#340 Jason Flom with John Giuca Pt.1

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And we're the host of "Everyone Watches Women's Sports," a new podcast from "Together and I Heart Women Sports." We're breaking down the biggest headlines. Naomi Osaka showing out. Shout-out to you, Naomi. The viral moments. I've been obsessed with Koshan Rock's boxing journey. She looks good. Her combos are swift. And the stories everyone's talking about across women's sport. Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brenn. And on the Discretsland podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars in unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard. The kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga's Accused Up, where that time blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny. Listen to Discretsland on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. In recording our coverage of John Juke's case, we realize that there are simply too many twists and turns for one episode. So we split this episode into and are releasing both at the same time. On October 11, 2003, three groups of college kids, one from Long Island, another from Brooklyn, as well as New Jersey, ran into one another at a bar on the upper east side of Manhattan. A mutual friend among them, Angel D. Pietro, new Brooklynite Albert Cleary, as well as her Fairfield University classmate, Mark Fisher, a football player from New Jersey. When the night started to wind down and all of the trains along Island New Jersey had stopped running, Albert Cleary's friend, 20-year-old John Juke, offered up his house in Flatbush, Brooklyn for an after party and a place to crash. A few of John and Albert's friends joined, including a neighborhood tough guy named Antonio Russo. Sometime before 6am, Angel and Albert walked to his nearby house. Since Angel was the only person Mark Fisher knew, he left to find his way over to Albert's with Antonio Russo and soon ended up fatally shot without his wallet on the driveway across from Albert Cleary's house. A blanket from John's house at its feet. In the immediate aftermath, Antonio Russo cut his dreadlocks and absconded to California, a police investigation revealed that other voices at a car door were heard before the gunshots. Albert and Angel denied any knowledge and soon statements were made that alleged that John Juke was involved. The motivations and level of involvement varied, but with this many witnesses placing blame on John, there had to be something to it, but this is wrongful conviction. (gentle music) Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today we have a story that was front page news all over New York City when it happened with plaring headlines. Celacius headlines about wannabe Brooklyn gangsters who allegedly conspired at an after party to kill a suburban college football star who just happened to be in their midst. When in fact there were no gangsters, only a group of friends and the murder was not a group effort at all. The only group effort here took the form of multiple conflicting false statements against a member of that group, John Juke, and John is calling in from prison in upstate New York right now. John, I'm sorry you're here, I'm sorry there are circumstances, but we're very honored to have you. Thank you. The only good news in this whole miserable story is that as attorney is Mark Bedero, and Mark is one of the most respected criminal defense attorneys in the New York area and beyond. Mark, welcome to wrongful conviction. Glad to be here, thanks for having me. And Mark, why was this such a high profile case? This was a big one. At the time I was a prosecutor, man, and I remember it in real time just reading tabloids on the subway going to work. It was in the fall of 2003, it felt like there was an update on this flawed investigation every day. It was the grid kid murder case because you had a situation where the victim was the all-american son that any parent wish they had as a child, Mark Fisher. It was a 19 year old good looking college football player from New Jersey who went to Brooklyn for the first time in his life, and unfortunately he ended up dead on the street. And certainly that's the kind of thing that is going to feed the tabloids and get the public attention. So the grid kid murder case became sensational from day one. And that moniker actually referred to the admitted grid kid killer, John's co-defendant, Antonio Russo, but somehow John's face was also plastered on the front page of those tabloids as if he was some sort of criminal mastermind or co-conspirator to somehow actually involved. The prosecution never actually decided on any one theory. They just put all this stuff out there and the press ate it up. And of course this media firestorm polluted the jury pool. Now don't forget, the HBO series "The Sopranos" was an absolute cultural phenomenon at this time. It's the only thing people were talking about it seemed. So this story of the death of a promising suburban kid allegedly at the hands of these wannabe mafia city kids was like it was the imperfect storm. It just captured everybody's imaginations. By the time his trial came around, you actually had the prosecutor comparing him to Tony Soprano and talking about ordering hits to build up street credibility for a non-existent gang, which in fact was just a bunch of knucklehead teenagers in Brooklyn calling themselves names. And this alleged gang was called the ghetto mafia, right? So John, what exactly was the ghetto mafia? Oh my god. It was a bunch of kids hanging out. We had some people who used to hang out with us who never even heard of that name. Some people who considered it a joke and there were other people who didn't. So one thing was never an actual gang. John was just a regular 19 year old Brooklyn kid. So let's talk about your life before all of this, John. You grew up in flat-bush Brooklyn, right? It's like a little enclave in flat-bush called "Profford Park South." I guess you could say I grew up in a regular middle class upbringing. First I went to public school, PS139. Then I went to Catholic school around third grade when my mother met my stepfather. So your parents broke up when you were young? Yes, when I was five years old. My stepfather, but considering him like my father also, I didn't look at it as a negative thing, really. My real father went on to get married again. And that woman who he married already had kids. So he had a family over there too. And I considered them family also. I looked at it as I had two fathers, like two men in my life who loved me and wanted to see me succeed and support me. And your biological father ended up suffering a stroke when you were 19, which ended up having relevance in this case. But at that time, like you said, both he and your stepdad were supportive of you. You were trying to succeed as an actor and actually got some work as a teenager. Yes, I was on school in Iraq. I got to meet Jack Black, the guy from War and Order. I was on War and Order like 10 times. I played a dead kid on War and Order. I remember one funny story that I'm on War and Order. And I'm the dead kids on Wayne on the pavement. And I have fake blood all over my head and everything. And I remember the two actors, Jerry Orback, and the other one, the two main cops. Jerry Orback and Chris Noth. Yeah, and they have to kneel down and search my pockets. I have a pair of keys that they're supposed to take out of my pockets. And so Jerry Orback kneels down and he kneels right on the keys and he's sort of a bitch. And they're like, "Cut." And then they've cut it like 4, 5, 6, 7 times. They keep trying to shoot it. Things keep going wrong. And then I had smoked some weed before I went. I think I was like 6, 17 years old. And this is not part of script. And he goes, "It smells like marijuana." And then they're like, "Cut." And then he's like, "What are you fucking about?" He's like, "I don't know. It smells like marijuana." And my stepfather's looking at me like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking kill you." That's incredible. And Jerry Orback, rest in peace. I can just picture it in my mind right now. And your stepfather was there too. So it sounds like you had this great sort of blended, Brady Bunch sort of a family situation. And can you tell us about the woman at the center of it? And I'm talking about your mom, Dorine. And I know her from rallies and events and calls and texts. And she's just a pillar of strength. And somebody I admire greatly. - Yeah, but she was already going to stay at home, mom. She was more, I guess you could say, liable minded. Like my house was the house where a lot of kids from the neighborhood used to come and she used to feed them or we'd be way back from home, back yard or whatever. She always told me that war enforcement was a good guy. - I remember this growing up, she was encouraging me to go to John Jay and encouraging me to become a cop. Her brother is a correction officer. My own-- that's another crazy irony about your story which is that while you were pursuing an acting career you were also studying criminal justice at John J. College. Yes and what you learn about the criminal justice system in school is just 180 degrees from the reality of the criminal justice system. They say that you have all these rights and they're not gonna arrest people unless this standard is met and then they don't get convicted or was this standard is met on and just none of that is true. Yeah you saw those standards go out the window pretty quickly when the false statements that were used to obtain your arrest warrant and conviction didn't even form a cohesive narrative. Now one of the people who gave false testimony against you was your girlfriend at the time Lauren Colciano. Now we're gonna read from her recantation later but you two had started dating in high school right? She was my first love. I was with her since I was about 15 or 16. I thought I wanted to get married and everything. We were young. Why you so practically live at her house sometimes? I know her whole family. You ended up hiring her family's attorney Sam Gregory who had previously represented her father Sal Colciano. He was head of maintenance in the World Trade Center. He went to federal prisons because the World Trade Center got robbed. They said it was about four million Americans. This is in the 90s sometimes. For whatever her father's mistakes were the DA was eventually able to use her father's situation among other things in order to coerce her false testimony against you. They were also able to coerce or incentivize your friend Albert Cleary as well who was arguably closer to this incident than you were. Albert's mother Susan Cleary was the vice president of the Kings County GOP executive committee. The group in Brooklyn that can authorize what is known as a Wilson Pacula which allows a candidate from another party to run on that party's ticket and it can be used in order to run unopposed or in the case when a candidate loses their party's primary election. Whether or not that was a bargaining chip used to keep her son's name out of the investigation that's something we'll never know. A lot of people say the system is broken. I don't think it's broken. I think it's working exactly how they intended it to work as like a battering ram for the rich and powerful. Yeah and as we've seen in cases like yours the prosecutor's office will use high-profile cases for publicity with the hope of reaping those benefits come election time. Now back in 2003 the DA was Charles Joe Heinz who was facing a primary challenge in 2005 and wouldn't you know that he stretched out this investigation and prosecution you guessed it to occur right before the election. He ended up winning both the primary and the general. Now anyone who's familiar with our podcast is familiar with the problems in Brooklyn during the Heinz era. 1999 to 2013 is a really dark period for criminal justice in Brooklyn. Heinz was a political creature of the first order. That office back then was known as the poster child for wrongful convictions. Maybe in the last 10 or 15 years when people have really been paying attention to the problem of wrongful convictions. I think a lot of the momentum on this really started when people like Ken Thompson were running against Heinz 10 years ago and exposing bad case after bad case that was coming out of the Heinz Brooklyn DA's office and this is exhibit a John Juca to this day is exhibit a many of the people who worked under Heinz who were responsible and complicit and so many of the wrongful convictions of that era are still there today and those who have moved on to private practice or even careers in media like the trial prosecutor in this case Anna Sagan Nettalazzi those former Heinz ADA's their reputations and public fates are arguably tied to the political fate of the Brooklyn DA's office. In terms of the graduates of the Heinz DA's office this trial prosecutor was their superstar and the biggest red flag in a case like this when a trial prosecutor markets themselves as I'm a homicide DA and I've never lost a case I have a perfect record and her 36 and O trial record let me say something if you want 36 hands of poker and a roll you're cheating and after John's conviction you know all this marketing this is a successful DA she's on TV today as an expert on everything that's right in criminal justice and it would have been humiliating for the Brooklyn DA to take her down for years after this conviction John's was her number one marketing pitch on her greatest hits and after two post-conviction hearings and litigation and covered extensively in the media when one judge of the New York Court of Appeals ripped the prosecutor a new one and basically all but called her corrupt and deliberately violating his rights all the references to John's heroic conviction have been scrubbed from the record which makes you wonder if you're proud of this conviction and proud of what you've done why you would do that why would anyone be proud of what should be it really should be illegal sending an innocent man to prison and effectively compounding the tragic loss of another young man's life so let's get to the incident the crux of everything we're discussing of course I'm referring to the awful night of October 11 into the 12th of 2003 it was Columbus Day weekend Mark Fisher who went to Fairfield University in Connecticut and some of his friends went to the city and partied John Juca and his friend Albert Cleary and a few others also went to the city and the groups ended up being connected through a very interesting person in this sorted process named Angel D. Pietro who was a college classmate and theoretically friend of Mark Fisher who also was friendly with Albert Cleary Angel D. Pietro's father was a prominent Long Island defense attorney as well so you had the Brooklyn contingent which was John Albert Cleary and two more neighborhood friends Angel D. Pietro and her friend Meredith Denahan from Long Island and Mark Fisher who had come in from New Jersey and they met at a bar on the Upper East side of Manhattan which at the time was known to college kids for being the home of many bars that had pretty loose ID policies right and so now it was getting late and the Long Island and New Jersey kids had to figure out a way home on the train the last train left the next one didn't leave till sometime the next morning so they were stranded so I opened my house in them in the cab it was me Albert Mary Mark and Angel me and Albert paid for the cab and then after we got there a few more people showed up I'm pretty sure it was Tommy Jimmy my brother was home and Antonio Russo. Russo had a house right behind John so they were certainly friendly from the neighborhood. Now Antonio Russo was a strongly built high school dropout who wore dreadlocks and sold weed which was the reason he gave for coming over to John's house in the 2018 interview with the cops to sell weed to some of those who were interested and according to three people Russo had a gun in his waistband both before and after the murder one of those three people said they had been threatened with it. He's the tough guy he's a little bit crazy not in the legal sense just in the real world sense he's the resident tough guy he's making everyone uncomfortable but for now he's supplying weed to this otherwise fun after party at John's house now at some point Mark Fisher made some sort of a faux pas that served as an alleged motive. Everybody was drinking a couple people with smoke and weed at one point mocked out on a table and to take the truth it was in a big deal. Right sitting on a table I've never heard that be cited as a reason to kill anyone and what's nice about Antonio Russo's statement to detectives in 2018 is that it takes some of the guesswork out of what actually happened. Now Russo said the he and Fisher went to the ATM together so Fisher could buy weed. The receipt said 423 but according to the bank it was an hour behind this was 523 AM so Russo and Fisher returned to John's house a little after that. Now Albert and Angel were there when they returned so they soon left together to go to Albert's which was only a couple of blocks away. They were there when they came back from the ATM yet and then they slipped out they say they said goodbye to people but I don't remember them saying goodbye to anybody I just remember them disappearing. Without Meredith they're marked by the way both of whom had a reasonable expectation that they'd be sticking with Angel and Albert which was their only connection to this after party. Now we're not sure why they were left behind but nonetheless Meredith had fallen asleep and before Mark actually did you called Albert at 5.57 AM to let him know that Mark was on his way over and then Russo left with him. Now it was cold out right so Mark asked John if he could take the blanket that he had draped over his shoulders and that becomes an interesting topic of conversation or evidence if you could call it that later on. What we know is that 40 minutes later Mark Fisher was shot and killed in front of 150 Argyle Road which was just a few blocks from John's house and directly across the street from Albert's. Directly across the street from Cleary's house correct. Now according to Google Maps this is about a five-minute walk less than a quarter of a mile so we're not sure what happened in those other 35 minutes. The free-floating radicals if you will are Mark Fisher Antonio Russo, Angel D. Pietro and Albert Cleary. Now from this 2018 detective's report Russo said that while on Argyle Road he pulled out his German Luger 9 millimeter which belonged to him and him alone. He took Fisher's wallet and told him to run before firing a shot at the ground to let Fisher know that the gun was real and loaded. He then fired a shot at Fisher who fell to the ground. When Fisher asked him why he had shot him Russo emptied his clip into him killing him on the spot. Now Russo said that there was a woman in a car who could identify him when he he was fleeing the scene. He got rid of the wallet and a sewer near his house. It was later recovered by police. Now, immediately after the crime, Antonio Russo did a few things that a guilty person might. He used to wear braids and all life and he shaved his head. Russo then decides to take a vacation in California for a month and just disappear. And it'll become clear that Russo's 2018 account is definitely missing a few details. But what is absolutely certain is that he said he did this alone with his own gun. The other interesting factor was the people who lived on Argyle Road, they heard voices right before the shots and the woman whose bedroom was right above the driveway where Mark was found, heard car doors opening and closing, also heard young voices. And she was adamant that one of those was a female voice. Right, the occupant of 150 Argyle Road, Heroko Swornick, said that she was awakened by her dog barking and heard the sound of a car door opening and shutting, which was later clarified to be a van door. The clear is owned of van. Swornick went on to say that the view from her second story window was obstructed by foliage, but she heard more than two young people talking. The conversation specifically did not sound like an argument and one of the voices was female. She said that she went back to bed and a bit later she and her husband heard gunshots and called police. Mark Fisher's body had been shot five times. The blanket from John's house lay underneath his feet and there were abrasions on his right hand and the right side of his face suggesting that he had been in a fight with someone who was left handed. While the suggestion of that physical evidence is not proof positive of anything, John is in fact a righty. And also visible in the crime scene photos is a petite bare footprint left in the mud, but none of those details were even brought up a trial. And neither was what the police heard from neighbors. They did a canvas of the neighborhood. Some people said that they heard shots. Some people said that they heard a flighting van door and also a saw, a dark colored car speeding away. Curiously, Antonio Russo also mentioned in that 2018 report being seen by a woman in a car while he fled on foot. And by the way, he's not left handed either. I believe Albert Cleary is left handed. Now let me be clear. I'm not going any farther than that, accusing him of anything. But Albert Cleary also had a vehicle of similar make and model that was described by the witnesses on Argyle Road. Our working theory has always been that Albert and Angel stumbled in to Russo doing something bad and didn't want to get involved in coming after him because he's a monster. And I'm not accusing Albert and Angel of murders or anything like that. But there is a ton of credible evidence that suggests that they were not honest about what they knew. One of the things, which is really troubling, is at the party, Russo comes in and Russo has got long dreadlocks and he's a tough guy. He sticks out like a sort of them. And when Angel talks to the cops and she says, "Tell us all the people at the party." She never mentions Russo at all. In fact, she says it's just like a bunch of white guys. Now Russo is not white. But she told her friend, her then boyfriend, that there was a really scary guy there. When trial comes around, Angel identifies John, which is not a big deal. Just, oh yeah, that's the guy who's housed we went to and she's describing the people there. Remember, Russo's sitting at the table too. They're on trial at the same time. She's never asked to identify Russo. Not even asked. The reality is Russo said he saw a girl. The neighbors heard a girl. There's the footprint that you described. By their own admission, Albert and Angel are across the street. Now, wouldn't you know it? Who do you think the only people on the block when they interviewed people at the house who said they didn't hear anything? Which is completely unbelievable. Because I've been to this neighborhood and the neighbor's driveways are maybe at most 20, 30 yards across the street from the other neighbor's front doors. 6.30 in the morning on a Sunday. And there's boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And no one in the clearing house hears a thing. And if you talk to some of the neighbors, they told us this, when everybody came out, obviously, I mean, it's kind of a big deal in the neighborhood like that. Nobody came out of the clearing house. What's up, fam? It's your girl, Sam J. And we're the host of Everyone Watches Women Sports, a new podcast from Together in I Heart Women Sports. Because let's be real. Women sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey and Ler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii. My first thought is like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating? The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments to take over your entire timeline. And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week. Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women sports. Naomi Osaka showing out, she beat. Sublinca. Shout out to you, Naomi. You get the palm, Naomi. You get the palm for that. Because we're not just interested in what happened. We're interested in why everyone's talking about it. Because everyone watches Women Sports. Listen to everyone watches Women Sports. On the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Carrie Brown, scene in Fred Armason here. You know us or rather you know them. Tony and Candace, Nina and Lance, Spike and yes, the chicken. We've played a lot of iconic characters over the years, but today we're showing up as ourselves to tell you about Podlandia, AO Rewatch, our brand new podcast. Each week we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia from the very beginning, breaking down the sketches, exploring the back stories of our most iconic characters, revisiting the Portland locations you know and love, and opening up about our creative process. How did any of this get made? Why do you think that was a good idea? We're ready to talk about it. Guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Kreisel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more. You fully improvised not just words, but a song about it. Well, I thought he was gonna write. I thought you were all gonna write a song. Listen to Podlandia. Hey, you rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Chelsea Hamler from Dear Chelsea. Every week the news gets worse. The world gets crazier. And Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible you're the problem. If you come over here to play games, I'ma check you. Okay, if you do some in the news that don't sound good, I'ma play you. Join Yamanika Saunders as she breaks down the week's most problematic stories on our new podcast. You're the problem with Yamanika. Do you know I just found out who Sydney Swini was? New episodes weekly every Wednesday is part of my new network, The Dear Chelsea Network. If he got a bunch of women, then I should have a bunch of men. Do better or do less, so I don't have to do so much. So join Yamanika each episode as she answers one question. Who's the problem? I'm Yamanika and I'm out. Listen to you're the problem with Yamanika on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. (upbeat music) - The morning after the murder, him and Angel Di Pietro decided to clean the garage after partying all night, which is a bizarre thing before they quickly decamped to her long island home where they hung out with her criminal defense father all day, a place clear he had never been before. What does that all mean? Who's to say, but this is highly bizarre conduct in the grand scheme of what happened here? - And as I mentioned, Angel's father, James Di Pietro, was a prominent defense attorney. - He's a prominent lawyer, well respected lawyer, close friend to Heinz, frequent financial donor, to Heinz. - Interestingly, Angel had plans to follow in her dad's footsteps and later passed the bar. - And then a short time later, she gets hired as a prosecutor to the point where her and Nicolazzy are colleagues for years, who's ever heard of this? - So a short time later, she got hired as a prosecutor in the Brooklyn DA's office. You can't make this up. So okay, so back to the immediate aftermath. At around 10 a.m. that morning, Angel began receiving phone calls from family and friends of Mark Fisher, and she told them that Meredith Denahan have given Mark train fare and he had taken a train around 8 or 9 a.m. Now, in initial interviews, Angel also told detectives that she had spoken of Meredith on the morning of October 12th, who allegedly told her that Mark had woken John up around 6 a.m. and asked where to catch a train. But Meredith denied that this conversation ever took place. - She didn't talk to Mary for some period of time because Mary was pissed at her for what she believed was being abandoned. Mary is her like garden city friend, but she doesn't go to Brooklyn that often and she's left at this house by herself. She's pissed off because she thinks Angel is sneaking out to step clear and just snuck out and left her there. - So this is what Meredith told investigators on October 14th, so this is two days in. And they knew that Angel wasn't telling the truth and Mark Fisher's friends and family told investigators the same thing. They had a hard time getting a straight answer from Angel. - Everyone who is concerned about Mark Fisher is asking where's Mark, where's Mark? And Angel is telling different stories about when his friends were calling or when he left. And in 2004, late spring early summer, a key point of emphasis for law enforcement was Angel. You could see they spent a lot of time tracking her and trying to interview her friends and roommates. And they all said we didn't believe her. She's telling different stories. We basically cut her off. We didn't want to be associated with her anymore after this. And the people who believe Angel is not telling the truth more than anyone else are Mark Fisher's family. They have, from day one, accused her and Cleary of not telling the truth. They went so far as to sue the both of them. After their son was murdered and John was convicted. And they wanted to sue Albert and Angel. They asked the DA for this police paperwork to talk about these neighbors on Argyle Road, who said we heard a girl, we heard a girl. And the Brooklyn DA's response was, we're not giving you that. They were protecting Angel even back then. It at least appears as if some deal was made with her or perhaps with her father to keep her out of the crosshairs. So this is all super interesting. But what the hell does this have to do with John's guilt or innocence? How do the vulnerabilities of Albert and Angel, having maybe seen Russo commit this crime and covering for that fact? How does this get directed towards John and this narrative with the ghetto mafia? When the cops interviewed Antonio Russo a couple days after the murder, he is the one who planted the seed in the cops' ears that there was this big tough gang named ghetto mafia of which John and others were involved in and that they could have been behind this. And as soon as I found out that the police wanted to talk to me, I went right there to the precinct. As a matter of fact, Lauren County Arnold drove me. That was the 7-0 precinct detective, which on the same guy to stuck a plunger of the guy at Abno Luima. And for those who don't remember the awful case of Abno Luima and brace yourself, it was 1997 in the 70th precinct or the 7-0 as it was called. And Mr. Luima was effectively kidnapped by police from the scene of a fight outside of a club. They accused him of assaulting one of the four police officers with them, then brutally beat him. And when back at the 70th precinct, they sexually assaulted Mr. Luima with a broken broomstick. And yes, it's actually even worse than it sounds. This sparked national outrage and protests here in New York. And so these officers knew that you knew that story. They tried to subtly threaten me with that too when I was in the precinct. They said, you have to use the bathroom. I said, I don't have to use the bathroom. I'm like, what? And they took me to the bathroom and then tried to question me in the bathroom. And I'm like, oh my fucking god. I'm fucking believable. These fucking dirt bags. I'm guessing that this was before your lawyer got there, right? Before my lawyer got there, they just wanted me to either confess or blame someone. That's when my lawyer cut the interviews often. So that's it. That's the only thing you guys want to hear. That's it, we have nothing more to say. So these are the tactics that were being used in the initial investigation back in the fall of 2003. And as the prosecutor's office took over, things may have been more delicate perhaps, but still very sinister and very serious. And it appears that Albert Cleary was under the same sort of intense pressure. Now, Cleary had denied knowing anything. And he actually has a lawyer go a national TV to say we're cooperating. We know nothing. They even commissioned a polygraph in which Cleary passed a polygraph in which he said, I don't know anything about this. I've been truthful. I've told the police everything I know, which ostensibly at that time was, I know nothing. But a few months later, after you got pressured, according to Cleary, he knew everything. And what becomes clear is that he had become their star witness against you. So John, when did you get the feeling that this investigation had shifted and the heat was being directed towards you? When they appointed this elite investigative unit consisting of Brooklyn's ADA's and Major Case Quad detectives, and Michael Vecchion with spearheading that team. So even with Albert shouting from the rooftops that he, quote, passed a polygraph, that's saying that he didn't know anything, this elite investigative unit headed by the now disgraced Michael Vecchion, he had Albert ready to say whatever the hell he could dream up in order to save himself. And as we mentioned, he wasn't the only one. The two most important pieces of false testimony centered around when Albert and your girlfriend at the time, Lauren Calciano met up with you at your house sometime on October 12th in the aftermath of the murder. What the DA claims is later that night, or the day according to Lauren, that John is meeting with his girlfriend Lauren and Albert in his bedroom. According to the DA, he tells them what happened. And according to Cleary, John tells him, Mark disrespected my house by sitting on a table and it pissed me off. So I told Russo take my gun and show him what's up. Basically gave the order. Lauren, again, ostensibly at the exact same meeting says what happened is John told us Russo had approached him that night and said, I want a rob, Mark, can I borrow your gun? And John, ever the loyal friend that he is, would say, here, take my gun. She claims it's during the day. Albert claims it's at night. Albert's claiming John's talking about ordering a hit. Lauren's talking about Russo asking him for a gun. And the common denominator here is that both of these witnesses had denied for a year knowing anything until they were pressured and threatened with all kinds of things. Lauren was threatened with her future, very embarrassing details about her personal life. Albert was threatened with jail, perjury, all kinds of things. He was on probation for kicking the crap out of somebody a few months earlier. And so at a bare minimum, you have conclusive proof that either one of Lauren or Albert take your pick. I would argue it doesn't even matter. It just demonstrates they're all foolish shit. But you have conclusive proof that the prosecution has no problem calling at least one witness, it knows, is flat out perjuring themselves. Now, Cleary, he also added to that story that I was talking to John and this guy, Rob Legister, the head of Getto Mafia. And John and Rob were talking about how we don't have enough street credibility, so we need to catch a body. Legister at the time was a college student in North Carolina. And we, of course, have a sworn affidavit from this register guy saying, this is all a bunch of nonsense. He's never called to testify to any of this. But yet at the trial, you have Nicolasi talking about capos, soldiers, orders, Tony soprano. It's insane. So these are the two fall statements that eventually got John and died at a secret grand jury. Now, Antonio Russo had already been arrested in November 2004. Why that took so long? Nobody knows. After Russo got arrested, that was it, I thought. And then I went shopping. There was a couple of days before Christmas on December 21, 2004. And I bought a whole bunch of Christmas gifts for everyone. And I was on my way home to put up the Christmas tree for my mother. And I had-- I was walking home with a whole bunch of bags from Macy's and all different places. And they were there in front of my house. And then detective Burns said, have you been being good? They said, yeah, what are you doing here? And he said, put your hands behind your back. And then when they put me in the car, I could hear they called Vecchion. And I could hear on the phone because it's so loud and we're sitting in a quiet car. And he is laughing hysterically. And he said, wish you were Merry Christmas while he was just laughing, like a cool, evil motherfucker that he is. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. And we're the host of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, the new podcast from Together and I Heart Women Sports. Because let's be real, women sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii. My first thought is, it's like, what's up with the snacks? And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week, every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women sports. Sublinca. Carrie Brown's seen in Fred Armason here. You know what, so rather, you know them. Each week, we'll revisit an episode of Portlandia from the very beginning, breaking down the sketches, exploring the back stories of our most iconic characters, revisiting the Portland locations you know and love, and opening up about our creative process. Listen to Pod Landia. Ayo, rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The world gets crazier, and Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible you're the problem. Okay? If you do something in the news that don't sound good, I'ma play you. Join Yamanika Saunders as she breaks down the week's most problematic stories on her new podcast. New episodes weekly, every Wednesday, is part of my new network, The Dear Chelsea Network. Do better, or do less, so I don't have to do so much. Who's the problem? I'm Yamanika, and I'm out. Listen to You're the Problem with Yamanika on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. So you spent Christmas on Rikers Island, and with a class A1 felony, you weren't given a chance to bond out. So you were stuck there for the next nine months. I thought it would have took much longer because every person who was there for an A1 felony or a serious case like that, a murder case was taken at least two or three years. And they rushed my case to trial in eight months because of that election. Joe Heins had a serious primary challenge, or state senator John Sampson. And if he lost, he may have had to call in a favor from Albert's mother on the King's County GOP executive committee. And I'm not a conspiracy guy, but that's who you call. But as part of his taxpayer funded election campaign, he was making a big splash in the media with your case, the grid kid killer case as they called it. And they didn't plan on losing. So they needed to support their two false witnesses with more bullshit. And went out and found another friend of yours with a vulnerability to exploit a guy named Anthony Bahari, who played the part of another alleged mafia soldier. Whose job it was to get rid of the gun. Yes, he was another witness who satisfied the formula of claimed for a year and a half that he didn't know anything. But after being heavily pressured, claimed that the morning after the homicide that John called him up and asked him to do him a favor and pick up an item and leave it on the corner for somebody else to pick up. And Bahari testified that he looked at the item and that it was a firearm. So that testimony was potentially very damaging, but was problematic for a lot of reasons. He was threatened with losing his son with being prosecuted for actually possessing the gun, which is illegal fiction. The gun was never recovered. The DA was threatening to prosecute him for possession of a gun that they had no evidence of where it was or whether it was operable or anything else. It was alleged that John and Bahari had called each other back and forth to plan how he would leave the gun under a box on the street for some mystery buyer who would leave the money in its place. All they had to do to prove that that wasn't true was get these phone records. And then what case with this many coerced and or incentivized witnesses and a total lack of any concrete evidence would be complete without a jailhouse snitch. So in walks John Avedo who did time at Rikers while you were there. He had a burglary charge and was eventually sentenced to a drug rehab program with the burglary sentence suspended pending his completion of the program. And I believe a probation period, but he fell off the wagon and now all of a sudden he had a story to tell and in swoop the Brooklyn DA's office to snatch up another willing participant in John's railroading. So you and Antonio Russo went to trial together. So you're in the same courtroom, but you had two separate juries, which I'm led to understand is meant to streamline the process, save money and then say if there's a jury misconduct issue, then they don't have to toss both convictions. So same trial separate juries right. Jerry and green jury. All of the green jury. So we've gone over three of the four substantive witnesses, Albert Cleary, Lauren Colciano and Anthony Bajari. Lauren and Anthony have both recanted under oath as has the jailhouse snitch John Avedo whose testimony were about to cover. Mark, tell us about the state's case. The jury is being told essentially that Juca's childhood friend Albert Cleary is going to come in and tell you that John as a member of this gang, ghetto mafia told Albert that they wanted to increase their street credibility so they needed to kill someone that Mark Fisher sat on a table in his family room. This was such an act of disrespect that it made Juca rage to the point where he told Antonio Russo take my gun and you go out and you quote unquote show Fisher, what's up, which apparently is their way of saying shoot him. I remember that he tried to say that I told Russo to wait in the bushes and ambush him on Turner plate, which is a block away from my house. Meanwhile, it was obviously based on 911 calls and when the body was found and blood, there was no blood trail from Turner all the way to his house. So he was just an obvious lie also and he pushed a 1 p.m. phone call up to 11, which angel deep Pietro testified falsely to as well. So you had called Albert just before 1 p.m. that day, phone records corroborated that but both of them testified to an 11 a.m. call. So it might be plausible that you were the alleged source of all of their shady information during the immediate aftermath. Now there's something else about Albert's time on the stand. Nikolasi brought up the polygraph he had taken to prove he didn't know anything about the crime but in a very misleading context. She really is slick Nikolasi when he was on the stand after he says the exact opposite of that polygraph he says he does know that there's anything about it. She asks him, didn't you take a polygraph and he said yes and then of course knowing polygraphs on admissible and court. So she knew Fang Gregory would object and it was affirmed. So that's it. The jury thought that that he took and passed that polygraphs about it. What he was saying now it was never cleared up that he took a polygraph to the exact opposite of what he was saying now. So that is really devious now they called your ex girlfriend Lauren Coliseon of the stand whose testimony just can't be squared with Albert Cleary's version of the same exact conversation between the three of you on October 12th. Both stories could not be true. There could not have been the same meeting that Albert and Lauren are talking about and Albert's talking about John complaining about disrespect and ordering Russo to commit a murder when Lauren is saying no what happened is Russo said I just want to rob the guy. Can I borrow your gun if that wasn't a red flag. I don't know what is and John this was the first time that you were hearing the one time love of your life falsely implicating you in a murder. That was crushed. She stared at me the whole time she was up there and it wasn't like a malicious like she wasn't staring me down. She was looking at me like as if she was saying I'm sorry with her eyes. I had a conversation with my fixer about that she was like she's being forced to do this is obvious to me she's telling you I'm sorry. So at this point the jury had heard from Bahari Angel D. Pietro as well as from Lauren and Albert and to anyone paying attention it would have to be clear that one or both of these versions of events simply were not true. So at the last minute they pull a Hail Mary this guy John Avedo who was a jailhouse snitch and he claims that I was in jail with John and I was having visitation and Rikers Island the same time John was and he was with his father and two women and Avedo says I overheard John in response to the question from his father why did you have a gun with you. John said I don't know I just did an in essence acknowledge having a gun what the jury never learns is that John juke as father prior to this jailhouse visitation which did happen by the way and it's not surprising that the snitch would use a kernel of truth that could be documented by looking at jail records. But what the jury didn't know and presumably the DA didn't know it was at John's father had a series of debilitating strokes and as a result he couldn't speak. He couldn't say what Avedo said that he said he could only say one or maybe sometimes he would string two words together at a time. Had Avedo even sat close enough to hear your conversation. He sat somewhere near us but he didn't obviously sit close enough to actually hear my father because he did he would have made a better lie. The jury also didn't know that the family relatives, the women who were present would have strenuously denied that occurred. They have sworn under oath in affidavits that this never happened. And there was even more to this false testimony where a veto claimed to hear incriminating statements directly from John. This time completely changing the location of the crime. The murder unquestionably is on our Gile road that shots were heard by the residents. But a veto says, no, what happened is John told me that he went to the ATM with Mark Fisher, which as you also said earlier was an hour before the murder. But this is what snitches do. They read papers. They see the news and they concoct. He says when Mark Fisher withdrew money at the ATM that John told me he pulled out a gun, pistol whipped Mark Fisher beat him up and then Russo took the gun and shot him. So the story changes dramatically. On top of the fact that this is coming from a jailhouse snitch, you again, was trying to avoid a prison sentence. And they're moving the murder location. This is beyond absurd. So what did Sam Gregory do about a veto? Unfortunately, he didn't even know about John a veto until right before trial. There's no offer proof, meaning here's what he's going to say. There's no notice to the defense that oh, by the way, we're going to argue through this witness that Jucco was physically there and did it. So he wasn't prepared to try a case on a theory other than the nonsense inconsistencies that was going to come out of Lauren and Albert. The defense had been aware of this from the beginning. They could have tactically prepared differently. He could have prepared to have John's father's doctor testify to his father's limitations. Or the two women could have testified to the actual substance of the conversation. Instead, they're caught with their pants down. Now, the defense did argue in their summation that the mere fact that they called the veto as a witness was kind of a Hail Mary because Lauren and Albert had imploded telling inconsistent stories. That was a credible argument that led the prosecutor to respond that John A veto was just for once in his life being a good guy, motivated to do the right thing. And that's the only reason he's cooperating. And that was just a bald-faced lie. So they squashed his problems in exchange for testimony. For the time being, they kept him out of jail despite repeated violations and a mandatory prison sentence. And then, once he was no longer needed a year later when he violated the program again, they threw him out with the trash and into prison he went when he no longer had any value to them. So this exchange of leniency for testimony represents just one Brady violation. But there's another major one in which Russo admitted to a fellow inmate named James Ingram to acting alone. We'll get into that Ingram evidence in more detail later, but back to trial. So now they go from two conflicting versions of the crime to three convicting versions of the crime. Not only are they different, they're internally incompatible. You can't square any one of the stories with the other. You had he gave Russo a gun for a robbery or he ordered the murder for street credibility or he told him to show him what's up because he disrespected him by sitting on the table or he was there himself at the ATM. And the concern here is you throw enough mud. However inconsistent it is that the risk and concern is that any jurors says, "Fall of these people are saying he did something. I may not know what the hell he did, but he sure as hell must have done it." Aren't they not supposed to or not allowed to offer conflicting theories of the crime? They're really supposed to take one theory and prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. That gives the jurors a Chinese suit menu of different theories because then you might have some jurors that believe this and some jurors that believe that. It's called the unanimity issue where they have to be unanimous about something. Yeah. To offer a menu of theories and basically say it doesn't matter. You know he did it, which is essentially what the summation amounted to. It's not consistent with due process and it leads to a jury possibly being six jurors say, "What if he ordered a murder?" Four jurors saying, "What if he gave him a gun for a robbery?" And what if two jurors say, "Maybe he was physically there." Okay, but we all agree he did it. Okay, guilty. That's absurd. But that's what happened. It was the worst day of my life. I was sentenced to 25 to life on October 19, 2005. Every idea you could form in your mind full of the reality of how bad that is. It's like bleak hopeless, debilitating misery. It's crippling that the pressure and despair you go through or just thinking about. I wasn't even alive for 25 years at that point when I got sentenced. I didn't even know what 25 years to start life. In part one of Jean-Jouk's story, you heard about all of the different characters and circumstances that led to his arrest and conviction. Now, here about his epic battle through post-conviction in part two, available now. Thank you for listening to Ronfell Conviction. Special thanks to our amazing production team, Conner Hall, Annie Chelsea, Jeff Clyburn and Kevin Wartis with Research by Laila Robinson. The music in this production was supplied by three-time Oscar-nominated composer Jay Ralf. Make sure to follow us on Instagram @Ronfellconviction on Facebook @Ronfellconviction podcast and on Twitter @Ronconviction as well as @LavaForGood on all three platforms. You can also follow on TikTok and Instagram @itsjasonflom. That's It's Jasonflom. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava For Good podcast in association with Signal Company number one. Hey Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armas in here. We're launching Podlandia AO rewatch. Our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together. Breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made. Yes stars, collaborators and friends, including director Jonathan Chrysler, the mayor himself Kyle McGlocklin, legendary musician Amy Mann and many more. You fully improvise not just words but a song about it. Well I thought you were all going to write a song. Listen to Podlandia AO rewatch on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up fam? Hey, what's up y'all? It's your girl Sam Jay. And we're the host of everyone watches women sports. A new podcast from together in iHeart women sports. We're breaking down the biggest headlines. Shout out to you now. The viral moments. Out of the obsessed with Koshan Rocks boxing journey. She looks good. The stories everyone's talking about across women sports. On the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The world gets crazier and Yamaneca is here to tell whoever's responsible you're the problem. Do you know I just found out who Sidney Swini was? Do better or do less so I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamaneca and I'm out. Listen to you're the problem with Yamaneca on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.