#378 Underoath's Aaron and Tim Couldn't Give Two F***s About Your Opinion

Today's show is sponsored by Blue Apron. Check out this week's menu and get your first three meals for free by visiting blueaprin.com/badChristian. Hey everybody, this is Riva. So I want to give you a quick reminder that Emory's going to be on tour with 68 in June. Starting June 1st in Seattle and then down through California over to Scottsdale or Azona on the 8th and El Paso on the 9th. So check those dates out, they're going to be with 68 who is Josh Skoggan of the chariot. I don't know about you guys but that was one of those bands growing up where they're coming through town. I would drive as far as I needed to to see them would not miss them. 68th the same man, you got to see them live and I'll be there too so come say hi Frank. You are now entering the Bad Christian podcast. Tim, are you drinking already this morning? Yeah, my first beer the day but yes, I've had a very stressful couple of days. A little too hard. I saw you got a box full of plenty yesterday. Yeah, my freaking man's from LA sent me a suitcase full of plenty of yelder which you can only get on the west coast. One of my favorite beers so I was very pumped on that. That's good stuff. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is Joey here or is Joey just doing Christian counseling? These two are doing to counseling. Where are you making fun of my job just now? I don't know, I don't know if that's a job. Dude man, come joke and dump. You don't know how many people don't commit suicide a day because of me. I like that it's a day. Yeah, daily. Joey's friends and saving people daily. Let's start here though. Tim, Tim was texting me on and off, dying laughing about the podcast telling us we're big clowns, but he's been listening to show more than ever. So I'm curious what stuff Tim's been picking up on where he thinks we've been talking nonsense. Oh, dude, there's been a few times. There was one time, I think Toby or Joey, you guys are talking about all your diets. You guys are on a new diet like every week I feel like. That is true. I'm waiting for you guys to switch to an exclusive like cat food diet or something because it ups your something or other. But Joey mentioned something about he was on slim past and I just knew a moment that I completely don't know reality because for a split second I thought he was being serious because he says so much ridiculous shit all the time that I have no idea what's true or not. Tim, I was I 100% also didn't know if he was being serious or not. Yeah, well that was so funny. You guys all paused and then he's like, I'm kidding. And then you guys fell out because you were both like, how do we deal with this in public right now? And I think it's really funny just hearing Joey's kind of journey. It's really all about Joey. He's just so funny, so entertaining. But yeah, just like his whole journey through faith and evolution and science and you guys just ragging on him. Well, the bad thing is it's not funny. Ha ha Joey's funny. It's ha ha ha laughing at Joey because he's dumb and that's not dumb. Not dumb. That's not the word for it. Not dumb. No, Joey said fun. It's fun. It's blissfully unaware. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. I just think you're so innocent. You just say stuff sometimes. I'm like, what the hell did he just get that right? It's hard to tell. Joey's the smartest one. It is hard to tell. He's in it for the money, in religion for the money. He's killing it on both sides. Yeah, he's killing it in the regular everyday church world and he's killing it over here on the cuss of podcasts, making fat bank. He's evil genius is what you're saying. Yeah, I had to learn a little bit into this thing. You know what? I should probably shy away from the F where else I going to lose my Christian job. So yeah, I've got a balance. He's going to start an extreme left wing podcast soon and then an extreme right wing podcast after that. And that'll be for sure. You guys might be right. He might be a genius. The other day Joey called me and I promise you I was fully on board. It was like he was telling me about a friend from college who had sexually assaulted somebody and I was, oh God, this is awful. And then he just goes, you know, I'm joking, right? I was like, oh, no. I was almost in tears. It was really like I was going through all the emotions of sadness. Like this is my friend, but he really fucked up really bad and all the stuff and then Joey, do you believe that? I was like, oh my god. It was the most extreme depiction of someone. That's what Timmy's saying. You do that every day. You go to all extremes at any moment or anything. Literally, like when you have a question and you're talking about sex, it's never like, how do you ask your wife for a blow job? You're like, all right. So I'm doing blow off like 18 hookers and then my dad walks in and he starts doing blows. And next thing you know, we accidentally kiss. What do you do? And like, that's like a perfect Joey. Like, let me ask an existential question. It's just the weirdest. Oh, it's just an unbelievable. I love it. I just wait for those gems every episode. I've been thinking about that. And you know, in light of it, we've been doing this for so long and under oaths a good example of this too. There's something that's in common, obviously, with our career paths, not even including the Emory. It's just, I mean, for lack of a better term, it's the, like you said, the journey or the evolution or the totally changing from where you start and being willing to change as you go, which some obvious under oaths always doing. But that's, I've been thinking about that with Joey and me and Toby too, but more exaggeratedly Joey with where we started. The views have been changing. And I can't imagine people getting on this BC pod ride at different times because it's just, you know, we've got different views and telling different places where some people are mad about it from time to time. Yeah, I heard you say that the other day. And I don't, it doesn't matter to me. I'm not defensive about it. But you guys like start off as pretty hardcore cow pinness. And when it came to how you viewed women, I mean, you were just as Mars hillized as I was. So I don't see me being the one that changed the most. Unless you're saying that I am more progressive than you guys, I think that I'm, I'm quicker to change. And that may be true. But I don't think you've been a pastor. This is that you have been and still are a pastor and are the craziest person we all know. That's, Joey, you've been a Hindu for three months. Yeah, I mean, and I think, I think that's good. And yeah, I think if you went back to episode one and an episode 70 and episode 150 and then episode 300, all of your views have changed interestingly. But naturally, and like you said, like I think all of ours and under oath have done the exact same thing. I mean, me and Aaron joked all the time about our past and like Aaron's done, you know, church events and like I used to lead by talk about it now at like three a.m. at a bar. Like, remember what you used to do this stuff? How funny was that? And just have a, have a chuckle. I think a lot of people get embarrassed about it. I think one thing I've heard Matt say a lot is like, we shouldn't go back and edit that or delete them. Like people should just be okay with your story and your journey being flawed and being natural and real. And I think unfortunately for you guys and under oath together, like everything we've done since we were 17 has been publicly documented and televised and captured. So we have no choice. So you just got to figure out a way to navigate it. You know, there's video of us, four of us, minus Joey, you know, warp to we're doing a Bible study, taking it pretty seriously. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. Matt Pat Mike. Yeah. Last thing about me and I want to then move to under oath is I think it's into so Priscilla stumbles upon the episode about my sexist premarital notes. And she really wanted to talk about it and it was funny. She said, I don't listen to you guys often. But then y'all know how Priscilla talks. I listen to you guys and you guys are just so fun. I just like y'all are just so fun. I gotta listen more often. So basically though, there's two things that I think are pretty important to know about those premarital notes is they were definitely more conservative than the church that I was working at. Like I think a lot of people at Seacoast would have been a little bit uncomfortable with how it was leaned so towards masculinity and chauvinism. Secondly, and this one is more to protect my reputation, which doesn't really matter now. But the whole put out to protect your husband was given to me by a pastor's wife. Like that was not a mentoring from a male pastor that was from a pastor's wife, but all the same shows how jacked up our culture is. So under oath, what kind of oath were y'all under when y'all first started? Was it like an oath with God and now I'm I'm a dumb rope. Oh no. Oh shit. Aaron, why don't you take that, you named the band, right? When Undro started, it was started by a guy named Alice Taylor and another guy named Luke Morton. And then I joined the band before we had a bass player, O'Call of Florida, which is the north of where we're from. And they just had the name. And I assume, and I don't have 100% historical facts, but I assume that it was called Dundr for that reason, G-O-E. Aaron, are you breaking up or am I? I'm fine. Yeah, last thing I heard was something about how Satan came to you and he said, "If you do this thing, you'll get pretty big, being a pretty big band." He said, "You'll put out a series of mediocre albums and then finally find your sound and go through to the next level if you're just selling your soul now." That was the idea. Oh, for sure. We lost Aaron. So let's get down to real business. He'll join back. All right, folks, pardon me a second from what we're talking about, so I can tell you about something else that I think you should care about and pay a little bit of attention to. But that's only if you like, I don't know, want to look good and ever feel good or go out in public to a special event and not feel really stupid. And that's Indochino. So I don't know if you can understand this if you haven't really worn one. But I made to measure suit. It is just a whole 'nother level than a generic off the Rack suit. 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Incredible deal for a suit that'll fit you better than anything off the rack ever could. But Tim, tell us about how, if all this makes sense from the point of view for you guys on it. Like, what really is the relationship of, since we're on the BC pod and we're talking about this shit, the relationship of faith to your musical change and are those things related because I want to untangle those a little bit. Yeah. That's an opportunity to untangle the part that, you know, you've been on faith, God dang, and I'm going to use the word faith journey here. I'd torn myself into it. Never mind. Anyway, you cornered yourself into it. I walked myself right into having to use the term faith journey. Anyway, tell me about yours. Just unpack your journey, of course, brother. Yeah. While I was standing in the gap at 17 years old, I, uh, no, um, yeah, I mean, I think there are two things, right? I think under those music, that's the one thing I think I can honestly say. 100% facts and Aaron could back me up is like, we did a lot of things because of our faith, but the music was never one of, like, our goal was to be the coolest, raddest, best band ever. Like, I wanted to be better than all my favorite bands and that, and that was really our entire journey in that moment. And I think for us, you know, the music was always, where do we want to go musically as a Jimmy world as a glass jaw is it at the drive in? Is it wherever I think faith wise though, probably the clearest tie there's lyrically. And I think there was a lot of things that Spencer wanted to tackle or Aaron wanted to tackle that we didn't feel super comfortable diving into so bluntly. And now we do because a lot of people have loosened up and or all but kind of lost their faith completely. And at this point, you know, we all started as a Christian band. And there's still about three of us that probably go to church regularly. There's a couple of us that are like, nope, don't want it over it, doesn't exist. And then the rest are kind of in the middle going. There's something, but what it is is to be determined, which I think probably aligns a lot more with probably Matt's view than everyone else is on your side. But you know, you just kind of say like who knows and I annihilation as we go black is are we created who the hell knows? But I feel a purpose. I feel something is bigger than me, so let's all try to be something better than ourselves collectively. I think that's where the faith started is now and the music's just a natural evolution based on all the stuff we're into and doesn't really have any faith-based scenario aside from saying fucking shit and not feeling like we can't, which is probably the obvious thing and everyone's freaking out about for a week and then they move on and jam it. But you all been doing, for instance, you have, you know, you guys have been on record many times cussing before it was in this song. So is that a surprise that that was really that big of a deal at this point, especially given that cultures moved a lot in five years? Like I don't think about cussing near as much as I did five years ago, not whether or not it's good or bad, but I get hassled about it a lot less than I used to. Were you surprised that a bunch of people still wanted to bring that up here? I think that people that are under oath fans, they know that certain members, at least in the last few years, certain members have different creeds they have uphold now. But I think when the band is a whole made a statement saying an expletive, they were like, "Oh crap, it really is over." Like my favorite band really is now Satanic. Yeah, right. Yeah. Like they were holding it at home and that was it. That was that. Yeah. And I think. I've been there, man. I get the most angry about stuff like that, probably in the band where I'm like, you know, like that song came out not too long after the Parkland shootings and the whole thing. And I was like, really, like, we're really spending internet time and intellect talking about us saying a word, like is that really a real thing? Like right now in the world when things are so tense and things are so difficult. So I got the most angry and then I did a lot of thinking about it and it's one of those things where you have people that, like myself, that grew up church of God that are like, that grew up so stringent to a belief system and to a social upholding that when you take away that one band that they were allowed to listen to, you know, that's a shock for them. So I've tried to see it from both sides. I think it's ridiculous. Yeah. And I think it's sad that we live in a world now where a lot of Christian faith-lending people, like I still want to talk about stuff like that, but I understand on both sides. Yeah. I saw you get about 75% aggro on Twitter a couple times. I love it when you do. I love it. Dude, I mean, it's so hard because you really, I really felt like we, Spencer and I really put ourselves out there and I remember us wrestling over saying, fuck, like I remember us being like, is this, is this something that like that we're just doing? Like we had this conversation. Is this something that we're just doing or is this something that is poignant to the moment? I really felt like I really, it's obviously on the record and twice, three times because we really felt like, you know, you can't say like, I'm not your freaking prey, man. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't have the same effect. It's an, it's an emotion more than it's actually language for, for me and for him as well. So I can get so aggro on Twitter because I was like, you don't understand like, this isn't about linguistics, this is about, this is about soul capturing and for, you know, us being in this place, but people just aren't going to understand that. So I've really tried hard in the last month to come to terms with the fact that people on both sides see it for different reasons. And that may sound incredibly tolerant of me and I'm not trying to be like, oh, I'm so tolerant now. I just, I'm trying, I'm trying, you know what I mean? So it's shocking to me, like the thing, I can get super aggro too. And I use, Joey, you said this, I used to be that kid too though. Like when I heard, Joey, I can remember you and I talking about it or whatever, like, I think it was Jackson from Slick Shoes. People said he smoked. They said I'm smoking and you're like, oh, man, that dude. How hilarious is it that like talking to the polar drummer and the parking lot? And he said dumbass and you and I both were like, did he just say that? I know. And how hilarious is it? Like we thought we knew so much like early 20s teens and you think you know everything. But the problem is it means that you, they really aren't your fans anyway. Like somebody that would really complain about that isn't your fan because that's just, that you were on their team or something. Just like a sports guy. He plays for your favorite basketball team. He gets traded. You don't really care about him. You just don't. They don't care about you. And if you look at it percentage wise, the amount of profanity that is on the new under-oath record is next to nothing compared to all the other words. So it's like, percentage wise, nobody takes the time to really think, why would they use this word like you said? Y'all took the time to figure out why, what words should be used, and nobody else gives you that much opportunity. It's really frustrating. - Well, I think it's, I don't think it's any different than anything else when you're doing art. And it's like, when you, I feel the same thing music, 'cause I was just at the studio all weekend of Dave and I were doing drums and stuff for the new Emory record. And I was like, and what in lyrics, but no matter what, when you have an idea, and it comes in your head, and you're trying to do something that's art, and that idea is beyond a boundary of something that seems normal or acceptable or okay. Once I conceive of such an idea, it's very hard to, not, I mean, basically the job is figure out how to make this work. Do you know what I mean? Like not, oh, you know what? That would be too heavy, or that chord's too weird. That's never the right, almost never the right answer. The answer is, maybe people wouldn't like it if we do this extra boundary pushing thing in the music. No, you don't want any creator to do that. I would argue, you never want to create it to be safer and just make sure not to actually push that boundary, whether it be a drum sound or a lyric or a chord. I think you, like, how embarrassed would you be about yourself if you had that lyric? And you felt it was right, and you just chickened out is what it would be to me. If you pulled that lyric, you'd be chickened out. - You know, there's a song on chasing safety and still bothers me today. And sometimes if I play this song solo, I'll tell the story where it's that boy brush red, living in black and white track, where the second verse it goes, "Look who's dying now, slit wrist. Leave one of the girl next door. I always do you wear such a sucker for that whore." That was supposed to be the line. I think actually Tim may have even written it. But the label, I remember it was pain from branding at 2000. - No, it was Chad Johnson. - Chad Johnson came down and, like, told us, saying whore was going to do more destruction to the culture and the flock, then just censoring it. And we were like, "We don't have any other word." And that's the lyric. And so now it's just such a sucker for that. And then we just go in. And it's like, we just literally edited an entire sentence, chromatically, fully incorrect, just because someone's like, "Yo, man." And then we actually took it. We were in a spot where he wasn't manipulating us. He was coming to us. And we were like, "Yo, this is pretty fringe. We'll see." And then he's like, "Dude, you guys really need to like seek and think on this. Like, you guys are going to just do a lot more damage than you think you're going to do, like, moving forward." And at the time, we're like, "You're right." Like, saying whore, like, there's too much risk for destruction. - Oh, man. - I mean, you never want to create, you don't want that Vince Gilligan for breaking bad or Cobain or anybody to have wish, you never wish they would have been more careful. - Yeah. - That's just not what the thing is, not what we're doing. - I mean, Bill Cosby, I want to do something like that. - It is hot. - It is hot. - Well, that's a good example of the counter. It's overly clean, but there's a real dark side that you don't show. So if you could actually make the opposite point. - It's funny when like the people that are pissed that we say fuck, just watch the like, the last three seasons of Game of Thrones in their room with their girlfriend, totally fine. Watching people get raped and pillaged and gang banged and destroyed and beheaded. And it's like, I can watch that. It's not about that's destroying me or anyone else around me, it's that I have a way that you need to look and feel and speak like because you say you're on my side and this is what art is. - Right. - And I think that's a big disconnect and that's why we have left behinds and Kirk Cameron and Christian movies and Christian television and they always make sure it's rated for everyone 'cause it's just, there's soul bullshit at this point and it's like, and I think that's where our frustrations come in as a band of faith. And then you add like all of the other stuff we've been through and you just kind of get to aspire like, you know what, all of this doesn't make any sense and yet somehow I still personally call myself a Christian and then people ask me the top five questions, do you believe this, no? Did this happen this way, no? Just perfect, no? And I'm like, so you're actually not. And then I'm like, well, there's not a rulebook for who is and who isn't. And I guess the easiest way for me to say it is, maybe I'm just becoming more Jewish and I think Jesus is my rabbi and I'm gonna follow everything he said but I'm not gonna conform to what you're doing. But then I can't even be Jewish. So I'm not a Christian, I'm not a Jew and I'm not anything yet somehow I still believe in everything Jesus taught and I still believe in being a good person and that we're all part of a bigger cog. So whatever that is, that's what I think I am and that's I think what we all are in a weird way. - One of the things you said that really, it does bother me like I mentioned this last week or whatever on the podcast, it just really bothered me that a lot of Christians were talking about how awesome it was that Bieber was at Coachella and did a worship set but was coming down on you guys for like just being honest. That's the thing like you were saying earlier, our lives have played out in front of a lot of people so they are expecting you not to change and always be what they want you to be and you are making, you're not lying right now. Like the things all are doing aren't lying. You're not hidden, you're not doing it to win more Christian fan. Y'all could have easily left off a couple of words and hit up, you know, went hard and stayed in the Christian market or went deeper in the Christian market and that would have been fake and not true but y'all are actually being authentic and I think maybe that's what bothers people is living in front of people authentically and trying to be open and honest about where you're at is maybe scary and they think that you're just, maybe you were always a liar and now that you know that it makes them feel insecure. - Right, yeah. - And if they let us take you, 'cause I've failed that way before about Francis Day Bazon, it's like, oh, well, I don't want him to go off the edge 'cause that means I might be headed off the edge too, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. - And it's cool that he can talk about, you know, tasting corporate comm and like just screaming for more because he's singing about the rapture which means he's still a believer. So we still have it. - Yeah. - He's the edgeiest one of us, right? And it's like, right. And I think everyone's okay with it until they lose you under the general terms and now it's like, oh, you're just them. - Yeah. - It's us and them and you're now them. - I mean, I think for a lot of us, Dave Bazon was actually a huge line in the sand. I mean, I specifically remember Toby telling me what's on the podcast and he wasn't. Well, actually, I think he said he was a little mad because he felt like Dave Bazon was one of us and now he's ditched all of this and there was almost like, you feel betrayed because-- - I started writing the song called, you got Bazon. (laughing) - I really did started that. - Aaron, am I mistaken here to think that if you would have played by the rules where you kind of owned the way to be like a Jeremy Camp type figure in the Christian market at some point? - He didn't have the biceps for that, Joey. (laughing) - I think so. I think that if I would have had a conversation with someone and I don't want to name anybody 'cause I can't remember who it was, but someone at the label was like, you're too honest in your interviews. And that's good. And that's lady. - And that's gonna mess you up with your radio play. You know, I think for me, I think for me like, it all stemmed back to like what we were talking about with that song and us censoring that lyric. I, we wanted to say the word horror and we didn't because, you know, we had these conversations, blah, blah, blah, whatever, whatever. So I feel like for me, when I left under oath, it was like, well, I'll just go all the way the other way and maybe that'll be right because I had all these holes in my life that didn't make any sense, right? So like, I was miserable. I hated everything. I was like, so I'll just become super conservative. And I made this kind of calculated decision. So I'm gonna make this really conservative music and have this really conservative conversation in my mouth and be this really conservative person. And that'll fix me, right? Like, that'll fix me, that'll make everything way out. - But you remember, you remember trying to do it and I didn't mean to talk over that part about saving your marriage, too. But you're saying that you intentionally felt like that you wanted to have more conservative actions and views that you didn't even necessarily hold. You want to move that direction because you're-- - Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. 'Cause I thought that was what was wrong because everything else I had tried didn't work. The guys in my band and I didn't get along under oath being the band. And I had to leave because I had all these anxiety issues. And what I really needed was behavioral medicine and someone to talk to, you know what I mean? But I decided that like, oh, I needed to be this conservative person. So I actually did it, Joey actually did a tour with Jeremy Camp, like a five day tour. And it was, let's just, I did it, yeah, I did it. (all laughing) But, you know, like, I thought that that was the wave for me because nothing else had worked. And what I like I said before when I really needed was medication and somebody to talk to. And to get a divorce. Those are the things that I actually needed. But I thought it was the conservative route was the right route. So I made this capital decision to do that, which was total bullshit. But yeah, to answer your question in short form as well, I thought that that's where I was headed was to be Jeremy Camp minus the muscles. - And then how that turned back this way to the dark side, what brought you back? - To the dark side. - To safe to safeism. I was doing the whole thing touring, being in churches, doing the whole thing. And then I got a phone call. I'm trying to think when it was, 2014 and a thing, or 2013 to play drums for Paramore. Their drummer had gotten injured. And I, they wanted me to come out for three weeks to just fill in for this guy who got injured. And I ended up staying for like four years. But in those first three weeks, it was the most freeing thing I had ever done. And it wasn't because that band is big and it was cushy and blah, blah, blah. It was because I literally had, was for the first time since I quit under oath in 2010. So in three years, was removed from like this shelter that I had built for myself. You know what I mean, like, and by the way, the whole time I was living inside of this shelter, I was just living like I do now, drinking and being, being a regular person, you know what I mean? But on the, on, on the exterior, I was this like super Christian guy, right? So when I joined this paramorphine for these first three weeks, it was like, oh, wow, like I can totally be myself, you know what I mean? Everyone in that band has a thousand questions and they, you know, like they, they're like, we all are, you know, for the most part. So it was like this really freeing like simple time where I could just not really be in the band, just show up and play drums and have all this time on the road to just sort of use for myself and think for myself and be alone with myself. And then those three weeks turned into four years, which turned into, which turned into under oath getting back together and the whole thing, which allowed me all this time away from this cocoon that I had kind of crafted for myself, which was trying to be Jeremy Camp minus the bisector, whatever you said, Matt. So I, I, I had all this time to myself and it really was an interesting turning point in my life, but also a really introspective turning point where I could think about my beliefs and I could think about the creed that I uphold and realize that, wow, like, I don't believe it. Half of this shit that I'm even saying, I'm just, I'm saying it because I feel like it's what I'm supposed to do. And I think a lot of that is knit into a lot of us from growing up super conservative or growing up in church of God or however, however you did it, you know, I grew up church of God, which was like, you know, you don't drink and you don't watch certain television shows and you don't do this and you don't do that. And those things are knit into you from so far back. So when your life goes south, you're like, oh, well, all that shit my parents said was probably right. So maybe I should do that. This is pretty, you know, you feel like it was payback because you watch too many movies with boobs in them. No, I mean, just like I said, I mean, that sounds ridiculous, but, you know, yes, you know what I mean? Like, so that's why I kind of built this cocoon for myself and that time in Paramore allowed me to step away from myself, built cocoon and be like, oh, shit, like I'm really, really far off based from what I even socially believe and also what I spiritually believe. And now I need to figure out and pick apart what that actually is. So that time really allowed me to do that and save me from becoming Jeremy Camp. So no offense, no offense to Jeremy Camp in his fan base. Yeah, bless you, bless you, Jeremy. I mean, do you think it, and I don't even know if I'm coming from a spiritual perspective here or not, but do you think that some people are supposed to play by the rules in order to exist in that place similar to artistically if someone feels like, you know, I'm supposed to be on the radio, then you have to play by their rules too. Like it is, is there ever like a, a mandate or maybe like a conviction to play by rules for a certain agenda? I mean, what if it's to support your family or something? See, I don't know because I feel like it's funny because when we talk about stuff like this, just us as friends, we've known each other for so long, like, I, you know, I can hear myself saying, well, you know, that stuff helps a lot of people, man, you know, I can hear Toby saying that, you know, like, these, you know, this kind of music and these people and this belief system helps a lot of people. But if you really take the husk off, you know, all five of us here on the phone, we would all say, no, that's bullshit. You're just polluting people's minds. That's what, that's what we all really actually probably believe. So I don't know if there's a mandate or not, Joey, I mean, I, I mean, for me, I'm like, when I, you know, I, I looked at my mom one day recently and this is, this is a really difficult conversation. But in the semi recently and I said, mom, why do you believe what you believe? You know, my mom grew up church of God and still serves strangely in the church and there's an amazing woman, but you know, has a joy FM sticker, which is like the local Christian station on her car and, you know, like the whole thing and I, mom, why do you believe what you believe in she goes, I just know that I know, honey, you know, it's a very southern woman. I just know that I know. And I feel like I don't want my kid to grow up that way. And that's awful. And that would hurt my mom's feelings to hear say, but let me clarify like the mandate and people knowing that they know and people promoting knowing that they know, I feel like it's pollution for us because I want my child and I want the next generation of people and this is me speaking my opinion, but I want people to be able to make their own decisions because like Tim and I and most of you guys like, there was no decision to be made. You just believed what you believe because you knew that you knew because God was real because he was real and Jesus Christ on the cross because he died on the cross. But why? Why? Like how did that happen? What's the reality in that is that is that real like I was allowed to ask those questions as a kid. So as far as the mandate thing goes, in my opinion, it's dangerous because it's not allowing people to to ask those questions and I sat in a lot of meetings, you know, with radio promoters and shit for Christian radio that were like, you know, you have to write this type of song that allows people to feel this certain way because this is the demographic. These people need Jesus and they need help and, you know, a lot of them are single and or their marriages are failing and they got four kids and they're driving their kids to soccer. I mean, this is verbatim stuff that I was told, like, this is, you know, they have a mini van. I mean, stupid stuff like that. They have a mini van and life is really hard for them and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, the reality is though, maybe they just need to talk to a counselor. You know, maybe, maybe they need, maybe they need to like ask the questions and get the questions out of their mind so their life can get better. So as far as the mandate thing goes, I personally think it's bullshit and I know that was a long answer. But yeah. Okay, folks, let me just give you the facts. The blue apron facts. Fact one, blue apron is the number one fresh ingredient and recipe delivery service in the country. Fact two. Blue apron's mission is to make incredible home cooking accessible to everyone. Fact three, blue apron achieves this by supporting a more sustainable food system, setting the highest standards for ingredients and building a community of chefs. And fact four, blue apron offers three plants, a two person meal plan, a family meal plan and oh yes, a wine plan. I'm not joking. 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Get your first three meals free. It's okay. That's kind of interesting from the point of view of you said, like we said, when you said, uh, I know just because I know, now that's kind of a cute answer and it kind of is a reassuring answer in a way. But on the other hand, you got to think about if you were a kid and you're trying to figure out the most important thing in the world, obviously by the culture you're in, Christian culture. And you know that the other people around you are saying, well, I just know because I know and I trust me. I do know then if you inside of yourself as a little kid, imagine being seven years old or 12 years old and going, but I don't know that I know yet. Yeah. And yet to live in that. That's terrifying. Sure. Like that's like damaging. It has to be. Yeah. And I think the hardest, the hardest part for me, I was just having this conversation literally last week, but I was having a conversation with one of my super conservative, uh, relatives. And he was like, so you don't believe in hell and this? I'm like, no, I mean, I'm not saying anything technically possible. But I mean, realistically, absolutely not. And you know, started saying, well, this is what this says and the Bible says this. And I just quickly mentioned a Richard Roar quote that says, you know, the literal truth is the lowest form of truth. And I'm like, yeah, I believe the Bible is real. I also believe a lot of other books are real in the sense that they have reality and impact in real human lives in application. But if you're trying to read it like a textbook, it's different. And then you get crazy people thinking that like 500 foot, you know, whales, the size of malls have like oxygen tanks and food in there so you can chill for four days. You know, it's like, or three days. It's like, you start thinking these fanciful things and you're like, no, there is an arc and there was only two things. And it's like, that might have happened 'cause none of us were there. But like, let's all just at least shoot the shit straight. Like, it probably didn't. Does the story of Jonah or Noah or creation or the universe taking care of us somehow some way, not resonate with me? Absolutely does. Probably more profoundly than just going until I find New York. I mean, I guess that story was for them. You know, it's like, you get in these reality versus truth things. The only response after I said my Richard's word comment was literally turn to me and goes, you're gonna listen and take a quote from some random guide that you've never seen or never met and have that change your whole faith. And I'm literally in my head going, Paul, Peter, Jesus. None of us have ever met. Translated. Because it's exactly what we did. Different languages, different millennia. And at some point, you just hit a spot where you realize, like, we all believe what we believe and no one knows what they know because they don't. And I think that's the real thing. And then you go, well, how do you call bullshit on this person, on this person? And I think the problem with Christianity specifically, probably a lot of religions, but at least our Western Christian lives in America, is like everything from cooking shows to Olympic divers, to SATs are graded on a 1 to 100. And I think Christianity is the only thing that's either you 100% fail or you 100% pass of flying colors. And I think is Jolos Dean right? Hell no, he's not right. But he actually is. A portion of what Jolos Dean says every Sunday is right. And a large portion of what Jolos Dean says is drastically wrong. Is everything I say on this podcast right? No, but am I right talking right now? Absolutely. You just have to figure out how to grade me. See, I think it's 60% right? Or 50% right or 20% right? Stop saying Tim said fuck or under us said this or Aaron preached and now he's saying fuck this. Like now he was in 100, now he's out 100. We're all just varying versions. - And you don't know what your number is. - You don't know what your number is anyway, and you shouldn't try to self evaluate. Your number of rightness to you, it's as right as you can be at the moment all the time. But that Richard Rort technique is great. That's basically drop a Richard Rort quote to a real strict Bible person. It's like off bug spray to those people. It's a spray, yeah. Just say some Richard Rort here, but they'll leave you alone pretty quick. - The one rule in conservative Christianity is don't believe anything from anyone you haven't met or seen or verified. - Yeah, it's the lowest way of intelligence that there can be. It's why I believe that the Christians get duped and are fully on board with Fox News. All your information can only come from one source. So when people talk about the Bible, they only test it against the Bible. - Yeah. - You don't do that with anything. You only test your news against, well, Fox News said this and that means it's right, and I know what I don't trust the other ones. - And that's so lazy. That's exactly like when my kids say, "Dad, why do I have to do this?" And I just go, "Because I'm dad." That is the laziest thing I can do really. Now I don't care, I'll do that more, but I'm just saying that's a lazy way out. That's not explaining anything. It's just saying, "Well, I'm this and that's what it's going to be." And I could way more take the time to explain, look at other options, whatever it might be. Like you said, I mean, there are, the idea that you could say 100% I believe that Jonah was in the whale, but any other miracle in any other book is fallacy and the way of Satan. That isn't that just the most bizarre thing in the world that you are certain all other miracles or any other stories are bullshit, but as long as it's in this book that some people put together that you also don't know. - And it's unquestive. - It's true. - Everybody else is very impossible. - It's literally unquestionable. I think that's the funny thing. It's like the argument for apologists is like, look at the universe. And we're the only rock uniquely created, custom made, whatever, Rolls-Royce of planets that has the right axis, the right environment, the right H2O, the right all of it, right? And then you flip it and you can use those same facts as an atheist going with the amount of, the billions of planets and galaxies we've discovered currently. There's one that has life. So humans on Earth right now is the equivalent of a human right now winning the lottery 48 times. That's the odds of this working. And people win the lottery all the time by chance and their idiots. So like we're just an idiot roll of the dice from the universe and like one in every 40 billion kind of works on accident, right? And both of those arguments make sense. - Yes. - Is that you know what I mean? - Yes. - Is that the Christian right? Yes, but you have to grade it on a scale. That's not fuck yeah or screw you. It's, we're both right. Let's figure out how to reconcile those. It is unique and we can feel special. And it is so random that the math doesn't make sense and this could all be nothing. Both of those things have validity, you know? - And with the Bible too, I mean, and I come from the camp where I don't think the Bible says about itself that it's infallible. But I mean, I just don't understand how people can't see the fact that if the Bible says it's infallible, that is such a circular reasoning. And I've actually heard Mark Driscoel when I used to listen to him all the time. He said, why do I believe that the Bible's true? He said because the Bible says that is true. And I was like, you are a smart man. Like how in the world can you say that and expect us to run with it like that? But when these conversations take place, I think of people like Tim Keller who I have a lot of respect for, I think he's super smart. I get a lot out of. And I think to myself though, what percentage of his convictions and beliefs are based on what he was taught by people that he respected and revered. But at the same time, these people had to be fallible. You know, so I hear what he has to say. And I'm like, yeah, but he doesn't have like this. He doesn't have dibs on truth. He doesn't have like this inner source that all of us don't have. He's also still a man, but he's still speaking with the utmost conviction. That's what's hard for me is to put a guy like that in the same category of everybody else, but you have to. - Well, let me give you a tweet. Let me give you a tweet from Tim Keller from 22 hours ago. See what you all make of this tweet. I'm dead serious, somebody sent it earlier. And so I thought that's funny that you brought it up. 22 hours ago from Tim Keller. Unless you believe in hell, you will never know how much Jesus loves you. - That didn't even make sense. That's a guy I really regret. - I mean, so I mean, you cannot deny hell and even really understand Jesus' love is good. - I just, I get the sentiment. I think he's right. I think, you know, if I felt like there literally was a bajillion, trillion, infinity years of me sitting in a hot oven. And the only way that I got out of bed is through Jesus. And yeah, I probably would have the utmost respect for someone that would save me from something so horrible. And maybe when you rationalize it, that's probably not really what we're talking about. Does that diminish it? Jesus's power, maybe? But so again, like, it seems to be like, fuck him, he's bullshit or whatever. Like, but like, he's kind of right. He's just, he got like 10 out of 100. He failed still in my brain. - Well, he didn't leave room for the possibility that the interpretation is wrong. Like, oh, sorry, I just misread that one. Like, that's not also a footnote of the tweet. Oh, yeah. Some of our tradition had some of that interpretation wrong. That's not, he's locked that off and said, and if you do believe that, you are on, you know, you're out or there's something exclusive about believing the right way. - Or else like, is it still leaves questions? Like, you could also just barely change that little bit and go, you won't understand Jesus's love or the creator's love unless he creates an oven that you burn in forever. (laughing) - Who created Hale? Where did Hale come from? - Yeah, dude. - Did you break it down to like a layman axiom? - That immediately gives me a question in my brain and that's what is really tough. I wanted to ask a question getting back to under oath in the music where you all at all, when y'all broke up and were called at quits, do you think all this was going on in your heads and you just couldn't talk about it? Like, was this something that led to the original breakup? Like, do you think you guys weren't able to be open and honest and as comfortable back then? - I don't know that, I don't know that we, I don't, at least for me and I'm speaking for myself, I don't know that we had a mental capacity yet to unpack the use of Christianies to unpack this type of conversation. Like, I think that like what I believe now and you know, this kind of ties in with what you guys were just talking about us. So, Christians use the Bible and we all know historically that the Bible was canonized which means a bunch of people got together and decided what was going to be in it. It's a really rough explanation of canonization. But in the Bible, what evangelical Christians hold too is the great commission, you know, go and make disciples of all men. And we have another scene in the Bible where the transfiguration happens where Jesus ascends into heaven and then he tells the disciples, he's like, go and make disciples of all men and the funny part about that and this is my major rub with modern Christianity and this is my major rub with the whole thing. He doesn't look at the 11 disciples that were there because one hung himself in a field. He can say, you're gonna be Methodist and you're gonna be Catholic and you're gonna be left-wing and you're gonna be right-wing and you're gonna say shit and you're gonna have a beer and you're gonna not wear pants. All the women have to wear dresses and he didn't do that. It was just like go and do this and we have no real handbook for what that's supposed to look like, right? And I think that's why you have people that say the thing. of I know that I know, like I was talking about earlier I think that's why we have that. But I think at our age when the band broke up and we went home and the whole thing blah, blah, blah. I don't think we were able to look at something like that and say well this doesn't make any sense. And I think that a lot of Christians aren't able to do that because they're too afraid. And I'm not saying that listen I got balls of steel because I'm going to question the Bible and say call bullshit on the Bible. Like I think that yeah, we just grew to a point in our lives now we can have these conversations because we're adults. Man, the call out culture has really affected you to the core. Now you call bullshit on the Bible. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, you're supposed to call out. Yeah, I think like I think we I think we've all kind of settled in. And in a weird way, I think we've all kind of always been the people that we are now. Yeah, I've changed a lot. I mean, some people might think I've done a 180, but I feel like I was doing a things I felt it was right. And it was out of service, not out of heart. Like it was still felt weird to like pray at a work to our Bible study. But that's what I felt like it's all interesting. You know, I don't think any of us. I remember going back and all of us were at those things and like we were doing it out of service. Yeah, that's right. I've never gotten nothing like man, I really want to know what that bottom of my toilet smells like, but I still clean it. Because I just feel like it's a necessary part of owning a home. But it's never something that I felt called to do. It's like if I could not have a toilet and it cleaned itself, that would be awesome. Are you saying you always felt phony praying? I've always felt funny praying or praying to public or running a thing in the Bible study. I think praying in public is the hardest. I pray a lot. I still pray a lot now, but I think prayer has always been really personal. And I've always felt like I've naturally or intentionally tried to be a leader, even if I'm not good at it. And I think in faith, that was kind of the bad version. I think there's a good and bad version of everyone right in my natural positive state. I jump in. I do the work that people don't want to do. Naturally, I kind of end up somehow taking charge. But I have the vision and the best of everyone in my head. And I'm going to make sure everyone's taken care of. And then on the flip side, once you're in that head space, like now you have to be. So it's like, well, who's leading? I'll pray. I'll close. I'll do this. Make sure I'm still part of the leadership group and not just in attendee. And Aaron seen both of those sides very strongly over the last 15 years. And he can tell you probably better than I can. When it's bad, it's real bad. And when it's good, it's probably really good. At least he didn't make records out of service because I did that. Sure. But it's like, but I think like for me, like it was the only option I can say. And I actually think you had a guest on the other day that said this. He's like not to associate it with coming out of the closet because that's a very culture. Oh, that was the 11 year old Jewish guy. That guy is weird. I have another thought on that kid. Go for it. Go for it. But I think what he said was very, it struck me, you know, like I think we still struggle with like, you know, telling our friends the things we do and being okay with going, yeah, like I do whatever the thing is, you know, I like this or I smoke that or I do this. And we're still like not really our true selves to most people. Even to ourselves and each other. We're still like, now that that's not really a thing we're still working through that when reality it's a thing here there. And I think that's something we've really fought is like trying to be authentic without taking the uneducated teenage approach and going, oh, now we're free. Well, guess what? and blow and fuck words on every song for everybody, you know? Like, because that's not who we are. But there's a part of us that just wants to be like, and blow up everything. But deep down, like when I sit by myself, I know that there's something and there's peace and there's love and there's service and there's community that needs to be followed through. And I'll circle back to your 11-year-old missionary, Evangelical preacher kid, like he was raised up like psychodically in this weird culture and then swung just purely out of almost abandonment to Judaism through a couple of random events and then swung back. And I think like if he would have grown, if you would have grown up as a hardcore Jew, he would have defected from Judaism and swung really hard towards the freedom of, you know, speaking in tongues. Speaking in tongues Christianity and I think like he kept using things like Judaism and you guys even kind of backed it up like Judaism seems so inclusive and that's why it was so good. He's still into the believing. You know, if he was raised as hardcore Muslim, he would have gone here and then back to a middle ground. I think we all rebel on what we're raised on. And so to say that where you just came from is bad and where you're going is good. I think we all have to sling shot somewhere and bounce off and play a little ping pong before the ball rests in the middle, hopefully in a stable spot. And I think that's what that guy was doing very ferociously and probably moderately destructively in my personal opinion, maybe to himself or maybe to others. But like we all do that. I saw so much of myself in him like, oh, I'm not a Christian or hell isn't real. Well, then I guess I'm a universalist to check me out and that's who cares, but that's not what I am. You know, but that's where people want me to be because you have to pick a side. And I think and I think that's a problem. Matt, how fucked up was it that you literally said we'll talk to you in a couple of years when you're Hindu or whatever you said. I couldn't resist. Oh, my God. I was so good. I couldn't resist that. I thought he had a good enough sense of humor for that. But I mean, that's kind of he didn't have as much of a sense of humor as I expected. I don't think that landed. Yeah, I'm still glad I did. That's like my fuck word in the album. You see that was my expression. I needed to say that. I would have regretted it for ever if I didn't say it. So I made myself say it. Same as y'all, so fucking the song. So speaking of y'all's music, what is that? Speaking of y'all's music, I am very interested to talk about that a little bit. And I'll break your balls on one more point. I saw y'all in that arena would bring me the horizon on that time. Last time y'all came sad on it was unbelievable. And you told me and then we'll know I called him. I was like, this band is doing what they're supposed to be doing here. This is crazy. And it was your old music and in that situation, what in the new stuff yet. And now I hear this new album and you guys are going to really do it. It's amazing. It's exciting. And I think that is the place supposed to be and you're going to have musical you're going to be playing in arenas and having, you know, hits on the big time radio. So I need you to apologize all this time to us for knocking us for liking bands like Metallica and the Beatles. I want an apology for that. Yeah, Y'all dis up, Emory for liking bands like Metallica and the Beatles and saying they sucked as if they're too. Metallica does suck. The Beatles are pretty dope. And I think I've warmed up to them. I remember you saying the Beatles suck though. I know I did. And I apologize to Paul McCartney. I apologize to freaking Kirk Hammett and whatever this guy is who sells art. The drummer of Drone like a large or rich. Yeah, I'm just so good. They're good. You're looking at you. You're clowning me now. No, those guys can play circles around us. But when they all get together, they don't make that. That's vehemently not true that they can place that Metallica can play circles around you. That's vehemently not true. Metallica is very popular. And that's rad. And I'm glad that they have some moments that are, but they are not better musicians than you. That's, that's not fair. Maybe Kirk came in and played better solo than you. But that's just vehemently not true. No offense. Okay. Well, then great. Yeah. No. So can you guys apologize to me for still liking Metallica? No. But I am asking about the direction of your music. I do want to cover that here. Where is there a moment when people were criticizing your music when it was first coming out in the comments because I was watching it and I was nervous. I was scared when it first started coming out. And it was getting aggro on Twitter. And the sound is more commercial to be sure. And I'm thinking, are they going to get fried for this or is this right? Is this going to work? And I was nervous for a minute. How was there a moment where you thought you thought you thought we were going to put it out and was going to sell like 500. No, I just thought the, you know, you saw those reactions and then the song was and I saw y'all fighting with fans. And there was more negative comments than than before. So it was like, is this going to, are they going to be able to get through? Is this going to bog them down? Is that going to be the most going to be the narrative here? And you guys push through and it's amazing. I had it. It's crazy. I had a two phase, I had a two phase reaction. The first one, as you saw, you said, Gillespie gets about 75% aggro on Twitter. I had that reaction. And then I started thinking about it. Like you got like 60 60% love 40% hate. And when you got that much going on, 40% hate is might as well be 90. Because that 40% is so much longer. Yeah. Yeah. So it was 40% either. It might have been 15% but it's loud. It's all right. No, it wasn't 40% but yeah. I mean, I freaked out about it. And then I started thinking like, wait a minute. This many people are concerned about what we're doing now, which means they still hold on to a piece of music that they make. 12 years we made 12 years ago and if there would have been the internet after chasing safety would have been the same thing before when to find a great line got teased like oh they're just what are they now motor heads like all their riders heavy music you know like they could have been really great like it would have the same thing would have happened but what really got me to kind of surface is the fact that 12 years later people still care about something we made 12 years ago you know what I mean so that saved my ass because I was quickly spiraling down to where you probably were a mat like I was low man yeah I mean and for and for us like it you said something a few minutes ago that I want to clarify to you it's it's a more commercial sound and you're right but I can truthfully say for me and for the four of us like like this is this is what we wanted to make you know what I mean it wasn't like you know how you listened to music and you listen to a band that you were friends with and they make like a decidedly commercial turn and you're like oh man that's a really try hard set of songs you know what I mean like this of course we actually we actually I actually believe in this you know like we actually we actually worked our asses off like and this is what came out like we didn't there was no way we were going to come out with it to find the great line part two it just we don't we don't write those kind of songs anymore you know what I mean like it's like you don't wear the same vans you wore and wore two or oh five and if you do you've got foot problems you know what I mean like we we're not we're not those same people so this it wasn't going to happen sure like it wasn't going to happen the way the people wanted it too so there there was inevitably going to be some backlash because I just can't I can't step back into the same shoes I worked 12 years ago I'm not going to do it well yeah you're different people and that ties into what we've been talking about in the rest of the conversation but right honest enough people I'm curious if you're honest enough or if you could say it clearly enough to even say that there's a previous version of you that would be judgmental of what you're doing now there's some version of you that would have also criticized what you the current version of you well I for me I've always been the guy that liked the the wussy music if you will I've always been the guy that's like oh he likes pop music so you know he's done you know but but yeah you're right and I think more from some of the other members of the band especially Tim didn't from me yeah more to him than you on that one yeah I mean I think there's probably three or four songs on this album that define the great line me if someone else would have put it out on work sort like co-heat or something I would have been like goodbye yeah right that's what I'm asking if you if you can see that may for you of previous version of you would have had the same reaction some of the bad fans yeah I get that you know and and I I mean honestly I even struggle with that in the studio like some of these songs that are more straightforward like to me interesting isn't well written and I think what what really gets Aaron off and speed off is like they love of like they love presentation like they love the plating and that the wine comes out and the salad comes out and then a soft course and then the big meal and then a little espresso like they love the ritual of the and the delivery of a song which is the structure of the flow and the movement I love going to a sushi barn going give me three bottles of all of your wine and bring all of it and just go ham yeah and like that's like my wave like I think something that's exciting is like super spike I mean I eat my tie super spicy I eat my sushi raw as hell like I drink you know diesel IPAs all the beers you guys are making fun of a couple weeks ago like all that stuff like that's my wave I like interesting I like different and I even think just being different and this is where like I said I'm good sometimes and I'm bad sometimes the same person Aaron's good sometimes Aaron's bad sometimes same person is like I would rather be different and less good then be great but feel like I can apply our greatness and see five other peers yeah like that's my thing like with rapture you know that's our first single and when we first heard the demo I had to wrap my head around going this is a great song you can't diss the plating but could any chef make this song if the answer is yes then I don't want to be a part of it right and and and instead what we said is Tim has all these fucked up ideas that don't make any sense but instead of just going those are like your artistic like tangents when you're going to your 11 year old man's high Alaska trips and then we have these like superstructured songs that feel like they're they're lacking a little bit of maybe like solar injection it's like how do we fuse it and I think that's really where we go I think we talked about that on break it down so I won't go back into that and have a repeat but I think for the first time the structured dudes were like yo can we just make a song and play it well instead of just go on a tangent and never come back and just bang our heads for eight minutes and the answer is yes where it would have been no and so it's like how do we take something and make it feel structured and and and very almost Catholic in the sense of like there's a formula we're going to go here but there's beautiful things in the Catholic church and there's beautiful things in like the psycho Betty Hinchurch and again they're probably like multiple percentages of each other but you know what I mean people get off on different things some people need excitement and inspiration and some people need rhythm and structure and I think we're all so different that we just had to figure out what this is and I think the reason why that record sounds like it does because we all lent each other's ears enough to make my super weird stuff make sense yeah and Aaron and speed super played and structured stuff feel a little bit more because it already had feeling and when those guys play it's like you know it's them and there's already a net and eight soul but sometimes it's like how do we like jack up the bridge just enough to give it that like whoa there's the eh under oath thing you know and I think we did that you know and there's ari parts and there's Vidy parts and then you're just back to chorus three and it's like I never thought we'd be in chorus three again but here we are and it works and so it's like we just work together to go what do we all need from the dinner we're doing yourself a maximum dis your mood you're doing yours if you're in a band or you're a chef or in a relationship you're doing yourself a maximum disservice if you don't use every ingredient available to you yeah you know what I mean and I think for a long time in the reason why in my opinion after defined the great line under oath records got very linear and I'm not just speaking the one I wasn't on but the one I was on after defined the great line like we just we became very linear and I think what happened there is we started only using six or seven ingredients that we that we held in our bag yeah you know what I mean like I think that if you're going to be a good chef and I like the food analogy Tim because it makes so much sense if you're going to be a good chef you're going to use every strength you have you know what I mean and I think that we did that on define the great line and then after that we stopped using all of our strengths and started really cooking with four or five ingredients and they were the ones that you like you know what I mean Tim and I don't yeah I totally that's not fair to your consumer you know even if the consumers it gets used yeah well yeah but we're abandoning like correct yeah yeah if you're a chef though like and you go to a restaurant like you can only go to in and out so many times before you're like I need something with a little more sustenance you know what I mean like you can only eat in and out eight or nine times before you're like yeah I'm gonna die if I eat this again like I got a I got a I need a piece of lettuce I need some vinaigrette like I need some panko breadcrumbs I need to like you know what I mean like let's make this let's make this another thing and I think that we gave ourselves and we gave our public the same thing three times in a row and and I think that the beauty of erase me is the fact that we were all able to put our shit aside and open the whole pantry yeah you know what I mean and that's why you that's why you've got the third course because even though Tim doesn't want to cook the the third course I want to taste the fucking third piece of steak you know what I mean so like I'm gonna fight for that and he's gonna go okay you can have your third steak and I'm gonna put some pepper on that bitch you know what I mean like so y'all deep in the food analogy but you've got it out yeah yeah I'm hungry fail now and you can eat because you're on ants I just to mean I know damn it you all think well this is that's the interesting take it so is this officially the the direction or do you think the next the next world will be more ingredients like I mean you know direction really zero yeah no no I mean like we're already working on like weird stuff like I'm working on stuff I mean I have steps that sounds like napdomarco and run the jewels and crazy stuff and you know Aaron and you know Rowdy our drum tech just made like a country record so everyone's like exercising and expanding so when we get back to build the next house I think we're all gonna have a lot more tools and we're gonna have you the tools we used on that the last record race me so much more in different ways like it's not gonna be yeah so you're race me isn't the new direction for the next decade it's that's race me and whatever you'll do next is whatever y'all will be I think we have to what if we said original Easter you know it like you can't like if what if a race a race me so diverse it's like what if no frames in the direction then we're gonna be kid A what if raptures in the direction then we're gonna be a radio rock band like there's so many directions even within the project it's like I think the one thing I will say is and Aaron correct me from my actually totally just cut you off because I only have one ear and I saw you talking I think the one thing that we're not ever gonna do again that I can see because as Aaron said we opened up the whole pantry is we were so linear that an hour felt like one song you know we would write these things that had to stop at three minutes called songs and they'd have their own arcs but the way we would structure our records we wanted the whole thing to feel like a song and by track seven you get let down for a jam and then you come back up with a heater and then you go down into this and then we end with a sad bastard like jump off a cliff go kill yourself and then back it start over you know I think that's gonna be be less in our future, and it's going to be more unique song oriented that all come from the same family, but they're not all identical twins. And I would say that's the one direction I think we did set here in a few comments I've seen. Like every song is so different, but they're so good. But I just remember being able to play this album when I'm working out and it would just get me through for an hour. It's like, yeah, because it was just the whole time. Right. Now we're not doing anymore. I disagree a bit in the way that I agree and disagree. And I agreed that the whole arc of things will look different. But I think what we've just done is freed ourselves back up to be under oath. And what I mean by that is chasing safety had all the success. And it's funny because we, you know, we're in rehearsals now and play some of those songs in there hilariously poppy. Yeah. Like their chord structures and the progressions. And I love seeing fans talking about how it raced me a sell out pop. And then they say their favorite songs, boy, restaurant, I'm like, dog, you are not listening to the same headphones I am because this is, this is like, yeah, but I think we're going to allow ourselves to be the band that we set out to be meaning we put that record out super poppy. After that, we put out the find the great line, which is dark and strange in a journey. And then we just followed the linear line that Tim was just talking about. I think what's going to happen now is we're going to allow ourselves to what if we want to go back and make a weird ass record next record? It'll be okay. Like, and then the next record might be chasing safety part to super pop. There might be all drum machines in a vocoder who knows? But I think we have finally freed ourselves up. I think you raced me as our way of freeing ourselves up to make the music we want to make. Yeah. Well, I congratulate you and I really mean the word congratulations, but I mean it deep. I mean it on the personal level of the, you know, the changes you guys have made in your personal lives and on the, the album itself and its success and on what you just said. That's congratulations. Good on you for figuring out what you want to do, knowing it and been able to be comfortable in it in the moment. That's encouraging and it's badass. So thank you. And what y'all are doing overwhelmingly. So is is the support you actually do have? Like I know there's always going to be haters. We've had them every single band knows what haters are and especially with the internet. But I mean, it sounds like you guys have a great label. You do have great fans that really do still care about your music and are excited about it. This album was what number four on the charts. I mean, you guys are killing it. It was a good decision to be authentic and who you are now. That that that was always going to be the right call. Yeah, and I think I think that's really where our success is really always come from is I feel like we started being real. And even if people thought we were weird or like too poppy or too heavy, they saw the realness where like I need to dig in more. And I think, you know, over the course of the last 10, 15 years, like we built not a sound or an image but we built just an expectation of authenticity. And there was a lot of people like all the stuff that was seeing, you know, you guys are posties now that, you know, really mean shit, you know, all this stuff. There were a bunch of people going, I don't like this song, but I actually like the first song. And if I know the under oath that I've known for 15 years, I'm going to wait for the I'm comes out because there's going to be some bangers on that. And it was like wild to see people literally coming to our defense going, I don't like, I don't like rapture either because they're still listening to it or whatever, right? But like they're also saying, but if I know these boys and they stay true, like I know they always do and will now we got to grab the album. We got to copy because there's going to be something in there. And then literally 24 hours after the record leaked, our Reddit forum was just like, Oh, never mind. It's my bad. Okay, cool. Oh, wow, I actually start liking rapture now. Oh, wait, I really like the last song. I didn't think I liked the last song. Like it's it just takes a little time. And I think that's the problem with new bands is no one's going to make art that takes introspection and intellect to understand because no one has that attention span under oath by the grace of God, the universe, whatever that is. Like we actually have fans that will sit through a record and go, I thought that record was dodged. But I know I love this band. So I'm going to listen to it again. And you know what I mean? Like, and they'll kind of get they'll be okay with getting derailed and then jump back on and follow it through. And I think that's what's happening. And we took a risk there because the way we structured even the song track listing and the songs we chose, we were huge risk, right? But it's like we know that the core trusts us enough to go if they don't get it. It's not because we did it wrong. It's because they're not getting it yet. And they're going to trust us. And there's a lot of people that have come back going, dude, like I kind of skipped this song four times and then I woke up kind of singing it. Now I'm back on it and we could later visit my favorite and never mind the first songs my favorite now. And they're they're they're spending time with it and letting it evolve in their own brains, their own emotions. I think that's what we've always done. And we're one of the few bands right now that I think has that attention span where we don't have to hook you in. And if you like it, you double tap. And if you don't, you don't, you know, double tap down. And then we're fighting over Twitter wars and streaming. You know, it's like, I think the things that we we saw on the onset, we knew we're going to come from Rapture because we knew we were throwing a really weird carrot out without any context. And people like, what the hell? And we knew that we were just kind of like, check this pod out. But like once the record comes out, I know for a fact, when you get to song seven, you're going to be like, damn, this is well-rounded. I like songs more than others, but it's well-rounded and it's the undergrowth I know. I knew that for a fact as the artist. Like we have made everything that everyone's loves. And I knew that as the guy who the cook, you're going to like your plate. You might not finish all your greens because it's got a weird seasoning on it, but you're definitely going to be able to get through at least six out of eight courses. Trust me. Thank you for coming back, you know? Well, great. I hope they leave you a good gratuity at the end of the night. Well, yeah, like I said, I'll let you guys get out of here. I know you got to get back to rehearsal, but good on you for all of it. And congratulations is the word. So, yeah, thank you so much. Love you guys. I'm always being available. You got it. Come back any time. You and I always talk and, you know, I feel like every time we talk, it's just like whatever you guys want. Come on. Just never had a connection like this in a different medium where it's just we're always welcome. And there's always something to talk about. So good on you and Toby and Joey. It's just like you always say anytime. Emory wants to open for under oath. We're welcome to same kind of thing. Open door policy. I feel like I just text Matt that I'm mad about guests. That's all I take. I'm sorry about that. I apologize. And just to promote one more thing, Aaron. You are actually doing all the music for God's not dead seven, right? Back to the old contract still lingering around this obligation. One more out. That's the one where they use a drill dough on Atheist. It's awesome. All right. Thank you guys. See you. All right. Peace. Man, we got into it with those old boys from under oath. It's just so weird thinking that it was only what like two or three years ago when everybody thought they were done. And now here they are just flourishing young man. I think I think I think we're getting Satan and the principalities and winning souls for Christ. I think we're there. They're big brother in a sense as bandwise and they just saw hey, those old folks don't stop. And so why what are we doing here on the sidelines? If Emory can keep going, my God, we got to go a hip out at any moment. They're still doing it. Now Toby, why don't you like Spencer? Like why? That's not even a funny joke. Even a good joke. That made Toby a little squirmy. No, I don't get squirmy. I just like good jokes. I'm a man of great, great humor. Sorry about that. All right. Well, let's talk about this old BC club. We love the BC club. This is how this podcast that you're listening to right now works because the BC club was a woman. Would you leave your wife for it? Yes. Wow. Yeah, I would. Jess would want me to. That's how amazing of a wife she is. That's her heart. She would say, leave me. Go to the BC club. This is how we do it. We like to send perks. You get an extra episode, a whole personalized episode just for the clubbers. Nobody else gets it. There's all kinds of different levels you can get to where you can get different things like shirts, pin, stickers, more than I can even say. So go to more than you can ask our match more. You're going to ask you an imagine. So they where do they go to BC? The BC club. This is the BC club. I want everybody to rewind Toby's whole spiel here. It's been full of emphasis with absolutely zero specifics or details. Yeah, that's the way you just rewind it. Listen to Toby's pitch for the BC club. Don't get that away. There's just things and they're all you know what I did. I did the Donald Trump thing. We love it. It's going to be really loud. It's going to be really awesome. You're going to love it. It's going to be huge. There's some people that really like being at it. It's got all website address. Who could know what that is? I mean, phenomenal. It's going to be unbelievable. It just is. I mean, yeah. So Joey, with that being said, tell some of the super smart people that were, you know, in this thing to get, give some names. We like to tell, we'd like to. Is this honoring? What is this? Edifying and honoring these people, Joey? Yeah, it sure is. We want to welcome the following people to the BC club. And that is Dan Coke, Dave David Bazon, Melissa Gilbert, and parentheses. It says Little House on the prairie and Tom Hanks and Helen Hunt, the couple on campus. a way. And I know you don't have he's written down, but I'm really enjoying the how many more diversity of your club. Just three more like I got some females in now. I have to get some different. Just keep going random from your nostalgic brain. Just do it. Michael Chang, the tennis player. And last, last but not least, uh, Lu Alcindor. And that's Kareem Aduja bar. He actually changed his name back to Lu Alcindor because he left the muscle. Yeah, he turned his back on them. Um, and then we do have some other non celebrities. I did want to get those celebrities out of the way. And so we've got some, uh, these people send in their sins. Yeah, I have their sins right here. If you let me pull it up, uh, I got them right here. Yeah. All right, Christopher grooms Chris goes into the 10 items or less line with 17 items and then writes a check and has to barry a pen to do it. That's an ISO. I don't know about sin, but that's definitely a sandwich. That's sin in the Bible. Andrew Warley. He loves cup of fart. That's where he cups his hand to his butt. Farts in it and then brings it up to his nose and smells it. And yes, he dealt it. Joseph Culdron loves saying guns don't kill people. I do. Joseph be rough. Sniffs his dental floss after he uses it. That's not a sin and get me out of here. No, it's not. John Davis says he watches gay porn to support gay people. Good Lord. Steve Baines always yells that was wet after he farts. It's a sin. You're right. You don't think well on your feet with these kind of things. I think you're the most entertaining human maybe in the whole world, but you say shut the fuck up. Seriously, just just just one time in my whole damn life. Just do that for me. You want me to give me a present? You don't have to give me a present next year. What do you want me to do? Shut the fuck up. When do you want me to do that? By when? Concurrently to the time of now. All right, we're out of here.