rare statement for someone to give off the bat for an incarcerated person. But he didn't name Keith. He said that the group was led by a black Muslim. Lamar was not a black Muslim. And then ultimately, you know, testified that Lamar was the leader of the desk ward. Other incarcerated people identified Jones as being involved in not just the murder of Darrell Dupino, but Bruce Vitale. And despite that, despite him admitting that he was a member of the desk ward and knew everyone else involved. And being implicated in two murders, he was never charged in connection with the uprising in any way. Wow. He named everybody in the desk ward in his first interview and excluded Keith, information that was hidden by the state. And then for his testimony, he was transferred to Oakwood and was not charged for two murders, Darrell Dupino and Bruce Vitale. And I understand that another individual, Aaron Jefferson, was named along with Lewis Jones for Darrell Dupino. And then there were additional people named in connection with Bruce Vitale's death. Yeah. So with with Bruce Vitale, there is not strong and credible evidence against Keith. However, there are other statements in the record that two other incarcerated people who were the actual people who killed Bruce who were not charged with this crime. Now, let's move on to the murder of Williams Fettie. A person named Eric Gerdy later admitted and pled guilty to this had to give a call a que about the details of the murder that had to be accepted by the court. And he specifically said that Keith was not involved. That would seem to be pretty important to school pitory evidence that should be a basis for arresting this conviction. But the courts didn't see it that way. And in addition to Gerdy, there were court filings naming three other individuals in Fettie's murder. Fred Frakes, Roger Snotgrass and Brian Eskridge. Yet none of those alternative suspects were known to the jury or the defense. So moving on to Albert Steyano. For this one, the last two witnesses, Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor kind of tag team this one. Yeah. Walker initially told investigators that a number of people participated in the beatings and murders in Elblock, but said that Keith was not present. Ultimately, however, he said the Keith was involved. And so he just switched in Keith for other people in his narrative and ultimately testified that Keith was the leader of the desk. Why Keith handed someone a bat and told him to when he had earlier said that was someone else entirely. So this is another time Keith was specifically excluded, but the state with held it from the defense. And then Walker joined the crowds, swapping in Keith for the actual assailants in exchange for no charges for his own actions. Then Thomas Taylor testified to receiving and using the bat that Walker mentioned. So Thomas Taylor admitted to murdering Steyano. He said that he alone hit the victim over the head with the bat repeatedly until the bat cracked, but he said that Keith told him to and yet Taylor was able to plead to an military manslaughter while Keith received a capital murder charge in conviction. Taylor made about eight statements. In his first three statements, he was not committed over four statements. He said he saw Keith Lamar in Stacey Gordon. He said Gordon is the leader of the desk. Why? And then his fifth statement, Stacey Gordon completely disappears from the narrative because Stacey Gordon too has now become a state witness. This podcast is brought to you by Ohio Justice and Policy Center, a non-profit law firm that seeks justice for people directly impacted by Ohio's criminal legal system. OJPC provides free legal services to currently and formally incarcerated people. Through its Beyond Guilt project, OJPC works to free overpunished people who have rehabilitated themselves. OJPC's second chance clinics help individuals with criminal records remove barriers to employment and housing. OJPC's Human Rights and Prison Project represents people who face denial of medical care. In its 25-year history, OJPC has worked at the policy level and won numerous victories in Ohio, including ending due little life without parole and exempting seriously mentally ill people from the death penalty. To learn more about Ohio Justice and Policy Center and how you can support its mission, visit ojpc.org. That's ojpc.org. OJPC Center, we don't write people off. They took the proof of prisoners and it put them in a private prison here in Ohio and there they went over script. Monty Maia, they's giving them with these prisoners, they had movies, they had the free runner in the commissary and he's saying witness This was cared from trial to trial, saying the same story over and over again. Now we're talking about a riot. We're talking about people being murdered with shovels and bats and knives. But it's also this very clean group of witnesses who were standing back watching the whole thing on the murder of the murder. According to the state, but it wasn't a neat thing. It couldn't have been a neat thing. It was a riot. Meanwhile, you know, the booms, my clothes, when I came out the art, all those things were burnt. You can kind of see the reasoning for viewing evidence that had been on L-block for an 11-day seat, just not probative, but not so with the inmates on the yard or in K-block. And in the state's narrative, Keith was either ordering or leading the charge on several of these murders on L-block before returning to the yard. He didn't have a change of clothes. If he had anything to do with his desk, what his boots and clothing clearly would have been covered in at least some of the victims DNA? - Yeah, you would imagine. You would think if I'm responsible for the death of five people, you would think I would have some blood, some kind of, you know, scratches on my body, something. - Yeah, the fact that they didn't save the clothing is more and more shocking. The state took that piece of evidence, probably the most crucial piece of evidence in this case and burned it. - You know, there were layers of stuff paper down didn't as we was broke and never presented the piece of paper with my DNA on it. - Yeah, the paper that you allegedly stuffed down then as we were stroked to suffocate them. I mean, that piece of alleged evidence somehow magically disappeared as well. - So out of 22,000 pieces of evidence that was collected, all of it was burned. - And those weren't the only dirty tricks, right? - No, they took my case to Ironson, Ohio, 96% white and apparently all white jewelry. But that was on the beginning. They want to do this very one way discovery. - You know, when I first read about this pretrial discovery process, I was dumbfounded as to how this was allowed to happen. The prosecution had amassed hundreds of interviews. But when Keith's attorneys made the request for any ex-culpatory evidence, you know, saying that Keith wasn't involved, first they objected. - The prosecutors objected saying, you know, it's going to be hard to satisfy their constitutional requirement to find all of the ex-culpatory material in their mountains of evidence. That's obviously not an excuse. But the judge accepted that justification and said, turn over what you can. And what followed was the prosecutor saying, you know, we don't want to turn over all of the statements with the names attached because we think that that could put some of the incarcerated people's safety and jeopardy. And so they got together the statements that they deemed ex-culpatory. And the judge read them into the record without the names attached. - There's a bit to unpack about what you just said. They handed over what they deemed ex-culpatory. And with what we've already examined here, they left out some absolute fucking whoppers. And then I understand that the defense was given a list of 43 names that were not matched up with the statement summaries that the prosecution actually did provide for the judge to read into the record. And then most, if not all, of those 43 men wouldn't cooperate with key defense. - If the witness statements are not attached to names, so you can't cross examine the testifying witnesses and can't go interview and call witnesses of your own that have testimony that is helpful for you, then those disclosures are not satisfying the purpose of Brady as they're not allowing you to present a defense. - And what Pete Meyer later admitted at a federal habeas hearing in 2007 was that they used an impossibly narrow standard to deem a statement ex-culpatory. Essentially, he said that since these were group murders, if Keith was not specifically excluded, then it does not exclude Keith. But we know from examining the interview transcripts that they didn't even satisfy their own standard. Louis Jones and Anthony Walker both specifically excluded Keith. Stacey Gordon's testimony in his assault charge proceeding also excluded Keith. But this was all still hidden from the defense. Despite meeting this very narrow Brady standard. - Again, the purpose of Brady, the reason you get ex-culpatory material is so that you can present a defense. And anybody looking at that today, any lawyer, any judge would say that doesn't satisfy Brady. - So with these built in constitutional violations, Keith went to trial with the judge having read these statement summaries unattached to names into the record. The ones that Pete Myer and Tegre deemed ex-culpatory. And the statement summaries varied from useless to speculative to actually ex-culpatory. For example, referring to an alleged witness of Dennis Weaver's death in cell K-236, quote, "He was in a cell adjoining K-236 but gave no useful information," end quote. Another example, quote, "He was in an adjoining cell to K-236 and heard a commotion and thought weaver hung himself," end quote. And then the actually useful ex-culpatory material, quote, "He observed Esquidge kill Sveti in L-carider," end quote. Now, if you remember, there were four men associated with Sveti's death. Esquidge, Frakes, Snoggrass, and Gurdie, the last of which ultimately confessed an excluded Keith. So this is the total extent of the material that was shared with the defense, along with a list of 43 names of possible sources for those statements. The defense, meanwhile, was expected to go to trial blindfolded with both hands tied behind their backs. But even still, they did present an alibi. - Yeah, so Keith testified and had a number of defense witnesses, Kurt Ayers, Ronnie Eugene Foreman, or Futz, Cory Perkins, William Washington, also known as Juno, and Christopher Eugene Williams. Basically, all of the defense witnesses corroborated Keith's story, like in so many wrongful convictions and exonerations. The defendant had a bunch of alibi witnesses. They all seemed credible. They all confirmed his story. They said that he was in the yard during the time when the murders occurred. - Unfortunately, once again, without knowing everything we laid out earlier about the witnesses, or even with the focac de discovery that Keith did get, the jury was primed to buy the state's narrative. And with the exception of Robert Bass, all of them testified transferring the blame for their own crimes, right to Keith. And since all of the physical evidence had been destroyed, there was no way to either confirm or deny it. - 'Cause they did at one point, wrote a whole bunch of wheelbarrows and shovels and fire extinguishers, wrapped in plastic, given the jury the impression that these are the murder weapons, bombers and shanks, and all this shit wrapped in plastic. As if they had did a meticulous investigation, they shouldn't have anything to do with anything. But no one was there to see that. Throughout the whole trial was the last of the month. There was no one in the gallery. It was empty. And it started from a deal. I went back to look at the vehicle, and I came back for a sense of it. And I had written and memorized this little speech that I wanted to say. And I came onto the courtroom, and it was about 300 white people standing in there. And so it was mad and eased the close. I mean, it was standing room on me. It hadn't seen iconic teachers in the 1800s, 1700s, but black people being latched, and you had this big gallery, big swarm of white people, standing around with ties on the same thing. And when I see those teachers a couple years later, I knew I'd seen that before. I said, "I wouldn't stand, I was a part of that." I know what that is. That's a lesson, Mom. [music] From daily news to dating fails, conspiracy theories to cooking with celebrities who can't actually cook, Amazon Music's got the most ad-free top podcasts ready to entertain, included with Prime. 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Listen to The Missing Sister on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my love. Starting your day can be tough. You wake up, maybe hit snooze, and then scroll on your phone for a while, checking your emails all before even giving yourself the chance to really open your eyes and breathe. And I want to help you break that cycle. My name is Ryan Weiss, and for the past 15 years, I've been an emotional intelligence coach and spiritual guide, and I'm here to share with you my new podcast, waking up in the morning. Ryan. Waking up with Ryan is a daily audio video podcast to interrupt the inertia of your fear, your ego and judgment here to help you connect with yourself before the noise of the day takes over. So let's start our days together with a moment of calm, a moment of reflection and meditation, a moment that's just for you. Listen to waking up with Ryan on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The most important thing I've learned is that who I am is more important than what I have. And if I am who I say I am, then it doesn't really matter where I am, I can still be who I am. I mean I'm in a fucked up situation, there's no way to cynical that happens. I've taken a lot of thoughts for all these years, but I am not the situation, the situation is fucked up, I'm not fucked up. I'm being sure that I'm not fucked up, I have a routine, I've learned how to meditate when I was in my early 20s. And I was lucky Jason, I met him was meant to boss a very remarkable man here in person, five of six. One was my boxing coach and his other day, Nick Dain was a lack of philosophy poet, you know, can a term you own two, a lot of literature, and was like a therapist as well, can help me deal with some of the trauma, then then when I ride on that floor, another older guy named Snoop, who I referenced in the music in the album, that we put out the three first albums. He's been to a show, we had to do yoga, how to actually live, you know, I was able to pursue myself even in this little space, you know, start developing my inner life, you know, other lives in a life where you know close to 2000 books. And I have to ask these of the close to 2000 books that you've read, which one had the most profound impact on you? Well, one of the things that I was given to understand that if I wanted to change my situation, I had to learn how to write. My mind's locked out of school, the tenth grade. And so one of the books that I read that taught me how to write was Richard Wright's Black Boy. I read that book every day for, you know, a few years. I was reading within 10th of learning how to write. And so reading that is how I was able to become a writer myself and wrote my memoir, "Condume" was kind of close, you know, my journey through the criminal justice system, you know, and that's real. This is the most important part of the story, in my opinion, right? Of course, I'm talking about your poetry, your performances, music, writing, wrote, condemned as I understand it in solitary confinement on a typewriter a few pages at a time, right? And dictated it every morning, I telephoned to somebody who transcribed each and everywhere. You found it a literacy program, learned to play chess, yoga, meditation. I mean, I think most people are listening and trying to think which people from their life, you know, friend's circle has accomplished what you've accomplished. I'm doing the same that you are trying to do Jason, that, you know, anybody else trying to do you trying to make the most out of your one and only life. And the circumstances are different, yes, but the goal is to say do something like this with my life. Tell us what is Native Suns. That's a literacy program that you founded? Yeah, the Lizzy project, you know, Richard Wright, as I said, and I had a big impact on my life. Not just on my writing, but just on how to engage with life. And I just thought that if I had read that book when I was 13 and a juvenile, that it probably would have changed something in terms of my self concept and how I looked at life. And so I just started reading with high school students in the inner cities here in Ohio and New York City. And it's been really, really rewarding experience. Yeah, it's incredible. It's kind of like you're reaching back almost like trying to help your younger self. And you've been doing that and so much more with one of the unsung heroes of your story, Amy Gordaev. She helps facilitate the literacy program events. She's the person that transcribed your memoir condemned over the phone, as well as advocated for you to us and Leah Rothman of the Real Killer podcast. She's also the person that facilitates what you mentioned earlier. And I'm talking about Freedom First, which started as a concert series with New York based jazz musicians and you on the phone from Death Row sharing poetry and spoken word. You've done shows literally like it seems like all over the world from yourself. It's really incredible what you've been able to accomplish. You know, because I have time, you know, these people have given me time, you know, and given me a really a gift of time. It's truly amazing to hear your perspective. And I believe I could come around to it being a gift, if not for the fact that you have to also spend that gift of time fighting for your freedom and your life, your very life. So let's turn to your appeals. There were a number of potential constitutional violations like whether or not some jurors were excluded due to racial bias, but the main issue was and is the withholding of a scumbatory evidence. But this issue is kind of split into two parts. The first, whether or not the way in which the information that was shared with the Defense of Trial Constituted or Brady violation, the landmark Supreme Court case that ruled that the state must turn over all evidence that might exonerate the defendant. And if you remember, the judge read statements summaries detached from their sources. The appellate court said these statements were turned over. That ignores the fact that they were turned over in such a way that they couldn't satisfy the very basic premise of Brady that they're turned over in a way to defend yourself. Right. How was he supposed to defend himself with these sort of phantom statements with no names attached? So how did the ruling get around that obviously clearly logical conclusion? They said that they weren't exculpatory, which sort of follows the prosecutor's very narrow definition of Brady, which is that they weren't exculpatory because they said that other people did it, but they didn't say that Keith didn't do it. Which is patently ridiculous. There were plenty of people in that prison that 1,819 to be exact, and they were specifically excluded either. And so what did the court say to address that? They said it wasn't material under Brady. And material under Brady is effectively, if it wouldn't have changed the outcome of trial, then it's not material. And so we don't need to reverse a conviction based on the fact that these statements weren't turned over in a usable fashion. So that refers to what Pete Myrantiger did turn over a trial. And then comes the second Brady issue, the exculpatory evidence that was with help from the defense and later discovered by two attorneys who were appointed to handle Keith's federal appeal, Kate McGarry and David Dotton. Now they turned up the initial witness statements that we revealed earlier. And at least two of those satisfy even the very narrow thread the needle Brady standard that Pete Myrantiger devised. Anthony Walker and Lewis Jones both named everyone in the death squad and specifically excluded Keith. And then there's the statements about Stacey Gordon. There were statements from other incarcerated people saying that Gordon opened the cells, the alleged snitches were placed in and was the leader of the death squad, which is basically what Keith was convicted of. Gordon himself admitted to killing another incarcerated person. And then was never charged with that murder, but rather with assault of a corrections officer with a sentence to run concurrent, by the way, with the time he already had. And then at that, assault proceeding, Gordon specifically excluded Keith. So that is again very clear material Brady evidence. But the state courts heard all of that and didn't think even one juror would have thought it mattered at the time. Even though that's all it takes to change an outcome of trial. Exactly. I was told not to suspect any relief from the state courts. I thought I would receive relief once I got to the federal court. And only one out of all the local state prisoners over granted every different hearing. We've been back in 2007, I believe it was and put more people on the stand. And this was when he came clean about the impossibly narrow standard by which they deemed something ex-gumpatory. Right. I mean, it's a it's a strange thing that the court stated in reviewing those statements, right? They they bought Pete Myers logic and said that if a statement said that some people committed the murder, but didn't directly exclude Keith, then it wasn't ex-gumpatory. Okay. But Pete Meyer and Tegre did withhold statements that were not absolved by this ridiculous standard. Statements that did specifically exclude Keith. And yet the federal and state courts both did the same thing saying that the statements from Anthony Walker, Lewis Jones and Stacey Gordon wouldn't have made a difference at trial. So Keith Habius was denied in 2011 as was the appeal in 2015. And in 2016, the Supreme Court denied certiorari refusing to review the evidence and the lower court's decision separately. There's been an ongoing legal battle over the lethal injection protocol in America. Essentially, the rest of the world is so disgusted by us that they've been trying to starve us of the drugs that were deemed to be cause humane, ridiculous words for this, and and approved thereby for use in our lethal injection protocols. I'm talking about sodium diopental or pentobarbital. The anesthetic, I think, is the first drug in the three drug cocktail. By 2014, states began to run out of the drug. And so they started looking for alternatives like medazzolam, which then triggered legal challenges from those facing the death penalty. The thing is with medazzolam in many cases that condemned have suffered and writhed in agony on the gurney for the better part of an hour. Which one would think would constitute a violation of the Eighth Amendment ban on cruel and unusual punishment? But our current Supreme Court did not agree. However, this long legal battle over the injection protocol did have the positive effect of halting executions even if only temporarily. In the meantime, for Keith, after his federal habeas was denied, he fired his attorneys and his case was given to the Tennessee federal defenders. But with Medazalam cleared for use by the Supreme Court of the United States, various states that still have capital punishment began setting execution dates again, including Ohio, which caused an imminent and very real threat to Keith's life that has since been averted. And we'll get to that in a minute. But first, let's get to the Tennessee federal defenders. The Tennessee federal defenders took over the case. They did successfully get access to additional files that the appellate counsel did not have access to. We're now going to be reviewing those. They were going to attempt to bring an actual innocence claim. They recognized that it needed to happen in state court first, but their jurisdiction is limited to federal court, so they were not able to make that motion. So since then, you know, Keith has needed someone to come in who would be able to make a motion in state court to bring in any newly discovered evidence. And that's where you and the team at Belldock living in Hoffman come in. Yes. So David Singleton at the Ohio Justice and Policy Center is our local council. And then we're also working with Joshua Jack Jones at Northwestern Law School. We've now gotten all the materials from Tennessee federal defenders. The process of digitizing all of that. We have an army of attorneys and student attorneys now that are going to be reviewing it tandem using the coding system to bubble everything up to get the attorneys that'll be writing the brief. So there are still some promising legal avenues available along with the potential for additional exculpatory material that you have already. And now Governor DeWine has granted Keith a reprieve. It's cold, comfort, but still. And it's insane that it ever got this close. But Keith had a scheduled execution date of November 16, 2023. But now his team has a real chance to litigate his case. And we are hoping against hope that justice delayed will not be justice denied. So what can our audience do to help? Then go to my website, Keith Maad.org or follow me on Facebook, Justice Keith Maad, just petition on those areas pages that you can sign as a minute to the governor just to indicate to him how many people are aware of my situation and who are watching the decision that he makes in regard to my situation. All right, we're going to have action steps linked in the bio. It's important to note that justice for Keith Lamar is a non-profit 501c3. There will also be ways that you can delve even deeper into this case, including another podcast, the entire second season of the real killer with journalists and host Lee Arroffman. We're also going to link to Keith's book his upcoming shows and how you can experience his work and get involved. So with that, we come to my very favorite part of the show, closing arguments. First of all, I think each of you, then I'm going to kick back in my chair, turn my microphone off and leave my headphones on, probably close my eyes, and just listen for anything else you want to share with me and our incredible audience. So Keegan, once you go first, then Keith, you'll think I'll swap into the sunset. Keith is innocent and at minimum, he did not receive a fair trial. He needs to finally get a fair look at his case by a court. You know, I think Keith has said it best. He's not asking any attorney to promise that he will get exonerated. He wants us to create a document that lays out his story, shows just how many constitutional violations occurred in his trial, just how much excopatory evidence there is, and put that in front of a judge and make a judge look at all of that and say we're going to put you to death anyway. Keith wants his story out there. He wants, if he's executed this to be something that people look back on and say, look, that shows just how inhuman this system was, just how doomed this civilization was, that it would put people to death based on trials that were egregiously unfair. And I think that Keith's trial was egregiously unfair, and we're coming in to try to write that. Unfortunately, our only method of writing that is to find new evidence outside of that trial, get back into court, exonerate Keith and stay as execution. As I'm talking about all this shit, it's a lot too, man, you know, to count out. You know, if you didn't have a statement, if they threw away all the statements like they did, threw away all the physical evidence, no one would believe this story. But the law and the law is mounted evidence, you know, all this shit. So for no other reason, the world want to know about this, what happened to me, what they did to me. And it might be, you know, I might find myself trapped through a journal, but it won't be really cause I put the death row and lay down and watch the color television. It won't be because I sat down and I said and didn't open up a legal book that I didn't do everything that I possibly could in presence of my own life. It won't be because the public didn't know about what it is. But that's what this podcast is about. That's what the book is about. That's what the documentary about. That's all with that's all about. They won't be able to call this justice. Now, it might not be prevent them from executing me. They would be killing, they're good at that, they're assisting that execute people, lynching people. And I was on the ranks of my ancestors, that's how I look at that. If shit that that happened, I'm doing everything to prevent that from happening, you know, but one thing for sure, they won't be able to call this justice though. And that's my goal. It's not that we tried my case in the court of public opinion. And there's a hard sale until you read the evidence. You know, you have a right in your hands, you know, I didn't have that. I sure didn't see that. Not that it would have made a difference. But we live in the different era now. And I'm hoping that people in the days era, after seeing George Floyd, Eric Targ, the pre-Homitator, and so on and so forth, that they would, you know, respond differently to this evidence and not say that it doesn't mean anything. Because obviously, I came to prison and did something with my life. I rehabilitated myself. And that's what this was about. Then I have done that. I'm a perfect candidate for victims. We all have to give it to give the chance to learn from our mistakes and become a benefit to our communities and what not. I can do that. It's given the chance. If that's what we say, we truly are about. Not dedicated to past two decades of my life, mentoring young people. In the same situation I was in when I was 13 years old. And for no reason, my, my, my bed hasn't gotten any softened because of these things I've been doing. I've been doing because it's in my heart to do it. Because I had a recognition that this is what I'm supposed to be doing with my life. In spite of the poor shit that happened to me. Thank you for listening to Ronfl Conviction. You can listen to this in all the Lava for Good Podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea and Laila Robinson as well as my fellow executive producers, Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartus, and Jeff Clyburn. The music in this production was supplied by three-time Oscar-nominated composer, J. Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Ronfl Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram at its Jason Flom. Ronfl Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company number one. I'm Munga Shategeler and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talked to scientists, biopunks, chermudgins, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. That doesn't work. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. So I went home and asked Billy if she wanted to sing it. So come hang out with us in the studio and listen to playing along on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Paul Versey here and I want to talk to you about Paul's best podcast. I will follow big money players that work in iHeart Radio. I sit down each week with a special guest and we discuss the absolute best of things. David's. It's that and then there's everything else. Dude, his whole life is sounded like the first drop of a roller coaster. I mean, I can't even tell you Paul. How curious it was insane. Listen to Paul's best podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.