#335 Ed Barnhart - The Amazon Rainforest is Hiding a Lost Civilization?

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You can check difficulty ratings, terrain details, trail photos, even recent reports from other riders before you head out there. The other big thing is you can download maps ahead of time. Because once you lose service out there, your phone is pretty much useless. But with on-x off-road, everything still works offline. And if you're riding with a group, their location sharing feature lets everybody stay on the same map so nobody gets lost or separated. What I like most about it is it gives me a lot more confidence when I'm exploring somewhere new. I'm not wasting time backtracking, accidentally ending up on private land or trying to figure things out once I'm already deep into the trail system. I can plan ahead, know what I'm getting into, and spend more time actually enjoying the ride instead of worrying about navigation the whole time. Which on-x off-road in the app store or Google Play. Dr. Ed Barnhart, welcome to the show. It is a pleasure to be here, thanks for inviting me. A pleasure to have you. But yeah, I think I ran across your YouTube channel a little while ago, and we've been kind of wanting to dive into some ancient civilization stuff and some historic type stuff. So we've reached out, and here we are. So, you know, originally I wanted to talk about kind of just the Mayans and do a whole episode on that. But it looks like we got a lot more to cover, so we'll see how it goes. But I love this kind of stuff. We've had a couple of guys on, we've had Randall Carlson on, we've talked with Graham Hancock a couple of times, but have been able to work it out. And yeah, we've had some guys on, talking about Ancient Egypt and Tim Alvarino's been on. So, here you are. Well, I'm happy to be here, and thanks for highlighting the Americas, you know, most of the archaeology people knows about is somewhere outside of our hemisphere, and there's so much here. I'm thrilled to get a chance to talk about it. Well, let me start you off with an introduction here. Dr. Ed Barnhart, you're an archaeologist and explorer best known for your work study in the ancient civilizations of the Americas. You discovered and mapped the Maya city of Maxna, Masha, in Belize, and later led the Palang, I might say in this, Palenque, Mapping Project in Mexico, in 2003 you founded the Maya Exploration Center and have served as the director ever since. You also have a YouTube channel offering weekly deep dives into the ancient cultures of the Americas in addition to being the host of the ArchaeoEd podcast. Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Nice introduction. Thanks for that. So, before we get started, everybody gets a gift. Those are vigilance league gummy bears made here in the USA, actually up with Michigan. And it's just candy. Well, thank you. Yeah. I'm from Colorado. It might have had more in it, but I like candy just fine. Thank you very much, Sean. You're welcome. You're welcome. And then one other thing to knock out, I actually heard you have a Patreon account as well. I do. Do you have a Patreon account? It's a fraction of what yours is, but I think Patreon's great. I think that Google and all those other things, those algorithms are not really treating you and I well. I think Patreon's a great way for people that care about what we do to support us directly. Yeah. So, when I started out, I started this in my attic and was the year I was doing it. It was 2019. When I started this? Yeah. Yeah, I started this in Christmas of 2019. I think we're very much the same. I started my podcast like right when COVID started and I was trapped at home and I could not travel and couldn't do anything. I just went nuts and went into my holiday closet and just started talking to a microphone. Right on. It worked out. So these guys have been with me since the beginning and they were the ones that really supported me and carried me through all the way to today. And so we've turned it into one hell of a community. One of the things I do is they get the opportunity to ask each and every guest a question. So this is from Mad Dog Crazy. Do you believe the Mayans interacted with aliens into what degree? And how do you interpret the Mayan calendar or its supposed predictions when you compare them to what's happening in the world today? Let's leave out the Mayan calendar because I know we're going over that later. That's a long one. That's a long one. So, do you believe the Mayans interacted with aliens into what degree? I see no archaeological evidence that they did. Every one of their technologies, we see them building from rudimentary things to more complex things in a very understandable human fashion. I'm happy for this question because I have appeared on ancient aliens like 25 times now so people could get the impression that I'm pro alien theory. I at least want to come to the Maya that I've studied for my whole life. I see no evidence that they were influenced or in contact with aliens. Do you believe in aliens? Do you think they're out there? I do. I think it's a statistical impossibility that we're the only people in the universe. And I'll also say that the modern Maya today, big fans of the aliens things, every ruins I ever go to. I talk to the guards. I love to talk to the guards because they see everything. And they're always telling me that aliens are floating over the sights at night. Okay. They say they're green and red lights. So some of them say they're like spirits and some of them say they're aliens, but, you know, from hearsay out of the mouths of the Maya, they're sure interested in their ruins today. That's what they say. So when you say there's no archaeological evidence that they were interacting with any aliens, what, I mean, what archaeological evidence would you be looking for? I mean, that's a good question. I mean, how do we, how do we look for an artifact that we have never seen? How do we, what would be the evidence? I would think that the evidence would be some kind of like startling technology leap. One day they're stone age the next day they're building cars. That sort of thing. But the Maya were, you know, the Maya through their entire period never even got to metallurgy. So that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. I would expect some sort of large leap in technology and the kind of materials they're using, maybe in their medical sciences. But I don't see anything like that that would be, you know, unexplained other than contact. You know, we have lots of, lots of archaeological examples of one culture contacting another and that culture immediately picking up on new technologies and changing. That's the sort of thing. And on a, you know, on a, just a terrestrial scale, we see the evidence of that all the time. So if I was to look for something that could be alien contact, that would expect the same kind of radical technology. Adoption change and nothing in my history gives me that okay Sorry, don't I actually don't believe in aliens Well, I mean now the question of do I think aliens have been here That one kind of smacks of human hubris doesn't it? It's kind of like why would we be so important that an advanced species would even come and look at us that one's Less statistically possible, but the universe is so vast. How would we be the only sentient beings in it? I don't know Maybe we're the only ones created But how do you okay? So let's get into I just how did you get into this? How did you get it? What what what what what sparked the fascination with the ancient civilizations and the Americas for you? Well, I think that I'm one of those lucky people who have always been who I've been and I just had to figure out a way to channel it I was always an explorer even as a little kid my parents had to lock the front door Because I would just open it and walk out and keep walking I would just explore I explored the woods behind my house I explored go down the street until I was tired. I could be miles away and And so I mean I was always just thrilled to go explore new things and when I was 13 or 14 I went to the dollar theater in Irving, Texas and I saw Indiana Jones and I was like that's what I wanted to That looks cool to me. Of course, I've never gotten to fight in the Nazis or anything, but the archaeology part came true But I was a very bad student When the opening lines came up. It said like 1936 South America Honestly, I was like There's a South America. I Just thought there was America So I went and looked it up in the library and then I became obsessed with the Inca and Through high school I read all about the Inca and at the time They were talking about Machu Picchu being this one citadel up in the mountains But I thought there must be many more of those if that's where they prey. So I told the high school counselor. I said The the job counselor. She said, what do you want to do? I said well, I want to find a lost city She said that is not a practical job, Ed. You should try to find an actual career but you know, I kept with it. I went to school in Colorado mostly because I wanted to ski and Loan behold nobody knew anything about South America there or the Inca. There were no professors, but there was one for the Maya and so I started studying the Maya and In my I guess sophomore year, I signed up to do a field school in Honduras That was in a beautiful city called Copon And I called my dad and said, hey, I made it in this field school and he said you're an idiot You've never even been out of the country. You're gonna go to Honduras. I was like, oh, yeah I used to be one of the most dangerous countries in the world. It's am Pedro Sula San Pedro Sula was number one for a long time. Yeah, I was once walking around there and Going between my hotel in the museum and multiple people stopped me like, why are you on the street? You should get inside Yeah, I've been there too It's an interesting place. It's getting better. It's no longer number one I think it's like number eight or something. They're really they're on the rise right on Anyway, I I really fell in love with Copon and that's where I met my mentor Linda Shealy Who's the woman who broke the code of Maya hieroglyphics and I followed her to the University of Texas and there I got into the archaeology side of it and signed up to do the deepest of the jungle surveys they allowed their students to do and I found a city. You found a city in college. I did and when I was 25, I found Marshnah Everybody told me that was impossible that all the cities had been found that a student Leading students couldn't do such a thing, but I used these topography maps and I said if I was in Maya In this huge area. Where would I find it? Where would I put my city and I knew they put their pyramids and try and try ads and They symbolize the three hearth stones the civilization. I knew their farmers So I found this one spot and and also their pyramids are called toon wheat stone mountains So they revered the mountains and I looked and I looked for the tallest peak in the area found it And there were two little peaks right next to it with three rivers running through on the topography map in the 1990s. There was before our phones and everything and I just dumb luck I guess I said if I was in Maya, that's where I'd go and it took me two seasons to hike and cut out there with student groups, but it was there. How many students? anywhere from four to eight. That's it. Yeah, and the other trick that I did is I Bucks my professors Kind of demand that I just went in a straight western line through the hills because I have up down up down Season one I started finding these old overgrown logging roads that were from the British a hundred years ago And I was like why am I doing this transect when these roads Are the path of least resistance through these hills the same one that the Maya would have taken I'll follow in these roads out there. So I Liberated the roads as I went out there and ended up where I wanted to be and There was the city actually on the first hill. Not on the tallest hill. So hold on so So were you looking for anything in particular? I mean you'd mentioned that the the professor Sorry, I forgot her name already. Oh, I learned to see the Hyroglyph the Mayan Hyroglyphics Is there something that you guys translated that said there was like a lost city or something or we just go and hit There's probably cities out there that we haven't discovered yet. You're looking at topography going Where were I built a city? Shealy was in the art history department My professor from the archaeology anthropology department was Fred Valdez. So he they're two different professors But uh, it's just it's just a well-known fact that there are Thousands of Maya communities out there and we haven't found them all we still have not found all the Maya cities at all And so on my way to Moshna finding it I found Five uh, Maya villages and we mapped those out they'd have like 30 40 buildings nothing very big And then finally after going through I thought I was just in another village But then we ran into one that was like six meters tall and square and I thought that that's not a village building And soon after that we found one that was 18 meters tall and a hundred meters across and it was part of A big plaza where we found a ballcord and a palace and fallen steela and a big reservoir eventually. What is on a ballcord? What's that? The the Maya had a ballgame They had a ballgame with a rubber ball and the courts are very obvious They have sloping walls and little stands above and they have an open lane in the middle And so it they're easy to see even ruined the shape is very blatant that it was a ballcord and only big cities had ballcord And their plazas I'm at the point where if a shirt fits weird or can handle a real day I'm not going to wear it. I want clothes that are easy. 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And then it just runs, blocking the trackers, the fishing sites, and the surveillance ads across every app on the device, all day, quietly, without anybody having to do anything. It's first week out. It hit number six on Apple's top-downloaded productivity chart, built by former US intelligence professionals. Amaco founders, glacier, downloaded on the app store. And remember, privacy isn't paranoia, it's protection. So what time frame did the Mayans exist? Is it Maya or Mayans? That's a funny debate. And you know, one of the frustrating things about archaeology is there's no command structure. You know, in your world, you know, when the general says this is the way it is, that's it. Everybody does it. But in the Maya world, it's a competing thing. So some people like linguists want to say Mayan, but Linda Sheely, who broke the code, always want to say Maya, except for Mayan languages and Mayan architecture, which is also random. I tend to say Maya, just out of homage to my mentor. But it's a, it's a debate that nobody has the authority to, to finalize. OK. So either one's right, really. So we'll just give it the potato potato thing. How long do you know this civilization exists? Archaeology starts calling the people down there, Maya. Maybe 2000 BCE is the earliest that we really will say those people are Maya. 2000. Beesoo, so it was right. People down there, 10,000, 14,000. But you know, archaeology does this thing where they have to behave a certain way before that, they're that cultural group. So they start behaving like Maya. Somewhere around 4000 years ago, and then they reach their peak. We have a, we have a pre classic, a classic and a post classic Maya, the classic period where they made most of their pyramids and they really perfected their writing system and astronomy. That runs from about two 5080 to 800. And then there's this weird collapse, the famous like disappearance of the Maya. And really, they're just reforming themselves and they emerge again. And they're what we call their post classic form, all the way up until the Spanish contact. Okay. So the pre classic is this long period from, you know, it, it ends at that like 250 AD, but it starts 2000 1800. The cool thing about Maya archaeology is we're still figuring it out. I mean, as we sit here, somebody could be digging up the evidence that they were actually there for 500 years earlier than we thought. How, how far did their, it, it, it, it, the height, how, how big was the Empire? Where did it stretch from and to all of Guatemala, half of Honduras into, in Mexico, all the way up into the Yucatan, all of Belize and about halfway through Chiapas, which is the Mexican state that's adjacent to Guatemala. Okay. They're the line phrase and there's a couple of weird, not really Maya cities. And then we're into Zapotec and before them, Olmec territory. Okay. And on the other side, when you get into Honduras, there's a, there's a site called Los Naranjos on a lake, Agoyahoa, that's half Maya and half the next culture over the Lanca people. So we see the, the border of the Maya world blurring to the east and west, but to the north and south, it's from Cedicy. So a huge territory. And as a result, not all Maya are the same. The ones they grew up in the highlands with cold and snow behave differently than the ones that are down in the lowland jungles. Okay. What, what kind of, what were they documenting in hieroglyphics? What kind of things to do learned almost entirely at least of the things that we have to our to read left, which are all on stone. They're really broken records all about the kings. The king was born this day. He married this person. He fought these people. He was crowned this day. He died, kind of frustrating because the statuologies of one particular. Now we get some texts out of ceramics and ceramics are much, they, they'll tell different topics like sometimes those will give us little stories of mythology. There are some that say this is the king's cup. He drank chocolate out of it. And then we have four surviving books and those are gold. Those talk about hunting rituals. They talk about astronomy. They talk about deep time, deep time. What is that? Is that what they, they go back like in the codices specifically. I think the farthest they go back is 33,000 years. But that's a ridiculous long period of time to be talking about. There's these sections called the, the serpent pages in the Dresden codex. And they have these, this serpent body that winds down the page. And there are dates that go further and further back in time to 33,000 years ago. 33,000 years ago. And why did they go back that way? For a long time, we don't know. The first guys that started really understanding that. J. Eric Thompson was the big man in like the 1930s. He called the Maya esoteric time worshipers because we had nailed the calendar stuff. And we could read things like that. They're going back 33,000 years. There's a stela in Tikal that goes back five million years. Five million years, five million years. At least when we do the math, which is right there, it's goes back five million years. Thompson thought that was them saying that's the origin of the earth or the universe. But he generally said their esoteric time worshipers. He also said that these hieroglyphs mean nothing. They're just about their esoteric time worship that they, that's why they're going so far back in time. Now recently, one of my friends and colleagues, Mike Grofe, has really, Michael Grofe, has really nailed an argument that they're going so far back in time to exhibit their understanding of the procession of the equinoxes, which is that tiny wobble that the stars do from our perspective. Every 25,000, 26,000 years, the stars will completely reset every 72 years. They're moving one degree. That's something that's kind of the holy grail of ancient astronomy. If a culture understood the procession of the equinoxes, that meant that they were really crack astronomers. You know, you can do it. It's just one of the things that the Maya had that their surrounding groups did not is writing. So they could have a astronomer who would spend his entire lifetime recording the movements of the heavens, hand that book to his apprentice who would continue it and continue it. You can do it. I mean, we could do it today with no tools if we had enough time. Every 72 years, the stars move one degree. So if you are pegged on a star that's going to rise on the horizon at a certain time of year, 72 years later, it will rise one day later. And if you collect a couple of generations of information, you can see that and you can prove that, but then it's landmark. They don't. We have GPS and all this other shit today. How would they use? They can't use a tree, maybe a mountain peak. You could use a mountain peak. And they should also use a flat, constructed space. A lot of the Maya astronomy, we believe, was done with one person and stable viewer location with a stick. Another person with another stick tied to a rope. They pull it out so it's always the same distance and they mark. If you're going to look at the simple one, the sun of the moon, let's see where it rises. Today, it's right here. Tomorrow, it's right there. Next day, it's right there. Oh, wait, look, it's hovering over here and it's coming back. And day after day, you'd mark it in an angular fashion and then you could orient a building to that. Same concept can be used for stars, but it just takes a lot longer to collect enough data to realize they too, that seemingly static backdrop that the moon and the sun go through. is actually moving itself. And so that 33,000 years is talking about that the sun was in this constellation this year and 33,000 years ago it was also in that position on this state. Wow. It's the sidereal versus the sidenotic period of planets. Interesting. But they were they were great astronomers. We're jumping the gun here. We were we were actually talking about my beginnings and now I've got you smack dab in the middle of the Maya. But that's okay wherever the conversation flows. So yeah, so let's go back to you, you know, you're studying topography. I mean, talking about civilization documenting time five billion years ago, 33,000 years ago. Beginning of seems like existence, but I think we just four thousand years ago. I mean, his topography, I mean, how how much is topography changed in 4,000 years? How do you know what you're looking at was the same? 4,000 not much. 33,000. Yeah, a lot. But I mean, the mechanisms I think are not otherworldly. We are in such a world of technology. It feels like I I don't know how the hell I ever survived without myself home, but I did. And so do my granddad. And there are, you know, in some ways, you know, the less you have, the more ingenuative you become. You probably understand that being a guy that's been in the field with not everything you need. You know, that I am totally convinced that the average ancient person was a hell of a lot more resourceful than I am. And so there, you know, the methods of astronomy could be as simple as as you say, you know, what a hill from a certain position. I think we, you know, we undercredit farmers for a lot of their really smart stuff, the Maya were farmers. And I don't think, yeah, sometimes there's a narrative that paint that's painted that these these are rude. My priests told an ignorant group of farmers when the plant and when the harvest based on the astronomical cycles. And I think it's exactly the opposite. I think every farmer knows some sort of trick like that. When the sun comes over that hill, it's about time to plant. When it rises in that little valley, it's time to harvest. I think that the, we have an opposite. I think that the Maya priests were actually honoring the knowledge that every Maya farmer knew and was so foundational to their survival as a society. But how do you know that it didn't change much? I'm just, I mean, I used to live out the woods. And I had a creek. And I spent a lot of time down there. And I could see just, I've only been, well, I've been here for eight years. And the creek has changed drastically. I mean, to me, I mean, I'm down there every day, but change quite a bit. That's a point we'll take. And topography does change especially the coastal areas can change radically. One hurricane can move the entire coastline. I think it began with things, you know, not as ephemeral as those. I think it's, you know, mountain tops. A lot of our earliest of the Maya cities that we recognize there's some astronomy in there. The astronomy has to do with those mountains. And it's from, you know, from this valley, the, the farther it is away, the more solid it is, too. If it's, if it's a pyramid, a hundred feet from you, you know, three people will see the right alignment. Everybody, the right and left sees off. But if it's a mountain, 20 miles away, an entire group of people in a plaza would see the exact same alignment. So it began with at least my astronomy began with things like that that were, you know, alignments from a distance. I've wondered whether, you know, the Maya hieroglyphically say that their pyramids are called tomb wheat stone mountains. And I wonder whether the Maya origins in the Highlands, when they went down into the lowland jungles with no mountains, I wonder whether they thought, well, crap, we can't do this without mountains. We should build some. So how did you, I mean, on your excursion, I mean, they didn't, did you, you didn't, I would have met, I mean, now we see in documentaries and I think everybody uses light arms, things like that. Did you have that back then? I would assume. No, I did not. I ordered. I ordered topography maps from Belize that took two months to get to my house in Texas. GPS was just starting, but it was crappy. It would not see through the trees. So I could, I had one, but I could only mark my position when there was a treefall. And I could stand in an open patch and go, aha, we got one, we got one point, guys. Now light arm will take, you know, millions a second. I'd be like, we have a point. But it actually also got, got me in a tough situation in Belize where I, I let an assistant who was pretty new to the area. We had cut trails everywhere, but there were trails were all over the place you could get lost. Let him have the GPS to teach the students and they got, six of them got left behind and, and lost us. And by the time we got to the site, I counted everybody like co-crap or missing six people. And me and my other assistant chased them through the jungle the whole day and it was all about them getting lost from us because they were trying to use the GPS. It was much different back. So no, I had nothing, but you know, old school survey methods and thoughts. And I guess luck. I mean, how much I will give it that. I was not some brilliant Sherlock Holmes discovery of mine. I had some, some logical thinking and probably a lot of luck. Well, I mean, jungle down there's pretty thick. I mean, I've pumped through Panama, Costa Rica, Columbia. I was wondering if you've been in the jungle too. I love hanging out. I mean, it's dangerous. There's a lot of shit in that that will kill you. But it's beautiful, isn't it? It's amazing. And you can survive off nothing. Yeah, there's a lot of resources in there. But so I mean, how would you, I mean, some of these things are so thick that I mean, you'd be lucky to go a kilometer a day. There were times. There were some times, especially before I found the city, I was actually kind of the laughing stock of the camp that my students had just come back full of nettles and they'd be like, what'd you do today? Just uselessly hack the jungle and get stung by it? Like, yeah, I did. There's this, there's this vines that are called, uh, by y'all that are like, uh, like a rubber band ball just glued together. And if you hack one part with the machete, the rest of it could come unwound and just whack everybody in the whole group with these tiny black needles that would dig black poly. Like so deep into your skin. And they're so thin. You try to pull it out and just snap. And then, okay, I guess that's got a fester for a couple of days before it comes out. We had a guy, you know, insects will lay their larva in that. Yeah. And so we had a guy, yeah, that you're supposed to wear gloves when you're in there. We had a guy grab one, got infected. We're out there. We couldn't get back. You know, we're, we're doing some sniper stuff or something and he cut it open and the larva started coming out of his hand. We're like, oh, shit, this is nasty. So there was a girl in our camp who got 16 bot flies in her scalp. And those things they, they fester in there. And then they eventually fly out as flies, but they're worms with like a tail that latches into you so you can't pull them out. We, yeah, there's one that'll, you can't piss in the river down there because, you know, that thing will swim up your pee stream, pee stream. And then these little, it'll like, yeah, these, these, these spikes come out of it. Oh, I mean, I get real issues more than once somebody's come like, I'm swimming the Amazon with me, no hard pass. I'm staying on the boat. None of that stuff. Did you have any, did you have any interesting encounters with wildlife or, or indigenous peoples? Oh, there. A number, a number of them. I, you know, I have never seen a jaguar out there, but they've seen me. There was a time back there in Belize where there was a rain storm and then we came out the next day and followed our path up, but that day before when it rained, our feet had gone deep in the mud. So we made deep footprints following those footprints back out. There were jaguar prints in our footprints. And I was just like, oh, shit, how long did that go on? How close was it to us? Was it like right behind me? And we didn't see it, we didn't just smell our trail later. So that was, that was a wake up call, like be careful. They say when we lost those students and we went running for them, me and my assistant were yelling their names. And then there was something crashing in the woods just to the right of us. And we stopped and it stopped. And then we ran again and we heard it and it stopped again. I was like, Oh, that's big, Jim. I like to say, so we usually picked up some sticks. And we were like, we started just whispering, but like, we were both like, if that's a Jaguar, we're dead. There was a there. I've got another three stories like that where I'm just absolutely sure it was right there in the woods because it happened to other people. There was someone in Belize who got chased all the way back to our camp. But Jaguars are cool. Jaguars don't attack humans all that often. They're curious and they're playful. Now the one that you got to look out for, especially in Belize and Guatemala is the, the mountain lion version down there, Cougar. They've got a number of different names for these things, but they're big and long. And those have no sense of humor. Maya have told me again and again, Jaguars, you might live. It could be a good story. If you see a boom out there, you're dead. If they see you, it's over. Man, crocodiles, killer bees, big crocodiles. Oh, the bees, boy. I like, I had this one moment where I, my, I heard the bees coming again. And I just told my students, like, find a bush and lay down under it, lay on the ground. Those things will kill you. And they were like, why, just, just shut up. Don't talk about it. Do it. Maybe go like right over. But it's funny out in the jungle. There's these low, the low lying bushes. They never go under there. So I learned if you just lay totally flat on the ground, they will pass you. Man, now then there's also the pigs who run in like 40, 50 groups. So in those cases, I'd be like, find a tree without thorns and climb it right now. Like, why do you smell that? They are so stinky. You can smell them before you can hear them. Even before you hear their hooves, the waft comes through if the, if the breeze is right. And you know, it's the pigs coming. The first time it happened, I was totally flat foot. They just ran up on me. I was like, what's that smell? And one came right at me and turned. And then another 30 just turned right after him. And I just stood there flat footed like an idiot. Like, why aren't I dead? That was just blind luck. But from then on, I knew smell. Climb. So let's get back to traversing the jungle here. So you, so what do you got a machete at a GPS and a map? Really just the machete. The, the GPS did nothing for me back in the 90s and the map. I mean, I had the map. Sometimes I'd look at it and go like, wow, we couldn't hear. We could be there. And I'd sometimes like season three, we had the GPS. So I'd put a couple GPS marks on there. But mostly I just had a compass and a machete and said, uh, my mantra was, we're going west. We're going west. We know we entered the forest here at mile marker 11. And I can see some of these dashed lines that were where the old British logging roads would be. Sometimes they were actually roads there. Sometimes there won't, there weren't, but we just kind of pieced it together and followed that those roads through the path of least resistance, which brought us into a number of valleys where little villages were. And eventually we made it out to those three peaks. Any active villages? No, nobody out there. So I mean, what is it? How long ago did these villages exist? People have been doing, you know, this was 1995. So people have done archaeology out there since this is a machinosa terminal classic city. So it lasted till about 900 or a thousand AD. Okay. And then nobody, nobody's out there at all. They, you know, the where I lived was a place called program for Belize, which was a big chunk of territory that was originally owned by Coca Cola. Coca Cola wanted to chop the whole thing down and plant oranges for their orange drink, whatever it is, crusher. Yeah, I think that's it. And then Belize got up in arms about it. So Coca Cola didn't want the bad press and sold it to them for pennies on the dollar. And it became a big preserve all the way out to the Guatemalan border. Well, I mean, how are you able to pick this up? I mean, just I don't know what these structures are made of, but I mean, you abandoned a house here in the mid-south, the Midwest, probably anywhere, you know, 10, 20 years. It's got a tree growing through the window seal. You know, it's you're talking about things that are a thousand years old. Yeah. And they are very in the jungle. They are very destroyed, but they are made of stone and some of the little villages they'd have stone platforms that were probably like, you know, some of them were the size of the platform we're sitting on right now and not much higher. But you could still see the stone edges of it, see the little bit of stone walls, see, you know, irregular topography is one of the ways that I'd identify it. It is a trek. It's a skill to understand what's a hill and what's a ruined pyramid. When it's 18 meters tall and a hundred meters across, well, it's easy to understand. And those, but there's not any good things, you'd say bits of stone wall bits of terraces and up on the very top where things tend to, you know, spire from the top to the bottom. The bottoms are full, kind of fan out with all the wreckage trees grow up and knuckle sections of it out, trees, big trees over the last thousand years grow up and fall out and take huge amounts of the building with them with their roots. But up on top often, like the first building we found at Moshna when we got up on top of it, there were holes in the roof, the, the horrible roofs we could jump down inside and see there were walls around us and things. So we could definitely know that one was one. Wow. But in when I was mapping Palenque, there were places where I'd say there's a hole, there 10 meters away is a huge pile of, of rocks. A tree grew up into this house. And when it fell, its roots catapulted all of the bricks over there in the jungle. This building's gone, but there's the evidence that it was once here. It's, it's a trick though. I really, more than once, I've brought people out to the jungle and go, see all these buildings. They're like, what the hell are you talking about, Ed? There's nothing but dirt and trees here. So it's drop in through a roof. What's in there? Drop into a place where there's been nobody for a thousand years plus. There'd be stone walls, the corbal roof above you. I've never, I've never gotten lucky enough to find anything that had like murals or art inside of it. No human remains pottery. Mostly those ones would be, you know, there's dirt, there's bat guano, which is actually uncool, that you can get histoplasmosis really easily. From bat guano hanging out in tunnels, I did that. I have like a calcified scar in my lung. That's the size of a quarter. I just had some new tests and nobody had, nobody had mentioned that to me in 25 years. Like, do you know, you have a big calcified scar in your lung? Oh yeah, I do have that tonite. That was from histoplasmosis from screwing around in, in, in my buildings. But there'd be the collapse where the roof fell in that would let us get the hole. So you kind of climb down the talus of that onto the floor, which would be grown up with moss and you could, but you could see the stone wall, sometimes some of the old stucco coming off, sometimes not. But yeah, there's, I've done that a bunch there. Sometimes there are big platforms that have lower kind of basement buildings inside and those are fun. You just find a little hole in all of a sudden you pop down and you're in the middle of a labyrinth. I love things like that. But it's the jungle. So you're also kind of butt puckered going, if there's a snake in this tiny little space, I really can't run. Can I? So what's the name of the city? Is it the big one that you found? Masha. No, I got to name it. It's called Monkey House. Monkey House. What is the estimated population? Oh gosh, I don't think we've even gotten that far yet. I think I mapped 400 buildings, 400 buildings. But I know there were more. Every Friday, I'd say we're doing adventure day and we go somewhere without mapping and just see how many buildings we could find and there were whole neighborhoods that I never got to map. Wow. - In the villages, what would it, what would it village be? - The villages that have like 20 to 30 buildings, so if we, if we very ploddingly estimate five people per building there'd be 150 people or something. - So how far away would these villages be from the hub, from the city? - In that limited context, they were about, I'll say a kilometer apart from each other. I've got seven of them and from the road to the actual city was five and a half kilometers. - So do we know how their civilization was actually broken up? If we, what would take part, what would be happening in the city versus the villages, what they commute? - It was industry. - Not terribly different than how we live today. You know, we were outside of Nashville that's a big city and then there are some mid-sized cities like Franklin and then there's some people who prefer to live on the countryside and you know, on big events, everybody goes into the big city. On the average day, you hang out in your own place. They'd have market days where, you know, the city would have the huge market and a lot of people from the surrounding area would go in there to peddle their goods. That still happens in the Maya world today, but it was very much a, it was an independent city state model like the Greeks, where there was not a capital of the Maya world. There were capitals run by, at least in the classic period, a ruling, dynastic set of elite people who would be the families of each one of those cities. And because of hieroglyphs, we know what their names are, we know the dynasties of these kings. And then they'd have sub cities that would have sub-lords called Sahals, the guy at the main city's the Ahal, the ones that are little cities, they're Sahals. And then those Sahals would have farmland around them. So, not terribly unlike how we live today. - So how would you become a leader, or a king, or a lord? Is that, how do you, how? - It was a dynastic thing. You were, it was a blood right that you had the magical power, 'cause it wasn't just a political position, it was also a warlord position, but it was also a religious position. The, the right, the, what's the word I'm looking for? Your validation of your rulership was about your sacred blood. The Maya have a religion that has a pantheon of gods up there, but nobody interacts with the gods on earth. They are aloof from us, but when the royal people's family die, they go up into the heavens and living ancestors of those people can talk to the gods, they can act as a liaison up there. They're dead ancestors that went up to heaven, or up to the upper world instead of the lower world, where everybody else's souls go. That was their right to rulership, or at least their story that they told everybody. - So these, they believe that the lords and the kings want to, want to an upper world, and all of the peasants per se want to a lower world. - That's what the hieroglyphs are telling us, yes. - Well, they would, they would all start in the lower world, the underworld, but then the spirits of the royal families bloodline would ascend up into the heavens where the gods were, the nice gods. There were less nice gods in the underworld. - Really? - Yeah, what did they do? - They were the lords of death, and they'd have ugly names like pestilence and starvation and pus. At least that's what, the Maya have the equivalent of the Christian Bible. They have their own creation story called the Populvoo, a very different story. - What is that story? - It says there were four creations that we are members of the fourth creation that are made of the blood of the gods and corn. We're kind of more perfect than the other creations that were made of mud or wood. The story itself centers around the moments of the end of the third creation, where a set of hero twins fight the lords of death in a Maya ballgame, defeat them, and through that protect the world for us humans. And they resurrect their father who was killed by the lords of death, send him up into the sky. He becomes the maize god, the corn god. Corn is created. We are made of corn and drops of the blood of the gods. And that's how the world started. But a lot of the story is this really fun story of the hero twins and their fights against the lords of death and their early days, their grandmother raises them and she tries to tell them they're not ballplayers and hide that because that's how their fathers died. And then the story goes on where they eventually beat these terrible lords of death. But we're quite clear in that underworld shibalba where the dead reside. The dead are doing fine down there. In a Maya sense, our grandparents, everybody lived down in the underworld in a village that looks just like the village that they grew up in and they were down there farming and they're having a nice life and they're living in a house they're just dead. And when the sun sets on us, it rises on them. And when it sets on them, it rises on us. But then there's another set of gods that live above the sky. And those guys are the ones that pull the strings on us puppets and the Maya kings to bring it back have this special kind of blood. When they bleed their own blood and burn it on paper in a bowl that smoke goes up into the sky and it becomes a conduit through which one Maya king on earth can speak to his ancestors up in the sky and say, hey, would you talk to Chuck for me and make sure we have a good reign for the harvest this year? Or will you ask the gods to bless us in the battle we're about to do against this other city? - Interesting. - So that's how it worked. To us, it's hopeless, but to millions of Maya people, it was how things really worked. And perhaps that sort of story that was no longer believed or supported is part of why the Maya civilization collapsed. When things started getting rough, the kings could no longer say, well, I'll just let my blood. And I'll ask for their favor and will all be fine when things weren't fine. They were like, well, either that's not working or you're a liar. Either way, I'm leaving the city. What is, you know, really got my first nation with this was Mel Gibson's Apocalypse of Louis. That was about the Mayans, correct? It was. What do you think about that movie? - You know, I thought it was a great action movie. The bad guys were bad. The good guys were good. I was cheering for it. I don't think it was a Maya documentary. I don't think it made a very complimentary or true picture of who the Maya were. And, you know, my colleagues, there's a mountain of bile been spit about that movie. - Okay. - I don't take it that hard. I don't think that, you know, Mel Gibson is not a Maya academic nor did he pretend to be. I think it's, I think it's Mel Gibson's story. - It's a book. - Put into another cultural context. It was the, you know, the passion of the Brave Heart Patriot. It was the same story. The good family man is threatened by the machine of society and fights it to save his family. - Look, I am really picky when it comes to gear. 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And if you're outfitting a law enforcement unit, military team, or looking for corporate gifts that your team will actually like, Roca has wholesale partnerships too. I've been wearing roca for a while now, and let me tell you, they are the real deal. Ready to upgrade your eyewear for summer? Check them out for yourself at roka.com and use code SRS for 20% off-site-wide at checkout. That's roka.com code SRS. So how did they live that? What was daily life for your typical mine family? I think it was pretty laid back really until like the 600s when kings were sending armies to war against each other and disrupted things. But the the average Maya city, I think they were pretty prosperous and happy. They would, you know, they tend their little farm. They'd go to the market. They'd chat with their friends. They'd go back to their little house. I think that they felt protected within the kingdom of a king with a standing army and the influence of the gods. I think that life was was pretty nice really. There's a, you know, as we said earlier, the the jungle's inhospitable, but it's also abundant. I mean, foods fallen from the sky there. And if you manage it right, I don't think people were going hungry. I think people were feeling just fine. And I think that how all too often in humanity, when things are too good, we ruin them by gangpiling them. So part of the problem with Maya Classic Society, it was such a successful model that all of the cities swelled in population until they actually managed to crest their carrying capacity. How did they, did they have currency? No, more of a barter system. Now, it's, it's kind of, you know, we're still piecing together classic Maya times. The Maya were still here when the Spanish got here. So we've got those answers. But is that how Maya behaved 500 years earlier? That's a, that's, that's hard to say with certainty. By the time we get to the Aztecs, they're still barter system. But even in a barter system, you need some sort of practical, you know, what's this versus this worth? And for them, it was chocolate. It was chocolate beans. Okay. And so the, the cacao beans were not exactly currency. Nobody walked into the market with 30 beans in their, in their pocket and walked out, but you could say, you know, how much is that corn worth? Three, three cacao beans. Gotcha. So much so that actually there were counterfeit beans. One of the things Cortez's men saw in the Aztec market before the real siege happened was that there were police in the Aztec market that was, you know, 60,000 people a day, they said, they said it was the biggest one in the world they had ever seen. But there were police running around busting people with counterfeit cacao beans. They'd make them out of ceramic and they'd try to pedal them off in the market and, and they'd get caught by the, by the Aztec police for counterfeit chocolate. Wow. Wow. Let's talk about, I mean, it's human sacrifice. Was that a big part of the Mayan religious culture? At the end, in the post classic period, it was in the classic period, not as much. They ex, they, they sacrificed people that were warriors that they'd capture in battles near the end of the classic period, but in the classic period, the most common and austere kind of sacrifice was the auto sacrifice that the king and his family did. They would cut themselves and bleed the blood and then burn it to contact their ancestors through the smoke. The smoke would become this snake called the Boots Chon, the smoke serpent, and it would go up into heaven and become a conduit for their ancestors to come back down and talk to them. There's actual images of that happening at a site called Yashi Lawn. There's this great thing with a, a queen pulling a rope with thorns on it through her tongue. And the blood is dripping down her chin onto a bowl with paper. And the paper's burning and the smoke starts, but then it turns into the snake that has a head that comes down over her and it opens up its mouth. And it burps out the dynastic founder of the Yashi Lawn lineage who's coming out with a shield and a spear. And the hieroglyphs tell us she's asking him to protect her husband and the batteries about to go to. That's fascinating, but that's how they did it. And so that was the sacrifice. It was auto sacrifice in the classic period. Western or Central Mexico was much more violent. They had a much, a much bigger penchant for sacrifice, especially the Aztecs. And in the post classic period of the Maya, they start getting really, they're interacting with and emulating the people from Central Mexico. That's when we see like a Chichen Itza, you ever been to Yucatan? You ever seen the Chichen Itza? I haven't. It's beautiful tourist place easy to get to. But right next to its ball court is a skull rack. And the whole thing, the base of it is full of images of skulls on spikes. And it's almost undeniable that on top of that platform was an actual skull rack that had the skulls of thousands of sacrificed people. How would they sacrifice them? Generally hard extraction. Cutting the head off for hard extraction. The Maya loved hard, they loved the head thing. They loved to chop somebody's head off on the top of a pyramid and then have it dramatically roll down the stairs like a ball. They show that in imagery in multiple places. But hard extractions the other way, where you lean them over a rock, that's the Central Mexican way, where their chest was kind of poked out. And then they take an obsidian knife and whack, break a couple of the ribs and then push down on one section, pull up on another and just pull the hard out, still beating. Like pretty brutal. Pretty brutal. And they were the point of that beat. I don't know. But certainly the end result would be fear. Like, I don't want to be that guy. The Aztecs used it brilliantly. They would bring, you know, the mayor of a new town, but they were trying to just get into the empire through just coercion. They'd bring them to to no shit lawn and show him one of these heart extraction things and be like, would you like your people to do that? Or would you like to send us 3,000 rubber patties a month? I'll pick the rubber patties. Please don't do that to me. But the Aztecs are a different people than the Maya. So this wasn't necessarily a religious sacrifice to the gods. This was more of an intimidation factor to people that they want to conquer. I think it was both. And in the case of the Aztecs, which is the example I was just giving you, they had a different religion than the Maya. They were associated. There were sometimes, you know, crossovers between the gods that they recognized. But the Aztec story, the Meshika people, they believed that they were first and foremost following the God of war. We'd see LaPocheli. And their priests said that their creation story said that the sun only rose and set because the gods had had the bravery to sacrifice themselves. And that going forward into humanity, only sacrifices would make the sun keep coming up. And especially this war God, we see LaPocheli said, I need sacrifices in order to help the sun keep coming up. And so the Aztecs, more than everybody else around them, started sacrificing people like crazy. Wow. Well, before we get into it, let's stick with the Mayans right now. Yeah. And so in the other sacrifice would be the head people on top of a pyramid and let the head roll down like a ball. So that's what we see mostly with the Maya, though they did the heart extraction in the post classic two and they didn't do in the classic period that didn't do it too much. And it was mostly, it wasn't like everybody. It wasn't like women and children. It was warriors and elite folks that that had been captured in battle. So would they do this by the tens, by the hundreds, by the thousands, you know, by the art and by the archaeology, you know, you can, you can find piles of bodies when people are killing people. Archaeology can find huge piles of bodies and see the pathology of them. We do see that in the post classic and especially the Aztec area. We don't see it so much in the Maya area. So I don't think it was a huge volume. But their art shows it happening again and again. One of the neat things, you know, you're a soldier and you, you know, our Western society is a lot about killing the enemy and acquiring their land. That's not what the Maya were doing. When we see like a mural of Maya battles, it's so interesting when you look at it, nobody's taking a kill shot. If you were to make a battle of a mural of a battle, you'd have a lot of people get them killed. But that's not what they do. Every time, like there's a really famous one, the most famous one is from Bonnampoc, big, huge room full of just a battle all around you. But all the spears are pointed down. They're stabbing each other in the legs or in the back. They want them to mobilize them so they can haul them back to their city and sacrifice them. And you can see it in the mural. Nobody, like there's this Bonnampoc has maybe 60 people in this big pitched battle, not a single person is dead or getting a kill shot in that mural. They're all getting stabbed in the legs. So they're actually going to combat to capture humans to sacrifice to their gods. But we don't know what they were sacrificing them for. I think it was to honor the gods in that limited context. In the Maya, in the classic Maya period, it was brave warriors meeting each other, winning or losing, and then the ceremony of taking their life back in their city, in their ceremonial context instead of killing them on the battlefield. I think that the interesting thing to me, and you know, let me not overstate that I know what the hell these people were thinking. I'm guessing too. I just have been guessing for 30 years. And perhaps I have insight that other folks do, but I would not pretend I really know the Maya mindset. I think that with that caveat, I'll continue that bringing them back to this ceremonial place where they are sacrificed with the proper words and ceremony was the goal. But it's interesting, like, when they attacked each other, it was not about acquiring resources or killing people. It was about the favor of the gods. I think the Maya were always very cognizant that they're just kind of puppets on strings that everything we're doing is to gain the favor of the gods and to protect our relationship to them through the kings and their bloodletting. It's so Maya battles get fought and cities win and lose, but they don't just take over that city and put their flag up. What they want is that king to use his bloodletting ability to gain the favor of the gods. So these battles are on a practical level about acquiring that city's ability to influence the gods, not their crops, not their buildings. They still allow them to fly their same flag, but they want them to do is use their magical influence through their blood for the team that just defeated them. That's why they take the elite crowd. Right. Oftentimes wiping out the bloodline is a way to totally defeat that city's real power, which is their access to the gods, or you either kill them or you coerce them to use it for you. Interesting. So the conquered cities, they wipe out the bloodlines, sacrifice that to the gods to get the power or whatever you want to call like. So who would that's like the Highlander when you talk about it? Who would rule the city that has been conquered that would do? Sometimes they put their own person in. Sometimes they'd install their own person from their bloodline, or sometimes that city would just die out, or they'd take like the princesses from that city and marry their bloodline into them, and then they were both. A huge Maya strategy was intermarriage. There's this whole huge Maya Civil War that we learned about maybe 20 years ago, and now we're really just putting together this magnificent picture of the two sides of this war. We know the two big players, their Tikal and Kalakmul, but the entire Maya world was either team Tikal or team Kalakmul. And for a long time, Kalakmul had the better of them. Tikal was the big one in Guatemala, and it had all sorts of allies all around it. And it intermarried its daughters into their lineages. They were all very intermarried. There's a new book out by a great colleague of mine, David Stewart, who shows more and more how the Maya elites were intermarrying non-stop, kind of like, you know, how Europe became so crazy and sensuous, near the end of their dynastic periods, where everybody, you know, England's royalty is actually a bunch of Germans, is actually a bunch of Austrians, and that that intermarriage, that same thing happened with the Maya. So the Tikal thought they had everything worked out. They were like the Rome of the Maya world. They would oversee all the other cities, dynastic changes. They were the rulers, but unbeknownst to them, Kalakmul to the north of them was intermarrying their daughters into all these cities. And then all of a sudden attack from every angle, and Tikal was defeated, but not totally taken out. They still had kings. Those kings just had to work for Kalakmul. And they sat there for 80 years without any attempt to break Kalakmul's yoke. But then Kalakmul does something unforgivable. They convince the brother of the Tikal king, like 80 years into this, into establishing a new city with the same Tikal emblem glyph, but it's called, we call it Dospelus. And that brother of the same bloodline starts contacting the gods, with the same power that Tikal does. Tikal can't take it. That king immediately attacks the brother. And they fight back and forth. Tikal's king puts him on the run. And eventually Kalakmul helps that brother to get back and kills the Tikal king. The next Tikal king actually breaks the yoke. But I always think to myself, how was that the moment that broke Tikal? Why was that the moment that broke Tikal? It was his brother betraying him and using his same power to contact the gods. That's what snapped him. Interesting. So I mean, at the beginning, you said that the Mayans are, it's not really a nation with one capital, there's several capitals. And so I would think there would be, you know, that to me sounds like they're not communicating with each other. It's not, it's not one, one nation per se. So I would imagine there was a lot of civil war. It got crazy. And that's, this kind of precipitates the end of the classic period. I mean, just like, you know, in Europe, just because, you know, France and Germany were fighting each other, that doesn't mean there weren't like undercurrents of communication between, you know, families and spies and things. So there wasn't totally no communication. But there was definitely a, you're on my side or you're not. So all these all these capitals per se within the Mayan, what the Mayan race, I guess. Civilization region, yeah. Sure. They would all be competing for the grace of the gods, correct? Right. And there'd be tears of them. There'd be, you know, some and allies and enemies that we have this fantastic chart that's been made of all the allies and the enemies, you know, in red and green. And then there's, there's lots of intrigue and backstabbing. There's, there's a city called Neuronho that flip flops back and forth from team Tikal to team, Collock Moul again and again. In fact, the, a daughter of the brother who betrays Tikal and goes to Dosepilus, Tikal totally wipes out Neuronho's bloodline. No more kings that can conjure the gods. But then behind their back with Collock Moul's backing, they take a princess, a young woman from Dosepilus marry her into Neuronho's line. And her son becomes the next great king there. But while he's a boy, she's a female warrior. And she's shown on Steel After Stila using her power to contact the gods as their queen and fighting. We see her with weapons. She's like the Joan of Arc of the Maya world. She takes over. I think it's six different cities. All while he's growing up and as soon as he's 12, he becomes the king and she steps in a consort position. But it's fascinating all the things we know. I mean, isn't it shocking that I can talk about. my history, like it's European history, that's the power of these hieroglyphs in this art. This is really the first American side of the world culture that we can talk about like this. Wow. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know this is something I care about. We've had regenerative farmers and health experts on. We've talked about soil health, clean water, glyphosate, food security, and how disconnected most Americans are from where their food actually comes from. Might be time to start paying some attention. We've talked about foreign ownership of American farmland, China. We even did an episode that called out the government for selling off public lands in Utah. 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They're more about, this is the appropriate time to go hunting and this is the appropriate time to eat deer and these are inappropriate times to do that. There's a god of hunting called ectua. He's a weird black striped-faced guy but he's the guy who says, you'll have good luck hunting. You'll have bad luck hunting. But they're also saying good luck or bad luck, is it to the, whatever the king says. No, I mean in this context, I'm talking about hieroglyphs that actually say it's good, it's bad. These are the dates that you're supposed to be doing this on. Okay. Not in a like annual hunting season kind of way, because that's what I'm asking is who would get the dates. I mean you're talking, I guess it would be the king who's doing the blood sacrifice, right, with the smoke. And it's priestly class. And so how would that message get to him and get to cypher to everybody else's? Oh, I get you now, you know, not every message came from the beyond. That's what the calendar is about. The calendar is about these cycles. And probably they believed that their original inspiration for the calendar was the gods and their statements. But my aprice would use this calendar to kind of in a, in a horoscope kind of way tell you when a good day or a bad day was for things. The first 23 pages of the Dresden Codex, which was my translating it was my master's degree, there's nothing we call them the prognostication pages. And they use the, the my calendar, the simplest my calendar, the 260 day calendar, to say these are good days to get married. These are bad days to get married. These are good days to be keep. These are bad days to be keep. This is a good day to build a house there that each one of the almond acts are telling us something different about it's a good day or it's a bad day. And there are little grip glyph blocks, four to six glyph blocks that are saying, this guy is beekeeping. It is bad. Or they use a euphemism like, and it was tortillas. And the other one, a bad one, there were, there were five or six different little euphemisms they'd use for good or bad. Like it was burial or it was famine. That would be the bad things or it was, it was an abundance of tortillas. Or it was a happy things like that. But they were, they used those prognostications. So the, the deer hunting pages that I was talking about have much the same system where it's saying on days like, you know, that I'm just making this up, but you know, on, on a how dog and rabbit days, those are good hunting days. Don't ever hunt on a Flint day. That's a bad day to hunt. How did the calendar get developed? I mean, a lot of people, was it 2012? The calendar ended a lot of people thought that the, the world was going to end a whole bunch of people did. 2012 was, did you was very, very good to me. No, I did not. I was, I got to do a whole lecture circuit about exactly why I thought that was bullshit. That was, that was great. Um, no, I think that was a misunderstanding of our, our understanding of the calendar and its cyclical nature. We, westerners, you know, if I, if I asked the average westerner to draw me a picture of time, they would probably draw a dot in the present. They would have a line going to the future. They would align going into the past. That question asked if a Maya would be a circle and not a clock with hands going that way. That could be somebody might draw that one for me too. But very cyclical in nature. So the Maya feel like everything that's happened will happen again in one fashion or another. There's a cyclical nature of time they would never predict an end. That's just not how their conception of time works. Interesting. When they created the calendar, gosh, I, you know, the, the earliest, the very first calendar glyph we have is tied to about 600 BC. And it's not Maya. It's Zapotech. It's in the Valley of Wohaka. All of those cultures were kind of coming up with these ideas and bantering them back and forth about calendars and time and just simply how to express math around that last centuries of the BC period. But it's tricky to say when they did it, because I've always said, you know, by the time somebody carves it in stone, they've been thinking about it for a while. By the time we archaeologists find it carves in stone, gosh, they must have, you know, perfected the system, you know, a long time earlier. That's interesting. So they thought time was a circle. A cycle. What's that? Actually, we in the Western world are aberrant. If we look at most of the cultures of the world, they are much more cyclically oriented than we are. Our timeline thing is the aberration, not the cycle. What would they think about eclipses and is there any documentation on that? What would they think when I know? Generally speaking, they were freaked out by them. They did not like them. They still don't like them. I've been in my abilities where eclipses are answered by getting outside of your house and banging pots and pans in the dogs bark and they want to chase it off, especially like when the moon goes away. They were capable of predicting them, really, not perfectly kind of a shotgun approach, but there's a page again, if we only had 100 Maya books, God, we'd know so much from the four we have, we see so much insight. I wish, you know, where's the recipe book? Where's the history book? We got an astronomy book, we got a hunting book. But in the Dresden Codex again, there are a couple of pages to talk about eclipses and [BLANK_AUDIO] out that it was every five or six lunations of the moon. They figured out the concept of nodes that they didn't, they did not know that it was the sun and the moon and the earth lining up. But they did realize that every five or six moon cycles was the only time it could happen. So there are charts that show they say 148 days, 148 days, 148 days, 148 days, 148 days, and then every once in a while they'll go 177 days, 148, 148. And that's five or six lunations of the moon. So we can tell they're making these shotgun approaches to try to figure out when and eclipse would happen and pictures right next to it show like a sky band with the with the moon goddess hanging dead off of it and another symbol that has the sun half black half sun. It's the even without the numbers. It's pretty blatant that they were talking about eclipses. But the numbers themselves show us that they they weren't quite as good as the Greeks got at it, but they did have the concept down. They understood that there were certain nodes that it could happen on. They couldn't say like this time it won't, this time it will, but they knew they knew the cycle. Gotcha. How advanced were their mathematics? Pretty darn advanced really. I mean they could do anything with their math system that we can do. Which I think just alone on a base level, that's impressive. It was their number system. We have a system that's better than what the Romans and the Greeks were using. The Romans and the Greeks, like you know Roman numerals, it's one, two, three, but then the next one is IV and then it's V and then it's VI and then you get to 10 and it's X and then it's, you know what I'm talking about. That is not a positional system of numeration. That's why, you know, did you ever get a like a movie in the 1980s and they put the name, the year in Roman numerals instead and it was like 20 Roman numerals, like, God, what a terrible system. Just to say 1983, that's all this mess. We have a positional system of numeration. We go one through nine and then, and then the next one is 10 and what we do is we put a zero in the ones column and a one in the tenths column. Then we get to 99. We have another position that comes up. We have a zero in the ones, a zero in the tens and a one in the hundreds, right? That's how our system works. That's positional. Look, that's the same thing my students do, like, are you talking about math again? Please go away. But you asked, the Maya have a base 20 system. So they work just like we do. We're base 10, but theirs goes up one through 19. When you hit 20, you have a zero in the ones and a one in the 20s. Okay. And then you go to 400 and then you go to 6,000, 8,000. But they can do the same thing. They can express any number approaching infinity with their number system. But the cool thing is our system, we have a one through a nine and then a zero. That's 10 symbols, right? With it, we can express any number. The Maya have a bar. They have a dot for one. They have a bar for five. And then they have a shell or a flower for zero. They can also express every number, but they did it with just three symbols. In that regard, their mathematical system is more elegant than ours. They pulled it off with just three symbols. We have to use 10. Wow. Yeah. And they did. They used, you know, like I told you earlier, there's one calculation. We can see they said five million years. The frustrating thing about the Maya math is that they're always talking about time. They're very rarely talking about big numbers of things. And I wish I would see more, you know, why doesn't somebody tell me there's 10,000 people? I want to read that number. The reason I want to read it is because part of the Maya calendar is this really weird cycle called the long count. That's their kind of most linear count of days. But within the long count, there's days, months, years, 20 year periods, 400 year periods. But the years, it's only 360 days. That's, it's double weird because one, a year is 365 days. Why would they be five days off and just keep doing it and never correct it, which is what happened. That's the long count is weird like that. But the other one is mathematically, if you're in a base 20 system of the decimal system of numeration, you should go one, 20, 400, 8,000, 160,000. But the Maya long count goes one, 20, 360, 7,600 and on up. So they augment that third position to 360, not 400. So a straight counting of things, are they using their system properly or are they augmenting it like they do the count of days in the long count? We have thousands examples of them using this log augmented system. But nothing now. God dang it. Can somebody tell me there's 400 captives so I can read how you do your math system with things instead of days? Interesting. It hasn't happened yet. But it's one of these confusions. I am, I'm a Maya math nerd. I've been studying this thing for my whole life. And I've been dying to see some, but some Maya count something that's not days to see if they actually adhere to a 20 base system or do they not? I mean, they have to, but I don't have the proof. What would they do with their debt? They bury them under their houses. They would bury them under their houses. Yep. Which I think is wonderful in a way. I guess I've been infected by the Maya. But to our society, that's kind of a cob. You put them in the cemetery, where you're supposed to put them. But they felt this connection like we have these ghost stories. The Maya have no ghost stories. They are absolutely convinced that the spirits of their ancestors are here and they mean to help us. And so having grandma under your bed as you sleep is nice to them. It would be weird to us. And we have all sorts of, you know, European baggage about ghosts and remnants, vampires, zombies and all this crap. The Maya have none of that. And I think it's a deep connection to their belief that their ancestors never really leave them. And their ancestors want to come home. So they just keep them there. Right on. What was the, what kind of ended the Maya Empire? Infectious disease, honestly, was the number one killer of the Maya Empire. In the 1500s, the Spanish came in, of course, you know, conquest and the sword didn't help either. But really, it was infectious disease that ruined everyone. I mean, and it's proof that there was not that much contact before. Because once contact really happened, 90% of people were dead in the first 50 years. Wow. Our debate is how many people were here. And today, you know, I think that I am now saying a conservative number when I say 100 million people died in the first 50 years. Holy shit. Across the Americas, that's North America to South America. But there were millions of people that got hit with 13 infectious pandemic diseases. Europe had gained herd immunity. You know how we talk about, you know, COVID's not gone. We just got to, you know, herd immunity. And of course, we have vaccines too. But Europe didn't have these vaccines, but they did get a herd immunity after the black plague and all of that. But it was still dormant in their population. So when the population hit the Americas who had never been exposed to this stuff, the disease has just rolled in. And then sadly, you know, one of the real ironies of that is they did come to conquest and they did enslave the Indians. And the Indians died off to such a great extent that they stole Africans and hauled them over to be slaves. But Africa brought its own infectious diseases that they had had herd immunity in. That's when like yellow feed fever and malaria showed up. But from this moment, the first European stepped on the continent, they were dead. You know, there were ones that died by the sword. But if not for the infectious diseases, we'd be living in a different world right now. Okay. And who documented those infectious diseases without the Europeans? Oh, yeah. The Europeans, you know, the, it's, God, the most tragic cases are the first contact in the Caribbean, just how fast it happened. They, you know, they, they landed in Hispaniola and, you know, Jamaica area, Cuba and, and what's now half Dominican Republic, half 80. And those people, like, almost everybody was dead in the first 10 years. Just that's the, and that's, they started importing slaves first there. But that was this terrible crucible where nobody could get away. They were isolated on islands and just wiped out, like there was no one left to enslave. One of the things, you know, during COVID, I, everybody had their own different way of soothing themselves. I intensively studied the history of pandemics for the entire time. And one of the fascinating things I saw reading all of the documents of the Caribbean is that about 10 years into it, the Spanish started suffering these diseases too. They started dying out on the islands there too. And I wondered to myself, is this, was, is this the undocumented mutation of these diseases? It swept through the Caribbean people, the Taino to the point where it mutated enough to boomerang back onto the Spanish. I think in that limited context, it did. But once it hit the mainland, it's, it was like a wildfire. And the poor Maya and people of Meso America, nobody, the Europeans either, did not know what an infectious disease was. Europe was still believing were made of the four humors were made of yellow, bile, black, bile, blood and phlegm. That was, you know, they were, they were put in leeches on people. That's where they were at. The Maya were a much cleaner people, but they, they believed that all of diseases were a spiritual attack, a disfavor of the gods or an attacked by spirits. So they would bathe themselves together to try to, oh, maybe it's, you know, but they would get the disease like that. And the priests would come in and try to baptize everybody because they thought God was punishing them because they were pagans, but they'd take the same bowl, the holy water, line them up and just splash disease on everybody's face. So they were accelerating it in that way. By the time, Pizarro got to South America and no Europeans had been there yet, the king himself of the Inca had died of smallpox. And the empire was in disarray because two brothers were fighting for the kingship because their father had died of smallpox. It hit, it hit the king in the Andes, running like a wildfire ahead of the Spanish. Wow. Did the Mayans had, I mean, did they have any medicine? They did have medicines. They had good medicines, but their mentality was that it was all spirits. It's interesting how they got to the same conclusions that we do. In some ways, they have, you know, medicines were still trying to get from them because they're so effective. Things like they can, they can make kidney stones turned mud with these interesting things. Yeah, I got that stuff from some Maya guys for a friend of mine who had, who had kidney stones, but they, I had to like talk to a group of shamans and they were like, what are you here for? Who are you? Archaeologists, huh? You sure you're not a medicine? You sure you're not from the pharmacology world? You're going to sell this shit? Why do you want it? I just want it because my friend's suffering, like they were like, all right, you can have it. You little boy, go out in the woods with him and get him some and some little kid brought me out to the woods and got me this stuff. But that side side example here, they, they did have medicine, but they felt like it was all spiritual. Like I've got a spiritual attack happening. I need a spiritual solution. What kind of plant spirits can help me? And they divide them into hot plants and cold plants. And most of them, they would put in a brew. They would like to, they, they boil them and there'd be things that were hot spirits that you drink hot or cold spirits that you drink cold. Some of them, they'd be plants that you'd just ingest mostly, but they, they like to make brews, but their mentality was that sickness was a spiritual attack, not a physical like germs thing. Nobody on the planet understood what a germ was in the 1500s. Okay. But they, that was also their damning because they felt like everybody getting sick was proof positive that their gods had abandoned them. And the perfect timing of the conquistadors showing up with a bunch of priests who said, you know why you're all sick? Because you're pagans. And if you just follow God instead, you'll be okay. And they were like, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. Your gods more powerful than our God. We're sick because your God is more powerful than our God. And if we just pray to your God, we'll be okay. That really accelerated the conversion into Christianity every, every man person today is a Christian. No kidding. So that, that is what created Christianity and central South America. It certainly helped sell it. It helped sell it. That whole like Jesus got sacrifice thing too. They were like, yeah, I get that too. That's good stuff. Okay. I understand where you're coming from. And so ironically, you know, okay, I, I will become a Christian. What do I got to do? Well, I'm just going to take this bowl of water and I'm going to splash it on your face like I did the, the last 100 guys in the line accidentally giving them the disease. There was a priest in the, in the Amazon in Brazil who wrote this heart-breaking chronicle where he said, "I've done everything God's asked. I've made these utopian communities and I am baptizing people, thousands of people a day. And yet God still takes them. What am I doing wrong? Please send me a sign at no idea that probably the bowl of holy water was what was accelerating it." Yeah, that's no dispersion on Christianity. I'm just saying. What a, what a, what a terrible coincidence clash of events that accelerated not, that his goal was to stop it, but his actions were accelerating it. Very interesting. We'll say a quick break. Sounds good. I'm always skeptical of health products that look clean on the front of the label and then you turn it around and it's full of sugar, sweeteners, flavors, or artificial ingredients. I got so tired of looking for a clean way to hydrate that I eventually almost designed my own product. And then I found booey. Booey is purposefully unflavored liquid electrolytes and trace minerals. No sugar, no sweeteners, no flavors, no artificial ingredients. I just add one squeeze to water, tea, or whatever I'm already drinking and it makes that drink more hydrating. And a little goes a long way. 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Ed, we're still discovering entire human landscapes under underneath the Amazon. A new nature study estimates there could be 24 to 30,000 ancient earthworks in just one region, and potentially millions of people living there at its peak. From an archaeologist's perspective, how badly have we underestimated what the Amazon looked like before Europeans arrived? And what do you think is still hidden underneath that canopy? - Love that question. - Yep, we did not see that coming at all. I will brag and say, I saw the beginnings of that on my great courses about South America that I did before 2012. I think I did that in 2009. I said, this stuff is beginning in the Amazon and get back to me in a decade 'cause what we're gonna find is gonna freak us out. And it has. There are thousands of these geoglyphs. And we call them geoglyphs, but they're actually in closures around big communities. And different places had different ways that they handled that wetland environment. Some of them built big mounds up and causeways in between in Bolivia. There are these magnificent huge communities that have big mounds with raised causeways going out to littler mounds and littler people's houses. And they basically built raised roads over the wetlands and then figured out how to farm those wetlands and just turn it into an agricultural paradise. And it's not, it was still there when the Spanish arrived. There's a hundred years after the Spanish arrived, some priests went down there and tried to civilize them. And in those journals, one of the priests said, expressed his frustration. And he said they've built this magnificent system of causeways and all they use them for is to go from party to party. These people are always having celebrations. They're not using these for commerce or education or anything they just use them to party, which I thought was hilarious. Like these people were having a grand old time. And there's so much down there in the Amazon that yeah, I'm no longer surprised. It's just a question of time before we see just how much is there. And I'm beginning to wonder like, where are the bald patches? Where are the countryside patches? - Really, there's that much. - Yeah, wow. - Yeah, I think in the heart of the Amazon is probably where the bald patches, where the, where the Amazon, you've been down there, in an average year, the water level around like my mouse raises 100 feet and the trees all have adapted to that. And the wildlife has, they all just go up into the trees and half the year they see the water or see the ground. In those environments, probably a raised causeway was not enough. But in the, in the, it's really, at the moment, the evidence kind of rings the heart of the Amazon. And maybe that's just how deeply archeologists have been able to go from the known to the unknown, or maybe the heart of the Amazon is so deep that even their adaptations wouldn't work there. That's yet to be seen. - You see a lot of people, how many times have you been down there? - To the Amazon? - Yeah, just once. - Just once? - Yeah, I spent a week down there going from an ounce. I picked the black river instead of the Amazon to go up, but I spent on a boat going up there. And I, mostly my mission that time was to talk to modern native groups and ask them why they picked where they picked to put their village. - What do they say? - The answer was the same every time that there's this black soil here that's very agriculturally productive. They call it a terapretta. And that, in archeology, we've begun talking about that as an anthropogenic landscape. And it's the evidence that thousands, well, at least hundreds of years ago, maybe thousands of years ago, humans had churned up the land there so much to farm that it's this rich soil. The people that live there now, the natives, they don't necessarily know that that's where our ancestors were thousands of years ago. They just practically pick the places that are full of this black soil that archeology has now realized is man-made. - Interesting. - And it's huge areas. We call it an anthropogenic landscape. It's, you know, the Amazon destroys everything. Like, there's the evidence of earth and mounds and things just get churned up there so much that it's hard to detect human past habitation. So this anthropogenic landscape is a relatively new concept where we're analyzing the soils to see, did that happen naturally? Or did humans do that? - Wow. Have you ever seen anybody live enough grayed out there? - Well, those date of guys, yeah. But even those guys know what man-house is. You mean like actual native folks living off the grid or not to be native? - I was just surfing around YouTube the other day. I just actually sent this channel to, I think it's called Yes Theory. Is it? Yes Theory? I found this channel called Yes Theory. I don't know much about it because I just found it, but they found this guy who's been living off-grid up the Amazon River. I think somewhere in Brazil for like 39 years or something. - What? - It's not like crazy guy that's accused of killing tourists, is it? - No, no, I don't think so. - Well, these guys are still living. - Well, five lives out there, but you don't want to find it. - One dude, out in the middle of nowhere, just he's got a river house on the side of the Amazon somewhere and he's been out there for 39 years. - Well, my head's after that guy because he should be dead by now. - He's fascinating. - I most try to reach out and get these guys on. - My work is mostly in the rainforests of Guatemala and Mexico in those areas and those are inhospitable forests, but I gotta say, the Amazon's next level. The Amazon had like way more snakes, way more deadly plants, way more environmental changes that could kill you. About day three going up the black river, we stopped in a ruined city that had like European brick-built houses and things, but they had trees coming out of them and they were, we walked down a street and the riverboat captain said, "Yeah, this was gonna be Manaus." And this was where the rubber industry started. But then the jungle just swallowed this place and they decided to move down river to Manaus and I was like, what ended it? And he said something strange about like, they say it was ants, like ants. Jesus Christ, ants took over a city, that's what he said to me. And the ants there are huge and the army ants just swarm, that environment scared me and I like the jungle. Yeah. Well, here's a follow-up. If somebody gave you unlimited lidar tomorrow and said you can scan one unexplored region anywhere in the Americas, where are you going? Oh, wow, that's a good one. I mean, it's funny, it's a race right now. People are lidoring the crap out of things. If I went to, my gut reaction is to say the Amazon. But stand in line, Ed, there's 50 guys out there lidoring the Amazon. Where would I go that everybody doesn't think they should look? I would probably do what my friend and colleague, Luke Caverns, Luke Reagan is doing. I would scan up and down all the rivers of North America of the United States because the Mississippi and all the way out to the East Coast, there are pyramids here, but they're trapped in the woods there, they're on private properties, and you could find so much. People are doing it. I'm still, I would be behind the curve there 'cause Luke has found almost 80 pyramid sites. - 80 pyramids. - Yep, and there's another one. I've just become obsessed with somebody's Facebook page. It's LiDAR America. This guy every day is pumping out another LiDAR image of a pyramid sitting on somebody's ranch. And he shows just the aerial shot of just the woods, nothing. LiDAR, holy crap, there's three pyramids in those woods. It's just the pace of discovery. - Right here in the US. - And it's not underground. - No, LiDAR can't punch underground. - I mean, we have half a dozen major sites that are archeological parks you can visit. But LiDAR, is showing, a year ago I said, "Ah, Lidar's not finding anything new. That's not true anymore." Lidar has especially here right in North America been finding dozens and dozens of big earthen pyramids that are all, they peg on the big rivers. Mississippi and civilization starts about 900 when they really get corn from Mesoal America. Once they figure out how to grow big crops of corn, they start making huge communities along our major rivers and a lot of that area is in national parks or it's just wilderness or it's somebody's mega ranch of 3,000 acres and it's out there. But we've never seen it before this Lidar has been showing us just how much I'm so happy to see it because I knew it was there and I know how many pyramids were destroyed from like the 1700s and 1800s as we moved out into the crop land. I was worried they were all gone, but Lidar has been showing me, nope, there's still probably hundreds of them. Wow, I would love to stumble across one of those. You know, is this this uh properties like 30 acres? I would bet you my bottom dollar you have Mississippi and civilization right here on this property. That would be cool. How will we find that out? You know uh survey out and out out and these woods. You could go to Nashville. There are uh contract archaeology firms for not very much. They would survey your entire land phase one and and tell you where the archaeology is and I guarantee you there's a lot of stuff here Sean. I'm going to do that. Do it. Tell me how it goes. All right, here's the bonus because we're getting into this anyways. Graham Hancock believes there have been any excuse me. Graham Hancock believes there may have been an advanced law civilization that influenced later cultures. You know his work but you disagree with that conclusion. Where exactly do you think he gets it wrong? I think that Graham has oversimplified the situation. His you know like any person who studies something for their lifetime his ideas have evolved over the years but he still sticks with this idea that there was a single advanced civilization and that's a buzzword advanced that was epically destroyed by some kind of cataclysm about 12,000 years ago but that it provided the seeds for every other major civilization around the planet. Where I and I think the majority of my colleagues believe that civilizations began independently of one another grew up and then met where he believes they started at a single place spread out grew up met again never remembering their common origin. That's an overly simplistic thing. I can't prove it. He can't prove it wrong. Right. I can't prove it wrong. There's not enough evidence to say but it doesn't make I think I can make a better argument than him that civilizations developed independent of each other. Human civilizations are kind of you know human commonality finding things like math and science that are the same in every culture or at least the products of the mar two plus two is four whether we're here or on the moon. And do you think they interacted with each other? I think they eventually interacted with each other but I think they grew up independently. It's like for example you know Egypt and China you know they developed on their own track and they ended up making you know sedentary life crops houses you know then eventually cities. The same thing happened in Peru but there's no way there's the times and space are wrong for China to have taught Peru how to do this or you know in in Hancock's vision it's somewhere around the Mediterranean kind you know in the old days he used to try to say it was you know something akin or actually Atlantis. He no longer says that really but he's still going yeah he's he's he's no longer saying it's Atlantis but he is saying it's some sort of ancient civilization he loves and I love go backly tepe that turned everything on its head that was a perfect example where I do agree with him is that there are ancient civilizations that we know nothing about that we are still we could still discover or at least I share that optimism I mean I can't remember where I said I mean let's go back to the minds for example I should have asked this I mean what how big were their structures were they I mean did they are they comparable to Egyptian architecture well nothing compares to the pyramid in Giza in terms of height it's 150 meters tall the tallest my building is 70 meters tall so half the height but volume wise Giza's not the biggest the biggest is actually in Mexico it's the Chalula pyramid it's not as tall but its area is much much wider like the pyramid in the Giza it's pretty steep but the one in in Chalula is very wide so volumetrically it's bigger and the third one is the temple of the Sun at Teotihuacan just north of Mexico City so two of the three largest pyramids in the world are in Mexico neither one of those are Maya but like number five I think is the complex in El Mirador which is a a BC period Maya site so that's that's exciting so I mean how would they have built it do we know manual labor brick by brick one of the things they weren't like they weren't they weren't huge blocks like in some cases like Mirador the early days they made they used some bigger blocks but generally speaking most of the Maya most of the Mesoamerican pyramids are made of blocks that a single block could be carried by a person by a single person so that's different okay like okay in the case of Egypt they're massive blocks there's not a stone source anywhere near they built them so they had to bring them down a river and then they had to drag them across a desert and then they had to drag them up there the scale of Egypt you know in my opinion as an archaeologist it is unfair to compare any other civilization's architecture to Egypt Egypt blows them out of the water even you know that the second one that I would say is in second place is not the Maya or any of these things in America it's the Khmer in Cambodia the Angkor and the Khmer civilization the scale of their architecture is also mind blowing I've never even heard of this you haven't heard of Angkor what I don't think so holy moly you're in for a ride if you like archaeology that the scale of things there the the city's called Angkor I've done a lot of work over there I love the astronomy there I've got some cool stuff going and they're all such nice Buddhists there I mean everybody's so freaking kind I have to like when I bring groups of tourists there I have to tell them don't get mad because you're just gonna freak some people out these people don't work like that if your if your meal comes late please don't be angry you'll make somebody cry it'll freak them out but anyway Angkor is in the middle of Cambodia and there's a single compound there called Angkor Tom that the entire city of Tikal would fit inside and it's just it's just one section the at let's say it like 1200 AD Angkor had a population of just shy of a million people it's crazy so but but Egypt is still on a tear above them so I you know I've I can't remember if I saw this from Graham Hancock's work or is it true is it true the lot of these ancient wonders like Giza I think Stonehenge Easter Island were these all built on top of major fault lines no it's not true no that's not true I I mean I said that very flippantly I mean I could take a moment to think about that but I mean fault lines mean earthquakes because if I remember right there I don't think that the plains of Southbury are very earthquake prone okay nor is nor is Egypt really Peru's got a ton of earthquakes but I'm not sure that Easter Island is ever had an earthquake. I could be off. I could be off, you know, maybe you sure. One of the things that I've seen and I, this is like a creature, I think, they were saying, they were, Peru's got a ton of earthquakes, that's for sure. But England, not that many, one thing I did see that this is, now I'm bridging on crackpot here. But it's interesting to me how the cradles of civilization hover along the places in the world where magnetic interferences zero. You know how like when you use your compass it always points magnetic north but that's not really true north. It could be off to a certain time like the Boy Scouts are all about. They make, they post this map of the world every year where the magnetic declination is. So like up in New England you have to set your compass to like 15 degrees off to be true north. The magnetic and true north are pretty off there. But there's a, there's a sine wave that goes through the earth where it's zero. And it fluctuates a little by year by year. It doesn't go way off but it's, it's a yearly thing that it moves. But I was tracking that one time just using my compass and things back. And I noticed that in the top of Yucatan it's zero. In Egypt it's zero. Where Harapa it's zero. In Southeast Asia it's zero. The line like tags the cradles of civilization. And that's, that's totally crackpot of me to say because there's no evidence that magnetic declination means anything to the ancient people. I just, it's an interesting observation that in all the places where the cradle of civilization has, we're not suffering any magnetic disturbance. And we know we were electromagnetic people. Is there something about, you know, having no magnetic interference that does something different to the human mind? There are certainly big businesses that have fallen and risen about rubbing magnets on your body to have special healing powers. I just, you know, I probably shouldn't have even said that but it's an observation I've made that it's weird that it's zero in all the cradles of civilization. I've been using Ridge for a while and what I like about them is they take every day gear and make it cleaner, tougher and more functional. While it's power banks, luggage, travel gear, all the stuff you actually carry in use. In fact, their power banks, I just got three charges off one bank at the airport. Amazing. And now Ridge is back with their annual sweepstakes for the sixth year and this one is insane. Two winners get to choose between a Lamborghini Aracan Storato, a Hennessy Velociraptor, a custom Ford Bronco or $100,000 in cash. I'd probably take the Velociraptor. It's got 558 horsepower twin turbo and it's basically American muscle built into an altering truck. That's a hard one to pass up. Even if you don't win, Ridge is still worth checking out. 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You can just see it there. You can google right now magnetic declination of the earth and it'll show you where it's zero and where it goes off of zero up to like 25 degrees off. But how I would prove that it had any effect on the birth of civilization? Well, I can't and that's what makes it a crummy archaeological theory and something that probably shouldn't have come out of my mouth in this interview. Well, what were you saying about, we were talking about, I think we were talking about the cataclysm potentially of advanced civilizations. Did he say something? We were talking about Atlantis, I think, and you said there was something that turned it on its head. Well, I know you had Randall Carlson on a couple years ago, and I saw that one and you guys talked a lot about the younger driest theory and how the the idea is that maybe a comet hit the earth and turned everything on its head. That's the time period. Graham is very excited about this whole younger driest thing because it seems to be inlines what he's been saying for years, but didn't have the language to talk about why did everything come apart? This theory of the comet and the younger driest does help his argument. And I'd like to say too that Graham and I are friends. I worked with him on his ancient apocalypse thing and we spent three days in Plankay together, and I love that series. Thanks, that was fun. That was fun to be a part, but I really got to know him, and I've met a lot of people that are in the pseudo-archeology sphere, and some of them are charlatans, and I don't like those guys. I would imagine. Graham's not a charlatan, he's just wrong. And I've said it to him, and he said it to me, I've seen him actually publicly say, "Ed and I are friends." He doesn't believe what I have to say, and that's okay, which I think is nice. We should all be like that. Graham has brought millions of people to get excited about archaeology, and I don't think my colleagues should be spitting on him. If he's wrong, the truth is immutable. The truth always comes out. People spout bullshit every day, but you don't have to get upset about it if the truth will come out, regardless of what anybody says. So why spend time fighting about it when this guy has actually garnered the audience that we've always wanted? What do you think about Atlantis? Do you think that's a possibility? Personally, I think that it was a parable that Plato told to talk about the potential downfall of society and how things happen. I do not think there's an Atlantis out there. I'm sad to say. I wish there was. I think there may be a story that he used as the foundation to talk about Atlantis, and if in that scenario, the best candidate, if I do say, is there something even like Atlantis? I think it would be Acriteri. What's that island that everybody loves to go to in the Mediterranean outside of Greece? I'm blank on its name, but everybody goes to it. It's got the volcano in the middle. I don't know why I'm blank on it. It's the most famous with the white places, with the blue roofs. Anyway, that's an island out there in the in the Aegean that a huge volcano blew up and blew the whole island to pieces. So much so that 70 miles away increased. There are chunks of Santorini. Santorini is the island, but there's a section of a city that's still there called Acriteri. It's only a section of it because the crater blew up most of the city. But it's from like, I think, I want to say 1200 BC, and it's very advanced. It has like streets and street lamps, and all sorts of things that were very advanced, but the volcano blew up, destroyed Acriteri, put chunks of it into creeds, cliffs, from the description of a city that was out in the water, and then exploded and sunk Santorini and Acriteri. If there's anything that does match the description of Atlantis, it's that. But that's just my opinion, and when it comes to Atlantis, boy, there are a lot of opinions out there. Do you think that it's an impossibility that there is, there potentially was a super technologically advanced civilization? You're talking about the Mayan calendar that goes back 15 million years. A lot could happen in 15 million years. Well, just because we talk about 15 million years doesn't mean there was somebody back there. We talk about the dinosaurs. We're not most of us. Don't believe we were there with them. But you know, I'd like to say I'd start out with one of my mantras is we don't know what we don't know We you know we can be very sure about what we know, but we don't know what we don't know So part of me hopes that we're totally wrong But when it comes to you know super advanced type civilizations or even just a major civilization Let's not even give it you know all the bluster of some advanced technology I really feel like archaeology would see at least the evidence of it We're not great at interpreting things, but damn we're good at finding things. I mean we find fish scales I just feel it's it's very improbable That there was a civilization massive enough to have trade relations with the rest of the planet That we don't even have a brick from it anymore Now part of what Graham says, which is legit Is that back at 12,000 years ago the sea levels were different The sea has risen 300 feet that might be more at 600 feet And so a ton of archaeology must be under the ocean right now and it could have been just Buried churned up by the ocean waves. It could be miles out on out under the water So I agree with him on that point there is probably all sorts of archaeological evidence Under the ocean that our current technology isn't allowing us to see Maybe lidar had changed that I've been hearing that people are developing lidar and not to just go through the air But go through the water If we can map out with lidar the whole ocean floor and maybe we'll find some of that stuff But it could get buried very deep, you know one hurricane puts you know a whole beach onto the land What's it doing to the bottom of the ocean? So I totally agree that there's a lot of stuff under the ocean there there has to be But how do we get to it until we find it it doesn't exist. It's what we don't know I mean how do you explain Or maybe you don't but I mean you got to be stumped on it. I mean Things like stonehenge or the pyramids or the I think there's those caves in Turkey that are like entire cities that are Oh, yeah, underground or Capodosia. Where was it? I can't remember where I saw this. It was probably one of Graham's things but There's a cave. I think it's an India or something But they they were saying that the cave walls Inside are flatter than a glass top table. They brought this instrument in it's huh and I don't know about those ones uh And they're saying they're they're saying these caves are you know ancient and and that it would have been you know To light it up down there you would have been it would have fired And the people would have died because of smoke because it's just a little hole that goes into this cave and And it would have been you know hammered. Are there certain humans made it? Or they just expect they are that's another one like you know some of Graham's research or evidence Is actually geology And it's not human and it very much looks human and if you're not you know somebody who intensively studied Geology totally understandable that you'd look at something like that huge wall in Montana and say like there's no way humans didn't make that but Yeah, but what I lamely say is yeah, you know what's magical is geology Which is a total nerd-ass thing to say but it's true. I mean geology makes some amazing stuff there You know like I was one time on the salt flats of Uyuni in Bolivia And it's just as far as you can see this These flats with perfect hexagons Connected to hexagons connected to hexagons 70 miles of them and it's just like It's so perfectly geometrical be like How did nature make this? How did this not how is this not drawn and yet? It did there's there's amazing things that geology makes that looks so amazing, uh, you know to the to the layman it just feels like there's no explanation other than man, but there is So what do you work it on today? Well lately I've been trying to be a talking head on the internet, but uh But uh, you know, I'm kind of in the uh in the sunset of my career. I'm 57 now I still feel good my kids are raised. I might go out and have another adventure, but I I do so really realize that I could break a hip on a pyramid any day and I better have another income source So a lot of the things that I'm wrapping up are kind of passion projects. I got I guess really three that I'm passionate about One is the archaeo astronomy in Southeast Asia. I've found some Now the the French have mostly done all the work in in Cambodia But they haven't focused on their astronomy at all and I have found some really cool stuff there stuff that's like Indiana Jones tricks of light and shadow, you know like when the when the beam of light comes in and he knows where the Ark of the Covenant is Like that kind of stuff. Wow And Cambodia that's a lot of it. I could spend an hour telling you about that, but I'm thrilled about that stuff because I'm really I'm really doing something for the people of Cambodia and that too It's getting exciting. They're starting to like make events around the astronomy stuff. I've I've figured out Man, that sounds fascinating. I love it. I wish it wasn't so freaking far away It's like actually the other side of the planet. Let me hear one thing Most of my stuff is about a phenomena called zenith passage something that only happens in the tropics The day that the sun goes directly over our head here in the United States It will never go directly over our head that only happens in the tropics. That's why the tropics are defined as they are The zenith passages within them and it changes from latitude to latitude day to day. It's not like like we all see Uh, Summer Solstice on June 21st. It's not that way with zenith. It changes from latitude to latitude So they can be discussing this astronomical phenomena like it happened for us on August 17th When did it happen for you to the south? Oh, it didn't happen for us until September 5th. How strange So it's already very foreign to us as far as a Sun phenomena But all of those you know those B shaped uh In Hindu temples be like beehive shaped. Mm-hmm. They have a hole in the roof and and a Alter on the bottom and the roof goes the hole goes all the way through the roof And only on the day of zenith passage this really bright beam of light comes down and lights up the whole temple on the inside And that's why their temples are designed like that and they have this great uh cap Like roof Cap that has a hole going right through it that that's only about like that wide So it focuses the light Into what looks like a laser. I mean later on I when I pull my phone out I'll show you tons of photos of this phenomena But it's it's incredible and all the temples do it So I've been I've been trying to prove that that happens on purpose And I finally found one of their capitals that was set away that's actually oriented to see the Sunrise on zenith passage the whole city's Oriented to the day that the Sun will rise at that latitude at zenith and then when it comes up It shoots beams of light through all their temples And it's it's so cool and I just kind of stumbled into it. I had been studying Archaeostronomy in the Maya world for so long and we had really documented that the Maya are paying attention to zenith passage and talking to each other about it And we ran out of ways to figure it out so I was like Well, Cambodia's in the tropics too. Why don't we go over there and see what they're doing and I found more than I could possibly imagine That sounds fascinating. It was great. I love it. And I love the people there. I love the environment the jungle. It's beautiful So that's one of my things Another one is uh, I have made one third of a map of Easter Island for the people of Rappanui and I would like to continue But I did it just before COVID and then the entire island went into lockdown for three years and now the administration's different and Chile doesn't really want me doing it because I'll make a better map than they've ever made and give it to the Rappanui who Will then have control of their own patrimony and that's inconvenient to probably shouldn't be saying all this shit That's inconvenient for the government and universities of Chile I've got good friends on the island. What I want to do I went in there with my heart on my sleeve and said you guys have now finally gotten control of your patrimony But you don't know where any of your stuff is every archaeologist has just come in mapped the Moai asked you a failure instead it and left. I will map all of your villages. I will figure out where all your crops are, where all your houses are, where all your chicken coops are, and I will put back together where, hopefully, where your clan, there are 13 clans there, but they don't know where their land is anymore. And I said, as you move out, you don't want to destroy your ancestor stuff. I'll make you the first map of your actual settlement map. And I made one third of it, and then there, then the world blew apart. And I've been trying to get back ever since. I was almost there. I bought the head of Mao Hanua, a dinner when I was out there the last time. And we were agreed, something weird has happened. I think that, I think that archaeologists that don't want me there are thwarting me. But I am, I'm very stubborn. I will get there. I'm flying back there again. I'm going to buy him dinner again. And I will finish a map of Rappanui that I will give to them. That's part of the thing. They're like, they think I'm weird. You don't want me money. You don't, you're just going to give it to us. It's like, yeah, I'm just going to give it to you. And I would love to go there. I actually love to go on there. It's beautiful. It's, you know, it's so easy too. Sean, you don't, you know, you don't need a guy like me to go there. You know, you fly from Santiago, five hours out to Rappanui. But once you get there, the town of Hangaroa is lovely. It's got hotels, their foodies, the food there is wonderful. And there's only like 6,000 Rappanui people left sadly, but they are some of the nicest people I've ever met. And those heads, they have full bodies under the ground. They all have full bodies. The heads were just a misunderstanding. Those are the ones that are standing in the quarry and the erosion has buried their bodies. But every one of, there's not a single actual head on Easter Island. They're all bodies. And you know how many we've recorded now? Over a thousand. There's over a thousand on Easter Island. When you see the pictures, you're like, Oh, God, are there 50 of them? That's a lot of stuff. No, there's a thousand. Oh, man, I would love to chat with you about that. We're going to have to bring it back on. We've got a lot more to talk about. Sounds good. So I'd love to do something for the Rappanui people. I like the stuff in Southeast Asia. And I want to prove that the Inca fused their walls together with acid. I think they did. I think they melted those walls together. I don't think they carved them so neat that they fit together like perfect blocks. I think they melted them together with what? Hydrofloric acid is my guess. They definitely had a lot of acid. They had a lot of hydrochloric acid that comes out of their minds. When you mind, gold and silver, one of the byproducts is hydrochloric acid, and they have a lot of fluorite. See, it's andocytes. So no natural acid alone would would melt them. But there are places where I see like wipe marks. In Kusko, there are places where like there's something where like somebody took a rag and wiped a muddy part off of a piece of granite, which is impossible. And I see places where where crystals are scissored across the seam between two rocks, two bricks. That's impossible. So again, kind of a hairbrain theory, but that's what I got from my mentor Linda Shealey used to tell us all, we're the lunatic fringe. We come up with the weird ideas that are impossible, but those are the ones that change the way we think about things. So I'm always trying to be honoring her by being on the lunatic fringe. This definitely classifies. But there's a ton of fluorite in the Andes mountains. The income we're making jewelry out of fluorite. And if you combine hydrochloric acid and fluorite, you get HF. That's hydrochloric acid. Did you did you watch Breaking Bad? You know that scene where they're trying to dissolve the body in the in the tub and it comes through from the upstairs to the downstairs. What they're pouring on him is hydrochloric acid. And it burns right through rocks, ceramic things, but it won't burn through plastic. And it won't actually burn through certain other substances too. But if you brought fluorite and hydrochloric acid and applied them together on a site, they would melt and a site. And I think that they did weird little layers of just enough of this acid and put one rock on another and melted them together. There are lots of places in Kusko that I'm like, this rock made a muddy footprint into the one below it. That nobody carved that. How the hell did that happen? This this lower rock was soft when this big rock came on top of it. That's a fascinating theory. Lots of people think that it was acid and weird people say things like, oh, it was urine. Or there's a weird bird in the Amazon that that eats certain plants that are acidic and then goes to a cliff and spits it onto the cliff and it it melts the rock and makes it soft so they can pick a little nest into there. They think maybe it's that. There's weird stories from the from Spanish conquistadors talking about people around Lake Titicaca could make a stone soft and turn it into statues. There's a weird story about a near a mine where where some Spanish were trying to make an ink a slave drink something out of a weird jar and he was like, no, no, no, and then it spilled on the ground and the Spanish reporter and the chronicle said and the granite beneath it got all soft and muddy after it dumped out of there. I don't know whether that's just bullshit or what, but there's lots of little stories like that. I'm not I'm certainly not the first person to say it might have been acids. I might be the first person to try to suggest it's hydrofluoric acid. So I went to Cusco with this. I wrote him a letter in Spanish and said, you know, if I could just take some samples out of the walls, I can have them studied through neutron activation and I can figure out whether there's any traces of acids in there and they were like, don't touch our walls, you weird ass gringo. Yeah. So I'm waiting, I'm waiting for that guy's position to change. I'll send the next guy to letter again. See what happens. Right on. Well, Ed, I'd love to see you again and thank you for making the trip out of this was a fascinating interview. Thanks. I loved it. I hope I didn't talk too long, but I'd be happy to come back. Perfect, perfect. Well, we'll see you soon. All right. Thank you. No matter where you're watching the Sean Ryan show from, if you get anything out of this at all, anything, please like, comment, and subscribe. And most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. 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