#347: Sport Marketing & Communications - How to work in AFL, NBA and Seven Sport with Anthony Alsop

Take every coffee you possibly can. I would do as much content as I can. I would probably do my own LinkedIn ads about myself. Maybe some Twitter ads because a lot of stuff really do. We cheap these days. And I'm getting a million bucks. Like I made the one in Vest, right? - That's true. - Makes sense. - That's probably the first person that's actually said that. - Well, there you go. - Yeah. - Just get in front of as many people as you can. And it doesn't need to be in person. It can also be in the feed. You just have to show up with your expertise. Like, I've actually received ads of people voting themselves on LinkedIn. I was like, "Wow, that's clever. "I need it, you. I'm actually going to do it." But yeah, that's hanging in front. (air whooshing) Hello and welcome to the SportsGrad podcast, the ultimate guide to make it in the sports industry. I'm your host, Nathan Peroni, and on this podcast, I chat with people in industry and find out how they got hired into dream jobs in sport. If you want to know what people are doing to break in and grow their career, make sure to follow the pod and subscribe to our newsletter for even more advice. Or if you want to give yourself a competitive advantage in the job market and put your career on a rapid new trajectory, go to our website and apply for the next cohort of the SportsGrad method program. Here at SportsGrad, we've helped people land 835 jobs in sport. A recent shout out goes to Lauren Tennyson, who has landed a job at Nike as an account executive sport specialty. Having connected with Laurence, it's great to see he got, he's moved into the sport industry after coming across from New Zealand, where he worked at L'Oreal as an account manager so congrats again mate. Now, coming up in the show today is Anthony Allsop, senior marketing and communications executive. With over 15 years in elite sport, Anthony has some incredible names on his CV, not only from time working in Australia, but also includes the MBA. Anthony's amazing stories go beyond sport too, with his time at William Obylis, creating moments to showcase, Neb Brockman's work and helping to raise over $7 million across two events. Anthony is also a mentor of our SportsGrad method program and loves giving back to our sportsGrad community. So grab a pen and enjoy this chat with Anthony. - Hey guys, Ruben Williams here, founder of SportsGrad. We're back to the episode in just a second, but I just wanted to take a moment to tell you about the SportsGrad method program, which has been helping people land jobs and major sporting bodies in as little as 14 days and doesn't require you to take out a massive debt to get started. If you are looking to make a jump into the sports industry, but nothing seems to be working for you right now, then why not apply for the SportsGrad method program? Inside, you'll get given a proven playbook and a 101 industry mentor, as well as access to the SportsGrad network, plus much, much more, all of which have helped people land over 800 roles in sport. If you're ready to back yourself and fully go after your career and not let life get away from you and wonder what if I'd only given that a shot, then you're the kind of person who we'd love to work with. So head to sportsgrad.com.au/program and you can apply to join us. Anthony, also, welcome to SportsGrad podcast. - Thanks for having me, guys. - Pleasure. Not your first sport business podcast. - No, I believe you always. - Sport geek, a good friend Sean Calon in 2018. - Yeah, Sean was traveling the country way back then and I'm sure he was low on potential guests there and he just said, "Can we have a chat at the gather?" And I was there in the office and he said, "Sure, come by." So yeah, probably talk about very similar stuff. We'll speak about today, but you know, a long time ago now, so back at it again. - A few more experiences in San Diego. - Yeah, correct. - Yeah. - A accreditation wise, what have you got for us today? - I wanted to bring something pretty unique and random. So I've brought Davis Cup 2017, Davis Cup. - Australia versus. - Nice. - I don't even want that. Australia versus Czech Republic. - Where was this in Melbourne? - Cuyon. - Cuyon, so obviously it wasn't very big, 'cause it was a Cuyon. But it was one of the random ones that came along with the job at Channel 7, 'cause it was such a very role. And was not expecting to find that in the older, Accred, little stash that I've made. - I was gonna say, do you have a big stash at home? - Yeah, a little bit of a stash at home. And yeah, still I'd bring that one in, 'cause it's pretty unique. - Yeah, I think many people have, I mean, he, people have AO, Accreds. - Exactly, right. - But not in Davis Cup. - Not in Davis Cup, all the Czech Republic. So there you go. That'll go nicely on the wall in the house. As you will know, I know you're at least known, keep part in the sports grade program, but we start the podcast with Quick Fire Questions to get to know you a little bit better. Firstly, what inspired you to work in sport? - This is what I love to do. Like, I loved watching it, love playing it. On the weekends, in high school, I was doing basketball Saturday, tennis Sunday morning, 40 in the afternoon, on a Sunday. So yeah, it took over a lot of my life. And then when you wanna go out in the real world, why not do the thing that you enjoy? - Yeah. - Pretty simple. And I think the thing that actually got me in my first real role in that was, I was living in America when I was 19, and I was watching the Australian Open on TV in America. And I was like, why don't I work there? I just went back and worked there the next year. So that's how I get back to what happened. - What were you doing? How long were you living in America for? - I lived in six months. I ended first year at uni. I made a mate. We went to live in L.A. And we worked in Universal Studios. We were in Starbucks, serving coffee. And we chose L.A. 'cause it had two NBA teams. And we had big basketball fans. We wanted to go and watch NBA games. So yeah, it was just a bit of a circuit breaker after the first year at uni. And yeah, we were just watching ESPN over there, and the tennis was on. And I think like me or my sister would try to become a ball kid when we were in the 13th, 14th, but that's a very hard gig. Sure, it's harder to get now. And I was just watching them like, why don't I get more involved with this? I'm pretty sure this is on the side of the world. And yeah, I went back to the next year and got a gig. I was like, where that? Did you serve any coffees to famous people? Yeah, one of the actors would come through and be like, I know you. You know, those bit players. I haven't remembered a couple of times. I was like, I know you from somewhere. But yeah, it was the first day I worked there. The boss came over and said, do you want to go to a movie tonight? And I was like, yeah, sure. And he goes, great, here are tickets. And we turn up, it's the world premiere of Meet the Fokers. And we got to walk the red carpet, Ben Stiller, Ben Middler, see everybody. So I was like, welcome to LA. Seriously, they won. Welcome to LA. So you might have had a career in entertainment. I'm getting exposure to that, so really. Is there entertainment grad we can work on? Shoby's grad? Rube's probably wants it down the line. I'm sure he's the expansion. What was your first ever job? And what was your first ever sport, right? The job. First of a job, calls, check out, chick. Like a data and 15, got that. The neighbor was it, she worked at coal and she just said, do you want a job? And that was the extent of the interview. Pretty easy. That's nice to hear. Yeah, got that. So did that for a while. So I moved to America. I did that four or five years during high school. And then yeah, the first paid gig was at the show in open. It was a statistician. And so whenever you watch broadcast or on the app now, when the score comes through, there's someone sitting on the sideline determining if it was an unforced error or a forced error, whatever. And that was us, team about 20-ish people, 25 people do that. And it was a super cool gig, you know, 20 bucks an hour to sit courtside watching the world's best tennis players. Very cool. So-- Is that 20 to 25 across the whole Melbourne par? Yeah. So I was basically like-- There's a lot of games going on. Yeah, there's a lot of games. So in the lesser courts that have one person, but on the courts, you might have three. And then you've got a night shift and a morning shift and all that kind of stuff. So probably more, actually. But yeah, we used to sit courtside and do all these great stuff. And now A.O. it's so big that they now give those seats to wait a very high-paying customers. So it's a lot smarter. But yeah, it was an awesome gig for-- Did that for a while, I think, well, eight years? Yeah, I did that. Yeah, on an offer about eight years. And there's still people who do it now. They go back on their holidays. And it's wild. The amount of people that go back for 10, 20 years, whatever doing it. But yeah, super cool gig. Is that niche to break in? Obviously, we speak about ball kids and like-- Yeah. --court services. I've never heard of like applying for a statistician. Yeah, well, I hadn't either until I did it. And it was like, what could I actually do here? And it's like really the qualification to do you know the rules? And I'm like, I'd like to tell you, my dream career. So yeah. And like the final interview was like, is this a forced error or an unforced error? And I was like, yeah, so I've got to work that out. And you're OK. You wouldn't have had all the technology now back then either. I think it's still the same. Ball. Like the ball line technology, I'm saying, it makes it easier as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I literally just put like mouse up and down into a thing and it's like unforced force and move it across. Yeah, OK. But yeah, it's a little bit different when you're doing Roger Federer there in front of you. But apart from that, you know, unforced the fairie experience. Fairie, good to know. After high school, extra study, did you complete any? No, I think I tried to do that. The extra study for me was like the actual work experience. So the tennis staff and then being a basketball fan, like wanted to get involved with basketball in some capacity and just hit up the Melbourne Tigers back in the day. And like any small struggling sporting club, you, you, you've called up and say, can I help out nine times out of 10? The answer will be yes. And so yeah, the opportunity they had available was court sweeper. And again, I think I was 19 or 20. I remember being like, you know, 10-year-old looking at that job thing, I'd love to do it. And maybe I was out of my prime for court sweeping, but I'm like, sure, whatever that sounds cool. And yeah, had a few good years there with a good maiden line. Tigers won two chamois chips out of three while I was there. I got to go to Sydney for winner couples. So it delivered a cool, lot of cool moments. Were they still Tigers by the time you left? Yeah, still the Melbourne Tigers then. We're playing out at the cage at the St. Neppel and Hockey Center. And, you know, the first year I was there, like we'd struggled to feel the three and a half seat stadium. So it's come a long way since then. And it's awesome to see the way that you knighted and the feeling is doing now. But yeah, some dark days are passable then. Hence the jobs were available. Well, I'm sure it's hard. We're doing a cool, sweeping opportunity now. But yeah, really cool experience. And again, you got to get to get to the games, got to engage with the players, understand the sports industry from the first really like element of it, or aspect of it in my career. So it was a very cool opportunity. - Yeah, amazing. One interview question you were asked answer for any jobs you've been in that you love or look back on, or what's the question you'd like to ask people that you hire? - Yeah, I think that the thing about that is really what are you passionate about doing. And I think about that because like when I got in the industry, I'll try to get in the industry. My big problem was what I want to do, I couldn't decide. I didn't know what area I wanted to go. I just knew I wanted to be in sport. And at that stage, when you think about that, you're like, why would they turn me down? Like, I'll do anything. I'm so helpful for that then. But we're in the other side, and you're in the hiring side, it's like, well, I actually needed to be great at this one thing, and pretty good at this second thing, most likely. - Yeah. - So the thing I would ask, when I got the other side of the hiring desk, it was like, well, what are you really passionate about? And if they were applying for a job, and I was like, I'm only here because of the logo behind us, you'd often learn that they may not last very long, or they may not have a great career, or honestly, turn up to work and enjoy it. But if someone could come along and say, I'm really passionate about X, and you just happens to be this environment, like, that's when you often know that person will turn up every day, loving their job, giving you what you want, putting in the extra hours, and a lot of them last for a long time. Because the reality is with support, as you well know, and I'm sure this audience knows, like, somebody will put their hand up to replace you very, very quickly. - Yep. - So you do want people who will stay in for long haul, because, like, honestly, when you go back to the hiring process and you put a job up in sport, you might get four, five, six hundred applications, whatever, and it's nuts. And going through then, just higher, the best person, the first time, makes life a lot easier. - Yeah. We sort of spoke about this too before we jumped on air, but do you think it's better to be more well-rounded, or like an expert? And you can come with different marketing comments background as well. - Yeah. - That's a lot of the thing. So I'd probably say if you're looking at that comms and content space today, like, you need to be in all rounder. - Yeah. - And the reason for that is, like, well, budgets, first of all, like, this is not, you know, 20 years ago, everyone has just lean a budget to run a contenting. And also, like, a lot of the skills are quite transferable. So if you want to be creating content, like, you often have to know how to be able to write a script and how to make a thumbnail and how to do graphics and, like, kind of thing. So, like, if, again, if you're on that hiring side and you go, well, if I get someone who can do four things, it wants all pretty well. I get one person who can do one thing really well. Like, I'd probably go for the four things, if that works out. So that's on, like, the content and more so, more of the marketing side. But, you know, if you're in sponsorship and sales and all that kind of stuff, that's a very skilled area. Like, you have to know what you're doing. You have to be able to know how to write contracts and negotiate and all that kind of stuff. So you probably want to be pretty, an expert in that and accounting and other important things. Sound advice. Book or podcast recommendation. Let's help Joccurri so far. The book for me, I really like reading the third door. It's called. So the concept is about, this guy has tried to hunt down the world's most successful people and ask them what made you successful. And kind of what he learns long the way. Are we going to spoil this? No, what he learns long the way is that it really was that people just built their own pathway. So the concept of the third door, everybody knows the front door, everybody knows the back door. But where's that side door or something else that you can create for yourself to get you into your passion or your dream or whatever. And so, yeah, from my recollection, he tries to hunt down Bill Gates and Richard Branson and all this kind of dudes, he doesn't get to speak to everybody. But he learns from people in their world that it's like, oh, this guy just followed his passion or this guy just never took no finance or whatever it is. And that's kind of the concept of the third door. Like go and create your own opportunity. Because more often than not, people won't create it for you. Love it. That's a good statement to clip that up later on. And last year-- I think it's down by some time. Yeah, I know. Tools will be good at that, I'm not saying. And last one on the Quick Fires, if you could try another job in sport for a day, what would it be? Yeah, I think like CIO-- let's just do CIO, why not? Yeah, I've been reporting to CIOs for a while. And all the strategy staff, long-term planning, like the big thing about a new facility or a new sponsor or the jumper changing, it looks like a new stuff. That's all those guys, I'm not the jumper changing. But those big pictures-- I'll get involved. Yeah, I'll get involved. The big picture stuff, the new to me now, that's the stuff they deal with every day. So yeah, why not? Like it. Maybe down the track. Now before we jump in and dive into your career, your journey, I just want to speak about an impressive CV that a lot of people would be fond of, I would say. So we're talking Melbourne Tigers, Trailing Open, Richmond 40 Club, MBA, Seven Sport, covering Olympics, AFL, tennis, spring race, carnival, Brisbane Lions, Melbourne Rebels, and basketball.com.au. Devita, look back and go, well, I've been to a lot of cool organizations. Yeah, I've been a lot of cool organizations. Yeah, it's a weird and windy road. But yeah, amazing opportunities. And you look just listening those off. Like there's just a lot of cool memories, too. I think if you're lucky enough to work in sport, you just get left with amazing memories. And your friends in accounting or lawyering, whatever might have a better house or whatever than you, a better apartment. But you're left with memories that you'll never forget. And so yeah, it's some very cool moments that when you reel them off, I think about. And yeah, it'll be very fortunate to work in those opportunities as well. Yeah. So before we jump into ritual, we was like the first full-time gig in sport. I just want to speak about, see, you founded sports, beer, and jack events. Now when I was looking through LinkedIn profile, I was like, OK, this sounds kind of curious. So sports beer was a social media consultancy business. And he launched campaigns for the bombers, Gold Coast, and Adam Scott, just to name a few. And then jack events was a free networking event for sport industry folk for digital media. So you're basically doing sport sports grab was 15 years ago. Do you want to speak about what those experiences meant to you and how they all came about? Yeah. So like, speak about before about not knowing what I wanted to do in sport. I ended up going to a Sman's SM-WA NZ sports marketing conference. I have heard of that. Yeah. And because I was just trying to learn more, meet people, learn more about it. I was really trying to crack the industry at that time. And I've been unsuccessful for jobs in membership roles and all these lower level jobs or entry level roles that I was like, I know I can do, but I'm not getting them. So what am I doing wrong? And I've got this bit of experience with tennis and bit of experience with Melbourne Tigers, but it's clearly not enough. So I went to this conference to learn more about just what people were in the industry we're doing. And it sounds so archaic now. But someone did a session on Shack and Howe used Twitter. And I was just like, well, I'm really passionate about sport. I really like technology on the side. But I just never thought about combining them. Again, this was a very long time ago. And I was like, you know what? That's it. Just sitting in this session in 30 minutes, it always clicked to me. And I'm like, this is what I wanted to do in sport. This is it. And so it took some advice from my sister who was like, OK, that's great. You want to do this? Well, how are you going to get noticed? I'm like, I don't know. And she will start a blog. And so sports bill was that blog. And I literally would just blog about what I saw and found interesting in that space. And so the big post for me, I don't know, I like Bill Simmons and everybody's quantified in an hour. But I ranked the AFL teams by their Twitter use as one of my blog posts. And that got me noticed. Like really simply-- And this is at a time when Instagram wasn't really getting used to. It didn't get. Yeah. Facebook was that they were using that in sport. I was like, just started from a hateous perspective. So Twitter was like the main social platform. Yeah, it's just 2009 to 2010. So a very long time ago now. But yeah, like teams didn't have dedicated digital managers yet. And like, I think like one of the teams I ranked in even didn't have a Twitter account or something. So it was very simply like, which teams are really engaged in this like digital first, speaking to their fans? And like, I even had a column like, do they post after 5pm? Like, do they care about this after hours type thing? And I remember thinking like, well, they're the people who care, like they go the extra mile. And I think like the top three teams who I ranked is like the top three all reached out and SNM one of them. And I ended up doing an internship from that. And off the back of that, like it just led to some controversy work with a few others. Like, yeah, Australian cricket association, Jeff White, the Melbourne Ruckman, who's now doing some really great content. He was starting his own digital work. So I ended up doing some work with him when we worked with Adam Scott and a few other people. So yeah, that was like my real fore-end of the industry for the first time from a professional perspective. And then while that was all happening, friend of mine just had-- he was running his own SEO agency. And we were chatting about and he's like, I go to these conferences all the time. Like, do you know-- is there a conference for what you guys, what you do? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't think so. So I did a quick little Google couldn't find one. And we're like, let's start one. And then of course, the day we went live, we found the rival conference after. But yeah, so we started-- we did a paid one. We did a paid one as well as some free stuff. And yeah, hosted the MCG. And we wanted it for people who were like us, like the doers. Like we didn't want CEOs to come along. We wanted the doers to come along. So we made it a pretty cheap event. We had 150 people at the MCG sold it out. I think our big headline was from Phoenix Sun. We flew someone out from Phoenix Suns. It's impressive. Yeah, we were happy with that. And then we got-- yeah, just some people from Cricket Victoria and Perth Wildcats and a few others to come along. And yeah, that was like, put your big boy pants on and try and be part of the industry, right? And so we all like, faked it and make it and put a conference on. And people really liked it. So we went back again, did the next year. Same thing. And then I had a job by the Annemission Fuddy Club. [BLANK_AUDIO] And it was hard, it was hard to run both things and, you know, still get sleep. So, but you got out of it. What you needed to 100% yeah. And then yeah, great networking, great learning about the industry, um, great putting the events on. And some great speakers and those free events. But yeah, it really was about how do we bring people together in this new and emerging industry? Cause some people are really passionate about it. But there wasn't like LinkedIn wasn't a thing and you all kind of operate in silos back then. So this was an opportunity to bring it together. Well, very nice. Uh, you just spoke about it. So Richmond's the next cover for rank. So digital marketing manager at the tieings. How does that roll all come about in the first place? Yeah, we'll back to that internship at Essenden. Um, so I've been there for a couple of months and I think I was just known as like the annoying kid who knew what to do on the computer. Um, in that team and, uh, the, uh, Richmond had just poached. So Brennan Gayle had kind of recently taken over and he poached, um, one of the key staff members there. Simon. Um, and Simon spoke to my reported Essenden, um, John O Simpson who I'm sure probably not a few people in sports, go community may know. And just said, who's that kid? What's he doing? Can we have a chat and just started from there? So, um, digital marketing roles went very prevalent at the time. Like I think only a couple of other clubs had them. Yeah. And Richmond were really building that up. So yeah, jump to the opportunity. Um, and it was, it was amazing and had such a good time there for five years and, um, yeah. Like we really, it was the early days of digital and the AFL. Um, and, uh, yeah, we made a lot of progress, built great audience. It'll rode the ups and the downs and, um, we're able to do some very cool things there. And, and it was one of those jobs that like, well, I love. So, you know, the first, first real crack out in the industry was very fortunate. Was there many, um, shackles that you, like, they're like, you can't do this. You can't do this. They were really open to any ideas. No, Brennan Gayle, there's a CEO and a leader and Simon. They were very much like, you know what you're doing. You go and do it. Yeah. Um, so very supportive of that and Simon as a boss, very creative. Always had a bunch of ideas like we launched these games and all these other things, um, that we purpose built ourselves. Um, and yeah, really pushed the boundaries with the AFL. Uh, people were saying, no, it was the AFL and Telstra. Um, but a clubland, uh, very supportive. Um, and, uh, yeah, we're also, we work with those guys to get some stuff out the door. Um, they're really proud of. And yeah, we just did a whole bunch of cool things and like, honestly, nearly all the way down the footy club is really supportive of, like, just trying to get it. It's out there, um, as a club at the time. Um, there wasn't, uh, you know, doing well in the field, but like, you could also, like, use digital and social as a way to really be like, hey, we're more than just a footy team on this two hours on the weekend. We're doing great community stuff on a Wednesday. We're supporting families on a Thursday. Um, and that was a really cool thing about Richmond is that they had their current, the Magic Institute and a lot of Madeline Foundation relationships, like much more than a footy club, supporting a lot more people. Um, than just the, you know, the players and the fans. So like, it's really very place to be. Yeah. Still with anyone there at the time. Is it you work to us? Uh, I think there's a lot of people there. Still ain't no bosses to there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, no. Great, great crew down there. I wanted to mention too. So you were the winner of the 2013 AFL Club peer award. And you're up in 2014. You could tell I put that at the time. I wanted to make myself to improve on my LinkedIn. Well, honestly, I saw it. I'm like, that sounds interesting. Anyway, yeah, so you run up in 2014 for the same award and then you also won the AFL Club Digital Innovation and Strategy Award in 2013, I think as well. Yeah, I'm kind of what I was for. Can you explain what that sounds like to me? You're like the best ranked administrator in the AFL. Yeah. So like, um, I, let's play over before we had the connection with the Phoenix Suns. So I've gone over to America and met with them. And he had on this and his office, the guy came out his name Jeremy. And his office, he was like best team, like digital team. And I was like, what's that? And he's like, oh, there's the awards we hand out at the NBA. Like they're marketing awards or kind of thing. And I'm like, yeah, that's cool. You know, it was 30 teams out. It's a bit more competitive. And I think maybe like a year or so later, I was just saying to some people that I felt like we should like incentivize the teams here for doing what we do. And I think 2012 was the first year I think we did it. And yeah, there was like, I think there was a bunch of club people got to vote and people that AFL HQ got to vote. And yeah, it was just like, we all work really hard. And this stuff all goes off into the ether. Why don't we get together into the year like we do anyway and actually just like say, well done to one another and celebrate work. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, a bit of a competition between each other and that's all good for that. But I was a big believer too. Like we're never going to steal like, thank you, all the fans or North Melbourne fans of vice versa in that space. And like digital. So I'm like, why don't we just help each other out? Like we're all using the same technologies. Like let's try and get the most out of we can better experience with fans. That was my approach. I'm sure other people had different approaches. But yeah, that award stuff was just a way of saying like, hey, we've all worked really hard. You know, when you're in that digital team, you're often staying back to one o'clock after game. It's doing all the hard work. Like this is just a little way of saying what I'm. Yeah. So would you say that you were ranked like the best administrator in the AFL? Is that what it means? In his very little niche, maybe, yeah, by my peers. Yeah. Yeah. And in the club, the club ranked as the best digital innovation strategy. Yeah. I think there were like a whole bunch of awards in the end. That was one of them. But yes, I think, yeah, we were doing good stuff. And like Richmond, very passionate fan base, very lucky to have access to that. Yeah. I mean, that role as well. But yeah, as I said, like we try to push the boundaries of what we were doing. We will be annoying to people in power as a result of that. But yeah, we did some cool things. I thought like it. Now you spoke about the Phoenix Suns you worked over in the States. Now you go to the MBA and your digital product manager off international. Yeah. Does this role come about through those Phoenix Suns connections or? I just went online. Wow. Yeah. We, Richard in 2014, we lost support at a late in the elimination final. And all of a sudden, I had all this leave to take. And I hadn't planned for the tag net leave because we don't want nine games in a row. And it all came a bit unexpected. And yeah, like I was just trying to feel some time to be honest. And I was like, I don't know what jobs are available. Because I never thought I'd leave Richmond. I really enjoyed it. And that's I applied for one job and it was the MBA one. And I was like, well, that's pretty audacious. And never thought I'd get it. Did you ever want to go work? I think not in America. I know you'd been in when you're 19, but yeah, I think maybe one day sure. But I never thought it'd be realistic. And I just saw this role. And it was purely for the international products. And I say that because if you're in America, you had one suite of products like the app and website and things. But if you're international, every other country in the world got the same thing. Yeah. And I was using the app on the Xbox and the website and stuff of the NBA fans. So I knew it all really well. And I'm like, well, I can just step in and do this job pretty quickly. And I think that's why I got the job. Like they didn't have to train me in the layouts and their user experience and all that kind of stuff. And yeah, so I think it was like five for five months from applying to starting. Yeah, it's a serious process. Yeah, it was a serious process. And they didn't care that I was on the other side of the world. So I had to do interviews like two o'clock in the morning and all this kind of thing. And yeah, so really, you process it dragged out a bit because you have to worry about these and the last stuff at that stage. Yeah. What were kind of tasks or interviews, what were you doing to get the job? It was just three funer interviews. And the last one he would like through these like five NBA questions at me is like name three of the team Shaq played for. And I was like, I know all this, but I'm just freezing in the moment. And like, he goes, if I have 30 in one category, what is it most likely going to be at my points? So I think that's a pretty basic question. But I just wanted to know I wasn't a, you know, I actually knew my way around the basketball court. Yeah. And is this land you in New York? Is that what you worked? Well, the job I said in New York was actually in New Jersey, which is a bit disappointing. But that sounds like the fee for World Cup. Yeah, it's in New York. Yeah, no, it's literally right there like where that stadium is was where the NBA office is. So the NBA is an office in midtown in New York. Yeah. And it's great. It's where Adam Silver is and all that kind of thing. And it's a very like a small amount of team is there like the corporate guys are there. And a very selective amount of the digital team is there. But the vast majority of the staff throughout in New Jersey and this like business park. And I've done a great job of improving it now from what I hear. But yeah, back then it was pretty much as a business park. And I think I had the 45 minute pass out there which I didn't plan on doing. But you know, that's life. Was there many other Aussies at the time? There were, I came across two other Aussies while I was there. One was in our broader team and she was based in the city. And the other guy I was in a one-ship type role when he was also in the city. So I was the only Aussie out in the sticks. In the sticks. Yeah. No fans in New Jersey. You mentioned obviously you're managing NBA app league pass. What did the role look like when you're when you're in it? Yeah, so there were 14 different versions of the NBA app and league pass. So there's like two Xbox two PlayStation two Android two iOS all I can think. Yeah, right. So you just basically like just trying to keep them all up. And then we launched a like a Roku like Telstra TV app as well. So there's a team of us but like the day-to-day like bug issues and all that kind of stuff like it was down to me. So yeah, it was about a bunch of things about like if bugs were being assessed or things went down during games we had to like make sure we got it back up. And that would be you know during and games at nighttime things like that. But during the day we're also working on marketing for the the app. So like we know we'd speak to Canal plus in France and you know tab in Australia and all that kind of thing. To make sure we grow the usage of the app. Yeah. And then also like how do we get the most out of the app as a result? So you're also doing some UX. So it's like we started doing like in-language translations of notifications for like German. So like you know if you're starting with you get 41 points we'd send out a push notification in German. Yeah. And all those kind of things we send out. All our email marketing had to be translated 10 times, 10 different languages or that kind of thing. So like all the stuff that just kept the big machine going. Yeah. That was kind of the role that I've got. Was most of the stakeholders you're working with actually international? Not so much. No so the team that developed the international app they were all so they were in Long Island in New York. Yeah. an external development company, but most of my team would like would in the office, but then of course, like we had people based in Brazil, we had people in London, so always checking in with those guys at the same time. - Yeah, what do you think are the biggest differences you saw from like a year in the MBA versus Australia? And that can just be sport in general or basketball. I think you always hear the stereotype where five years, 10 years behind me. - Yeah, probably a little bit less. Definitely like the, a little bit less into the time frame. I think definitely at the time, like the sports entertainment aspect that a game was definitely ahead. And the technology stuff was way ahead, like the whole personalization and one user experience, like one kind of like custom of you type thing was definitely ahead. But yeah, I think the biggest thing I saw was just the money involved, like the money was just ridiculous. Like you know, when you're at that MBA level, the sponsorship deals are crazy. The professionalism is nuts. Like I was very fortunate to be able to go to some major events, like the MBA finals and all style weekend, all those kind of things. And yeah, like just the way you were taking care of the staff member, was just off the charts. Like you know, you'd stay at the four seasons and you'd have the full thing taken care of you and the assigned every 10 meters about MBA staff this way. So you didn't get lost and all that kind of stuff. Absolutely incredible, yes. So definitely like just what's involved that scale is huge. - Yeah, and did you connect much with those other leagues? Like Yana Fowls? - I didn't, too much. - No, like we were more so like kind of observing what they were doing. I like seeing, can we like pinch anything of what they were doing. But no, like in my role in particular, like cause I was so much more focused on the international stuff. I don't think those other leagues were too worried about international as much back then. I'm sure they are now. But no, I was really focused on the MBA on the basketball. - Now did you want to leave so quickly? Or? - Yeah, I mean, I look back at it now and at the moment you had that feeling of like, well people are gonna ask me that exact question, like what made wrong. Like what's, what, what, - It was a year and a half of that. - Yeah, a year and a half, yeah. Like what made wrong or what failed. But it was just a bit of a culture thing for me. Like the differences were also very much culture based. Like in the MBA over there, I was similarly like here. Like it's very hard to get in the job. And I just found that like it became this element for me of like the culture clash was a bit too high. It's like coming from Richmond, we were very flat structure, very team oriented, like really working for one another. And the MBA culture was not that. And it just got at the stage where it just wasn't for me in the end. And I look back and I said, well, I've been a month, I've got to go all the events, made some amazing experiences. Maybe I start looking for something back home. And I saw a job that I really was interested in and decided to make the move. But yeah, so like at a time it did, you do kind of feel like a little bit of a failure or whatever, like you go to the other side of the world and you don't make it or that kind of thing. But like I did really honestly believe that like, you know, I have to really want to love to come to work and really want to be fully invested. And I still meet today. And yeah, so I don't look back on the decision today saying I failed or anything. I looked at going, wow, I want an opportunity and got to experience everything. I wanted to experience from that moment. - No, I don't think any negatives. A lot of people I think want to go move to London in two years or so. It's basically the same thing. - Yeah. - Yeah. So you mentioned, yeah, you come back home, head of digital seven sport. You interviewing from the States or were you already come back? - No, I didn't. I had to tuck it in and we're probably obviously going to be able to do that. Yeah, so I went through that process. So I was able to very fortunately be able to land back in the country and start that job. And yeah, again, that was an organization looking to really up their game in this space, like coming from a traditional TV broadcast environment where everything was just TV. Like they were smart after realizing that was changing. And yeah, it got into an office in Melbourne that was just like some of the smartest, start smartest sport people you have, like all the producers and broadcasts and operators, like they've all been doing it for a very long time and know exactly what they're doing. And it really from a digital perspective was like, how can I come in and compliment that? Like how can we extend what we already have? And that was the big thing for the digital platform at our stage. It was really just like, we have this great broadcast rights but they everything is kind of just sits on broadcast. Like we just launched like the 710S app and the Olympics were coming up. So we started moving that digital space as well and it's subscription model. But like I looked at the footy slate and I was like, oh my god, we have footy coming out at the Wazoo, but we just had this really convoluted social strategy. So I kind of like merged everything into like 7 AFL on social it is today. And we went off to the races from there and of course racing existed and a few other things. But like we really just like built out a digital strategy and then worked, at the end of my time there was about how do we incorporate 7 plus into it? And yeah, just being around all these guys and being able to get to the 26 ding round final and work on the Olympics and Melbourne Cup and incredible events that Channel 7 has. Again, very fortunate to be across all those. Yeah, what do you think were the some of the key differences from like a broadcast digital objective versus you've been in club and league environment before that and since this job? Yeah, well when you're a club you are the broadcaster like for yourself, you have to come up with everything yourself, right? So it's very much like what piece of content can I do, what behind the scenes documentary can I do, or like anything. But at Channel 7 there was just so much stuff that got left on the cutting room floor because there was just, there's only such a finite amount of time on broadcast, but on digital you can do whatever you want. So at those like club filming days when they come in preseason from an AFL perspective and you just have access to 10, 20 players and most of the time they're just sitting around doing nothing like waiting for their time to get on camera. So we would just go and film some stuff with them and it's all sounds rudimentary now. All like tack in some tack on some questions at the end of the actual broadcast filming. And then use that for social roll it out around theme rounds or planted ahead and schedule ahead or then use them to 7 plus. And yeah, like the companion shows and like the second screen viewing at 7 plus, became that was like the inclination of all that all started with this experience of like, "Oh, we've got the 710S app, we've got the 7LinpyS app, how can we just get more in that digital space?" - Yeah, were there any situations where like a broadcast deals up for negotiation, you thought you might lose it or you're about to get something and it meant you had to start planning for, this is now gone or we're about to get this massive deal. - It's a little more. - When it came to broadcast rights, I was definitely at the end of that agreement so I would find out at the very end of the front of it. - But I feel like in that situation, I would like to think you guys are across some of those negotiations at least plan. - Yeah, no, they would bring us in and like, what are your hopes for here? What do you want to do, what are you going to get access to? And especially when you deal with like, you know, governing bodies like IOC, everything is very legal. And so like, there are limits around like, you know, for a Facebook, for example, like we couldn't post like a same bolt globally. We had to be very geo-tapped and things like that. So like, those were limitations that you worked around. But yeah, like, seven Olympics, the Rio Olympics 2016, like the whole team was based in Sydney, you probably had about 40-ish staff and just 20 people per hour shift and like, and just this content team running 24/7 for three weeks. And you know, we broke the Telstra data record when the boomers were playing the dream team. And all that kind of thing. So like an amazing moment. We followed all the rules and to the degree with that staff, we had Facebook Australia's highest ever post and was just saying, "Bolt winning is third, "gold, medal and row." I think it had something crazy, like 11 million views. And I think at that stage, there was only like 12 million Australians on Facebook. So, you know, we had this great penetration of content and stuff. So again, at that scale, and those kind of rights and things that you have to do, like, amazing career opportunities. Definitely, definitely. You love winning awards. There's another couple here. Again, I'm not sure I could read much of that, but it looks great on LinkedIn. So, we know of Australian sports commissions, best digital coverage of a sports event in 2016 and '17. I imagine 16 was the Olympics. I think so. 17, what, AFL? Horse racing or something? I love being AFL. Or tennis. How does that all get awarded? Well, Australian sports commission awards happen. I think that only happened a couple of weeks ago now. But yeah, like, in my role, I don't get invited. Like, the boss is getting invited. And you just hear about the next day, like, "Oh great, cool. We're on the way." Yeah. You still played a part. Yeah, you're a team. Can't deny that. So, post-7 sport, off to Brisbane Lions, and other bit of travel. Yeah. You are from Melbourne, originally, too, right? So, you bouncing around. Does this role come about through AFL connections? Again, I just applied online. Like, it was an opportunity that I looked at. There's a lot of people that wouldn't keep applying and get at least jobs. I feel like, even for me personally, every job I've got since I was at Mac is, has been knowing someone. Yeah. Well, like, you know, if you didn't know, then you'd just have a crack, right? Yeah. And I think that that's the only apply for four jobs. And I think I was four for four, so I was going all right. But that opportunity was just like, I just knew at that stage, like, footy was my favourite job. And the Brisbane Lions opportunity came up. And it was a bit more about career growth, like what I wanted to do. Like, being in that seven environment for eight months, I was like, wow, I'm really now enjoying the media side and the strategy around broadcast. Because you'd be working with these producers and you'd sit and hear the strategy around the planning of the broadcast and everything you're trying to achieve. And it was just like, it was just that next level above what someone in digital team could, you know, could deliver. And when I was originally working in the media team, so I worked alongside the media guys to get a bit of exposure to that. But obviously, I had my own job to do and that kind of thing. But I think it's just like, as your career evolves, your passions and what you want to do in your career can change too. And having that exposure to Channel 7 really made me want to get that media strategy side. And yeah, Brisbane was last in the latter. We lost 10 out of our first 11 games when I was up there. So there wasn't also a lot of demand for the role, I assume. And maybe I got lucky in that sense. But-- So you joined halfway through the year? Yeah, I think I joined around eight or nine. And so yeah, it's-- And this was GMM of communications, I should have mentioned as well. Yeah, so I had to look at the media marketing digital design team up there. And yeah, it was tough going, right? like Brisbane, the city had turned off AFL, the team was doing well. But it was just like, again, I've been a Richmond in a very similar situation. I joined after a one and 10 start, so I almost repeated that. And you could see the building blocks were there. There were some young players there. And you know, no idea what was gonna happen happened in terms of winning all these flags, but you could see like the building blocks in the road back was starting to begin. They put some really talented people there in terms of like a CEO and Chris Fagan and David Noble, like the great opportunities in the building blocks. And they had a number on pick. So there was plenty of upside. And yeah, great opportunity to get back into footy, great opportunity to get to a senior role, do some media work. And when you weren't winning, like you were kind of more so asked to do your own media. And I think my digital background like led to that. So you know, we like lent you into things we could control, like board our podcast back, do a lot more interviews that we could. And also like being a Melbourne person myself, like I really try to lean into the Melbourne audience as well. So I try to get us onto SEM and Harold Sunrigli and do all these kind of things to get us noticed down here. Even if we weren't playing too well. - You mentioned the Melbourne connection. So you created and produced the feature length of the Moorage as well, which aired on Fox Footy, which is basically talking about Fitzroy and the Bears and the Lions. Was that something that was like a passion project of yours that you thought because the club isn't going so well on the field, let's talk about something else? - Yeah, so I think like when I got up there, like you look around from a narrative point of view and go, what can we tell? Well, the team's not winning very well. Some great local Queensland stories, but that's not a national audience. So the one story that Brisbane Lions has is that the only team that's ever merged is the unique thing they have about them. And so I did some research and I really couldn't find anything that had gone into detail about it in a narrative form, anything longer than like a 20 minute piece of content on YouTube somewhere. Again, 30 for 30 wasn't around just yet. And the Fox Sports documentary world hadn't taken over. So it's like, well, let's just do it ourselves. And then we had a bit of like free time as a team at the end of 2018. And end of seasons when you can start to do your planning. And I spoke into the footies guys and they told us like we were likely getting lucky Neil and we're quadrars there and we thought we were going to do some other signings and have a better year in 2019. So I went down to the Fox Footy in that off season and I just chatted to the team and I was like, look, if we go and make this docker, I think we're going to do better next year. I think we're going to be relevant in the media landscape. Yeah, hopefully we're going to make the finals and that'll be a great story. Like if we make this docker, will you run it? And they said, yep. And they're very supportive. They get access to their studio, their talent. And so yeah, I just got to go to a script. Like what does the history look like? What can we actually tell with stories and with video and imagery, sorry? So yeah, like I started hunting down old news footage from Channel Nine and Channel 10 and Seven of the day when the merge happened, we spoke to Kevin Murray, a club legend and we just really tried to tell a story of like the Fitzroy early days and what happened there and then get into the Brisbane Bears stories because that's often overlooked. And yeah, like it's again, like this digital content background, like I knew I could tell a story, we just needed to get the team involved and we did this all while having our first finals season in like 12 years, whatever it was. So we were super busy and we're able to deliver that. Fox, we're really happy with it. And yeah, it's still on, I think it's still on KIO. It's definitely on YouTube. And yeah, it's, yeah, it's, I'm really-- Did you narrate it? We didn't have an erasure actually. No, we helped set it out in a little late and everything. But no, I'm really proud of that. And yeah, I think it's been a bit more relevant since the club has won some flags. And people have found it again on YouTube and things like that. But yeah, that's again, that's a piece of working and look back on your career and we're like, yeah, really proud of how they came up and hopefully it informed for some people. When the merge happened, I think I was nine or 10s so I learned some new stuff again about it. And the funniest thing about that was that we're going for the footage from Channel 9. And we found this kid who was seven or eight when crying Fitzroy fan went to happen. And I was like, I wonder if he's still a member. Because I was running out of the membership database looked him up and he was, whatever was 22 years later. So we went down to, we got him to a game. We actually interviewed him and showed him the footage and everything. And he's like, wow, this is embarrassing. But he did a great chat with us. And I think that got in the final cut. Yeah, that's just-- I thought I did that with Roger Federer. Well, the Federer, I think recently at the time, they got some ball kid that-- Yeah, they do have to be-- Yeah, yeah, yeah. --fording back. Yeah. But again, that's just a power sport. I'd say 40 in the narrative and everything. And this club had been terrible. It's moving to stay. Donald is staffed during his years. They won a few flags, yes. But he still supported this team 22 years later and had a liguier and everything. So it's just a power sport, you know? So good. What do you think of the biggest differences from a Queensland sporting market to an AFL dominated big market? Your own enemy territory, that's for sure. Yeah, it's the Brisbane Broncos are the number one story. And so you're up against the Broncos. So like, we would often have to work out media appearances around the Broncos schedule early on. And anything the Broncos did was the back page. Like, they were the calling with a Brisbane or like, and a staff. So whenever we were on the back page, we were thrilled, especially early on. And also, too, like you just in a market from a fan interest point of view, a government point of view where when the team isn't winning, like, it's, you know, it's just not the natural thing to do. And Brisbane are a city of supporters outside of the Broncos typically, that they can be a little bit fair weather. So like the Queensland Raw, they might get 50,000 when they're winning and then 7,000 when they're losing. The Brisbane Bullets, same thing. And all the club, like, teams are around there. So we saw that with the Lions, right? Like, when we weren't winning, we might have 13,000, and people turn up. And then we were winning. The place was sold out. So yeah, having to understand, it's like anything, anything you can't do. It's like a market. Yeah, it is. Any new market, you have to understand what that's about. And when you're in 40 in Queensland or any challenger market and challenger code, like you have to really start at the grassroots community, on of the work they're doing, like, pop them up a bit, and really like pump it at a tie. Because they're keeping the code going there. And like, female Queensland participation, for example, in Queensland is off the charts for AFL. And there's all these local heroes that you want to really take care of, because there's the ones who's going to keep the game going in the downtime. Because right now, I assume everyone's playing AFL in Brisbane, and everything's going great with the Lions doing well. But, you know, Sport is cyclical, and that downturn will come again. So, you know, how can you invest in these people who are going to make sure they're there even during the downtime? But yeah, really challenging, really interesting. And yeah, when we won, it was great. We were to talk at a time. We knocked the Broncos off the back page. It was amazing. And I remember my first presser I did up there. We had one person turn up. And my last presser I did up there, we had to have it out in the field, because we couldn't fit people in the room. So, that was the big change while I was dreamy. I had a good year last year, Brisbane. That year, right. Broncos, men's, women's, and the Lions. Yeah. Yeah. Flying. The other one I just want to ask when Queensland is, was there much media collaboration between the Suns and the Lions? I know there's, again, rivalry. Yeah. When you're trying to battle against the NRL. Yeah. We would team up from, like, obviously, Q-clash. There's definitely working alongside of those guys. And from an A-Fell perspective, and like, Q-Mail and season launches. But, you know, after that, it's like, if we'd arrive, or we'd arrive, you know, you want to beat him, and I want to beat you. So, that goes hand in hand. But yeah, definitely, you worked to get on the big events. And Q-clash was always a big event. And, you know, you were looking up there with the Q-Mail and things like that. So, that was great. That was great, guys, to work with. Yeah. Now, you come back to Melbourne, and part of a startup that's unfortunately failed now. The Melbourne Rebels is a GM stakeholder relations. How does this role come about, and how different is it going into a startup environment? You're going to be shocked when I say I applied online? Not really now. That's what happened. Yeah. It was an opportunity to get back into sport, like, you know, post-COVID, like, think just the whole thing had changed, and in terms of getting into sport. And I'd seen a lot of my friends, either make redundancy, or step down, all that kind of stuff, and their hours, things like that. And it was just a big time of uncertainty. Honestly, in the industry, you know, before that role, I was chatting to someone in like a TV broadcast role, and then that stopped about an opportunity, and they just said, "Well, we don't know if sport's going to exist in two weeks' time." So, like, I can't offer you a job. Like, that was a level of, like, you know, questionable, you know, status about everything was. Thanks to COVID. So, like, coming off the back of that, it was an opportunity to get back into sport, and there were just less opportunities, but this looked like, again, to me, it looked really interesting, because it was a similar Queensland, and like, the team was not known for necessarily doing well, challenge brand, challenge code, and, you know, great facilities, Amy Park, a lot of opportunities there. So, it was a similar thing, like, come in, like, you know, can you digital background, can you make our own content, can we, like, bring up our audience and things like that, and the opportunity presented itself, I didn't know the code that well, so I also had to learn about the code as well. And yeah, it was a, it was a, we, the team was struggling on fields, so that makes a little bit of things a little bit harder. But, you know, again, we had incredibly passionate, skill, dedicated people putting that in, and it came back to that similar content, like, when you're not winning, how does that, like, crowd and environment, like, really rack with you? And we had incredibly passionate fans, who turn up every week. It just went a lot of them. But then you go out in the weekend, and they'd all be playing on a Saturday. So, from a club point of view, how do we can throw that into Bums on Seats, and like, kind of thing, and, yeah, I left out for a couple of years, and the club, Sally, no longer exists. But again, it's a really cool people to work with. You know, we had people coming in out of the Walla Vs all the time. People coming out of the Walla Roo's, and they're really great to work with, and the opportunities there to work with Stan, and all this kind of thing, like, from a media and stakeholder point of view, really great, letting point. Yeah, what was that experience like being an exact team member? I know you're, you know, doing exec as well at the Lions, but yeah, different was that. Well, again, it's just like all the issues we spoke about, like when you're on the exec, like the issue of people, like Bumble and Seeds or Sponsor or whatever, that's everybody's issue when you're on the exec. Like you all have to work to the strategy, you're reporting up to a board, and also from a Rebels point of view, they worked alongside very closely with Robbie Victoria from a governing state governing body. So we also had to work with those guys for the greater good of the game. So you needed to kind of like take a step back and really have that like, you know, 30 foot view of not just you can't just look at your department when you're on the exec, you really have to be out of it. I have an overview of how everybody's trying to work together. - Makes sense. Now your most recent role, basketball.com.au, General Manager, did you apply for this one as well? - Yes. (laughing) - Getting good at applying. - Yeah, no, clearly. It was just an amazing opportunity on paper, like the ad was actually very generic. It didn't go into too great a detail, but it was all about can you lead this like basketball media business and I was like, hell, yeah, I can't. This is a-- - This ties into your passions of basketball. - Yeah, definitely about media landscape, digital first, journalism, basketball. And like again, the ad was kind of generic, but I got the feeling it was working for the NBL group and for Larry Kesselman, so the opportunity just looked too good to turn down. And that's what it was. And so like I knew what I wanted it to be. So in interview process, I like made up this like canva dock about 15 slides or what I thought it could be. And it turned out that was definitely what they wanted it to be. So that worked out quite well. And yeah, got an opportunity where just really passionate people about basketball, really passionate about growing the game in this country. Like it's, you know, I think basketball, it's kind of like definitely on the up at the moment. The NBLs are incredibly well. Will it ever reach the AFL and RL levels? Who knows? So it's always gonna be punching a bit. And the opportunity to be able to help grow the game from that perspective and tell stories that normally tell more kind of thing. Like, yeah, how could I say no? Yeah, now it's powerful. I know I spoke to you before we jumped on as well about football 360 and my passionate interest in soccer and saying it's very similar to these. And I think to tell the story about everything in basketball, not only in Australia, but what's going on internationally. If you're a basketball fan, that's your place you go to. 100% and I think like even in my interview, I think I spoke about keep up as a similar concept like previously. So like, you know, how'd it been number four and football done before? And this was like a version of keep up the basketball and then the football 360 guys are doing the same thing. They're doing really well, shout out to them. And yeah, so really the concept was like, we have so many Aussies playing around the world. So many Aussies playing locally and coming up through the game who simply don't get the attention they deserve. And if they were an AFL player and a real cricket tennis, they would likely get the national profiles and what kind of thing. But that print, you know, square inch was just not available for basketball. So we were able to come in and do that from a digital perspective. And then we just had fun with the format. So we like created this like digital magazine that like just shape form, like shapeshifted every month or whenever we're going to do it because, you know, it was just a bit of fun. So we just created ourselves and made it whatever we wanted to be. We had it out around awards, did all this kind of stuff. And yeah, being able to go in and cover the game from like under 16s up and just give, you know, the spotlight and the shine for these kids who probably deserve it but don't get it. It was an amazing opportunity. And I think like the best example that we have is Satya Fagan who 17-year-older from Victoria. She was heavily courted by 40 colleges in America. She got down to like a final three of choices. I know it was the biggest colleges in the US. And just like by checking in with her, her mum and her agent, we were able to sit alongside her until the story. We broke the story alongside USC, the college that she ended up choosing. We were able to do the big feature, worked with the agency, worked with Nike, worked with everybody to be able to break this story together. I look back at that and I say like that's an amazing, you know, profile feature journey we went alongside her. And she's probably going to make more money than like 70% of AFL and real players next year and nobody in this country would have heard of it. So that's just the scale and now over there and now in college basketball that has. And so we were just really, really proud of what we did with her and we ended up doing a TBC with her. And she was, so we put her in TBC, Mitsubishi. And yeah, so we were just like, that's just an example of like this kid is going to be the next big thing when moving basketball. She might be the W and B A number one pick in two years time. But now you'll have a background of three to four years of knowing her story thanks to the platform. So really proud of things like that. Yeah, good storytelling for sure. How big is the organization in terms of staff? Like I know a lot of these other previous roles have had a lot bigger organizations like Virginia is quite small. Yeah, it was a startup, right? So start up everything start up in every facet is four full-timeers, a couple of contractors and freelancers who contributed to us, had Andrew Bogett previously and then now running with Jason Yaday and Beck Cole. And apart from that, a few volunteers. And a few like we chatted as people in the sports grad community come on board as well. But yeah, it's a pretty lean business. And nearly everybody we spoke to from a brand perspective, or any externally, when you said you only had four people over there. Oh wow, like we thought it was so many more. I'm like, yep, we're all working hard. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. This was a bit different to you. Your general manager, you're not so much on marketing comms, it's a bit more generalistic about everything business. Running a business. How hard was that for you or how much was it something you enjoyed as well? Because you're looking more at other parts of business and probably tapping into all these skills you've learned over the journey as well. Yeah, I really, I really enjoy it. And the sense was you got to understand the whole business. So it was like we'd go from a content meeting at 10 AM into like a meeting with, let's say, the NBA, all the NBA at 10.30 and then at 11.30, you're pitching to a brand saying, hey, come on board and sponsor this thing. So I really enjoyed the variety. And also like leading a team and keeping everybody connected because we had a couple of people in Melbourne and everybody else was remote. Just like sitting on their couch from home. And when you're working that remote environment, so later it's really important to stay connected and check in. So yeah, I really enjoy the variety of the role and it's learning and understanding the business more and the business of business as well. And yeah, learning the commercial realities of a startup and sponsorship and marketing of especially in a sports landscape these days. Hopefully it's going to add to the old repertoire. Now away from sport, something you're really passionate about is the work you do for VR Mobilize. So your chief marketing officer and executive director. You worked with Ned Brockman and his agency. And part of this is you've helped raise $7 million over two events. I'll let you take the floor as the background of this story and then the passion behind it as well. Yeah, cool. So at the Melbourne Rebels, I was also responsible for the community department. And our charity of choice was VR Mobilize. And I was a homeless as charity. I didn't know anything about the space at the time. So I thought, well, I'm head of a community. I better go and check it out. So we went along for a session with the team there. And we went out into the streets of Melbourne and it's middle of winter. It's pitch black. It's cold. And the whole thing is you go up and chat to people on the street and you turn up with some food or some clothes, whatever it is. But the main part of the interaction is the conversation. And yeah, naturally, it's kind of nervous. You're a bit daunting all that kind of thing. But I went into one session with that. Chatted to some really interesting people, learned a lot from them. Even if it was only five minutes, you learn about their story. And I said to myself, like, I want to do more of that. So I caught up with CEO. His name was Noir at the time. His name's still Noir. The CEO is still Noir. And I just said, how can I get more involved? And I don't necessarily want to be the one going on the streets all the time. But from a business perspective, how can I help? And they had an option. They had an opening on the board. And so I said, we'd love to do that. And he just said, great. We'd love to have you on. But this guy's just running across the country for us from Perth to Sydney. So can you give me a couple of weeks? So I said, sure, not a problem. And then-- And you know what that was? I'll learn very quickly. Yeah, what it was. So yeah, Ned Brockman, this guy, he'd run previously. He'd done 50 Ks in 50 days around Sydney a year or two earlier, raising money for the Red Cross. And I think he raised about 75 grand. So again, incredible story. But I haven't heard of that. So it really was like, how can you get some more exposure for this kind of effort? And he teamed up with an agency at the Bursty, which is a really cool group at a Melbourne and Walker. James is there in Walker, one of the co-founders. And yeah, so they teamed up and they did a little PR side of things for Ned this time around. We're on some amazing sponsors. And I think like he took off in Perth, and not too many people knew about it. He did a bit of PR. But as he just got across the country, and his social team kicked in, his social work himself kicked in, but also the content and marketing from Bursty as well along the way, like he just kind of blew up and got incredibly popular. And this story just took over. And when he got the bond I think he'd become a bit of a national treasure by that stage, like even just running along. And he ended up raising $2.3 million from that run for us. And all of a sudden it was just like, from my perspective, like I thought I was joining this charity of like six volunteers and just like helping out. And now we had like $2 million in the bank, like two weeks later, and was like, all right, things are getting real. Were you in Sydney when this happened? No, I wasn't enough in the team yet. The team were nowhere in a team where, and yeah, I look back at that going, I really wish I lost, because it was an incredible time. But then when I left the Rebels, I'd just had it to nowhere. And I was like, hey, really more interested in this space, like kind of come along and help out. Turn up joining the team there. And then, yeah, learn about the homeless space and a whole new sector, fundraising, brand communications, marketing partnerships, going to a whole new field having to learn a whole part of the industry that I wasn't aware of. so I found out really good challenge and really interesting and also just about homelessness itself and how many affecting it's how many people and you know Overline causes underlying causes for that kind of thing But as we moved into the second year their net wanted to do another event And it was Ned's uncomfortable challenge. So he was gonna try and break the world record to run a thousand miles Running around a track in Sydney And then also on the back half of that when that finishes like Australia can go and do their own challenge So do something uncomfortable for ten days And yeah to keep you very quick like We went to the track for those ten days and up being 12 days in Ned attempted to break the world record and just seeing this man put himself through just The most intense pain As to let a smile on his face and come out and do it. It was just amazing to be there and this was really like a sports marketing event in itself Like we had a live tiktok stream. We had brands involved. We had talent the ship boys were hosting You know the live shows twice a day We go into the studio to help run the live shows and do a live tally's and what kind of thing. It was really an incredible event to be a part of He didn't end up breaking the record, but who cares? He ended up During that period of that month we ended up raising my 4.3 or 4.5 million dollars for homelessness Which is gonna it just help so many people And the team at Bursty and the mobilized team just an incredible job of bringing it all to life. So I look back at that Ned's uncomfortable challenge when you ran around Sydney and the hours As a team we put in and what we're able to do and all the The cool stuff we did for raising awareness around homelessness and that's like in my mind That's alongside like an Olympics or whatever from a career point of view So I'll never forget that is an incredible opportunity and Yeah, they've since begun on to Ned did another uncomfortable challenge last year, but he didn't participate Thank god he took a break. I think they raised another million bucks Then now the charity choice for triple J for hottest 100 and raising another million bucks out of there. So they don't really well And yeah, I think just power of content and storytelling and amazing ambassadors like Ned. Yeah, I've done it incredible for My home as a space in this country. So go on to go on the team everybody there. Love it I did watch the documentary. I think it's on Netflix. Hey, yeah run. Yeah I probably watched it six months ago and it was very impressive Yeah Just what he put his body through to do that Yeah, yeah out of this world to show you can probably push yourself a lot a lot harder than you think you can I know 100% yeah, and no, but very similar and So when it came to like the uncomfortable challenge part for the everyday person to do it No, I said no, I think I'll do 10 kilometers a day He's like you're pretty fit aren't you and I'm like yeah, he's like I want to do I want you to half half marathon a day for 10 days in a row I was like I can't do that Anyway, I did four Four in a row, which I was really happy with the physio told me I was gonna like snap in half by wind of the So but again, that was just challenging and pushing yourself I'd never done half marathon. I never run 10k before But it was just the mindset of like hey, you can do a lot more than you think you can And just being around those people who push you and getting into it like I was really thankful that opportunity as well Because you're right. We can push ourselves a lot further than we can Yeah, and hopefully like if you watch run or read net spoke and things like that. That's what you take away from it What an awesome experience Diabetic away to more problems that you faced problems that listeners face Firstly on challenges in industry. What do you think makes it difficult to get a job in sport? Just a competition like honestly, there's the competition first of all that if it does go to market You're probably up against three four hundred people There's the competition in the hidden market like a lot of the jobs don't get advertised So you're up against people who have networks And then breaking into it in the first place like how do you break into it? Do you try and do the network? Network approach. Do you try and Cradle your content yourself these days and I think like you know you guys sports ground and do a great opportunity of breaking a lot down But yeah, it's just a competition. Yeah, because it's pretty heated Definitely Career direction wise. How did you decide this was the career path you wanted to take? Yeah, I as I said before I really struggled with it at first And it just took going along to a session where like Reading someone else's passion experience made me think hold on. I had that too So yeah, it was kind of like an eye-opening moment that I can't believe I'd go to some marketing conference to realize it But yeah, it's uh, I don't think it's always it like unless you really are passionate about something to begin with and when you're trying to break into sport It can be hard to find out what you want to do But yeah, the more like Specialized roles than ever are being hired in sport. So you know nutritionists and designers and Accountants and all those kind of things. So there's many ways into sport now They're not just the generalist jack of all trade. Yeah Making in sport when you've landed your jobs through the course of your career. What do you think this made you stand out the most? Uh, well probably that passion and expertise in that area You know, I think like Because the competition is so hard if you can come in and talk about the latest trend you've done your research into the the organization But also just your passion comes across in an interview like that's really hard Um to turn down as a hire Definitely um We also like to speak a lot of our influences mentors in your career Who have been some of the biggest ones in your end? Uh, more so like I think people who early on in my career in particular like Addesson and there was a John O'Simpson nice workout before Was a great person about a lean on and get some guidance through from there um, and then Move through Richmond out of first boss who really showed me the way of The afl industry Um and how to navigate all those challenges because he was dealing with all the media narratives at a big club that you know You know, you're not really exposed to him the daily Um, and you can see how he could just handle things or create concepts or whatever it was like you know just The mastery of the industry and the stuff that he was really doing like was very impressive So I've been learning from him was great um, then I've had you know my sisters always someone I've been lean on for advice And then a good friend of mine um as well who I helped start that events business with James so those kind of people I'm also looked to it is not any flashy names or like that um does it seem to me? No, it's more about people who like kind of um Like stepping in in my life at the time with the right advice Yep More so than about you know, speak to that person or do that it was more about have you think like rethink your approach or Have a look at a different way that kind of thing Yeah speaking of advice and mentoring your part of the sports grad method program as a mentor So you've been doing this for a little bit of time now working with Thomas Birkbeck Can you just explain I suppose your first exposure to sports grad Relationship with a Rubin and then the willingness to be able to support Thomas But in any case anyone that's doing the program. Yeah, well, I think with everybody at sports grad You just can't miss Rubin online anywhere So I think I probably came across him that way I think we had a coffee four or five years ago when he was I think he was asking for just like recommendation or advice or something And I said I'd be able to catch up um and just saw like what he was doing is just so incredible people want to break into the industry Um being a little bit um older When I was doing this myself like you had to learn by failure like you had to go and try and fail and um as I said like I was going for these jobs So I knew I could do but I kept missing out um and I kind of just had the people in my life to talk to whereas now Like you've got these handbooks and other people in cohorts and all this kind of stuff and people you can look to and just be like What have you found with this and you have this network that simply wasn't there? Um when I was trying to crack into it so that's really cool Um and I think that's a great opportunity for everybody doing that now Um and yeah, it's I think it's really back on sports grad members now to kind of How do you stand out from that in that crop now on top of everybody doing the same thing um so that's our camera cross Sports grad and Ruben for a year ago Um just a big believer in what he was trying to do And then Thomas I think just reached out. I think by an intro from Ruben um and we just started having a chat and he's not media space And that's something I've been doing um and just someone if you know Thomas he's just very keen He wants to get crack in the industry. He knows exactly what he wants to do. He knows how he wants to get there And he just turns up and he shows up and I think he was down in Melbourne a couple months ago Um for a conference and a few other things with a lot of volunteering in his community Um like working regionally in Queensland like he does like it's it's hard work Um to get to kind of the attention that you want to but like he does it by showing up and asking for advice and and turning up to his event So he's super talented. I know he'll be out of cracking to something he wants to do very quickly Um and he's also got this skill set so like working was been pretty easy Um because he knows what he wants to do. He's following the right approach Um and yeah, can't see won't be too long before he cracks into something he really wants to get done Love it and thank you for your support with him as well We mentioned as well when you came in that you you are got Kevin I think on board doing some work with buswara.com that he is that right? Didn't in the end but um had a chat with him But you mentioned that with him popping up consistently on tic-toc and the work he's doing That gave the opportunity and for context Kevin's working by the scenes a little bit with sports grad and also his member Yeah, but you won't speak about that as well. Yeah, sure So like he kept popping up on my LinkedIn and he kept popping up with his like PDFs about what's happening in tic-toc this week in sport Um and a buswara.com do that was an opportunity for us where we saw as tic-toc being something we didn't have the time for being a small business Um and then under staff so we looked for people who could help us out with that And the fact that he just turned up week after week the repetition the consistency Like that showed to me like he really cares He knows what he's talking about And that's what led to us having a conversation So like I knew I needed to find someone who had tic-toc experience and he kind of just kept appearing So I was like well, I don't have to do this. This is great. He's come to me um and I think like In that world if you can keep appearing in people's fees and showing up with the consistency and expertise like that's how you're going to get found Yeah, definitely consistency is the key Uh Last ones coming up from my and so if you have to go back in time and someone said I'll give you a million dollars If you can learn a job in marketing and comms and you've got 30 days What's your approach? Uh Take every coffee you possibly can uh, I would do as much content as I can I would probably like do my own LinkedIn ads without myself Uh, maybe some Twitter ads because the last time We cheap these days and don't get any million bucks like a maize will invest right Makes sense That's for the first person that's actually said that well there you go Just get in front as many people as you can and it doesn't need to be in person it can also be in the feed And yeah, it's you just have to you have to show up with your expertise like I've actually I've actually received ads of people Providing themselves on LinkedIn Um, I was like wow, that's clever like if I needed you I might actually want to do it um, but yeah That's hanging in front because like again you're competing with so many other people. How do you stand out? And if I saw a LinkedIn promoted feed in an ad for myself or on Twitter ad Or Instagram whatever it is. I'm like, oh, this person is really trying really caring Um, I'm only got 30 days. So let's spam the feed. Let's get in there. Love it Biggest pinchy moment working in support Uh definitely playing basketball on Oracle and Reno in the middle of the NBA finals How does that all come about? I know you would have been when you were at the NBA. I'm a yeah, I was at the NBA. Yep So in between games they have Media days where they invite the media to come on and have a game And my boss was like do you want to join in the media game and I dropped everything and said yes So we got that up. I'll see what you're gonna say like it was just shoot around But you're actually playing a game against other Yeah, you know like maybe 30 40 media reps like a little people you may know like trade Kirby and David Miniman and a few other people Um, and yeah, so we all just turned up But I didn't know that was happening until like after I turned up in sandwiches go So like I turned up in like running shoes and like richman shorts What's going to stop so I looked ridiculous Um, and so we the opportunity came up again in Cleveland So I went to like the local foot locker whatever and actually kid him myself out in parts couple So thankfully uh no injuries or anything But um, yeah when I posted a photo as my old from a richman was like yeah Take all getting the brand value out of all these uh, you know Short short appearances. I like well that was not the plan, but yeah, we're gonna part. Uh super cool Um, what do you think the life would look like if you hadn't pursued a career in sport? Uh, well before sport I was doing like IT sales and like phone sales Um, so probably something IT related as I said before I passionate about IT in sport and I didn't really realize it But yeah, probably something IT related all the not for profit maybe all the not for probably yeah very good point Um, and the last one is the question from our last guest So the last person we had was Luke Addard from William Sanford Eclub in the commercial team Uh, he asked what do you think the VFL and VFL W look like in five 10 years time? Yeah, I'll think about the training here actually and I think five years ago if you'd said there'd be a semi national competition of the VFL You'd probably like Really, okay? Uh, so let's continue that theme. Let's go with a national Reserves competition. So the VFL and its form may not exist But if a national reserves competition where you West Coast playing richmen in the reserves and the San Alan club still exists Correct. Yeah. Yeah, that that would be the VFL probably but this is like a national I feel reserves. Yeah That's because I'm it's been floated for a very long time. So I'm not sure we're telling it back I'm sure there are many I thought with your background and footy that you were many things holding it back But uh, yeah, let's say a national I feel reserves competition And the last one for me is what is the one question you'd like to leave our next guest? Uh, so I thought about it from the train and the way in um and What about which is the next board to have like a formula one style drive to survive like glow up from a documentary and content content point of view What do you think it would be? Well, great question. What's left? Uh, everybody's done it. Um, could it be I don't know. I'm trying to think of why I would say as well. Yeah I think golf has done it tennis have done it tennis. Yeah, formula one. We won. Don't know. There you go Well, the next guest is a national I'm hoping to answer that again Well, that that's all from me Anthony and just want to say it's been a pleasure getting to know more about your journey Your stories some very sound advice. Uh, I think listen is gonna take a lot of way From the conversation um and yeah, I'm sure we'll see more around sports ground circles with your mentorship and maybe rube We'll get you on a panel as well So yeah, thanks again for your time and see you soon. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks. I mean