#355 Captain Royce Williams - 101-Year-Old WWII Veteran & Medal of Honor Recipient

Captain Royce Williams! Yes, sir. Welcome to the show, sir. Thank you. This is truly an honor to be able to do this. Thank you. I'm so pleased. It's, yeah, it's a real honor to document you guys' stories, and especially yours. So this is an incredible career you've had, and, you know, the journey to the Medal of Honor you received is just amazing. So it is truly an honor to have you here and to be able to document your story. So if you don't mind, I'd like to start you off with an introduction. Very good. Captain Royce Williams, you're a decorated U.S. Navy fighter pilot whose life and career spanned over the Great Depression, World War II, the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, and the collapse of the Soviet Union. On November 18, 1952, you fought a gang of Soviet MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan for 35 minutes in what the Navy has called the longest dogfight in U.S. military history. After serving for 37 years, involving 227 combat missions, 518 carrier landings, and over 4,500 flight hours, you retired from the Navy as a captain in 1980. The true story of that flight remained classified for decades because of direct Soviet involvement. In 2026, at 100 years old, you were finally awarded the Medal of Honor. And from my heart, I'm so grateful to you. I'm so grateful to you. And from my understanding, that went from a silver star to a Navy cross to the Medal of Honor. It did. Wow. And so, like I said, it's an honor to have you here today. So I got you a couple of gifts. So one, everybody gets a gift. A little something for the flight home. Those are Vigilance Elite gummy bears. Uh-huh. Thank you. Made in the U.S.A.? Uh-huh. Not China. Not China. And the second gift, also made in the U.S.A., is. Now, pilots always love pistols. I don't know how they are with rifles, but. Yes, indeed. This is the SIG Sauer P365 Macro with a slide-up front for recoil management. And there you go. It's a light. Not bad, huh? Yeah. For me, my age and withering, I have trouble with holding, so this is sweet. Well, you got a young Marine out there that can help you, too. But. We've got one that I see quite often named Ted, who's a famous. Oh, really? And really, he's written numerous books. He owns several security organizations. He's a stud. And he has his own firing range and so forth over in the desert. Wow. And I see him at some of the groupie things that I go with. This is so nice. I had a friend named Jason over at SIG Sauer, and I told him you were coming on, and he was ecstatic and wanted me to give that to you. So. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. My pleasure. So, I would like to, in a way, reciprocate. Okay. I have a hat here, and behind it is a big anaconda. For you, sir. Sure. Thank you. And then, yeah, that is the more important part of it all. Mm-hmm. Incredible. Oh, wow. Thank you. Surely. I'll read this after the show. Is that okay? Okay. Fair enough. Oh, man. Oh, man. This is incredible. A Medal of Honor decanter, Royce Williams, Captain, U.S. Navy, and a set of whiskey glasses. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Beautiful. Thank you. Hope you like it. I have never even seen a Medal of Honor in person. Well, I'm just recently aware of it. How did that feel, to go from a Navy Silver Star to a Navy Cross to a Medal of Honor at 100 years old? It felt fabulous. And as much as the story of lies to eventually the exposure that the Soviets made revealing what really happened, I'm kind of a military kid. My dad was World War I and big in the American Legion in the little town of South Dakota where we had a lot of war. Yeah. Yeah. where we had veterans from the Civil War, Spanish-American War, Mexican-American War, and World War I. - Wow. - And my brother and I had gray uniforms and attended a lot of the meetings and so forth, and watched some of the movies, "All's Quiet in the Western Front," from the time we were probably eight years old. And it had a lot to do, I think, with what we did when we grew up. - Your father, your dad, he was a World War I veteran, correct? - Yes, yes. And the Army of, that followed on after the combat, Army of. Anyway, he was a great story. He had a.45 pistol. He was a machine gunner. But he was standing a watch at a small town where people were hungry, and there was a wild boar running down the street a half a block away. And the people yelling at him to shoot it, shoots. And he took this.45 out, which is hard to shoot anyway, and he wasn't good at it, and he nailed it. And they all had a big dinner. - Oh man. And your dad actually, did he try to enlist or commission for World War II? - He, I suppose, was drafted for it, I don't know. But he tried, oh, for World War II. Yes, he tried to get back in, and they wouldn't accept him. Of course, logistics wins wars, and he was very much a part of logistics work. Work. Grocery business, they turned over to women, and he went out on the farm, and other tough jobs. - You know, you grew up during the Great Depression. - Yes, indeed. - Can you talk about that a little bit? - Oh, yes. Cut down on variation, just same old, same old. One of my sisters, one evening, said, "Soup again?" And we always say that being in the grocery business, you have vegetables and fruit and so forth that's spoiled. So when it gets to where you can't sell it, then we eat it. My wife, mother cans it, and whatever. But my dad was just super nice guy, and there were people worse. There were people worse off than him, and some of 'em were large families. And the way the business went then, everything that was sold, when it was more than a candy item, would be written down on a pad in totals. And a lot of 'em couldn't pay it, but the books piled up. And after a while, he said to me, "Royce, if you can collect anything on here, it's yours." He just basically donated it. - No kidding. What a hell of a guy. - Yeah, he was, he was. - How old were you when the Great Depression hit? - Oh, I started, I suppose, about four years old. Four years old. One of the first things, Herbert Hoover was president, and it hit me hard. I had $5 in the bank, and it disappeared. At $5 then, it was probably a couple hundred today. I would work on the farm 18 hours in the heat and all, up early and working late, $1. So I'm making $27 a month, and I gave up that job to be shot at for $23 a month in the Army. Did you, before we moved? And I put $18 of that in the bank. What did you spend the money on? Hershey wire. And before you moved? Before we get to your military service, you met your wife at 11 years old. Yes. How did you guys meet? In Sunday school. First day, we moved from South Dakota to Minnesota because my dad modified the building. He bought the main street grocery up front and our quarters in the back. And when it was ready, we drove over. And at first. First Sunday, there she was in Sunday school. Cute and 11 and a lovely lady. Did you talk to her first? Oh, yeah. What did you say? Do you remember? No, no. I was pretty timid. So it was one of maybe 10 kids in the Sunday school class. And we were just sitting there with my brother also. New guys. And it took us some time to open up and talk to everybody. And you. Let's move to your military service. Why did you decide to join the military? Oh, gosh. It was built in. What I had done up to then, my interest in the American Legion. I just felt. Also, I was big in scouting. And it seemed hand-in-glove. Nation needed you. Yeah. So, about two months after Pearl Harbor, I enlisted in the Minnesota Guard, which was nationalized. And I had two cousins in it that were killed in North Africa. They were killed in North Africa. Mm-hmm. What was the sentiment of the country after Pearl Harbor happened? Well, it was immediate and it was solid. Even a German family that were sort of rebels in World War I were on board for this one. And I think that was a very strong feeling. What was the, you know, what was the sentiment of the country after Pearl Harbor happened? Well, it was immediate, and it was solid. And everybody had a piece of something. A lot of them started out by saving paper. And even with chewing gum, taking the silver part out and watering it separate, everything was being saved. And everyone had a hand. And it didn't take long before I go down the street and I look in the window and there's either a blue flag were a star or a gold star they they donated they gave what they could everybody was pitching in one way or another everybody was fishing it was just common were a lot of people enlisting at that time everybody wanted to serve the country yes yes yes yeah and i really don't know except people that were like me and the guard got nationalized immediately they were in there was no volunteering or anything they were already a part of it and they weren't conscripted but there was conscription but an awful lot of volunteering and people getting in line to volunteer wow wow When something is part of your everyday kit, it has to work. I don't care if it's boots, bags, eyewear, training gear, or underwear. If you're wearing it all day, traveling in it, training in it, sitting in it, it better be built right. That's why I like sheath. Sheath was built to solve a real problem. 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They have corporate gatekeepers who control the messaging. They care more about clicks than the truth. But one source of unbiased, deeply researched news and commentary that I trust is the Megyn Kelly Show. As you all know, I've talked with Megyn many times. Right here, on camera, on this show, for hours and hours on end, and on her program. and I have a ton of respect for her and I've really enjoyed having her on The Sean Ryan Show and I'm sure I'll see her again here. She has integrity and is truly an independent journalist. Every day, Megan hosts The Megan Kelly Show live on Sirius XM's The Megan Kelly Channel, 1-11 from noon to 2 p.m. Eastern. Then you can find it for free on YouTube slash Megan Kelly And, of course, on Apple and Spotify. Megan is a person to turn to so that you can find out what's actually happening and why. The story behind the story. So check out The Megyn Kelly Show on YouTube and on all podcast platforms. What did you want to do in the military? I wanted to fly off aircraft carriers. Where did you hear about that? As a little kid, both my brother and I were aviation-motivated, and we both joined the Navy cadet program in due time. I had to wait until I was 17 to go from Army to Navy, and I got in the aviation cadet program. Did you join at 17 years old? Yes. So you were in the Army for, what, about a year? Yes. And then switched over? Mm-hmm. What planes were available to fly back then? Well, I started in an N-3N. It was a Boeing airplane built for Navy. Most of them had floats, and they were built for the Naval Academy. But I trained in pasture in Arkansas. These are prop planes, correct? Yeah, open cockpit biplanes. Open cockpit? Yes, yes, yes. These are made out of sticks and canvas, propeller. Gas gauge is a cork. They flew it, showing you how much fuel you had. Wow. Did they have guns on them? Pardon me? No. No? No. It was just basic training. Training planes. However, my instructor was one of the people that fly crop dusters. Oh. And he taught me some things that weren't in the syllabus. How long was flight training? Oh, goodness. I got in, I went from Army and 42, Navy, in 43 and i didn't get my wings till um 45. got your flight wings during world war ii in august of 1945 right and all that was flight training at uh i guess five different bases wow was your brother on that with you yes and not well samuel he went to wool chamberlain for pre-flight for a primary flight in minneapolis and he went to pre-flight at the university of iowa state i went to primary flight at memphis and my pre-flight was at university of georgia how did it feel to get your flight wings to get back what your wings how did it feel to get your flight mission accomplished and what i wanted to do and uh it uh took me a while but uh i was focused and bingo that happened was your dad proud oh indeed yes was he there when he got your wings no what did you tell him um well he followed it all the way you know and as time matured he was well aware i was getting my wings my brother had already gotten his because when i was still in the army he was in the navy in the cadet program so he got his probably at least six months before i got mine he carrier qualified in lake michigan on the paddle wheel aircraft carrier and went into combat and coursers in on the bedouin strait a little jeep carrier off okinawa and what did what were you flying well i flew a whole lot of airplanes it depends at what point but i finally went from uh canvas and sticks to metal and after a while uh airplanes that uh the wheels would come up and uh they would have flaps and sophistication i mean do you want to do you want from hellcats and corsairs to jets i did and in between was spd and uh bearcats the bearcat being my favorite airplane very powerful airplane what plane is that right there well this one is the enemy that's a meg that was the best airplane in the world at uh the time in the 1952 and this one's a panther it's what i was flying at that event how did it feel i mean you went from flying prop planes to those to jets yes what i mean that has to be a staunch difference well flying is flying the propeller develops torque so you use it your right foot to use the uh the tail to correct for what's being imposed on on your flight especially landing and coming in for a carrier not so with the jet that thrusts you straight down and you don't need the rudder so much and it's quieter and it's just plain smoother doesn't rattle as much uh goes a little faster um other than that flying is flying were you i mean were you guys pilots which is really excited to move to the jet i was i was coming from monterey pg school to assignment in the air group that i eventually joined but to a courser squadron because i was qualified in the corsair and my wife and i were driving down and we're going to get a motel i went by miramar the air base that i would be working out of and i drove over to look at the air group that i'd be joining and there were the panther jets and i said oh that's what i really would like so i got the name of the commanding officer and his phone number and found out he's a guy i knew at the university of minnesota that was executive officer of the rotc unit and i called him and told him i'm coming in to the air group and to the courser squadron but i really love to be in the panther squadron you can see what i could do the next day i was in his squadron wow i bet that felt good worked out great so you the majority of world war ii you were training correct yes from the beginning i i didn't miss much of it about two months after pearl harbor i was in what what was what was it like when world war ii ended what was the what was it well i was like a lot of people that didn't want to make a career of it and they went downtown and celebrated i just i didn't drink till i was 23. so i just stayed on the base and marveled at the changes about me that because the war was over and people were getting out by big numbers really so they legitimately they went in to fight for the country yes they did and when it was over they were like all right we want to go back to every day a lot of them stayed on and of those that wanted to because they cut back were forced out and i didn't know why i wasn't because i was a high school kid and expect and without the actual combat there's a lot of math i got selected for regular navy and sent the university of minnesota and for 18 months to get a two-year degree and i got a four-year degree then since a bg school catch up How long was it after World War II that the Korean War started? 48 to 50, 51. What's that? Six years. Six years. If I'm doing my math right. Do you want to talk about kind of the conflict and why we got involved in the Korean War? Yeah. The Koreans, the pronunciation sticks out there. Not quite China. It's its own country, but Japan on one side and China on the other and Russia right on top of it. Awfully a lot of influence in that country. And the Japanese had been in there in a big way for several years. And then along came World War II and then they lost it. And they also lost their position in Korea. And then the fighting took place between the north and south of the 38th parallel, dividing them north above it and upper. They were border China. And they became communist influenced. And there was greed looking at each other and influence to where they were very unhappy. And in time, the North Koreans, the Russians wanted to invade and become one country, all communists. And that's when the United Nations took a look and joined in and trying to protect the South. The Japanese, by the way, at that time backed off. But there were hard feelings between the two countries. The Soviet Union supplied aircraft, equipment, and advisors to North Korea and China. and secretly sent Soviet pilots to fly MiG-15s against American aircraft. Yes, and when you say Soviet, of course that includes modern Russia at that time, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and so forth. Stalin authorized Soviet pilots to fight under a layer of deniability. They flew MiG-15s with the North Korean or Chinese markings and were supposed to avoid situations where a captured pilot or wreckage would expose Moscow's role. When did you learn about this? Did you know about this as it was taking place? I did. I don't think it was a well-kept secret. Did you know about these? So you knew about these MiG-15s and their capabilities? Oh, I did. I knew about their capabilities. And we were not really involved with them. They were, I don't know the reason why, but all of their effort was on the eastern half of northern Korea fighting against the Air Force. The Air Force had the responsibility for the eastern half and the Navy pretty much the western half. And after an early episode, they pretty much left the western, the Navy portion. And what they had was in Russia and not involved in Korean War. Or so I thought so. U.S. radar detected aircraft approaching the carrier force, Task Force 77. You, now 27 years old, were about to take off on your second combat mission of the day. Yes. Flying Combat Air Patrol near North Korean-Soviet border area in a F-9F Panther with three others. Yes, sir. Can you describe that day? Yeah, I was on the first mission of the day and the weather was good and the target was. accelerated on the upper border of North Korea that was ripe with manufacturing and warehousing, war materials. We were unable to hit it from our normal position with the task force located at the 38th parallel. We didn't have in-flight refueling in those days and it was just out of range. And it was a pity. And our task force. Our task force commander, Jocko Clark, vice-admiral, decided we better do something about it. So he arranged for a task force of three carriers and 20-some other support ships. His battleship, I suppose a couple of cruisers and a lot of destroyers. And on the night of the 18th, we moved up off Changjin, which was a rather long. It was a large commercial shipping coastal city about halfway from the 38th parallel to the Soviet, to the upper targets, and well within range. But that's where we operated in the ocean, 100 miles at sea from Changjin. Wow. And what was the target? The target was the city of Changjin's. Warehousing and manufacturing. Do you know what they were manufacturing? I don't. War materials. I've met probably general materials, which are also used by civilians, but supporting combat troops. And what were you. What were you guys. Were you going to bomb it? Yes. What kind of munitions were you carrying on the Panther? We were carrying bombs. Bombs and rockets and 20-millimeter cannons. And I think I probably had 500-pound bombs, probably maybe six of them, something like that. Wow. Mm-hmm. And so let's move into November 8th, 1952, the day of the longest dogfight in U.S. military history. Wasn't it 18th? November 18th. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, it was my second flight of the day. When I landed, the weather was deteriorating, bad already, with clouds down to 500 feet and poor visibility with a blizzard, blowing snow, cold. And landing, they told me to get a quick lunch. I would be on the next launch. And a combat air patrol. So I did. And I mustered with the three other pilots of that flight, none of them which I'd ever flown with before. We were all in this division in this extra flight because we had not kept up with all the rest in equal amount of combat flights because of colds or whatever. And so I was flying in as a section leader. That's the guy that flies the two airplanes on the lead and his wing, so it was four airplanes. And I have in charge of the second two flying together. We briefed, and we didn't expect any combat threat, air threat. It was going to be a piece of cake. And went out in the storm, got catapulted, joined up, climbed through the clouds. And while climbing, got a report from Combat Information Center, our control on the Oreskeny, the ship I was operating from, that there were inbound bogeys, a term for unidentified aircraft. Don't know whether they're friendly or not. So in the clouds. And when we got on top of the clouds at 12,000 feet and in the clear, could see them coming from the north directly at us. I don't know, it was maybe 60 miles away, but closing pretty fast toward each other. And at that time, the lead airplane announced that he had a fuel pump warning light. And they directed him and his wingman to return and remain above the clouds over the task force. So I'm now a lead. And they were directing me to intercept and find out who and what. So as they passed over me, I saw they were MiGs. How did that make you feel? It made me feel that they were interested in looking us over. At least. Were you nervous? No. I didn't think there would be any combat. Really? Yeah. There hadn't been any really on the east coast. So I went about getting ready to fight. I charged my guns. I got to the site and everything and going, turned on the master armament switch, and I was ready to fight. And directed intercept. So as he went over the top of me, I identified him. They head back north from whence they came, saying we just returned flight. And I climbed to intercept, and they were faster and very high. The airplane was capable of flying at altitudes that the Panther couldn't reach, nor the Air Force F-86. The Air Force F-86 couldn't get up there either. It was a superior airplane. So I climbed with my wingman, who I'd never flown with before, in the direction to try and close the gap and look them over. Falling behind, but climbing to 26,000 feet in their direction, at which time they split it into, into two groups. They were one formation, beautiful-looking group. But the lead and a total of four airplanes broke off to the right and three to the left, separate formations. And I assumed that they were going into land. They dove out of the clouds, out of the contrail level to where they disappeared, didn't clear up. clear air well to the north of us and i declared to combat that i lost contact and they said they had two because as they became smaller group they didn't show on the radar anymore so they directed me to return turn around come back from whence i came to establish a barricade back and forth from the last sighting and the task force and just to be ready in case they were still interested certainly showed interest in just flying down toward the task force and then spotting that we had an air patrol and then turning around well with malice and we had the new combat capability of the nsa with the detachment on the helena a cruiser off the coast of vladivostok watching everything they are doing and listening to their instructions and they're telling them to increase speed and to intercept and with that in mind it looks like it was pretty nasty um so as in that turn to come back and establish a barricade would be going east and west whereas the approach up there was north and south this would be crossing it and uh in that turn the four that went off to the right and descended were down at my altitude and coming directly in my 10 o'clock position and loose formation so they could each fire on their own solution and all four were shooting sheesh so the fight was on and it's just you versus four megs though i have my wingman with me you had your win who've you've never flown with before from what i understand that's right and as they came on in i saw them fighting uh firing and i knew the fight was on and i turned hard into them as they went by me ended up right on their tail end charlie fired a short burst and he dropped out of formation and my wingman left and followed him on down and was out of the fight no longer 26 000 feet but for the next 35 minutes at full throttle 36 37 whatever thousand feet 27 not 37 27 now uh we were engaged so there were six planes six big superior planes versus me and the panther and as the remaining six megs versus you and a panther odds aren't good and yeah the these three were four they're now three and they pulled up abruptly showing off their might as they climbed rapidly accelerating high above me while the other three that turned off to the left came in from the other side and i was going to shoot at the guy that just lost his wingman but i saw the other two had already turned in and were shooting at me so i reversed over and picked the lead who happened to be a world war ii ace well-known guy and i got him in my sight he was already shooting and i fired a short burst and he stopped firing and turned away and i'm quite sure he was hit yeah i don't say shot down i don't think so at that point but then his wingman which uh was following right with him was also coming and he picked me as a target and he shot me in the tail end of the wingman and he was shooting and i reversed after this guy turned away and i got the solution and fired and he quit firing but i think he was incapacitated probably dead he didn't maneuver at all he just slid it right underneath my airplane okay and then like i said the other three came and they're now at least two of these in the battle going down and they no longer were in formation they are taking a position above me elevation wise and when it's their turn they're coming in and my tail and shooting at me and then when they can no longer consider me a target they would pull back up and to get back and take their turn again so so that was remains of active makes that's what they're doing they're just with their superior capability we're getting up and when it was their turn they would come in until they were through firing and then they pop up and get in position again well so my primary concentration is my tail and that's kind of to start with they were head-on targets but no longer now they're in a superior position and taking their time about when they're going to shoot and 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okay so my primary concentration is what's going on as me as a target and uh over and over and over yeah i don't want to drop it they belong to my neighbor there we go thank you thank you one of them one of them after firing instead of putting his nose up he just turned kind of level at my elevation like this and i was able to turn around with him in range and i hit fired at him close in and pieces of his airplane started coming off and i had to maneuver abruptly to keep from hitting him with my airplane Uh, So there goes another one for sure. And as this went on, 35 minutes, longest air battle ever, I think. Still to this day. Pardon? Still to this day, the longest dogfight in U.S. military history. With the weapons now being missiles instead of guns, this sort of thing won't recur. So one came in, and I happened to stance, was right on his tail, and I fired, and he started dropping and smoking, slowing, and I was closing right behind him, and I don't know why, I was always just firing short bursts, about 16 seconds worth of 760 rounds of 20 millimeter, that I had to be cautious to stay in the fight at all, and these guys are firing in 70, 37 millimeter, one gun, and two 23 millimeters, so they had me sort of outgunned. So I'm behind this guy, and I decided I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and I was going to make another squirt, and it was the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's the first time I realized I was going to make another squirt, and it's talking to the task force that I'm returning for recovery, hopefully. And so we were in touch, and I'm just letting on down to below the clouds. And as I come in, and I see the task force, and they're shooting at me. They were at general quarters, which means ready to fight and cleared to fire if they have a target that is not identified as friendly. And they had forgotten to identify me to the defensive forces, so they shot at me. So now you're taking blue on blue. The officer had just been launched to go up and relieve me in combat and saw what was happening and called him off, and so no more shooting at me. So I used the time to analyze my situation and wait for the carrier that was ready to launch another air-to-ground attack against Horyong, and they had to move them forward to make the landing area available for me so move it ahead of the barricade which is a device that comes up in the middle of the ship that protects anybody landing from going into the pile of aircraft that are parked forward so when that was done they were ready for me to land. So I found out at that time that the airplane would stall out if I'm flying anything below 170 knots, 200 miles an hour. Normally come in about 105 to 115, so this was hot. So I notified the landing signal officer of this problem, and they passed it to The captain of the ship, who was in storm with a lot of wind, and the ship can develop 30 knots, said bring him in as big as you want because he could compensate for it. Good. That takes the heat off that particular part of it. But while they are moving the aircraft forward, I use what capability I have to fly the airplane to try and get in position so that when the ship turned into the wind as they do to land i would be in position to make my approach and in about 10 minutes i got a signal charlie mean land and they were into the wind but i was over here out of line and because i didn't have elevator and rudder, I could go up and down fine, but I couldn't turn well. And so I'm coming at the ship to make a landing, pointed at it, but off angle to where I would be crossing the deck instead of lined up with it. And announced it as such, and the captain was And the only time I've ever heard of it, the captain lined the ship up with me, and I made it nicely. Holy shit. Wow. Yeah. What was it like to be back on the deck? Good. All bad. Good. And I got popped out of it, went into the ready room, which was full of pilots, because that's our station for general quarters, all the pilots, except for the group that just took off to replace me in there, the skipper of the squadron and his division. Was the wingman there? My wingman? After I landed, all of them came in and landed. And unfortunately, the last one to land was the guy who was the flight lead. It was out of combat. It didn't have anything to do with it. But the intelligence officer wanted to debrief him first to put it in the standard order. It was kind of mixed up, and he shouldn't have done that. and there was pressure on him to get into the ship's intelligence officer where Washington was on the line wanting to know what was going on. And he held off and tried to get some information through debriefing. And he had me in there, and he's not debriefing me, the only one that really was in the fight, because he wanted to go one, two, three, and order. And finally, when the plane landed, he found out he had nothing to do with it, and he finally got around to me, and I told him about the plane that I had to abruptly turn or run into him. And he finally gave up. I can see his confusion and concern. Washington's on the line, and he wanted to hear right now. Well, he didn't know anything, and he went in and made up a story. And he gave everybody a little credit for patting the back. And that became history. Sheesh. So he went in, wow. He went in and lied. He did. And that was it for 50 years. Even though when the Soviet Union broke up in, I think, 92, the newspaper in Moscow came out listing the event and listing the names of four people that were shot down. Shot down, not whatever else. So that left, what, three. And they did cover them, but they came out in, what, 2002. They came out with a history book covering the war and all the big engagements during that time, including the Air Force. And this event, only one returned, and they listed the name of the guy. They came back. So there are two. We don't have names. We don't have positive knowledge of what happened to them. But they didn't get back. That is a hell of a mission. Exciting. Yes, I'll say that. No, I took it in stride. I just was prepared, I guess. What kept you calm up there? Were you calm? Calm. What kept you calm? Nature. Nature. God. I just took it as it came and busy, busy doing my best to be a good fighter pilot. And you're the only one in that plane, correct? Yes. Oh, and later, a year ago now, I woke up at night and I thought I was talking to God. I really thought I was talking to God. Really? And he's saying, Royce, all this confusion, people giving me, me, God, credit for the airplane getting back and landing on that ship. And he said, you missed it. You ran out of ammo and you got hit. There was no reason for you to stick around anymore. Had you been there just a few more minutes, you'd run out of fuel and you'd be dead. God told you that? That's true. That wouldn't last much longer up there and there would have been no rescue. When did God tell you that? About a year ago. About a year ago. What did it sound like? Pretty natural. It was kind of a conversation. It was kind of a handsome man, a fuzzy view, but it seemed real. What did his voice sound like? Did it sound like yours? Not female, male. Bass. Maybe dinner. Is that the only time you've talked to him? I've had what I feel is communications, but nothing where I felt like I was personally talking to somebody. I thought I was dead one time for a few minutes and everything went just quiet. And I think there was one or two persons. There was one or two persons viewable, and then I came to and the room was crowded with doctors and everything and realized something had happened. How many more missions did you fly after that before you went home? This was just the completion of our first online tour. We flew about 30. And then we'd go into Yokosuka for resupply and R&R. And so this was the first one, I suppose, out of maybe five more 30-day mission before going home. Was that the first dogfight you'd ever been in? Yes. First and only real bullets. It was very unusual of any naval aviator getting involved in aerial combat in Korea and a little more so in Vietnam with different missiles. Before we moved to Vietnam, I read that you went back to look at the plane. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then it was gone. Yes. What happened to it? Well, I came down to the hangar deck from my quarters, and I saw a second-class aviation bosun mate. And I said, I'm the pilot that flew the airplane back with the bullet holes in it yesterday. And I realized it's going to be put ashore, and I'd like to take one last look. And I'm sorry, sir, but we push it over the side. You should know, they're the people that handle the airplanes. But my very good friend who spent 12 serious years investigating the combat information, trying to get more data and get credit for me, learned that by tracking the bureau number that the airplane was going to be put ashore. He was offloaded indeed and restored and sent for duty as a trainer in Corpus Christi, Texas. Now, both of them sound very reliable, believable, but only one can be true, and I don't know which one. How many times, how many bullet holes were on that plane? Well, really one. And perforations. Two hundred and sixty-three. Mm-hmm. But mainly this is from a 37-millimeter exploding right in the middle of the engine area. Sheesh. And putting holes, more of them going out than going in. Wow. But I'm protected with armor plating from where that happened in the back of the seat of my airplanes. i wasn't injured except for my looking around and bleeding at the neck from the gasket up there and spending most of my time looking behind me that is incredible how did it feel when admiral briscoe told you to never speak of this it was almost a shock but i accepted for what it was worth right there that i'm not gonna i'm not gonna talk about this ever and uh made up my mind and didn't how long was it before you could talk about it 50 some years did you tell your wife no holy wow i didn't tell anybody i was told by admiral richardson who had spent a lot of time in intelligence at a cocktail party at the tail of headquarters hey royce there's more to this story than you're saying isn't there i'm trapped he said well i want you to know it's no longer classified and you can talk about it i said well gee nobody's interested in that's past history years and years ago i said hey i'll tell my wife hey cam and i told her about this thing and i had to keep it secret oh royce but two years later i told my brother the marine aviator about it and he he was super surprised what did he say oh come on royce yeah she so you came home from that and is that when you decided to get married oh no i came after my second south pacific tour i guess in 1947. And I had gotten engaged by having a leave at Christmastime in, I think, 1945. Yeah, because I had wings, and I pinned my wings on her as an engagement device. And so, we were waiting for an opportunity, and I'm coming back from deployment, and she picks the 1st of June as wedding date. And so, it happened then that a large portion of your crew on the ship goes on leave when you get back to the States, and somebody has to stay behind. And that was me. Because calendar-wise, that was going to set me up to get my turn for the 1st of June. And during that time, very busy, because we were trading Corsairs for Bearcats. And I was the ensign. I was an ensign four years. I was the senior officer there parlaying all these transfers. And then, as they finished their time. It was my turn, and I went home. My brother, now 1st Lieutenant Marine, with a convertible Mercury, came back as my best man. And I went with him to Minneapolis to buy a car for my need as a married man. And I bought a Studebaker Commander. On a used car lot with six miles on it. And I was a happy man. Came back, and I think the next day, I got married. Between holiday shopping, family plans, and everything else on the calendar, there's a lot competing for your time. But your dog still needs to eat. And you want to feed them well without adding more. That's what I like about Sundays for Dogs. There's no refrigeration or prep. So you just scoop and serve. And my dog, Stanley, he loves it. It's human-grade food made with over 80% all-natural meat that's gently air-dried. And the recipes come from Dr. Tori Waxman, a practicing veterinarian who founded Sundays, formulates every recipe, and still runs the company today. I've tried a lot of different dog foods with Stanley. And Sundays is the one I trust to feed him every single day. Make the switch to Sundays. SRS listeners get early access to the Sundays Black Friday sale. That's 50% off before everyone else. If you've been meaning to try Sundays, now's your chance. No more excuses. Go right now to SundaysForDogs.com slash SRS50 and get 50% off. Or you can use code SRS50 at checkout. That's 50% off. That's early access to the Black Friday sale. 50% off. It's SundaysForDogs.com slash SRS50. SundaysForDogs.com slash SRS50. Or use code SRS50 at checkout. At some point after Korea, Eisenhower comes into the picture. Yes, sir. What happened there? General Eisenhower ran for president. I heard that a five-star general was running for president, and I thought it was MacArthur. But it was Eisenhower, and he said that if elected president, he would go to Korea and see firsthand what's going on, and make his imprint. So, the event was highly classified, and few knew about it, unless they were somehow directly involved one way or another. So, he was elected. And he was given a lot of. all the close information, including this event. And he said, I want to see that guy. And so, arrangements were made to come to Korea, and for me to have time with him. So, I was prepped and sent to South Korea to stand by for his visit to Seoul. And when Admiral Jocko Clark, the Task Force 77 commander, came on his way for that visit, he picked me up in Busan, South Korea, and flown to Seoul. I was dropped off from the limo at a hotel while he proceeded to Eighth Army Headquarters. Which today is University of Seoul. And he said, "Stand by the phone, and if this comes about, they'll send a limo for me." And I got the call on the limo and the trip, which was interested in itself, an awful lot of security. Every so many feet, all the way around the compound. And I got to the main gate with the Corporal of the Guard, Army MP Captain with the squad. And they weren't expecting me, so I more or less got jerked out of the car and brought into the guard house. And they were about to quiz me when the phone rang. And it was Admiral Clark on the other end there. And he's saying, "Do you have a Captain Williams down there, Navy?" He said, "What's your name?" And I said, "Williams." And he said, "Yes, sir." And words got kind of heavy, I guess, at the other end. They took the phone away from me. And I did, and it was snowing. And I arrived, and the Admiral was waiting for me at the door. And he brushed me off. And he said, "Get the snow off and comb my hair and get me to look decent." Follow him into this room that was loaded with very important four- and five-star secretaries and so forth. And once in there, I was introduced around. There were probably at least 15 of such level personnel. And all were just chit-chatting. And the President came in from the side, President-Elect. And General Mark Clark said, "Gentlemen, the President." And we snapped to, and the President says, "At ease, boys, at ease." And he was brought over to me because he knew everybody else. And I guess I was the bunch of what was going on anyway. They took me by the arm and led me to a chair. Overstuffed with arms, pressed me into it, sat on the arm of it, put his arm around me, and looked me right in the eye. And he said, "Lieutenant, before we get down to business, we ought to have a drink, don't you think?" I said, "Yes, sir." He says, "We have scotch and bourbon, water and soda. My son John's the bartender. What'll you have?" I said, "A bourbon." "A bourbon and water, please." He says, "We have awfully good scotch." I said, "Well, sir, I prefer bourbon." "Young man, we've got great scotch." "Well, yes, sir, but I prefer bourbon." "Lieutenant, we've got the world's greatest scotch, and Mr. President, I drink bourbon." And all these stars over there are dancing. "What's this snotty-nosed kid doing?" And so he says, "Oh, John, give him a bourbon water." And he did. And almost in a follow-on, it was similar that he stayed away from asking me anything direct that I had already been pledged to not talk about, to chat about, and so on and so forth. questions, and amongst the brass over there, a lot of them wanted to provide the answer to me and through me or whatever, and so I'm about to say something, and General so-and-so will get online and say his piece, and when he's through, he'd look back at me and say, and somebody else would pop up, and Lieutenant Williams, what were you going to say? And it happened the second time, and after that, they got the picture that we were talking, not them, but years later, I think the whole room full of people and the importance of how smart these guys are, and they're all drinking scotch, there's something I'm missing, so I made a study, and gee, this has got Pete in it. And charcoal, various flavors to high-powered scotch that I just didn't like. Well, one day, years later, I got a call from an author that wanted to interview me, and I said yes, and he arrived, and we went on the deck, and he had a bottle with him, and he said. He says, do you have a couple of glasses with ice? I said, yeah, give me a moment, so I went and fulfilled, brought them back out, and we poured it, and I said, what is this? And he said, scotch. I said, what? Scotch? He says, it tastes like really good bourbon to me. I said, what is this? It's monkey shoulder. Well, captivating. And a lot of my friends, a lot of convert going on here with drinking monkey shoulder. What did Eisenhower say he could do as president? He had the power to make changes and decide on equipment we use, procedures, and he just wanted to know. And what I thought about what the enemy did as compared to us, and what I thought about this and that. Did he make any changes? I don't know if he followed through on any of that. But it was stay on top of technology. Do you think he knew about the November 18th event? Oh, he was told about it, and that's when he said, I want to see that guy. I mean, do you think he knew the whole story? Sure, I think NSA has got to tell somebody, and I don't know anybody else. And right now, President Trump, when he decided to give me the Medal of Honor, jumped on them to release some information that they've been holding close. They grabbed the film, everything, and they just hush-hush, and they let the lie live. I don't know why. They couldn't correct the story a little bit, but they just stayed out of it. Royce, how long was it after that event on November 18th that you got the Silver Star? Oh, when our tour, the ship's tour, air wing tour, was over, the war was sealed on in 1953. We went back maybe just before July, and that's when the truce was declared. And then on the last day on the land, no longer in combat, we had a meeting on the hangar deck of the wards being passed out. And I was given it. Another. One of the pilots was giving it. My wingman was given the Distinguished Flying Cross, and I didn't know what for. But I got a Silver Star, and so did Middleton. And I didn't know what for, but because of what the intelligence officer said, they shared the wealth. Sheesh. So before we got back to the States. I got back to the States with a Silver Star. Did you talk to the pilots that went up after you when you landed, and they went back out? No, it was over by the time they got on top of it. They saw two mates heading back, and one of them made an emergency landing on an island and was killed. And only one guy made it back. You have some other stories where you almost died. One where you were flying, and you had hypoxia. Yes. What is that story? Yeah, I was exchanged duty with the Air Force flying at Las Vegas Nellis Air Force Base. And I was off on a flight by myself flying F-86. And I don't know why. Maybe it was testing a plane. I mean, just out of being worked on on a periodic basis to see that it all is well. Anyway, I got a guy to join on me, and we were looking for trouble. And we picked on two other airplanes and got on their tail at 44,000 feet, which is much higher than we usually flew. And I lost sight of them. And I asked my wingman, where are they? He said, they're right in front of you. I said, what? Where are you? On your wing. And I knew I was in deep trouble. We have training about what to expect when you have hypoxia, when you're out of oxygen. And I knew I'd had it. And just before I passed out, I pulled the little green apple at the handle. To actuate an oxygen system in your parachute emergency bottle and pass out at 44,000 feet. And I came to by myself at 18,000 feet. Holy shit. Yeah. Could have been all the way, just a little longer. And you woke up sharp, able to take control? Yes. Kind of groggy, but alert. And, yeah, from that point on, my aim was getting the plane back on the ground. Maybe that's another time God intervened, huh? There have been other times. Wow. Yes. And then you, let's talk about Vietnam. Okay. What were you doing in Vietnam? My first effort, starting in 1965, I was the wing commander on the USS Kitty Hawk. So I had several squadrons under my command. This was air combat. I was flying F-4s and A-4s. But we had A-6s and A-1s and EAs. And I was flying A-6s and A-1s and EAs. And the latest ship and the latest configuration of the air wing, this was top notch. How did you like those planes? I liked them. You didn't? I did. You did? I did, yes. I liked them a lot. The A-4 is kind of a small airplane, but it was designed for nuclear bomb delivery. And it was, our assignment was air to ground targets. And we were using, we have guns. And sometimes I would carry an auxiliary gun in addition to that. But normally it was rockets and bombs for ground targets of any nature. And some of it was close air support for our troops. But mainly in Vietnam, we were north of there. And our. Our troops were all fighting in South Vietnam. And we were in the north. You flew 110 missions there? At least. At least. Yeah, more than that. I ended up with 227, I think, combat missions between Korea and Vietnam. So, I don't know, they're split somewhat evenly. What were some of those missions? What's one that stands out to you? Oh, boy. There was a bridge between Haiphong and Hanoi. And it was a very important, big bridge over a large river. And it had been attacked several times before, including missions jointly with the Air Force. And they had never destroyed the target. And they had lost airplanes. It was well defended. And the admiral in charge of the task force called me and the other wing commanders in. And he wanted us to form a joint group, all of the ships there and the air wings, and really go after it big time. And I was the senior wing commander. And I knew the admiral. We were members of the same church back in the States. And I said, really, admiral, if you don't mind, I would prefer to take it, just my air wing by myself, and not the complexity of trying to work with these other ships and everything. He said, oh, really? You're willing to do that? And it was just great with the other wing commanders. They thought that was great. They had to tell me that later on when I saw them after the war was over. They appreciated it. And I did. And I designed it different from any other I think that had ever taken place. But I decided to go at it with just A-6s, which was the best airplane for the Korean War. And it was a very capable airplane. And F-4s, which would keep up with it and give good cover with the bombing and so forth that take out the defenses. And we studied and studied all the crews that are going on it. We were well prepared. And the A-6s took the bridge, and the rest of us all took the defenses. And we did it without any radio. We took off and we didn't go above maybe 200 feet. We just stayed on the water. We didn't turn on anything. No electric. There's no way they're going to know we're coming. And the A-6s take the lead and down low, no communication. No nav devices or anything. Wow. They just took off. All quiet. And we came in hot. And we hit the beach on almost 500 miles an hour. Then we popped up to target about 10,000 feet that we were going to start our dive. And to the target like that, and now we could talk because they didn't know we were there. And the lead went in with the A-6s. And we all took our other targets and took out the bomb-- the gun devices. And they took out three of the five sections of the bridge were in the water. We really did a job on them. And we got out, and we didn't lose a single airplane. Sheesh. I got interviewed. I said, you know what? I'm not going to do this. And I got interviewed after that by somebody from intelligence when I got back to say, what on earth was behind this? Wow. But it was successful. How did you-- Big time. So did you just take a straight bearing from the water to the-- to the-- to the-- to the target? Straight at it. Straight bearing. Split. Just popped on up, got in there. And whoosh. Hm. And then I got out of the water, and I got out of the water. And I got out of the water. I did a lot of air-to-ground, but none of them were that significant or well defended. Sheesh. I did one on a target with an airfield, and it was a chipped harbor, and it was loaded with Russian guns. And ships bringing warm materials. And we were instructed to stay clear of the Russian ships that came on in and took out the targets on the field and so forth, and gun emplacements, and got out of there. But it was enough that the ships got underway. They got scared good. But they were never a target. And still today, your favorite, after all the jets, the Panther's your favorite plane? No. What is your favorite plane? The FAAF Bearcat, my favorite airplane. It was the last propeller airplane I flew. Really? Power. It was just, the difference between it and other airplanes, it was just better at that time. Do you miss flying? Sure. Not in any big way. Really? Yeah. I fly when I can. I have friends that have airplanes. I don't get up much anymore, but I'm a hundred million, so no big deal. I want my tea to taste like tea, not a sports drink. That's where Buoy fits for me. It's a purposefully unflavored liquid electrolytes that I add into my water or tea. Buoy uses ocean-harvested sodium in 87 trace minerals with no sugar, sweeteners, flavors, or artificial ingredients. And it's third-party tested for pathogens, microplastics, heavy metals, and impurities. 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After Vietnam, I was APO 5A, Executive Assistant to the D.C. and O'Farrell in the Pentagon. And then Sybil Stockdale, wife of Admiral Stockdale, commander at that time, POW, Senior Prisoner of War in Hanoi. She was privileged. She had information I didn't know about that hurt her. Her husband and Sybil were briefed on certain communications techniques, whereas he could communicate if given the opportunity to write in a way that there was code in there that could never be understood by the enemy that they were passing intelligence. And she'd come to Washington and she'd be debriefed by the intelligence community. So she was there, and I was the head of prisoner of war programs. Well, I began, "Oh, no, I'm out of faith." She was there and having lunch with the secretary of the Navy, chief of naval operations, chief of naval personnel. She was there and having lunch with the secretary of the Navy, chief of naval operations, chief of naval personnel. And my boss, chief of naval air. And during the discussion, she's saying, "If you don't take some captain, aviator recently involved in combat and put his career on the line for these guys, the POWs, you're not trying hard enough." And as my boss, the admiral, came back, passed by me into his office, patted me on the back, said, What was the prisoner of war program? What was the prisoner of war program? I spent a lot of time with Stalin, but I even met with him in his living room. But I got around in meeting families all over the country. I even went out to Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, and I went back aboard the carriers that went everywhere. And I got in on writing some of the data for recovery when the prisoners are released. But I was full-time busy. You worked with your brother as an aviator, too, correct? Yes. What were you guys doing together? Well, he was a Marine, and he had World War II combat experience. And he was stationed at El Toro when I was at Los Alamitos. And I had been flying Hellcats and then switching over to Coursers. And he came through as a visit to me. And I went into the. I was the ops officer, and I was ready to transition. I said, my brother's here. He's well-qualified. And I said, okay, if he checks me out. He said, oh, sure. So he stood on the wing. This was the way we checked out. Very simple. No, what do we call them, practice devices or anything. We'd just get on the wing of the airplane, explain on how to start the airplane, what speed you. take off, and what speed you approach to land, what altitude to start your loop, and where you go. So he said, go ahead. So my brother checked me out in the Courser. And later on, I checked him out in the Bearcat. And I jumped in another one and went up, and we flew together. We flew together in F-8 Crusaders. And we flew together in F-4 Phantoms. And. That's awesome. Jolly good to fly in with my brother. That's incredible. Yeah. I sat when I was wing commander on the Kitty Hawk in Vietnam. He was stationed at Da Nang. And I landed there a couple times just to chit-chat with him. No kidding? Mm-hmm. What do you guys chit-chat about at the Biddle of the Vietnam War? What are you doing? What are your targets? You know, what do you hear from home? Wow. And you became an honorary Marine. Yeah. How did that happen? I didn't know that. Ha! Yes, big time. I'm really impressed. They had, well, the year before, I came into Pensacola, which I've done now a few years in a row. And they've always. They've always made a big deal out of it. And I came in, and they met me in the airplane and assisted me out. And at that time, I was in that walker bound. I think I had a cane. And they had side boys lined up. And I walked through all of them and into another room. And then we had a small party. And we came, escorted me to the hotel. And we had a bottle of monkey shoulder scotch and started with a little party and got. But I felt so noble about the way they treated me. And the next year, they wanted me to be a Marine. And they did it upright. There were two four-stars there. And they participated in the ceremony. And it was well done, and I'm pleased. Very pleased. So in 1980, you retired as a captain in the U.S. Navy, serving approximately 37 years. That's right. Over 4,500 flight hours. 3,000 jet aircraft. 1,500 propeller aircraft. 518 carrier landings. 70 career war, Korean War combat missions. 110 plus Vietnam combat missions. And approximately 227 combat missions in total. That's right. That's insane. Hmm. Well, there are friends I know that have over 500 combat missions. Wow. One of them was the deputy. The deputy CNO. And, uh, goodness. Wow. At 101 years old, you're a living bridge through an enormous time period of American warfare. Certainly. Certainly. So. 2023. I met Milena, the President's wife. That was a thrill. Yeah. How was that? She placed the ribbon around my neck. The First Lady. And she's a delightful woman. I mean, that was. So in 2023 is when it got upgraded to the Naval Cross, correct? The Navy Cross. Yeah. And then. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And that was a thrill. That was a thrill. February 26. You were awarded the Medal of Honor. The Medal of Honor. But there was, um, what is this? It's the. I mean, there's a time limit for it to get. Yes. Five years. Upgraded. Correct? No longer permitted consideration of an upgrade to Medal of Honor after five years. Yeah. Congress had to waive the time limit. Yes. So you were awarded the 2026 National Defense Authorization Act, which allowed your case to be considered despite the passage of more than 70 years. Congressman Daryl Issa just did a whale of a job on my behalf. Wonderful. Wonderful. You know, you've been through the Great Depression, World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam, and Desert Storm. You saw the global war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq. What do you want people to remember about you the most? Mm-hmm. That I cared. I cared about everything I got involved in. I did a lot of scouting. That's what I did. I have two awards beyond Eagle, and the last one was done aboard the USS Midway Aircraft Carrier Museum, and it was fabulous. And Congressman Issa left Washington just in time to get there at the beginning of the ceremony. And at the end of it, he had to return immediately back to Washington on the job. He took time out to be there. Certainly made me feel fine. I'll bet it did. I'll bet it did. How about this law you got passed? Oh, yes. I was instructed in the Fleet Air Gunnery Unit, which, VAGU, which was. I was a predecessor to Top Gun. I had been on exchange duty with the Air Force at the Fighter Weapons School in Ellis, and knew Boots Blasset, the writer of No Guts, No Glory, who had 19 killed, and brought back information, kind of updated regarding fighter tactics, and as such was the tactics constructor at Faygo. And one of my students was the first commanding officer of Top Gun, and he gives me credit for everything he learned about fighter tactics. So as an instructor, I was flying FJ-3s, which are very similar to an F-86. And one day, we only had three, so I gave them to the students, and I decided I could run the flight from F-86 to F-85. So I took a flight from the tow airplane that's bringing the tow for aerial combat, or gunnery. And so I bumped the tow pilot, and decided to fly it, and it happened to be the Panther that was doing the towing. On takeoff, it lost power, not total, but not enough to let me continue to fly, or climb, at 3,500 feet. And at the end of the runway at El Centro, where this was happening, is a crevice in a mini Grand Canyon, and a place you don't want to put your airplane. So I got rid of the tow I was towing to give me some additional distance, and keeping the gear up. And so I got rid of the tow I was towing to give me some additional distance, and keeping the gear up. And everything cleaned to extend my glide as far as possible. And I made it across this mini Grand Canyon and crashed, and the airplane broke up, and I broke 11 vertebrae and was in pretty bad shape. And so I was sent to the hospital in San Diego for quite some time. And. When they cut the cast off and so forth, I went back to flying. But with medications that were not permitted for pilots. But with the authorization of Bumid. And I did that for a lot of years, and during the Korean War as well. But I'm in Vietnam. But I'm in Vietnam. And we came back from the first tour in Vietnam as wing commander. The senior flight surgeon talked to his buddy at the medical organization in Pensacola. And they decided, hey, we want to see this guy. He's saying, gee, every time he really gets tired and kind of needing help in his 18, 20 years, he's saying, hey, we want to see this guy. And he said, gee, every time he really gets tired and kind of needing help in his 18, 20 years, he's saying, hey, we want to see this guy. And they're saying, we want to see this guy. So I got ordered to go back to Pensacola and studied. And when they got through, they said, there are changes in your body. You no longer need all this medication. Stop taking it and go about your business. Well, not that easy. Your body doesn't transition that easily. And I was losing my hair. Things were pretty sad. And it was reviewed with new med. And they said, this can't. So they talked to Bupers, and they gave me orders, you're authorized for command and seat, naval aircraft and combat, not at the actual controls. So I'm saying to myself, how do I run an air wing in war combat and not fly? So the only answer was, I've got to be airborne an NFO. And I ordered myself. I ordered myself to go to the NFO school and get designated and went about my business in combat in the back of an F-4 Phantom. And I did that throughout until I was relieved. And I went to Washington as APO 5A, working for the Senior Naval Aviation Command. And as such, he's the head of the board with other senior commanders. Navy, Marine, Admirals, Generals, that make policy. And they met in San Diego. And my job made me Secretary of the Board. And item one, NFOs, what do we do about them? Example A, Captain Williams, two sets of wings. I knew some of these guys. And we get into it. And I say, what is there about the job that precludes? It precludes command. And I said, frankly, can't think of a thing. In several cases, it was enhancing. Well, we worked that over and learned that it was against the law. Title X prevented command for NFOs. And there weren't any senior enough to really worry about it. But they'd probably ended their job as a lieutenant commander in no position. And beyond that. So I had learned about Title X before when I was head of promotion plans in Butte-Purse and had gone to Congress and changed the law. So we did it again and got authorization to get rid of that law and equal opportunity for NFOs. Probably the most important thing. We've got. Four stars. Admirals and generals, NFOs. Wow. Nice work. Mm-hmm. Nice work. I'm very proud of that. Should be. Mm-hmm. Well, sir, would you like to end this with a prayer? Yes. Do you want to lead it? Yes. Perfect. Hmm. Dear Heavenly Father, divine God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, I come before you with great gratitude. My preservation. You told me that you loved me. You were there, Lord. I gave you time after time. You gave me a wonderful woman as a life partner, friends to see me through troubled times and good times. I praise you. We praise you. We thank you. You look after our country. God bless America. And to you, all credit. Amen. Amen. Amen. Captain? Yes, sir? It was an honor. Thank you kindly. Thank you. This is a noble event. I just love being here. It's kind of a hallowed room. I love having you. And a gun. Ha, ha, ha, ha. You like that gun? I love that gun. No matter where you're watching The Sean Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment, and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, head to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and leave us a review. and packs as low as just $1. Download PrizePix and use code MVP to get $25 instantly in bonus packs when you buy your first $5 pack. PrizePix. Run your game. 18 plus eligible areas. Terms apply. Collect responsibly.