35 Emotions Explained By Evolutionary Psychology - Rob Kurzban - #1169

You are at the intersection of two things that I love. Evolutionary psychology and emotions trying to work out why we feel feelings what's the reason for them, how did they come to be? Why is this topic interesting to you? So for me, feelings are everything, right? So our motivation is basically come from what we feel. So if we feel hungry, we want to eat, if we feel aroused, we want to do something else, if we feel jealous, we want to take whatever. So like, the most interesting pieces I think of human behavior, which is what I study, is driven by our feelings. And then the evolutionary piece gives us a way to understand them. So for me, it's really exciting. We have a really good way to understand all of the things that cause us to do the things that we want to do, what could be more interesting than that. Why is the evolutionary angle interesting or useful when it comes to looking at feelings and emotions? I would say the evolutionary point of view is going to be critical for studying anything that humans do. We're an animal, we're an ape, just like every other species on the planet, we have an evolutionary history. If you want to explain and understand the behavior of any organism, I mean, it'd be weird to study an ape or a mongoose without the theory of evolution by natural selection. So I just apply, and people let me apply those ideas to humans using the same lens, Darwin's, the evolutionary natural selection. It's not really an optional part of the analysis. You have to ask, well, you've got this brain, it's super complicated. What's it for? What's it trying to get us to do? Why do feelings need to feel like anything at all? It's not obvious that there needs to be a phenomenology to stuff. A thermometer is able to detect heat and it doesn't seem to be feeling any kind of way, so why couldn't the brain just change our behavior without giving us the subjective experience of it? Yeah, no one knows. I mean, I got here today in a driverless rainbow and it sort of, in some sense, it sort of wanted to pick me up, but my child wanted to make a ride on red, which did, by the way, very safely, just to say. And so I think a waymo and AI, someone tells us there's something that you can get from artificial systems. Functionally, at least. Yeah, that's functionally. But for whatever reason, biology is like that, you put a bunch of neurons in there, they get really complicated, and then the miracle occurs somewhere in there, and then the magic happens, and it feels like something. My sense is that it's just for organisms like us, and probably other words, there's just no other way to do it. I do want to add one piece, though, which is that we're complicated. And so, if you have an organism, that's kind of afraid of a bear over there, but it's also hungry, because there's something you'd over here that has to be able to make a decision about which are those things to do. Now, the waymo, I think there's like some number, right? But for us, it's like how strong is the fear? How strong is the hunger? And that sort of arbitrates, which one we do. So maybe the sense that we have is like a way to figure out of all the different things that we're kind of motivated, which one should I do right now, which is the priority. So it's a kind of like a way to check among the different pieces, which is the biggest one. That's interesting. So because a thermometer just has one thing to do, the waymo, to some degree, also just has one thing to do, it needs to get from here to there, you, they need to be less complex, and they need to wait competing priorities in less of a complex way, especially the thermometer, right? Which is a single use device, but for humans, we need to be able to work out which of this 15 things that I'm feeling right now is the one that I need to triage to the top in order to keep the patient, which is me, going in the direction that I want to to survive and reproduce. Yeah, totally. I need you some common currency. Like what is three units of hunger before you? It's a fear. How do you compare this? Thanks. And so I think consciousness, this experience we have is that common currency. It says, oh, it's this important. You got to do it somehow, because again, to get more complicated, this problem becomes bigger, bigger, get for the waymo, which main thing is not to get into an extra, and then the second thing is to get you where you're going, and then there's some other things, make sure they got the music right or whatever it is, but we've got all these different things, so you have to have a clearing house. What is the measurement and motivation language that you use when it comes to feelings? I remember when I was a graduate student, I went to a lot of different talks. This was by a, I think it was a physicist and he said, look, everything that exists exists in some quantity. And at first, I thought, oh, that's obvious. I thought, oh, that's that's super deep, because in psychology, we talk about the stuff, but we never talk about the quantities, like no one's talking about a unit of jealousy or a unit of hunger, really. So when I talk about the measure, motivate the first part of it is that for organisms to respond adaptively in their environment, they have to measure something, whether some insight, how much glucose do I have in my blood, or something outside, like how close is that bear? There's no, there's no bears in this to you, but just to say, you'd have to measure like, what's the danger? And so if you're going to build a computational mechanism, which our brains basically are, a thing that processes in for me, the first stage has to be to measure something, now it could be complicated, right? So jealousy is measuring something about is that person to risk to me, or maybe, you know, admiration is measuring, is that someone I should, you know, kind of look to for advice and for guidance, and so on. But it's going to measure something, and then the next part, motivation, once you've got the measurement, you better do something with it. So again, if from the evolutionary point of view, the information isn't useless unless it does something in terms of changing your behavior, either inside or outside. So I really like this idea that emotions measure something in the body or outside the world, which is going to be adaptively relevant, and then get you to do something. And that makes sense, right? So there's an opportunity out there. I got to figure out if it's a good word or not, and if it's big enough, then I should do it. So I find that language really helpful. I also like it because it can get everything from hunger to awe, to jealousy, to contempt, to the feeling that you've seen someone before. So the same language, the same measure motivate kind of system gets you from all the low level kinds of feelings to all the high level ones, and that I find very elegant. Are there some emotions that are more measure and some that are more motivate? Well, I think that they all have both components, but for some, the measurement is just very straightforward. Like I said, I think thirsty or the feeling you've, you know, got to go to the bathroom or something like that. That's a pretty simple set of measurements. Whereas other measurements, like I said, for jealousy, they're really complicated. So I'd say they all have both components, in some sense, they can't work without both components. You don't know what you're going to, you don't know what you have to do unless you can measure something. And then you have got to act in the world. If feelings are essentially measurement systems, how often do we misunderstand what they're measuring? I think pretty often, and I think that in the modern world, it can be especially difficult. Right? So let's take envy. I think in, you know, back in the day, you were around very few people, right, much less than today. And more or less, everyone around you was someone who kind of was someone who you might be able to see as a predator or so on. But now with all the platforms, the kids are on Instagram and whatever else it is, you see all these people who have, you know, great success, a lot of friends, the kinds of things. So your envy system is like an overdrive being folded to thinking that, you know, it would be a good idea for you to try to get what they have. Even though maybe doing that wouldn't it be in your best interest or maybe if it isn't even feasible. I think we offer the same thing again to go back to the road example, right? So we get anger, angry, when let's say you got caught in traffic. And in the past, that would have been really useful because you probably can see that person again. So you want to tell them, don't do that. I'm going to be, I might, you know, I'm going to, might hurt you if you do that again or something. But now you're never going to see him again. So the anger doesn't do anything useful for you, but we still experience it. Does it mean the measure and motivate thing? Does it mean that unpleasant feelings need to be unpleasant in order to work and that pleasant feelings need to be pleasant in order to work? The reason that they feel that way is to contribute to the motivation. I think so. There's really sad, very interesting work on the sensation of pain. So there are people who either don't experience pain or don't experience the motivation to get rid of it when they have it. And those people, sadly, they don't live very long because they don't make the adjustments they have to do to stop whatever damage is occurring, right? If you didn't hate having your hand in a fire, you wouldn't take your hand out of it. And then now you're your hand would burn. So I think for what, you know, I think it does. I think the way that our brains work, if it's not unpleasant, you're not going to take the appropriate action and the same thing. So it's sort of an un, it's an unfortunate effect just of the way the nervous system is wired up. You created a taxonomy of five kingdoms, five different groups that emotions go into. What's interesting about the body maintenance one? What do you find uniquely interesting about that? Well, first of all, I should say, I'm not a feeling-yes, I treat all feelings equally. I don't have favorites. I love them all. But I mean, there's all sorts of interesting stuff that I think parasites are super interesting. You know, here we are in the modern era, and yet the biggest event in our adult lives was this one parasite that plunge the world into chaos for a couple of years and amid the COVID pandemic. And so one thing I always thought was interesting was itchiness, right? So there's, you have all these really fancy things on the surface of your skin that detect when there's something on there. And for the most part, you know, that's on there because there's little insects that might do bad things to you. They might put holes in you or they might lay eggs in you in the case of butterflies and so on. And so you have to have little defense systems. And so there's like an interesting kind of way in which you need to defend yourself against, you know, all the things that are coming to eat you or exploit you in some way. And I think itchiness is sort of one of the more interesting ones. Isn't it crazy that everyone's had the experience of sitting on a plane and feeling an itch and going, "Actually, I'm going to lock in." Like, I don't need to, my body's not going to tell me what to do. I know that I don't even need to worry this. And it just crescendos and crescendos. And sometimes it falls off and then sometimes it doesn't. And you're like, I can't, this is so compelling and I can't think of anything else other than my whole body screaming at me. This thing that isn't painful, right? We know that it's not pain, it's distinct from pain. It's not like someone sticking a hot poker in the side of you or stabbing you with something sharp, but it's just as captivating with a different flavor. It's kind of facet. It's like crazy how smart our systems are to be able to distinguish that crazy to be 'cause it could be socially transmitted. So like this conversation, if people are watching it, they might start to feel itchy, whether I'm sorry, one. But you could feel itchy just because people are talking about-- - Tens of thousands of people in unison, itching themselves right now. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is kind of interesting, right? But that might even, you look, evolutionists that call this often get criticized for telling stories or whatever, but it seems plausible to me that if other people are itchy, there just might be things around that you haven't detected yet that are kind of crawling on you. Maybe this is a time to be a little more vigilant. You know what I mean? Like, could be, ah. What about yawning? And why is that contagious? - Oh man, that's a hard one. Yeah, there's like, there's a pretty good paper that came out a number of years ago, which listed 20 different possible explanations for yawning. I will say this, we know other critters do it, so it's not just a human thing. We do know that there's some social transmission. We do know that it gets a additional oxygen in there. Maybe you're getting ready to do so. I don't, I don't, I don't. - It's a messy one. - It's a messy one. I just wanna say, one of the things I did, you know, when I was trying to work on all of these different feelings was, I'm reading on his papers and like, there's so many feelings for which, as you recently as five people are saying, there's not enough research to answer this question. There's a very little research. I'm like, what do people would do it? - You're telling me that the yawning field is horribly underfunded. - I think it is underfunded. - You need to make yawning great again. That's what I think. Okay, what about the need to poop? - I thought you might be, I might thought you might be fishing. - Talk of my list. - Yeah, super, super interesting one. I mean, as we know, everybody poops. Any organism that takes them, you know, stuff and then has to get rid of it. They're gonna have to poop. And so, yeah, there is this adaptive problem, which is you wanna poop kind of, you want optimal pooping. So you don't wanna just poop anywhere, right? Especially if you're a creature that might be stock 'cause then you're leaving evidence in a lot of species, including ours, pooping year, where other organism, their group that you shouldn't do that, just viewers take that take note. So you wanna kind of poop when it's necessary, but not more often. You have these cool sensory systems in the rectal area that's measuring sort of the pressure on that tube, the intestinal tube. And as that pressure goes up, that's what the measurement is. Basically, how much pressure is there forcing that tube to get bigger. And that pressure leads to, that's the measurement. And then the motivation is to poop and then you do the pooping by releasing a little valve kind of thing that opens up. And so, it's a really well designed system, which isn't that surprising 'cause it's ancient. Like that, there's been millions and millions of years for the pooping system to get debugged by evolutionary natural selection. So now, we are very good at pooping. - Would that explain a little bit of the need for privacy and shame that people have around pooping? That they know they're uniquely vulnerable during the act? - Yeah, we're not the only critters. So there's so-called latrine behavior. There's organisms that-- - latrine behavior. - latrine behavior, yeah. Not my term, but wonderful. Where, yeah, there's a spot that they go. It's away from the group and then they do the thing because the thing about poop is that it attracts parasites. Same thing, because the poop can't defend itself. It doesn't have immune system. And so parasites come in there like if you get a nice meal or whatever you hang out. And those parasites are bad for you and for you. So you sort of want to keep the poop else where you also if you can, you can bury it. This is why, so those of us with our canine friends, you see the little poop, yeah, the little flick thing, which is a little residual behavior. But that's a well designed system. It's cool. It's telling, oh, only poop when I have to. And then what, oh, I should go over there to do it where everyone else is done and then screw it away. - What about nausea? - Interesting one. So again, it's all parasites, right? So the thing about nausea is that if you are nauseous long enough, it motivates throwing up. And the nice thing about throwing up or vomiting is that if you do have a lot of parasites in your digestive system that gets them out. And it gets them out without having to go through the whole two, which takes a while. And so the cues to nausea are things that you've been poisoned. It's interesting because a lot of people talk about motion sickness in this context. And the thing is a lot of times when you've got parasites on boards, or if you've been, you have a toxin on board, is it an effective vestibular system? It affects your. - You feel dizzy as well. - You feel dizzy. And so there's a mismatch between what your eyes are seeing and what your body is feeling, right? So the same thing that happens when you, let's say walk downstairs and moving boat. - Fucking nightmare. - That's the worst. Yeah, do not try, do not try. And so the one hypothesis, which might not be true, but the main one is that your system is saying, look, if my senses don't agree with each other, that's a pretty good signal that I've either got a toxin on board or like there's some parasites or whatever, and I should get rid of it really quickly. And so because that's what they do, they mess with your perceptual systems. And so the same thing is happening with motion sickness. You've got, here's my vision is doing this, my body, my vestibular system is saying I'm doing that. That, they don't match, so let's just be safe and just get rid of whatever's in there right now. - I remember New Year's Eve 2016 maybe 2017. I was working in Manchester running one of our nightclubs and my business partner's first kid, it had his first birthday party a couple of days before, unbeknownst to us, nor a virus was running rampant, 24 hours stomach bug. And I text him and I'm saying, how's Newcastle going, 'cause he was looking after that event, I was done in Manchester. How's Newcastle going? He says, I don't know, I'm in the disabled toilet. And I was like, okay, well unlucky for you, but I've got Manchester, it's gone really well, we've sold out, everything's great. And then 10, 10, 30, I started being really catty and short with everyone around me. I was like, just, tusks unnecessarily brussks with everybody. And I was like, took myself to one side and was like, I had a little word with me. And I was like, what the fuck are you doing? Like it's New Year's Eve, you sold out, you're in Manchester, it's a cool adventure. Like just enjoy, then what are you doing? There's something such a dick. And then I started to sort of feel a little bit heart and a little bit sort of sweaty. And then there was like a cold feeling in my stomach. And I was like, connected the dots and thought, I was with him, he feels sick, his wife feels sick. He's in the, oh shit, I'm 150 miles away from home. This is now a Faustian bargain. If whether or not I open the taps here or try and hold it in until five in the morning, once I'm driven back to Newcastle, which I tried and then exploded as soon as I stepped through the door into my own house in Newcastle. But yeah, that was like so interesting to me, this weird cascade of emotions, of sensations, maybe felt a little bit short and maybe like I didn't want to be around people and like I was being like, protective of me somewhat. And then I was distancing myself and then I felt a bit heart and then my stomach felt cold and then I felt dizzy. And then I felt sick and I blah, blah, blah, blah, all the way around. Yeah, lots of interesting parts of the store. My favorite was the conversation with me, which this very self-aware thing, like why am I being a dick? I think a lot of people should stop every now and then and say, huh, am I just, what's going on here? But the other piece goes back to your very first question, which is we've got these feelings, but we don't always know exactly what their origin is. I don't know, have you ever been like on a hike and there's like a, you're at a canyage something and all of a sudden you sort of feel afraid? And I have the sense that this is residual like a little thing in our head somewhere that says, man, if you're in the low ground and there are people who could see you but you can't see them easily, like that is a bad spot to be in. I mean, obviously right now when you're in a natural forest, no one's going to like throw rocks on you or something like that. You're not going to be ambushed in the middle of your assembly. But I'm just saying, I sometimes get this weird, like just a little bit of a funny feeling. I guess my point simply is, like there's all these different feelings. Like you're on my sick, am I just being a dick? I don't know. That we have to kind of figure out. What do you think about claustrophobia? Yeah, so I mean, I should, in many of these things, I have to say, most of this stuff comes from male experience. So I started experiencing claustrophobia late in life and I discovered that when I was inside cave, which was not the best time to discover, right? So here's what I think, and I think this is sort of supported by people like Randy Nessie and others. Right under the show. Is that right? Yeah. I mean, he did some of the pioneering work in all of this. If you go back and listen to that episode once they're done with this one, evolutionary psychiatry, good feelings for bad feelings. It's a great book. Unreal. Yeah, really good. Nice primer as well, to car garage with your one. Yeah, people should definitely go out and bike get both. Yeah, for sure. Agreed. Yeah, so I think the challenge that evolution faces is sort of getting your dial set, right? So you're born into a world, should you be especially credulous, because everyone's really nice, or should you be really skeptical, because you're in a world of which people are going to be deceiving you. And as you go through life, you've got to set these dials. How much should I feel of this? How much should I feel of that? And then there's some genetic noise and so on. And I think those dials, let's get my set sometimes. I think in my case, you should be afraid of a closed basis, because you don't have so-called prospect and refuge. The best place to be. Prospect and refuge. Yeah, it's a fancy way to say, I can see what's coming, and I can escape, right? Oh, very nice. Yeah, super interesting. And I would say, in a box, you have neither of those, right? You can't see anything, and you're not going anywhere, right? So I'm going to guess that a closed space that's dark would be worse than a closed space that's light. Absolutely, because you lose prospect, right? So yeah, well done. Interesting. Plus, is this why we like big vistas? The house that's got the beautiful view is more beautiful than the house that backs on to a gray brick wall? I mean, we don't know the answer, but I would battle a wager a lot, that's right. If you look at pictures of landscapes, just what do people choose to paint? Expensive. Expensive. Again, the viewer can see what's coming. If there's a bear, if there's a lion, if there's a herd, whatever it is, or prey animals, whenever I can see them. And so the more prospect you have, I think that's why I'd be like sort of being high up, because we can see all around us, also less vulnerable up there. It's harder to whatever. So I think we have these ancient adaptations for these two things. And claustrophobia, sort of like, I've got neither of those. And if you, if your dial is set up high enough, then you really don't like them. Yeah, my ex-girlfriend and me were doing the Edinburgh Dungeons tour. and I'd. was being a good boyfriend, I thought, "Hey, I'll take us on a trip, wouldn't this be lovely?" And just the description of the ticket evidently didn't portray what the experience was going to be like, sufficiently. And our journey through the Edinburgh Dungeons was about 15 feet, and then very quickly that's not going to happen anymore. 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Right now, you can get a free sample pack of elements most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwiston. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwiston. What about disgust? Nausea, I guess, adjacent to disgust, but different. What's going on with disgust? Nausea, I think, is the motivational piece of disgusts the whole thing. Again, the pathos, he feels like this is the pathogen disgusts. The world out there has all these different pathogens, and we have particular spots that are vulnerable to them, right? All the different holes in our bodies, and so disgust is measuring the risk of pathogen preference. Let's think about what do you find really disgusting, like the smell of feces, right? That's where the organism, like little maggots, like that's a really good indication that there's some kind of parasites in there. The smell of decaying flesh, people really don't like that, and so that's measuring what is the probability that there's some pathogen nearby? And so what's the right design if there are, is to go away, right? So we tend to want to distance ourselves, we're motivated to put some space between us or if it's on us, we very quickly want to get rid of it. Even the disgust face says that little tongue as if you're expelled. What's going on? I think that's an example. My former colleague, Pam Paul Rosen, I think, his idea, or it might have been Darwin, Darwin Rosen. This idea that the tongue is sort of like, if you ingest something that might have pathogens, it has the cues that they're pushing it out. You're pushing it out. And I suppose as well, if I'm worried about maybe flies getting into my eyes, I'm closing up. It's almost as if I'm making it distancing myself from it. Exactly. So all these defenses against pathogens and they all act in this coordinated way, I think disgust is super fascinating. People also like disgust because there's the sexual disgust part two, right? Yeah, but people that are grossed out by sex, or situations that cause you to be grossed out by sex. Typically, we would think, wow, survival and reproduction, explain to me why being ever repulsed by a sexual opportunity would be a good idea. But it obviously is. Well, if the other person is closely related, it's often a bad idea, right? So the main, the rest of our staff, right? So people who were raised with someone, they find just the idea of sex of them, this is Deb Lieberman's work, excellent research on this. Yeah, from the show, excellent research showing that the people who you raised with, even if they're not related, but as long as they're in the same spot at the same time, you get, you're disgusted by the thought of having sex with it. Have you seen her work? Is it Thai or Filipino families from a particular religious subset that the parents of young boys would find the future wife at one or two years old and then raise the two together as a family? Hey, this is like the ultimate arranged marriage. You grow up together, you learn to be together, they didn't realize that you were going through the western mark window. Even though you're not genetically related, you're basically reinforcing every single cue that causes that to be. I would love to see what the outcomes of those marriages work, because I would imagine that you'd end up with a hugely declining birth rate. Even if you had all of the cultural pressure to stay together, maybe divorce isn't something that's widely accepted. Like, hey, you need to have sex with your sister, who isn't your sister. That is, I mean, in the privacy of your own home, that's a, I'm not only child side, I'm speaking entirely theoretically here, but yeah, that's a big hurdle to get over. That is a big hurdle. I am not only child, and yes, I can tell you, it is the most disgusting. It is the most disgusting thought ever to have that it's horrible, and I agree that probably the prediction would be, it's very difficult to get beat. This is, of course, the same thing happened on the Israeli kibbutz team. They were also raised together. So what, what? The kibbutz in Israel. So it's sort of a setting in which people are raised in a group of kids. The same age kids, they all start to get into a group, and they get older together, and they learn from each other. But the same thing happens with parents who want them to pair up, because that would be nice. But they've been raised together, and like, hey, I don't want to, no, that's not, it's gross. No, thank you. It is, I've said this before, I've said it to derrily, I think my first question to her was, why don't you want to have sex with your sister? And she gave a wonderful explanation, but it really is for me, as an only child, it is so theoretical. I understand that people have that emotion, but I can't, I can't like manifest it inside of myself. I wonder if other only children feel the same. And there's obviously situations that I could imagine having sexual disgust in, but like incest disgust, I can't, I can't bring it online. Like I can't think about what that would be like, because I've never had to develop that particular response. You know, like, humans are able to move their ears, I think, but the muscles are, you can't, well, just a little, you got something going on there. And it's hard, impressive. But if you atrophy, if you don't do it enough, then it's completely, that is kind of the physical equivalent of the emotional tool that I'm lacking. Yeah, I told you. I mean, I think there's a lot of that where if you don't use the development, I mean, language is kind of like that. Like you could speak Thai or Tagalog, right? You have, but you grew up in an environment where you, whatever, whatever this language is that you speak. Beautiful Queens, King's English. Thank you. Yes. Exactly. There we go. Thank you. But yeah, you just didn't have the right cues as you were growing up, but I think I think some of our emotional systems are like this that they only start coming online. I mean, I have some of that too. Like there's certain emotions that I don't seem to experience like, particularly in the context of moral condemnation, people get really bent out of shape about a lot of different, you know, drugs. Like people get really bent out of shape about, for example, drug use and they seem to have a very visceral reaction to it. And maybe it's part of the discuss system. I don't really know. I just feel like I just can't make myself care someone's getting high in the privacy of their own home. Don't get me wrong. I mean, you know, there's problems with drugs and society. Yet I'm just saying the thing itself, I'm like, okay, I just want to smoke a giant. It wouldn't be adaptive for everybody to have the same level of intensity around closed spaces. Because if that was the case in a 30 person part of 150 Dunbar group tribe, that would mean that nobody in the entire group could ever go into the cave. But if everybody had an aversion to substance use, that would mean that everyone would be morally condemned for trying something new and then maybe you wouldn't find a new salve or medicine or something. So this is why not only are you split testing different emotions to say, oh, maybe this one's a bit more effective at keeping you alive. This one's a little bit less effective, but also when you spread it across an entire group, you actually end up with different capacities that can be given in different portions. I like this argument in the context of personality psychology and where people have made this right. So yeah, it's good to have some extra roots out there or some people who are adventurous because we need someone to go over there. But we so that might retain some of the genetic variability in there, so it doesn't get all homogenized could be. I mean, these things are. If you psychopaths as well, you want to send them on a longboat to Linda's farm to go and pillage and bring back some stuff and not have a ton of PTSD, probably adaptive. I mean, not not so, I mean, you know, pretty interesting that there's always a sort of background level of psychopaths and. They've survived. Yeah. They've survived. Interesting. Yeah, I think, I mean, look, this study turned out to be false. No, so fucking gutted when it turned out to be false. It was an episode that I didn't get to release because unfortunately it wasn't quite right. But I learned about a supposed to actually this is probably one of the reasons that I shouldn't have fucking released the episode because the study was completely confabulated. But symbolically it's correct. So the fake study was a group of people are brought into a study area and classically the actual study began before the study began. As people were waiting in a office waiting room, a computer over the far side began slowly leaking smoke out. Just a small amount of smoke was unfurling from this particular computer. Beforehand, each cohort of people had had their attachment style assessed. And you had a relatively equal mix of anxious avoidance and secure. And the argument was that was put forward in the studies on average, the anxiously attached people noticed the smoke before anybody else. But the avoidantly attached people were the first ones out of the door and the securely attached people were the ones that were last after and sorry, it was second last and then the anxious people were like, "Oh, can I leave? Should I leave? I don't really know if I'm allowed to." And whether that's true or not as a study symbolically, I think it really gets to, "Ha, why would anybody want to be avoidantly or anxiously attached?" Well, if you're angry. And you're sort of constantly looking, checking, working out what's going on. You're going to pay attention to things that you become an early warning system. You would make a fantastic detective, but probably a quite a bad SWOT officer who needs to be maybe a bit more decisive, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I think again, going back to Randy Nessie's view on anxiety, right? So like he uses this example of a mouse who doesn't get anxious when there's cat urine around or something like that. So like most if you're a self-respecting mouse, you should feel afraid if you get some cue that there's a cat around, but then there also might be some advantage to it being a bit more of a brave mouse, you know, into certain contexts. And so again, you can retain a certain amount of variability in the genome for this variation and anxiety. So yeah, I mean, that's the thing about evolution is that yesterday is probably a lot like tomorrow, but not necessarily. So there's always going to be a little bit of, you know, give in terms of what the right setting is. And so you're going to see, you're going to see that it varies a fair bit. Anxiety kind of the buzz word emotion of the last decade or so. What surprised you in your research about anxiety? Well, I mean, like everything else, this turned out to be complicated. I mean, I think so. I don't know if John Height is a friend of the show. Friend of the show. Yeah. So he's obviously done some wonderful work on this. One thing about anxiety that strikes me about the modern moment is that social media has put us into something of, you know, like a fish bowl because our actions are constantly being broadcast, you know, either by ourselves or by others. And so if you're a social creature, which we humans are and you, whatever, like the biggest threat for the most part for humans is our humans. And what they think of us and so on, and so there is good reason to be more vigilant in a world in which you're constantly being observed because the state is about reputation management. Exactly. Ranging your reputation. So who, you know, who are you with? And what am I doing and how am I spending my time and what successes I've had? So in some sense, I mean, I don't know if the anxious generation findings are going to hold up. They look. Bro, they're in the middle. They're in the middle of the quickest 183, 165, 147, like just the way they're doing. The replication of that, every, what feels like month, I see something that proves it, then disproves it, bunks it, then rebunks it. And I'm like, I, I'm going to wait for the cards to sort of fall. Fair. But yeah, get a little bit more ancestral for me from an anxiousness perspective, like what's happening approximately? What's happening ultimately? Like what's going on? Yeah. So I think, so anxiety is basically this, I think of it as fear for the future. So like, there's going to be some danger down the road, and I need to be able to address it. And the first thing I need to do is sort of measure it. So how likely is it that so public speaking, right? So before people go public speaking or do a podcast, they often feel anxiety. Why is because you're about to be in a context in which for this one, millions of people obviously be viewing it. And that's going to have an effect on your reputation and other kinds of things. So it is actually useful, potentially, to think about, okay, well, how should I behave, what kind of hand motion should I use? And questions would be asked. So it's leading me to strategies to help mitigate whatever that danger is or what the opportunity. And so anxiety, if it's set too high, if you're constantly afraid about everything, then it, yes, you could have paralysis. But a little again, going back to the mouse case with the cat, like a good design should be to anticipate where are the dangers about to lurk in my future. And what can I do to mitigate them? Should those things occur? Momentous just made one of my favorite products significantly better and $50 cheaper. They have reformulated their sleep packs with a better and more research back form of magnesium, making the new formula even stronger than before. I have taken these things every single night, whether I'm at home or on the road. And it does make a genuine difference. 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Why not just have anxiety at the maximum all the time, surely that would mean that people are prepared for the future even better. That would mean that they've got an increased likelihood of not being surprised, they're going to come across as someone that knows what might happen, what's the reason for not overshooting anxiety then. And the answer to why not always, almost every case is my favorite economic concept, which is opportunity cost. There's always opportunity costs. So every cycle that you're spending on anxiety, yeah, there's some benefit to particularly the future. And there's something you're not doing, right? There's something you're not thinking about, there's some actually not taking. And so eventually you've diminishing returns, like if you think about public speaking for three years before you do the thing, that's three years of life you've lost just so you could think about what we're going to have to do in the podcast. So you have to balance those costs and benefits and that's again, going back to the consciousness thing. That's the trick is that there's all these different priorities. And so there's no, it's almost never going to be the case. I mean, unless you're literally running from your life from a bear or something like that, then literally just forget everything else, like that hundred percent. But every in all of their cases, there's always opportunity costs. There's always something else you could be, you could be doing. And so that's some point that additional anxiety is not as useful as something else. Do you think it would have been more adaptive to have been more anxious in the past than now? I mean, I really am a little bit of a panglos, you know, this as it were. Like I think evolution is an incredibly powerful causal process. And I think we arrived at a point where our dials are set, honestly, pretty good for the ancestral world. Now again, in the modern world, we've got all this weird stuff. So those dial settings are strange. But I think my default is to say evolution does a pretty good job. So probably we have about the right amount of anxiety under, again, especially if we were living in a normal everyday hunter-gatherer context. But again, the modern context is weird, right? We're around strangers every day, like in the past, I don't think we would have been around strangers every day. And so like, I mean, for me, just walking around the streets of Philly, I'm sure there's a certain amount of background anxiety because again, like I'm around people, I don't know. We were all of these people. I'm not sure if they've got my best interests or heart. Yeah, I think this is one of the battles that smart, reflective, you know, curious, internally curious people have, which is, huh, I understand maybe, especially after listening to you and people at Randy Nessie, I understand why these emotions exist. I also understand that the past seemingly was much more predatory and uncertain than the current moment is, and this leads to attention because the story that we tell ourselves about our concerns and our anxieties and our fears and worries almost always doesn't come to pass. And maybe that would have been true in the past too, but like they literally could have been a fucking famine 300 years ago that could have wiped you and your area of, forget 3,000 years ago or 30,000 years ago, right? So what people are kind of stuck with is almost a degree of self-judgment and shame around feeling the things that I feel, like how silly for somebody to have to admit walking down the street in a perfectly civilized society, mostly being surrounded by strangers or even just seeing some strangers has contributed to my background anxiety because rationally you can explain to yourself, that's stupid, like I don't need to do that. And yet, there might very well be this need to admit, huh, you know, like living in a city kind of contributes to this feeling of overwhelm and uncertainty and vigilance and it's not really that nice for me. And there's this tension between sort of what we think we should be able to feel and what we do feel and the fact that we've got this weird opulent, luxurious fucking velvet prison that we're in now compared with the horrible cave with the sabre two targets that we would have had a few, you know, tens of thousands of years ago. Well, that's why I think the evolution of use so potentially powerful for everyday lives because let's take something like envy and anger or two that the, when you feel something, I think the first kind of reaction to that should be asked this question, what is evolution trying to get me to do and why? Like once you understand the function of these emotions, then I think you can step back for a second and say, okay, should I give into that? And so in the anger case on the road, you're like, oh, evolution is saying, oh, you need to deter that guy from doing it again, but I'm never going to see him again. So, you know what? I can just ignore that. And the same thing with envy is like, oh, evolution is telling me I got to keep up with everyone who I can detect in my world because that person has access to better, though, you know, they're going to get the good stuff and they're going to be the king and they're going to be mates. But that doesn't actually matter because you know what, I have a home and I have people who care for me and I haven't, you know, I have, you know, all the food I need. I don't need to worry about that. So like once you understand what evolution is trying to get you to do, you can take the next step, which is saying, should I give into that or should I just sort of ignore? And then there is a challenge of ignoring it, but yeah, that's hard. What about being overstimulated? Yeah, and I think here's another case where there's a lot of individual variation. And there, I think, you know, for most, a luxury that people have these days is for the most part we can choose our environments and I think right there the trick release to know thyself, figure out what is the level of stimulation that you would like. It's tricky when you spend a lot of time like with your partner, because your partner might be someone who wants more or less. And so speaking completely hypothetically, one might have a partner who wants to have music on in the household. And then one might be someone who is more introverted and wants to have less music on in the household. So there might be a little bit of a conflict sense remiss match yellow sensory mismatch. Yeah. Which can be certainly arbitrated, very lovingly and care and effectively, but with proper soundproofing and with separate rooms. Yeah. But you know, I think that's a thing is that you you one way that we learn kind of to your point about claustrophobia is you got to figure out what are the things that you like and what are things you don't like. And then we have the luxury of manipulating our environments to accord with what about panic? Yeah, panic is super interesting. Again, there's another one, which was an area where there's not a lot of research on this, but there's this video of a net full of fish sitting on a dock. And there's one fish manages to flop its way out of the net. And then it flops its way. It's just flopping randomly. There's a fish out of water. And it flops around randomly. And then just by one random flop, it gets back into the water and that fish escapes. And I want to say this fish didn't have a plan. It just did the one thing it could do when all was nearly lost, which was just move its muscles and random different ways. You know, I suspect that when people are facing panic, the the measurement there is if I don't do something, it's all over or it's going to be whatever the, I mean some massive amount of danger. And oftentimes the only thing left to do is to move, to locomotive, whatever if you're underwater to splash around. And so I think that, and then the place where I think is really interesting is in the context of military conflict, where at certain points in history, in military conflicts, it's become clear to the participants that one side was about to win and one side was about to lose. And under those circumstances, you get this kind of panic and route psychology that sets in with all the losing side. They say, yes, we could be to hasty retreat or leave back to our ships or wherever it is. This was, I like this example. I think it was a battle marathon where, you know, the Greeks had an advantage and then the Persians had to beat a retreat, but they didn't beat a hasty retreat that they panicked. And so any given soldier just threw their weapons down and runs for the ships to try to escape. And that was bad overall, because that is not the best way to retreat is in disorder. But for that particular soldier, that was the best way to avoid the worst possible outcome. And some were cut down and some survived. But this panic psychology seems to be, if I don't do something, bad things are really going to happen. And I'm going to do the only things I can do, which often just is random movements like the fish story I started with. Hmm. Something that's maybe a little bit harder for people to understand is aesthetic pleasures. Why do we like things that look nice? Yeah. That is hard. I mean, first of all, aesthetics is very complicated. But there is this thing where we tend to find aesthetically appealing. Those things are correlated with stuff that would be kind of good for us. So like the prospect and refugees, a good example where we like those pictures, right? Oh, that would be a good place for me. I should be attracted to that sort of thing. Same thing for, you know, physical bodies that are sort of people who are healthy and shape, so on. I don't know if you know this, but people are attracted to those kinds of images. And they will, you know, spend a large time, a amount of time looking at them on the internet, on various platforms, so on. And those are like, I think of them as like little kind of like fitness, little fitness landscapes or little fitness. What do you think that the time these people are trying to achieve with that? Q motivation just observes something that's that might encourage them to emulate that in their own lives. Either emulate that or or to do the kind of thing that one does with it. So if you see a food item that meets your all the criteria right, so it's, it looks very appealing, like a ripe apple, it directs your attention to it, and then it causes you eventually often to do the right thing with it to which is to, you know, to consume it or what have you. So sort of like focusing your attention on it, and then I take advantage of that fitness opportunity if I can, right? So like some fitness opportunities are easy to take, take advantage than others. So sort of like guiding your attention to it, and then, you know, causing you to exploit it. Do you think of aesthetic pleasures as distinct from sensory pleasures? It's really, it's tough, right? To draw that distinction. I think aesthetic pleasures, I'd say they tend to be more abstract, right? So just being pet or whatever, it's a very concrete sort of a thing, whereas that's very different somehow from the arc of a beautiful play, something like that, which yields this kind of satisfaction or pleasure, but the parts of it are super abstract. Other than that though, I think they're pretty similar. They're both sort of saying, oh, this is stuff that's kind of fitness. Yeah, fitness good, right? This is like somehow this is correlated with, you know, with ancestral environments, reproductive success. So I should kind of attend to it and be attracted to it. What about people that like being scratched or having the hair played with, like what's going on there? Yeah, grooming. So some of our relatives, of course, they groom all, you know, all the time. And only some of that could be accounted for by, you know, picking little insects off or getting dirt off. My guess is, and again, a lot of this speculation, but if someone is close enough to you that they can touch you and chooses to do something which is gentle rather than hurtful, that is a really good indication that this is an ally of yours. So my sense is that these grooming, I don't know, I saw these grooming, you know, it's tens of thousands of people rubbing their head right now. Exactly. Is this sort of this, it's very, it's kind of an appealing thing to know, this is an individual who could be hurting me, but they're not. And therefore, they're probably an ally of mine. And that's sort of fitness good for me. And I think, yeah, there's got to be some grooming piece in there. So I ancestralally, this all started with some kind of like insect removal or parasite extraction from the from the skin or the fur or whatever. And then in the modern in humans, yeah, it turns into this, you know, this is a positive indication of, you know, some kind of good social outcome. This episode is brought to you by whoop. Most people treat recovery like it's optional, but unlike politicians, data doesn't lie. How you recover is literally going to determine how good your next day is going to be and whoop tracks all of it. Sleep, strain, heart rate, recovery. It's like dog the bounty hunter, but instead of criminals, it's tracking down your bad habits. All of this data gets pulled into a dashboard that actually tells you what to do with the information. And now the brand new whoop 5.0, 7 cents smaller. It's got two weeks of battery life, shows you how fast you're actually aging. It comes with hormonal insights for women managing the cycle or pregnancy or men hiding from it. Once you see the patterns, you start making better decisions. It's that simple. Best of all, you can join for free, pay nothing for your whoop 5.0 strap plus you get your first month for free and there's a 30 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it for free, try it for free. If you don't like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand new whoop 5.0 and that 30 day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join dot whoop.com slash modern wisdom. That's join dot whoop.com slash modern wisdom. Have you seen the data around the difference in pleasure from different speeds of being touched on your skin? Oh, I have not. Mark, can you try and chat GPT? This for me, what does the research say about pressure and speed when it comes to the pleasure from one person, like itching another person's skin or touching another person's skin? Basically, I think the original study was done on babies and I can't remember what it, but it's something like between two centimeters and six centimeters per second, no more than this many mutant meters or whatever. And it's that if you move more quickly than that, the whatever senses are that are on your skin, they are not detecting that you're basically paying enough attention to actually be able to pick what was needed. So you've got this vestige of perhaps the grooming, which has created some sort of boundary in which you all know, like if somebody goes really, really painfully slowly, like what the fuck is going on here? And if somebody was to go like this, the surprisingly consistent findings in the effective touch literature. Pleasantness is strongly related to both how fast some are moves across your skin and how much pressure they apply for speed. The relationship is roughly an inverted U across multiple experiments. People tend to rate gentle stroking at around one to ten centimeters a second as most pleasant. Hey, I was fucking I read this thing four years ago. I'm impressed with that with around three centimeters per second repeatedly emerging the peak, very slow movement, 0.1 to 0.3 centimeters and fast movement of over 30 centimeters per second are generally rated as less present in practical terms. Three centimeters per second is really slow, moving your hand about 12 inches would take 10 seconds. Holy shit, that's much closer to the slow caress than rubbing someone's arm. This appears partly related to tactile afference, touch sensitive nerve fibers in hairy skin. Peak firing rate is pleasant because it corresponded between CT firing. Pressure is another dimension. Soft light stroking, more pleasant than hard, heavy stroking. Speak for yourself. Yeah, just we have some, can you just say, well, what's the adaptive explanation for this? Well, I mean, I sort of point something out there. I love that sentence in there. The nature neuroscience paper found a striking correspond between CT firing and subjective pleasant pleasant. That's like that is a classic example of a measurement that is feeding into the the conscious experience. Like there we have the very explicit notion of what is it measuring? Well, it's measuring about how fast it's going along how this kind of thing and that gives rise to exactly the, that's why I like the models because particularly at the low level you can just see it, it's right there. It's right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This isn't you having some weird preference, adaptive explanation, the leading adaptive explanation is that the system evolved less for detecting objects and more for social bonding and caregiving, discriminative touch, what touch me were, how hard and effective touch, how does this touch feel emotionally? Natural stroking, caressing and grooming from social people, it's the speed that human spontaneously lose when gently stroking a partner, child or other person. Light pressure is affiliation rather than threat, that's exactly what you just said, warmth identifies another living body, reinforces attachment, infancy maybe particularly important. So I mean, one of the most fascinating things that I learned this year from Stephen Porges, the guy that has a ton of stuff around nervous system regulation, he taught me that one of the reasons that dogs and horses bond so well with humans is that the mothering frequency that they speak at to their young is the same frequency that we speak at to our young, which is why when you say, come on, here we are, let's go for a walk, you're in the same tonal range, you're in that same frequency, and that is why humans and horses and humans and dogs relate in that same sort of thing. I did not know, that's fascinating, yes, there's all this work on infant directed speech and animal directed speech, right, when you're talking, and there's all these things which are the information. Similar, yeah, the frequencies are similar, the intonation is similar. Even that kind of thing, you use that for a dog, you also use it for a horse, that's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, and the cool thing about those guys, of course, is that the dogs have been artificially selected way more than the horses a little bit way more, and you still get this parallel between the species, polyvagal theory, dude, it works cross species. What about spiciness, something that some people like, some people really fucking don't? I mean, again, there's no other ones where I always have to preface it by, there's debate about this. I don't really know, but I'll tell you the, here's the thing about spiciness, which is a little bit weird. I like the analogy of a roller coaster, so I don't know about you, but there's some roller, I love being on a roller coaster. I like roller coasters too. Yeah, but are there some roller coasters you won't go on? There are two that are like two, there are just two. It's been a while since I've been to a theme park that's had one, but certainly in the past, yes. Yeah. So, roller coasters is like, I wonder if it was just a train going like this, that's really boring. But if it was going to make this, it'd be like, that's really fun. But then once it gets to some point, you're like, I'm not getting on that. That's one, but spiciness is like this, like we like spicy, a little bit of spicy is good. Oh, this is really spicy, but then once we get past that point, that's too spicy. It's not just not fun, it's painful. In the same way, that roller coaster isn't just, you know, it's terrifying, I'm not getting on that thing. So, right, so there's like some drop off point, right? Where? Yeah. And so, the best, so, spices probably are important for, they all go about to pathogen. They seem to have some role in suppressing pathogens, both within the nervous system and in the food preparation. And so, there's this classic work, which I think is held up. You always have to sort of like wave with old psychology work, 'cause you never know to your point about that. Replication crisis is going to come for us all eventually. And come for all of us. Yeah. But there was this finding that places were more, that were warmer and wetter, so they had where parasites used more spices in their food, and that's controlling for the spices that were around. So, and the idea was, well, if you're eating more meat, and that meat is going to get parasites on it faster, because the environment, you put more spices in there, and they inhibit the growth of those. And does that actually work? Yeah. Apparently. Apparently, yeah. Pepper is the big one. And it's not a coincidence that everywhere you look around people using peppers. And in places with a lot of pathogens, they use a lot of different peppers. So, the, yeah, the, because the plants have to defend against pathogens too. So, they have, right? So, if you're, the thing of being a plant is you can't run away from pathogens. So, you have to have empty pathogen systems in you, and that's usually a chemical defense, right? So, these plants, they have these chemical defenses. We take their chemicals, put in our food, and then, so more is better. But there are, again, in different, obviously, different cultures and different individuals, there seems to be, get as much of this spicy benefit as you can. But once you get, I mean, I can, they can be dangerous, right? So, everyone knows about these stories where people take, like, a ghost pepper, and then they touch the eye, and then they're blind, or whatever it is. Yeah. And there's other potential effects that, that, that spices can have. But it does look like it's, it's, it's interesting that there's this drop off. Yeah. So, you want the most possible that you could, that you could sort of tolerate. And then, without feeling it on the way out. Yeah. I always thought, I always thought, for a very long time, that people who made the joke of, well, that's going to hurt when it comes out the other end, I'm like, dude, yeah, like, that's impossible. You digestive tract, stomach acid, all the rest of this stuff, and Nando's in the UK, which is a chicken restaurant, released a new type of sauce that I found so tasty, but it was really hard. I'm like, probably middle of the bulk of, keep tolerance, spiciness tolerance, like, some stuff fun, but as soon as you get over a limit, I'm like, if I'm sweating, I'm a hot guy at the best of times. I don't want to be sweating when I'm eating, but anyway, this, this had managed to hack sweetness and spiciness, and it hid in the spiciness, under the sweetness. And when I ended up going to the bathroom a day later, it felt like someone was holding a lighter under my ring piece. It was, it was kind of hilarious. I was like, laughing on the toilet, like, what the fuck is going on? And I'm like, I can't, apparently I can't cool this down. This hurt on the way in. And it's hurt on the way out. So there is a limit that you can get beyond. Right. And that pen is telling you there could be damage. So that's evolution's where I say, yeah, there could be, yeah, don't do that again. Did count for how tasty it was though, Rob. What about fun and excitement? I think this is, I've had a lot of debates over the last couple of years about what fun is. Yeah. What constitutes it, sex can be fun, but sex can be sexy, play can be fun, but play can be serious. What's happening with fun and excitement? I mean, again, usual cabin, no one knows, but it certainly looks like there's a few pieces in common, right? So like, then if you go into not him in animals, you see them sort of playing, it certainly looks like they're doing some fun things, right? So you get these monkeys which will climb up to the top of a, you know, tower and then jump into a little water trough. And they certainly look like they're having fun. And there's, I think a few different pieces about having fun is one, one important piece is your sort of training. So, you know, when I was a kid and I played soccer, that was some of the best fun I had when I was a kid. I was a team sports and I think in ancestral environments practicing coordinating with your, you know, your group probably was training for, you know, violent activities, whether on hunting activity or a warfare or whatever, but you're doing in a context in which you can learn and you can learn safely. And so, and you really don't want to learn lessons about how to coordinate with your troop in the middle of fight, right? That's the worst time to figure it out. So I think part of it and the evolution wants to reward you for this learning process. And so, fun is evolution is where I was saying, yes, this is a good thing for you to do. Do more. Do more of that. Keep doing it. It's doing great. And I think a lot of fun things are like that where we're either learning something or practicing something in a safe environment. So you're sort of like setting it aside from whatever the real thing is. It's, it's complicated though. I mean, because some stuff is weird. I mean, I, when I, back when I was at Penn, I had a graduate student who were working on dancing for a while. Why is dancing fun? Yeah. And I think there's some new work on this. I think he can has a paper, but there's something, yeah, it's a, yeah, it's a little puzzling, right? Like people just sort of coordinate their movements with one another and that, when there's music and there's some sort of rhythm and it doesn't seem like it's practicing for something or learning anything. I guess I'm learning something about the fact that, you know, I can coordinate with this person, but I don't really know why it's fun games. I think are fun because again, yeah, they're training you to think strategically or to think about certain, you know, whatever this kind of stuff is, this could happen in the real world. So I think it's a lot of it is training, learning, and practicing. What do you make of the music is basically sexual signaling done on mass theory? The music is as mysterious as dancing. Yeah. So the production of music and here, Jeffrey Miller, I feel like everyone's going to be a friend of the show. The show, the show. You know, Jeffrey Miller's point about this, which is that you can't make beautiful music unless you are, you know, you have really good, you have to be smart, you have to be creative, you have to. You have to have taste. And so yeah, there's some sexual signaling there saying, yeah, I'm pretty good at this. And it is a good signal because it is really hard as someone who is completely a tonal. A musical. Yeah, a musical. A disaster. I could say it's hard, right? People who do it, they're like, oh, it's just really easy, I'm like, for you, it is. And so I think there's something to that. And the way people react to musicians, right? So I think about the old videos of the Beatles and the modern videos. So losing the mind. Yeah, people lose their mind. It's like, I've got a guy in here this afternoon called Riley Green. It's the closest thing to like, like Elvis Presley, chicks fainting level stuff. I have another friend of the show, Joe Santagato. He did Madison Square Garden. And he's quite rare him and his co-hosts pretty rare in the podcasting world. Two guys who are talking about kind of bro stuff, but with an 80, 85% female audience. And he did MSG and I didn't know this because I don't have an Apple watch. But apparently your Apple watch can detect the local noise levels and can warn you if you're in an industrial park and there's sounds too loud or whatever it is. And the screams of the girls as they came out on stage were so loud that everyone's Apple watches went off telling them that they were in a daisy, a dangerous noise environment. Yeah, so there's a few things I like about that. I mean, a lot of, I mean, a lot of the story. But two things are the measurement piece. So one, the Apple watches are doing measurement, right? So in some sense, everything's always doing measuring all these things all the time. So the other piece is, yeah, you got to measure who a good mate is. And so sometimes that dial goes off. the charts, right? I think where you kind of look at their accomplishments, their physical bodies, whatever else you know about them. So you need some sort of mate assessment system, which is again, Jeffrey Miller's talked about. And sometimes that dial just goes, I think it's sort of like a super normal stimulus. You know, I think that's what was going on again in some of the whatever. Autism pornography is like this, right? So like in pornography, you get the super normal stimulus. And sometimes it's not just one super normal. It's like multiple. And then your evolved system is like, that's crazy. You know what I learned about from Dr. K who's a psychiatrist. He taught me about death grip syndrome. So guys that are not having sex with a person, but masturbating a lot, the ability for your fist, your hand to grip is way, way more than it is for any female human body to be able to grip in the same way. And these men are basically detraining their penis to be able to detect the level of pressure. I think he told me it was like XPSI is available in the vagina and 10 X 30 XPSIs available in your hand. And it's kind of this, it's a super normal stimuli, but just raw sensory data. Because nobody would say, Hey, this, my hand is sexier than that person that I'm attracted to. But just the conditioning, the straight up conditioning of this has meant that, yeah, some guys are having to literally has a protocol for detraining or retraining your penis. But precisely that reason. Yeah, no, super fascinating. And again, it illustrates this idea that you don't think about the measurement. What's the measurement? The measurement it could have been while I'm with a person who looks like I've been female. It's like, no, it's like the pressure that's being exerted internally. And just the mismatch, I'm very worried about like there's they're going to build things that exert the right amount of pressure for the right amount of time. I mean, I, if they haven't already. And super normal kegel stimuli. Yeah. And, and so there's going to be more people who get addicted to, like if you could hit the optimal, let's say, sensory, yeah. Well, I mean, look, women have already, they've, they've outstripped men with regards to this as sex toys for women. Like, you know, we talk about whatever it is, like the patronormal medical establishment, but it's the matronormal sex toy establishment. Like they really sort of speedrun finding, finding a way to pleasure women. Right. If you go into, into, into the stores, there's a million pieces of equipment having to do with, you know, referring to it as equipment is fucking brilliant. Yeah. Apparatus. It's right. It's entire racks of all the different, you know, they, they have certain frequencies. They move they vibrate. They crawl around shapes and it got colors and textures. Like there's been some research, clearly. Yeah. Yeah. Catherine Simon, where are you? Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well. You feel fine, but you just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body and that is why I partnered with function. 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What do you think of some of the best examples of feelings that are functioning exactly as they're designed but producing terrible outcomes in the modern world? Oh, I mean, well, hunger is obviously one of them. This is changing a little bit with modern technology, with the Zempick and that line. But clearly, our hunger systems have evolved in a world to take advantage of food opera. And we just keep doing it. And I think, you know, we've seen the effects on the so-called obesity epidemic. I don't take a position on the moral weight of that or though I just defer on the health stuff. But like that seems to be pretty bad. My favorite system, in a sense, it's my least favorite system is speaking of appetites. So humans have an appetite for morally condemning other people. Like we just love sitting around and saying that that person, they're bad, bad, bad people love that people. Well, that is a difficult question. I suspect it's because a lot of times when you were part of the mob that was condemning someone else, you benefit. Yeah. You, first of all, you destroyed attention for yourself, but also oftentimes you or your allies to get their stuff as one less competitor in lots of cases. It's just really good to be on the same side as everyone else. It's always good to, you know, it's like the Thin already A's when there was the revolution. You know, when bad things are happening, it's a good time to pick up the leaving. So there's always going to be some kind of stuff that you can scavenge. And so I think we're the very least be on the side of the non-persecuted. Exactly. So you always want to be on the side of the big side. And so we're evolved. I figure out opportunities particularly with other people are making more occupations and to, to be just love jumping on to that. And in the modern world, particularly with social media, but of course, even in the old day, like with newspapers and then with television, but it's just been metastasized with social media people that people just love indulging their appetite. I mean, if you look at, you know, I could say X, not Twitter, but and then blue, whatever it is. Yeah. I mean, I pulled William off a blue scout for the people that are just listening. William Costello is outside sat in the green room cook chair listening because he's a fan of and a friend of both of us. I will. But he was on blue sky and we would have these conversations. I'd be like, dude, every single time that you try and put anything that's evolutionarily adjacent on blue sky, you're getting pilloried. And then we have a conversation about it. And I'm like, man, you're, you're just voluntarily trading your own sanity here. And then when I see him put stuff out on the equivalent post on Twitter, he'll be accused of being like a blue pill, like feminist or something like, oh, you're not pointing the finger enough. Meanwhile, he's a full blown eugenicist on blue sky. Yeah. Yeah. That is a point. Right? So everybody wants to be on the accusing side. And like with these platforms, people can indulge. So I think of it as like, you know, our culture, whatever made a world in which we could indulge or appetite for food and fat and sugar and salt. I mean, I mean, then we endowed, and then we built a world in which you could indulge or appetite from rural attacks and more condemnation. We indulged that. And I don't, yeah, I think to me, that's one of the most, I mean, I have some biases in this area, but like that's one of the most toxic unpleasant aspects of the modern world is that, yeah, no matter what platform you go on, doesn't matter what you say, for the most part, that the result is a pile on. The result is a, is a tax. And the thing about attacks is that moral attacks, and I stole this from my former graduate of Peter, surely, probably not a friend of the show yet. Yeah. Yeah. Not yet. Is that, you know, attacks are like a kind of moral roulette. You never know. So there's just this morning, and this will date the episode. I guess there's a piece in the free press talking about a guy who was involved in, who was served papers. And, but, but they got the wrong guy. So it was, it was the Cornell 7 and they got the wrong person. So it was a different name. And so they served the guy papers. And so this guy got docs and then got all these death threats. But it wasn't even him. So say nothing of whether, no, the actual fact. Yeah. And so, but the, so this is a case where, you know, what people want to indulge their moral attack thing, and they've spin the wheel and it turns out they got the wrong guy. That's what happens sometimes. You know, my favorite one of these, Mark, can you search the video? It should be on YouTube. It's person who looks like Andy Noe being incorrectly identified. So Andy, I think he's still doing his thing. He was an investigative reporter. Yeah. Andy, dude, fucking brilliant. You see me like you're doing it on purpose. I don't think your argument has internal validity. bad, but maybe you're not. And then in that case, he just make his day shitty. Yeah. Yeah. You can say, I mean, I've said I've did say a cut couch technique outside. All right, what are you getting into sort of the social world? I think some of the more uniquely human emotions is some of the more complex ones, romantic love, family love, what's happening there? Family love. I don't think is unique to humans. I mean, to just come out and contribute to, 'cause I like all organisms, you would expect that. - And ship bias. - Yeah, well they've got, so like every organism has a, I mean, for mammals, mothers and fathers and whatever. And so you would expect that adaptation to care for kids, parents, and so on, the family love. That's phenomenology, I would guess, or who knows? It's probably comparable. - I mean, you're a vessel. - Yeah, it's pretty comparable. But, I mean, humans are weird in other respects. I mean, so obviously we're pretty monogamous, ish, right? - Monogamous. - Monogamous, and so there seems to be adaptations designed for monogamy rights, with this like Dorothy Tenoff called limmerant, so this like in love kind of love. I'm gonna write you a sonnet, and I'm gonna sing for you, and I'm gonna do brave deeds or whatever. That might, that could be, whatever, these other organisms were monogamous, right? So a lot of birds are monogamous, and so maybe there's something similar with two swans when they're swimming together, they might feel pretty-- - Penguins are together for life basically as well. - Barring unfortunate incidents, yeah. - They're together until one of them died. - Yeah, then. - Of a cold, horrible death. - Yeah, or a seal. - Or a seal, which is a hungry, horrible death. - Yeah, but I think for me, some of that stuff is on the human side, which is I think understudied again, is, I mean, there's not a lot of organisms that have kind of friends like humans do. So, you know, dolphins have some friends, and it looks like there's chimpanzees who sort of affiliate more with some with others. But humans, I mean, how much of our lives is dedicated to cultivating and enjoying our friendships? People who are not in a romantic relationship with, but who are allies and support us in tough times and help us practice and do fun things. And that phenomenology, I think, is very powerful, right? I mean, some of the, you know, you think about the most powerful kinds of feelings that we have, I think, and humans, some of those friendship emotions are very, very strong, as well designed to find out who our friends are, to keep track of who our friends are, to ensure that we retain those friendships. And then on the other side, as well, the betrayal, perhaps the resentment, the enemy, frenemy, ex-friends, enemy situation that you can go through. Yeah, a lot of friends can also be rivals, and that they can be specific, so they can be helpful in one domain and then hurt for another. But then, yeah, humans also, I don't know to what extent other creatures, I'd be interested if there's people who know about this, but that humans have hatred, which, who knows if that's something that-- What do you think hatred is? I think it's a design to cause you to try to get rid of, or at least minimize, the effect of people who really want to harm you or have harmed you, so that they don't do it again. So it's a deterrence psychology to-- It's kind of like social anger. It is a social anger. I mean, the thing about anger, as it seems to me, it's often very-- it tends to be a bit local. Like, I'm angry right now that you were-- that you were whatever you took my sunshine. But if you did something that before, my hatred is like long-protracted over a period of time. It's anger that's cooled, but stayed at a pretty warm temperature and kept on going. Exactly. It's got to sing. And I think it does more stuff. Like anger, I could be angry even if we're friends. Like, you could, you know, whatever you take my favorite sweater and you mop up some milk with it. That would make me angry. And I'm like, that dude lame. And then you'd be like, sorry, and then we'd be whatever. Whereas for hatred, I think, you know, the ship has sailed. Right, you know, that person is never going to help me. They're always going to hurt me. And I will do whatever I have to do to neutralize them. And then in ancestral environments, that might have been murder, whatever, something horrible. Yeah. In modern environments, it's probably different. But-- Yeah, the delineation. It's interesting around the friend thing. I would love-- there'll be some animal behavior researcher. I mean, you have, fuck, what? Closest relatives on the old evolutionary tree would just be basically existing in familial pods. So it's just kinship done, like, on mass. Right. Champs have some non-kin group members in them. But some non-humans are basically just going to be-- Do you think that does that mean that they have friends? And non-kin group members friends? Yeah, I think so, like, so in the research on, for example, a little coup d'état in chimped communities, it looks like the people who are the people. The couple of number three, number four, and number five, get together to fuck over number one. Exactly. And it sort of looks like in the lead-up to that, they sort of look like they're building a friendship. Right, maybe they're grooming. Even if they're not relative. Yeah, they're exactly. So these are non-kin-related, they're whatever. I mean, it's difficult. We don't always know the relatedness in chimps. But the other one is dolphins. So dolphins will form long-term associations of non-kin. It's male dolphins, or from non-kin associations. Now, they have a particular purpose, which I'm a little reluctant to talk about on the show, but it's mating-related with respect to female dolphins who are not always-- Oh, they forcibly copulate. Yes. Dolphin friends are for that purpose. That's what they do. They get into grangs, and then they do that. That's what they literally walk going around doing the gang thing. Yeah, I want to be very clear. I condemn this. Dolphin, the dolphin behavior is-- In no uncertain terms. Yeah, highly condemned behavior. But if you ask the question, this is why I think it's interesting to say, so what are dolphins friends for? Like, what are not? It's a function. It's a function. That's why it's for that. They're not using it to hunt. They're not using it for defense to get whatever. They're just using it for that function. That's why I gain the evolution analysis. Very specialized. Yeah, forces you to say, what exactly function are you talking about? So human friends, allegiances, alliances. I'll protect you. You protect me. I will share some food with you. If I have more than I need, you will therefore reciprocally, altruistically give it back to me. We can back each other up. If there is an opportunity for moral condemnation, you are on my side. You need to have a pretty big family in order to have a big enough group of people to take your side if there is this potential for accusation that comes-- Yeah. The opportunity to play, I suppose, as well. Especially if you're part of a family, the likelihood that you have somebody that's at your stage of development, unless you're a twin, is quite low. I guess maybe you could have a sibling that's a couple of years younger than you or whatever, but especially as you're growing up, you need to be with people, other humans, that are around about your age, because that's where you work out, where am I in the hierarchy, how strong am I? Can we do rough and tumble play? I do rough and tumble play with my sibling that's three years younger than me. I'm always going to win. So I guess that's part of it-- collective action for war, for going and getting food. I mean, it makes sense. It also makes sense, because humans are not particularly great at anything when compared with most of the animal kingdom, other than our ability to persistence, hunt, coordinate, and build tools. Well, that's a pretty good list. It is a great, not bad. It's a fantastic list, but it means that you need-- even the tool building thing. I need to-- where's the good sticks? Where are the good rocks? Have you got the sharp thing that I can sharpen my unsharp thing? Well, yeah. Social learning, totally. And I think for friendships, all of those functions are part of it. For me, the thing that stands out most-- and again, this is work my former student, Peter Scholley, is that one thing that I find interesting about human friendships when we have some research on this is that we order our friendships. You probably could say it out loud, but you know who your best friend is. You probably know who your second and third best friends are. You've got a list. And that's really helpful if conflicts break out. Because then you know who's going to be on your side. Your best friend's going to take your side no matter what against your third, fourth, and so on. And so I think all of those things you listed-- someone to play with, someone to exchange with-- although those can be done with strangers. You can play with strangers. You can exchange food with whatever. Every day, you exchange money for food. But the thing about human friends is that knowing where I sit in their friendship cute, like how close I am to them, tells me am I going to be able to count on them for support when conflict's over. So I think the alliance piece is the most important part of human friendship, but it's complicated. You used the word social learning there. What do you make of some of the explanations around emotions that they're socially constructed rather than evolved? I guess what I would say is when I look at the emotions, they just look so obvious. To me, they look so obviously like of all adaptations. So to your point about their design, I mean, you look at all of these feelings. They look excruciatingly well designed to execute their functions. Many of them have all the hallmarks of adaptations. You see them cross-culturally. You see them historically. They're the same ones. I mean, when I started doing the research on this, I was in Greece. And part of the reason I wanted to write about emotions is I'm looking at the myths, and I'm reading about the stories and the plays. And you see the same emotions in the classics. Not to mention the anxious, you see in the Bible, and you see another thing. So like through time, humans have had jealousy, and they've had envy. I mean, it's not a coincidence that, you know, it's in the Ten Commandments. That will shout out, not covet. It's like, I don't, you know, we didn't independently invent envy a million different times in human culture. And they look well designed. So what does envy do? Well, it focuses your attention on an individual who's doing better than you, and what does it does? Well, it causes you to strive a little bit harder so that you can get whatever it is that they've got. So they have all, and they look, again, they're excruciatingly well designed jealousy. I mean, here we are, Austin, David. What's the difference between envy and jealousy? So I think jealousy is specifically designed around threat to a relationship, either a friendship relationship or a romantic relationship. So it's designed to detect the threat, and then take steps to undermine that threat. So if it's an amazing relationship, maybe you make yourself a better partner. You know, maybe compose a sonnet or something like that. Whereas envy is more directing your attention to people who are doing well in some domain. So it's not really a threat to your relationship. It's just, oh, that guy's doing, he's doing really well. He's got a big house. He's got a very well viewed podcast, whatever it is. I should do what they do so that I can enjoy that success. maybe I could just undermine them if it's something like that, but it's directing your attention to sort of like opportunities to do better because there's somebody who is doing really well as opposed to, so jealousy is like defense, right? I've got a threat, got a counter, right? Envy is like a little bit more, okay, opportunity. Okay, this guy's doing better. Maybe it's a threat, but more importantly, I can learn something maybe about that person. How do they get, how do they build their following? - I guess Envy in that way is at least somewhat functional, whereas jealousy, I guess it's interesting, right? I've had this line for a long time at one of my old live shows, which was Envy's the only one of the seven deadly sins that doesn't feel good. It's kind of interesting, right? Sloth can feel goods, that gluttony can feel good, that lust can feel good. Why does jealousy have such a terrible reputation? Like if evolution apparently considered it useful enough to preserve, why does it feel so shitty? Why do we condemn not only each other, but ourselves for having it where we feel a lot of shame around our jealousy, what do you think's going on there? I mean, it's complicated. My sense is though, jealousy is interesting. In some sense, suppose I did manage to persuade other people that jealousy was a bad feeling. In some sense, I'm causing them to drop their defenses. I mean, as long as I keep my jealousy and I maintain whatever, I actually think that might be true, is some of this more, that jealousy moralizing it. - The zero sum view of jealousy. - Yeah, I think a lot about these whatever places, historically, it's a 60s, it's California, and everyone say, "Oh, jealousy is a pathology." And then the next thing, you know, that guy who's saying that is like sleeping with your girlfriend, because whatever. - You've taken your eye off the ball. - Yeah, it's okay, so I think in some cases, some of these cults, whatever are like causing others, and you see this a little bit in the intersectional competition literature as well, where you're, you know, there's an increasing throughline now about, you know, women telling other women about, "Oh, you know, your short hair looks great on you." - Take more off. - Yeah. - Beautiful, you're beautiful as you like. - You don't need to dye it. - Yeah, you don't need to. - And so you're undermining their defenses a little bit. And so I think the cultural dye, like you're gonna be careful about it, right? Like it is unpleasant, but like, it's a lot of the stuff is strategic. - You're among friends here, it's fine. - Yeah, okay. But you seem to say like it's like a little bit-- - Well, it's very unflattering. And I think that one of the problems of taking a non-evolution review is that analysis looks a lot like justification. If you don't have the evolutionary perspective, what we're talking about stuff like this. If you have the evolutionary perspective, you can almost say, okay, this is something that exists and it's something that I feel. And this is why without saying, and that's good. Like the naturalistic fallacy basically doesn't have as much place to exist. It does, this is one of the accusations that gets levied an evolutionary perspective of anything which is that analysis becomes justification. Like, I'm not saying that because dolphins do that, and that is the outcome that they get that it is good, right? I'm not making some sort of a moral claim around this. And I can also say that even though we do have these compulsions as humans, that we can have them and say that it's bad. We say that we don't want that inside of a modern society or inside of any society, like lovely. But if you don't have the evolutionary explanation, that evolutionary angle, you don't ever actually understand why the fuck it's there. And I think that hiding from analysis for fear of being accused of justifying something results in you just just being undereducated about why the landscape is what it is. Oh, totally. First of all, I agree with the analysis. I think the issue of what we condemn is thoroughly different from what we study. And there's lots of people who find that difficult to separate the two. You can't study something without condemning it. And if it's condemnable, then you shouldn't be studying it. Exactly. And so you see this in the context of the touchy issues of our time, mostly to do with sex and race. Those are the two big ones when they're sort of third rails. And so people back off from studying them because as soon as you start studying on your viewed as, oh, if you're explaining it, then you're condoning it. I find that, I've always found that argument mystifying. You're explaining it, you're condoning it. That's so lovely. I just don't understand that. And I think that the other piece is that if you are serious about trying to stop something that you think is bad, like if that's if you're serious about that, then the first step ought to be to understand it with every possible tool you have. So if you understood people's motive to do x, y, or z, then you might actually be able to fix it. You would think you're in a better position. And to the extent that you're making up reasons that people do x, y, and z, like if you said, well, people who steal stuff or they're just, you know, they want to, they just want to exert their power over another person, then, you know, as opposed to they just want the valuable thing, you might, I don't know, you might not think to lock up your valuable things anymore. You might want to say, well, let's make that, let's make that seamless, powerful somehow, whatever that would look like. I'm just saying, the explanation tells you what you're going to do to stop it. And I do genuinely believe that kind of suppressing people's study of these things that we don't like in the, I think I, I think that's a very bad thing for society to do. Yeah, I mean, look, it does sound in some ways like a, excuseing of what's going on. And okay, well, is it, by understanding what the ultimate reason for this behavior would have been for evolution to keep it about, does that mean that you are giving it a, a pass in order to happen? No, that's obviously not the case. Jimmy Carr has got this line about saying that something is too sensitive of a topic to joke about is like saying this is a disease that's too serious to treat. And I think, you know, the more callous or morally repugnant the behavior, the more that we should be looking at it. It's like, is aesthetic beauty something that's get cool to study or whatever? And could it give us really fascinating insights? Yeah, absolutely. But hatred, moral condemnation, you know, these things looking at why they exist. I can immediately see that if people had a better understanding of this, that might lead to maybe reducing it where it's not needed or people being able to regulate when it happens or somebody that gets served papers or looks suspiciously like Andy, no. You know, is able to, everyone's able to take a beat rather than being at the mercy of these things. Yeah, no, I mean, I completely agree. I think it's an unfortunate consequence of the car moment. And I think this goes back to the point about how this appetite people have for moral condemnation and moral attacks is that, you know, if you can attack someone for studying a touchy topic and it's interesting that people don't get attacked for studying diseases. I mean, can you imagine if, and maybe there were historically cases where people were attacked for trying to, you know, cure cancer or something like that. I don't know, but it's sort of interesting. Like, so this is again, feeds into this point about, I just feel like this appetite for moral attacks has done so much harm. And one of the things it does is it does of, I think to some extent, under my research that could help us understand humans, our motives and so on, which ultimately would have to be helpful, I think, for organizing ourselves and making the world a better place. Going back to the social constructed theory of emotions thing, one of the common accusations that gets thrown at evolutionary theorists is this is just a story. You know, you're constructing a very believable, but largely confabulated narrative in the present to explain something from the past. We have no way of judging whether or not this is true. What do you make of that argument? - I'll say a few things. I mean, so for me, when I think about a story, usually the way people talk about it, it's really just another word for explanation. I mean, stories are often just explanations. And then the question is, do you have a scientific explanation, which could be falsified? Or not, one of the things I did for this work was that I put all of the sources online so people are reading can look at the evidence that I marshal for each of the different fields and just go to the particular field and look at the citations, look at the end notes. I think in the future, people are gonna be doing that more. So I guess what I'm saying is like, I want to be very careful and clear about what empirical support I use to back the claims. I mean, I think also it's important to be speculative. But the fact of the matter is that every hypothesis is a story. And the crucial piece that I think is often mess is that my hypotheses, people in evolutionary psychology, we're not saying something about the past per se, we're talking about the design of some particular mechanism. So if I said to you, you know, the eye is for seeing, you'd be like, well, how do you know? Well, it's got this transparent, you know, it's got a retina, it's got this transparent lens. All these features that make it really good for that function, you wouldn't say, well, that's a story. Say, oh, yeah, that's it. The eye is good for seeing psychological adaptations are the same sort of thing like hunger. I mean, look, it's got some measurement system. It makes it good at its job, which is figuring out, do I need calories? Is my stomach full? Has it been a long time since my meal? How much blood is in whatever? And so the evidence of design is what we use as evidence for supporting a particular proposal hypothesis. No, different from what anyone else says. The only difference in the evolutionary approach is that we say, can we use what's known about humans evolutionary history to guide our guesses about what the functions are? And then we test those. So I've always found this critique weird because I feel like they have guesses. They have hypotheses, I have hypotheses. They have data, I have data, I, whatever. And the only difference is you just made your hypothesis up 'cause you said, well, social this, cultural that. Sorry about, you know, I don't want to diss anyone so to whatever, but I used a theory. And I used that theory to develop a plausible evolution of all hypothesis. And then I looked at the day to see if they support that particular proposal. So I confess, you know, I've heard this story since I started in the academy in 1993, probably before that. And I find it to be candid quite silly. I think it's a misunderstanding of the way science works. And what is happening in the field of evolutionary psychology, which is hypothesis generation and testing about function, not some story about, well, what happened for me million years ago? - Well, also, let's not forget that a lot of the hypotheses, like if you've got pre-registered research, a lot of the time, And they end up being right. Like, behavioral, it's fascinating to me that in a world of replication crises and the social sciences basically just eating shit over the last decade and a half, two decades, two of the fields that haven't had that happen all that much have been the two that are the most controversial to talk about, evolutionary psychology and behavioral genetics. Those have actually stood up really nicely. So if you're gonna point the finger, I understand that if you do the analysis, it's justification thing, if you have this anti-blank, slatist approach, it can make you feel a little uncomfortable, especially if you've got a world view that suggests inequality is something that we need to get rid of. I think everybody wants to try and have an equal society, wouldn't that be lovely? But it sort of reminds you that shit isn't fair and that the world is not infinitely malleable, that the right social policies can write all wrongs and that you can flatten the playing landscape for everybody simply through the correct interventions. That is going to be mean nasty people. Some people out there are going to misbehave regardless of what you try to do with rehabilitation or schooling or whatever because we have pretty ancient motives that you can't repattern with the correct, like scared them straight intervention or whatever. - Yeah, totally, and I think the question is always compared to what, right, like so for evolutionary psychology, I think your point is really well made when I was grad school, you know, the people who were looking at human social behavior, which we also were, but without the evolutionary point of view, all they did was stuff, and all they did, they did a lot of stuff on stereotype threat, they did a lot of stuff on the implicit association task, all this implicit racism, and they were sitting there and telling us that we weren't doing science because we are evolutionary people, and then here we are, you know, 25, 30 years later, and that stuff has completely fallen apart. It's like, you know, and we, at the time we were, we shook to ourselves, not to that, we'd say, well, at least we're not just like, you know, doing advocacy, but with some veneer of science, which is what they were really doing, 'cause that was also driven by the moralistic stuff, it's like, you know, the stereotype stuff, - This is good. - This is the stereotype, so that's bad, whatever. And then here we are, 30 years later, and I could have told them how it was gonna come out, it's like, well, my work, you know, on race, which was just about, you know, can you provide places in which people don't sort of know just one another's race? That work has held up pretty well. - Who was your grad supervisor? - It was a lead to Cosmetic and the late John Tubi, where I was, I was, yeah. - You were. - I was so lucky. - That's the Beatles of grad supervisors. Yeah, I met Jon at HBES 2023, I think, in Palm Springs, and I was horribly underqualified, and was part of a symposium. I think it was the only guy at the symposium that was cool. And I got up and I got to talk in front of all of you guys, and, you know, some of the people that I didn't know. And then, Jon came up and it felt a little bit like, sort of meeting the queen, I guess, and which meeting bus is not too dissimilar. And he's had some really nice things to say. I love the show, I really appreciate you being a platform for Revolutionary Psychology, and I think that you've done some great work, and it's a shame that you didn't get to do it. You're creating it and a few other things, and that, you know, it's the fact that he's passed is a real shame, because he would have been friend of the show. He can be friend of me, if not friend of the show. - He was, I mean, he was a wonderful man. I consider him to be, I'll say, I think it was a genius. - It's fucking so vaunt. - He was a genius, and I would say, for me, the comparison was like, it was speaking like the Oracle Delphi, because you would come down with a question, and then, you know, something you'd be thinking about, and you'd take a second to think about it, and then he would just, with his John Toobie sort of explain whether that was my Toobie impression, with all due respect, and then he would give you this answer, you're like, ah, man, you nailed it. - And what do you mean? - E.P.'s Master Yoda, yeah, correct. - He really was, Master Yoda. - Empathy, tell me about empathy, kind of interesting. - Yeah, super interesting. I mean, empathy is kind of, it has a lot, it's certainly got a lot written about it. Paul Bloom is then some nice work on it. - He's been sympathy, against empathy. And I mean, for the show, that was a friend's show, I'm gonna have to find out who an enemy of the show is. - Oh, I've got enough. - Yeah, don't be in the comments. - Okay, in the comments. Great, yeah, we'll see them in the comments. Yeah, I mean, I think for social creatures, such as us, it's pretty important to kind of be able to measure what other people are feeling, because that helps you with your own strategy, with respect to them. So if they're an ally and they're feeling sad, - It's like theory of mind type. - It's a little bit of theory of mind, but it's not just their mind, it's all of these. So I think of it as, I'm measuring what you're trying to measure. So it is a little bit of a meta thing. So like I'm, if you're sad, I'm trying to measure how sad are you and how sad are you, while you're trying to figure out how bad things are. And that can help me, right? Because in both directions, and I think this is one thing that Paul has identified. So one thing that's nice about empathy is that if you're sad, then I can comfort you. And that's good for me, 'cause you're my friend, and I can make you feel better. Maybe help you think about how to feel better. But if you're my enemy, and I have a certain amount of empathy, that is I know what you're feeling, I can make you feel worse, right? This is why torture is so effective. Is that we know what's gonna hurt, both mental and physical, right? So if I know that you are, let's go back to jealousy, the jealousy story, and I say, well, your girlfriend or partner, or whatever it is, Cindy or John or whatever it is. No judgment. I saw them with another person, then I can make you feel bad, because I know that that's gonna hit your own measurement system. So empathy is a pretty useful thing, because it helps us figure out about how to help and hurt others. Mostly we think about it in a sense of helping, right? Because empathy usually leads to. From social. Yeah, care. What do you make of the theory that empathy, in some ways, is investment advice, that this person is so down on their luck, that they will be unusually overly appreciative of any assistance that I give them? Yeah, I like to think about the question sometimes. What is the best possible thing that could happen to me in my day? And one of the things that I think about is, I'm walking along a stream, and I happen to be counting a life preserver, and Elon Musk is drowning, right? And so at relatively minimal cost, I can send a life preserver, and then he's. Anya pocket, yeah. And now, like, so, and the reason I was able to, 'cause I know that drowning is bad, and I sort of have that whatever psychology. So it is good investment, but think about other cases that we don't invest, right? So if Philly going back to Philly, you know, the fact is people go by, people who are currently experiencing homelessness, as they say, these days, and they don't. It's the people of color, of the unhoused. People experiencing being on house. People experiencing no roof over the head. Right. And so there's a person in need, but you don't help them. Why? Because they're. I think the psychology is saying, "Well, they're unlikely to help me back, either, "because I'm never gonna be able to, "or because I'm not gonna help them enough to get over." Oh, that's so far off the bottom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fascinating. The stuff we saw on caressing. Like there's a U-shaped function. There's optimal caressing in just the same way. There's optimal helping. I want to help the people, and by the way, this was again, go back to John Tubi, sort of a banker's paradox, which is you want to give loans to those who need a loan, but are gonna be able to repay it. You know, right? So you've got this U-shaped thing. I think there's paradox, yeah, that's lovely. Yeah. What about gratitude? Yeah, so first of all, really should have more of in our lives. And I want to say thank you for having me on the show. Thank you for being here. I want to do nothing else, 11.37 AM. I don't want to be anywhere else so that I'm talking bullshit with you. That's it. That don't have to be anywhere else. Yeah. So thank you for that. So I do, and I think, you know, going back to the point that humans are social, when people do nice things for you, which is usually the antecedent of granted, you want a signal, okay, I acknowledge that. And this is going to increase the extent to which I am potentially going to deliver benefits to you down the road too. So because the person who's giving you benefits, it's good to be one of the things they're probably going to get out of it. I mean, if we're friends and I help you, then that's good for me because you're better off and whatever. But another thing is there's going to be potential help down the line. So gratitude, you want to make sure you signal, look, I recognize that A, you've just helped me and B, more importantly, you generally, you're saying, I know that you go around the world thinking that I'm someone who you want to help, not someone you want to hurt or just ignore. And so you're reinforcing the cycle of reciprocal benefits and potentially alliance. And if you, this thing about what happens if you don't express gratitude, you're like, well, I'm not sure I'm going to help that guy again because he didn't acknowledge that I delivered this benefit to you. - Yeah, of course. - Right, so you sort of upping the psychological little - I can't keep it. - I didn't even notice that I helped him in this way. Yeah, I think, so I, I think a lot of the people that listen to this show in a category of people that pay attention, maybe more than on average. And that can be a real blessing because you notice things if you don't wrangle it correctly, then that can turn into anxiety, rumination, and truce of thoughts. But one of the sort of challenges there is if you don't have a good set point for gratitude, what you can do is pay a lot of small benefits to somebody like my housemate, for instance, like he might have, he might leave something out or like he leaves his hoodies around. And I'm like, I'll tend to like fold the hoodie and just put it on the desk personally because I like the environment to be tidy but also because I'm like, "Huh, like if you put it on "and it's usually a modern wisdom hoodie, "like if that looks a bit shitty, "it's not gonna be cool for him "and it's bad rep for the brand." But because he pays attention, he notices. So there is this sort of balance between how much attention you pay and then how much gratitude, and this is on both the giver and the receiver. and I think that your goal should be to have the life. level of gratitude and show the level of gratitude at the level of attention that you pay. Because if you have a mismatch with that, what you can end up doing is feeling like there's an imbalance in the resolution that you're looking at things. Well, I did this little thing and didn't that cute? Like what's, it's great. You do some grand gesture, obviously you organize a surprise for your friend. For instance, my business partner in Newtonic, he, it was his 40th birthday in the UK a couple of weeks ago and me and a couple of the other guys got together and decided that we were going to buy him and his family where his kids are tripped to lap land. Full thing, the, you know, the kids are not going to go to Kingston upon Thames to go and see Santa. They're going to go to fucking Finland and we've sorted the whole thing and flights and hotels and reindeer sled and all the rest of it and we gave it to him and he cried and it was really, really beautiful. That wasn't it lovely. That's obviously going to be something which is worthy of gratitude. He's going to go. He's going to have these memories. At the approximate, the appropriate time before, he's got four months to like, oh, us before actually having to cash in the favour so to speak. But I think what's really cool when it comes to gratitude is, oh, like, this person came around to my house for dinner and they know that I like this particular flavour of soft drink and I got, I got just one can for them in advance. Oh, isn't that cool? And I think that the small elements like that, continuing to lower your threshold for what you believe is worthy of celebration and gratitude, I think that is something that everyone can do. One of the pieces of advice that I get asked for a lot at the live shows is, I don't feel my successes emotionally even though I achieve them quantifiably or objectively. What do you think I should do to try and bring more of this in? I'm like, gratitude is great, but it's kind of hard to do. And what you can do is celebrate your friends when they achieve basically anything, no matter how small it is, is worthy of an achievement. Some balloons, a cake, a cookie, a cuddle, a fucking dinner, you know, a big party or whatever, one of my friends at the start of this year had his first album launched and I was like, I'm going to organise an album launch for you, isn't this great? And it's actually kind of a vicious reciprocal gratitude practice because if I make it plain that I'm prepared to celebrate you for something small, we're horrible at celebrating ourselves but we're great at celebrating others. So even if we can't do it for ourselves, if we do it for others, they might start doing it for us. And you end up with this, ha, yeah, I did, I did do that, complete that tour or write that book or, you know, publish that thing or whatever, like, and everyone else did it on my behalf and I'll do it for them. So I think that's kind of a way to hack this system that you can use. And this is what's great. If you understand, well, this is why we have friendships and this is why alliances are important and this is why reciprocal altruism exists. Gratitude is important, but it's kind of hard to do for ourselves, but it's easy to do for other people. And if you pay attention, you have small things, you can create this, like, feedback, positive feedback loop, a boom loop rather than a doom loop of, I'm going to do more for other people. And that's one of the ways that, tactically, I've, like, tried to put some of this stuff into practice. Yeah, totally. And I think this is an area where I'm typically pretty critical of clinical psychology. I'm not sure how much it's done for us, but this, I seem to have gotten right, which is that adding gratitude to your life really does at least my read of this literature holding aside, replicate whatever. It seems like this does make people happier, more content, calmer. And it probably, I mean, like, so evolution's sitting there and it is rewarding you for, like, we wouldn't feel the, the warm glow of gratitude if it wasn't doing something for us. And I think to your point, yeah, you got to figure out the right amount. But there's something really deep in there about relationships, which is, you know, figuring out. And this was bad to empathy. You know, what does that person care about with respect to how I think about them? So in my own particular case, I don't do it often enough, but my partner loves having, she's loves having flowers in the kitchen, like we're seeing. Dude, chicks love flowers. They love flowers. They chicks. I'm yet to meet a woman that doesn't have a day made by a nice flower delivery. And the sort of like points that I get for remembering to refresh the flowers, like, again, I don't, I know I don't do it enough. So there's the, the other thing I just want to mention on that front is that I think, I think the psychologists have underappreciated how much work economists have already done. So they went back when I was at Arizona a million years ago, with Vern Smith and those guys at the Economic Science Laboratory. They talked about goodwill accounting, which was basically a four runner of some of this measurement of gratitude. So they basically said, yeah, so people sort of keep track of the good that they did for someone else. And then they signaled to that other person, hey, I just upped your little like goodwill account. So they literally talked about it as how much goodwill do I have for you because of the things you did for me. And I just want to say I think there's lots of like work in economics, which could be mined for some of the interesting social stuff because it is sort of an underexploited resource. I think economics has got bad branding because when people think economics, they think about numbers and the way that the fiscal policy should work. But behavioral economics is one of the most robust and fascinating. Russ Roberts is a fucking animal. His entire sort of thesis around like while I think it's called wild decisions was that the book or like big decisions, something like that, friend of the show, he's fucking great. Like he's absolutely fantastic. And yeah, that I completely agree. So I guess this plays into trust and distrust that I'm going to guess. Trust is a prediction of how much I can rely on someone in distrust is the opposite. Exactly. And it's funny. You pair those two because back when I was with Vernon Smith, who was one of the co-founders of behavioral economics, they were talking about the trust game all the time. And basically that was this measurement of to what extent should I believe whatever this person is doing or saying they're going to do and so on. It's sort of a measurement of that probability and then there's probably some other stuff in there about magnitude. Whereas distrust is exactly, it's a measurement of the reverse. And so you've got to sort of on the one and it can be very helpful, right? So trust can lead to gains in trade, right? If I trust that you're going to give me your whatever car, when I give you this check today, you're going to be the car tomorrow, then we can have whatever. And of course there, you're always exposing yourself to being taken advantage of to losing and so on. So you need to have, it's tricky, right? And people make these mistakes all the time. They have too much trust when they shouldn't and not enough when they should. And those and depending on the details, the stakes can be very big, right? Yeah. I think I've been kind of fascinated by advice hyperresponders. So people that take popular or commonly held wisdom, tactical suggestions to heart and it doesn't distribute the problem with advises that it doesn't distribute evenly. The people who already have the predisposition tend to take it to heart while the ones that really need to hear it probably blow past it unchanged. And it's kind of interesting when it comes to the trust thing because you can see many situations where the modern world would say, well, look, you've got the law, you've got police, there's a legal system, there's mediums of exchange, you've got lots of, lots of reasons. But on the other side, you've got way more mobility that people can up and leave and go to another town or another city or another country. You've got a variety of ways that people can be slippery with what they do and don't take and stuff like that. So yeah, it's a, there's the stakes have been both lower than raised at the same time. Oh, totally. I think those are really good example. I guess there's all sorts of cultural ways that we have to enforce trust. I like, I like those examples, police and courts and the law and so on. But they're not, they're not going to be relevant in lots of different circumstances. So for example, you have a private chat with a close friend and maybe you make an off-color joke or something like that or you, you know, say that on a podcast or something and then they would ever sell that to TMZ or whoever would be interested. Well, the courts, they're going to say, you know, they don't care. They're going to prosecute you for breaking my trust. Yeah, exactly. So, so you trusted them by within this communication, but you're not supported. You're not backed up by the instruments of state or the whatever. Isn't it interesting that in certain situations you talk about, you know, like a client patient confidentiality, which is essentially litigiously enforced trust, this is, I'm going to be telling you things that in the wrong hands would be potentially ruinous to me, and we understand that there is a limit to trust. Therefore, we have to enact trust. We have to encase it in law in order for you to feel that you can open up fully. Exactly. And that's one, I mean, I think there's one of the coolest things about, you know, the modern world, right? Is that we have these contracts that we can enforce, which then allow a lot of transactions that to take place, which never possibly could. I mean, that is, you know, you could argue about the value of the clinical psychology but therapist relationship. But without that, it would be undermined completely. I mean, you have to, you have to bind that person to silence in that context, or yeah, you're not going to get the disclosure, the right. So the antecedent of that was the religious context, right? So it's not a coincidence that those confessional were private, right? That it's on the corner over there and no one else can hear it. You don't do it on the pulpit, actually, the entire congregation. Yeah. So that's sort of held. And then, of course, there's the additional thing, which is, yeah, it's not just on the pain of whatever prosecutions, pain of, you know, hellfire or whatever you can't disclose or whatever happened. Yeah. So you need some kind of cultural health. Hellfire. A reliable enforcer. Reliable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you've mentioned a couple of times, clinical psychology. What's your perspective on that? What's your opinion? I think clinical psychology has probably helped a lot of people. I should say in this context, I've been heavily influenced by my relationship with Josh Zlatkis, future friend of the pod. He works with me on living fossils. He's a clinician who's becoming a physician. So anyway, everyone needs to go and subscribe to living fossils on sub-stack and a subscriber and it absolutely rules. Thanks. I'm expressing gratitude. Very good. But he has a up-close seat that I don't have. When I was a pan, I saw clinical psychology among my colleagues. of them, or clinicians, but he's been in the clinic and he was trained as a clinical psychologist. And he's directed my attention to a lot of this literature that says, look, there's a lot of different techniques out there. As far as I can tell, ain't none of them better than the others. I mean, CBT, kind of behavioral therapy, seems to be the front runner right now. And then he says, look, it looks to me. And, you know, all the good that's done is kind of to your point is the trusting relationship itself, not the technology of clinical psychology. Again, don't get me wrong. Some stuff has been important, like the pharmacological stuff that's helped people with psychiatric conditions. There's no denying that that has, that's an advance and that's real science. That's whatever. I'm skeptical about clinical psychology, particularly now, because as far as I can tell, the training has been politicized, right? Yeah, I think you have a somewhat disproportionate cohort of people that are doing it as well that maybe have a particular worldview. Yeah, hey, I read the Contra CBT three-part series on living fossils. I'm fracking. And there as well. Okay, depression, talking about psychology and interventions like that. We've talked about anxiety. What's interesting about depression? Yeah. Again, disclaimer, depression is horrible. And so this is going to be an explanation for it. That might not be right. And in no way should minimise the condition. This is another one where I will self disclose and say, I can say, from first-hand experience, there's almost nothing. That's almost nothing. That's worse than genuine depression. I mean, it's it's hard for someone to have an experience a little bit like you were saying with the incest case. Like, you know, I remember when I was depressed and people said, well, this feel happier. You're like, okay. It's like, um, it's very I'm, hey, diabetic. Why do you just produce more? Yes, more insulin plays. Yeah, whatever. So a lot of this goes back to Ed Hagen's work, friend of the pod. So depression, it's I doesn't seem like it's just sadness. And I think the other, another piece of it is recently in the news, postpartum depression, something that occurs often after pregnancy. So one way to look at depression goes something like this. It sees it as a way to bargain. So people are depressed. They withdraw from whatever they're doing, including childcare, if it's postpartum depression. Um, and they show signs that they might kill themselves, right? They have suicidal ideation. They might make movements in that direction, right? So they might get tools or whatever. And from the think about the perspective of the people around them, right? In some sense, losing someone who is close in your, your potential, your, your mate or your daughter or your, whatever. That's a big cost. And so one proposal that people have made is that it's basically saying, I'm going to do the things that kind of look like I might kill myself or take myself out of the social world, which is bad for other people as a way to get them to invest more in me, to support me. It's sort of interesting case, the postpartum depression. When do you suddenly need much more support? Well, now you've got another organism who you have to care for, yeah, there's no one else who's so the burden is now increased on you, which means, hey, I really could do with some fucking help here. I'm in need. And so what about the behavior of depression? Like, okay, I understand. If you get to the, you know, the, the end, the, the, you know, finality of it, which would be a suicide or a suicide attempt, what about when we come back a little bit more, this sort of withdrawal, yeah, to making themselves small, because it seems to me like if you were to try and motivate behavior that would encourage other people to want to spend time around you, you'd be more fun. You're like we're drawn to people that are a sunny disposition in some ways. I guess you're triggering the empathy in some forms, but like you're not social. So maybe you're not going to see people as much. Well, how are you going to get the attention of people if you don't want to see people so much? So I, first of all, again, I don't know, but my, what's the withdrawal is basically saying, I'm not going to play your reindeer games. And you need me to, you know, you need the fourth for monopoly, you need the second for chess, you need the tenth to go hunt that peckery over there or whatever it is. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So like I'm not just with, yeah. So I take your point about, um, exact, you know, the functionally socially might be quite bad. But like from a utility perspective, you're actually taking yourself out of the put, hey, where's Rob? Yeah. Rob, he's over there. Why is Rob not one? Hey, we need to, Rob, come, we need to come and play. Yeah, we can't play pickleball. We only got three people out of their play doubles, whatever. And so the withdrawal is sort of like an honest signal. No, it's not just that I'm going to withdraw from my social, I have withdrawn from the social activities. I'm not, I'm not at lab meeting. I'm not doing the, whatever I'm not in the green room talking to the gaming out the way the podcast, whatever it is. And I'm not going to be back until you pony up and you, you know, you do whatever it is that I need. What about the reduction in energy and being a little bit more sort of low energy? And why, why feels so bad? Why does it need to feel sort of motivating? I mean, I think that last piece is so interesting. Why don't I feel so bad? My sis, I have a couple of ideas about this. I do think part of that really sadly does have to do with the fact that you've got a credibly signal that you're potentially suicidal because removing yourself from other people's worlds completely. That is a huge cost for people to bear. I mean, I mean, I can't even imagine. I've never lost someone under those circumstances, but it's got to be, it's, it's horrible. So my suspicion is that those horrible, that motivation, that sensation is part of the honest signal of that motivation to say, I am ready to do this thing. But more over, I think it is causing you to withdraw. I'm saying, yeah, I'm really going to withdraw. I'm literally not motivated to play pickleball with you. I don't want to do that. That's not my thing right now. So the feeling of the badness is part of the motivational system causing the withdrawal, which is causing the imposition of costs on other people. I don't know that. I mean, obviously no one knows that for sure, but that, that sort of would be my guess. Is there something around the conservation of energy? I don't know if I'm going to even be able to get enough calories to be able to move forward. Therefore, I should reduce my expenditure. I don't know if it's caloric. Again, my sense is that there's other pieces to withdraw that I think are interesting, which is that it is true that when you're withdrawn, you more or less could spend more of your cycles kind of thinking through stuff. I mean, again, going about a John Tubi, he talked to me about graduate school giving all of the signals to an organism that something's wrong because you're low status. You've got no money. You're getting new signals that you're doing anything right. That would be that's about your work. No one cares about you. You're like, you're at the bottom of the totem pole. And he's like, and then he's like, and so John's like, what's not really surprising that all of you were depressed all the time is because you have no signals that you're doing great. I mean, you know, the most common thing that John ever said to me was, you know, Rob, you could be replaced. So I mean, that's uncharitable. He was a wonderful advisor. But I'm just saying, like you're getting a lot of signals from the world that you're low status. You're not doing anything. And you know, you're not getting publications. And if you are as like one, so you're one good thing and then a million bad things. And so is it crazy to think that natural selection built the system in to say, if you're not doing well, if everything's going kind of bad, maybe just step back and think about your life choices. Like, is this the right way to go? And so when you're withdrawn and low energy and so on, yeah, you're not doing pickleball, but you can introspect. You can think, is this the way I want to go? So maybe there's a little bit of that going on. Interesting. Okay. So we've talked anger, jealousy, envy. What about contempt? Yeah. Good one. Contempts so interesting. I use this analogy about not that I play a lot of video games because that's obviously not very appealing. But if you are going through a video game and you've got a lot of magic items and so on, and you see some, you know, whatever's a cudgel or some tool or whatever that whatever, you just ignore it because it's not worth picking up or whatever. And I think contempt is basically measuring, is this a person who, by their very nature or in their history, has done something which makes them unworthy of my friendship, alliance, relationship, whatever. So contempt is sort of saying, look, I have a limited amount of time in my day. I have a limited amount of time in my life. I have a limited number of friendship slots. I have a limited number of partner slots in virtue of whatever it is you did or whoever it is you are. I'm just not interested in affiliate. So it's sort of measuring, you know, the fact that you've got a person or a thing, which is just not very valuable. And then what does it motivate? It motivates usually avoidance. A little bit. It's got some other motivations too. Usually there's some communicative thing, which is to say, you know, you suck or they suck. Which is maybe signaling, yeah, I recognize that that particular individual is beneath my contempt or whatever. And I think it's important for a social creature. Look, we do have limited slots, just like limited evatories and video games. We can only affiliate with so many people during the day. And so contempt is basically guiding us away from that and saying, yeah, this is not an individual with whom you want to associate. And then resentment. Is that similar to contempt? I think resentment is more with respect to an act that has occurred as opposed to a person. So resentment is something like, hey, that person was promoted because they have a relationship with the boss, not because they excelled at their job. So they got some benefit to which they weren't entitled. And so that measures the extent to which some benefit has been gotten that wasn't or the reverse. So it's about fairness in some ways. There's a lot of fairness in there. So contempt is low status. Whereas, you know, yeah, I would say resentment is much more associated with this sort of violation of an exchange principle. And what is the behavior and what is the behavior trying to motivate in the other person? So, yeah, I mean, I think in contempt is a little bit fear that is sort of avoidance or something. But in resentment, it's interesting. For some, again, I don't know. It seems like most people when they're experiencing what they do is they want to talk about it. I'm not always but often they want to identify. They want to say that person got a thing to which they weren't entitled. My guess is what they're trying to do is motivate one of these moralistic attacks that we've talked about. They're trying to say, yeah. You should look I didn't get the promotion and you should be irritated because they did and they didn't deserve it They didn't actually eat the climate. So let's all condemn the person who did that and maybe I can revert We were asking earlier what's the use of more like well, that's a good example, right? Well, if I can just place that on justice well, then maybe I can get the promotion. Mm-hmm. How about embarrassment? Another good one and also tough. I mean it seems to be something like So what causes people to be embarrassed? It's like usually they violated some social norm right here fly is down or Burped at a wedding or I don't know if you're favorite embarrassing things watch sign fell to the office or whatever and One of the things that we haven't talked a lot about is all is like facial stuff when it comes to emotion So embarrassment has this interesting flushy bit to it, which is involuntary. So my guess. Yeah, good question So what is it measuring? So embarrassment seems to be measuring something like did I just violate some Social norm Because I think that usually is what it is there's other cases, right? So sometimes it's a little bit different from that So like the group project is done and I generally do a bit of it But I get all the credit. I'm like sort of embarrassed about that. It's kind of like violating a norm. Yeah. Yeah But you I think what it is is something like this You want to make sure other people know for sure that you Normally would violate the norm and it was an accident So you know the norm where you wanted your intention was to to obey it, but it was an accident. Oh my god I'm so sorry. I Why do I know and then what's an honest signal an involuntary flush because then you're like, oh They didn't even have to say that they whatever I can see that they know they violated it because it was an involuntary reaction Now I'm sure because it'd be easy to say, oh, I didn't know you weren't supposed to act what I see But with the blushings like oh, yeah, they knew and they and then and then now I've got this honest signal So my guess is you're basically saying yeah, I'm a norm follower I get the rules in the future. I wouldn't be following them. I'm always gonna have my fly up I'm not gonna burp or whatever. This was a one-off thing don't have to worry and here's the signal But definitely I knew it and I and I recognize it as a as a mistake Is it to take embarrassment has to be as well due to perceived loss of social status? I think that's what happened so if like if you if you're seen as a non-norm follower you're Unreliable you're unreliable. You're like, yeah, this guy doesn't even follow the rules I mean just I don't know I think for some reason see by the time and I went the first time I entered Japan You know when you try you don't know what the norms are and particularly or strange or strange land and you know So I'm eating a subway or something like that which of course and you know I kind of noticed people were looking but of course you're you there's other reasons people be like and then later on you really oh I shouldn't have been doing that. That was wrong. I did not it's interesting. I wonder whether I had a an interesting Realization I wonder whether people who Do something that would be embarrassing that you trip over tripping over relatively innocuous morally neutral Way to be embarrassed, but if you trip over when you're on your own What's the emotion then it might be some frustration might even be funny then I think what's funny about it is that you see how Status damaging it would have been You almost get to play in the sandbox. It's this is how it could have caused me to lose status And I did and no one's around and haha isn't that funny. Right totally. Yeah, I mean exactly and you can see this because if you walk to a glass wall When you're alone you just bounce off and you're like I'm gonna fuck say right but the first thing you do if you like I'm fine, you know, and then you make sure first date very different. Oh my gosh. Yeah Well, there's not gonna be a second of that. Yeah, it's true depends how much you play it off I was in Bali maybe 10 years ago and was driving a 50 cent a day Mo Peds through the streets of Changu. And as they were two Australian traveler guys and we were going to a beach club and truck pulled out in front of me 20 yards away slammed on the brakes and classic dog shit Scooter that I was renting from the hotel that I was staying in back brake didn't work front brake did work. So you and Tommy the Back tie I came out from underneath you know I was in swim shorts and a vest and I came off Nothing was broken, but I lost a lot of skin on the left-hand side of my body on Balinese road the Balinese road won the fight and the first sensation that I had Wasn't am I okay the bikes on the floor? I'm in the middle of a road in Bali half of the left-hand side of my body is Currently embedded in the tarmac a couple of yards behind me. It was oh, no, I'm I'm okay. I must be I'm fine. I'm fine straight away. What's the I'm fine reflex? Yeah, I think that is super interesting I don't that one is buzz like I know exactly. Yeah, I think there's something positive about that I think part of it is something like I recognize I just made a mistake It's also interesting because sometimes people say I meant to do that right? That's almost like a comedy line So I meant to do that and there's some sort of again, you're sort of saying look I understand the proper way that one is supposed to operate although in your case, it's not like those equipment failure, but you're sort of signaling I get The the entire tablo what happened it was you know I know how to operate these things I am a I wonder if they would I didn't do it because I did blame it on me Yeah, but a lot of the time people like a fucking bike the bike Yeah, you can't believe the bike again It's outsourcing the norm violation that you've just done is not your fault It won't happen again. What if only I get a better bike if I don't ride such a stupid bike in future or I'm okay I'm okay. Yeah, I'm aware that this thing has happened I'm aware that this is ridiculous. Okay, so that's embarrassment and then taking it up a notch. What about shame and guilt? Yeah, super interesting again moral emotions Having to do with yes or past behavior so I mean, you know if you look at something like Shame again, it has the kind of avoidance thing which people should put their head down They try to be small And that does seem to have to do with the fact so what is it measuring? It's measuring something like I did or people think I did Something which again violates a norm, right? I think of the difference between shame and embarrassment the embarrassment is I I broke a norm and maybe I didn't intend shame might be I broke a norm and I maybe I intended to or people think I did Yeah, and then you got to repair that right so how do you repair that you sort of have to You have to grovel you have to say something like I knew the norm. I intentionally violated it but in the future I I am telling you in the future I'm not going to do that and I will accept a certain amount of cost In the form whatever it is social censure whatever For having for having broken it. It's interesting though because You see shame not just in cases where it is an intentional violation so in some cultures people will experience shame Like so if they're the victim of certain kind of assault, you know people experience shame. What do you think's going in that? Yeah, it's sort of interesting. I Think it's an acknowledgement that under those circumstances because of the rules that govern the culture that person really has lost some social value And they're sort of acknowledging that and trying to figure out what to do about it now to some extent you also try to evade it like again The hiding your face or whatever looks like a sort of a hiding thing But it does look like you're acknowledging the loss of social value even though it wasn't your fault Yeah, it's a kind of vulnerability. It's an acceptance of the vulnerability the injustice That's happened. Yeah, that's that's strange. Yeah, you're acknowledging sort of there's been a switch in the hierarchy the rules the whatever the values and Sorry, and people might people might judge me otherwise as well Yeah, in some cases it would be worse not to acknowledge it, right and and also you better sort of start thinking about what my life is now that the this change has occurred I wonder if some of it is people front running the that Estimated opinions of others about themselves to like oh, I know that I am that you see me in this sort of a way Because if somebody has done something that's shameful or if something has happened to someone that they think of the people are going to see as shameful And they sort of walk into the room. Yeah, and they're sort of full of beans as we would say Yeah, that they would they might be Seniors and self-aware follow-them-salves and not sufficiently What do you say like Giving up what they should in order to be re-admitted into normal social fabric Totally and and of this signal that they're going to change in the future give the new situation And I think it is important to remember all of this all of you know shame is to do with people's beliefs about other people's Yes, right. So I mean, I just was talking to I think it was Robin Hansen about the show for the show About you know survivors of not to darken things after whatever But like because there you also feel you see sometimes it's still and sometimes much more like shame But most I think it's guilt and again, those are people who they've done nothing all they did was happen not to be the whatever I've survived in some horrible thing and It's again, it's super interesting because they haven't intentionally violated an or they've intentionally done anything wrong I mean, at least in these cases But what I but I think they're having some beliefs they have some beliefs about what other people could think about them And that seems to be triggering the emotion. That's why it's so interesting I think and I'm important to start like as this question was it measuring wow it's measuring not what did I do? It's measuring what do other people think has happened or how do other people now value me and that gives rise to the strength of the feeling What's interesting about the mind and attention? Because I think when people think about feelings they're kind of thinking about the sweet that we've gone through so far But there's a whole host of your relationship to your own mind to your own thoughts and to the thoughts of others Now what's what's interesting now? I mean I found this passie So I you know sort of earlier my career I was doing the social stuff and then later my career I started Moving to stuff like the sense of mental effort so that This is the kind of thing you have, I don't know, you're doing the SATs or maybe you're persisting on some problem, maybe a job which causes you to do the same thing over and over or you're trying to multiply three digit numbers and you're at anything, you know, you can mental effort and it's so interesting, I think it is a not obvious question, why does it feel like anything? Why does that feel like something? And particularly why does it feel negative to your point about the bad feelings? So I think that's an interesting one and my sort of response to that, which might not be right, is again, the opportunity cost point, which is that when you're doing something effortful, you're using these really fancy parts of your mind that are good at, you know, like you working memory, what have you, and working memory can be doing lots of different things, it could be planning, it could be, you know, multiplying, it could be solving problems, it could be remembering. And so every time you're using it for one thing, you can't use it for another thing. And in order to figure out what to use it for, you have to somehow measure what that cost is. Like, what is the benefit of the next best thing I could be doing? And so effort is the felt sensation of, is there something else I could be doing right now with those, not physically, but with those mental systems that would be more beneficial to me? And I find that kind of interesting that your mind needs to keep track of itself. Like, there's got to be one part of your mind that's figuring out what the other part of your mind is doing and at the same time trying to figure out what could it be doing. Which I think is just a miracle. I mean, I think boredom is a little bit like this, which is why do people feel bored? Which is sort of like measuring, you know, how rewarding is my current thing, usually not very, if you're bored. And then it's measuring sort of like, well, what could I be doing? Right? Something better than this. And so boredom is like saying, yeah, you could be doing something better. So try to manufacture the circumstances such that you are. So, and again, it's one of these interesting cases where the mind is sort of monitoring what we're doing with our own mind. So I kind of find that cool. It's fascinating, what, which feeling did you understand most differently from pre and post research, do you think? Oh, that's a tough one. Well, I mean, I hadn't thought about a lot of these feelings before. I mean, some of the little ones like itchiness, I never really thought about why we itch. And then there's this whole literature on bugs crawling on you and they stimulate your reference in exactly the right way. And then you're like, oh, there's a bug on there. And that was pretty, pretty cool. I mean, contempt, I hadn't really thought about either for a long moment, just disgusted. And I didn't really know where that came from. I mean, one feeling that is, I think while the understudied, which I got to read a little bit more about having, I did a little bit of work on that, but is going back to jealousy but of friends. So like the saying where if you, before friends and you start hanging out with another person, especially kids, but also adults, they find that very irritating, they get jealous of that. I might be losing him. Or at least I might be demoted, like, hey, I might be demoted in the tube. I'm a position number one, but I might be positioned. No, I'm down. I'm like two or three. I remember feeling that as a kid. Yeah. I remember as a kid too. You would even bar you say, be a best friend and you didn't really meet him. I wonder whether we feel it more as kids because we are less agentic and less capable of looking after ourselves that our allegiances as children and maybe perhaps even more important than they are as adults until we get to the point when we have kids again. Right. Yeah, because you're really building those alliances. I think part of it also is this, you don't, when you're a kid, you're a little bit less strategic. You don't think you're just not inhibited. It's all my friends. Yeah, exactly. So I think this part of that. But I don't know. I mean, one of the joys of writing about all the different feelings was being able to read the literature on all the different feelings. And so for me, I mean, a little step, I mean, this might not be exactly what you're getting at, but I didn't exactly know how breathing worked beforehand. I mean, I know how breathing works. I do it every day. But you know, you might have thought that the urge to breathe that sensation was to do with how much oxygen is doled dissolved in your blood, not enough oxygen. It turns out it's carbon dioxide. And you know, I have a little story about, you know, a disaster that occurred because people in an nitrogen environment and so their, you know, their carbon dioxide is not increasing in the way it would if they were in an, and so that was sort of interesting. I mean, that's a thing is you, once you get into the guts of these little systems and you ask those questions, what's what are they measuring? There's all sorts of fun. Everything's fascinating. Yeah, it's all cool. Which human feeling did you find that was the hardest to explain evolutionarily? Were there some where you're like, what the fuck is the adaptive reason? One that was perhaps more weak or less strong? Yeah. Well, one of the things that I did was I have kind of like an end chapter, which is just all the random ones. I call it monero because when I was growing up, there were five kingdoms. This keeps changing. And the fifth kingdom was monero, which was just weird stuff. They didn't have a, they didn't have a nucleus. I'm like, wait, you don't have a nucleus. So I just called that monero. And there's a lot of stuff in there that some of those are pretty frickin weird. I mean, deja vu, I think, is pretty weird, like the sense that you, you know, that you've seen something before they definitely haven't. I imagine that's a some sort of side effect, but that one's like, that's pretty strange. I think I think there's other, like nostalgia is, these are the temporal ones. He's having to do with this, this sense of times gone by. You can't like go back in time and get this thing back. So what is nostalgia exactly up to is that like a whole, is that just another side effect or what's going on with that? So I think, I don't know, the biggest thing I found was just how under research all these different things were. But many of them, many of them remain mysterious and there's not, you know, a lot of cases where there's not much consensus. Which one do you think causes the most havoc in one life? Envy. Almost without a doubt. I think, I don't, I mean, I don't know, I mean, there's probably other ones too. I think the other, the second candidate would be the one I mentioned early, being Judgy. They're both, yeah, they're both pretty bad. But I mean, the thing about envy is that man, again, being exposed to just all the stuff in the world, the unpleasant feelings that have, I mean, Judgy has more condemnation. That's bad too for all the reasons we discussed. I mean, those are, those are two pretty bad ones. Right. Which emotion do you think society would collapse the fastest without? Ooh, interesting. I mean, to your point earlier, trust is that feeling of trust is a pretty important one. I mean, societies that have a lot of trust in them, whether because they have good institutions or just because of some, you know, history of trust, I'm thinking about, again, like going back to Japan. I mean, they have similar institutions to what we do, right? I mean, they have police and they have courts and so on. But man, do they have a high trust society? The enforcement is way more bottom up than it is. Yeah, exactly. You don't need the courts and stuff like that because people get right, they don't. Have you ever been on the phone to a friend in Japan when they've been traveling on the subway to hilarious? So I have a friend that I'd call from time to time and we would be talking and he would say, okay, it's 30 seconds until the tube gets here. And I would know that he would need to be completely silent from the second that he walks on. Even if he's got headphones, he couldn't whisper. So the conversation, it would be like, it's going to be about seven and a half minute. And obviously it would be clinically precise as well because it's fucking Japan. And he would be replying to me on WhatsApp as I was talking to him. What do you mean by that? Oh, right. Okay. So what I did, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like monologuing away as I'm getting text responses to my verbal output is kind of interesting. Yeah. No, super interesting case. And I think illustrates the point, which is that the trust is a fulcrum. I mean, so look at societies that don't have trust in them. And you know, you, that suppresses all kinds of, you know, coordination and mutually transact, all transactions. That's a very interesting point around, obviously, I'm going back to the UK in a couple of weeks. And one of the big talking points there at the moment is immigration, mass immigration that seems to be happening. And it's kind of interesting that a lot of the discussion is around trust. Actually, I think we get to the root of it. It's one group of people saying, I'm concerned that if we let people in that are not from this culture that don't adhere to our norms, I am not going to be able to trust the typical levels of safety and community that I'm used to will continue. And another group is saying, actually, the trust and distrust that you have around this group is unfounded. And you don't need to be that concerned because the level of cultural homogeneity or similarity should not be indicative of how much trust you have of this. So it really does come down to a discussion around trust. And that is one of the keystone topics of the last US election. It's certainly the flashpoint that's happening in the UK at the moment. So yeah, trust. Trust fundamental. I think it's fundamental. I mean, as you say, I mean, if all of a sudden people lost that, I do think the, yeah, I think society's, again, you can see it because when they do. And so to your point about, yeah, it's really just a question to what extent people abide by the norms when they come to it. And in some cases, they do, right? We have people assimilate and they adopt norms, then in other cases, they don't. But the way that societies work turn completely, extremely on the, whether or not people are following the local norms, because it's hard to coordinate. And so yeah, if you had this norm that says, you know, you should comply with the appropriate government regulations. You had to get yada. Then one thing happens. If you have a norm that says, look, if there's any way to exploit the government and those regulations, then you are fool if you don't, well, then you get a very different set of outcomes. And I think what's happening in this country or Britain, I'm just saying, if you run the thought experiment, it doesn't matter about whether it is happening. It's whether or not people think it will happen or whether or not people think it's happening. Like this is the whole discussion. And I've got, I keep putting my foot in it and I need to come up with a way to like communicate this more succinctly. A lot of the time, people's issue is not with the thing. It's with what they think the thing is. So for instance, intergenerational competition theory, so like that sense, how do I feel like I am doing at my stage of life compared to how I think that my parents were doing at my stage of life? Both of those things, how I think I'm doing. not how I'm doing, compared to how I think my parents were doing, both of those situations are your interpretations of where you are versus where you think you should be, or where you think you are versus where you think you should be. And neither of those are necessarily actually related to reality and all that much. Totally. People are confused about this, too, because every generation is basically the best generation when it comes to their material circumstances, their safety, how much food they get, their longevity, of course, that's an oversimplification, but more or less that's the case. Like it's just not true that your grandfather bought a three-bedroom house with a quarter and had 20 cents left over. I mean, like, you know, and the other piece about that is to go back to envy is that it's not just that people are comparing themselves. It's that they're comparing themselves. They think it's unfavorable because they're beliefs, not because of the facts, and then they get angry, right? And then they want to blame someone, usually a government or a policy, and so on. And as you know, Yoda said, you know, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. I mean, can't put bear in that. Thank you, John, too. So after studying all of these emotions, thinking about this stuff, tactically, have you or how have you integrated this? Because there is a kind of burden that I felt, and I actually asked Jeffrey Miller how he deals with this. When I first started learning about sort of proximate and ultimate reasons for behavior, evolutionary explanations, I found myself feeling more and more like a puppet and less like an agentic individual. I was able to blame other people less for their actions in some ways, but that also made, like, culpability and congruence and affinity and stuff. It all got very complex. And I think that when people learn about this, there can be a sense of like, okay, well, what the, like, where are my way markers for how I should relate to my own emotions? Like, tactically, have you found a way to integrate this sort of learning to improve your own emotional life? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think part of it is just come in terms of the fact that you're going to feel we're going to feel. And that's almost out of your hands. I mean, not completely, but more or less. The part that you can change is what you do based on those feelings. And I think there's some help in the evolutionary point of view, again, going back to the earlier point, which is like, what is this trying to get me to do and why? And is that something that's good for me, your bad for me, or good for the people around me, bad for people around me? So I think there's a certain amount of, yeah, you just got to get comfortable with the fact that you're going to feel the feelings whether you want to or not. I mean, envy is going to happen. It's just like, yeah, so if I could get rid of it, I would. I don't think it's a particularly productive emotion. And I'm blessed. You know, I have a wonderful partner. I have a wonderful sister. I have a wonderful family. I have wonderful circumstances. And there's, but there's always opportunities to feel envious, right? So someone was on the pod three times or something like that, right? And so, but then I do step out. Well, okay, so I can think about envy is trying to get me to whatever, but I already, so that's fine. So I think that sort of the thing is to come, just to come to terms with, yeah, I'm just going to feel those feel, I don't think you could be the Buddha and have no experience of whatever it was that the, but maybe you can, I can't have no lust in your heart and have no envy in your soul. I think those are just things that Darwin gave us and that is it. I think you're allowed to feel the way that you do is a lovely synopsis. I send it to my friends, an awful lot. I sent to my girlfriend, and whether it's good or bad, but typically when it's bad, and a lot of when you hear people talking about their emotions, what they're saying is that they're kind of battling with the, this is a sensation that I'm going through and I don't know if I should be, I don't know if I'm allowed to be. And getting rid of that judgment, like you're allowed, it's okay for you to feel that way. And maybe this is a meditation practice that I do called jhana. One of the interesting things about that compared with mindfulness, classic mindfulness is with classic mindfulness, thought arises, and then you purposefully notice it and let it go. So in some ways there is a kind of distancing, which if you take a CBT informed lens, isn't necessarily great because that can reinforce, I can't deal with this, I shouldn't deal with this, and you're doing it in a much more gentle way. It's like an opening of the hand as opposed to a pushing, but there is still a degree of distancing that's occurring in there, even if it's more due to inertia than sort of deliberate action. But with the jhana approach, what's cool, you have a thought that arises inside. If you let's say like a classic sort of meditator practice of, I'm sitting down, I'm meditating, and then I notice that my mind is wandered because I'm thinking about something to do with work, and then I get frustrated at the fact that my mind is wandered. You go, okay, so there's kind of like two orders of emotions that are going on. And as opposed to I've noticed, and then I've noticed that I'm noticing, and I release it and let it go. With jhana, you actually try and welcome that in. You see that part of you. It's similar to like internal family systems or parts work. So you'll see, oh, there's that part of me that's thinking about this thing. Come here, I'm so glad that I have something I care about so much that even when I'm supposed to be meditating, this thing still arises. And I really, it's not your time right now. Welcome participant at the party, but you need to, you know, it's not quite right. And then look at that bit of me, that bit of me that wants to do things well. I'm so glad I have that part of me that wants to do things that wants to try, that wants to be successful. Look at how much you're just like I had this vision in my mind throughout my entire retreat. I did recently have a rumble like slightly ungainly, but very overly enthusiastic rumble going around and he's cleaning stuff and he gets stuck in the corner and he's cleaning an area that's already being cleaned and he doesn't only needs to redock and just chill out and recharge. I'm like, oh, do you come here? Like I really appreciate your trying so hard. You want me to, you want me to be good at meditating. You want me to have a better quality of life and so on and so forth. Like come here. Wouldn't that be lovely? Like bring it in, bring it to myself. And I like that. I like that idea. I think it's really, really cool. And when you think about, I have these emotions and I've got this tension and I shouldn't be feeling this thing and you go, well, okay, well, what if you just said, I didn't choose to feel this way? I am feeling that thing. It's got a reason. It's got a purpose. It's trying to keep me safe. It's trying to get me to bond with other people. It's trying to ensure that I enforce my boundaries where I should do. It's making sure that I don't waste my time. I'm bored. I'm spending my time properly. All of these things, like, thank you so much for sort of lucking after me. And now you've got at least got rid of the shame, right? You've got rid of the self-judgment and you can deal with the emotion a little bit more cleanly. Yeah, so interesting. And it makes me wonder a little bit about, you know, as you were saying earlier, your guests are off an evolutionist psychologist because that kind of point of view is very modular. It has this very party kind of, as you were saying. That was Robert Wright's, why Buddhism is true when I first learned about that and modules of the mind. But yeah, so yeah, this idea that you've got these different modules, but kind of the out of the piece you're adding is, and they're all okay. And I'm okay with the module. And I also think that resonates with this kind of approach to emotions like, oh, there's these different modular motions all systems. And they're going to get in there when I'm trying to just be. And I'm going to be like, oh, actually, it's kind of, okay, yeah, guys, those are men. We just kept in there. Anyway, what you're saying is don't just think about this function, think about the fact that, hey, that's actually a useful function, maybe not right now, maybe not in this moment. I mean, I think that your practice resonates with the modular view of the evolutionary approach in a very interesting, kind of interesting things, a competing look at them. I've got to try and triage, which is most important. Yeah, it's cool. Rob Cursman, friend of the show, dude, thank you for coming on. Oh, thanks for having me. Why should people go to check out everything you've got going on? Yeah, so the substack is living fossils. The book is called All the Fields. The website is all the fields of book.com. Check them out. And on the website, you can reassemble feel, see if it's for you. I can appreciate you, man. Until next time, thank you. Goodbye, my beauties. Dude, I think that went all right. Oh, epic.