#333 George Christie - Surviving 40 Years in the Hells Angels

So at what point did you realize you wanted to be a Navy SEAL and pursue? Probably around sophomore, junior, high school. Was it like a particular event? No, just, well, let's see, I was just always into the military. I grew up playing with GI Joe's and carbon spears and shit like that out in the woods. And then I lost sight of it. But to be honest, I was just a fucking turd, you know, in high school. I didn't really have anything going for me. No direction. And other than booze and trying to get some checks, which I was very successful with. Well, who is in high school? Everybody's lying. And my dad was, we just put it heads him one day, fucking kick my ass around. And as he, you know, and said, I'm not paying for your fucking school. I'm not doing, you know, basically like you're on your own, like, fuck you. And I was like, cool. I already joined the Navy anyways. Well, I didn't already join, but I was like, yeah, I'm already talking to a recruiter anyway. So I'm going to be a seal. And how did you respond to that? Totally, like, changed everything. It was like, you did what? Proud or concerned or nervous or both? Yeah, probably all three. And what year was this? Did I join? Yeah, you did this when you told your dad this and what I'm going to do. I guess what I'm trying to probably like put in my mind what was going on in the world at the time as a parent. Praying 9/11. So probably like 99/2000. Well, yeah, okay. Well, shit was kind of getting kind of. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know what the hell was going on. I was in high school. Sure. The George Bush election. But, yeah, that's kind of it. Yeah, you know, for me, probably in 1955, 1956, I don't know, a year, probably eight or nine. Maybe I saw my first outlaw biker. It was in San Fernando Valley. I'm standing on the corner of my dad. He's talking to this Italian restaurant. He has a restaurant as well. My dad was on a restaurant business and they're discussing the restaurant business. And I'm just, you know, just a goofy kid. And I hear this noise coming. And I look up the street and you see this guy coming. And he gets to the stop sign, stops. And he does a series of things. He pushes his glasses up on his head. And he's like messing with something to his left side over here, which I've learned later. It's a jockey shifter. You know, it's a hand shifter. And I hear this distinctive rattling. And what they are is, I've learned later, it's the bearings in the clutch basket. It's, you know, he's engaged the clutch and it's spinning. It's not engaged at spinning. And these bell bearings are making this whirling sound that's very distinct. They don't do it anymore because, you know, there's a whole different motorcycle nowadays. But so I'm just watching this guy. He's got to leave my vest cut off. And everybody's tripping on this guy. And, you know, he's not paying attention to anybody. And the light changes. He doesn't gear, pops his glasses down and he just shoots across the intersection. And I'm like, what the hell was that, you know? And I look at the Italian guy and he looks at me. And he goes, that's your America. And he spit on the ground. And I thought to myself, that's my America. And, you know, metaphorically, I jumped on the back of that bike. It was another 10 years. And I didn't get a bike until 1966, because I was a kid. Yeah. But that pushed me into the direction I wanted to go. It was just so profound and so it was just something else. Oh, shit. Yeah, you know, it's just like that one event for me probably changed my life. Yeah. You know, I've hadn't gone down the LA that day and saw that guy, you know. Who knows how long it all turned out. Yeah. Maybe I've been a cop. That would have been a change of events. But I got a hot question for you actually. Okay. There are a handful of patches on bike or vest that everyone recognizes. And a few that people whisper about because they're considered notorious. For someone who doesn't know the culture, can you break down what the main patches mean? What they represent inside the club. And generally, how a guy earns the right to wear each one. Well, the hell's angel patch, the top rocker, the center patch, which is called the deathhead. And you have your MC motorcycle club patch below that. And then you have a bottom rocker that identifies what state you're from or what area you're claiming to basically kind of control. And, you know, the big dogs run the state rockers and, you know, the smaller, you know, they're subservient to the bigger clubs. They might have, you know, to Panga Canyon or town in Des Moines or whatever. But each club is pretty much structured like the outlaws. They have a piston. Have you ever seen the outlaw patch? It's a piston double, it's a skull with two pissed cross pistons. Almost kind of looks like it could be mistaken for a pirate type patch. I mean, it's a really distinctive, very iconic, like the deathhead itself. And they were kind of like the number two in the world of outlaw bike clubs. And on the front, you've got these various patches that some of them are very esoteric. And nobody knows what they mean. Certainly over the years, things are getting out. You know, people become informants and they debrief and they tell them, "Please, well, that's what this means." And that's what that means. But the problem is with the gentleman doing that, they embellish sometimes. They have their own agenda. No way. So, you know, they want to seem informed. They want to engage in these cops because they're trying to extract themselves from a problem. So, a patch that I'm going to use is leading up to something. The filthy few is in the outlaw bike world morphed into an urban legend. And what it means is you have killed on the behest of the club, if you will. And that entitles you to where a filthy few patch. Would that be one of the highest patches? Yeah, yeah. That and there's another patch called the Dekuelo patch. This is Hell's Angel stuff. I'm speaking of, they have the Dekuelo patch, which means you're willing to fight law enforcement. For what you believe in, you know, like maybe a cop will say, you know, and it happens. I'll go take that patch off. We don't allow that patch in the town. And then, of course, the exchange starts. Well, I'm not taking it off. Oh, you're going to take it off. And then I see you know, they're fighting. If somebody did that and he physically engaged a cop in combat, hand-to-hand combat or whatever you want to call it. He would have the right to wear the Dekuelo patch. The filthy few started out with the first to arrive in the last to leave. They were like a crew of guys that their whole life was just about partying. You know, riding motorcycles, partying. They were the first guys to come, the last guys to leave. And they started calling themselves a filthy few. And they were from the Bay Area. San Francisco, all the area up in that Northern California. The Southern California guys in response to the filthy few started the organization themselves called the Raggedy Wranglers. And they were, that was the competition between the two now. I recently, where is the competition between the clubs, with the inner conflict? No shit. It's so that, you know, Hell's Angels, North, Cal, Hell's Angels, South, Cal. They fucking don't like each other. Well, not that they don't like each other. It's like, it's like a healthy rivalry. Yeah. Yeah. You want to be a real Hell's Angels, you ought to come up here with us. He's Coast West Coast seal teams. Exactly. Okay. And that's where I was heading with this. We'll fight you. But if it comes down to it, we'll also fight together. Yeah. We'll fight each other and got your back with the chips are down. I'm right there with your brother. I'm going down with you. Even though I may have kicked you a couple of weeks ago in that bar fight. So, I work as an expert witness sometimes for the defense, which is kind of something new. In the past, the prosecution always brought in, brought in their guy expert. And then, you know, he goes through, you know, for four years, I did this. And I was undercover here. And I did that. They bring me in there. And I, you know, I tell the judge, well, you're on her. I, you know, I was in the Hell's Angels for 40 years prior to that. I was an independent in the ala bike world for 10 years. And then the judge says, okay, he's an expert. And they allow you to testify. There's a big controversy in law enforcement. They say that anybody. with a filthy few patch on has killed somebody at the behest of the club and I got a big argument with the prosecutor and you know the judge finally kind of settled the thing. I explained to the jury like I just did to you that initially it was guys first to come to last the leave and it sort of morphed into this urban legend that if you weren't to fill the few patch you killed somebody. The problem with that theory and there you know what I'm sure some of the guys who weren't the filthy few patch you know have committed crimes up of you know to murder and I don't know you know I'm not speaking for everybody but my point was everybody in the hell's angels now wears a filthy few patch I mean you go somewhere and you see 20 guys in a charger with a filthy few patch on or talking in a circle and my argument was where are the bodies you know I mean these people are getting these patches because you're professing that they kill somebody well you know where's the indictments where's the bodies where's the cases so it's become an urban legend and I told the jury at the end I said you know whom I to interrupt an urban legend you know let it be what it's going to be you have as a juror you can have to determine whether he did that crime or not not whether he's wearing a particular patch or not that's what really boils down to you know of course I got accused of perjury and that you know yeah and we're going to dice you your line under oath I said we'll prove it you know I mean sir you say and they they may have flooded the club with the patch yes would they do that to unintentionally I would not do an intentionally they would do it is like a I think a side up to other clubs it makes yeah kind of like hey I'm willing to do this or I've done it yeah or have done it and that's for you to determine by how I conduct myself I'm sure and I don't mean any disrespect to anybody in the military but I'm sure you know you run across somebody else that's a seal you're going to size them up you know you want to make sure this guy can have my back is this guy did he take his training seriously and how committed is he you know I would assume most seals are committed a hundred percent but you know you would have to tell me yes or no George I mean most of them yeah there's always there's always one turd all right yeah yeah I understand completely you know it's always the guy when you you got a new guy come around the club in the beginning I was like oh this is great I'm embracing this guy and you know just so happy to see him you know 10 years down the road I'm thinking it's just a guy going to flip yeah what's he made of is it what kind of metal is he really you know how do we test this guy to find out he's going to hold up what is what is if you don't want to name names I get it but what is one of the most rarest patches that nobody knows about well you know and when they had a baster brigade was you know I get people write me all the time what is the baster brigade you know this is a small group of individuals I mean I guess you could describe it as a small cartel within the organization and really maybe only those guys know what what it what it is what it's about and what it entails to become one of them I know that you go back east you've got bad you've got a group of guys that call themselves bad company I mean you know guys back east or there's some bad asses back there you know you if you look at your history with the New York guys the Cleveland guys the Lowell guys I mean look at the history of Cleveland I mean these guys worked for Danny Green are you familiar with Danny Green now Danny Green was a Irish mobster in the seven oh yeah they made a movie about that kill the Irishman yeah the teamsters yeah he was up against the teams the teamsters and yeah the mob well the hell's angels worked for the Italians and they worked for Danny Green and they worked both sides of the fence you know because they didn't support Danny Green or they didn't support the Italians as an organization but people within the organization were higher now you know Danny Green would say I need I can't get in this area I need somebody to do something and you know somebody take the job did they create little patches sure they did and they were distinctive to that specific specific group of guys perhaps specific acts you know in the early days those patches initially were and I'm sure you're aware of this everybody would wear wings and they had to do with sexual acts and you know the red wings the black wings the broken wings whatever they may be we had an individual in the club called Terry the tramp you know we had a whole array of wings and if you ever see hell's angel 69 yes yeah Terry was in that he was the kind of stole the show he was the guy with the big gauntlets and long hair and red motorcycle created that movie created a conflict between him and sunny oh shit because he seemed to be getting a lot more attention than sunny wanted him to get if you've listened to the show for a while you know I'm a big believer in functional mushrooms and adaptogens so mud water made sense to me right away because it gives you that morning ritual without the full caffeine hit their original blend is made with cacao chai turmeric and functional mushrooms it's got about one seventh the caffeine of coffee so you get focus and energy without feeling 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where you slept last night nobody can and that's the point apps you're not even using or calling out to servers all day and all night reporting where you go what you look at and what you buy glacier security and s cuts those calls off before they connect not after before it's the same great of protection people with clearance is carried built by the guys who used to build it for them and you don't manage it open the app once hit the button close it glacier download it today on the app store and remember privacy isn't paranoia it's protection what was so what would happen if somebody was wearing patches or a color that they didn't earn what would happen i would say anything from a stern lecture to uh you know a hole in the desert you know gotcha gotcha yeah just it just depends on the circumstances but i i think maybe this is something you could relate to think a lot of it has to do with how people explain themselves or conduct themselves why they're explaining the situation you know you you start i'll use the worm interrogate word interrogation you start sounding somebody about something he's gonna drive how the end process is because if you had an intention to hurt this guy you wouldn't be talking to him you know somebody'd walk up behind him and shoot him in the head or something but if you're negotiating with somebody it's because you're trying to avoid something or you're trying to achieve something and uh if you're talking you know figure as long as you're talking you're not fighting yeah that makes sense that makes sense so you guys are looking for ownership somebody that owns their fucking shit yeah gotcha and you know is it still that way i you know i don't know you know i left the club in 2011 i got disillusioned uh i was disappointed in the direction things we're heading you know i walked into that world in you know 1966 uh immediately started running around with the question marks which were endorsed as a one percent club by the L's Angels the St. Slaves again. These are the guys I ran around with ultimately met the Hell's Angels up on Kern River and met a guy named All-Man John. You know this is in the mid 70s, early 70s. He was already old back then. You know he was an old man. But former Navy, I don't know if he was a CB or Navy. He had been on in the Pacific theater. You know I don't know specifically where. But you know like a lot of the guys. You're familiar with how the clubs started. You know they were returning vets from the European and Pacific theaters. No more to right. Yeah. Okay. Let's get into that in a minute. Okay. Let me give you an introduction here. All right. George Christie became a full-patched Hell's Angel in the Los Angeles Charter in 1976. And six months later became president of that charter before founding the Ventura Charter in 1978. Your tenure as president was was longest in clubs history spanning seven US presidential terms beginning with Gerald Ford and ending with Barack Obama survived Rico indictments, ATF stings, internal rats and murder contracts and time in prison. Since you've resigned in 2011, you've written books, starred in documentaries and consulted on other projects. You launched felony prison consultants in work with defense attorneys to analyze their cases and prepare strong legal strong legal defenses. You work with defendants to assist them in coming to terms with their situation and prepare for the complexities of court as well as as well as protocol of prison life. I forgot to mention there also a US Marine. And so I had eight years with the Department of Defense too. Oh really? Yeah. I do have that in the outline. What real quick though? Just one, what is the, I know what it is, but it may be diluted from my days of research. What is it one percent or mean? Okay. When these small groups of veterans started teaming up together. He had the pissed off bastards. He had the Galpin goose. He had the yellow jackets, the booze fighters, 13 rebels. You have these small booze fighters was one of the original clubs. They were, they were at Hollister and and I I use Hollister, whether fairly or unfairly as a starting point for the west coast, a birth of the outlaw bike. And they went to Hollister in 1948. There were hill climbs and races and I don't know what else they had going there. They went up there. In addition, the San Francisco Chronicle sent a, got wind of this new phenomenon of these bike clubs. They sent a reporter to Hollister. A reporter went there. They brought a camera guy. They were snapping shots. They were interviewing people. And they came back and wrote this what became a salacious story about how these marauding veterans wrote into the small town of Hollister. And they were raping in pillaging. You know, they took over the town. And the reporter asked the American motorcycle association. So what's what's with these rowdy bikers? And they said their actual comment was, it's only 1% that run it for us. Hold some riders. And these guys, these club guys, now I'm just, you know, a baby or a little kid, then they get this term 1% or and they embrace it. And they become the 1% that run it for the holes and riders. And they're still continuing to ruin it to this day. So that's how that started. And they didn't start wearing the badges. And I'm going to, I have a challenge going. I want to give you along with my book. And you'll, you'll look on the front of that 1% or 1% and then, you know, you see the, that's me standing in front of the clubhouse. Thank you. Yeah. And I figured you'd appreciate it. You'd understand it. And I, you know, I traced the challenge point back to the Roman legions. They go back that car back to the Roman legions. They carry anybody that did a specific bravery in a battle or fought in a really hard fought battle. They would give them a challenge coin that was also valuable. It hadn't, you know, had a monetary value. But in addition to that, it identified you secretly as being part of a legion. And if you got caught carrying it and you weren't part of the legion, you know, you can imagine back then with the consequences. Oh, yeah. So maybe things haven't changed that much. But anyways, so everybody embraced that title in the late 50s, early 60s. Nobody seems to know for sure. I initially thought they started doing it right away. And then I myself as I'm creating this historical record of all this outlaw lifestyle, I find out that it didn't really happen with the 1% or badges to the late 50s, you know, early 60s. And, you know, there used to be 1% meetings there. In the California West Coast, you had the Hells Angels in the Bay area. In Monterey, you had a club called the Losers. And in Ventura County, you had a club called the Questing Marks. And then in San Fernando Valley, you had a club called the Saint Slaves. And then the Galapagos and the boost fighters, these guys were all part of this 1% or coalition. And you know, they have meetings, but, you know, they really were reasons to get together and party. Yeah, they weren't really meetings, you know, you know, be anybody got any business now, let's drink. But they became interesting. I thought about doing this. Did you really? I did. I went at what point in your life? I was contracting for the agency. And I left the seal teams, tried to try to do some real estate stuff. I fucking hated it. I could not stand being with civilians at the time. And that, that, and I was getting at fights all the time. It was just all I did was drink and fight. And, um, and then I, so that's where I kind of started to think about it, because I just could not fit in. And, um, did you, did you hang around anybody or? No, I bought. Well, where were you from? I didn't have any money. I didn't need any money, man. So where were you at St. Louis? Oh, well, uh, St. Louis at that time, St. Louis probably would have been the perhaps Elfsteros or the outlaws or, well, I was just reading. And then, uh, and then I wound up contracting for CAA. And it turns out there was a bunch of guys that I was contracting with that all thought about the same thing. Um, kind of goes along with it. Yeah. And so in my, when I, in my readings, I, in my research, I was just, I realized it sounded like everybody was coming back from World War II. Nobody could fit in. So a media related to it. And, um, and, uh, yeah, that's, that's, so I was drawn to it. I was, I was like, oh, so this is how all these places started. Right. And then it's, and then, uh, talking to other friends that were also looking into it. Um, it kind of sounded like maybe the clubs had been diluted a lot by this point. There probably weren't very many veterans. What years does she think probably around probably about the time you were leaving? Okay. 2011. Yeah. And, um, and, uh, and then I, I had heard one of them told me that, uh, they were like, yeah, I wanted to do it because I fucking love motorcycles. And he goes, I just went to a bike shop where a bunch of them were working. And I realized they're all stealing each other's bikes. And he was like, uh, I'm, I just think it's stupid that a motorcycle enthusiast would steal nobody else's fucking bike. Yeah, you know, in fact, we had a, uh, moratorium in Ventura. We ruled as Hell's Angels Ventura. We were old Ventura with iron hand. And that was one of the things that was not allowed in that county, or really county, so much, but the town is hard to control the whole county. But in the city of Ventura, there was no bike seat, no bike seat, you know, nobody even locked their bike. In fact, if you came to our bar and locked your bike, we would ask you to unlock it because we took it as an insult. Wow. I go, man, you know, I go, are you inferring that we're a bunch of bike thieves? I go because you need to unlock it. And if you don't want to unlock it, I understand that, but you got to leave. You got to unlock it. You got to leave. And we're not going to warn you again. So make your choice. What do you want to do? And, you know, most of the people would always unlock it and go, I didn't know, you know, and whatnot. And the police knew that was a policy in town. We had one guy got caught stealing bikes. And he spent the weekend in the clubhouse. It was fun. The cops knew he was in there. We're spread all over the street. And the sergeant skyd known for since 1978 pulled up. They said, "Hey, he's out there, man." So I went out and I was like, "What's up?" And he goes, "I know you got the guy in there." He goes, "Scare the shit out of him, but don't hurt him." And he says, "We don't want to do no reports, man." And we kept him in there all weekend, made him assemble the bike he had taken the bike apart. We made him reassemble the bike. And then we made him go pick dog shit up in the backyard. We had two big rockwilers. - Nice. - Didn't like anybody until we told him to go out there, and we didn't even cage the dog. We don't want to cage him up, man. You could just go out there and deal with the dogs, and if they were just like watching his ass, but weren't spread fast, and there were no more bikes left. - Oh, bet. Well, we got a couple things that crank out here real quick. We'll get two in the weeds. So one, I have a Patreon account, it's a subscription account. And they're the reason that I get to sit here with you today. So I offer them the opportunity to ask every guest the question, this is from Brian. In hindsight, would you have prioritized keeping the DOD career that you had after military service rather than pursuing life as a hell's angel? Follow on. What obstacles did you encounter when transitioning from military service to the civilian world, and how did you address them? - So is that two part question? - Yeah. Well, I didn't like taking orders from people I didn't respect. That was a real problem for me. And I wound up, I was in a Marine Reserve Unit, and I was in it for over four years. And the O311 was a rifle unit. We had a new gun resurgent come, and he was very disrespectful. And he had, you know, old-school guy, you know. Now, I felt the unit, the company was tight, but we were reserved, we were reserved unit, you know. So people who were living their civilian life and blending the military life together, and the platoon I happened to be in, man, we were taking psychedelics, and you know, we were getting high on smoking pot, and he knew that he thought he was gonna come there and change everything. And him and I wound up getting in a beef, and we were on the rifle range, and I was kind of fucking around, I didn't think he'd do anything, but we were standing, firing, and it was four or five guys between us. He was down the range, talking shit to me, you know, like he always did, he just rode me. And so I told everybody to get off the range, and I put my rifle to my side, and I told him draw. And he ran off the range, and he went and ratted me out, got court-martialed. At the court-martial, it kind of drifted into, perhaps you'd fit in better working by yourself. And I wound up getting a, you know, I went out under a general discharge in under-on-able conditions, wound up going to work for the Department of Defense. At Point Magoo, I was a communication trouble shooter. There was a summary surveillance. This is the middle of the Cold War with the Russians in the late '70s. Took care of the RCA building. It was a summary surveillance system. They had one in Santa Cruz, it's all declassified now. They had one on Santa Cruz Island, then they had one on Island in Northern California, and they watched all the Russian subs, you know, didn't let them get too close. And that was my job. And they found out I was the leader of the Los Angeles Hills Angels. So I got called in the office. - Oh, I bet you did, and they said, they wouldn't need to ask you something. We know this rumor has been floating around. We thought it was a joke, but are you really leader of the Los Angeles Hills Angels? And I said, I am. They just looked at me and I, you know, my boss was a cool dude, you know, and they just go, Jesus Christ, Christy. And he goes, we're gonna pull your security clearance. You can't be with those guys and be with us. And he said, you gotta make a choice. I made my choice. I walked away, you know. Do I reflect back sometimes now? When I walked away from the club and everybody turned their back on me after 40 years of service, I had my feelings hurt. I was mad. And, you know, I look at you. I look around this room. I look at the things that were presented to you. You guys, military guys, you guys risk your ass every day. Now, I used to risk my ass every day too. It was for ourselves. It wasn't for our country, you know. The Hells Angels are a self-serving organization. But it was a fun loving organization. At one time, you said I thought it was. It was a living, let live world. But, you know, I look around the room here. I look at you. I think, yeah, I wonder what would have happened. But it's a hypothetical question. And, you know, you never get a concrete answer for it. You know, I, what rank would I have made? What would I have accomplished? You know, I have a great story. When did the seal start? They started in what, 65, 66? - 12, man. I'm gonna get killed for not knowing this place. - Okay, I'm gonna tell you. I think that's about winning. I'll tell you why. I had got hit in the head. I got in a fight with another Marine. And he clipped me with his rifle, you know. Went to a sick call, had my head stitched. Wouldn't tell him what happened to my hitman on the rack. Which really up my bar with all of the old school Marine sergeants, you know. And there was a guy in there that had broke his shoulder and collarbone. He was a, he was trying out for something new. And he said he was gonna be a Navy seal. And he had, he had jumped out of a plane and the parent, did you guys jump? Yeah, and he had, he had hit his shoulder when he landed. He didn't land right. And he couldn't wait to get back to where they, you know, they took him out. And, you know, I don't know the structure, how it works. You know, listen to a guy like that. And you think, wow, now another story is of, when I'm getting, I'm in the reserve unit. I get activated when I, when I challenge that gun resource, they've got me down at Camp Pendleton. And I'm walking, I can't remember. You know, I have the little camp, you've been at Camp Pendleton. You know, all the little, they got all these little satellite camps everywhere. Yeah, and I'm walking down the road and across the street is a guy was in boot camp with and he stepped on a fucking mine. And, you know, he looked like he was, you know, we're all 19, 20 years old and I don't know how old I was, but, you know, just in my early, early 20s at the most, and he looked like he was 60 years old, man. You know, the wave was walking and he was walking then, like, I walked down with my two hip replacements. But, you know, just, there was a higher power, I feel that generates all these moves and, you know, you have to assist them in the, well, in the journey. But, I don't know, I don't know if I even answered the question, but I think he did. I, I mean, who knows, man? Well, I got you a gift to, not a challenge going, but it's a, there's one to lead. Got me bears, man, the USA, legal and all 50 states. Really, yeah, 50 states. That means there's no funny business in those. But, um, yeah, I got you. I go to appreciate that, thank you. My pleasure. Could you give us a history lesson on the Hell's Angels, how they started when they came about? Well, you know, there was, they were originally the pistol of bastards, okay, and a couple of the guys started two leaders, you know, two leaders and one squad don't, doesn't work sometimes. And, uh, they split. And the part of the pistol of bastards became the Hell's Angels. And, uh, in little town, Bloomington down there by San Bernardino Riverside, there was a gentleman who in 1978, '79 claims that he started the Hell's Angels. His name was Dick White, uh, you know, there's, nobody kept any records back then. It was, it was just unwritten rules. Uh, uh, if you didn't make it, or you didn't stand. up for yourself you know usually wind up get beat up and run off and somebody would wind up with your motorcycle and your jacket and it was a pretty tough world and we started in San Bernardino in 1957 well 19 I'm going to back up in 1956 Sunny Bardser joined the Army and he was 16 and they found out he was not a legal age and they discharged him honorably he started the Oakland Hells Angels with another gentleman named Boots I don't know Boots is real name I just know him by Boots a lot of monocards in the Hells Angels you know the power base that was in Southern California made a transition Sunny Bardser was a kind of a natural leader a very chrysmerati guy and he pulled the power to the Bay Area and probably by the early 60s and then into the mid 60s he became the voice and the face of the Hells Angels and he was very adamant that it was his club him and I used to argue all the time I was kind of ten years behind him in the pecking order and his attitude was the club belong to him my attitude was we all belong to the club but that's a brief history lesson we started a tug war and we mentioned this earlier between the North and the South and it was it was a healthy rivalry but sometimes it turned unhealthy and deadly I know that Sunny initially if people look on the internet the death head was called the bumblebee death head it was very small and it was kind of at a 45-degree angle and you could see both wings and Sunny met there were two Hells Angels Charters in Southern California there was a SoCal Hells Angels that had nothing to do with the Purdue Hells Angels it was two separate clubs with the same name and Sunny basically said we're gonna either gonna join with us or you're gonna get pushed out and in the process he liked the patch better that gentleman named Vick Betenhart created it was the side view death head basically the death head you see nowadays in the patch and he took that style had him rewrite it and then sent 12 patches to San Bernardino 13 patches I don't know how many people in the club at that time down there and said this is the new patches put these on or the next time we see you guys we're gonna fight and so of course San Bernardino being San Bernardino Hells Angels shot the patches full holes put them back in the box and sent them to Oakland and then since about 1965 I was told I wasn't there I was told it was 1965 I was still in high school and the North and the South met at Bass Lake that year and they fought it out and that war went on for about you know inner conflict if you want to call it three or four years nobody was killed over that patch but there was a lot of people beat up I know that a sunny pistol whip grubby Glenn at Bass Lake that year because grubby said I'm never putting that patch on and I'm never not being a Hells Angels and this is kind of a side story back story of 25 30 years later I can't remember what the sunny gave grubby Glenn the pistol as a gifty pistol whippedy for this and a big party at the San Bernardino clubhouse so you know you got that weird rivalry I think the military people similar would relate to something like that you know citizens are like oh my God with the hell you know you guys are crazy yeah perhaps but that's just all part of the game you know yeah but I remember being at that party and Glenn opening that gift up and Glenn looked at it and suddenly said that's the pistol I pistol with you at Bass Lake in 1965 wow and it's just you know what kind of pistol and they're both felons I was some revolver I think all right on nothing special so let's talk about you then so how actually what is so when it comes to the do the clubs recruit well are they looking for people who there's two ways to build a club one way is to push out the weak links if you will the other philosophy is how do you do that you just start pushing and shoving kind of you know you know what it's like I mean I'm sure you guys if you don't think somebody's I know how we do it I'm curious how you do it well we start kicking people's ass and putting them through tests put them in a test well put them in a situation perhaps with go to a bar you know there's gonna be a problem one of these guys made of how are they gonna conduct it maybe ask them to do something that a felony favor and will they do it will they not do it how important is getting in the hell's angels or any club to that particular individual I'm sorry I thought you meant pushing out the weak from well that are already in well no that this is people coming in but I'm gonna I'm gonna address that in a second the second way to do things is you want to take over a club you just take them over bring everybody in put your patch on them and then start weeding them out oh okay the end result is the same yeah you're gonna lose 50% of the guys you're gonna lose 50% in the old school guys they don't ever want those individuals to say well I used to be a hell's angel you know even though it was a three month span they don't want you know you got guys like Doug the thug running around and moldy Marvin you know they didn't want these guys having the ability to say that like up in Canada I don't know if you know anything about Canada very serious guys up there in Canada with the hell's angels they had a complete country patch over I can't remember what your country patch I just took over all these clubs and put hell's angel patches on them and they use the second you know way to weed things out they put the patches on them and they weeded them out and you know but what they did was they probably stopped a lot of law enforcement investigations prior I mean I'm sure the investigation started once the people put that new patch on but you kind of go around the investigation and get in front of it if you will it's probably like invading if you guys are gonna do an operation you know you just go there and do it like you know they took that Venezuela president you know they just went down and got him you know brought him back whether you know right wrong or a different yeah pushing foot around you know I mean I would think a lot of these guys would fight to the death over switch and switch in teams well maybe not well I think that there's a pecking order in the outlaw bike world you've got what they called the big four at one time it was the hell's angels the outlaws the banditos and the pagans now you've got some additional clubs you got the Mongols really earned their place in that culture you know we fought them in Southern California we're still fighting we started in 1977 and it's still going on I mean a lot of lives lost you know both sides they're a real contender of the outlaw bike world you got the sons of silence you've got the pagans now making this big move I'm told all over the United States they're going into places they never went before but you would hope that someone would fight to the death you know I'm sure that you know you hear about things that these different elite military groups do you know these guys are there they I don't think they want a surrender you know I don't know if I'm answering the question yeah you are and so with the recruiting is it I mean are you I guess are you is there outreach or is it just intake well that again there's two philosophies you know you you If you start petitioning people to get in the club How on board are they, you know, it's better. I think I Think it's better to have them come to you and want to want to be in the Be in the organization be part of it They want it so bad they can taste it. I don't know. I'm sure you know that feeling man You want it so bad you can taste it and those are the hungry guys those are the guys. I always Looked at I'd never went and recruited anybody. We had a situation in Ventura when Phenomena of Street gang violence started where this these specific little street gangs were shooting at each other We brought all the street gang leaders into the Ventura clubhouse and Basically had a moratorium on the violence and when you guys aren't gonna shoot at each other in Ventura We don't want the heat man. It wasn't because we were being selfish about we don't want to danger the commute the community Of course we don't want to see anybody get hurt, but it was really self-serving, you know, we didn't want the heat We didn't want the government grants coming to town. I don't know you know how much Federal government man, you got a hell's angel charter in your town. You can apply for government grants. You can get a Attached to a federal agency created task force. There's a lot of things that can transpire and When we stopped that moratorium on the violence Some of these clubs These street gangs are not clubs or street gangs. We call ourselves a club, but I mean these guys call themselves street gangs We started having some of the members gravitate From these street gangs and we wound up probably getting one to two or three New members in the mid-90s from every street gang that we had Approach and said you're not gonna be shooting at anybody and we never petitioned them They came on their own free will a lot of people accused me of going out and You know poaching these guys in these street gangs that never happened. These were guys that saw what was going on Saw the right if it did. What's that? What if it did? Yeah, what if you did recruit them from who cares? Yeah, but you know, there's Look I left the club on good terms and then soon as sunny sunny and I were like fighting like you know unbelievably before I got In this before I made the decision to leave we'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there. Okay. Let's stay with recruiting Okay, so are you guys? I mean, I'm just curious. Do you intake anybody that wants it bad? Are you looking up specific skills? Been asked this question a lot. I'm just gonna address it. Maybe you'll stop me if it's something that You're gonna get into later, but it's usually white Young guys, it's not because we're racist There's Mexicans in the club. There's Filipinos in the club, but for years there were no blacks in the club because we Adopted the West Coast prison guidelines and that is very strict. I don't know if you guys are aware of it Maybe not in the military so much as the prison culture, but you don't the whites hang out with the whites the Mexicans hang out with the Mexicans The blacks hang out with the blacks you got three factions in the Penal system in California. You've got the Aryan Brotherhood This is the original prison case. You've got the black gorilla family and you've got the Mexican mafia and when you go to prison The first thing they ask you is and they use this term just like this. I'll say hey, what car are you in? And you say well, I'm in the black car. If you're identifying with the blacks or I'm in the White car. I'm in the Mexican car So the people that that was wouldn't that be pretty self-explanatory Go to fucking prison. Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of people. I've gone on Shows in the past and not only Podcast but television shows and where it used to be in racist, you know, and you know, it's just not true. You know the The East Coast dragons or East Bay dragons or a black club up in the Bay Area. They don't allow white guys in it You know, it's just an all black club. You know, you could say the same thing about them. It's not about race, you know It's just about the guys you were hanging out with and the culture of That prison mentality. I mean if you go to prison though and it's all based on race Why would they ask you what car you're driving? They just it's just kind of a like And let me tell you in the old days. I tried I went to prison in Texas in 2011. It's completely different ball game You know, I had gone to prison in 86 and first time so Now it's 20 look 2013 when when I get to prison in Texas and There's still doing what car you riding in, you know Nobody asked me because everybody knew who I was, but they the average inmate They said what what car are you riding in and you tell them and then they said what's your crime and You tell them now in the old days the particular things that weren't acceptable child molester What not Now they ask you what's your crime and they they go okay, what's your name and they go let's go over the phone They go over the phone and they they call home and go hey look this guy up. It's everything's on the computer Mm-hmm, and they know immediately if this guy says he's a Bank robber, but in fact, he's a child molester or he's there for You know some sort of pedophile type crime. I mean these guys Aren't accepted on the yard, you know, it's very difficult for them, but I These guys came And the club started growing, you know club got like a shot in the arm. The interesting thing is Some of the old guys didn't like the way the young guys dressed. I don't know if this happened in the military You know, they didn't like the music they listened to They didn't like the the philosophy was different than the old his you know History of interdition of the old guys. It was a whole new ballgame for a lot of these guys There are a lot of dog foods out there and they all say they have the best ingredients But when you actually look at a lot of them, it's still over processed kibble fillers and ingredients you can barely pronounce. 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Changed from its inception to what it is today. I think the breakdown Would be in the brotherhood There's this breakdown in the in the brotherhood. I think and I'm gonna use I'm just gonna pick a date out of thin air and in the early 70s late 60s If you didn't build your motorcycle from the ground up And you wrote it into some party or some camp To party with everybody ever people would know and you would not be accepted you probably get asked to leave if You know not getting a physical confrontation back then you have to understand there was no warehouses where you can mail order all your parts Hey, I want a chrome this. Hey, I want a special Clutch lever, I want everybody was making that stuff by hand and I'll you know admit that there were a few people leading the way like Dean Lonza Dick Woods These different bike builders up and down the coast and you could tell you know Graphically you could tell where somebody was from it was like an accent you look at somebody's bike And you go this guy's from San Fernando Valley This guy's from the Bay Area, you know, this guy's a San Diego guy because they they had a That particular Accent to him and it's it's been diluted now you can go in the shop and if you got $30,000 You can buy a hearty Davidson and you know you can be a biker. I had Lunch with the Davidson family once and I Was serious, but I was I was giving him a hard time kind of joking I said you know and this is a true story in the old days you go into the Harley shop and you were out a lot of biker You know, they didn't want your business they didn't even want you in there and I was telling I was actually telling Willie Davidson and his son. I can't think of his son names. He was head of marketing at the time That they should give me a bike Because they were now selling cutoff vests They were selling leather pants They were selling been down as they were selling things now that when we were dressing like that in the 60s and 70s They were condemning you know and it's just made this huge transition so that the We had a name for them and as things progress from the 70s into the 80s and by the end of the 80s We called them rubs if you ever heard that term. Mm-hmm rich urban bikers. Oh, man This is another thing that drove so rich you're my bike. This is anybody can buy a bike This is embarrassing. I want to tell you the story about what hold on. I got to cut out a quote just a brand What's your favorite bike of all time effects are oh shit right on what about you? I bought this fucking big bear Athena chopper When I was I had never ridden a motor so yeah, what did you call him the rub? Yeah, I was a rub so So I told I was I really can't be really I was really interested in this stuff And then I started contracting for the I Which I'd never made that kind of money before so I come home after the first contract and I'm like I'm ready. I'm gonna buy a fucking bike now and so I went to the cutting-edge cycles and St. St. Charles, Missouri You know who who ran it man. His name was Mark, but I can't remember his last name at this time But he had the he had so I went in there Ordered a bike got the big bear Athena chopper with a 300 rear tire and never ridden a fucking motor cycle I haven't even I've ridded dirt bike once about killed myself So it can finally comes on I go on another poem and I come back and I'm like oh, yeah It's in the box. He breaks the fucking box up wheels about I'm like Give him the money cash About 35 grand And expensive yeah, and my first bike and I'll go I Looked out of my go How do you start this fucking thing anyways and he just looked at me goes you just bought a 35,000-dollar bike and you don't know how to fucking start it I said what do you want me to return it and I don't think you do yeah, he goes all right here you go Trying to get it out of the parking lot put the kick stand down. I was like he might want to deliver this one well he did and then Got home took off right to the bar and There was a biker bar right down the road from where I lived Went in there and that's what I was I went in there. Everybody had their fucking chains and Their vests and their bandanas and other shit, and I'm like Aren't you my fucking dentist? And I'm like this is like the shittiest bar in St. Louis and it's full of fucking Dennis doctors and lawyers I'm out of here. This is like a costume party. Yeah, so I went home. What's that? Do you sell it? I kept it I moved down to Florida. I went to bike toberfest and about killed myself doing that Did you ever go down on it? What's that? Did you ever go down? Yeah, at three o'clock in the morning with a chick on the back But uh, and I didn't get arrested for whatever reason probably because it was bike toberfest, but The cops came and oh, yeah, did you get hurt? Nope. How about her? Nope? No, no helmets Really no helmets, but um have you been had you been drinking? It was three o'clock in the morning like toberfest Yeah, I don't really want to start an inquisition here. So Man, yeah, it was a wild time. And how long did you keep it after that? I probably had it for I don't know maybe maybe three years. I you know, I'll tell you if you would have gotten a bike Well, I'm going to I always push the effects are because I've had them all in the Harleys and the effects are it was probably The best handling the most reliable bike Harley Davidson perhaps ever made in my applications The effects are sport and it had you know too disc on the front disc brake on the back and there was a gentleman That worked for Harley made Jerry branch in Long Beach and he had this Porton polished heads and a carburetion and he had a whole like little kit you could Haven't them put on at the Harley shop and I became good friends with this money from Ventura Harley Davidson and So I got one of the first FX Rs and Ventura Call me and said amen you got to come down. There's this motor's unbelievable They made so many changes in the motor like I was looking at the motor over there for my friend. Yeah, and that motor Was to pray with the next motor was the evolution and it was all rubber mounted and you know, it's just it was just like a honing motorcycle and People really call bullshit, but it's the truth I swear I changed the lifters and the valves I mean the lifters and the cam the followers and and I don't even think I changed the pistons man. I had like 300,000 miles on it which is damn incredible motorcycle Just wrote it everywhere. I've got some uh, I got a cool picture a couple cool pictures I'll get to you, but the before that Built a bike. I want a bike in a dice game from the St. Slave. This is in 1978 Bill Reed night. Bill Reed was the St. Slave. I was a health angel. We were like, you know real close man I was I spent so much time with the St. Slave's the gang intelligence cops down Los Angeles Said I was a member of the St. Slave Realize I was a health angel. I spent so much time with these guys. I was always with him and we got a dice game going and He had got a bike from somebody Decided didn't want it, you know, you know, so we started this dice game and I wound up with the bike I've got this picture. It's almost like a Prelude to the next bike Harley Davidson Made now people will say uh bullshit Harley Davidson in the copy him. Yeah, Harley Davidson copy this Money was right around the corner of the Ventura Harley shop was on one street and then on the back street with the Ventura Hills and Los clubhouse and money told us he would come over there to see what we were doing. I had a guy David Ortega Like my closest brother We were either loving on each other or fighting, you know, we were that's one of them deals and I would do all the mechanical work and he would do all the fabrication and we came up with this bike and he came up with a paint he's the first and I said David I want a all black bike and he came up with this paint painted the heads the front end the The cam cover The primary cover the whole bike was black and it was just highlighted with a little bit of chrome and uh Probably three years two years later Harley came out with what they called the night train they had they had copied it But I remember that you remember the night train a bunch of guys on the sill teams bought a night train Yeah, I mean they were a date that was a bike that David Ortega and I created and every once in a while I'll put that bike up on social media and people will they'll go that's the bike that started the trend for black stuff and you know it was a combination David and I did it together but It was just incredible bike. That's a picture. I'll send you. It's a really cool picture. I will put it up. Yeah Yeah, I got I wound up getting rid of it because I couldn't I could just never find anybody to ride with But yeah, but you know what I bet you if you would have gotten I'd lost and I got to telling the story and I I got lost direction If you would have got an FXR Really good handle and bike Maybe you still be riding the day. Yeah, I'm thinking about getting another one. Well, I'm telling you FXR A lot of the They've got some new stuff out. I like the FXR which you should do you should go to the Harley shop and say look, man Uh I want a bike comparable to a FXR. I want I want this all about handling and performance and you know They come now with big motors and you know 101 inches. This is stuff Like the first time I built a big Hot rod motor in a bike Of and nobody would share nothing with you. You know, you'd have to learn trial and error trial and error And I put the bike together. I didn't shave the valve skirts and they're hitting. I've got this noise and they're just clipping each other and they're not enough to hurt anything. Perhaps over a period of time it would have been like, what the hell is that? So I take it apart, start inspecting everything. I see the scuff marks on the pistons on the skirts. Okay, I gotta shave this, I gotta cut this out. Then it's oiling and what I didn't do was, there's inside oilers on the motors back then. I should have plugged the holes and put outside oilers to the heads to get the oil up there in the heads. You know, I didn't know the trick and I finally, I said to some old man, I go, maybe I didn't plug the goddamn oil passages on the barrels and he got this big smile on his face. He was bingo. And he wouldn't tell me. He could have told me but he wouldn't. He wanted me to find out for myself. And I think that's part of the thing that's wrong with this country today. Nobody's like thinking for themselves, man. I think that's a big part of what's wrong with this country. Yeah. I got another random question for it that just popped in my head. I'm just curious, you are out by now. Do you remember a couple years ago when Harley-Davidson went woke? Yeah. What was, I mean, what is a guy like you or just the hell's angels or any biker gang in general? I mean, what happened there? Would people were throwing the, people were blowing their motorcycles up? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the whole world, I was in Spain, you know, I went to Spain. I come back from prison of my second marriage in a, you know, it's crashing and burning, you know, trying to keep it together for my son. I have a young son, he's 22 now. And it just ain't working. So I put out my second book, "Marked." And it's a fictional novel about my life. And so I get this message from this production company. You know, we want to opt in your book, you know? And so my daughter's my lawyer. So I put my daughter on them and all expenses paid. You know, I'm going to Spain. I'm living in a luxury apartment the whole nine yards. So I go over to Spain and I'm looking at the United States now from a distance and it's just like, everything just, it was just like I walked into a different country when I came back and I'll tell you the other time I had an experience like that. I'm in something, it's 2002. I'm fighting a 59 count state racketeering case. You know, anything you can think of, the alleged I had something to do with it. And the twin towers gets bond attacked. And I'm in solitary confinement. There's a rumbling around the jail that something's going on. The guard, the daytime guard's a complete asshole, you know, I said, hey, what's going on? Because you don't need to worry about what's going on. You need to worry about what's going on in here. I said, yeah, but you know, my family's out there. I go, there's a war. What are we doing, you know? And in February, that's nine, you know, 9/11 September. In February of the following year, I finally get out, you know, the case just collapses. The lawyers are just tearing it apart. It collapses, they let me out. And they offer me time served, you know, Tony Sarah, very famous lawyer and San Francisco. He says, you got to take the deal, George. He goes, you know, we fight this case. You're going to be fighting another three or four years. So I take the deal, but I walk out of that jail. And you asked me earlier about the brotherhood, you know, and I have a stage play that I wrote a two hour stage play. And in the stage play, I talk about walking out of that solitary confinement. You got sensory deprivation and the sunlight, like, you know, haven't been in a natural sun in a year or over a year. And not only had the twin towers fall, they have fell, they were attacked, but the brotherhood in the club was a fact it was like the whole world, it's like the whole world shifted. And I walked into a different world and I could feel it, you know, and it's like, you know, cancel culture. I mean, all this shit's starting to go on. And, you know, like you say, Harley goes woke. I mean, who would, you know, who would have thought ever what I thought that? No, who would have thought that, you know, I don't know, man, you know, I, I look back. I'm, you know, I'm pushing 80, man. I'm going to hit 80 here pretty quick if they were deemed themselves. I don't know, you know, I go to the Harley shop. Now I'm, you know, I still ride, I don't work on bikes anymore. I don't like it, man. I don't like bending over for more than 20 minutes, you know, they're trying. But I bought my first bike for 200 bucks, man, 250 bucks. I can't even remember what I paid for. You can't even get it oil. I mean, last time I went in to get the oil changed, I built like 400 bucks or something. You know, it's just a completely different world, you know, we'll never shift back. I don't think things shift back. I think we have to adapt. I think there has to be awareness here with, you know, people in the country. I'll give you a pretty example. My wife and I have a Jack Russell dog. Fonsies his name is 12 years old. I mean, you know what it's like having a dog, man, you know, he's everything to us. He gets diagnosed with his paw has cancer in it. So he has a toe removed, you know, we get everything done, we're out of state. We have an appointment set up for him. We have a person to pick him up, take him and, you know, the doctor changes the appointment and we get upset. You know, I said, look, we've got this whole thing shifted. We're in 3,000 miles away and we made an appointment and she goes, well, I called and left a message and I go, did you get a confirmation? And she winds up telling my wife, Beverly, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I mean, you know, fucking, you know, man up a little bit tough and up. You know, you don't like the way somebody's talking to you. I mean, you're there accommodating people. That's what you're doing and Beverly wasn't out of line. I was right there when I heard what was going on and I just, I'm like the degree of anger, you know, is like rising and I mean, how do you deal with people like that? And how do you straighten it out? Will it ever be straightened out? I don't know, you know, is that how cultures collapse? Is that how societies come to an end? You know, this is an appropriate time for me to talk about my speech, but when I left the club, but I'm going to wait because I know you probably want to talk about that. But it's, did Harley redeem themselves? I don't know, you know, there's a lot of things going on in this country that need redemption. Yeah. It's not happening. Well, let's get back to you. All right. We know that we know what caught your interest in motorcycles and clubs. How did you get in? How did it all start? You know, it's interesting. So I'm running around with the question marks and Dick Woods is the founder and leader of the question marks and got some serious guys on the question marks. Dick, the Hessian steel, one of the St. Petersburgs bikes, they bring it up to the Ventura area. So the St. Petersburgs, we're part of the, now the Hessians aren't in that one-personer coalition at this time. The St. Petersburgs say, "Hey, we're coming up to Ventura Mount, the Hessian stole one of our bikes. We're coming up to get it. You know, we want you to know." So, question marks, we all go down to the Center's Palace and recover the bike, a few people get lumped up, some hurt feelings. Dick Woods comes in there after everybody's left. He thinks the vent's still going on, we're dealing with these guys. He walks in the back door and somebody that holds the position of hanging around with the Hessian stabs Dick in the back. Dick becomes a partially paralyzed, never the same. The question marks slowly begin to unravel, start hanging out with the St. Petersburgs. To go up on the current river, doing a lot of runs, the Hessian shall show up up there. In the group of Hessians shall show up, there's a gentleman named Old Man John. He's an old man, like I'm mid-20s early, probably mid-20s by now, 24 maybe. I mean, he looks like an antique to me, you know, I think. He looks pretty good now that I think back, but at that time, I'm thinking, man, this guy's old, you know, and he's riding his bike. And he knows it's seen that you're living in this very small community of outlaw bikers. And the Satan Slaves had been talking about me, and Old Man John got word. And the Satan Slaves had a different posture from recruitment than the Hell's Angels. We talked about this a little bit earlier. The Satan Slaves, you had to ask to join. I didn't know I didn't know any of the rules. I'm just some kid hanging out with these guys. I want to be like them. Old Man John sees me, he takes an interest in me. The Hell's Angels have a different posture in Los Angeles, they would say, you have any interest in the club, and that's what Old Man John said to me, so do you have any interest in the club? And I just, you know, I have interest in the whole lifestyle, John, and he gives me a card. It's just come to the clubhouse and visit me. And that's basically how it all started for me with the Hell's Angels. Started hanging out with them. You know, the interesting thing is everybody wants to know about what happens when you're a prospect. You know, what do you do when you're a prospect? You basically do whatever they ask you to do, you know, and it's a job. It's a lot of meaningless jobs, you know, just get me a hamburger, you know, make sure the beer is cold, things of that nature. The real learning experience, and what really defines your tenure in the Hell's Angels, what you do after you make, remember, you know, a lot of people would just as soon go sit on the couch and not do anything. But if you want to make a name for yourself, you got to engage, you got to get involved. And one of the first things I had to do, I mentioned the war with the Mongols earlier. I walked into a room and there was four or five guys in there. We were having a beef with the Mongols and they were talking about blowing up their clubhouse bike shop. I immediately heard it was happening and I told the guys I go, "Look, now, I don't know if you've ever thought about collateral damage." I go, "You want to put a bomb in a public business?" I go, "I don't think that's a very good idea." I go, "I don't want nothing to do with it. I'm out of here." It was a Hell's Angel at the time. So they went ahead and put the bomb in there. The Hell's Angels put the bomb in there. In the Mongols' bike shop, it's called a frame up. But it was kind of a clubhouse bike shop, please. And this is why you were a prospect? No, I'm a member. I remember. 1977 and put the bomb there. I don't know what the trigger mechanism is or whatever. It didn't go off. So John comes to me and goes, "So you walked in with those guys and you walked out?" And I go, "Yeah." He goes, "Well, you know, they don't think you're committed." And he goes, "So I'll tell you what I want you to do. I want you to go get the bomb." And I want you to retrieve it. And then we had a place downtown that we called the Armory. It wasn't a real armory. It was a storage place, a garage. And in a storage place, we had 2,000 pounds of dynamite. We had a British anti-tank weapon that stood out on a big -- you know, I don't know what size shall it was, but it was on a big, dry pot. It was big as a car. And the shinguns in there, handguns, had a lave to make silencers. John sent me to retrieve the bomb. Myself and the other guy, Jesse, we went and got it. Once I just bring it back, drop it off, I'll have the guys that made it dismantle it. You know, because I kind of said, "Look, I'm getting involved." I don't know what the hell is going on here. Do you hope he to go get some unexploded ordinance? Yeah. There's somebody that didn't want to get into the building with all of our fucking weapons and ammo. Yeah. And I just -- Just to go wrong. I go, "Whatever, man." This is the thing, you know, you started getting deeper and deeper now. What happened was, John got fed up. We were fighting with Oakland at the time. John got fed up. Step down. A new guy took over the club. It was a guy, Ray Glor, and Ray had somebody come in that knew how to make a bomb. And what they did is they took a tire. They stuffed it full of dynamite around the tire and they took the valve and they used it as a pressure release trigger. As you pull it out and the stem comes up and then the contact's hit and then, you know, it goes. They take it in and the bomb goes off. They're going to change the tire. And the mongo gets killed, his 50-year-old cousin gets killed, and now the war is just, you know, it's full on war, man, with these mongrels. And so I guess the point I'm trying to make is, you know, people think, "Well, you're a prospect and then you get in the club and it's drinking and partying." And that's the way it was supposed to be. But the dynamics of the problem with the mongrels, it changes the whole structure in Southern California. And it's not something I'm proud of. I mean, I was there when the whole thing was, it turned an abrupt, you know, reverse or whatever you want to call it, wherever it went. It was now, you know, it was basically an urban warfare, jingles, and you've got a guy, jingles and Redbeard, they get shot off their bike. Holy shit. They get killed by Guy Castielano, Guy is the president of the Senate. Guy's dead now. You know, a lot of people make claims, "Oh, you know, you're telling this and you're telling that, "Hey, everybody's dead, but me." There's a couple of guys left him, and Guy's gone, who's going to jail? Nobody. So I tell these stories, but what was the beef over? The beef started, Chester Green was a Hell's Angel from the Bay Area. There was another guy, Whispering Bill Pfeiffer, he was a Hell's Angel from the Bay Area. These two guys rode in. I can't remember if they came from Georgia or Texas, and they wanted to become Hell's Angels. So they ride into California up in the Bay Area, and they're petitioning people, "Hey, we want to come around, we're cool guys," and whatnot. Well, we had a little thing we used to do back then, we call the acid test, and you give people LSD, and sometimes you gave them too much, sometimes by design, sometimes by accident. One of the guys flipped out, they were trying to restrain him, and he died. He's a come to whatever, they hog-tied him or whatever, trying to keep him restrained. So somebody in the upper echelon, I can only speculate who they make a call, and they say, "This guy died, we got to witness his partner still here, and he's alive." So somebody says, "He's got to go, man," and they decide to kill that guy. So they killed both of these guys. They take him up to a well, abandoned well in Northern California. Former member named George Weatherin, they dump him in the well, and Whisper Bill is dying to cancer, and somehow he gets tied into this and picks up a beef. He becomes an informant, tells them there's bodies buried up at this ranch on George Weatherin's ranch, and Whisper and Bill, George Weatherin and Chester Green all become informants, and are testifying against the other people that were involved in that crime. Chester Green refuses to go into witness protection program. Whisper and Bill goes into witness protection, George Weatherin goes into witness protection program. Chester Green decides he's going to hide in plain sight. He goes to Southern California and joins the Mongols. So, if you read what law enforcement says, they always say the fight started over the California bottom rocker. It's not really what the fight started over. The fight started over Chester Green becoming a Mongol in him being an informant. And Chester Green, apparently, convinced the Mongols he was not an informant. I don't know how, or how, or why, or why they didn't check up with us. Plus, he was now a mongol. Would they, I mean, would that have been, I would imagine that would not be a welcoming call. Hey, we got your guy here that wants to join the Mongols, but we would just want to check and make sure he's not enough war pants. Yeah, you know, you'd think they'd do you some follow-up, but you know, and perhaps they knew what the consequence was that these guys would have said, "Oh yeah, hold him in the back room. We'll be down here in six hours." So that actually would have been a friendly call between clubs? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, shit. I mean, but it didn't work out that way. It guess hated each other or you didn't do each other at that time. Oh, okay. They were, they were this, they're on a little motorcycle club, you know, at that particular time, you know, the Mongols were a new obscure club. And at that particular time, the Hells Angels were, they were royalty, man. You know, it was our world, you know, we were the number one club and I know other clubs. We go out, we were just as good and perhaps they weren't just as good, but in California, we were ruled California. It was our state wherever we went. So we all decided to go to a swap meet. They got to pay attention as the convoy to the store, so we all decided to go to a swap meet. Swap meets are new. It's 1977. They got this new deal. They do where people bring motorcycle parts and they put them on the floor and people walk around and they, you know, they bid on stuff. I'll give you 200 for that or whatever. They sell alcohol in there. They have loud music. It was probably not a good combination in that particular environment. So we're in there. There's nine Hells Angels in there and there's probably 40 to 60 Mongols in there. Now there's two people in there that are, their worlds are about to collide. One of them is a Hells Angel, one of them is a Mongol. You've got a Hells Angel that's wife ran off with the Mongol and they walk in there and they see each other and the Hells Angel and him and I are best friends still to this day. He's an ex Hells Angel now. He doesn't say word to anybody. He just pulls back and clocks this guy and the fights on. Now how do I know specifically how many people are there? Because in the group of nine Hells Angels, there's a police informant in the group. If you read Chain of Evidence, it's a book written by the police officer that was his handling him. The cops have a crisis of conscience. Do they jump in and stop this conflict or do they don't want to blow his undercover work and let him continue fighting? They decide to let him continue fighting. We have specific numbers. You get that book, it's in that book. You've got nine Hells Angels fighting all these Mongols and one cop comes in there and he's got a revolver. He's got a revolver, man. In 1977, he doesn't look like he's ten years very much. He's just very young looking and I remember the gun looking, I had two thoughts. The gun looked that big, but I also looked at the cylinder and I go, he's only got six shots. There's like 60 of us in here fighting, but Balzi guy, he stopped the fight. The Mongols broke and they ran, they didn't break because they were afraid, they just, they broke first. I think probably part of the reason was we were surrounded by the Mongols. We couldn't go anywhere. We were fighting them. We were all back to back fighting these guys and they broke and we broke and we had a short moratorium on the violence we said, let's not let this escalate. Old man John went and negotiated with him later that night, which I thought was a bad idea. I was kind of coming up in the club, I remember telling John, I go, look, negotiating man, I go, let's let him brew on it for two or three days. Let them consider what's going to be the consequence for fighting with the hell's angels. Then I said, then we can go negotiate and you know, John was just a old school up front kind of guy and you know, he said, going to goddamn clubhouse, you know, you're a new guy. You know, this is my call and I said, okay, whatever man. So sat in the clubhouse all night, he came back in the morning when the sun was coming up, said, okay, you know, everything's cool, we're not going to fight. Once in, I've had enough, you know, he stepped down as president. New guy Ray Glor takes over the shooting with the guy cast a lot of takes place, kill Red Bird and Jing, Red Bear and Jingles. The bombing takes place shortly after that on raise orders and probably within, you know, six months, there's six murders in Southern California. One of them is Los Angeles, Hell's Angels, New Leader. He had sent people over to the garage. He had got busted and then he said he wanted to empty the garage. But what he did is he sent people over to the garage and the police were waiting there. That's where the dynamite and everything was. And later that night somebody went back, shot Ray, killed him, but the interesting thing was, so you've got 2,000 pounds of dynamite. I don't know if the anti tank gun was still there at that time, but you've got machine guns. You've got silencers and they got out of the, they got, they beat the case basically and how do you think, how do you think they beat the case? It seems very convoluted, but then when you, one of these young lawyers comes up with the idea and he tells the prosecutor, he's not going to win this case and the prosecutor goes, why not? You guys are dead to right. He goes, well, let me ask you this, he goes, was there any dynamite in the garage when they got there and he goes, no, he goes, is there any guns in there? They said, no, they had emptied the garage for community and public safety. They'd taken all the dynamite, so there was, there was nothing in there. So in essence, they went to an empty garage and this young hot shot lawyer, he tells them, how are you going to prove what their state of mind was? Did they think it was empty or did they think it was full? You don't know. And he goes, I'm not putting them on the stand. You're never going to know. And he goes, you can't win this case and basically what they did is, they dropped the charges on two of the guys and one guy played guilty to possession of a machine gun without a license. And he got like probation, you know, time served in probation. He just did a few days in jail. So people think, oh, you get voted in the club and it's, it's all over with. Well, perhaps it's just beginning. Yeah. Yeah. Can we take a little break? Yeah, let's take a break. Look, I am really picky when it comes to gear. If I'm going to use something every single day, it has to actually perform and do what it says it's going to do. It can't just look good in a product photo. It has to be light, durable, comfortable, and it has to do what it's supposed to do. And that's why I like Roca. Roca was born in Austin, Texas and American designed with zero shortcuts. 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That's roca.com code srs. Looking for another way to support the Sean Ryan show head to Sean Ryan show dot com and check out the latest drops from vigilance elite. We just released new gear including this beautiful moisture wicking VE performance hat and srs campfire mugs and you guessed it vigilance elite gummy bears. Oh shit. Every purchase This directly supports the show and helps us continue bringing you independent conversations without compromise. Visit SeanRionShow.com and grab yours today. Well, what you were just talking about was pretty interesting. You were talking about the 70s for the Hells Angels was a rough time. Yeah, the 70s approached the body count started mounting up. And when I say body count, talking about what the police described as in-house murders or killings, the rumor was somebody had stole something from Sonny that broke in his house and stole something. I don't know if it's true or not, ultimately he paid for that with his life and there was a gentleman named Stork that one of the early informants, you know, prior to that time nobody had ever flipped on the Hells Angels. He had a pretty solid record and then Stork was going to testify for the prosecution in a case he wound up shot, probably called side of the road, unsolved murder, then you had Terry the Trump who was in Hells Angels 69, Sonny took exception to his popularity and underneath everything, Sonny and him were in business together and there was some money owed and they were waiting for a big amount of money to come in. What was the money for? LSD. LSD? Yeah. What are the primary sources of revenue for the Hells Angels? I think, you know, this is interesting, like I've always contended and I still do even though I'm not a member, I don't have to defend the Hells Angels. I like to tell it like it is, the Hells Angels is not a criminal organization, John, it's an organization with criminals in it and people see opportunities and they seize them if you will and I think that there was a lot of stuff going on, there was a gentleman named Ozzley, I don't know if you've ever heard of him, he was kind of the premier LSD maker in the Bay area and then for the West Coast he made, I knew him, I made drugs for the Grateful Dead and that just kind of, you know, tentacled out from there, there was a lot of money in it. You know, there's allegations of, you know, CIA stuff and whatnot that it always seems like MKUltra type stuff and it always seems that was there any validity to that? I don't know, MKUltra is a real thing. Yeah, I don't know, you know, you had Timothy Leary floating around in there, do you remember Timothy Leary, the LSD guru tuning in, turn on and drop out, you know, you had these things and, you know, we're coming out of the 60s of Kennedy's assassinated and the Kennedy Brothers assassinated, Martin Luther King, I mean, you have all these things happening that really create an era of paranoia, if you will, it's kind of like today. Absolutely, you know, and look, how do I say this? Well, I guess I just say it is how I say it. You've seen things that probably the average person, they're suspect when you tell them, I don't think it's quite that way anymore. It's like I've seen things, I used to tell people for years that, well, you don't know what the government really does and, you know, people kind of, you know, things I said in the early '80s, they were ahead of your time. Well, they made me ahead of my time because they made a believer out of me, you know, when investigations take place, we got off track, but I'll swing back or I went, when investigations take place and these guys start going out of the guidelines of investigative things that are acceptable or legal or however you want to describe them, you, you have, like having an awakening, you're going, wow, they're really doing this and you learn real fast. I had a conversation with a guy one time, they said that I ordered a murder and I had 19 conversations with a guy, well, the tape recorder only worked on two of the conversations. I mean, it's very suspect, you know, the listening device or recorder, whatever they were using, didn't work the other, you know, 17 times. I think that, getting back on that, that subject, sunny, had some real hard feelings for Terry the Tramp. Terry the Tramp was in that movie. You said you remembered the movie, you remembered the character. The club was going through a transition. We had decided that you could not shoot drugs anymore, interveniously, we were trying to kind of clean up some things. If you ever been around any junkies, you know what they're like, I mean, they'll do anything to get that fix. Terry kind of got pushed out of the club. That was the main reason, but shortly after Terry was out of the club, he got given a hot shot, you know, you know what a hot shot is. I don't know if you're, I don't know what a hot shot is. You do or don't. I do not. The hot shot is a mixture of narcotics that will make you unable to breathe. I mean, you OD, your body ODs and you shoot it intervenously and you succumb to the narcotics. I was told by a high ranking guy in the Hell's Angels. I write about it in my book while writing to the storm that he was ordered to go over there and give Terry a hot shot and he did and that's another murder. Then you've got Gary Robles of another strong-minded Hell's Angel. He winds up dead. You've got Harry the Horse out of San Francisco. He winds up dead and you've got this trail of people through the 70s that are casualties of a political agenda going on and I'm not sure why. It just basically happens. The whole thing seems to end in 1980 with the murder of my vice president Craig Kuhn. Jesse. That's what we're doing by his, you know, all these murders are unsolved. So when people talk about tough times, the 70s were a real tough time. You've got probably Rolling Stone did an article about it, you know, a decade of murders that remain unsolved by the, you know, in house cleaning is how law enforcement describes it. You know, was it house cleaning? I think some of it probably was. I mean, some of what we don't know is some of what I think was personal. I mean, how high, how was this? I mean, you're the head of the Ventura chapter. Correct. So where do these hits come from? I mean, your VP gets killed murder assassinated. Well, here you've got a situation and I'm speculating here you got a situation that just, you got a group of guys that come out of Los Angeles, you've got murders down there through bombings, through, you know, pistol assassination or however you want to describe it. And they move up to Ventura, my speculation is somebody got suspicious. Jesse picked up another, Jesse's the guy that got the, remember, I described the machine gun case. He, he got a beef, he was on probation for possessing machine gun without a license. He picked up a, are you familiar with the term mayhem? No. Mayhem is, if you and I get in a physical altercation, that's, you know, that's like an assault and battery. If you were to bite my ear and take part of my ear off. Then it becomes mayhem and that's a much more serious degree of felony You know a company club on an assault. Yeah, so Jesse got in a fight with a bouncer Jesse was kind of an unassuming guy, but he was one of the toughest guys I'd run into in a long time He goes to this bar by himself the bouncer The guy's hell's angel stuff on the bouncer starts insulting them. They went to be getting in a fight The bouncer's kind of a big guy bigger and Jesse Jesse beats him up and fights the tip of a zero off Just for a good measure. It's a mayhem beef somebody Become suspect that you know, what if Jesse wants to make a deal? So obviously Jesse was involved in something in Los Angeles that has made somebody nervous and Basically, it's you know, they're gonna eliminate the weak link whether Jesse was a weak link or not No one will ever know. He's gone. I don't believe he was a weak link, but somebody did and you know people think that all these things are structured like I'm gonna make it. Yeah, and it sometimes people take things you know upon themselves I don't know you've probably been in combat situations Well hold on so it's not structured like that. So what is there is there is there a structure, but if if look murders a serious offense with no statual limitations and you Don't want to get involved in a conspiracy like you know people will come up and talk to me about let's do this or let's do that of My first thought was Is this guy on the level or is this guy recording me and trying to set me up? I I got arrested in 1986 Because the Mexican Mafia said they were gonna kill a former associate of ours and I got in this dialogue With this Mexican Mafia member who actually Had become a FBI informant. So he's got me acknowledging that they're gonna kill this guy and I wind up getting a beef. I beat the case because The jury said well, you know, Christy had no interest in killing this guy You guys had an interest in killing him, but it was a hoax and I don't know if that makes any sense It does What I'm asking I want to know How is the how is the organization How is the organization broken down? What is its hierarchy? So is is the Ventura chapter each charter seniority over a over the Each charter a go chapter each charter is autonomous to itself. That's why the federal government has never been successful Trying to throw a racketeering charge. Are you familiar with the rico? A little bit. Yeah Rico is a specific crime where you can take people's underlings And take the crimes they've committed and say they were directed by the hierarchy so it becomes racketeering influence corrupt organization rico and So if they get two or three guys and you get Say a group of 10 guys that they say or part of the established hierarchy in the health angels and you get These guys saying yeah, I killed this guy and I did this here and I sold drugs there and I did it all to be hast Of this guy this guy and this guy came down from the top the order came from them that came down from the top I completed the criminal act they They become the informants in the Hierarchy the guys in the structure get popped we didn't structure the health angels like that each charter Is autonomous to itself um, I don't know if that makes sense here does make sense But what I want to know done is who approves Who approves a new charter? So when you started the charter and taura. Yeah, who approves that? I'm I'm laughing because I just grabbed the guys and moved up there and started it because My philosophy was if you're a real hell's angel You don't take orders from anybody you do what you want to do And that kind of goes back to When I got trouble in the military, you know, I take it about myself to do something but Getting back to your question. That's the way I did it. Was it appropriate? No, but it was effective because I got my charter and it lasted You know, it's still going today. I'm no longer involved but It's a vote, you know if Like when we got ready to vote the Dirty dozen have you ever heard of that club? Dirty you have I think so yeah, the dirty dozen was a club in Arizona a very strong club. They ran the whole state and in the mid to late 90s we voted them in As hell's angels and the vote Was across the United States every charter of the United States Had to vote on it and they got a unanimous vote and they They became a hell's angel charter but It's kind of complex because we're independent yet we're structured As an organization, but we don't take like somebody from another charter. It can't come and say I'm the international leader and this is what you guys are going to do Somebody comes of insurance as this is what uh, I want you guys to do say well. Hey, this is Ventura. This is our Community don't come town and tell us what you think we should do within our community We know what's best for us as an organization, you know get out of here but It makes for a good argument in in a courtroom You know, we get in the courtroom Let's go back or head or wherever we're at to 1979 78 The uh, hell's angels in the San Francisco area getting dieted For racketeering are you familiar with this case? No, no, okay, so 1979 They getting dieted for racketeering they have one trial And it's a mistrial They have another trial And it's a mistrial so you got two big trials that is very expensive uh they're not successful and you're gonna Identify with this you know who the prosecutor was in that case you don't because you don't know about the case but Robert Mueller Was the young prosecutor in San Francisco and he prosecuted the hell's angels not once but twice and uh Judge Conte was really Down on the hell's angels he thought that you know, we should have all been found guilty Uh Robert Mueller realized that the way the hell's angel was structured and the way we were presenting things to the jury That they were never gonna get a recoil charge. I mean the case was a catastrophe they bring in one of the uh paid witnesses And this guy became a government informant to extract himself out of his own problem plus to receive some financial uh money uh first testimony And he comes into the courtroom and the defense attorneys start questioning him and they said You did business with this guy right and uh, they said yes, we did Uh How many times you know he goes to the testimony and they said we'd like Uh is in the courtroom today he says yes he is we'd like you To point him out the paid informant identifies Tony Sarah now Tony Sarah is not a hell's angel. Tony Sarah is one of our defense attorneys But when he doesn't know about Tony's Tony Sarah is a guy with a really long hair Uh Looks kind of like a he could be a hippie or a biker And he identifies Tony Sarah as the guy he's been doing business with For the last three or four uh days the courtroom erupts and everybody goes crazy And then the guy admits uh, I've never done business with the hell's angels The government offered me money and they said they I could get out of jail if I testified So he had situations like that happening uh, these these guys They become so zealot in their quest To find the hell's angels guilty or anybody for that matter That they They become blinded You know, just as does not get served and uh You know, I just And maybe it's unfair for me. I keep thinking you know, I think about you as a seal. I think about you Uh, what I know about your past You understand these things that things like this happen, you know it's It's not uh What it what is uh what's his name saying that movie? It's not what you do. which what you can prove, you know, we didn't have these problems in the seal teams. You did not people kill in each other? Yeah. No. Not what you guys never, but not often. Yeah. There's been some incidents. But I mean, is the leader is the president of the Ventura, I mean, how many people are under you? One time. How many people are in that chapter? I mean, it's at 25, 25 members at its peak, but which you have to understand, you know, you've got 25 members, like a lot of people go 25 members. That's not very big. Well, it's pretty big for a Hell's Angel Charter. And which you have to understand, each guy that is in the club, probably has five to 10 people that follow him and will do anything for him because he, he holds that position in the prestige and that where a lot of people go, well, that's not prestige. Well, in the outlaw bike world, you know, being a Hell's Angel is a very prestige, just position. Gotcha. And so I'm just curious is the president of that club and you have all this, this inner, I don't know what to call it, I guess it's not in our club, but Hell's Angel on Hell's Angel killing. Right. I mean, what is going through your head, which what are you telling your guys? I would imagine that would be a mask confusion that, yeah, it's paranoid. It's friendly. It's friendly. It's killing friendly. Yeah. And what you do have no fucking friends, no, and it becomes, and that's, this is, I think how the outlaw bike culture made a 180 degree turn, you know, of it, you're sitting in a room with somebody, and do you know who Jay Dobbins is? No. Jay Dobbins, if Jay Dobbins was here, like, you know, I like Jay, he's an ATF, he infiltrated the Hell's Angels. Okay. I know who this guy is. Yeah. Now, Jay Dobbins was sitting here. He would say, everything I've said, he would say is bullshit, but that doesn't mean I don't like Jay. He just have a different perception of the Hell's Angels. I think that guys like Jay Dobbins were amazingly effective because, and I don't know if the government realized it at the time, they didn't get a lot of convictions, they didn't get long sentences, but what they did to the Hell's Angels and to people in the outlaw bike world and that culture that are in their 1% or type clubs, they put doubt and confusion into the room, because you're sitting in that meeting room and you're looking around, you're going, and I think I said this earlier, you're going to go, who's going to roll next, who's going to make a deal, who here is actually working with the cops and who is actually working for the Hell's Angels. You know, it becomes confusing. I, do you know who Anthony Tate is, Tony Tate, Tony Tate was a Hell's Angel in Alaska, and he became an FBI informant. For no reason, he didn't, he didn't get busted. He just decided, he wanted to infiltrate the Hell's Angels and he went to the cops and goes, I think I can do this and I think the cops kind of laughed at him at first and then he started, you know, making some progress and the FBI, this was with the local cops in Alaska and then the FBI came in and they basically promoted him as a Hell's Angel, helped him rise up in the ranks. He became a West Coast Secretary, no, not West Coast Secretary, West Coast Chairman. Well, him and I sat in a meeting, what's the West Coast Chairman? I'm not West Coast Chairman, he became the Sergeant in Arms, I was the West Coast Chairman, I was the guy that kind of officiated the meetings, kept all of the West Coast. Yeah. So then there is some type of a hierarchy. Well, it's an, it's, it is, but it's an unofficial, in an unofficial capacity. Okay. You know, it's not like it doesn't give me any power to, okay, you're going to do it. You do this. You're an organizer. Yes. You know, I'm facilitating the meeting, I'm keeping the meeting on point and trying to keep any discussion of anything illegal out of the room because despite what people think, if you start talking about illegal activities in an unofficial Hell's Angel meeting, you're going to be asked to stop or escort it out of the room. So Tony Tate said next to me, anybody that wants to look this stuff up, they can look up Anthony, Tony Tate. He was an FBI informant, he was a Hell's Angel, pretty effective as a informant. He's sitting next to me in a meeting on his left arm, he's got a cast and I look at the cast and it's brand spanking new, it's white, white, you know what a brand new cast looks like. Well imagine you're an outlaw biker and you've got a cast on your arm and it's just pristine white. I mean, it made me very suspicious. I never liked Tony to begin with but it made me very suspicious looking at the cast. Well, inside the cast was a bug and he was trying to lead me into a conversation. He wanted to blow up the outlaws in Kentucky and he basically brought his request to a meeting. You know, it was like probably 12 Hell's Angel presidents from the West Coast into this meeting. And if we would have gotten gauged in a conversation and killing these guys, it would have been a conspiracy beef. You know, I had enough insight in a tune of feeling that the guy was no good, that I steered the conversation off, confronted him about his cast, why he didn't have any road rash. He left the meeting, went to Sonny's house, they had got suspicious going, this cast isn't going to work. They knocked his cast off and they put the bug inside a new device that was just kind of coming up on the scene and you're going to laugh when I say it's called a pager and so this gives you a time frame. So Tony goes to Sonny's house and he's got this pager on and he's got a bug in it. And the ironic thing is he's at Sonny's house and he gets a page and it's his handler. And this isn't stuff I'm just making up this stuff, you can research this stuff, it's all out there on the computers. It all became part of a case in Kentucky, a conspiracy case, murder a case in Kentucky. He's asked Sonny, he goes, "Oh, I'm not called for work, I got a, let me call in real quick." And Sonny says, "Yeah, go ahead, this is stuff's all recorded." He calls the feds and they say, "You've got to get him to say this." And he hangs up the phone, takes a conversation and guides it into this, "I'm going to blow these guys up. I want to make sure it's okay with you. There's going to be a lot of collateral damage of saying things of that nature. Very cavalier of comments." And you know, Sonny winds up getting a conspiracy to commit murder beef. The trial was in Kentucky. He did just about four years for that. And I think while Sonny was away in prison, he was in federal prison, the club went through a lot of changes. And when he got back in the mid-90s, I don't think he liked the direction the club was headed. And you know, I kind of skipped here and I skipped there and passed it in, but you have to understand Sonny got that cancer call. He relinquished his power. After he had done that a couple years later, he had this revelation that he wasn't going to die and he wanted to take his power back. I don't know if you experience that in any of the SEAL teams, but if somebody's a leader and then they relinquish their power, it's kind of tough to get it back. I know you guys are structured more where somebody has a rank. And that rank is probably a description of what they can and can't do, what they can and shouldn't do. But you know, in the hell's angels, it's kind of a doggy dog world, it's the strong survive. And I think that by the time Sonny came back from his last stay in prison, I was the last time he went to prison for any length of time, his power was very diminished. Interesting. Do you think they would have more respect for him? Well, I think he was respected, but you have to understand Sonny was taking the position that Tony Tape was the hell's angel of the future. And that's how he was introducing him to people. He was referring to him as the hell's angel of the future. And he really was. somebody that created chaos, and not good. - How so, how would he do that? - Well, he set up sunny with the prison. I was so feral. - He's the one that did it. - Oh shit. - And he was, he was introducing him as the hell's angel of the future. - Wow. - It was a misjudgment. So, you know, what happens is people look at him as a leader and go, yeah, I see. - Maybe he's slipping a little bit. I'm sure you've been in situations where you've got somebody in a leadership position, maybe making a questionable call, you guys probably got to look at each other and go, "Is this right or wrong?" - Yeah. - I mean, I can't imagine you guys following when somebody blinded me. - Now, I know what you mean. - Yeah, yeah, wow. How did you become, you know, one thing that we did in covers how you became the president so fast? What was it about you that you think the guy's respected? - You know what I think it was? I think a lot of it had to do with the structure in my life. And I attribute that to the Marines, to the Department of Defense, my martial arts training, you know, really disciplined. I'd like to party, but I was strictly a recreational drug user. I'd never had a drug problem. I can walk away from the party on Sunday morning and not worry about party. And again, till the next party showed up, I didn't go looking for the party. If I came upon a party and I wanted to participate, I did. But that's a real luxury when you live in that world. I don't know what was going on in the military, but I think there was a point in time, narcotics were becoming a problem, true or not? - I mean, I think narcotics are always a problem. - Yeah, I think. - Yeah, and it became a problem in the Hells Angels. I think that probably one of the worst things that ever happened to the Hells Angels in the outlaw bite culture was meth. I mean, it's just, it's a mind altering physical and emotional drug. It, you know, people think they have this unlimited power of control and the reality is it chips away at you. - This actually does not sound very similar to the military at all, to be honest. - Okay, well, I don't know. I mean, what are the, I mean, so what are the revenue streams? - Revenue streams are personal private little cartels that people set up themselves, you know, Tony Tate, the FBI professed that Tony Tate was very, very successful in infiltrating the Hells Angels and setting Hells Angels up. The reality is he had access to people in Canada, people in Europe, people across the United States. And after like a three year investigation, I think he busted serious offenses, maybe 10, 13 guys. I mean, that's not a lot of people that if their contention is you're controlling the methamphetamine market and you are living off this, you can only get 13 guys. I think the people that were making the big money, they didn't want to share it with anybody. That's why my contention has always been, we're not a criminal organization. It's an organization saturated with criminals, independent from the structure of the club. The structure of the club is about brotherhood, motorcycles, and riding, but it certainly taken its toll. It's eroding, you know, it was eroding. That's one of the reasons I left. - So if I'm understanding you correctly, the revenue streams, so you have your club members, the club needs money, but maybe the club doesn't necessarily know where the money's coming from. So then you have all the members of the club run in their own extra curricular businesses. - So what's happening to participate? A lot of the guys work, you know. You got to be fair about that. A lot of the guys work, they're construction guys, they're truck drivers, but there's a lot of them who are hustlers. - So how does the club make money? Do they take a percentage of it's do's, it's do's. The government makes allegations, the club is worth billions and millions. Well, perhaps there's that kind of money running through a particular group of individuals, but the club is a nonprofit organization. It's registered with the United States government as a nonprofit organization. They don't make money off their trademark. - So it's very complex issues, you know? And you know, it, the club was very simple at one time. You got a motorcycle, you came to the bar, you went to the Kern River, you went to Baselake, you hung out at the fire, you had a beef with somebody, you got it off your chest, perhaps maybe you threw blows, you know. Nobody went and got a gun, nobody went and got a knife, nobody went and got bullets. The worst thing was you got to buy breakfast, man. You know, you lost the tussle and you know. - That's how it was when you went in. - Yeah, and it's made this, it's made this transition that nobody trusts anybody, looks on, you're sitting in a room with a bunch of guys. Imagine being in a room with some guys. It's like probably like going out in a mission. - I used to work for the CIA. - I know you do. (laughing) - So I get being in a room full of people that you don't fucking trust. - Yeah, but this is the thing. And maybe this is the proper way to explain it. You go from a group of seals, you're on a mission with, you love these guys, you believe in these guys, you know you can count on these guys. You may not agree with all of them all the time, but you know they're there when the shit comes down. And then you make a transition. You're trying to accomplish the same thing. But now, you're in a room of people, you're not sure where they're coming from. And it's a slippery slope. Like the end for me, it was two years, man. (whooshing) - If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know this is something I care about. We've had regenerative farmers and health experts on. We've talked about soil health, clean water, glyphosate, food security, and how disconnected most Americans are from where their food actually comes from. Might be time to start paying some attention. 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That experience has just always made me extremely paranoid about what's being sucked out of my phone, what information are people getting. I wanted something that could protect everybody. And so we turned it into an application. We call it the Glacier app. We have Secure DNS. Now what's Secure DNS? Well, very simply put, Secure DNS keeps your phone from being exploited while you're browsing the internet. Just a couple of buttons, your phone's protected. You got yourself a burner number, or more. You hit connect, done. You're protected. This is like the real James Bond shit. MI6 CIA level stuff made in the U.S. The Glacier app.com or just go on the App Store and look up the Glacier app. Take your privacy back. Download Glacier today. Let's go back to right before the break. We're talking about how do the clubs make money. Okay, I could mentioned non-profit. I'm curious why were the clubs set up to be non-profits? Were all the chapters non-profits? Well, the club, the Hells Angels name, the logo, is people claim this and I think there's a lot of merit to it. But the Hells Angels brand is one of the most powerful and recognized brands of indosistence. Whether that's true or not, I guess that's up for debate. When we established in the late 70s, we thought we got established a trademark board. We've got to protect our trademark. I was on the board a gentleman. I do not get along with to this day. Flash was on the board, done a lot for the club, did a lot for the trademark. I'm not going to take that away from it. Irish was on the trademark board. Irish was murdered. Different individuals. I think there might have been seven or eight of us initially on the board. We used Limbock, Limbock and Sutton. Some very powerful trademark attorneys on the West Coast. They were located up in the Bay Area and they handled. I may have some of these wrong, but I don't think so. They handled Levi Strauss. I know that one for sure. Coca-Cola, perhaps Pepsi Cola, Mastercard. The rest of them I couldn't really remember. They were significant to me in the Hells Angels. So you had these trademark lawyers representing these powerful trademarks, recognizable trademarks, Levi trademark, the Mastercard, whatever it may be. I get a phone call from Mr Sutton. He said, "George, I'd like to talk to you." I said, "Well, you know, I'm in Southern California. It's very important you come up here. I want no misunderstandings. I want to tell you something." I'm going, "This is not going to be good." I go up there. This is back, like I say, in early 80s. You can fly to San Francisco for 30 bucks. There's a plane every 45 minutes there and then one back. So I jump on a plane. I go up there and Mr Sutton says that the other trademark brands have discovered they're also representing the Hells Angels. And he said, "They don't want their trademark brushing up against yours because it's not a good image. The Hells Angels don't have a good image." And I mean, how can you argue with them? You can't really. And I understood. But they helped us center it up. So it was a nonprofit organization. And the idea really was it was about protecting the trademark because what happens is when you have a powerful trademark and you don't use it. People will start doing what they consider fair use. And then ultimately, they'll claim you've abandoned your trademark because you're not using it. Well, you know, the American government set up as capitalists. You're not using it in a monetary manner. And they'll try to take your trademark over. It's very complicated. I don't understand at all. But I know Mr Sutton is the guy I dealt with most of the time. And he taught me several things about trademark. And so you got to control the narrative. You know, what is your trademark stand for? And what does it mean? You got to control the narrative. You have to protect it from people infringing on it. And if you don't do that, that's how you lose control of your trademark. It's just like, are you familiar with the J.K.D. Cundo Bruce Lee's martial art thing? What about it? Well, he their family didn't protect the trademark. And they lost control of the logo. And the J.K.D. thing, it's people can use it. It's fair use is what they call it. And that's what we were trying to avoid with the Hells Angels. We were trying to make sure that the trademark was protected. And it was set up as a nonprofit organization. I'll tell you, I'll give you an example. In the mid '80s Marvel Comics made a Hells Angels cartoon book, we immediately got it shut down. And we protected our trademark. We sued them. They settled out of court for, I think, $60,000. We gave the money to Ronald McDonald House, Council for Children, because we're a nonprofit. We couldn't profit from our logo. But we could protect our logo. But if we received any money, we had to give it away. Another thing is, you know who Roger Corman was? Roger Corman was, remember all the B movies in the '60s and '70s? Well, you're too young. '82, huh? Yeah, I know. I'm thinking about that. Roger Corman did all the B movies with these were upcoming stars. One of his directors was Martin Scorsese, Francis Ford Coppola, Jack Nicholson, Peter Fonda, Dennis Hopper. These are guys that all started in his films. He made a movie called "Nom Angels." He used our logo. We sued him and beat him in court. They paid us, but we had to use the money not in a profitable way. We gave some of it away. I can't remember what we did. I remember he gave us $60,000 for infringing on our trademark. These are the kind of things you have to do to protect your trademark. But that has nothing to do. I know what you're thinking about and what your question is. What type of money are you bringing in as a club? Are you talking about street money, illicit money? I'm talking about money. Where do you get the money for the building? Where do you get the money to throw parties? Do you get the money to have a warehouse full of guns, dynamite, and bombs? The machine couldn't. The dynamite was stolen. I'm being a smart ass, but I'm being serious. OK, I'll give you an example. We started doing benefit like dances and parties and whatnot at the Venturing Clubhouse. The capacity of that place, including the yard, we'd probably get 500 people there. We would charge five bucks, an entry fee, and then we would raffle off things. We would buy raffle tickets and you get a drawing. You win a letter coat or you win a case of oil, whatever it may be. You sell shots of liquor behind the bar. You sell hamburgers, hot dogs, whatever it may be. We made a lot of money that way. I personally felt like by the mid-80s, after all these guys got arrested by Tony Tate, that dealing drugs, man. It was just kind of a dead end. Everybody's going to get busted. In Ventura, I suggested there wasn't a few busts in Ventura, but they weren't real successful. They came after me in 2001, but the case collapsed. They couldn't prove anything. Whether people in the club selling drugs out, they were selling vikings. They were getting vikings from an airman named Joshua Adams. My son was involved in that Georgie. Joshua Adams, Georgie, Rahulio Bittillo was another guy. He was in a gang called Avenue Gangsters and a couple of Ventura Hells Angels. Out of 25 guys, you had two Hells Angels. The rest were just associate guys getting involved. I think it adds substance to my argument that people do illegal things, but they can find it to themselves because they want to keep the money. They don't want to bring they don't want to risk their freedom and harass and make a $100,000 and then bring it in and turn it over to the club. You know, and have to share it with people that didn't, I mean, it's just, it's interesting. It's great. It's great. You know, so if money was not an issue and the club is a non-profit, I mean, where does the power struggle come in? Where does the, because that's obvious, I mean, it has to be, well, I think you're talking about the 70s and all the, all the, all the inner club murders and assassinations and all this shit that's happening. What's motivating that? Because there's not, it's not, it can't, it's, no, I think there's no money then. I think it's money, but, you know, look, I never got deep enough into the military to understand jealousies and personality, conflicts, it was, you know, my attitude to the military was, you know, you have an MOS, you fulfill that job, you take your orders, some of them I didn't like, but in an outlaw type structure, I mean, you've got people making moves trying to control power, trying to control areas. You've got the dynamics, you've got the dynamics of who has more power of me or him, it's kind of like, you know, who's a dick's bigger, it's kind of that male mentality, I think, and I think that, it's a very primitive thinking, well, it's not motivated by, it's a primitive culture. Because I mean, I don't even understand how you would take over a territory if you do not have the funds to get what you need to do to, to, to enable that. Well, when you say, take over a territory, are you talking about our college trade, are you talking about perceived power, are you talking about real power? I don't know. I mean, whatever you're talking about, well, you know, I mean, if you're saying that the guy, a lot of the guys in the clubs had had regular jobs, they did. And then we're, and then we're talking about taking over a territory, when I think about taking over a territory, I think it's a, I think of gang wars sometimes, which is a military takeover. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I mean, maybe you could do it psychologically, you could do a brute force. But perhaps a combination, but it would take, it would take money, right? I mean, even if you, you'd have to pay your guy, I would think that would be a full time, a full time thing. And we're going to take this fucking territory, you guys are going to have to take off work. Well, then how are they going to make their, a living? Well, it doesn't work that way, but, you know, that's certainly a legitimate question. You know, you're just, you're going to need gun, you're going to need logistics, logistics cost money. Right. That's true. But if you're living in a small town, you've lived in the town of Ventura, there's, we come into the town of Ventura, there's eight bike clubs there. There's, let me see, let's count them. There's the Moulox, the Mongols, the Karnalas, the Cindy Kitt, the question marks who I'm friends with at the time, and the orphans, so that, that's seven clubs there. And you just slowly run everybody out of town. I mean, you know, that, that's basically what we did, and it wasn't for, to control them in our colleagues, it was, to control what was going to transpire in that town, who was going to come in that town, who was going to be allowed in that town, and it, it sounds like, perhaps a lot of bullshit, but it's not. I mean, you know, the, you mentioned the term primitive. I think the outlawed bike culture, it's very primitive and, and there's a lot of instincts going on. In 1987, when I came back from prison, I've learned something that was really unique, and it just resonated with me. The day I got to prison, I mentioned Guy Castellon earlier, that he'd killed Red Beard and Jangles, remember the Mongols. So I, I go out to prison, guys are there at Thermal Island Prison, this is before they had the holding centers, you, if you got a beef and the feds, you went right to the prison in Thermal Island, and then you went back and forth between court and the prison until your case was resolved, and then they send you off to a particular location. But when I got there, I asked Guy, I said, Hey, Guy, who do we have a problem with in here? And Guy said, we don't fight with anybody in here. Now, this is the war with the Mongols was going. We had a problem with outlaws back east. We had on and off problems with the banditos, a constant problem with the pagans. But when I asked him that question, he kind of startled me and said, Well, we don't fight in prison. And I'd never been to prison before. And I said, what do you mean we don't fight in prison, because we don't fight in prison. So what there was was an unwritten rule of nonviolence. So when I came home from prison, I wanted to apply that on the street. I thought, Well, if we're fighting on the street, but we're not fighting in prison, it would make more sense to me that we would be able to interact with each other if we're on the street with all the luxuries of everything we have, our bikes, our women, the drugs that people want, the alcohol, the party scene, or whatever. Why couldn't we apply that to the everyday lifestyle of the outlaw biker? And I started petitioning people, you know, set up a meeting with the outlaws, set up a meeting with the banditos, set up a meeting with the Mongols, eventually got an amnesty on the violence with everybody that lasted until 2002 and it just kind of all unraveled. But that position is not popular in the outlaw bike culture. They see it as a position of weakness. To me, to petition people and the hell's angels and the outlaws and these other organizations to not be violent, it takes more nerve than the act of violence. It's, you know, your manhood's getting questioned, your loyalty's getting questioned, you've got all these things going on. And I had some really interesting dialogue with the leader of the banditos, the guy Harry Bowman, George Wegger's international leader of the banditos. These were people that wanted to hold onto their power. These are guys now you talk about structure. These are clubs that hold absolute power the leaders do. And both leaders of these clubs, you know, one of them's in jail, do them life. The other guy, talk of died in jail because the racketeering law worked on them because of the way they were struck out. So I think the bike culture at large is very primitive and it's thinking, you know, it's very primal. And you start fighting, it's pretty easy to get along with people in the 60s. You see another guy on a outlaw type of look with his bike and even if he might be in a club, you kind of want to hang out with him. You kind of want to stop, talk to him, hey, you broke down, you need anything. That was kind of the essence of the lifestyle than the 70s come, you know, it gets a little bit tense. The war with the outlaws breaks out in Pakistan by 1977, the war with the Mongols breaks out in the West. And you can't, you can feel the shift, you ever feel the shift in something, you feel the shift and you go, you know, what's going on here? And it just ultimately changes and changes and changes and unravels until 1986. I go, what are we going to end these wars? Why are we fighting all these battles? Not only are they not productive, they're endless and, you know, you as a military man, when you guys go into some place, you have an objective, right? You're trying to achieve something and I used to ask people, I go, this is like, these wars that were involved with, they're like a train with no destination, man, I was just going to ask you that, there's no destination. And I'm trying to reason with people. So I'm in a dialogue with Sunny, I've worked something out with the banditos on territory. We'll stay in these areas, they'll stay in their area, there'll be no issues, no pushing and pulling. And, you know, I go to Sunny and this is an open meeting with, you know, twelve, 15 leaders in there from different charters, and I say, "Look, I want to meet with the manditos." I said, "I want to take you with me." I said, "If Sunny Barger shows up at this meeting, they'll know I'm an earnest, and I go, we'll be able to negotiate and get whatever we want, because I got the man with me, Sunny Barger." And he wouldn't go, and I said, "Well, at least give me a reason why you won't do it." And he said, "Because I just don't fucking like 'em." And I think what it really was about, he just maybe liked the violence. I don't know. I mean, how do you explain something like that? It's very primitive. It's the ego. Yeah, a lot of ego. It's the inability to change your fucking mind. And why is that? Because you're worried about what everybody else thinks. Exactly. It's absolutely in it. Is that like the guy that discovers the other tribe with a cave going? That looks a lot more comfortable than standing out in a rain. And so what do they do? They decide, "We're going to get Joe and Harry and Bill. We're going to go over, and maybe we'll act like we're going to be friends with him, and we'll beat him with our clubs that they've never seen before, because they've never seen weapons." I mean, I don't know. I can only speculate how this stuff happens. And I find it fascinating, because I've been in the middle of it. And I watch people, and I know how they think. And sometimes people are just unpredictable. You think you've figured them out. And then something happens, and they go sideways. Did you total spop to my head? You're in this through Vietnam, right? And I think, I mean, I don't know about today, but there was a lot of draw. There was a lot of interest in Biker clubs from my generation, coming home for more, a lot of interest. Vietnam sounds like there was even more interest. And I think those are some of the baddest motherfuckers on the planet that guys have served in Vietnam. Did you have a lot of those guys coming in? We have some, not a lot, I think, by then. Do they have a. They had the wrong club. They had some vets. They started the wrong club. And we were never at odds with them, but we never got close to them. But I used to argue with Sonny all the time about certain things, but Sonny sometimes would say the most profound things. When I had free reign, and I mentioned that earlier, we were kind of the kings, the Hells Angels, man. Everybody knew who the Hells Angels were. The Hells Angels were in the paper all the time. Hells Angels had movies made about them. Hells Angels were this. Hells Angels that. And perception perceived, perception achieved, if you will. I don't know if you understand what I'm saying. Sometimes people think you're tough. Perception is reality. Yeah, they think you're tough, because that's what they read in the paper, and that's how it's perceived on a movie. But you've got these guys coming back from Vietnam. And they're going to fuck those guys. I'm not going to do what they say. And Sonny and I got a big dialogue about it one time. We were both on the same page. We weren't arguing. He goes, you know, fucking Vietnam changed everything. And I said, "What do you mean?" He goes, "What do you way up?" I just, I'm just looking forward to hearing where you go with this. Yeah, and I said, "What do you mean?" And he goes, you know, he goes, "Before the war, he goes, we told people to do shit. They just did it." And he goes, "Now they're, oh yeah, get off your fat ass and make us." And that was basically it. There was a lot of people that got military training. And, you know, we talked about our roots were within the military, but it became diluted over a period of time. Now you've got a bunch of guys that have gone off to war. Sonny was smart enough to know all that. Do you remember when Sonny Barger announced to President Johnson? He wanted to send a squad of health angels. You know, he wanted them to be trained and all that stuff. Look, Sonny's smart enough to know that was never going to happen. But God damn it was great publicity. I mean, you know, it was all over the news and, you know, talk about controlling the narrative. I mean, Sonny knew how to control the narrative. You know, he, it wasn't real sophisticated, but some of the stuff he came up with, you know, it was sort of brilliant. But I think the Vietnam War changed a lot of things in this country as far as people doing something. Then you have to understand. And I'm speaking from experience as an old man, okay, I'm almost 80. I'm going to be 80 here, a year, a little over a year. People come back from Vietnam. It was a very unpopular war. Now you're a military man. So you know, and you respect all those people that were in country. But there were a lot of people in the United States that didn't find them very attractive, didn't find them very heroic, and it was wrong. But you guys came back from the United States getting attacked at 9/11, and it was, it's a whole different ball game, man. I mean, you had to, it was almost like the country was unified and it's at the beginning. Yeah, in the beginning. But it gets, it all gets diluted. It, the ball never got as bad as Vietnam coming home, not even fucking close. But it did get, it did. Yeah, I get very underperish, underperish. Let me, can I ask you a question? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Before you guys go into combat, I don't know if this is true. I have a couple of friends that are seals, ex seals, actually. Did they used to give you guys a psychological evaluation? Every time? Before you went into combat? No. No. And initially? Initially to get into the teams. And did they give you one after your missions? No. When he came back, that, that's the thing that kind of alarmed me, that, that puts you guys in these precarious awkward positions. And you come back and it's like, I mean, what do they, what do they do for you? And, and, you know, my daughter goes to, they don't do anything. My daughter goes to Miller, my daughter's a lawyer, and she takes advantage of military, I can't remember, veterans court or, it's a special court. It's criminal court veterans, what's up? Veterans court. Yeah. And she's used it several times. It's beneficial for the, for the veterans. But it appears that bringing these people back and just kind of turn them loose and take a chance there and equate this together. I'm sure some people out there, they go, I was in bullshit. But I tell you, when I came back from prison and so in 2007, there was a fire bombing, two fire bombings at tattoo shops in Ventura. Of course, they said I was responsible. I gave the order. I didn't certainly didn't do it, but I gave the order. By 2011, I get indicted. 2013, we start going to trial. The case starts collapsing. My daughter's like hammering away at stuff with another lawyer. They offer a sweet deal. I take the deal because I'm on count six, seven and eight. I'm looking at mandatory minimums of life. And you know what that sentence is. You know, you get found guilty in one of those counts. You go to prison for life. That's just a mandatory sentence. So I now come back. It's 2014 or 2015. And I stay on parole or probation, whatever you want to call it. Feds change. They don't call it parole anymore. They call it probation. Stay on probation until 2018. So that's 11 years. You've got the investigation going on. You know, the cops are crawling around or investigating you. They're asking questions. Then you get the beef. Then you've got the pending trial. Then you do your sentence and then you come home and do your probation parole, whatever you want to call it. Not once. Not once did they ever ask me how my reentry into society was. All they wanted to do and all their interest was they thought I had a bunch of money hidden somewhere. They were looking for the money. And They wanted their fair share of any money. I had any money. I mean, I did a show Outlaw Chronicles, they wanted to take all my money. They said I wasn't I shouldn't profit off my criminal past, you know, you can imagine what they were saying. Who is this? This is they United States probation office So they never once asked me and I guess the point I'm trying to make is you know I don't know what the count is now what isn't over a quarter million dollar a quarter million people incarcerated in the United States I actually mean, that's a big business, you know, and what's interesting is everybody and Each family it always it seems at one time People didn't talk about family member going to prison. It was kind of embarrassing It's now it seemed like every family's at least got one family member that went to prison for something Because it's become such a big business. I guess I'm just using this platform to complain that You know, they put people in a position. They put you guys in a position. Like I said, you come back I mean, just went over there. You engage some people, you know, I don't know what you did or didn't do. How does that affect you guys? And it sets out. It's horrible. I mean, there's yeah, it is the it's the it's I mean suicide is The suicide rate is insane. The divorce rate is insane. The addiction rate is fucking insane. I mean But I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think that I think that the country literally just doesn't give a fuck about veterans And they've proven that over and over and over since fucking World War two They just don't the country doesn't give a fuck the government doesn't give a fuck the people don't give a shit If they did it wouldn't be this way. Okay, so We've got a 98% Conviction rate with the feds. I don't want to insult anybody. I'm not not comparing X-convicts to military whatever trying to make a You know, I'm trying to make a comparison here, but not that in the same manner that some people may have missed her But don't misinterpret what I'm saying The Conviction rate is 98% it's pretty goddamn high and you know the feds there's a lot of veterans in federal prison for Just various things a lot of people said they've been putting in Scams like selling them weapons doing this doing that. I was in Texas. There was a couple of Navy seals down Or I didn't get close to them. I don't know what they were there for didn't ask you don't ask people what they're what they're doing but Why are the prisons so full and I think a lot of it is in 1986 I fought my case. I pled not guilty and I fought my case and I beat it. I proved that the government framed me The jury came back and said they want to send a message to Washington to knock this shit off and 2013 My my daughter and I you know, we talked it over. She didn't think she could win the case She goes I think because of the publicity. I think because the outlaw bike movement has gotten so big and it's a worldwide Phenomena she goes I don't think you're gonna get a fair trial and She goes we got a hammer at these guys chip them away to where they offer you a deal And I think that's why the prisons are so full and you know what point am I trying to make? I guess I'm just getting on a soapbox here a little bit and I know it's something you're very passionate about. Yeah, you know, it's you know People don't get it. You know, I had a prison. I'm an expert witness in trials for the defense something that The defense lawyers never had in the outlaw bike cases. I also had a prison consulting business, and you know, I would try to help people come to terms with What was going on in their life, and you know, I have this story. I tell Had a guy call me one day. I was applying to mine and I Tried to touch base with them, you know two or three times a week and every time he went to court And when he got done with court if I wasn't in court with him sometimes it wasn't good for me to appear in court with him because In California, I'm very recognizable and especially law enforcement. It's it's not appropriate And he was really down and I Said what's the problem? You know he goes well, you know, George They're treating me like a criminal and I said you are a criminal And I think sometimes people just can't come to terms With the situations they put themselves in now. I don't know what is for vets. I tell you if I Had all the money in the world. That's probably what I would focus on vets and dogs because I love my animals But I mean I had to make this guy understand, you know They're treating him like a criminal because he embezzled a bunch of money from a movie company, and I don't know I just don't know what we're heading as a country. That's all I guess I'm just Venting a little bit. I think a lot of people are wondering where we're heading as a country And I think they've been thinking that for a long damn time. Yeah, but well, you know, it's like I Was successful for about a decade and having an amnesty, you know Got along with the outlaws got along with the banditos. It was a war and are you familiar with the Nordic bike war? No, it was just a Helacious war between the hells-angels the banditos in Europe. I was instrumental in Along with George Wegger's the international president of the banditos and stopping that the Scandinavian governments the Danish government Specifically petition the United States government. They wanted two felons To be allowed permission to enter the United States. So George Wegger's and I can sit with him and try to negotiate a piece and The hells-angel representative his name was blondie. I don't know his real name. I can't remember it. He was a convicted double murder The Scandinavian government convinced the American government to let him enter it in the United States and come to this meeting The bandito representative was a guy named Jim Tinian. I think he was an international leader of the banditos in Europe So we had George Wegger's myself blondie and Jim and we had a special number That if anybody in law enforcement interfered we were to hand him the piece of paper and there was a I don't know who It wasn't Washington, but they would tell them to stand down and let us finish doing what we were doing That I don't know how long the visa was for that a special visa to get into the country negotiate They did then they went back They went back and Sudden the war they publicly met with the politicians and a lawyer and it was crazy. They announced it over a Danish TV that The war between the hells-angel of banditos was now over it Wow, it was it was quite a scene but Everything seemed to be gone. It was very unsteady very I was constantly negotiating with people Trying to go to Europe. I went to Europe one time. I went to Amsterdam. I was refused to entry They had a five-day hold on me. I was meeting with the banditos and hells-angels over there try to put the lid There were some fires and we're trying to put them out Refuse me entry put me on a plane to send me back and just by chance I wound up in Texas wound up meeting with the banditos Anyways, I met with him in Texas instead of Europe. I wanted to go to Europe because I thought it would be more effective, but So we had a Amnesty on the violence with the Outlaws the banditos the Mongols I was trying to negotiate with the pagans, but I never really got anywhere with them They just had no interest in Negotiating and everything was Shaky, how was your negotiate? How would I negotiate? Yeah, what are you negotiating? Peace peace? Stopped the violence When I ride through Chicago is it really necessary to shoot at me I'm on my bike. I'm riding from point A to point B I'm not there. I'm not trying to set up a town Charter I'm not interfering anything you guys got going. I'm just trying to get from one point to the other and I was successful But the bottom of As you know, we said earlier, it's just it's primal that whole outlawed culture is very primal and people just They just didn't want to be perceived as being weak and I you know just before the Arrangement with that outlaws was suspended The peace talks were called off you know, I talked to Taco one day about it and he said you know Georgie because I don't know much longer I can do this. He goes on my position is threatened. There was an upcoming guy named Spike that basically told Talk of that he was being perceived as weak by the club and Spike must have been very convincing because if you look up on the internet United States of America versus Harry Bowman you'll see that he put a murder contract on me They actually came to Ventura not once but twice I think the first time was just surveillance the second time they came there You know to shoot me whatever reason they didn't Why do you think they wanted to kill you? I think that Spike was a next ranger army ranger very aggressive guy and I think he had his eye on Taco's job as international leader and I think that He felt that this would solidify him at least To put him up at the same level as Taco Taco was a ruthless guy Him and I to go negotiated for probably three years met with him twice in person Lost count of the phone calls I had with him but Taco died of cancer in prison He They wouldn't even give him a compassion to leave to come home and die in his own bed I mean they let him die in prison. That's much they disliked him and Spike I don't know if you want to call him describing his top lieutenant He's doing a life for racketeering It's just These guys just don't want to be perceived as weak and You know what Taco said that to me and I said you know talk. It's not a popular position World we live in but I said I think it's a necessary position You know my my thought is that every time We shoot at each other Or we get a case and somebody goes to prison or somebody gets killed I mean we don't win anything, you know, I think that the government wins. I think that Like I said, you know, he talked to Jay Dobbins He has a particular Thought of what we're all about and he thinks we're all about crime and criminal activity thinks the club does it as a whole You know, I interviewed Jay myself, and I you know, I mean we had a cordial conversation, but you know, I don't agree with anything he says I can't get him to concede that It's not the club. It's individuals in the club the club wasn't established For that reason the club was about writing and brotherhood building motorcycles and Probably why I walked away because we lost sight Somewhere along the way. Yeah, I mean it definitely attracts a certain culture. 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It's the only one you've got Do you ever wonder what it takes to make an episode of the Sean Ryan show in this exclusive studio tour I'm taking you behind the scenes for an in-depth look at every part of the operation From the editing room in the main studio to the spaces where we film range day content and more You'll see how the show comes together meet some of the people behind it and get a closer look at the work That happens off camera when you become a paid member of the srs patreon community You get more than just the podcast watch new episodes early alongside other members Join monthly live shows with guest Q&As and submit questions Just like you see on the show for upcoming guests on the protector tier You'll also unlock exclusive range day videos behind the scenes content and premium ambience videos that you're not gonna find anywhere else you Join the patreon community today and get access to the full experience Why did you what was it that made you walk away Uh, sunny and I continually were fighting about protocol Rules he was been in the rules I uh every time I confront him it would turn into a big chaotic scene uh In 2002 Had a member and Josh uh harbor he went to cave creek to party and have fun uh And somebody killed him And he was a ventura health angel and we're on the street through law enforcement was that he That was a message to me from sunny whether that's true or not. I don't know sunny and I never had that conversation But subsequently six months later four months later Sunnies when the sunnies guys got murdered and law enforcement said that was my answer I think that was kind of the beginning of the end it still took me like another eight years if you will But I just felt like we were losing The sight of what we were trying to had, you know It's like and when you're a leader, you know, you want to reach a goal. You want to try to achieve something And you have a vision and if the people around you aren't sharing a vision anymore. You know, maybe you're not an effective leader anymore you know I think sunny I have a saying, you know, don't make yourself bigger than the position you hold And I think sunny did that. I think he lost a concept. He made himself very large Don't fall for your own bullshit. Sunny had uh Done several things that I didn't think was appropriate You know, I confronted him uh the club seemed to be divided The uh There's a lot of speculation from law enforcement who was really running the club was me was it sunny And you know you guys both in Ventura. No, he's in He was in Oakland then he went to Arizona Then he returned to Oakland He Pretty much did what he wanted. Yeah, sure that was sunny barger, you know and Love it hated or condemned. I mean it just was what it was and you knew he was going to do that Throughout law. Yeah, absolutely, you know, and I I respected him For it and I hated him for it at times because he didn't Do what was best for the club. I felt like he did what was best For him he was a type of guy. I'm sure you ran into this in military. You run into guys. It will not reverse themselves You know, you know, he can show them in black and white. It's wrong They will not accept responsibility Uh probably around 2008 2009 Can't remember exactly where of I started thinking about Maybe it's time you know to move on you know and There was one thing that kept stopping me It was my ego Did I want to be the guy that used to be Jordan's Christie. And it was really difficult time. I did it kind of on the without telling anybody, didn't even discuss it with my son, discuss it with nobody. I went to the meeting, explained what I was doing. First of all, they misunderstood. They thought I was stepping down as president. And I said, "No, this is it for me. I've given you 40 years. It's time for me to move on." And I gave what I thought was kind of a passionate speech. I said, "We're fighting with the banditoms again, fighting with the Mongols, fighting with the outlaws, fighting with the pagans. And now you guys want to fight the Vagos. This was a bike club we had gotten along with since the mid-60s. And they wanted to fight these guys. And my position with them was when I get phone calls from another club and says, "Hey, what's the problem, George? We've always gotten along. Why is there an issue now?" And we can't find a way to resolve the issues. That makes me feel like we're being bullies. When you pick on somebody, whether you win or lose, when you pick on somebody, you're being a bully. So I just basically said, "Look, we're fighting wars on four fronts. Now we're going to have a fifth front with the Vagos." And I said, "Don't forget law enforcement." And I said, "Look, if you look at your history, when societies or cultures run out of people to fight, they turn inward." And I said, "I don't want to be here for that." And I said, "I think I'm played out. I give you guys 40 years. I'm going to move on." I took my patch off. I folded it up. I put it on the edge of the table by my chair where I sat at a chair at the kind of head of the room. And I remember I said, "Look, we've turned into the people rebuilt against. I go, we're not outlaws anymore." And I said, "I want to get back to the roots and this is what I'm going to do." But I said, "I want you to keep in mind that you guys need to do something because there's going to be a problem in the future. About six weeks later, four weeks later, something transpired up in Reno, Nevada. Jethro, who's president of the San Jose, who's a good friend of mine, got an argument with one of the Vagos and they shot it and killed him. So Jethro was now murdered by the Vagos. So full on war. At the funeral in San Jose, Steve, I think it was Rua's. He was a health angel. And Steve Tossin, another health angel who had a reputation of just being fierce as a fighter. And he started picking on Rua's, telling Rua, it wasn't responsible for Jeth Petagru's murder that he should have protected him better. He was the president. They started arguing and Steve Tossin's reputation caught up with him. He punched Steve Rua's and Steve responded by shooting him three times. So you've got a funeral five to seven thousand spectators. You got health angels being, the health angel being buried had been murdered. And you've got two health angels now fighting, who's responsible and one of them gets murdered. It was just a chaotic scene. I wasn't there, but I'm told it was a chaotic scene. Rua's snuck out of there somehow. They couldn't locate him. The police thought that perhaps Rua's had got thrown in Jeth Petagru's grave site. And they exhumed Jeth's body a couple of days later. They didn't open the casket, but they pulled the casket out, looked underneath it to make sure Rua's wasn't there. Eventually they arrested him three months later. So what I predicted basically came true, you know, was I happy about it? No, not happy at all. You know, Jeff was dead. Jeff Rua Petagru. Jeff Rua was dead. Steve was dead. Rua's was going to go to prison for three years. He put on a defense because Steve Tossin, I said, had a fierce reputation. He had killed somebody with his bare hands before my punch and he had hit a guy at a bar. He was a security guard at a bar. He hit a guy and the guy died from the punch. So I left, I left in good standing within a couple of weeks. Sunny changed my status to out bad. It wouldn't allow anybody to communicate with me. And basically trying to cut off any influence he thought I still might have. And he attacked my character and things slowly started unraveling for me. Made a deal, went to prison, pled guilty to one, what was it, account of interfering, you know, love this, interfering in interstate commerce. You know, by fire bombing, they said I ordered the fire bombing by fire bombing the tattoo shops. I interfered in their ability to make movies. So it's interfering in interstate commerce. It's a federal crime. I mean, it's kind of one of those things. What's that? Interesting. Yeah, it's kind of one of those racketeering crimes, but you know, you're not re-coated. I went to jail. I came back. Sunny got word that the history channel had approached me about doing a six episode series. Told me I couldn't do it. I did it. Told me I couldn't write a book. I did it. He threatened to sue. St. Martin, a book publisher. I did the book with my first book, Exile. Just was real careful. You know, what we put in the book, what we said, what, you know, wasn't said. You know, the book was successful. Outlaw crimes were successful. I wrote a second book. Like I stated earlier, I wound up going to Spain. The book was optioned. And spent three years in Spain. I came back. I was single now. I married a girl that I'd known since I was 12. We were lifelong friends and kind of started over. I want to ask you something. Okay. What do you think happens when you die? What do I think happens when you die? In all honesty, I do not know. I believe in a higher power. I, you know, I like to microdose. And I contemplate on where I'm going and what I'm doing. I think perhaps hell is here on earth. Or perhaps if you leave this planet and you're not satisfied with how you conducted yourself. I mean, even bad people have to have that little voice in their head telling them, hey man, you're fucking up. You know, I just, I just truly believe that. And the reason I believe that is interacting with all these men for decades, some of them very dangerous. And I think their biggest enemy most of the time was themselves. I don't know. What do you think? What do I think? Well, I'm a Christian. Oh, you're a Christian. There you go. Okay. You go to heaven or you go to hell. That's about it. Well, I'll tell you, I got, I came back. I was very satisfied. Really, uh, my wife and I were having a lot of fun. And I got a phone call. And that was the premise for this book, "Cross on the Rubikot." I, uh, we got a phone call from a club member. Club members aren't supposed to talk to me. And they can be punished by, you know, an ass chewing all the way to being expelled from the club for communicating to me or with me. And the guy said, "Do you recognize And that's my voice, and I said, "Yeah," and I said, "I'm smart, I asked to him." And he goes, "This is my rabbi," and he said, "Look, I called you." He used the term, you know, what his close friends used to call Ralph, are you familiar with that? We used to sunny, his name is Ralph, so we would say, "Hey Ralph, you know, like, Mike was wanting to really be serious, or brotherly, I go Ralph, you know, I've talked to you, man. I want you to listen to what I'm saying." So anyways, the person I did around said, "If you're going to reconcile with Ralph, because you need to do it, because he's not going to be around much longer." And I got up out of bed, made my soul cup of coffee, and I started thinking about all these decades of interacting with all these people, and in the morning I started writing this book, and it took me three years. I wrote it, and the ending was true, but I felt it was soft, and I just said, "Hey, you know what, I'm going to pull all the bullshit away, because people ask, you know, why didn't you go back, or why don't you try to reconcile?" And I explained all that in the end of this book, but it's interesting that, you know, you tell me, you need to go to heaven or you go to hell, and I'm not going to say what it is, but I have a message for Sonny at the end of the book, but anyways. [Music] [Music] So how did you become a Christian? That interest me. That is a long story, but I was going through some serious internal battles with yourself, and questions of conscience, or emotional instability, or very troubled with the world, angry at the world, or just angry at the world, a lot to do with kids. I started diving into a lot of the shit that happens to kids sexually, and exploitation, trafficking, you know, abuse, all that kind of stuff, and I got really deep into it. And then some of the minor and possession, or minor attracted persons have you heard about this shit? There is a section of the country who wants to make people that are attracted to kids a condition, and they want to call them minor attracted persons. And that makes it okay. That makes it okay in their mind. That's going to be a problem, you know, let me tell you, so, okay, let me finish. So, I still have a very vocal about it, and I just didn't really see people doing anything, and a lot of the people that I respected leaned that way politically, and I just could not understand how you could be okay with that. And anyways, so, having this internal battle in my head, and I had basically tried to convince myself, Sean, if you're the only one out here fighting this shit, who fucking cares? Maybe you're the one that's fucked up. Maybe you shouldn't be doing this shit. Maybe you should just let it happen. Not that I'm fucking stopping anything anyways, right? But it just really troubled me, and I just couldn't understand like how was happening. And in short, I was on a hike, and I had felt like I had just surrendered my fucking soul to the devil, you know, but I didn't really believe at that time. And I walked through this gate. We were on him being my wife from our vacation. I walked through this gate, and this guy comes up to me. And he tries to talk to me. I don't want to talk to him. Obviously I'm in a fucking mood, right? And I had smoked a joint before I went on this hike. I tried to call myself down. That didn't do it. That was the worst work of it. And of course, my wife turns around and talks to him, and I'm like, fuck, you know, I just want to go to bed. And so I turn around and I look at him and he fucking looked at me in the eyes, and he read every single thought from front to back in my fucking brain and articulated it and said, you don't need to be worried about these kids. That's not your fucking problem. That's not your battle. And then he went through all the other things. There was stuff about trans kids, there was stuff about China. All these things were going on in my head. And after the first thing, I blanked out because I couldn't understand how another. It's almost like it's too much information coming in. I hadn't even articulated this shit to my wife. And this guy's just yanking thought after thought after thought. Who was this guy? I've never seen him. Never seen him. Never seen it for a week. We were there for a week. And I'm, you know, I was a seal. I contracted for CIA. I pay attention to security. And a lot of those guys that were working at that gate knew who I was. From the, from the podcast. So I had, you know, stopped and talked to them. Never saw this guy though. New the other ones never saw this. Never saw me again. Never saw him before. Never saw him again. This was the last night. So he reads my mind legitimately reads my fucking mind. And I walk back. I'm walking back to my bungalow and talking to my wife and I'm freaking out because I'm a teller. I go, holy shit. I think that was fucking God talking to me. And before that, there's some other things that happen. I'll shorten it up a little bit though. Three things happened. There was another guy. My best friend died of a heroin addiction. He was, he was, he was a seal. We contracted it. Say I ate together. I didn't wind up joining a biker gang, obviously, but I did go down to Columbia and got really wrapped up into drugs down there. And he was with me. And so anyways, point being we were very, very close. He was my best friend. And, but he was also always known as a protector. He was a pro hockey player before he was a seal. He was a seal. He was a CIA contractor. And each one of those segments of his life, everybody around him considered him to be a protector at every level. And, and I had tried to save his life. He had moved him with me, did it it up, obviously, you know, you know, the pound end. Anyways, we go there. I'm in the super vulnerable position. There's this guy running around all fucking week. He looks exactly like my best friend. We go out in town. He was out in town. If we're on a hike, he's on a hike. It's, it was really odd. We're at the pool. He's at the pool. If we're at the fucking restaurant, he's somewhere in the restaurant. Turns out we'd been there all week. We walked back to the bungalow from the gate. Maybe a three to five minute walk. The entire time we were there turns out there was only two thing, two, two, two rooms in this bungalow was like a duplex. He was in the other fucking side. So first time I'd seen him. So that was a sign. Then I walk in the room and I had went there and I don't really have many friends anymore. And especially here in town. And I had met another seal and his name was Dan Cerillo. And me and him had a special bond. He owned a handful of hospitals and had a very successful security company. And I have this. And it was one of the only relationships I've ever had in town where I don't fucking need anything from you. And you don't need anything from me. So we don't have to worry about the asks. And we can just sit down and be friends and not have to worry about what the fuck do you want from me. Well, he died. And that really bothered me because it was my only friend here. You're on guy. No, old guy. In my opinion, had a great death died on a hunting trip with his son. And I mean, I wish wish he was still here but if there's a way to go and you get you know and any Anyway, so as soon as we walk in the hotel, me and my wife are having a discussion, my cell phone dings, I don't answer because I'm in this heavy discussion like what the hell is going on? How do this guy just read my fucking mind? Check my phone afterwards. It's his daughter who I had never met and she sent me a text that said that she had just walked into her dad's gun room for the first time since he had passed and he was in there and he told her that he wanted her to reach out to me because I was the person that had become the closest to him and that I knew a side of him that she didn't know and for those three things to all happen, damn, they're simultaneously literally within minutes of each other. I knew somebody was trying to fucking tell my sister and I could go on because the shit continues on but it didn't continue on until I got home. So I started looking into some of the stuff that had happened and I had called a friend of mine who wound up being a spiritual mentor of mine, his name is Eddie Penny, he was a Seal Team 6 guy and I'll send you the episode. And I served with him very briefly. I wouldn't say we were close, we did a deployment together and then he went on to develop a group I hadn't heard from him for fucking probably 10, 15 years. Then I brought him on the show and he talked about his, how he found faith. This guy, back when I knew him before, he's just a fucking savage. Never in a million years would you think they would happen to this guy. And he told me this and just like this, told me how it happened and I released his episode on Christmas Eve, every single person since him has brought up Christ one way or another for over a year. So I called him and he started kind of telling me what some of the stuff means and then my whole team here turns out, I didn't even know this but my whole team here very well versed in this. So it was almost like after that moment, I was just completely surrounded with people that could guide me in the right direction. You know, I hope that happens for you. Well, there would be nice. You know, I'm thinking, you know, I heard you talk about microdosing. I have another, you know, I don't know how seriously take psychedelics or if you even do plan medicine, but I have another best friend. And so when I do do that, I am, I always have an intention that I want to get out of it. If I do a heavy dose and I did a journey with another one of my best friends. His name was Nick is Nick Kephaletus and he's still a good friend of mine. He was a Marsok marine, marine raider and we did a journey together out in the woods several years ago and I asked him afterwards what his intentions were and he said he just wanted to know if he had a relationship with God because he wasn't a believer either. And in the same fucking journey, I looked at this waterfall with him and I a perfect sculpture of Jesus Christ's head was etched in that waterfall. And we looked away or I looked away, looked back, still there, walked away, still there. Was there all fucking night until the next day I woke up and then I did not see it. So the initial guy could have been an angel when you think that, well, I will finish the story because now you're interested. So then I come home and I told you I called Eddie Penny and I told him what had happened to me. This hell happened in Sedona and Eddie started telling me, all right, this is what this is and my wife's telling me to like Sean, God's always been around you. You just don't fucking take the time to pay attention and that's why you never see it. But look at your life. Look at what's happened. He's everywhere around you. And so I call Eddie, I tell him this and I laid at night down in a fire and he starts telling me, you've chosen a side now, all these attacks are going to happen. These spiritual attacks are going to start to happen because nobody gives a shit if you're sitting on the sideline. But once you choose a side, the attacks will start to happen. So he starts telling me about guardian angels and that everybody has a guardian angel. Now I'm very new at this. Even though I grew up Catholic, I still, I just, you know, I didn't believe I was a kid. I was forced to do it. I didn't really care. And then lost pretty much everything I went to war. And the next day, I have a meeting with my IT guy and I thought it was going to be about IT shit. And he's a very devout Catholic and I had a call with him at noon. I remember noon was a long call and it wasn't about IT shit. It was the exact same conversation that Eddie Penny had had with me and those two don't know each other, couldn't be farther apart from their personalities. They would not get along. And he starts telling me, spiritual attacks are going to start to happen. You have guardian angel, they've known you since before you're born. And I'm still like, okay, whatever. So I drive home for a late lunch. I have lunch with my wife, tell her about these conversations. I'm driving back to work. I look at the odometer or the, you know, gas left to eat says 444. I look at the clock. It also says 4444. And then I think back and I go, this is four hours and 44 minutes after that phone call with Adam. So I text one of my guys who you know, you just met him and I say, hey, look up what 4444 means will be at the office and shortly get to the office. He has a pulled up on his laptop and he goes 4444, what do you think 4444 means? 4444 means your guardian angel wants to know that they're watching over you. You know, when I got it, I spent a year in solidary confinement and I came out of that beef very bitter, you know, I try not to appear bitter and I'm not bitter as like, I understand police come after guys like me, you know, and it's just all part of the game and I don't hold animosity, but when I came out of that solitary confinement, I'd spent a year there, they were using my mom as a bargaining chip. She was dying to cancer and they were using my mom as a bargaining chip to get me to plead out and not fight the case and whatnot. And I came home, she died the next day. It came to see me that day and the next day she died and when my dad died, I had taken his wedding ring and I'd taken all the diamonds out of it and I put them in a heart for my mom because I wanted her to have my dad's diamonds with her and she was in the hospice and somebody stole the diamonds off of her. I was so mad, I went to the administrator and said, "I don't know what happened, who you got work in here?" I said, "But tell them the smartest thing for them to do is walk on the venture peer and throw it off the end of the peer because if I see anybody with that on, I'm not asking any questions, I'm just reacting, I don't care who has it on." And like I said, I was so mad and so angry, I just, everything was unraveling, the club wasn't the same, it didn't feel the same to me. We were in the midst of a new era with, you know, Jason Osama bin Laden and everything that had happened and I had a guy come to the house and he was a minister. And he came there to tell me that I had garnered in the angels for watching me and he goes, I just want you to know, you know, the human foot. referred to them as some sort of good dogs that protect you or something to do with the Bible. I didn't quite understand it. I didn't say no. He was sincere. I knew he believed him what he was telling me. When I was in solitary confinement, they quit giving me a mail. They started sending my mail back. They started playing little games with you. In the month of December, I had 350 pieces returned to the people that sent mail to me. The only thing I had in solitary confinement for a while was a Bible. It took everything away from me. I was reading the Bible a lot, but I came home and there's a lot of things you can't explain in this life and they're mysterious. Like how the fuck you're still sitting there? Exactly. When everybody around me has been, there's only a couple of guys left and they're dead. I met with somebody that I was very close with. Somebody I trusted with my life met with them recently. I know you understand this. Him and I had a conversation about things that happened 30 years ago that I couldn't have that conversation with anybody else but him because we both understand and I think we're both wondering what the hell is fucking going on. Anyways, first off, what you say and what you've just told me, it's interesting and it tracks my attention, but I don't know it's like I have this little hardheadedness. You know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about. It almost goes back to that we were speaking earlier. It's like I don't want to pair weak. That is the weakness. Yeah. You know, it's just like I said when I had to come to terms with, I had two choices. I could either quit the club or I could become a hypocrite and do the things that I was condemning other people for doing and I chose to walk away. But anyways, I think there's a good place to end it. I think so. But before we do. I'm going to give you something to chew on. That is the Jesus calling. So for dummies like me that can't understand the Bible, we have to resort to something like that. But what that is and you can take it, leave it, do whatever you want. We'll take it. But that is a short little couple of sentences every day. It's not a big lift. It's easy to understand. See if that tugs on you. I will. I will take it and I appreciate it. I've enjoyed being here talking to you. I hope I made sense. There are some of the subjects very delicate and very personal. It was an awesome interview. It's been a long journey, my friend. But George, God has a plan for you, man. You don't have a lot of time to figure it out, but I hope you do. I appreciate that. I'm going to take this and I am going to put my nose in. That's a love to him. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. 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