#349 Maggie Freleng with Gwen Graham

Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101, it's a new podcast hosted by me, Hota Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats. Open your free iHeartRadio app search, Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Hota Kotby is presented by CVS. I'm Munga Shatee-Gatherer and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, chermudgins, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. And I get into a bit of trouble along the way. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make you look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff You Should Know and we're submitting our most sciencey episodes for your peer review with our new stuff you should know doing science playlist. Out now, you want to know about Occam's Razor? Simplest Explanation is usually the right one. We got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is, ever since the first time you saw Jurassic Park? Well, come on down. So, distill a nice pot of tea everybody, turn down the gas on your Bunsen burner, and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the Stuff You Should Know, Do In Science Playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. A warning for listeners this episode contains discussion of suicide. Please listen with caution and care. In 1987, Gwen Graham was 23 years old and had high hopes and dreams for her future. She was a natural caretaker and wanted to be a veterinarian. After moving across the country to Michigan, she went to work at a nursing home called Alpine Manor. Gwen liked it there. She enjoyed her coworkers and loved helping people. Gwen met a woman named Kathy who also worked at the nursing home and they started a relationship. During that time, some of the patients at Alpine Manor passed away. It wasn't unusual though many of the residents were elderly or in poor health and died of natural causes. But months later, after Gwen had broken up with Kathy, she learned that Kathy had accused her of doing the unthinkable. I'm not saying I know, the police are coming down the car to me. They told me they said your ex girlfriend said that you killed somebody at the nursing home and I laughed at him. I said I can't believe you came down here for that bullshit. But then when they charged me with four more, that's when I started losing it. My name is Gwen DeLegrand. I've been in carcerated and Michigan for 35 years. It was something that I didn't do that didn't even happen. From love of for good, this is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling. Today, Gwen Graham. Gwendolyn Gail Graham was born in Santa Maria, California on August 6, 1963 to Mac Wade and Linda Ruth Graham. I had a normal upbringing with a public school. I had a younger sister, Corina and an older brother, Robert. We were always at the beach. My dad used to take us down there. He had bought an old vintage truck. And those kids would be on the back of the trucker, like on the side boards and stuff. And he'd be driving around the dunes, he'd let those kids drive so we felt grown up and everything. Gwen and her siblings were growing up in a farm just a few miles from the beach. We had chickens in the backyard and it was fun to have the little chickens when they'd be born. We turned the egg and the incubator and stuff. And we had a duck. They would probably be around just like a puppy dog would. Gwen's younger sister, Corina, remembers how Gwen loved and cared for these animals. Watching her take care of her animals and her little pig, Petunia. She loved that little pig. You know, she had a dog named Mitzi and she loved that little animal. So she was always very compassionate. But while Gwen cared for everything and everyone around her, she was struggling with herself. I didn't really know what to ask her, what was going on. I felt like there was something. They just made me feel real different. Probably around six and seven because I liked girls. And I knew that was something wrong with that because I felt like a little boy. And I didn't know what it was. I just knew that it was different and I kept it to myself. Especially because her family was pretty conservative. They were religious and in their world being gay was taboo. My parents had put us in a private Christian school. The local was a head administrator there. And I remember, at some point there was a discussion about homosexuality. And it was not certainly not in a favorable light. And I realized at that time that that was me. And I had a friend at school and I went and talked to her and I told her, I think I'm gay. And she told her parents about it. And I believe they contacted mine. That's how they found out. Gwen doesn't remember much about the discussion she eventually had with her parents about her sexuality. But she does remember the aftermath. The philosophy or whatever, the me was just to pray it out of you, I guess. My uncle kept me after school for, I think about three weeks and we prayed on it. I just prayed about it, talked about it. And it just never went away. It just didn't happen like that for me. And that just made me feel like there was even more wrong with me because that didn't work. So Gwen kept to herself after that. These really, really tall trees across the street from us and these are crawling into the top of these really tall trees. And look over like the entire stadium. I felt like I was on top of the world. That's where I would go with phones. I always would go find some place to be alone. But she was pretty much closed off. This is Gwen's sister, Karina again. As far as being gay, that's not something that she and I really talked a whole lot about. I know that she had her struggles with it. I would decide I was just going to go ahead and pretend like I wasn't and just trying to be what I was supposed to be. I would go and date, date guys, which that was like super rare. Most of the time I just pretend like I didn't want to date. It didn't bother me. And I just just ignored it. You know, I didn't discuss it. They didn't ask. When she was in the second grade, Gwen's family moved from California to Texas. She lived there until she was about 16. That's when her parents split up and she went back to California to live with her dad. In California, Gwen found herself becoming more accepting of her sexuality. I became acquainted with people that were comfortable with that lifestyle. They were out in the open about it and it made me comfortable to be out in the open about it and not be as a shame. Outwardly ashamed, publicly ashamed about what I was. I accepted it as who I am and it makes me happy. There's really nothing I can do about it. I can choose to be miserable, the rest of my life and live. Live for everybody else or just live for me and just be okay with it. When did you find out that Gwen was gay? It was in my later teen years. I guess I was like, "Bammy, 15, she was 16." And I found out. I just, I didn't have a problem with it. It didn't change how I felt about her. I've always loved her just for who she is. Gwen moved back to Texas a few years later. She soon met a woman from Michigan and the two started dating. They decided to move to Michigan together. But when Gwen got there, she realized the change was not what she anticipated. She had told me she had a really good job at either four. I think it was four. One of our companies in come to find out she did not when I got here. She was on public assistance and felt like the state owed her a living. She just wasn't going to work anymore. So I walked into a really bad situation. Did you start working at the nursing home right away? Yes, I did. I took the first job, I hit the ground running. Gwen took a job at Alpine Manor Nursing Home in Walker, a suburb of Grand Rapids. Alpine Manor Nursing Home was a safe haven for its residents and its workers. Many people who identified as queer or LGBTQ worked there. It was a comfortable environment where they felt free to joke around with each other and pursue all kinds of relationships. But soon Gwen made friends and started socializing. A woman named Dawn became one of Gwen's first friends. Dawn's roommate also worked there at the Nursing Home. Her name was Kathy Wood. So she became a friend. What did you like about her? What was your friendship like? A lot of Kathy was very intelligent. A lot of fun to be around. At the time, both Gwen and Kathy were getting fed up with their respective partners. Dawn had lost her job and she was just sitting around my house doing nothing. And my girlfriend didn't want to work. She didn't want to do anything. She didn't want to move forward in life. And I just felt like over time, her and I decided that, well, she didn't want to support Dawn anymore and I didn't want to support the person I was with. So I moved in with Kathy after she made Dawn leave. They started out as roommates. Gwen was seeing another woman who worked at the Nursing Home and Kathy was married to her husband Ken. But Kathy and Ken were going through a rocky time. She said that her husband was coming over that night to pick up some of his things and I said, well, I'm going out on the date with a girl. So I went over to the girls house and I wasn't over there at the girls house very long. And Kathy had called and she was hysterical and saying that Ken was going to hurt her and what I pleased her back and she was just really hysterical. I said, yeah, I'm coming. Gwen headed over ready to go to battle for her friend. But she stopped me at the door and she said, everything's okay. Everything's okay. So I walked in and Ken was sitting there. He stood up and he introduced himself. He was really polite, really well spoken and we sat down and had a friendly conversation the whole time. I'm thinking about the phone conversation and what happened and stuff. After Ken left, Gwen asked Kathy what that was all about. Kathy tried to explain but things weren't adding up. It didn't take me too long to figure out that she had done that because she was, it was manipulative and she just didn't want me out with the girl. I want to ask you about that. Like about Kathy being manipulative and a liar. Is this like one of the first times you started to realize that? That was the first incident. I thought, well, it can't really be that bad. I mean, the girl likes me and stuff and we ended up being together. Ken really liked Kathy but as time went on, she started noticing that Kathy was becoming increasingly jealous and manipulative. Over time, thank you for being more vicious, more calculated and not with good motives. I'm trying to take them and just get down and think about the things that she did to figure out why she did it. Gwen remembers one day she was with her good friend Lisa outside of the nursing home waiting for Kathy to get off work. When Kathy saw them together, she was suspicious and vindictive. She ended up calling Lisa's husband and telling him that Lisa had confided in her that the baby that they had together was not his, that she had had enough hair on him. She just really vicious stuff like it wasn't true but this caused the conflict with him and I do believe they ended up not together her and her husband ended up splitting up over it. If I was to pick a partner for Gwen, she would not be absolutely not be one that I would choose for her. Some of the things that she done to Gwen, you just don't do to somebody that you say you care about or new love. Gwen dated Kathy for nine months before they split up. I just got tired of all the manipulating, the gains and I just couldn't do it anymore. I just wanted to be happy. I didn't want to be in this situation anymore and I left her. Gwen and Kathy agreed to remain friends after the breakup. Gwen then left Alpine Manor for another job and started seriously dating another woman from the nursing home named Heather. The two decided to move out of Michigan and out of respect for their friendship, Gwen told Kathy the news. So you thought everything was fine so you and Heather go to Texas and then tell me what happens. Let's see, I know the police are coming down to talk to me about her saying that I killed people at the nursing home, I killed a person at the nursing home and started out. In August of 1987, around the same time that Gwen moved away with Heather, Kathy told her now ex-husband Ken a shocking tale. Between January and April that year, while Gwen and Kathy were still working at Alpine Manor, a number of the patients passed away. Among them were 60-year-old Margarit Chambers, May Mason and Bell Burkhard who were both in their 70s, and Edith Cook and Mertle Loose who were in their 90s. Like most of the residents at the nursing home, these women were either elderly, ill or both and their causes of death were listed as natural, such as Alzheimer's and heart attack. But Kathy told her ex-husband these five women hadn't died of natural causes. She told him she and Gwen had plotted to murder the women as part of a lovers pact that would bind them together for life. Kathy painted Gwen as the mastermind of the crime, saying that she herself had acted as a lookout while Gwen killed the patients by smothering them. Over a year later, in October 1988, Ken went to authorities and told them what Kathy had said. His report launched an entirely new investigation into these women's deaths. Three of the bodies had been cremated, but the medical examiner, Dr. Stephen Cole, had the other two exhumed in order to re-examine them. Upon this second look, Dr. Cole determined that these two women had died from asphyxiation. He proceeded to change the manners of death on both their death certificates from natural causes to homicide. Quickly, the media started buzzing about the case in salacious detail. Newspapers seized on Gwen and Kathy's sexuality, depicting them as a pair of lesbian serial killers. "It was in the paper and they were saying that people were killed at the nursing home and I wasn't too worried about it and I really thought it was going to go anywhere. So when they showed up at the door, when they came to talk to me, I thought it was kind of ridiculous. They told me they said, "Your ex-girlfriend said that you killed somebody at the nursing home and I laughed at him, I couldn't believe it, I said I can't believe you came down here for that bullshit." But on December 4, 1988, Gwen was arrested for murder. When she was arrested and brought back to Michigan, Gwen still thought things would be cleared up. That the police would realize Kathy was lying and that she would be released. But that didn't happen. The police and prosecutors then used Dr. Cole's conclusions to bolster the story that Kathy was telling, saying that the other three women also must have died by asphyxiation. "When they charged me with four, I think four more. That's when I started losing it, I couldn't believe that it got as far as it did." This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and to making a positive difference in the lives of its employees and in the communities where they work and live. In light of the compelling need for pro-bonal legal assistance and in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the AIG pro-bonal program provides free legal services and other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. Gwen's trial started in September of 1989. The state's case was presented by Assistant Kent County prosecutor David Scheiber. He started by telling the jury about the alleged lovers pact that Kathy had described. - Whoa, was extremely shocking and salacious at the time. - This is Elizabeth Cole, clinical fellow at the Michigan Innocence Clinic. - It was no secret at the time that Gwen was in a relationship with another woman that she had dated other women in the past and that she identified as gay. And that played a really large part of trial. It was sort of central to the prosecutor's theme. - And that's how the prosecutor targeted his audience. - I mean, Grand Rapids is beautiful, but it is not the most liberal of towns, especially not in the 80s, as Gwen has told me before, there's a church on every street corner. And we have seen in the transcripts this intense undertone of homophobia throughout. Shiber used that to his full advantage when questioning Gwen on the stand. - The prosecutor asks her about her relationship with Kathy and whether or not that relationship was satisfying. And there was a lot of questions about whether or not Gwen had attempted to seduce other women and whether or not Gwen had been faithful to Kathy in this relationship. And I think that all of these little things really tried to show how the prosecution was trying to portray Gwen, which was this controlling, corruptive individual who has no sense of morals and who is a danger from every aspect. - They spent more time just going over details of my psycho life saying it was kinky. And I was thinking if it was my person, my grandma that had been killed and they were talking about that, I would have been out in the courtroom and probably would have said, "What the fuck did I got to do with anything?" And we get back to, you know, my grandma. - But the actual evidence against Gwen was thin. It was a story that started with Kathy. And before trial when Gwen and Kathy were in holding cells next to each other, Gwen says she had a chance to ask Kathy about it. - I said, "Why are you doing this?" She said, "Because you hurt me, because you liked me, because you teed on me." I said, "There is nothing I can do to change that." And she started crying and saying, "But I loved you and started banging her head on the wall in there." And so I was calling the guards and telling them, she's over there hurting herself. - After that, Gwen thought that Kathy would come clean on the stand. - That's not what she did at all. I don't know what happened between that and getting on the stand, but all of a sudden she was totally composed and nailing me to the cross. - Kathy testified as to what she told Ken and eventually told police that she and Gwen plotted to kill the women in a lover's pact. The medical examiner, Dr. Cole, testified that the cause of death for the two women he reexamined was a spictiation. And finally, witnesses from the nursing home said they had heard Gwen and Kathy making jokes about killing patients. - So what did the defense do, a trial, how did they try and refute this? - So the defense really tried, I think, to poke holes in every space that they could. - Gwen's defense attorney, James Piazza, started with Kathy. The defense really tried to show that this was nothing more than a story made up by Kathy. But he was limited in what he was able to do. He requested mental health records on Kathy to be able to discuss that with her. So the judge says after reviewing the records himself that he was denying the motion for her psychological records to be revealed. The judge determined that Kathy's mental health records would be irrelevant to the defense and could potentially even hurt their case. Despite this being an attorney's decision to make, the judge maintained that having these files available might actually help the prosecution's case because it would help argue that Kathy was susceptible to manipulation by Gwen. After an unsuccessful attempt at dismantling Kathy's credibility, defense attorney Piazza then pointed out the homophobia that was on display in the courtroom. - Everyone's sex life is not important because we're talking about murders here. And so I think he tried to sort of minimize the idea that because everyone is gay or was in a relationship with one another, that that meant something in this case. - Then Piazza focused on Dr. Cole. On cross-examination, Piazza questioned Cole about changing the manner of death for two of the women on their death certificates. - Did he see any evidence in these two bodies that it was a homicide? - Based upon his testimony at trial, the short answer is no. There were a number of other things that these people could have passed away from. They were residing at a nursing home. Most of them had multiple maladies that could have been the reason they passed away. And Dr. Cole at trial testified that there really wasn't any typical signs of smothering, which was the allegations that each of these individuals had been smothered, such as burst capillaries, bruising on the face or in the mouth, things like that. He said there was no evidence of that, but based on what Kathy stated, he determined that it was a homicide each time. Dr. Cole admitted that if it wasn't for Kathy's confession, which he knew was the reason for the reexaminations, he would not have determined the cause of death to be a suphyxiation. As for the other three women, because there had been no reexaminations, Piazza asked the judge to determine that there wasn't sufficient evidence for the jury to conclude that they were murdered. His request was denied. Finally, Gwen took the stand to defend herself, but it didn't go over as she hoped. I think she feels like she didn't get to explain her side of the story the way that she wanted to when she was testifying at trial. I think that she tried to explain a lot of the things that were presented like the joke about killing people. Gwen admits that the atmosphere at the nursing home sometimes led to gallows humor. I mean, there were things that we did that were silly and just to get through it. It's a real hard place to work where people pass away and people are sick in there. And you know that this is not a place that people are coming to get too much better. What she was talking about was something witnesses testified to hearing at the nursing home. Gwen says this joke started with a horror movie, Motel Hell, that a group of them had watched at a party. In the film, Motel owners killed their guests and sold their bodies as meat to unknowing customers. And so I believe it was to the boys at the party that started saying well, the bodies of nursing home were about doing a chili cook off. And that's just where it started. It just went from there and every time that somebody would die, it was just a joke that we're going to have a chili cook off. That's all it ever was. How do you feel about making those jokes now? I mean, really awful, really awful, really awful, considering where it went. I can't even imagine that if it had been my grandma or my mother and I heard her start like that and people make jokes about it and you know, they heard death and you know, I feel horrible about it. I think she tried to explain that by after so many people had testified to it, it sort of fell flat. And I think that Gwen wasn't able really to talk about what it was that she wanted to talk about, which was her innocence. And so looking at Gwen's testimony, it seems like they tried to address all of the issues that had been presented at trial. They sort of went point by point and tried to address every conversation she had had with every witness. And I just think that the impact wasn't felt by the jury, that sincerity wasn't felt by the jury. Kathy took a plea deal of second-degree murder in exchange for her testimony against Gwen. She was sentenced to 20 to 40 years. On September 20th, 1989, Gwen was convicted of all counts and given six concurrent sentences of life without parole. Were you surprised when you found out she was convicted of this? Oh yeah, I cried. I still cried. And I really feel like she was railroaded. It was 15 years before Karina was able to visit Gwen in prison. At first, she didn't recognize her sister. I know she was like 25 or so when she went in. But her appearance had changed, of course mine had changed. So I mean I remember standing in the middle of the room just looking around just like calling her name and then I looked at this lady, sitting in her chair and she was just crying. Then I knew it was her. So they allowed us to hug. And we were like, "That's really you. You're really here." And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm really here." I thought she was so beautiful. It was really nice, really great. A mobile dial never forget. I had a really hard time coping with how did this happen? I was in shock for probably years. I was just like an autopilot. I went through the motions. There were times when I just couldn't do it anymore. I just felt like I just couldn't do it anymore. I tried to hang myself a couple of times and officers found me and cut me down. I quit trying because I figured, "Well, it's not going to let me kill myself unless they hear from something so let's get to it." Last we grew it out through therapy did out. For me, fixing other things, I spent a lot of time fixing other things and helping other people and fixing their things. I have an inability to fix my own no matter what I try. I can't seem to fix this to make people see how I'm going to make them see them. Better I get them to do this. Hey I'm HotaCotB, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with HotaCotB. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with HotaCotB on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Mungusha together and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about. And what it really means to live forever for all of us. I learned about some rad science. I can make a brain for you and then we can test what draw is the best for your brain, as opposed to his brain. Here are some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster but I did not expect it to be almost a 4-5 year acceleration. And get myself into a world of trouble. That doesn't work. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bill, why is my eye twitching? Does this mean I'm in Perry, Menopause? Maybe I have adult ADHD. I need to look this up. Where's my phone? Julianna, your phone is hot to the touch. I think it's asking you for a break. You know what? Maybe I should just ask Chad GPD. Or maybe we can ask an actual human. Yes, like a couple sex therapist. Whoa, that escalated quickly but okay. Because I have questions. We have questions. And I bet everyone has questions. Like, is it normal to sleep in separate bedrooms? We do that. How about this one? Is driving your kids bad parenting or just negotiating? Oh, and I still do need to know why was my poop green that one time? Hypothetically, right? Okay, well, instead of letting the internet gas, we've got actual people answering these exact questions. And laughing with us has got to be better than spending three hours down a rabbit hole online. Listen to Bill and Julianna. The podcast on the iHeart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Although Gwen didn't think she could fix her wrongful conviction, she still tried. Gwen wrote letters to experts, attorneys and innocence projects. In 2022, Elizabeth Cole was handed Gwen's case to review by the Michigan Innocence Clinic. When you read the story of the case, it doesn't seem fully plausible. It seems really fantastical like it would make great TV. And usually that stands out to us. The other thing about this case in particular, and I think why we decided to investigate is that this case is based around some very weak evidence. Only Elizabeth and the Michigan Innocence Clinic are looking at two specific angles that reinforce how Gwen's case was set up to fail. First, they're exploring how Dr. Cole was prejudiced by outside information given to him prior to the re-examination of the two bodies. Each of these women were determined to have been murdered by smothering. And Dr. Cole was very clear about the fact that that all came from his conversations with the police and from Kathy's statement which he believed. I can't stress this enough. There is no medical basis for the homicide determination. And this was testified to a trial and then reconfirmed during a review by another medical examiner some years later that there is no medical evidence to support a theory of smothering. Elizabeth says the bottom line is, "Any theory of a case should not be shared with medical examiners or similar personnel until after they make unbiased judgments because this information can and likely will affect their opinions." The second avenue that the clinic is focusing on is the rampant homophobia exhibited throughout the trial. This was an incredibly salacious trial. The testimony was especially salacious and so there was sort of this connection for the prosecution between like this lack of morality and Gwen's sexual preferences. This idea of homophobia that was played very heavily throughout trial really colors everything else. It colors her relationships with the people who testified. It colors who she is. It colors police opinion of her. It colors jurors' opinion of her. Certainly, color the media's opinion of her. The colors every aspect of this case and so that impacted Gwen and really prevented her from having a fair trial. The Michigan Innocence Clinic is currently writing a clemency petition on Gwen's behalf that will focus on these two issues with the ultimate goal of getting Gwen out of prison. In 2020, Kathy was released on parole but only after spending almost 30 years in prison based on a lie she told to put Gwen behind bars. To this day, Kathy has not admitted she lied. Why do you think she stuck with this story for so long? Or forever? "I thought a long hard about it when she said that we were killing all people in nursing homes and for her to sit there and tell anybody in the world that it was a lie and everything and then she would have to have that on her shoulders for the rest of life and I just don't think they should live with it. I think that she was okay with the time that she did because I'm here for nothing. I think she was okay with it like she was paying her own little price for what she did to me and as long as she never says anything she will always be in control of my life. I'm always being controlled. When do you get out, what do you hope to do with your future, with your life? I'm going to take my sister and look around the world. I want to just take her around the world and travel because she works so hard. That's all she does, it's work, work, work. I just wanted to slow down and have fun and I just want to spend time with her. The older I get, the more I realize that if I walk out of here I'm not going to have a lot of time left. So I might be fucking with it, get shorter and shorter. I'm not a killer, I'm a good person. I care about people. Though I felt like the world that I cared so much about let me be a hind and forgot about me, I still care. If you want to help Gwen, you can contact Michigan Governor, Gretchen Whitmer in support of Gwen and her clemency petition. You can also contact the Michigan Innocence Clinic to share your support for Gwen. These links will be in our bio. Next time on wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling, we'll revisit our season one episode with death row prisoner Hank Skinner. But I think with the evidence we have now that they're going to have to let me go and they're going to have to acknowledge that I'm innocent. I think after all I'm suffering that I deserve a chance. I deserve to be with my wife. I deserve to have a life. I deserve to be released and get the hell out of here and I won't have. Hank died in February at the prison hospital in Galveston, Texas from complications following surgery for an aggressive brain tumor. Up until his death he continued to maintain his innocence and to fight for exoneration. Thanks for listening to wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your local Innocence organizations and go to the links in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flom and Kevin Werdas as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Laila Robinson and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea with additional production by Jeff Clyburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram @wrongfulconviction on Facebook @wrongfulconviction podcast and on Twitter @wrongconviction as well as @lavafirgood on all three platforms. You can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter @maggyfreeling. Wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of "lavafirgood podcast" in association with Signal Company #1. #1. Joy is essential and it's also elusive but now. There's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, Hota Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid, uplifting, and moving on air chats. I'm Munga Shategatherer and I'm back with a new season of my podcast Skyline Drive. This time I talk to scientists, biopunks, cormugians, blues owners, super seniors, and go as top cryotherapy lab to try to understand this obsession with living forever and what it means for all of us. That doesn't work. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. We got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is ever since the first time you saw Jurassic Park? Well, come on down. So, just still a nice pot of tea everybody. Turn down the gas on your Bunsen burner and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the Stuff You Should Know Do-In Science playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.