#36: Being Brave with Jennifer Marshall

I'm Joel Kuts and this is episode number 36 of The Dark Place, my guest today, Jennifer Marshal. I am so excited you're here for today's show. Jennifer is the co-founder and executive director of a super cool organization called This Is My Brave. Together she and her team put on live storytelling sessions around the country in an effort to provide community and hope for those living with mental illness. It is such a great organization and such a great goal. Jennifer herself lives with the mental illness type 1 bipolar disorder and she joined me recently from her home for a conversation. I'm sitting with Jennifer Marshal. We're on Skype right now. And Jennifer, thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me, Joel. It's so great to talk with you. Yeah, absolutely. So Jen is the founder of This Is My Brave, which we will talk more about later. She blogs about her disorder by polarmomlife.com. And we were kind of just sitting here chatting about sort of the enormity of carrying on these projects on the side of continuing your life and holding together a family and paying for your life. I just kind of want to say off the back, Jen, I'm amazed with what you do and how much that you do for the mental health community. Thank you. I think that it's really special that we get a chance to sit here and just focus on you and just focus on your own story because I know that in most of your life you spend time focusing on other people's stories. And I know that you've obviously talked about your story before, but I think that it's nice whenever we can have a chance to kind of just sit down and just focus on you for a second. Yep. Is this your first podcast or have you done podcast before? I've done a couple other ones throughout the last couple years since starting This Is My Brave because it's always nice to build relationships and be able to reach your fan base too. Yeah. So have something to write, to connect with new audiences, but at the same time just keep providing something for the people that look to you. And it seems like there are a lot of people that look to you for stories and for support. Yeah. Go ahead. I was just going to say, I mean, it feels like a big world when you think about how many of us are talking about mental health issues, but I've noticed over the last couple years when it comes down to it, it is kind of a small community and tight knit. And so I've been a fan of your podcast for a while. Thank you for saying that. I know you had said that you had listened, which means a lot, especially considering that you do a very similar type of work and just to give people context. Tell us for a second what your organization, this is My Brave does. Sure. So this is My Brave is a platform for people to share their stories through creative expressions. So whether that be poetry or original music, personal essay, even comedy, even dance, and we recruit these individuals in different communities and then we put on shows which are typically held in theaters. So it's a neat way for the community to understand what people go through with mental health challenges and to see them express themselves. And for the performers, it really gives them a chance to some of them, they're telling their story for the first time publicly, so that it's like this weight. And I experienced it myself the first time. It's this weight lifted off your shoulders that you can finally talk about all the pieces of you and not just, you know, the pretty, you know, perfect ones that we put out to the world. You can talk about struggles you've gone through. Did you speak at the first show? I did. I speak at the ones that I produce myself. So I've produced the, with my co-founder, the first show in 2014. And then we did subsequent shows in Arlington, Virginia in 2015 and 2016. So I spoke in each of those and the very first piece that I read, I'm still really proud of it. It ended up being longer than I had hoped, but I felt like I felt like I had a lot to get across. But it was about how I kind of related opening up about living with a mental illness to like a teenager who might, you know, be opening up that he's gay for the first time to parents. And, you know, I know they're totally different things, but I think they have some similarities. And in that they're both invisible, you know, things and they're private things about people. But if you, you know, feel that you want to be open about it, you should be able to. And so, yeah, so that was kind of what my piece was about. And I kind of wrapped it up at the end saying that that first show was my mental health pride parade, because I referred to a pride parade I had been to in Key West in my essay. And I got everyone to, you know, the whole cast to stand up because I was the last one to read. And it, I just was so proud. But I'm so proud every time, you know, we have a show and I get to, I get to attend a lot of them. But just to see you're getting to a point that you're doing so many that. Yeah. Imagine attending them is, is difficult at times. You were telling me before we got going that you did, you did won the first year, right? And then for the second year, second year we did six. Six. Okay. Oh, so there's more. There's more than I realize. And so it started in 2014. Yeah. And are you able to say how many you're planning to do this year? Yeah, it's looking like maybe up to 20. We're going to be kind of cutting things off soon because we're finalizing the fall schedule. And then for next year, we are going to have like application deadlines and stuff because it's where we've reached this point where we're getting big. So it's exciting. And we're also just as an organization, as a nonprofit, just going through these growing pains. So it's been exciting. That's the thing. I imagine there's this other side of it that people just don't see and maybe you don't really think about when you're thinking about starting something like this. And you're, I imagine you're focusing on the events and the storytelling, which is the key of it. But I imagine that there's also this kind of back-end business or, you know, business side of it that's overwhelming and takes up a lot of the time. Yeah. There's so much to it. And you know, I got into this not, not exactly knowing that we were going to become a nonprofit organization because we were funded. Actually, we got our start on Kickstarter. So in 2013, I had this idea to do this show. And I can tell you more about how that came about. But I had that idea. I met my co-founder through a mutual friend and she and I launched it. And, you know, we were successfully funded exceeding our goal within 31 days, which was really great. And then that next year, within, you know, eight months, we had become a nonprofit. And then I had to start learning, all right, how do we actually run this thing? Because I didn't know. And I mean, I have a business background, which is very helpful. But, you know, getting books from the library on like, you know, setting up our structure and our board of directors and our budgets. And all that is it's been a learning curve. But luckily, I've got such great people that are working with me that it's been a joy. Yeah. And it seems like everybody who's working with you is dedicated to the cause, to the extent that I imagine, you know, are very understanding of all the work that needs to go into it because they know why you're there. You know, they know why you're doing it in the first place. Yes. And so many of them, you know, a lot of our, you know, team has direct, you know, experience with mental health issues. But there are a number that I work with that don't have a direct link, but have, you know, their friend or family member that has been affected. And that is why it touches them so deeply. And that's why they're so committed to the cause. So we're all touched by it. As you know, and I know that even if you don't have that direct link, like my husband, he's never had any mental health issues. But I mean, I'm his partner. And he has been with me from the time it emerged and, you know, has been my rock and my support. So and he feels the things that you feel, I imagine, to a great extent. He's, yeah, he's really seen everything firsthand. I can even, if you want to delve right in, I can kind of talk about when it first happens. Yeah. And before we do that, I want to get a little context in terms of what it was, what it was like for you growing up. And I don't say this in a sort of, in a psychotherapy sort of way. But you were diagnosed when you were 26, is that right? Yeah. Had mental illness been something that had pervaded your life either directly or into directly before that. Not at all. I was hit out of nowhere and prior to that, I didn't know anyone who had gone through mental health issues, I was so ignorant to it, everything about it. So it was a complete shock and we were thrown into this world that we knew nothing about and had to totally immerse ourselves in reading about the condition and reading about different conditions because at first when I was diagnosed, we didn't know they weren't certain exactly what it was. So we were looking into different things, but growing up, I had such an idyllic childhood. I mean, I mean, I come from privilege, I was brought up in a small town, I grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Oh, yeah. So from Berks County, I saw that. This won't mean anything to people who are with us, but those are, we would go to Hershey Park, Hershey, Pennsylvania as in Hershey chocolate for people who aren't making the connection. We would go every summer growing up to the, to the, to the, they've a little amusement park. They say little. It's pretty big now. Oh, it's huge. It's grown over the years. Tickets are like, tickets to Disney now, and that's kind of nuts. I don't really used to be, I used to be affordable, but anyway, not important. Back then, yeah. I mean, we used to, as kids, I mean, I went to Hershey High School and, you know, so we used to get season passes as kids and we were like park rats. We would just, you know, hang out at the park all summer. But so yeah, growing up, I just, I have a brother who's 11 months younger. So we had a lot of the same friends and would, I mean, I, I swam in high school, I was never very good. I was, I was very average, I was a very average student and, um, but, and I did dance classes and stuff growing up, but I mean, I just had a very basic, you know, non that, not that exciting childhood, but I had, I did have a lot of great friends growing up. So that I'm still friends with to this day, which is really great. Especially when, when you first, I will say though, Jill, I have to, um, interrupt because this is probably important growing up, looking back now, not in a cycle of analytic way. But looking back, um, maybe somebody else will be doing that as they listen. Yeah. Maybe. We'll be analyzing. Well, um, you know, I did, like I said, I was very average. So I do remember as I grew up, uh, and watching my friends like excel at whether it be dance or sports or, um, you know, academics, I always had this, I had this admiration and probably a little bit of jealousy. Uh, but I don't know. It just, um, felt like I never, at that time of my life, felt like I hadn't found anything I was significantly good at. Okay. So, but that would, you know, later, I would find something. So which kind of takes us to the next step, but. When did you first think to yourself what I'm feeling right now is not normal? When did, when did something start to change? Well, so after college, college was pretty uneventful to, um, I played water polo in college. That's a little fun fact about me, um, and met some of my best best friends playing polo. Uh, it was just a club sport, but it was really where I met my lifelong friends too. And, um, just, you know, studied marketing, graduated, and then fell into this job where I was a recruiter and I was working for a staffing agency. So, you know, companies would come to us and say, "I need a marketing manager or I need a copywriter for a freelance project." And so I was filling these jobs and I started out having no knowledge of the industry and I was kind of groomed by one of the owners of a company and I worked my way up from being the rookie to over four years being the highest paid recruiter in the company and, you know, just, so I had found this niche, this thing that I was like actually really good at. And so that was an exciting time in my life and it was also, um, my husband and I, we had met in college and dated all through college and then ended up getting engaged and got married. So like, life was like, it couldn't have been better, you know, I thought, like, wow, everything is going so great. We were, um, we were building our first home, like a single family home. And because we were living in a beautiful townhouse but we were making great money both of us. So we did that. You know, kids weren't even on my mind at this point, but, um, because my career was going really well, but we knew that it would come eventually. But then all of a sudden, I had this week where, like you asked, you know, how did I know something was happening? I couldn't sleep for a whole week and, um, my husband was away on a business trip and this whole week I, every night would work until like 11 o'clock and then, um, and then couldn't fall asleep. Was that typical for you? No. No. No, it wasn't at that point. I mean, I worked fairly regular hours, but as my career started to take off, I did start to work longer and longer hours, but I didn't recognize it as anything as being unhealthy or anything. I was kind of just like, this is how, you know, work goes. You just get busier and busier and you work more and you make more money. But had you adjusted to the idea that that was just the way things would always be? I don't know. I think, I mean, trying to think back. I think at the, at the end, when my illness emerged, I finally had reached kind of almost a breaking point. Um, I mean, I remember the goals were set out, so I got sick. But on this, my, that week of insomnia where I couldn't sleep, um, happened the first week of December in '05, but right before that, they had set out the goals for the next year and my goals were like, whoa, and, you know, I think to me, it was kind of like, if I don't hurry up and keep working and working, I'm never going to hit these goals. Um, but yeah, I don't think I ever thought, wow, this is unhealthy or I need to be healthy. To make some adjustments, it was just natural. I want to acknowledge for a second because that, I'm not exactly familiar with that sort of pay structure, but as I hear it, it sounds like what you're saying is that the better you did, you were always expected to top that. So the, the more and more jobs that you got for people, you would be expected to get an incremental amount more. Is that correct? Yeah, so it was a sales job, so you had a base salary and then you also had a commission structure. So as you, um, you know, fill jobs, your numbers would go up and up. And so I was under the mindset of, well, if I keep working more, I'll keep making more money. And it was, you know, a very unhealthy way to think looking back, but it just seems like from a, from a company structure point of view, it just seems like a recipe for, true, you know, difficulty on, on behalf of the employees. Yeah. And I think as a company, I think they were very, you know, they were very young too. And so they probably were learning as they went along. And I was, like I said, definitely one of the, I was the first to be paid at that level. So I think that probably after I ended up having to leave that, they probably said different things in place. So when you were having those, uh, those long nights where you couldn't sleep, what were you thinking about as you would lay up in bed? It was just pretty unreal. I mean, I would just lay there praying that I could fall asleep. I mean, it was, I, did you understand why you, why you couldn't? No. And again, it was being so young. I mean, I was only 26 at the time. And so I didn't, I didn't know that these could be, you know, symptoms. And it was, it was the racing thoughts like how, you know, running through all the things I had to do the next day. And um, it just, it couldn't, it couldn't shut down. And then, and then it was trying to pray myself to sleep, like God, please just let me go to sleep, just let me fall asleep. And so I would eventually fall asleep, but really only get like three hours of sleep before I was up again at six, six thirty. And then I'd get into work and, and it would start all over again. And this went on for five days straight. And then my husband got home on Friday and he, he knew right away that something was wrong with me. But again, him having no knowledge of any kind of mental health issues at all, he didn't know what to do. So he just knew I wasn't myself. What happened that next week? Well so it wasn't even until then. So the next day was Saturday. And he tried to get me to calm down. So I was like, you know, just so excitable, so revved up even though I had- Even though you had slept fifteen hours. Right, right. Over the course of the week. It was like I didn't need sleep. It was like I was just running on caffeine but I really hadn't even had all that much caffeine. So I was just so excited and had- the other thing that was weird was that I had all these thoughts about the world and the universe and like it's coming together. And I know the- I know the secret or whatever. And so, you know, saying these things, he's like, alright, you know, and he's trying to call me down and get me to sleep and I slept better when he got home but still not enough. Because you can't really calm someone down who's man like- I mean, there's- at that point- But I could see how you would think that you could- Right. In that moment. Sure. I mean- Because if it wasn't in illness and if you were just revved up about something, it may be possible. And so of course you're going to try to and of course your partner's going to try to do that. Yeah. And he did and then- but then by Sunday- by Sunday I started having like these weird, it was almost like a mixed up episode, like I went to church and- because I'm right- I was raised Catholic and- I don't- I'm- I am Episcopal now but so at the time I was still going to Catholic church and I went by myself and after the church service I just sat there in the pew and like kind of watched and waited and- and I spoke to the priest. And this isn't something that I normally do, you know. And I said, you know, we're moving because we had been building that house. I said, we're moving and he said, well, I know a good pastor out there, you'll be fine and then get home to Ben and I just tears. I was just like almost like it flipped to depression and it was like tears. And- and he still didn't understand what was going on but then by that afternoon, late afternoon he was like, I can't do anything, I have to call for help and he called our insurance had a nurse advice line and he called that, he called his mom to come over and the nurse was like, from what you're telling me it sounds like she's going through something psychiatric and you can't drive her to the hospital yourself because there's a risk she could pull the wheel and pull you, you know, drive you off the road so you're going to have to call 911. And what's going through your mind? Are you there? Are you witnessing that conversation? Oh gosh, you want to hear what was going, I was nuts, this stuff. Like so when I fall when I kind of fall into Mania, it's anything, well what my experience over the four times I have is that anything that's like in the current events or the current news or whatever, it's like almost like it's stuck in my head when I'm manic then. So there were, there was one thing that was, I must have read something recently I heard on the news that you had to put ICE as a contact in your cell phone, ICE in case of emergency. And if you didn't, you know, who would the police call if they needed someone in emergency. So I was stuck and fixated on that. And so as Ben's calling 911 and he's calling his mom, I was calling, yeah I was calling my parents to say, do you have ICE in your phone? You have to have ICE in your phone and my dad's like, what the heck is going on? Are you taking drugs? What is wrong with you? Where's Ben? You know, and the other thing that was going on was, which I referred to in my TEDx talk, we were into the TV show Lost and had been watching every week and everything. And I had this just strange idea that my brother was secretly the producer of this show Lost and he just hadn't told us. So I call my brother after I get off the phone with my parents, I think I hung up on them, I immediately call Mike and I said, Mike, I know that you're, you know, behind this show, it's incredible what you're doing with it and I'm going on and on and on. And he's like, what is up with you, you know? So and of course, this is, this is while your husband's on the phone with the nurse? Sure, yeah. He's, by that point, he was on the 911 and I'm still, you know, on my phone, he was on the landline, I'm on the cell phone and of course, I'm scaring my parents to death because they're in Florida and we're in Virginia. My brother's also was in Florida, so it's like they can't do anything in that moment. So of course, I think my parents probably got on the phone with Ben's parents because his parents were close. So it was just so chaotic and scary, very scary for him. I mean, for me, I was like euphoric and like, you know, in the moment, in the moment. And then it was, didn't ambulance come? Yes. So an ambulance came, EMTs came into our house. The other weird thing for me that happens with Mania is when people kind of come into the picture of whatever's happening in that moment, I think I recognize them. So these EMTs guys come in, they walk into our townhouse and I'm like, I thought I'd recognize them as these consultants that were working with my company and I'm calling them by name and, you know, of course, they're not. And so they had to strap me to a gurney and put me in an ambulance and I think Ben followed in a car. I mean, the next thing I know I'm waiting and it's weird, I mean, I have very fractured memories from that time but was waiting. We were waiting for a bed to open up at the psych hospital then and we had to wait overnight and at one point I got sick and threw up and then the next, the next time I remember waking up was in the hospital and in the psych hospital and I wake up and Ben sitting next to me holding my hand and I look out the window and it's snowing because it was December. And it hadn't the day before I was just snowing that day and Ben's crying and I'm looking at him and he was holding my left hand and I didn't have my rings on and I said, are we divorced? What's happening? What's going on? I was just so, you know, out of it because they had to knock me out with anti-psychotics to get me to sleep. So my parents flew in and they were there right away and so it was a short stay but that was the start of it all. When you're sitting there in the hospital and you're wondering, you're wondering all these things at first because you're up and you're not really aware of what had happened, was there a moment that it dawned on you, hey, maybe something's really up here or maybe, you know, wait a second, do I have a mental illness? Were you able to put it into those terms? No, not at that point. At that point I was still like in shock of what happened. And looking back, it's kind of like, how could you think that, like, didn't you? But I just was so oblivious to it all and I remember, you know, I was obviously talked to by a social worker and by a psychiatrist in the hospital and they took my full history and, you know, they attributed everything to just not sleeping that week. They said just, you know, they did put me on a prescription at that point for an anti-psychotic and I had to stay on it till I saw an outside psychiatrist. But then the same exact thing happened. I saw that outside psych and he said, you know, I think it was all just because of lack of sleep, get back to your routine, get back to work and it took a few days off and he said, you're going to everything will be fine. So in their mind, the insomnia was a cause of what you were feeling, not a symptom. Yeah, I think so. In retrospect, do you think that was a reasonable conclusion for them to make? Yes. And no, I mean, I think they did the best they could. I mean, I think they took my history and it was, you know, most, I think most people when they have, you know, this bipolar one diagnosis, I think they, it happens a little earlier so it was late for me. So it didn't necessarily line up with the most common cases that they had dealt with. I think so. Okay, when was it that it happened again? So it was only two weeks later. I took, I had taken that whole week off work. I started going to yoga and, you know, and then looking back, I said, well, it must have been that ambience I took, like I, you know, I tried to take ambience to try to sleep and, but it wasn't. It was, you know, an episode and so went back to work and I was so excited to be back at work and I just totally, like, blew the whole thing off and I wasn't thinking like, what am I co-workers thinking of me? I was just like, oh, you know, I had this random hospital stay because I couldn't sleep. It, I didn't think anything of it. And then the holidays. it and so by this point is Christmas and I'm right about to be Christmas and we were flying down the Florida to visit my family and it started happening right before we were supposed to fly and Ben noticed something was going on and he called my dad and my dad talked to me for a little bit and I think they both kind of were like yeah she's kind of saying something funny things so um called it therapist luckily I'd still been seeing a therapist and the therapist said you know my dad said I want to get her down to Florida I want to treat her down here because they hadn't seen it firsthand they only saw me like coming out of it yeah so um what parent wouldn't want to right be there for you know be there to help in in some way yeah yeah so we took a risk I mean Ben was was definitely nervous I know to take me down because he said I just don't know what she's going to do on the plane and the therapist said to him she spoke to me and to him and she said take the medication that you still have and give her you know one or two I forget you know one or two tablets when you get to the gate and she'll be sedated enough to be able to fly and and I was and I remember sitting on the airplane um thinking we were right over behind a wing I think and so there you could see the big like engine part or whatever and I remember thinking I was on like a space shuttle I mean I was so gone and you know we get down to Florida and we land and again the whole current events thing happens and um the thing that was big back then was um Jessica Simpson and her husband she was with Nick Lyshe at that point they were on that one reality show and so I was like when we landed I don't remember that what was that I forget what it was called was it called newlyweds I forget what it was called I remember the two of them though being yeah yeah Jessica Simpson anymore yeah I mean it was back when I like actually read celebrity gossip magazines and so so but I said I thought that she was going to be waiting in the limo for us to drive back I don't know it was so bizarre and um and we landed and we got home and again I just couldn't sleep and it was that was the 23rd of December so 24th as Christmas Eve they kept me at home they were trying to get me to calm down but then by Christmas day it had reached a peak and my parents I mean god bless them they were like so scared and they were looking through because this was like yeah this was oh five so like the internet was definitely you know out and people were using it but it it wasn't like you looked online for that kind of stuff so they were looking in the phone book for a psychiatrist for me yeah they were they called their best friends and they're like you know of course because then also you you're scared to tell people what you're going through and because they didn't even know and so they called their friends and the friends that I have a personal doctor call him and the personal doctor recommended this hospital and they drove me there themselves on Christmas day and I was so far gone that when we signed the paperwork to get me in I signed myself in and was admitted and they left and oh gosh the first night I just I couldn't sleep and I thought I was in a room with another patient and I thought that her face turned into like a monster so I went to the nurse's station and of course Christmas night there was one nurse on on duty and it was a male nurse and he said why have a private room you could have and I said okay great and he put me in an isolation room and it was horrific I you know it was just it was awful I made myself sick I you know I was screaming and banging on the door let me out and it was awful and I was in that hospital for like two two more days and my parents came to visit and just like we can't have you stay here and they were you in that room the entire time no just that first night and then you know the other nights I ended up you know getting through because then you're you're by that point I they probably I don't have crystal clear memories from them but they probably had to dose me up on anti-psychotics to force me to sleep and then once you get back on some kind of medical mom you know medicine or a team I start coming down and I start you know understanding what's happening a little bit and then they got me an appointment with a good psychiatrist out of the hospital and I mean my dad we went to the appointment and I was still manic because they had fully gotten me settled and my dad asked to speak with the psychiatrist before he'd see me and my dad said you're gonna see my daughter but that's not her like she can speak you know pretty intelligently but like this is that's not her personality this is not her and the doctor said well you know let me let me assess her and I let them and my husband go in on the meeting and the doctor did his whole assessment and I'm like laughing at things I think it's just so funny that we're there and you know cracking jokes and it was just and then we're leaving and the doctor said okay you know to my dad I think I can bring your daughter back like at that point he knew that it most likely was bipolar type one and so I was started on a regular anti-psychotic that ended up being what how what I needed at that point and he he used those words yeah he said he called it bipolar type one yeah yeah so he was a one who he was the doctor that diagnosed me with bipolar type one and um and then I I stayed down in Florida for a couple of months and Ben had to go back to like you know take care of our our house and get back to work and and then my job started putting pressure on me to come back and I I all I told them was I'm taking some time off I got to figure out what's going on so they didn't really know they had but they had allowed you to be gone for this time they did well so it was holiday break so I was already scheduled to be off for a week but then I I extended it and I kept um I kept seeing that doctor for follow ups and I kept extending my time and they were at the finally they were like we have clients that aren't being serviced because you're not here and you need to come back or you know we're you're gonna have to resign so looking back I obviously should have probably taken like FMLA or something um they shouldn't I shouldn't have let them force me to resign but we were in a position that I could take time off and um I could rely on my husband salary and I needed to get well I imagine at that point I mean we could you know talk all day about the stigma in in a workplace for for revealing that you had gotten a diagnosis like this um but I imagine at that point it was so so new and and so fresh still that you know trying to apply for some sort of official leave could have just made it all feel too real or or something I mean I imagine that that wasn't probably the first thing on your mind it wasn't I mean really the first thing on my mind was like what the hell is happening to me and yeah why can't I get it together and like I just didn't that it took me a good year to and it may be even longer to realize like hey this is a lifelong condition and I need to figure out what someone have to tell you that or did you kind of come to that conclusion on your own you know I think it was a combination of both um because so at that point I I tried to go back to to work at one point during that early 2006 and I couldn't I couldn't handle the normal everyday pressures of the job so I just was like screw it I'm just going to resign I'm going to get better I'll figure out what to do next so I resigned and it was almost like a little weight off my shoulders like okay but then I fell into a severe depression severe depression depressive episode with with anxiety for a whole year because I was like you know what that was my identity like I don't know who I am anymore if I'm no longer the successful recruiter like that was all that was all I ever was you know and it was really sad um but it had to happen and I'm glad it happened because that experience taught me that were more than just you know one thing um is there something that you wish somebody would have said to you at that time or did anyone put that into into perspective in context for you? No no one did and you know you know from my blogging uh I've gotten emails from people at different times you know in the midst of their struggle and I do often tell them the one thing I wish people would have said which was you know it's okay to take a break and to pause and to figure things out like it'll only make you stronger in the end and I could be that's eventually what I ended up doing I took a year and it was the hardest my life. I'm sure to some people, the idea of taking a year would be unthinkable because especially when you're that age, if you think about taking a year off of work and a year off of all these things that define you, imagine you're thinking how do I, you know, this is the end for me. Oh yeah. I'm not going to get back into this. Yeah, totally. I mean, we used to, like, my husband would drag me to go hang out with friends and stuff and I'd be so terrified that someone would say, so how's work going? And I would like, you know, totally recoil and, um, luckily they didn't, I think, because a lot of our friends kind of had a little knowledge of, well, she's going through something or whatever, but it was always my fear that people would say, like, well, how's work or what's going on? And I mean, the tears were pretty much well up in my eyes because I had nothing, but, um, I had support, which I think is critical for anyone who goes through issues like this. My parents and my husband were like so incredible during that year. My husband mostly, um, because he would just listen and would just hold me if I had to cry. And, um, I actually thought the other night about writing a blog post about this because I feel like his, like, like, just being held by him and like falling asleep in his arms. And of course, I'd cry, but, you know, it just was comforting, you know? And so the power of like that human connection and touching stuff was really, really critical. Um, how did he know? Because that doesn't come natural to everybody responding in that sort of way. Was, was he getting a director or help on how to, to manager was that kind of just his natural response? I think it was just his natural response. I mean, I get that question from people sometimes, like, how did your husband get through all this? And I'm like, well, he should have gone through therapy probably, but, um, he just is very, he's just a warm person and he's loving. And, um, but, but he's also just very, um, laid back and like, you know, it is what it is. And, um, I don't know, he just, he takes things one day at a time. And I think that was what I needed to back then. Yeah, definitely. So he like, because I'd cry and I'd be like, home never getting better. And it would just be like, you know, torrential tears. And he'd say, you know, it's okay. It's going to be okay. It's, you know, we're going to get through this. So and just having that was so important. Yeah, if that makes me feel, you know, if everybody had somebody like that, I imagine a lot of people's cases would be a lot easier or at least manageable. You took a year off. Did things start to get better after having that time away from work? So I did a little bit of work during that time. Like, my dad was like, just find something easy to get you out of the house a little bit. And so I found a, like, an admin assistant position for a marketing VP at some little company. And so I went three days a week. And the other days, I'd hang out with my friends or go to the pool. And so it was a nice, easy time. But, um, it turned out that all during that time, I was seeing my psychiatrist like every week. I was seeing the therapist every other week. And then after they kept trying to try different meds to bring me out of the depression and nothing worked. And then finally, after one med change, I noticed that I was starting to have suicidal thoughts. And I'm like, holy shit, this is so scary. And I said something. Luckily, because I'm sure there are people that just are so scared to even say something. Well, they try, they maybe trust that the doctor will just know what to prescribe. Because I think that some, I mean, some, some illnesses and some, you know, sicknesses that we deal with on a daily basis, there is a more clear prescription for. Yeah. You know, if, if somebody knows that you have a, an ear infection and they prescribe the type of antibiotic that they've prescribed for these thousand other patients, right? Chances are it's going to do the same for you. And maybe not, but, but chances are that it will. And psychiatric medication is not that way. So different. I know. So luckily, I had, I had decent doctors and the doctor, you know, changed something. And it, and oh, I know it was, they, they finally, that was the tipping point that made me go to the med. They had been trying to get me to try. Like, they had been encouraging me to try this. And I don't like to talk about specific meds because everything works differently for everybody. But I finally was like, all right, I'm sick and tired of feeling this way. Like, I don't want to go on anymore. If you think that this is going to be the one, I'll do it. And I did. And the side effects were horrendous at first. But I just, they, I trusted them and they said it's going to take a month or so. We'll get the side effects under control. And then by month three, I started to feel little tiny pieces of my old personality coming back. I mean, Joel, I had lost like every ounce of confidence that I had ever had. Like I felt like we were that year of 2006 looking at like long-term disability for me. We didn't think I would work again. I mean, I just was a shell of my former self. And then when this med started working and I started feeling like little tiny pieces coming back, I was like, wow, this might be working. And so it gave your chance. Do you remember what those moments or those pieces were? Like what were some of the first things that you noticed? Well, the number one thing I noticed right away was, you know, I don't have a specific example, but I remember the, I just felt like, wow, I'm actually like authentically laughing at something, you know? And I'm like, and you know when that's real? Yeah, you can just feel it like inside. And I do remember though, there was a point. So they started me on a pretty high dose of this med. And like I said, the side effects were bad, but it also really, really numbed my emotions. So for that beginning period, like one of my dad's closest friends passed away and suddenly, and we went to the funeral and I like the tears wouldn't come. Like I was very sad, but like I was so numbed because of the medication. Yeah. But but eventually they got it to a level that I remember then that first feeling of happiness come through and and the, you know, the first time you cry authentically and it's like you're really reacting to something emotionally. Like that was when I kind of knew, like, hey, maybe this is, this is what I needed. Yeah, you're yourself back. And you know, hearing that that was the result of the of the medication. What was your, what was your hesitation on taking it in the first place? So this goes back to your question about like did someone explain this as a lifelong thing? So the particular meta was taking had regular blood draws. And I didn't want to deal a hate needles. So I'm like, I hate needles, but I have like a couple of tattoos. So that's ironic. But so I just, you know, I don't know. It's like, I eventually knew that, you know, luckily that this is the methods working for me for now. And like my dad explained it like, Jen, if you had diabetes, you would take insulin, you know, every day or whatever. And so and the other thing my dad said, which I mean this will tip off everyone. I take lithium. I mean, he's like, Jen, it's a salt pill. That's all it is. It's a salt pill. Just what's the big deal? You know, and so my dad was really the one who really was like convinced me to take it. And and it's been a real, you know, life saver for me. I'll take it as long as it works. And there are people that take it for a long, long time, and then it stops working. And you have to go to something else. So that's what I'll do. And I imagine that at this point is if it stops working and you have to go for something else, you're going to be a little more prepared for that process. And because you've been living with it for so long, because at that time, it seems like it was also fresh that you may not have even known that living with it was manageable. There was a there was a world in which you had this diagnosis and you were living a life with joy and success and feeling like yourself. Totally. And you touched on something. It's like, so I didn't get to that point until probably like three years later because I so we had after I found that med that works for me. We had a year and a couple of months of stability in my husband and I were like, "Okay, maybe we can start to think about trying to have a family." And I got pregnant right away and then I miscarried right away and so I attributed that to the medicine. So I said to my psychiatrist, "I want to have a baby and I'm not taking that medicine." And he pretty much was like, "Okay, well, I can't force you, so you're going to do what you're going to do." And I went off of it and got pregnant right away and had a perfect pregnancy, like other than I probably gained a little too much weight, because I eat ice cream every night. I was like, "I'm going to get sick." Perfect pregnancy. Right. I mean, if I'm going to get fast, I'm going to eat ice cream every night. Get really fast. Right. But so I had a great pregnancy and I was so excited about having a baby. And I even had like some significant event in my life that you think would have set off either a mania or depression, because I had a job, like I had a layoff in between. And we had a move. We ended up moving to a house, not that single family home we were building, but a different house that we ended up buying. And I did fine. But so part of me was thinking, like, were they right when they diagnosed you with bipolar or was that just kind of like in my life? Because you were living without the medication. Right. Because at that point I was living without the medicine. I was pregnant. I got pregnant at the end of '07, December. I was pregnant all through '08 until I had my son in September. And he was born healthy. And I thought, oh, this is great. I started breastfeeding. I was like, you know, I'm going to breastfeed because that's the way you're supposed to do it. And you have to. And all my friends did it. And I want to be a good mom and whatever. And I didn't sleep because when you're breastfeeding, you think it's like the most natural thing, but to most women, it doesn't come naturally. And I was up constantly and I couldn't allow myself to go to sleep because I was always concerned about the baby and that's it off a manic episode. And so four weeks postpartum, I had postpartum psychosis and was, and with bipolar, these episodes of psychosis get worse and worse. So by this point, it was the third time it was just off the charts and I was seeing things that weren't there. I was hearing things that weren't there. I was just so, you know, beyond there. And that time, and then the fourth time, I had to be taken involuntarily. So I was taken in handcuffs by police officers. In handcuffs? Why? That's just how our system does it. It's awful and it needs to be fixed. I guess, yeah, why is no, I mean, there's no reason that there's an idea that the same restraint would be used for somebody who's a criminal or somebody who purely needs to be restrained for a safety reason. Right. I'm sure there's cases where they're restraining people who don't necessarily need to be restrained in things, but, you know, that said, there probably are, you know, there are situations where people do need to be restrained, but handcuffs. Yeah. It was really bad. Have such a symbolic meaning in our culture that that? Yeah. For us, it was, for me, the humiliation and was like so hard to deal with both of those times. So, the time when I was, when it was four weeks before the pardon, I was taken during the day. And so, there was a cop car at the end of our driveway, because I woke up that morning completely manic and my husband called his mom and his sister to come help with the baby, then he called 911 and they sent female officers, I think, because it was a postpartum issue, which they were very good with me, but they, that's the protocol is they cuff you and they take you and so broad daylight, I'm taken out of my home in handcuffs to a cop car. So, you know, after I got through that situation, I was in the hospital for nearly a week and I had to stop breastfeeding, so that was traumatic and get back on my medication, but the doctor said, "Oh, you respond beautifully to medication," and so I bounced back fairly quickly, but then coming home and having to deal with, did any of my neighbors seem to just happen? Like, what do they think of me? And I bottled it up inside, because I'm like, "You can't talk about this," like, it's embarrassing and humiliating and shameful. And that just, I mean, it seems like, to me, that seems like an unnecessary complication, because you already have to deal with the shame that you would be feeling in this situation anyway, just because of all of our tropes and society and things, and then in trying to heal you and in trying to save you in this very vulnerable moment, you'd think that there is a better way to approach it that wouldn't just multiply all the shame you're already feeling. Yeah, it was awful. And I felt like I couldn't talk to my friends about it, because actually that time, two of my closest, closest friends came to visit me in the psych hospital. And years later, when I had eventually started blogging, I actually asked one of those friends to write a blog post about it. Maybe you can reference it in your show notes, because I think it's really interesting for folks to read this because she knew that I had bipolar disorder from, you know, my previous episodes, because I told my very close friends, but we didn't talk much about it. I just kind of casually talked to them. And she came to visit me and she wrote this blog post about how, like, I didn't realize how sick you were until I came and saw you in the hospital. And like, wow, this is something like, like, I, you know, she applauded me for like my recovery and for working hard at staying well. And she saw me at my lowest. So. And it sounds like she responded with care and compassion. Mm-hmm, very much. I'm really lucky with my friendships. And she's really special. And I think, I think the thing is that if a lot of people understood, and if there weren't all these obstacles to letting people in in that way, I think that most people who feel that shame likely have friends who would respond with the same amount of compassion, it just doesn't seem like that at the time. Yeah. And it feels like this shameful thing. Yeah. I want to ask about the, and this is kind of just for people who, and for myself included, who don't have a full understanding of postpartum depression. Because you had this ongoing condition leading up to your pregnancy. And I know that postpartum depression is something that will hit people. And it will be the, you know, it'll be a woman's first experience with that sort of feeling. The postpartum depression that you were going through, was it the same as, and I know obviously every individual case is different. But was this uniquely caused by the pregnancy? Or was this, was the pregnancy a catalyst to bringing back the bipolar that you had been experiencing for years? So that's a great question. And I have to clarify too that during my pregnancy having thought, well, maybe all that's behind me, maybe I really don't have bipolar disorder, I was actually aware that women could go through postpartum depression because every, a lot of the magazines these days you read say that's a risk. It's actually the number one complication from pregnancy is having postpartum depression or anxiety. And it's probably under reported, so it's probably clear. Exactly. I think the statistic I know is like one in seven women will experience it. I think it is much higher probably, but so I was aware, oh, well, I might get postpartum depression. My mom actually thinks she had it. She was not formally diagnosed with it, never took medication, but having two babies back to back, she went through a very tough time and thinks she had it. But I was aware of that, but I didn't have postpartum depression at all. I had postpartum psychosis. So when you have bipolar type one, and I know you use that word and I was the one that no, no, no, it's okay. Categorized it the same. No, but you know, I think a lot of people kind of lump it all together. Postpartum psychosis is actually very rare. It's one in 1,000 women a year deal with it. And it's I think much more stigmatized even than postpartum depression, although both carry a stigma still, but because people think of while like Andrea Yates, who drowned her five children, and you know, different stories like that, because infanticide is definitely a complication that can, or a thing that can happen when a woman is going through this. You have these intrusive thoughts, and I luckily didn't have the intrusive thoughts that I wanted to harm my children, but that could have happened if it could have, if it might have gone on longer. But the psychosis is just this losing touch of the reality. It's, you know, like I said, I thought I saw a ghost in the baby's room. thought I heard voices that weren't there. So those hallucinations are part of the psychosis. Postpartum depression could be something where like the woman has the baby blues right after she has the baby because you have all these hormones and everything and then it lingers and it goes on longer and longer and some people don't even you know experience it until the baby's six months old or something and so but you know I was aware that it could happen but I was more aware of the depression side of it but bipolar type one always leans towards more manic episodes. Bipolar type two is when you deal with more depression depress the episodes. So it sounds like in the form that it came on you may you may have thought about it and you may have been aware that something could happen and that you would change how you were feeling but it sounds like I thought it was going to be depression. You couldn't have predicted what it was. Yeah and you know we had seen a psychiatrist right before I had the baby because I was kind of in between psychiatrist my one had moved who I was seeing during the pregnancy and he was very comfortable treating me or like seeing me although I wasn't taking meds just kind of as checkups and everything was fine but then we saw this new one when he left a woman and I remember she and I took Ben with me to the appointment just in case and she said we need to have a plan in case something happens after the baby and I kind of was like okay lady FU you think I'm going to fail or you know I just totally presented her for saying that but she was completely right and we didn't have a plan but luckily we had her card and when it happened Ben called her so and then you know she was a psychiatrist that I saw for many years after after that episode and and you and I want to mention that you have two children now so you must have gotten to a point where you felt that it was okay to have another baby so what happened was after that postpartum psychosis that third hospitalization I again found stability and I was stable for over a year and during that time my husband and I said well maybe we'll just have one more maybe just one more and I said I will stay on the med because I knew that there was this risk again I said but I'm not going to take it during that first trimester because that's when the baby's heart forms and the risk of this particular medication was that it could affect the heart so I said once that heart is formed I'll take it for the rest of the pregnancy I'll take it afterwards I won't breastfeed I'll just bottle feed so we had a plan and I still got sick right when we got the positive pregnancy test I weaned myself off the meds over a couple days and also at those that week didn't sleep because I was so excited we were finally pregnant again and it catapulted me into psychosis and so I was five weeks pregnant with my second my daughter when I was in the hospital again it had to be pumped full of anti-psychotics I had to take medication all during her pregnancy and luckily she was born healthy but it was a completely different experience postpartum with her like I had a plan that I knew I wasn't going to breastfeed I wasn't going to try we still bonded and that it was much easier because my husband could help with the feedings and we had a plan for the nighttime that I could get a solid stretch of six hours of sleep because by that point we knew my triggers were no medicine and lack of sleep so we protected those two things and I like threw myself into being a mom to shoot these two kids and loved every minute of it and I that was kind of when I started blogging because I blogged on just a family blog to keep my parents updated because they were in Florida of the kids little pictures and videos and stuff which eventually led to blogging it out by polar I think and I I want to talk about that more and I also want to acknowledge that I think it's a beautiful thing that you were so dedicated to becoming a mother and starting a family that even knowing what you even after the first time around knowing what you may be going through the second time that you still wanted to do it and now you have these you know two beautiful children and you know it it you didn't let your illness get the best of you and I think that's a a beautiful thing and and for for people to kind of take away that it doesn't mean that it didn't affect you like crazy in the time yeah but here you are today and you got through it yeah I mean and when I and I say got through it I mean you got through those episodes I don't want to imply that it's not a lifelong and ongoing challenge yeah yeah I mean I look back and think like God how do we do it but we just we newly wanted to have more than one and and then even after the second I was like wow I did I did pretty good I could do that again I'll do that one more time but then it was like and what is that about the human psyche oh it's so many people as soon as you're as soon as you're okay just for a little amount of time you you get this sort of cut everybody gets you know it's sort of confidence that you'll feel and it works on both sides when when you feel good it's hard to think that you would ever feel bad again yeah oh I'm I'm so like I'll I'll get through this I'm so strong and it works just the other way to when you're low you can't picture ever oh you may know you may logically know it but in that moment it just doesn't feel real yeah you you can't picture the other side you're so right I think the thing about having a baby is like you go through that whole you know nine ten months and then the babies out and then it's almost like running a marathon like I haven't run a marathon so I don't know but I hear that people run a marathon and then they're like say before they you know finish or like I'm never gonna do that again and then they run it and they're like I'm gonna sign up for another one but with kids it was like we were very lucky to have two very healthy kids that and then I ended up you know getting into writing and then then this is my brave came along and I joke but it's kind of like my third child so you have at least three children and then you have your blog let's let's talk about that for a moment and let's let's let's kind of check in with where you are right now you've been doing the blog since 2011 you've been doing this is my brave since 2014 you've clearly built this community for yourself where you're allowing your story and other people's stories to to reach and affect a lot of people but at the same time I'm sure you have your own life to I mean obviously you have your your own life to manage still how do you how do you maintain that balance and at this point like how do all these pieces fit together for you oh it's a good question I mean it's always it's always a balancing act and nothing's ever in complete balance I mean there are times when everything's going great with with this is my brave but my family I'm neglecting or you know my family and I are having you know a very great time and we're all close and we're all you know doing well and I have to let go some other things it's just it's always a a balancing act and blogging I wish I could do more of I I really want to stay current with that but running this organization has taken the bulk of my time so occasionally I'll hop on and write a blog post but it's not like it used to be I mean I used to blog three times a week at least and I'm lucky which sounds impossible to maintain well it was it was a different world I think to back then because I mean I initially started blogging because I was inspired by so many other bloggers who were sharing their stories and I started reading their blogs and I'm like wait I could do this too I want to write you know I'm ready to open up but I was told in the beginning advised by people close to me not to be open completely just right anonymously and so I did and I still was able to connect with these other bloggers and got to know them and I've gotten to meet some of them at different events and stuff which has been fun but it eventually came to the point where I was recognized by an editor from a major parenting website and she wanted me to write about being a mom and bipolar and I said that's awesome and it was my first paid writing job and that was the moment when I decided I want to be recognized for writing about this and I'm ready to put my name on I'm ready to stand up to stigma and so I did and that was What drove me then to create this is my brave because I had been so fearful that the backlash was going to be People walking away from me or you know not being able to find a job later or not being able to Develop friendships further and stuff like that But the complete opposite happened when my first story went out, you know online and had my family photo and the headline was like What landed mom in a psych ward and all these people from you know everywhere online But also in my local community who didn't know my story like I'd go to church So our kids went to the preschool at our church and I would drop the kids off and then one mom was like wait I saw your article. That's awesome. So it's like I was afraid. It's amazing. Yeah, you're fearful that you're in this community with people And also people find out on the internet. Oh, of course. That's the first time that they've seen yeah It's so weird. I'm sorry, but but I had this outpouring of support and so I'm like If I got that so many other people could get that too and then we created this is my brave That sounds like a real catalyst in a real realization did did that You know aside from these projects that you're working on did that allow you to look at your Own bipolar in a new light and you're in your You're I guess you're your openness about it. I think what it did I think yes It it made me look back over what I had gone through and I think I kind of like did this a little on my own before And I say this actually one of my talks is like I looked back over four hospitalizations over five years Just the struggle to get through all of that the struggle of that year feeling like I Was never gonna work again and I felt worthless and broken and getting through all that and then Trying and then knowing that I would make that pain turn that pain into something positive Was and I still try to remind myself like look at what you got through and I have to I have to do that because I am so far. I mean I say so far. I mean I'm seven years from my last Civilization, so that's not a lifetime. It's seven years but in context of The frequency of the hospitalizations before that it sure is a long time though. I mean Yeah, and I am I am definitely proud of staying healthy, you know, and I I think it's a lot due to the fact that I'm running this organization and that I am committed to taking care of myself for my family and for myself and to be a role model to them Because I mean there are definitely times when it gets overwhelming and I feel like you know How am I gonna get through this but then I remember well you got to ask for help and you have to make time for self-care and like stuff like that and that that makes it better You talk about having in your your family to support Do you do you think about how you would respond if Either of your children down the line would would face these struggles. Yeah, I get that question a lot and back when I first had them I remember at one point I was pregnant with my son like halfway through the pregnancy I'm like what the hell am I doing like what if he has this? What if he comes out and he's got this like I didn't even really at that point effectively Figure out how to manage it even though the pregnancy was going smoothly. I still had that in my past And I'm like what would I do? But the thing is you know that was you know When I from when I first got sick it was 11 years ago over 11 years So it's like there's been so many advancements in medicine these you know over the last decade and even stuff like being able to test your genes to see what medicine your body metabolizes best I mean that wasn't available. It was around when I got sick, but it wasn't really accessible And so and just also knowing that I got through it like I feel like I'm the best person you could guide them through that So of course and I do I I mean minor young I my daughter six and my son's eight But I still look for signs. I mean it can emerge that early and I I'm in a study right now That's an informal study, but where they're collecting information from parents who have bipolar of the kids to see has your child shown any symptoms So I fill out this survey weekly and luckily they haven't shown signs It's not to say that they might someday, but I'm not scared of it anymore. I think that you You touched on something very important when you said that you you kind of know what signs to look for and You know if by chance, you know, this would develop or they would develop some sort of mental illness down the line They seem incredibly fortunate to be your children and You know, it it seems to me like you would be one of the best best possible role models for how you can get through it and also just The fact that you're there and your president and you're completely aware of of what it may look like in early stages You know if only all kids who start developing a mental illness had That sort of support in their home and and people have amazing parents that just may not understand the beginning of What mental illness may look like? You know, I had I spoke out of that at an event this past weekend and there were a lot of parents in the audience and my parents Actually came with me to see me speak and there were a lot of parents in the audience who had children going through issues and One thing that you know came up was That they the parents Have can be the best advocate for the kid. I mean if my parents and my husband weren't Continuously advocating for me that year that I was struggling so badly I could have you know struggled longer and it was the fact that they were encouraging me to get up every week and go to my doctor and They came up with little things like my dad said keep a little notebook and write down your medication your side effects and how you feel You know and obviously that's a simple mood chart, but like I didn't know you know and so coming up with those ideas It's like they're the best ones that can help you through it because sometimes you can't think clearly yourself. So I just feel like even though I might not recognize all the little symptoms if my kids end up having it someday I just I think also being open about it in our family is Equipping them with the knowledge that if they recognize something to speak up and because they'll notice first But then also that I can you know be the best advocate for them on the Organization side with this is my brave where do you See it going and and obviously I say that under the context and I need to clarify that it you know In its current form is an amazing project and when you first told me about it I was drawn to it and I was fortunate enough to be able to come out to a to an event I guess January that was a couple months ago And just just feeling the atmosphere in the room and how everybody in that room was was touched by it I know you must also at the same time think of kind of where what the next steps are and and sort of what you're you're hoping for it Yeah, I mean I think about it all the time and I wish I had a better answer for you We just right now have been taking things one day at a time because we're just so In this point of these growing pains right now where we're getting bigger and we're having to add to our staff And I just want to do it the best way we can that for long-term stability and To be sustainable and so you know who knows I just I feel like Every time I get to talk about this is my brave I get to meet new people and introduce new people to it and that opens new doors To new projects and there's definitely I have a couple big picture projects that I'm working on in the in the background That I hope to see come to fruition someday, but in the meantime I'm just like enjoying the ride and and just getting to experience all these stories and Meet all these incredible people has been just such a honor Well, that's the the beauty of what you're doing and just for being at that at one event and seeing all the people that wanted to come up to you afterwards And you didn't even share your story and the event that I went to But still because people knew that you were the one behind it. They still wanted to talk to you and you You're helping a lot of people, so yeah, but I have to say people tell me that a lot like you must be so proud of like everything You've accomplished and I'm like, but it's not me like yes I had the idea and yes, I was brave to put the idea out there with my co-founder But it was just an idea and like it would be nothing if these people wouldn't come continued to come forward So I'm just so grateful for everyone who's volunteered to share their story and to be a part of this, I feel like it's a movement. I mean, when I first started, I remember feeling like seeing all these other people sharing their stories online and thinking like, we're really starting this wave. Like, and the more of us, I can do it. There is a tangible difference. I feel like now versus a few years ago versus a few years before that. And I, and, you know, I'm, you know, they're doing this podcast and things more aware of the community. And I'm sure that you're more aware of it also. So it's, there is a part that it's kind of hard to tell exactly what it may have been like before that. And there's still, of course, a long ways to go and a lot of regards. But as soon as you start thinking about the way the world is changing because of the internet in so many ways, in terms of mental health and in terms of sharing mental health stories, there's so much positivity that I feel has been able to come out of the way that we've started communicating because there was a, there was a time where before the internet, if you felt something, and you didn't feel like you could talk to it, you know, to your, to your family members, your close friends about it, you may not have had anybody in your life or any stories that you could relate to. And I think that, you know, people can come out to, you know, an event like yours and, you know, and again, you know, alive. And you, you know, kind of, you married the two where it's this life performance event. And I'm sure a lot of people also find out about it through online communities. Well, I was going to say, yeah, all the shows are taped. And we've had two shows that unfortunately, we didn't get on film. But for the most part, every single show is professionally videotaped. And then people can go to YouTube and watch it. And I think that's the beauty of it too. They can watch, they can share individual performances that really touched them and help us spread our message. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a great thing. It's a super great thing. I was so glad you got to see the show in LA. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And I encourage everybody else who is, I imagine on the, the website they can find out about upcoming dates. And, and of course, if they aren't in a city where they can attend, they can see all but two of the, the performances there online. Because this is, you know, you know, fairly casual the way we conduct our conversation, I kind of want to check in with you regarding, is there anything that you want to share with people that you feel that this is a good venue for? Or do you feel like, I mean, I kind of, I think we covered a lot of it. I think I guess the only other thing I want to mention is, which I think a lot of people realize with social media is, you know, we put a lot of, we put our best foot forward on social media. So we put our highlight real out there and I'm, I'm guilty of it too. And so I, I, I don't want people to feel like, oh, you know, she has it all and she's got such a, I mean, I do, I feel like I have a really good life. But I go through periods just like everybody else where I struggle. And so just, I guess people, I want people to be aware of that and to know that, you know, they're not alone in their struggles and that, um, finding a community if, whether it's this is my brave or another online community or a support group in person, they're all just great ways to connect with people that have gone through similar issues. If you were listening to somebody like yourself, but this was, you know, 10 years ago when you were in the, in the midst of your, your strongest episodes, is there anything that somebody could have said to you that would have, in that particular moment, maybe made things just a little bit easier. I think if someone would have said, this isn't going to last forever, that would have helped. Um, and for me, in those moments of my, my deepest darkest struggles, I needed to read those stories. You know, I needed to read about other people who had gone through that same depth of sadness and, you know, trauma when going through these, these manic episodes to know that they eventually found a way out to lead a successful life. Um, so I think, yeah, it won't last forever. Yeah. And you're living proof of that. Well, thank you, Jen. Um, I, you mentioned in your project in, uh, owing it all to the people that get up on stage and, and share their stories and the exact same thing goes for me and with this podcast and it would be nothing if it wasn't for people like you who are willing to comment and share their story. So thank you. It's been a pleasure, Joel. I love that we've gotten to meet in person and to keep, um, building our relationship. Yeah, me too. It's just the beginning. And thank you at home for listening. I promise you this. If you go out to it, this is my brave show. You will not be disappointed. A few months ago, I went to the Los Angeles show and it was one of the most emotionally moving afternoons I could imagine for upcoming dates. Go to this is my brave.org. And if there isn't a show in your area, the performances are available right now on YouTube. Jennifer's on Twitter at bipolar mom life. The website for this show is dark place dot Joel cuts dot com. I'm Joel cuts and you've been listening to the dark place because maybe if we shine light on it, it won't be so dark anymore.