#377 Jason Flom with Tyrone Noling

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on humor me with Robert Smigel and friends me and hilarious guests from Bob Odin Kirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier this week my guest SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeters side L helped an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way the podcast superhuman documented it all embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to superhuman on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles so how do you keep going? On hurdle with Emily Abadi we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes coaches and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level at this scale being able to fail in the front of the entire world. Like I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to hurdle with Emily Abadi on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One founding partner of iHeartWomenSports. Our original coverage of Tyrone Knowling's case was released on December 1st 2021. Since then there have been some developments. This reissue comes with an update from Ohio and this is Project Staff Attorney Brian Howe on where Tyrone's case currently lies. In 1990 18-year-old Tyrone Knowling lived with friends whose ages range from 14 to 20 in Alliance Ohio. With no real adult supervision or resources the boys engaged in several minor robberies including one where Tyrone had accidentally fired a stolen 25 caliber pistol into the floor and no one was hurt. The young men were arrested and Tyrone and his friend Gary St. Clair played guilty. Around that same time one county away in Aton Water, Ohio on April 5th 1990, Earnhardt and Korahartig were shot to death in their home with a 25 caliber gun. The sheriff's office immediately had several leaves including Tyrone and his friends but after ballistics testing showed that Tyrone's 25 caliber gun was not a match to the murder weapon and with no other physical evidence or eyewitness accounts Tyrone and his friends were dismissed as suspects. Nevertheless when the investigation failed to nail the other more viable suspects investigators turned back to Tyrone and his friends who were coerced into turning on one another by lies about non-existent evidence and the real threat of the death penalty. His friends Joey D'Alessandro, Butch Walcott and Gary St. Clair agreed to tout the false narrative in which Tyrone and Gary St. Clair murdered the heartings. Testimony, they all later recanted. However, without knowledge of the much more likely suspects and only presented with the coerced false testimonies, the jury sent Tyrone to death row from where he and the Ohio Innocence Project continued to fight to clear his name to this very day. This is Ronpo Conviction. Welcome back to Ronpo Conviction. This is a hard one even for me because this is one of the most twisted and tangled nonsensical and I'm going to say evil. Ronpo Conviction is that I know of and of course I'm referring to the case of Tyrone. Noling Tyrone has been on death row in Ohio for over 30 years where he remains to this day and with us today to talk about the case is a man who knows it like the back of his hand Brian how Brian is an attorney with the Ohio Innocence Project. So Brian I'm glad you're here but Jesus this is going to be a tough one. Thanks Jason and Tyrone I'm so glad you're here with us today even though I'm so very sorry because of the reason why you're here and even more so because of where you are. Thank you. So Tyrone let's start by going back to before everything that's happened. What was your life like growing up? I grew up in a small town outside of Canton, Ohio to start county called Alliance. I grew up in a one parent home with four other siblings and my childhood was like any other childhood. out, sport, went to school. As I got older, I got a little trouble. But for the most part, life at home was pretty good. It turned 18 and pretty much all myself on my own just hanging out with a group of friends that I had grew up with. And the group of friends that you mentioned here, you're talking about Johnny, Transdapher, Gary St. Clair, Joseph Dallessandra, and Bush Walkide and the latter three all play apart in this wrongful conviction. Now, you all were staying together in the same house, right? Yeah, I didn't really know Bush Walkide. I grew up with Gary St. Clair and Joey Dallessandra. We lived pretty much in the same neighborhood and knew each other since kindergarten. Gary's stepdad had an accident and the house became vacant. So we all just started congregating there. We were just hanging out. We were doing dumb stuff. You know, pop pizza, chase girls, play it up, lay. And Brian, I want to bring you back in here. So like Tyrone says, he was getting into some trouble, which is what leads to the connection with this crime, right? Sure. I mean, the reason that Tyrone was on the radar of investigators was that there were two burglaries that happened the next county over that Tyrone was ultimately arrested for impede guilty to. And those robberies were what made him a target in the heart of murder investigation to begin with. Right. Tyrone and the other young men were involved in some burglaries. And in one, he did have a gun that they got from another robbery and the gun went off accidentally and shot directly into the floor. But Tyrone made sure that no one was hurt before running away. I mean, this is not a guy who was out to hurt anyone. He was definitely doing some very dumb things, but not a violent guy. And he was arrested for those robberies, played guilty, and ended up serving time in prison. And that leads us up to this crime, which happens faithfully around the same time. I'm talking about April 5, 1990, which is when Bernhard and Korahartig, both 81 years old, were shot to death in their own home from the look of things they had been doing some spring cleaning and they were shot while sitting at their dining room table. This is an at Water Ohio, which is a rural town in Portage County. And if you don't know at Water Ohio, it's almost a stretch to call it town. The people who live within a square mile of this, you could count on your hands. So let me set the stage Saturday, April 7, 1990 at 615 PM. Chief Detective Dwayne Kayley was notified by this batch of Kathy Rubino that Jim Rubino had called and reported that there were two people laying on the kitchen floor of the neighbor's house. Jim's mother, who had lived next door to the heartings for 30 years, asked him to go check on them when she noticed their garage had been open with the lawnmower outside for almost three days. There was no answer when he knocked on the door and their car was in the garage he looked inside and saw the heartings laying on the kitchen floor. Now, 10 25 caliber shell cases were found on the floor of the hearted home, papers from the living room desk were scattered around the room. Dresser drawers and jewelry boxes were open and had been rifled through. At this point, Detective Kayley reported that they didn't seem to be any size of struggle from the victims. Mr. Hardick's wallet was in his pocket and the money was still inside. There was no forced entry found in the house and it seemed as if there had been at least one other person sitting at the kitchen table. You want to take it from here because this gets weirder and weirder. Sure. So it's not a usual occurrence in at Water Oio to have a double murder, especially 80 plus year old victims. And so the Sheriff's Department began investigating one of the first leads that they had and this is even as they are processing the scene. They get a call from a roller rink, maybe a couple of miles away and there is a person there saying that he lost a 25 caliber pistol there on Friday night. He was looking for it, trying to see if anyone had turned it in. He was worried that some kids were going to find it. And the person is a man named Dennis Fansteinberg who lived in the area. Police investigate that, but while they're doing that, leads are sort of pouring in, right? This is a big deal in the county. It's a big deal in the city. One of the tips they get, again, almost right away, is from a high school student named Nathan Chesley. And he says that my foster mother told me that he was the person who I killed the Hardigs. And so police are investigating that lead as well. Okay. So right off the bat, they have some pretty strong leads here, right? So what's going on with the first guy, Dennis Fansteinberg? They go talk to him. He says, well, yes, I did have a 25. I don't know where it went. It was the out of my car or something like that around the time of the murders. He said he had found it. So the police check the pistol to the ballistics of the rounds recovered from the scene and it's not a match. And so at that point the investigation in Tevans teamberg sort of fades away. In the meantime, a police have followed up on Nathan Jezzlies' tip. They go to his house, which is a woman who had fostered a lot of sort of troubled teens in the area. It's less than mile and a half from the scene. And you remember there's not a lot of people who live as close as Nathan Jezzlies did to the victims in this case. And so the police ask whether there's a foster brother around who they can interview and they're told there's a foster brother. He's only 14 years old and they eliminate this foster brother pretty quickly. In the meantime, they also get a tip from the neighboring county, start county. Start county has been investigating a series of break-ins where group of teenagers has been going to various houses saying my car broke down and I'd like to use your telephone. When they're led inside the house, they then produce a shotgun and it turns out to be a fake 38 caliber revolver and they take various valuables, VCRs, jewelry, things like that. And that turns out to be tyronellling and his co-definance. So tyrone is arrested with his co-definance and they find a 25 caliber gun. So now it's very interesting to the porch county authorities. They test that one for ballistics and it turns out that it does not match the one that was used in the crime. I mean, there's no getting around that. So at this point, the sheriff knows that these guys tyrone and his friends are not involved in the murders. So at that point, the investigation sort of stalls out for about a year. The detectives are facing pressure. They come up with another lead. This time they talk to the heart eggs doctor, Dr. Canone. The week before the bodies were found, Mr. Heartig told Dr. Canone that he had lent $10,000 to an insurance salesman, that the insurance salesman had failed to pay when the loan had come due on April 1st. That something fishy was going on with this loan and with the insurance salesman explanation for why you're refused to pay. And as soon as he got off the phone with Dr. Canone, he was going to go sort this out with the insurance salesman. The police start to look at insurance salesman that the heart eggs dealt with and they find a man named Lewis Lehman. Lewis Lehman denies having taken out a loan, but he was the insurance salesman for the heart eggs. And what's more, he had a 25 caliber pistol as well. Unlike the other two pistols that the police have compared, they're able to look up the make and model and see that the pistol Lehman had was consistent with the general rifling characteristics of the rounds that were found in the house. They asked Lehman where his 25 caliber pistol was. He said, "Well, I must have sold it, but I don't remember who bought it. I don't remember when I sold it. And I'm done answering questions from you all." He refused to take a lie detector test and basically stopped talking to detectives. And at that point, the investigation had basically completely stalled out. So this lead with Lehman, I mean, if this was a movie script, you'd say that this is. It was too obvious, right? What I'm trying to wrap my head around here is this sounds like the investigators are just bungling this at every stage. And we haven't even gotten to one of the craziest leads. And that is this guy, Dan Wilson. That's right. Dan Wilson is arrested for a murder, a few counties over in Northern Ohio. Dan had gotten drunk, put a young woman, but he'd met earlier that night in the trunk of his car and set the car on fire. This was very big news. And law enforcement across Northeast Ohio started looking at Dan for basically every unsolved murderer that they had. That included the Portish County Sheriff's Department. When they did that, they discovered something about Dan Wilson that they'd missed earlier. And that is that he was a foster brother of Nathan Chesley, the very kid who came to them the day after the murder and said, "My foster brother confessed to that." When the detectives followed up on that, they never interviewed Nathan Chesley and eliminated the wrong foster brother. They never connected the dots to Dan Wilson. They never bothered to interview Nathan Chesley. And so Dan Wilson, who lived within a mile of the house and who police now believe is a serial killer, was known to them almost immediately after the murder and they let it slip through their fingers. He went on to kill another woman. This podcast is brought to you by Ohio Justice and Policy Center, a nonprofit law firm that seeks justice for people directly impacted by Ohio's criminal legal system. OJPC provides free legal services to currently and formally incarcerated people. Through its Beyond Guild project, OJPC works to free over-punished people who have rehabilitated themselves. OJPC's second chance clinics help individuals with criminal records remove barriers to employment and housing. OJPC's Human Rights and Prison Project represents people who face denial of medical care. In its 25-year history, OJPC has worked at the policy level and won numerous victories in Ohio, including ending due little life without parole and exempting seriously mentally ill people from the death penalty. To learn more about Ohio Justice and Policy Center and how you can support its mission, visit ojpc.org. That's ohiojpc.org. Ohio Justice and Policy Center. We don't write people off. You know, at the very least, I think it must have been embarrassing to the office that they had this tip within days of the murder and they didn't realize their mistake until Dan Wilson had committed another very high-profile murder. Right at the same time that that's happening, someone gets called from a woman named Marlene Vansteinberg. She is, I believe, the aunt of Dennis Vansteinberg, again, who was the very first person who they'd looked at and who they eliminated after he turned in his weapon. Well, Marlene says that in those first days of the investigation, Dennis's father had come over to their house and asked his brother, who was Marlene's husband, if he could borrow his 25 caliber pistol for a few weeks. And when Richard Vansteinberg asked why do you need my 25, the response was, well, Dennis had to get rid of his because he was in some sort of trouble with the police and he needed a different one to give the police. And so they ultimately gave it to him and that was the weapon that was turned into the police and eliminated. What's more, Marlene says that she called the police to tell them this during that original investigation. So the police should have been on notice that Dennis Vansteinberg is turning in the wrong gun for comparison purposes and they still been eliminated. Vansteinberg is a suspect. So those two things are happening right back to back. Dan Wilson comes to light and it comes to light that they basically wasted a list of comparison on what they should have known was the wrong gun for Dennis Vansteinberg. So we have these incredibly powerful leads that should have led them not towards but away from those four boys because there's no connection between these and the various characters and the four kids. What happens next? So that is when the Porridge County prosecuting attorney's office takes over the investigation and they assign their own investigator to the case. A man named Ron Craig. Yes, Ron Craig. Let's not skip over this character. From my understanding, he was known for his extremely aggressive interrogation techniques for playing fast and loose with the rules in order to get results that he wanted. That's right. Ron Craig was a person who the prosecuting attorney's office turned to who could crack this case open through aggressive interrogation get results. That is what he was known for at that time. If you look at where the investigation was when they took it over, Dan Wilson at that time was under indictment for murder. You could not interview him without an attorney. Lewis Lehman at that point was not cooperating. He had gotten an attorney as well. Maybe the most logical place for Ron Craig to go was back to these other four kids who had also been eliminated through ballistics and try to see what he could do in terms of interrogating them. And so he started with Butch Walcott who was 16 years old at the time. Yeah, and this part, it gets more and more disturbing because they took these four young kids and with the very real threat of the death penalty, they were able to scare these kids and brow beat them into saying things that they knew weren't true because they weren't there and they didn't know anything. And basically as in other false confession cases or false eyewitness cases that we've seen over and over again, they were fed the information by the police and then they were given basically a Sophie's choice either you lie and implicate your friends. or we are going to send you to death row, right? Am I missing that sign? - No, and I mean, for Butch, if you read the series of interrogations and statements that he makes, at least my impression is that he was terrified and it's clear as he's just trying to do his best. He continues to insist he wasn't there. He had nothing to do with this. So he tells them everything they wanna know about the two robberies that happened in Stark County, but he says we never went to Fortage County. We never went out to Atwater. He doesn't know where it is, and that's not an answer that Ron Craig is willing to accept. So what they do is they send him to a child psychologist who then puts Butch the 16 year old kid under hypnosis in order to recover what they allege are repressed memories of the murder. And so under hypnosis, they would ask things like when did the murder take place? And Butch would say, well, it was not quite dark, but it was not quite light. I don't know, maybe somewhere in between, I just don't remember. And he would give answers like that to every question. And even these psychologists at the time said if we keep this up, he's just going to say false things to try and make the investigators happy because he's so terrified, but it didn't stop it. - Right, and I wanna also mention that this detective Ron Craig made sure to separate Butch from his father. This detective pressured young Butch Walcott relentlessly lying directly to the kid. - That's right. - But hard evidence implicating him, including a witness and DNA matches, right? So, you know, you can imagine what's going on in this poor kid's brain, where it's just getting completely scrambled. He's just given these answers that don't make any sense. And let us not forget that the tape recorder was only turned on when Walcott finally made statements that had been fed to him that were consistent with what they wanted to hear, right? That was when he implicated the subject of our show today, Tyrone Nolling. And then Craig turned to one of the other kids, the Alessandro, who said he knew nothing about the murders, but his own attorney convinced him and his family that he should plea bargain to avoid the electric chair. - That's right. Yeah, I mean, once they can get Butch Walcott to come up with this story, the rest sort of fall in line. At that point, they don't need to go any further of Tyrone's the main target, and he's indicted for aggravated murder with capital specifications. - Okay, in addition to the other guy, St. Clair pled guilty to the hearted murders as well, right? He had given into pressure from Detective Craig as well as his own attorneys and his family. And he was understandably scared out of his mind about the death penalty. And then Tyrone Nolling is indicted initially for the murders in 1993, but this is when things get even weirder. In June 1993, the court entered a null process, which means that the prosecutor or plaintiffs states that they will no longer pursue the matter. So they dismissed the case. The whole thing should have wrapped up right there. That should have been it. - Well, it's right. And the reason that the case was initially dismissed was that almost as soon as they had made the deals, both Joey Delasandro and Gary St. Clair started taking them back. You know, it's one thing under a lot of pressure, under threats with deals being offered to sort of agree to it in the abstract under that very immediate pressure. But as the court date actually approached, Delasandro recanted, asserted their innocence. We had nothing to do with this. When Gary St. Clair recanted in a prison interview, said we lied, we were pressured, we had nothing to do with this. And at that point, I think the state had no choice but to agree to dismiss the case. - And Tyrone, this all has to be so crazy because you have your friends, these guys, even though most of your life saying things about this crime that you know you weren't a part of, but you're indicted for it. And then they dropped the charges. - You know, when they dropped charges against me, I didn't see it coming. They offered a deal. I took a lie detector test. And it was placed on the prosecutor's desk on that Friday. By Monday, they were rushing me in the back of my courtroom with a judge saying, you need to cop out. I don't want to sentence you to death. And I'm cleaning with them back there. And I'm telling them I didn't do this. And so they sent me back and I'm talking to my dad on the phone and I'm crying and I'm saying, I don't know what to do. And my dad says, did you do this? And I said, no. And he just said, well, then you stick to your guns. And that's what I did. Even though I knew the odds were against me. So the next day I go back into the courtroom and I stand up and the judge says, the prosecutor wants to say something. And he just misses every charge against me. And I can't even explain the feeling at that point. I was happy. I wanted to cry. I wanted to yell. I just wanted to get out of there. I can't even imagine to have them trying to get you to take a deal while they know their case is falling apart. But they're still trying to force you into it with the very real threat of death, of the death penalty. And then to just drop it. It's like you get dizzy from this, right? So what happened next? For three years, almost I didn't hear nothing. And then all of a sudden, the new prosecutor comes in. And now they got Joey back on board. Once he realizes all the time he's about to do on other charges and decides that he's is going to make up some stuff and remembers everything they want him to say. And I'm being charged again. The nightmare happens once again. Brian, what Tyrone is talking about here with the election of the new prosecutor in Portage County and Joey DeLasandro coming back on, what's going on there? Well, Joey at that point had been serving time on unrelated charge and was sort of unhappy with his circumstances and his sentence. He reached back out and explored the option of what would happen if he did go back on his recantation and agreed to cooperate, which he ultimately agreed to do. That is what caused the state to re-indite Tyrone knowing. And now with both Butch and Joey DeLasandro, they were ready to re-prosicute the case. So Tyrone Straub begins in January of 1996, six years after the crime, right? So Walt Cod, D'Alessandro and St. Clair will call this prosecution witnesses, but the former two boys gave testimonies that were very inconsistent on significant details, but they nevertheless supported the state's narrative. They said that after the Second robbery in their alliance, Ohio neighborhood, all four boys allegedly drove to Atwater where Tyrone allegedly chose the house to rob. Once they were at the Harding House, D'Alessandro or Walt Cod said they waited in the car while no-ling and St. Clair allegedly went to the front door. Sometime later, according to Walt Cod and D'Alessandro, no-ling and St. Clair came running from the Harding House when got back into the car. D'Alessandro testified that he allegedly smelled smoke coming from Nolan's gun and that Walt Cod said he saw the gun smoking. They also said that no-ling confessed to them. So Tyrone, you're a trial and you see your friends, they're telling these crazy lies. Can you take us back to that moment? It was unbelievable. I've known these guys for all my life and for them just to disregard my life and just to sit up there. They couldn't even look me in the face. They just kept their eyes on the prosecutor and I wanted to get up and scream. I wanted to ask, why are you doing this? And so D'Alessandro and Walt Cod are saying these things, but St. Clair decides not to lie for the state anymore. He recanted his statement before trial and again, courageously did it again on the stand. He denied going to at-water and committing the murders and then he was declared a hostile witness. And get this, the state read the entirety of his prior statement to the jury, which when I was reading about this case, I was like, how can that, even for me, that seems beyond the pale? So Brian, what did the defense attorneys say? I mean, what about the other suspects? Well, all of these plausible and I think likely alternate suspects who the police had originally investigated and who the police hadn't really excluded. None of those names came up during Tyrone's original trial and it's plausible to believe that it's because that information wasn't turned over to the defense of the time of trial. There was only one theory ever presented to the jury about who committed the crime and there were problems with that theory. There were holes in that theory. You remember the 25 caliber gun that Tyrone and his friends had taken in the prior robbery was still excluded. It was not the murder weapon. So they just had to come up with another story about how they must have had a second 25 caliber gun and they must have picked it up somewhere and then they got rid of it somewhere. And there were things about this that didn't make sense, but I think the community was still really hurt and outraged by this murder and they were only really given one theory as to what happened and despite the problems in that theory, he was convicted. So Tyrone, when the jury went out to deliberate, did you have any hope at all that things were going to go with your favor? I always stayed optimistic even though I knew the cards were stacked against me and I kind of remember when they came and got me from the county jail, they was taking me up the steps and they were lined up with deputy sheriff's all the way up and then never happened before. So my heart just sank at that point. And I remember being in the court room and the jury coming in and one of the young ladies that was a juror she sat down and she looked at me started crying. I knew it was over then. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite, on humor me with Robert Smigel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and Headwriters Streeters Side L, helped an acapella band with their Between Songs banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen Kingdom on Earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman had a pulse Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. For our reason, Lamborghini's private jets meeting the president of Turkey on Michelle McFee and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levan, this went to a billion dollar fraud. There were two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know is somebody coming after me. Jacob told Levan, "You're ruining my life." Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Listen to superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I was scared to death. I'm about to go to someplace that they say is the worst or the worst. Your sentence to death, your sentence to death. People that have committed painiest crimes. I'm still a young man. I don't know what to expect and I have no choice because they're going to take me regardless. So you have a good team of attorneys filing post-conviction motions but they were all denied. It's important to mention here that all of the prosecution's witnesses, all of them, Walcott, Dallas, Andrew and St. Clair, every single one of them has since recanted their testimonies. Right? Then in 2006, The Ohio Innocious Project took on your case. Can you tell us how that came about? Well, my investigator, Vicky Buck Walter, was hired on and she stayed with me after my conviction because she could not believe what happened. She helped me contact people right letters and we contacted the Innocious Project. It was kind of weird because Mark Gotti showed up with a couple of students and I thought I was just going there for a tourney of his and I told him I thought he had the wrong room and then he proceeded to tell me who he was and I just sat down and I felt a weight off my shoulders defined and he finally found that someone is going to help me. I have a lot of respect and gratitude for them. And those ensuing 15 years bringing us right up to the present day, they found a ton of stuff that made it seem like the doors of the prison should have sprung open by now and you should have walked free right out into the sunshine. But of course, we know that that's not how the Justice System works in Ohio or unfortunately in the rest of our country. So Brian, can you tell us what the Ohio Innocious Project has been doing to fight this case? Originally the Ohio Innocious Project was representing Tyrone just for the purposes of trying to get DNA testing. There are a few things that we know 100% were last touched by the person who committed the crime and that is the 10 shell casings that were found at the scene and the ring boxes and other items that the perpetrator had rifled through after the crime or during the crime. DNA technology today is sensitive enough to develop profile from even just a few human cells. And so the hope was that if we were able to conduct DNA testing on those items that you would develop a clear profile and if that profile does not match Tyrone knowing or any one of his co-definance, that's going to be very, very strong evidence of his innocence. Unfortunately, we're not able to convince a court to allow us to conduct that DNA testing. And so to this day, that evidence has not been tested. In the meantime, Tyrone's other attorneys had filed a motion for a trial based on very specific pieces of evidence that were uncovered at the end of the original investigation by the Sheriff's Department. Specifically, first of all, the Nathan Chesley tip that was uncovered in Tyrone's co-definance files. Secondly, the statement by Marlene Van Steenberg that the gun that had been eliminated from Dennis Van Steenberg was not the actual gun that he had on the night that the murder may have taken place. And finally, it had been known at the time that police had excluded Tyrone and his friends from the cigarette butt using DNA testing. But they had been concerned enough about Dan Wilson as a suspect that they had tested Dan Wilson against that cigarette butt. And he was not able to be excluded using prior primitive technology. That was not turned over. We believe to the defense at the time of the original trial either. Now here today, we are still waiting for an opportunity to fully examine the prosecutor's files. It's a fully examined Sheriff's files to try to see what, if anything, was in these files that was subject to disclosure back at the original trial in 1995, 1996. Since we last spoke Brian Howell in the Ohioan Mrs. Project had been fighting Tyrone's case by trying to prove that compelling leads and evidence had been concealed from the defense in trial. Specifically, the insurance salesman Leeman, the Nathan Chesley tip, Marlene Van Steenberg, and Dennis Van Steenberg's actual gun. And the fact that primitive DNA testing had excluded Tyrone and his friends from the cigarette butt. Yet, an alternative suspect, Dan Wilson, was not excluded by its serology. All of this can be cleared up by access to the state's file in this case. And with the procedural rule from the Ohio Supreme Court, Rule 42, that took effect in 2017, broad access to those files shall be granted in the review of a capital case. And shortly after the original release of this episode, there was an exciting development. Right, so in March of 2022, the 11th District Court of Appeals did order that Tyrone be given access to the state's file. We are today discussing with the state how to move forward on the Rule 42 access. Specifically, there's an issue about the extent to which the defense expert is going to have access to the state's file. So it's taken a year and a half of pushback from the state to decide the conditions of the release of these documents? Yeah, and I think we're really more importantly, these requests were in years ago. And in fact, the original remand order that said the prosecutors file should be turned over. I mean, that was from 2014. It's, I think, frustrating how long the process has taken what he's asking for couldn't be more reasonable. I mean, he's asking for documents at the state says that they've already turned over to him once. All of that being said, I mean, the state has agreed to now cooperate and move forward with, with at least part of the access that was requested and ordered by the 11th District. So I think, you know, we're at a stage now where progress is happening. And maybe the pushback on the progress is telling because if the state had turned over everything at the time of trial, then why bother with the feed dragging here? Meanwhile, he continues to sit on death row for a crime for which DNA testing had excluded him and his friends. They tested the cigarette, but originally at the time of trial and Tyrone and all of his co-defendants were excluded from the cigarette, but they knew at the time that Dan Wilson was a possible contributor at least had a consistent blood type and decided not apparently to seek additional testing with him at the time of trial. And we believe the idea that Dan Wilson was even a possible contributor to this live on the cigarette, but was covered up or at least not disclosed to Tyrone's defense attorneys at the time of trial. How this even went to trial let alone continues is totally beyond me. The only evidence against him were the coerced words of his co-defendants who were fearing for their own lives in the face of the death penalty. And you guessed it, all of those guys have since recanted. While this battle for clarity about this wrongful conviction raises on, we will return now to the episode as it ended in December 2021 with Tyrone still in the same freaking cell as we continue to hope against hope that Brian and the Ohioanessist projects efforts win Tyrone a new trial. If he were to get a fair trial today with all of the evidence that we know in front of a jury, there's no chance that he would be convicted. And to be in a world where this is all sort of continuing to happen, it's continuing to advance and slow motion, I mean, it's surreal. Certainly, our hope is that he is successful in his current post-conviction litigation that we're able to put this evidence finally in front of a jury. and give him a fair day in court. - Hey, men to that. And Tyrone, for our audience listening today, for someone who wants to see you have that fair shot, which I'm sure everyone in our audience does and who wants to help and to get involved with writing this wrong, is there something that you'd like to ask them to do? - I would encourage them to reach out to our governor, to reach out to state and local politicians. I would ask them to be a voice. Somebody out there knows something and they can go to tyroneknowling.com or they can get a hold of the innocent, Cincinnati Innocence Project that they're willing to help or to be a voice because I need a voice. I need that more than anything. - Yeah, we'll definitely have tyroneknowling.com linked in our bio. So please go there and learn what steps you can take to help. And I also want to mention, there's a TV docu series called Death Rose Stories that did a piece on this case last year called The Lost Boy, which shows a very powerful case for the actual innocence of Tyrone. And with that, we turn now to closing arguments. This is the part of our show where I thank you, Tyroneknowling, for just being with us today, sharing your story and also Brian Howe for fighting tirelessly. So again, thank you for doing what you're doing and for being here and sharing this awful story with our audience. And now closing arguments works just like this. I'll kick back in my chair, turn my microphone off, leave my headphones on, close my eyes and just listen to any final thoughts you want to share. So Brian, why don't you go first and we'll save the best for last and that's of course that's you Tyrone. So Brian, closing arguments. - Well, you know, first let me thank you, Jason, for what you all are doing here. As surreal as it sometimes seems that this is still happening, it feels good to know that people care, that people are paying attention. It feels good to know that there are people who care about what's happening in this case and what's happening to Tyrone. Again, our hope is that people understand what's happening, that Tyrone get a fair day in court. And the other thing is that the fact that Tyrone is innocent, but I'm personally 100% convinced of, you know, I'm not familiar with every death row case in the country, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were the strongest case of innocence of anyone currently on death row. That means that there's someone who is responsible for this crime that was never brought to justice. And it means that there could be someone out there right now who knows something that may have, for whatever reason, not wanted to come forward, not wanted to get involved. I really truly hope that that person is out there and that they will reach out and come forward with any information that they might have about the heart and murders. There is a man's life on the line, an innocent man, and if people have information, I truly, truly hope that they'll come forward with it and allow it to be raised and brought before the court. - And now over to you, Tyrone. - Well, I would like to first thank you. And again, I think the most important thing here is a voice. I'm an innocent person on Ohio's death row. And I don't belong here. And I need help. Now's the time. This is difficult. It's difficult cleaning for your life, especially when you haven't been hurt for a long time. So I would just like to thank everybody and to encourage them again to look into my case, to get involved, to be a voice for me and to help me get out of here because I'm innocent. I don't want to be here, so please. - Thank you for listening to "Romple Conviction." I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburn and Kevin Wartus with Research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production was supplied by three time Oscar-nominated composer, J. Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at wrongfulconviction on Facebook at wrongfulconviction.com podcast and on Twitter at wrongconviction as well as at lavaforgood on all three platforms. You can also follow me on both TikTok and Instagram at its Jason Flom. Wrongfulconviction is a production of lavaforgood.com podcast and association with signal company number one. (soft music) - Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite on humor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odin Kirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeters Side L, helped an acapella band with their between songs banter. - We do some retirement homes. - Those people are starving for banter. - Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. - Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented at all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. - Within probably 10 days I put on 10 pounds. - Listen to superhuman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. - Wife is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. 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