#36 About ZineMap with CJ (english Episode!) – zines.fm

Siehens FM. Ein Podcast über Siehens und die Geschichten zwischen den Seiten. Siehens, Siehens, FM. Die Folge heute ist was superbesonderes und ich war richtig, richtig aufgerückt, denn das Gespräch in der heutigen Episode habe ich komplett auf Englisch geführt. Das hat euch der Titel vielleicht auch schon so ein bisschen verraten. Das war eine Premiere für mich, aber das hier war auch eine Premiere für mein Interview Gast C.J., denn das hier war C.J.s allererste Podcastaufnahme überhaupt. Da habe ich mich natürlich sehr geärt gefühlt. C.J. hat die Sinmap gebaut. Das ist eine intaktive und kollaborative Karte für die globale Sinstzene. Die könnt ihr auf Sinmap.com und auch auf Instagram finden. In dieser Folge sprechen wir darüber, wie C.J. erst mal auf die Idee gekommen ist, wie viel Arbeit in dem Projekt steckt und welche Pläne es für Sinmap in Zukunft noch so gibt, denn die Karte hat gerade erst den ersten Geburtstag gefeiert. Die komplette Folge jetzt ist also auf Englisch, wenn ihr Englisch versteht, dann hört unbedingt rein. Ich würde mich sehr freuen, viel Spaß beim Anhörm und willkommen zu "Everyone Who Usually Doesn't Listen to Sin's FM" weil es in Deutschland ist für euch. Enjoy! C.J., danke so viel für die Leute hier. Danke für die Leute hier. Und es ist auch ein sehr späscher Episode, weil es mein erste Episode in Englisch ist. Ich bin so excited, dass wir heute reden. Ja, sehr excited. Das ist mein erste Episode. Das ist ein paar Tage. Wow! Was ist denn die erste Episode für die Podcast? Und du hast mir gesagt, dass du ein bisschen mit Deutschland zu sprechen kannst? Ja, also ich habe ein paar Sätze vorbereitet, um Sinmap vorzustellen. Also, Sinmap ist eine gemeinsame Karte, auf der man Sinletten findet oder Buchletten und Bibliotheken, wo es Sin gibt oder Sin events zum Beispiel. Sin festivals, Sin fairs, Sin workshops und so weiter. Überall und auf der Welt. Und wenn du eine Ort kennst, der noch nicht auf der Karte ist, kannst du einfach selbst hinzufügen. Und dort kann man auch eigener Sin's hochladen und andere Leute entdecken, die Sin's machen. Das ist alles, was ich auf Deutsch sein kann. Das ist great. Thank you so much for explaining it. Ja, ich habe es ein paar Wochen schon gesehen, weil er zu mir hat gesagt, du bist zu mir zu sehen, du musst alle Sin events zu sehen. Und dann, ein paar Tage, ich glaube, 20 Sätze oder etwas auf deinem Video, und dann auf der Welt zu mir. Ja, ich glaube, das ist das, was wir in Kontakt haben. Ja, ich war extrem impresten, weil ich sah alle Events, die erste Zeit war so impresten, dass es ein paar Sätze von Sin events, like, workshops, ich glaube, sie haben sehr viele Themen. Und dann, du like, die Tage, die Posten, die Eventen und die Details, was dann passiert ist, was wir dann haben. Es ist, wie man es schon vor 4 h umdrehen muss, auf der Webseite zu sehen. Ja, ich bin sehr viel an der Stelle, aber ich glaube, Sin's ist sehr easy zu tun, so es war sehr easy für mich zu tun, zu tun. Du hast schon gesagt, du kreitet, Sin's dir selbst, oder? Ja, ich bin der Developer. Wie war das? Ja, wie war das? So ein bisschen der Origin-Story von Sin's. Ja, bitte. Ja, das war das letzte Mal, so Sin's hat mich sehr leid, um 1 Jahre alt. Ja, ich bin sehr happy, danke. Danke auf der anderen Seite. Ja, danke. Ja, so ein Jahr später, ich war in Bruchland, in New York, mit dem Rekursen, und es ist eine Rehab für die Verbrauchung von der "Burgtags" von "Burgtags" in Big Tech. Wow. Und dann, ich kann nicht sagen. Ja, ich war eigentlich ein der anderen, weil ich nicht einen Single-Linofkode haben, denn ich habe meine Vorbereitung in April 2024 geliebt. Ich habe nicht einen Single-Linofkode für über ein Jahr. Und dann, ich habe eine Koding-Retriebe, eine Residenziehe, wo ich einfach nur auf was mache, was ich enttressen habe. Und dann, das ist, wo ich starte, ein Bildung-Ziehmab, weil ich auch selbst selbst selbst in meinem ersten Film habe. Und ich habe es mir vorhin geschaut, weil es einfach so schön ist, dass du ein wenig komisch auf die Schafe in den Shopp. So, ich war, was mir für Pläse gemacht habe, aber es war extrem hart, um zu finden. Pläse, viele von den Pläten, waren da, da war eine Menge die Informationen, und du konnte nicht finden, Pläten, die mit selbst selbst selbst arbeiten. Das war, wie die Idee startet. Und das war die Pläte, wo ich wirklich in so ein paar Stunden in die Zeit, um einfach eine Prototyp zu gehen und zu tun, wie es beginnt. Und dann, du wirst eine erste Zeit, du programmiert auf die Recreate und dann, was hat sich von das gemacht? So, du putst es online und. Ja, wie warst du das gemacht, um die Zinkombunity? Ja, es war wirklich, ich glaube, ein paar Bonsie Prototyp, wenn ich das erste putte, ich postete es in die Zien-Sub-Reddit. Ich glaube, es ist einfach Zien-Sub-Reddit. Und usually, ich habe viele Issues, oder es ist einfach sehr schwierig für mich zu putten, oder zu publishen, das ist nicht alles. Aber ich war schon, zu posten, um die Zien-Map zu tun. So, du hast es mit der Perfektion und so? Ja, einfach wie alles, ja, wie alles. Aber es war halb schön, weil in der Koating-Retriebe, wir waren, um einfach zu überlegen, um zu überlegen, du in der Perfektion? Ja, sort of. Weil sie mir gesagt haben, weil sie nicht mehr mehr machen, aber sie hat, sie hat die Spiele für die Leute, um ihre halbliche Projekte zu tun. So, ich war, in einem guten Placies, ja, genau, um das premissierende, um sich in einem Version, das wirklich einfach die Prototype, die mir sehr hohe, zu mir, ich war nicht mehr bereit, was ich, ich hätte nicht mehr machen, das ist immer, weil ich im Backhand-Engineer, und ich alle die Website, ich mache, ich denke, wir sind wirklich ög. Das ist ein stereo-Tire. Es ist, ich denke, es ist sehr akkultig. Es ist ein stereo-Tire. Dann ist es einfach akkultig. Ja, ich war immer okay mit dem Falt, nicht reißen oder in der Zeit, was die Ungliehen-Quotes gemacht habe, aber ich war froh, dass ich auf die Rettung postet, und dann die Leute wirklich responded zu den Leuten. In einem Tag, es war ein reales Projekt, in der man sich in der sense, dass die Leute sich logischer bearitern und die Leute sich in der Mepen in den Menschen in die Leute in den Menschen mit dem Falt, und dann ein Ding mit der actualen Data. Ich war es im Moment verwendet, dass es einfach akkultig ist. Es ist einfach, dass es sich in der Einen Seite zu sehen, dass es auf der anderen Seite zu sehen, dass es auf der anderen Seite zu sehen, dass es auf der anderen Seite zu sehen, – Also, das auch immer wieder in der groundwürdige barrelsville wirst du eigentlich selbst openly blowspannen. – Das ist aber hier immer just Redenluft Ethos. – Es ist eine wichtige Musikzelle, wo wir mitbr onlylle Vereine wrestling oben aus resin sind. - Also so vielffee ist so� und bin nicht so k presidency�er. – Ja, coole? I don't know if it has anything to do with the site being primarily in English, although people have started adding events in the local language. I think there's a correlation of some sort. Yeah, I think so too. And today is August 1st, when this episode comes out. And you were very busy in July because obviously it's international Zin month, but you attended several Zin events in July. Yes. Do you want to tell us where you went and what they were? Yeah, happily. So I think the first Zin event that I went to was other world Zin Fair in Sydney. And that is probably the largest Zin Fair in Sydney, because there are so many throughout the year. And in July, especially, there's like one every weekend. That's so cool. I think a lot of places are like that now. This one is still the largest. And it has, I don't want to mess up their history, but I think it's been like running for a couple of years now. And it's run by Glompress, which is a Rizzo graph press in Melbourne. They print comics in Rizzo. And it's four people, I think, that are running this press. And then also that's the core team that's running other worlds. Zin Fair. And how many Zin Maker were there? How many Zin Maker's? Woo. I'd say over a hundred for sure. Oh, I'll say. And then that's really, people would fly to Sydney for it. So I tabled next to someone who flew from Melbourne. And also the core team that runs Glompress, that also runs other worlds. I think they're all based in Melbourne, so they flew in for this. Okay. Yeah, it's a really big Zin event in Australia. So cool. Was it a whole weekend or just one day? This was just one day. I think it ran for maybe five to six hours. And was that your first Zin event where you tabled yourself or did you visit other Zin events before? I'd say this one, the 11th of July was probably my 10th Zin Fair the past year. So I really, my first Zin Fair was last year in September. And then because I've been building Zin Map. And because that's so many 11 since last year. I know. Yeah. Wow. That's how many there has been. And I kind of I travel a lot also. Okay. I made this promise to myself that I would spend as much time and effort getting my workout there as the amount of time and effort that I spent making the work. So that's cool. Almost. So that this is me doing the getting the workout part of the equation. Okay. Are you visiting Zin events only in Australia or are you traveling outside the country as well? I traveled once to Poland and I went to Kraków Zin Fest in December last year. This was my first and only international one. Zin Fair that it's not, yeah, not in Australia. How did you like it? Do you recommend it? Because Poland is not too far away from Germany, but I've never been there. I definitely, you've never been there. It's like a train ride away. Not in Poland at all and not at the Zin event. Yeah. I would definitely recommend it. I would recommend it more if you speak Polish. Okay. I don't. Yeah. But just a variety of Zins there and you can really feel it. Like there's the undergroundness of the Zins scene there. I think a lot of it was like really, really punk and how else can I put it? And the person running it is from Spain. Oh, okay. So it's really interesting how someone from Spain is running this very cultural thing. And Poland, but he's been in Poland for a really long time. And I went because I also have a personal relationship with the country. Or like I had a long and open relationship with the Polish language that I was like trying very hard to learn. Okay. So how many languages do you speak? Because you can speak a bit jabern, you can speak a bit Polish then? Yeah. I used to really love learning languages. So it depends on when you're asking, but I think right now, right now it's pretty comfortable in Spanish and French. I've studied them to a pretty advanced level enough to like work in that language. And then Polish is really just a passion thing. And then Italian was a COVID project. German was a pre-COVID project. Yeah. So a few. So cool. Yeah, a few. That's so amazing. I like language learning so much, but I suck at it. Really, I'm quite okay with English because in Germany you start learning English. I think in third grade. So it's fine. But I used to have a Spanish at school. I learned Swedish for a few years. I had Latin, but Latin is just not useful at all, of course. I'm learning Chinese for over 10 years and I can't speak anything. So yeah, but yeah, I'm hopeless. But I don't give up. I think that's the most important thing. Do you think the Zienes in Poland are different than in Australia? I'm going to quote someone that I met at a Zienfest in Tasmania in Hobart. This was in March. I think and I flew down to Hobart for a Zienfest. The first one that they had in the State Library, in their State Library, and someone said that they've witnessed a pretty big sort of cute suffocation in Zienes, especially maybe Tasmania or Australia lately, where people are making really cute things, which is not necessarily a problem, but it's just an observation that they had. They made a Zien about the cute suffocation of Zienes. Interesting. I think I might have a copy of it from a trade. Yes, that's quite interesting. So away from being a political bra towards being cute and artsy, do you think? I think there's a growing, or really I'm really new to the scene. I'd say I've had a pretty extensive exposure to the Zien scene from making the map, from trying to be useful in the Zien scene, but just from what I've seen, I think, or what I've learned from people that have been making Zienes and going to Zien events for a long time. I feel like they've witnessed a really big overlap in recent years of crowds that are doing art markets, or art books, making very elaborate artsy objects, and the Zien makers that are all about getting ideas out quickly, or the immediacy of transforming an idea to like a handheld object that contains that idea, I think. There's an increasing overlap. You said you are quite new to the Zien scene, and you already told me that your first Zienes was right around the time you went to the retreat, right? Yes. Okay. But did you know about Zienes before that? I did. I did know about Zienes. I think I even went to a Zien workshop in 2022. This was when I was still living in Brooklyn. I used to, I lived there for two years, and I went to maybe it was an LGBT center that had a Zienes workshop, and I went to that workshop, but I was just really impressed by the folds, like they had really elaborate folds, and I was trying to replicate some of those, but I didn't put anything in it. I was just folding paper that entire session. So I did. Just training for the real thing. Yes, definitely. But that was my first exposure to the idea of Zienes, and then fast forward to 2025. I had been making comics for a long time, but a long time hasn't like three years. And then that's a long time in the books. Yeah. I think I was talking to a comics professor who told me that I had enough pages for a mini comic, and who said, I should get my workout that I should print it out and trade it with people and make friends. And I was like, what difference would it make if I were to print it out versus just posting it on Instagram or a substack? I was like, what difference would that make? It made all of the difference. Yeah. And I was just having it as a handheld thing in hell, because I was already thinking about page terms when I made comics. Ah, okay. So it made a lot of sense to see it, the physical thing in the page terms. And I think it's always such a different feeling to see something you did printed out or as a physical medium than just on a screen. I think that's absolutely. Yeah, two different things. Yeah. And then you shared it with friends and people and then you fell in love with Zines. That's how it happened. Yeah. Sort of. I didn't have friends here in Australia. I made friends. I did make friends through Zines because I'm only in Australia because my partner is here. Before this, I was kind of floating in space and my partner has since I was a kid. been an anchor so like I still I come back to Australia this is kind of a base now in a way but prior to this zine community I think I didn't really have any friends I was still kind of just living in this small bubble and then after I printed out my first zine I printed a couple copies and the comics mentor also found a zine fair for me that was happening in a few days so nice I know I know and then I went with the copies that I had of my first mini comic zine and then I traded with people and one shop owner who was tabling at that zine fair offered to stock that comic so that was the first time of my work getting into a shop getting onto a shelf like officially and it felt so good that I wanted to do it more. Yes so nice and now on zine map because on z-map has a lot of different categories where you can put pins on you have the events you have the because right before we recorded I added two more shops oh yeah it's still not approved I did it like 20 minutes ago still not approved still not approved. How dare you yeah no no no but that was the first time I added shops and I was very surprised that you can put so much information on it because you can put tags on how the shops pay you or how the split between the shop and the zine maker is and stuff and I think that is so helpful because I mean I'm not selling my zines really but a lot of questions I get are about how can I put my zines in shops because mostly people don't want to have online shops themselves because I don't know how the situation in Australia is but in Germany it's like horrible to make a shop or be self-employed it's like taxes and all that fun stuff. Yeah if only it were just taxes but it's just like the laws are so complicated and also online shops are a big problem here in in Europe and also especially in Germany yeah so a lot of people are just hesitant to do their own online shop rightfully so because it's so complicated it's just yeah not easy to have an online shop so a lot of people are searching for ways to bring their zines to some shops and I think I don't know anything like zine map so I think it's it's such a great place for people to find shops and also zine events. I also have a website and I always planned to to put a list or something on there with zine events in in Germany but yeah I think you know that you have so many ideas and oh yeah for sure there's never a lack of ideas. Yeah the ideas are not the problem more the time issue yeah so I didn't do it but when I discovered zine map I thought oh great somebody else did it and so much better than I could because I thought I only thought about I don't know a Google sheet with dates and and events in it but zine map is so much better and so much cooler. I'm so glad I'm so glad I'm pretty proud like I do take pride in like designing it in your way that I can't take credit yes I will because I that was really the one thing that I was hoping to do was to get my comic zine into shops yeah and I know that it's a very like a niche thing even for zinesters because a lot of zimakers like they trade they go to events but they don't necessarily where they have like Etsy or they run some web shop but they don't really necessarily work with a physical like bookstore at local shops yeah exactly but this was something that I was really interested in because I want to see my comics next to comics by like my comic heroes that's like a personal goal and it was very very validating to have my comics in the same shop as like re-adtsa to for like gaitalio like my comic heroes so that's it was really what I was trying to do and then seeing how difficult it is to get that information to even to learn what the split is and not not just that like how how does it work how do you approach them do like email them do how do you ask like do they even work with self-publishers like a lot of this I had to find out just go indoor door and ask them if they work with self-publishers or like looking to see if they have a zine shelf or like a independent publishing local kind of setup and then just knowing how much effort it is to maintain like a google sheet and then there's no ownership of that data like anyone can contribute but then it slowly dies if there's no one to look at them updates so exactly yeah so right now by attaching every contribution to a name like it's added by Jenny then you're kind of well you're not like responsible forever but it's my personal responsibility to keep all the events and shops like updated it's definitely a professional yeah it's it's it's it's to thank you it's to credit you but also there's a little bit of shared responsibility work yeah and I think it's also nice to have the community notes so that everyone can just put some some comments on on places or events I think that's a that's a great idea to to gather more information about events and places yeah yeah I think that's probably one of the most valuable aspect of zmap is the community input and my job is to just create a platform to make it possible for people to like contribute that kind of knowledge but that's really what made it like useful I think is what people add in the information their first hand experience working with a shop or going to a library or like even attending an event because you can also like add notes to previous or archived past events so it's available it's like a yeah it's also a good research platform so I don't know if you want to or if you plan to go to an event next year you can look it up how people thought about it this year I like it so much really thank you I'm I'm so glad thanks again for making it yeah it's definitely like I'm still trying to figure out the relationship between me and zmap now that it's like it's on thing like it's it's on it has its own life almost it like has a heartbeat but it feels like a tree that grows in my backyard that has its own life but it's still the first thing I see when I wake up in the morning it's like there for you to like water you can't overlook it yeah a lot of maintenance in the comms newsletters social media trying to get grants trying to like find proper support for it yeah it's been a lot of work do you want to talk more about the work behind zmap so what do you need to do to keep it running for example how many hours do we have as many as we want okay I can yes sure I'd love to I think we're just not for the how much yeah yes now now it's my turn to like dump this information because I do run like a interview series and I talk about people that run events and shops and libraries to like learn all the behind the scenes work that they put into it and as I had it's their interviews yes I'm like when do I talk about the map okay now it's my turn now it's your turn so besides well obviously when people look at it they're going to think that my job is to like click approve on the submissions but actually I do have another moderator now that's also like part of the admin panel who also has admin access who like sees the submissions and flag or approve or do a quick fix on the address for the URL etc because it was a person who was doing a lot of it on existing events on their own and I was like well actually thank you so much for all this work would you like to actually be an admin because they were like sending me I think I did have the feedback thing at the bottom of every page that you can like write to me about and the accuracy and then this person was already doing that on their own so I invited them on the admin side of things but then in addition to this the moderation looking at submissions making sure the addresses are correct making sure the place exists because sometimes people do add a distro that operates out of a physical address but it's not publicly accessible so for that we can't really put on the map you know what then reach out to the person and ask them to maybe add a pin of just themself on the zinstre directory map so people can know that there is a distro run by this person somewhere in like the states for example so there's communication on that front to like a little user education too I don't like to say users but people that use contributors so communication in support just to answer emails and send emails thanking people thanking the contributors who have added something and and asking how they learn about ZMAP and potentially explore ways to collaborate to get the word out more. So outreach in that sense, also outreach to shops. I did one fundraising campaign there recently and wrote to shops on the map to see if they're willing to support the project. So some fundraising outreach efforts and then continuous development is the more things it does, the more likely things can break and not in a chaotic or catastrophic way, but still like when an event goes into the next year, some people would update the listing, for example, like ZMAP, 2025, they just update the listing to say ZMAP, 2026, but then, or ZMAP, so and so 2026 for the second year's edition, but then there's like attendance attached to this listing that said, these people went to this event. So when it goes to the next year, there's gotta be a way for that to be tied to the previous year's listing. So just structural things, data stuff and making sure, checking the backlogs, making sure the bugs get addressed and security stuff 'cause I used to be a back end person. That was kind of what I did for a living, but then it's definitely different when you're doing it sort of professionally, but it's not, you're not getting paid. So like how professional am I acting without like a company but still definitely knowing that a lot of it is currently my responsibility and somehow juggling that has been tricky and like finding support also in addition to shops or like general fundraisers. I'm hoping to start applying to grants. I have done that a few times with no success, unfortunately, so far. And maybe like working with people to frame it better 'cause a lot of grant makers or funding bodies are associated to a location like a city or a state, but then ZMAP is not really, doesn't belong to, and I see the problem, yeah. Yeah, so somehow like frame it so that it makes sense to funding bodies and also be like careful, who's money you're taking, but now that I'm like setting it to some institution, but still hopefully get some steady support to continue working on it. And also like you mentioned, there's multiple location categories. I'm also adding a new one for print shops 'cause it makes sense for people to know where they can fit. It's a great idea. There are many great ideas, just like not enough to. Yeah, the idea is another problem. Like you said, yes, so this is like a fourth category, hopefully. And also working on a way to represent distros because they are important. They're an important part of the ecosystem, and they're doing a lot of work. And they are really hard to put in boxes 'cause the way they work, but hopefully finding a structure to also represent them somehow, doing research on that front. And hopefully also like scoping it so that I know very well what belongs to the map and what doesn't, like what is my job and what isn't. Hopefully that's what I have in mind. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of work. So I really hope that more people add to it, either in form of pins and locations and stuff. But I saw that you also have a, what is it called, coffee? Yeah, I never know what it is. Is it coffee, coffee? Like the eye-knife? I never know. Yeah, yeah, is it comes, does it come from coffee or? Yeah, love, I don't know. Yeah, but I will put it in the show notes, of course, so people can contribute. This word is so hard for me, contribute to it. Wow, sometimes English is still a challenge for me, but it's a perfect, it's fine. Okay, so you said that you plan to do a new category for the map. Can you tell me more what you plan for the second year? Yeah, for the map. Are there other plans? I mean, ideas, we already said there are a lot, but do you plan to make some specific upgrades in the second year of the map? Yes, yes. First of all, acknowledging that there are many ideas and many things that, quote unquote, should be on the map. Like this belongs or like this would be so helpful if it does this or that, and acknowledging that I can't possibly do it all. At once. At once, or without the structural support as well, and acknowledging that and possibly opening up opportunities or like half openings for collaboration, 'cause right now it's really difficult for me to do that. I was telling a friend how like if a person shows up in my door right now and tell me that they are capable of doing anything and they can just give me one hour to work on the map, like there's nothing. I can really tell them to do without having them like touch my laptop, like because everything is right now still like runs out of you. Exactly. Yeah, so and then again, to get help, I kind of have to design for like a container for that help, like what would help in tail? What is it in tail? What is it? What's the scope of that help in, you know, kind of designing this in a way so that people can contribute? Yeah, we're gonna contact you. And also that the help is, how can I phrase that? You get the help without it making you more work than it helps you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I get so counterintuitive sometimes, but it is like sometimes you think, I'll just do it myself because for me to explain what needs to be done to a person and for them to like still have like some feedback and I'll show my appreciation, but also I have to somehow like give my input in a way that doesn't intrude. Well, it's, yes, it can easily become more work for this person who's like trying to get help. So I guess designing that contained form of help is tricky, but something I've been thinking about for the second year and the new location category and one candidate that might very well fit in this theme that we've been talking about, like the help thing is to add multilingual support so that the interface of the site is available in multiple languages, but this because I have worked on this specific feature in multiple companies before becoming a zim person, how is a developer and just having worked on that and knowing it's like a continuous thing. It's not like a one off task because every time you add something new to the site, it will then have to be translated or like there would need to be a fallback of some sort. So me carrying my tech world knowledge from pre AI agents, your experiences and you see where the problems are. Yeah, and then hopefully building a system so that translators can come in and help with the site in running this quote unquote pipeline for multilingual support to exist and be functional and be user friendly, accessible. 'Cause I think that's the most requests I've gotten was about having the site available in Spanish, in German, in Chinese, 'cause if you've tried the browser plug-in translation, it's usually a very abysmal experience. Yeah, that's true. So that's like a big chunk of thing to think about, start thinking about in near-to. So exciting. Yeah. I'm really excited to see how Xenemap, how it continues to grow because I think a lot of people know it by now. Really? Because yes, I was at the Xenemap in Bremen last year. Oh yeah, how did that go? The North of Germany. Yeah, it was really cool because it was two days. And on Saturday, the weather was so nice and the location was very convenient for people to discover. So a lot of not-seen people were coming and. New blood. can always go two ways. Because sometimes people are so curious about Xenemap, and are very happy to get to know them. But sometimes people don't understand Xenemap, at all. And that's always like a 50/50 chance, how it can go. But Bremen is such a beautiful city. I like Bremen so much. And Bremen was also the first town I went to Xenemap. Two or three years ago. And so it will always have a special place in my home. But a lot of people were telling me about Xenemap. "Oh, do you have Xenemap already?" And I was like, "Uh, yeah, actually, yes!" Maybe CJ will be in my podcast in a few days. So, wow. That was very funny. That's so amazing to hear. I wonder how, how is the word getting spread? If you don't know, then how would I know? [LAUGHTER] Yeah, but I think because I have. I mean, that's not obviously not the only reason, but I have a Xen discord in German and a community there. Okay. Zinmap came up there too. So people were sharing the site there too. And yeah, so I think it's because of my discord. Yes, thank you. No, but gratitude. Yeah, or maybe the people discovered also on Instagram more and more. And because you set your active on Reddit a bit. And also you have a Instagram page, but do you use any other social media as a promotion for Zinmap? No, not currently. If at some point I get to work with a social media person, it would be lovely to have it in multiple platforms or like at least as an entry point. Because the goal is always to for people to spend less time on social media in more time on Zinmap hopefully. Yeah, it's a fine line. Yes, to work on. Yeah, yes, absolutely, but I currently only run Instagram that one account and then I run a newsletter which is really just everyone who has an account on ZMAP plus people who wrote down their email at my Zin table whenever I table at an event. I have like a thing to collect emails for ZMAP newsletter. So these are the two channels growing out of like my end pretty like exclusively from within ZMAP Instagram and then that newsletter. But I found a lot of organic engagement because I Google once in a while. I just type in ZMAP to see what people are talking or are saying about ZMAP. And once I found a person maybe on Tumblr or some other platform saying. I mean, ZMAP is such an amazing resource. Thank you so much and I thought I was getting like a compliment and they said thank you so much Gwen for telling me about it. And I was like the hell is Gwen? Getting all the credit. But it's a signal of ZMAP existing like outside of me as its creator or like builder. More people are talking about it. Yeah, just as a community resource and I have nothing to do with it which is like beautiful in a way if I built something that just lives and breathes on its own. And so thank you Gwen for talking about it. Yeah. Gwen, if you're this, thank you so much. Yes, I'm thankful. Like I came around to it that I should really be thankful for people that are just talking about it and hyping it up. Sharing the news. Yeah. And I do see on because I do track user analytics to see what where people are coming from. And Instagram is only like five or six percent so far. Oh. And then I have maybe 30 or 40 percent from Google that we're just typing like ZN events or ZNFests and then they get to like ZMAP shows up as one of the top results. And then the vast majority are like maybe over 50 percent of the incoming traffic was just people going to ZMAP.com directly like typing it in their URL. So maybe I take that as like maybe people are going just to ZMAP because of word of mouth because they heard it from someone or maybe they saw it in the card or like my outdated promo materials. Yes. Yeah. So that's been really that's how I interpret this signal. And also there are people coming from chat GPT and AI. There's like two percent of people. I have mixed feelings about that but yeah, I think it can be helped. Same. Same. It's interesting though. I look at it and I go like what could this person have asked chat GPT to send them to ZMAP? To you. Yeah. It's interesting. The ZN events we do in Bohum where I'm part from. We also had two or three people telling us like oh yeah, I found you through chat GPT or Gemini or God or all the people like how? How can that happen? But yeah, I mean, I'm really not a fan of AI stuff but thanks to chat GPT to send people to our meetings. It did one right thing. Yeah, it did one right thing. Do you know where most of the visitors on your page come from? Like are they also mostly from Australia or all over the world? I think they're mostly from the states. Yeah, because there are so many people there. And the states have such a big scene community. Yeah, exactly. There's something happening like everywhere in the states because I don't know if you notice but right now if you go to ZMAP, you see immediately like the map when it initializes it shows you like the states and maybe a bit of Europe. And this was a strategic thing for me at the beginning to do because it was showing a lot of activities. So it was like an example of what this can be. But then if you turn the globe around, it's like sparse in Africa and Asia sparse. And also Australia can be dense and like Sydney and Melbourne but because Australia as a country is pretty sparsely distributed. Like you see people densely like there's very dense population on East Coast, a little bit on the West Coast, some down south and then like nothing. Nothing. Yeah. A whole bunch of nothing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it was like in the beginning it was just a strategic from me to show the more populated or more interesting part of that. That it's working. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the Zines you make maybe. So you mostly make comic Zines, right? Yes. Do you have a favorite Zine from yourself or maybe also from someone else? My favorite Zine, I think. Well if I show you one here nobody's going to see it but yeah, you have to describe it. I have to describe it. But I'm eager to see you. So I take the advantage that we are on camera. Yes. Maybe it's easier for me to describe it as I show it to you. So I make a lot of comic Zines. And so far they're probably all comic Zines except for one photo Zine of how I got CJ as my name, which was a name the stowed upon me by a Starbucks person who could not spell my phone. Okay now you have to tell the whole story. Oh, it was my real name is CJ or CJ in Chinese. CJ. And then yeah. And then nobody ever bothers to ask you how it's felt in Starbucks. This was in 2015. So I'm showing you now on camera. This was the photosine that I made containing ways people spelled my name. And then these are all the ways they spelled my name. Oh, it's creative. You have to give it to them. Yeah. Sandra. Yes, Sandra. Yeah, Sandra. Like where the yeah. And then these are all just photos that I took. Yeah, 2015 to 2016. And in 2016 I acquired a taste for coffee. So these photos stopped. Okay, okay. So I'll go into Starbucks. But this is how I got my name. That was the last photo. And then in the end I have a comic of my friend that I made on the plane called Jeremy who told me he would not call me by CJ because he already knew another CJ who is African-American and his age and he was a Vietnam veteran and old. So like he already knows another CJ. So okay. And he thought that CJ was not fitting for you. Exactly. Yeah. So that was how this comic worked this scene and it's just oh that's great because it's also so personal. Yeah. Yeah. It's a I guess it's a perzine and a photo scene. Yeah. And with a little comic. And also a comic scene. Yes. It's all three. So many so many types. Yeah. In one scene. Yeah. What was your first scene? Like was it the collection of your comics? Yes. Yes. That was my first scene. And it's really substantial. Like it's one that you can spend like 20 minutes with. Oh okay. How many pages? 28 pages of comics and some pages were very dense. That's a lot. Sleep text. Yeah. I think I was pretty bad at making scenes or dealing with scene as like a concept going into it as like a comics person because you know it was it was about making it perfect. It was about like this body of work. It was about showing that body of work. But yeah. All or nothing. Yeah. Yeah. So it's this I'm showing. And again because we have camera it's like 28 pages of solid quote-unquote solid comics. And then I've since learned to make more casual scenes of just like out of just one idea like the name idea. So I think I've gotten better at making scenes. Yeah. I think scenes are such a good way to overcome your own perfectionism because the first scene is always the hardest because you think that it has to be the perfect scene that has never done before. And yeah. So that's that was the reason why I struggled with starting making scenes for almost 10 years, I think. - Wow. - But then I did my first one and after that, there was no stopping me anymore. So now I'm comfortable with even really small ideas making it for Zine and-- - Yeah, I think that's a thing. I think I've heard of a quote from, I don't know whom I'm going to quote, miss quote this person, but it's something about the first album you make. It's maybe age of 20. It's an album of 20 years. It's like 20 years of your understanding of music, your taste, your aesthetics going into one album. So it's like everything. But then the second one would just be the month after you made the first one. - Yeah, okay. - It's an accumulation of a much shorter period. - Yeah, okay. Oh, that's a nice thought, yeah. - Yeah, my first comic. My first Zine was my Zine of 28 years. And then the second one was just-- - Okay. - Yeah, 28 and a half or something. - Yeah, okay. - The tip I give almost everyone who asks me like, how can I make my first Zine is that I say that you have to try to make the worst Zine you can imagine doing. Like just to overcome your own perfectionism. Just do it shitty, but just do it. And then the second one can be your perfect one, but not the first one. - I forgot who wrote the book, "Bird by Bird." And there's the famous idea of a shitty first draft. It's kind of similar to what you just said about getting a shitty first version now. - Yeah. Our comic Zines also are the Zines. You usually buy or trade with people or are you interested in all the Zines? - I think so. I'm still very much a comic's person. I trade like if someone comes up to me with a Zine, I'll happily trade like anything. Really, I've never turned down someone who wants to trade like what a crime. - Yeah. - Yeah, but I think I'm mostly still very much as a reader. I still read a lot more comic stuff or be attracted to comics. Although I think I've seen just from building Zine map as well, and from going to Zine events, I've seen a lot of very interesting things that are also inspiring that are not necessarily comics. There is one that I stumbled upon in Tasmania when I was there. A Fidesen Fest of a Zine that's Tasmanian Roadkill. So it's photos of dead animals in Tasmania. It's hilarious. - Not creepy at all. - Not creepy at all. - It's not creepy at all. - It's not creepy. The way they made it, it was hilarious. I don't know how to feel. Should I feel it's like to see dead animal bodies, but also they made it. - Is it okay to laugh about it? - Exactly. That kind of sentiment, but it's so interesting. I think that Zine inspired me to make my CJ the photo Zine. That's also a story about how I got my name. I think it was the inspiration of photos and then how you interpret them. - I really like it when Zine surprises you. So either in the topic, because I have so many Zines about topics, I had no idea about before, or also in the way they are made. So my favorite format of Zines is the normal eight page mini Zine. That's usually my favorite one, because I like it that you only have the eight pages. And that's it. Yeah, I really like it that you have this contained format. And only the eight pages you have to fill. But I also like it when people experiment with folds, papers and stuff. And as you said, I never turn anyone down when anyone wants to trade with me. Because I think usually I'm much happier with a new Zine than with, I don't know, two or three euros. - Thank you. - My Zines usually come. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Zine makes me much more happy than a few euros. So I'm very happy to trade at Zine events and stuff. But I mean, I also, I have the luxury that Zines are just my hobby and I don't have to make money from them. So is there any question that you thought I would ask you? And I didn't. - Yet. - Any question I thought you would ask me for you didn't. - It's just been such an organic natural flowing conversation that I. - No, that's compliment. - I think there's any gap. - No. - Yeah, perfect. - Then, yeah, all that I have to say now is thank you that you were such an amazing guest on my podcast. - Thank you. - And that you took the time to speak to me. - Oh, I'm really excited to see what ZineMap will be in a few years. - Thank you. Such an honor to be on your podcast, one that I've been really listening to for the past month. Thinking that I come here and maybe speak some German, but like it's such. - But you did. - I did. Yes, kudos to myself. But you're a wonderful host. It's husband and absolute pleasure. - And thank you for including the ZineMap card, Zine or ZineTouch. - I think most of the ZineTouch people will have the letters today, or maybe yesterday. So when this episode comes out, all the people should have got the letters. - Amazing. And one of big projects, like let's just do it as I can't imagine. - That's true. - I saw the photos with all the letters addressed to different places people. - Yeah, it's taking over my life. Slowly, but yeah. It's always such a nice time. - Yeah. - Okay, so thank you again so much. - And see you on ZineMap. - That was Zine's FM. In the show notes you find that Zine, today's episode, to the questions and self-fals. New episodes are always on the first and 15th of the month. Thank you for listening and maybe see you next time.