#346 Maggie Freleng with Amanda Busse

Can superstars even exist the way they used to? 2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture, where we still consume things in community. Everybody wanted to be Beyonce at that point. Ah, I don't think we'll ever see another Beyonce. What does it mean to be black and eat in America? You will never make me feel bad for being a black girl or for being a black American girl ever. From music to food to the conversations shaping black culture right now, therapy for black girls is bringing it all to the mic. Listen to therapy for black girls on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff You Should Know, and we're submitting our most sciencey episodes for your peer review with our new stuff you should know doing science playlist. Out now, you want to know about Occam's razor? Simplest explanation is usually the right one. We got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is, ever since the first time you saw Jurassic Park, we'll come on down. So, there's still a nice pot of tea, everybody. Turn down the gas on your Bunsen burner and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the Stuff You Should Know, do in science playlist on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, Here's the Thing. I talk to composer Mark Shaman. It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Robin Ive is always a great hang and director Morgan Neville. Film School teaches you all the wrong things about making documentary. What do you want to say? Documentary is all about your ear. What do you hear? I feel like my job is listening really, really hard. Listen to Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When Amanda Bussey was 17, her home life was spinning out of control. Her father was abusive to her and her siblings and her mother had just died in a car wreck. So when Larry DeClu asked her to run away with him, she jumps at the chance, even though he was nearly twice her age. In my mind, he was kind of like a superhero, you know, he took me away from all the abuse and stuff. But soon after she moved in with Larry, she started to notice suspicious behavior. One night after they went to bed, I remember being woke up by someone banging on the window and they wanted Larry to go hunting with them. Okay, so it didn't make no damn sense to me. He didn't come back until 11 o'clock that morning. Not long after that, she and Larry were out driving with Larry's niece, Melissa. Melissa starts to jump and up and down. This is where it happened. This is where it happened on Larry. I'm like, what the heck? What are you talking about? What's the matter, you know? I didn't know what the heck was going on. That's when I realized something happened. Amanda didn't put the pieces together until a few years later when to her surprise, she was arrested for the brutal murder of a local woman. My name is Amanda Bussie. I was convicted for a second degree murder. My spin incarcerated for almost 20 years. From Lava for Good, this is wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling. Today, Amanda Bussie. Amanda Bussie was born February 12, 1980, in Sullivan, Missouri, to Lisa and Kenny Bussie. She's the oldest of their five kids. Although they grew up poor in rural Missouri, Amanda remembers there were some good times. Like my Christmas, you know, my dad would take us out and get the row of snow. We'd all just laugh, you know. He put us on the sled and pushes down the hill or he'd go down with us whenever he was younger. We were very close during our adolescence. This is Amanda's aunt, Mary Paine. She's Amanda's mom's sister and actually two-year younger than Amanda. The two of them grew up more like siblings than aunt Nice. We would go to church together on Sundays. We would walk home together after school or my dad had a furniture store. So her mother, my sister, worked in the store with my dad sometimes. So we would walk to the furniture store and there was a back room. So we would choreograph dances and perform them for our family. We always would go on adventures in the woods, making tree houses, creating time capsules. We were both heavily involved in music. So we were required to get there a lot. She loved to get up in church and sing. She really connected to music and used that as an outlet, I believe. That is an outlet for what was happening in Amanda's home life, which was challenging for a young girl. It was a pretty hard life. My mom was sick, grown up. She had congestive heart failure and thyroid problems. And she just kept gaining weight, gaining weight, and eventually she just wasn't able to get around and do much with herself. She couldn't do things like cutting her toenails and shaving her legs and stuff like that. Her mother eventually had to stop working at the furniture store because of her condition, and Amanda stepped into the role of a parent. It was like trying to help mom do everything for her and then happen to do for the other kids, getting ready for school, cooking dinner. Amanda's father Kenny worked various jobs, but she doesn't remember any of them lasting long. My dad, he just, he quit working, and then he just start selling his drugs. He'd go from this place to that place, and eventually, he'd just, whenever he was home, there'd be all, we have house full of people, you know? The bussy home became a revolving door of people buying and selling drugs, particularly meth. It was rumored that Kenny controlled the local drug trade and ruled with violence and intimidation. We started realizing, hey, you know, dad, not who, without he was, you know, and whenever he started coming down off a drug, you know, he'd start hitting us and stuff. It took me a while to figure out that things at her house weren't very good. This is Mary again. When I was there, I would notice there were sometimes strange people there. My nieces would tell me, you know, about their dad being abusive toward them. It just wasn't a good environment. Which is why Mary's parents wouldn't allow her to stay at Amanda's often. My parents knew that her father was selling drugs, and they tried to be a good influence on my sister and her husband. They tried to minimize anything that they were aware of. They tried to correct, but a lot was hidden from them. At one point, Amanda's sisters were so distraught, they tried to run away, but that only made their situation worse. Their dad figured out where they were, and he beat them so horribly whenever he found them, he punched one of them in the face and broke their nose. I don't understand how someone could do that to their child. I think that that person has to be completely void of soul, or, you know, I just don't understand. That's, I can't comprehend it. But Kenny's abuse towards his family, particularly Amanda, went far beyond a punch in the face. When Amanda was around 13, her father started sexually abusing her, and so did his friends who would often come by to buy drugs. You know, someone would end up staying there, they'd sneak into the room, we'd end up having sex. You know, it just, we shouldn't have been taking advantage like that. Were any of your other siblings being abused? I can't say for sure, for sure. I would see little things like, I'd be paying them more attention or something, and then I'd try to like, take away that attention. I kind of went out of my way for my brothers and sisters a lot, because I didn't want them, I didn't want my dad getting to them like that, you know. Even though Mary was also a child when all of this was happening, she tried her best to stand up for her family. About fifth grade, I started going to my school counselor and telling them somebody needs to do something, because my nieces are being sexually abused, they're being physically abused, and you know, in fifth grade or words, right? I was worried about backlash from their parents, but my parents protected me very well, and I had a wonderful home life, And I just couldn't even understand or fathom really what. was happening to them. I don't think she's ever even told me half of the stuff that actually happened, but I've heard from her sisters things that have happened to them as well. So I just know that the sexual and physical abuse was rampant. Amanda felt utterly alone and helpless. This keeps getting worse and worse, and of course, you know, I don't remember stuff like that when I'm a kid. Had all of my stuff to know, you know what I mean? I don't know the truth about a lot of my life. You know, I questioned all my life that, you know, why mom would have. Why mom didn't do anything? My mom knew something was going on. She did ask me one time, and I was honest with her about it, and she kicked my dad out, but it didn't last. It was like for two weeks. And then I found out that my mom was just as scared of my dad as I was. There's a lot of stuff that I didn't know until I got older, you know? So your mom was being abused by your dad too? No, yeah. Absolutely. The abuse that Amanda and her siblings were suffering was reported to the department of family services by their schools, but it wasn't much help. There was a point in time in life where we had to go see the shrinks and stuff, and they made us play with dolls, tell us where we was touched, or stuff like that, or remember growing up. I remember family services being called a few times by a cane. I don't know what for. No, it was too young. But we knew better not to say nothing like drugs, nothing about the drugs in the house. We knew better than that. You know, there was consequences if we would said anything like that. Like my mom, do you want to go to DFS? You know, stuff like that. The counselors could only do so much, because once they were in the counselor's office, they would not tell them what was going on. It was just me saying it. You know, they felt scared. They were afraid. They were too afraid. We had to grow up fast, you know. It just took a toll on us a lot. By 9th grade, Amanda had dropped out of school, and then when she was 17, her mother died suddenly in a car wreck. After my mom passed away in 97, when everything went downhill, it's just one thing after another. It's a really, really bad year. Yes, so tell me about that. After your mom passes, you know, everything goes to hell. I know this is when Larry came into your life, so tell me a bit about that. So, to me, I mean, at first, like, I thought I had a good relationship. Larry was nice to me. Larry DeClu was 32, 15 years older than Amanda, and a drug associate of her fathers. He was at the house one time when he saw Kenny physically assaulting her. You know, I was in my dad's room, and my dad started, you know, and he was pressing all against me and he had me against the door, and Larry walks past the window, and he's seeing me push him dad off of me. Larry and Kenny then went outside and had a talk. Larry came back and then he had asked me if I just, if I wanted to run away with him, if I just wanted to leave with him. And I was all for it, you know, I was, I was just ready to go at that point. I just tired everything and ended up leaving with him. In my mind, he was kind of like a superhero, you know, he took me away from all the abuse and stuff, so I thought I loved him. I didn't know any better, you know? But Mary saw Larry DeClu very differently. To me, he is the most frightening person I've ever met in my life. I was young, and I just could just look at him, just his eyes, he had crazy eyes, and he had this aura around him that was frightening. And I think that when he came into the picture, I think that things took a horrible turn. About a year after they met, Amanda and Larry got married and had their first child, Larry Jr. After this, Larry became abusive. It was so bad, like I couldn't even go in a Walmart. They get diverse without him, accusing me of going inside to meet somebody, to do something with them. And then I would risk, you know, getting beat on and stuff like that, you know? And it wasn't just Amanda Larry was abusing. I remember it was a time after I had had little Larry when he was a baby. Larry was holding a baby, and you know, he wouldn't stop crying, he wouldn't stop crying. And I turned the corner coming into the living room, and I seemed Larry, like kind of threw him hard on the couch, and that's when I freaked out real bad. And I'm like, "Oh my God, what are you doing?" And then he grabbed me by the hair, and he bashed my head into the ground, and he said, "You stupid bitch!" I went to grandma a few times, and he came right behind me, and there was no leaving, you know? He was going to make sure of that. Amanda was stuck back in a familiar pattern with no escape. He threatened to bury her. He threatened at one point to kill her, and bury her, and cement, and build a house on top of it, so no one would ever find her body. This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility, and to making a positive difference in the lives of its employees, and in the communities where they work and live. In light of the compelling need for pro-bonal legal assistance, and in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice reform, the AIG pro-bonal program provides free legal services and other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. In November of 1997, Diane Coleman went out for the day as she usually did. The 32-year-old suffered from schizophrenia, and lived at a care facility near Sullivan, where Amanda's family lived. Diane was allowed to come and go from the facility as she pleased, and she usually left in the morning and returned at night. But on November 11, 1997, Diane never returned to the care center. Days later, her body was found floating in the nearby Maramek River, and autopsy revealed that she had been brutally beaten to death by different blunt objects. Investigators ruled her death a homicide. This evening would later become significant to Amanda, but she only remembers it because of what happened at home that night. I remember being woke up by someone banging on the window and they wanted Larry to go hunt and with them. Larry left and ended up staying out all night. He didn't come home until 11 the next morning. Amanda thought that was strange. They usually went everywhere together. So it just didn't make no damn sense to me, you know? I don't know. There was just certain things that was. wasn't adding up. Ten days later, 17-year-old Jeremy Payne was brought into the police station and questioned about his knowledge of Diane's murder. Jeremy knew Diane through his father, who was in a relationship with her. In a tape's confession, Jeremy said that he, Amanda's father Kenny, and two young women named Angela Cody and Melissa O'Brien, were all complicit in Diane's murder. According to Jeremy, they were all riding in a van when they accidentally hit a woman on the side of the road. They got out to see what happened, then the group beat her, raped her, and left her in the woods. Amanda knew both Melissa and Angela. Melissa was Larry's niece. When she heard the news of Jeremy's confession, Amanda recalled something that happened not too long after Diane's body was found. She, Larry and Melissa were all out driving together. They were on highway N near the Meramek River. And Melissa starts jumping up and down. This is where it happened on Khlairi. And we just keep on going. And I didn't know what the heck was going on. I didn't know what happened, something happened. - However, Larry wasn't part of Jeremy's story. And he was not arrested for the murder with the others. Jeremy Paine was convicted and sentenced to life without parole based on his confession. The charges against Amanda's father were dropped. And Melissa and Angela both took immunity deals. The following year, Amanda and Larry had another child named Felicia. Amanda tried to be the best mom she could be despite her harrowing home life with Larry. By the end of 1999, Amanda's 13-year-old brother, Kenny Jr., also known as Buddy, moved in with her and Larry. He didn't want to live with their father anymore. And Amanda knew he had nowhere else to go. One day, Amanda returned home after running some errands. She had left Buddy to watch over the kids, including Larry's niece, Adrian. - I remember I picked up Adrian and she would be like, "I'll, I can tell something was wrong." Mind you, she's three years old at the time, okay? So I'm like, "What's the matter, baby?" And then she kind of touched herself down there and she said, "It hurts." And so, Amanda looked at her and I started to take her, her bridges off on the couch and then she just started crying. I'm like, "What the heck?" And I thought, "Okay, well maybe she found, she heard herself." But she was running all down there. And I looked there and I'm like, "Honey, I said, what happened?" He's telling me, "Any what happened, baby?" And when she said, "Buddy, buddy." And I mean, right then in there, I knew. - Buddy had sexually assaulted three-year-old Adrian. Amanda then realized, "My dad got to him too, you know, I didn't know." So I had to make one of the hardest decisions there in my life, you know, to kick my brother out, knowing he had nowhere to go. - Amanda also reported Buddy to authorities, but that decision would lead to consequences she could never have imagined. In January of 2000, Buddy was facing charges in juvenile court for the molestation of Larry's niece. And while police were questioning him about it, he dropped a bombshell, not about the molestation, but about the night of Diane Coleman's murder. - He told the police that he would tell the police what really happened in the murder if they would essentially drop the charges or lessen the charges against him. - This is Anne Garrity-Ratherd. She's the director of the Willow Project, which focuses on the wrongful convictions of women and girls. - And so since he had been living with Amanda and Larry and they kicked him out when they learned this about the abuse and turned him over to the police, he said that they were the ones who had in fact committed the crime. So then the story he told was that he was asleep at his grandmother's house and that Amanda and the people who Jeremy had said were in the car came to pick him up to take him to like a birthday celebration late at night. - Remember, Jeremy is the young man who first confessed to Diane's murder and was serving a life without parole sentence. In the story he told police, Melissa O'Brien, Angela Cody, himself and Kenny Bussey were all present that night. Jeremy never mentioned buddy Larry or Amanda. But now, buddy was telling police that he was actually in the car that Larry and Amanda were there too and that his dad, Kenny, was not. He went on to say that. - They gave him LSD and he fell asleep. That was his story. So then the next thing he said was that he woke up and no one else was in the van and he got out of the van to see what was going on and he saw a woman lying in the road and he saw the rest of the people from the car standing around her and beating her with objects. He says that they told him to do the same and he ran back to the van and did not but he saw Amanda specifically hit the woman with multiple objects. - Buddy also said he saw Larry hit the woman multiple times and even though Jeremy Payne had pinpointed Kenny as a fellow perpetrator, buddy claims his father was not involved. - So this is where the situation comes and where he perhaps is trying to protect his father as well. That also probably had to do with his fear of his father having also been horrifically abused by his father. So all of these things are so convoluted by the threats and the intimidation and the violence going on. - In the spring of 2000, Larry Declue was arrested and charged with first degree murder. Amanda was also arrested but was released due to lack of evidence. Around this time, Amanda also found out she was never actually married to Larry. He never finalized the papers. She also learned a shocking truth about the man she'd once seen as a superhero, whisking her away from her abusive father. - It wasn't until later and then I found out my dad had sold me to Larry for drugs. - With Larry finally out of her life, Amanda tried to move forward. She entered into another relationship and had her third child, Katie. Meanwhile, the police still had Amanda in their sights. Soon after Buddy's conversation with police and Larry's arrest, Buddy recanted his statements but police would not accept that and he was then threatened with perjury. - He didn't come forward and he was a dead man in life and he wrote a statement saying, "Please tell my sister Mandy that I'm sorry for lying on her. I just tried to clear my dad's name." - And in 2003, based on her brother's initial statements alone, Amanda was arrested for the murder of Diane Coleman. What was that like for you? - It was devastating. 'Cause that was my baby brother. And said, "I helped." You know, I didn't understand why he was lying and I knew. It just, it was everything hit me at once. I'm like, "Why would he do that?" You know why? Why? Something happened to where he's saying something like that. But I love him and I know that he was young and they scared him and to say in whatever they wanted him to say. And I know that. - Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff You Should Know and we're submitting our most sciencey episodes for your peer review with our new stuff, You Should Know, Do In Science playlist. Out now, you wanna know about Ockham's razor? We got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is ever since the first time you saw Jurassic Park will come on down. So, distil a nice pot of tea everybody, turn down the gas on your Bunsen burner and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the Stuff You Should Know, Do In Science playlist on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. - Bill, why is my eye twitching? Does this mean I'm in Perry, Menopause? - Maybe I have adult ADHD. I need to look this up, where's my phone? - Juliana, your phone is hot to the touch. I think it's asking you for a break. - You know what, maybe I should just ask Chad GPD. - Or maybe we can ask an actual human. - Yes, like a couple sex therapist. - Whoa, that escalated quickly, but okay. - Because I have questions. - We have questions. - And I bet everyone has questions. Like, is it normal to sleep in separate bedrooms? We do that. - How about this one? Is driving your kids bad parenting or just negotiating? - Oh, and I still do need to know, why was my poop green that one time? - Hypothetically, right? Okay, well, instead of letting the internet guess, we've got actual people answering these exact questions. - And laughing with us has gotta be better than spending three hours down a rabbit hole online. - Listen to Bill and Juliana. - The podcast. - On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. (upbeat music) - I'm Munga, shit together, and I'm back with a new season of the podcast Skyline Drive. This time I'm diving into a rabbit hole of peptides, organoids, blood boys, blue zones, and brain replacement to try to understand what this longevity obsession is all about. And what it really means to live forever for all of us. I learned about some rad science. - I can make a brain for you. And then we can test what draw is the best for your brain. A suppose to his brain. Here are some hard truths. I would expect Indians to age faster, but I did not expect it to be almost a 4-5 year acceleration. And get myself into a world of trouble. I'd say probably start bone smashing. That doesn't work. Make you look more defined. They say it works. I don't know. Listen to Skyline Drive, how to live forever on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. From the beginning, Amanda has maintained her innocence. And because of that, she opted to go to trial. You know, I just, I knew God wasn't going to let me go down for something that I didn't do. They couldn't, they couldn't possibly tie me up for something I didn't do. They had nothing on me, you know. And this is where my mind was set. Amanda's defense attorney was public defender David Bruns. And Garrity Rather remembers reading the transcripts of the trial. And to be honest, I was a little alarmed when I saw that the defense put on by the public defender lasted three minutes in length, which obviously seems grossly inadequate. But Ann dug deeper and saw that Bruns actually did the best job he could, given the circumstances. There really isn't a defense that can be put on effectively when someone is completely factually innocent and in fact wasn't even at the crime scene, nor knows anything about the crime scene. You know, since three years had passed at the time she was implicated and almost six years by the time she went to trial, you know, who of us could remember on any given day what we were doing. And who we were with six years prior to that moment, right? There are no witnesses who will say she wasn't there. So there really isn't a good defense that can even be put on. Bruns and Amanda were convinced the prosecution's case was extremely weak. Bruns said all the prosecution had was the testimony of Buddy, who by then was 17. But Buddy recanted again, this time on the witness stand, under cross examination by the defense. So he did a good job of asking him questions that I believe poke tolls and everything he said. The evidence was so poor and the public defender poked so many holes in the testimony of Buddy. It almost seemed like a foregone conclusion that she would be declared innocent. But that's not what happened. Do you know how long the jury deliberated for? Less than two hours. Wow. Wow. On May 27, 2004, Amanda was found guilty and convicted of second-degree murder. She was sentenced to 25 years in prison. I was devastated. I didn't know what, you know, I was mad at everybody around me like, what? How could they do this? [Music] At the time of Amanda's conviction, she had three children. Larry Jr. and Felicia went with Larry's family, but she made the difficult decision to put her youngest child, Katie, up for adoption. During the first years of her sentence, Amanda didn't communicate much with her family. But in 2013, when Amanda got her GED, her sisters and Mary traveled to the prison for the ceremony. And I was chosen to give the speaker for everybody kind of like Bala Victorian. And they kind of surprised me when they came up there after all these years, you know. And it was kind of like my whole life just. [Music] Right before my eyes, you know, because we were all kids back then. [Music] And then just a couple of years later, Amanda got some more good news. The Willow project was going to take on her case. The very first thing I thought was that someone actually believed me, believed in me. And was there to help me. I thought that the case had all the same sort of issues as other cases that I had read about where people were wrongfully convicted. No forensic evidence and the only evidence that was presented at trial was the testimony of an incentivized informant. And that was literally the only evidence against her several years after the murder when no one had ever implicated her before or indicated any involvement on her part up to that point. So all of those things led me to believe that her case was at least problematic if not that she was literally innocent. Amanda has run out of appeal opportunities. So Anne and the Willow project are diligently working on finding new evidence to get her case back in court. In the meantime, Amanda is now nearing the end of her 25-year prison sentence. She was granted parole and will be released in early 2025. Amanda plans to live with Mary, who is thrilled to have her best friend and niece back in her life. I want people to know that she is a good person. She wanted to be a good mother and be there for her children. I want them to know that she is innocent of this crime that she has given her life for and she is a victim of evil people and terrible circumstances. Amanda can't know for sure who killed Diane Coleman. She just knows that she didn't. And to this day, Mary blames everything buddy did and everything that happened to Amanda on their father, Kenny. Who I also think is one of the most evil people I've ever met. I just can't stress enough how he ruined. He really ruined their lives. He stole their lives from them. I fully hold him accountable for that. Although her time in prison will be coming to an end, Amanda knows she has a long road of healing ahead of her. One thing that helps is putting her feelings down on paper. I have a poem that I wrote. Would it be okay if that I read it? Please. I wrote it in 2012 called "There is no Life Without Hope". Imagine being 17, trying so hard not to be bad and putting your trust into that number one man that you love so dear that man you called dad. Then one night everything went wrong, scared and alone, trying your best just to hold on. Getting locked up for first-degree murder, asking him, "Daddy, why did you hurt her?" Telling myself, "I'm going to get out because in God I had no doubt. How can they give me 25 years? I couldn't see that far. My eyes filled with tears. They gave my daddy, "Please tell the truth." But he would. And I had no proof. Imagine how hard it was to trust anyone else. All I could see is they were out for themselves. There I was on my knees, asking God, "How can this be?" "Where's the justice and the crime?" My dad's out there and I'm doing his time. Finally I see it. My eyes are now open. God said, "Child, you can't stop hoping. God put an angel into my life. She's helped heal the pain and get through the strife. You've helped me get past all the hurtful flunges. And most of all, you've taken away these senses. You know who you are. And I thank you so much to the one person in this world. I know I can trust. To find out more about the Willow Project and how to help support wrongfully convicted women like Amanda, go to WillowProjectstl.org. Next time on wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling, Tala Lele Edwards. He's saying, "Now something happened. You should debate me or something." "Shit the baby, what do you talk about?" "You're like, "Taja, man, look how big you are. If I was a kid and you were over here shaking me out, I'd be in the same position there, because I'm like, "What?" Thanks for listening to wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your local Innocence organizations and go to the links in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flom and Kevin Wurtis, as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Laila Robinson, and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea with additional production by Jeff Clyburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production is is by three-time Oscar-nominated composer J. Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast and on Twitter at Wrong Conviction as well as @lavof4good on all three platforms. You can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Love of For Good Podcast in association with Signal Company #1. [Music] Can superstars even exist the way they used to? 2016 was sort of that last era of monoculture where we still consume things in community. You will never make me feel bad for being a black girl for being a black American girl ever. Listen to therapy for black girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Chuck from Stuff You Should Know and we're submitting our most "sciencey" episodes for your peer review with our new stuff You Should Know Doing Science Playlist. Out now, you want to know about Ockham's Razor? The simplest explanation is usually the right one. We got you covered. Wondered what chaos theory is, ever since the first time you saw Jurassic Park? Well, come on down. So, just still a nice pot of tea everybody. Turn down the gas on your Bunsen burner and slip into your most comfortable lab coat and listen to the Stuff You Should Know Doing Science Playlist on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Alex Baldwin. It's about the hang. You know, Robin Ive is always a great hang. And director Morgan Neville. What do you hear? Listen to here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.