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Speaker 2the last category, Tim. Good God. 1977. The last category. What's the one category we haven't talked about yet? Jazz fusion. Jazz fusion. Now, some people, that will strike horror into their very soul. Yeah. But we like jazz, don't we? We like music that's influenced by jazz. We like jazz. And we haven't talked a lot about jazz on. on the podcast. I think partly because it's difficult to talk about jazz in a way. I mean, I'm not a player. I can't play jazz. I don't know what, you know, what they're doing a lot of the time. I love it. And there's also a sense that with music that's predominantly instrumental, you know, you don't have the lyrics to talk about. You don't have that hook to kind of hang your discussion on. But let's try, because there are some great jazz records this year. Now, we were talking last night after we finished recording about your. No, the famous German label ECM. They, they're so reliable, ECM, particularly through the 70s. Almost any ECM record you buy, you know, it's going to be beautifully recorded, brilliantly performed, and no exception here this year. We have some great ECM records. We have an early Pat Metheny record, the fantastic American guitar player, Pat Metheny, Watercolors. I mean, what can you say about Pat Metheny? He's just, just a very unique player and still going strong to this day. It's a lovely record. The anomaly here might be Jan Garbarek's diss, or D record from this year, D-I-S, because this is an interesting one, isn't it? This is Jan Garbarek, the Norwegian saxophone player, playing against quite electronic sounding textures, although I think they're all made with a wind harp. Is that right? Yes. Which is this kind of weird instrument that produces these monolithic kind of drones, very deep, very powerful, almost overpowering drones, which he then kind of improvises over the top of. And I think, Ralph, Tanner also adds some guitar to it.
Speaker 3Well, there's a lot of crossover because, yeah, Watercolors was Metheny's second album. The first one, if you remember, has Jaco Pistorius on. Okay. And this one, he's got Eberhard Weber. So you've got Eberhard Weber is working Watercolors. He's making his own album. He's also working with the Ralph Tanner Solstice. Ralph Tanner's also working with Jan Garbarek. Jan Garbarek is also in Solstice.
Speaker 2Right. And we have an Eberhard Weber album from this year. And an Eberhard, is it the following morning? Which is like I was saying earlier, we were discussing this last night and you kind of concluded that he was, Eberhard Weber was probably your favourite ECM artist of all. Yeah. What is it about him that makes him stand out for you?
Speaker 3Well, on a live basis, he was actually, he was as engaging and as funny as his music was glacial. Very unusual personality. So there was a great friction to a degree, which was nice in the sense of this almost comedic figure then producing this glorious music. And he used to, he used to do a lot of gigs in the '80s in Britain and '90s, where he'd be improvising with his custom-made upright bass through loops. And it was lovely stuff. There's just a set, you know, I suppose I was very drawn to Pistorius and I was very drawn to Weber. He's just one of my favourite instrumentalists of all time. And there's a kind of, there's more of a grain in his music than you get in a lot of ECM. I think ECM, you know, if any, I think, Diss or Dee, as you say, that's one album that also has a kind of grain because of that monolithic texture of the main instrument. But a lot of ECM albums tend to be slightly antiseptic, slightly clean, so beautiful. And I think there's more of a grain, more of a grit to Weber's work. And he worked a lot with minimalism and loops, which were things I was always kind of drawn to as well.
Speaker 2He was more, yes, he seemed like he had slightly more of a composer's instinct. As well as the improvisers. So there's a lot of string arrangements on his record. Yes. For example, I think you're right about ECM. One of the problems with ECM, the downside of ECM is, yes, you can buy almost any ECM record and know you're going to enjoy it. It's going to be beautifully recorded, impeccably played. There is a sense that it's sometimes a struggle to find the ones, the albums that kind of transcend the archetype and sound like they're more than just, oh, it's another nice ECM record. And part of that also is the artwork. I mean, incredible artwork. But there's kind of uniformity across the catalogue in the way the albums are designed, the way they're presented, the way they're produced, the way they're played. And there are certain artists that don't seem to transcend that a lot of the time and just can just end up being like, oh, it's a nice, pretty ambient jazz record. Yeah. But there are some artists and I think Eberhard Weber is one of them where there seems to be a bit more rigour. And the best of them certainly do transcend the ECM cliché. Keith Jackson. Keith Jarrett's records quite often transcend the ECM sound. And Terry Riptold, some of his albums definitely transcend. Even though they still sound like ECM records, there's something about them that just gives them a little bit more character, a little bit more personality.
Speaker 3And to an extent Pat Metheny as well, because of course he had more of a homeland American influence that he brought to this very European label. And in some ways you can understand why he was that first breakout artist. Well, Keith Jarrett, arguably was the first breakout artist with the Colm concert. But then Metheny becomes stratospheric and signs to Geffen.
Speaker 2He does. And I think that's partly because he actually had a little bit more of a pop melody sensibility. I mean, some of the melodies are so catchy and, and, you know, almost took him over to that world of easy listening jazz. But then the great thing about Metheny, of course, he would go off, he would just as easily go off and make an album with Derrick Bailey of pure avant-garde noise.
Speaker 3Or Annette Coleman, didn't you work with him as well?
Speaker 2He did. Yeah. So he's an incredible, incredibly eclectic and diverse musician, but he was capable of fashioning this very accessible, almost pop, you know, jazz records too. But certainly during the ECM time, he was still, you know, falling into line with the kind of ECM sound in a way. But yeah, I mean, he's got enough of a personality to transcend that. There's lots of artists that recorded for ECM that I find largely interchangeable, because they just kind of fell into the ECM sound and didn't transcend it.
Speaker 3I mean, it was a model of good taste. And I think sometimes that models of good taste can become tedious.
Speaker 2Yeah. It can become almost too easy, too easy listening, background listening. Yeah. But certainly the Eberhard Weber album from this year, the following morning, that's one of his, one of his best records. It is. It's a gorgeous string arrangements. Yeah. Yeah. Also this year, we have, in fact, you mentioned in one of the earlier episodes how Weather Report kind of had their big crossover hit this year. Heavy weather. I have to say, perhaps not, not coincidentally, this is about the moment that I lose interest in weather. Report. I love the early records. I love the kind of luminous, abstract qualities of records like Mysterious Traveller and Sweet Nighter and the grooves and the and the open endedness of them.
Speaker 3And I prefer the early work just like you, you know, again, that kind of a more amorphous post in a silent way approach that they initially had. And then when they get into the to the deep grooves of Sweet Nighter, although I think my favorite album is Mysterious Traveller, actually, I mean, Sweet Nighter is very much a groove. Album in the way that on the corner is a groove album for Miles Davis. Whereas when it gets to Mysterious Traveller, this is when the compositions and perhaps his use of synthesizer, his use of sound because like Vangelis, like Stevie Wonder, like Richard Barbieri, like Brian Eno, Savinole is one of those artists where you recognize him with a single chord as much because of the sound, his treatments of synths. Again, he's got equipment that everybody in the world has access to. If you've got the money in the studio, but he uses them so distinctively and I love the album for that, but I've probably got more time for heavy weather than you, partly because Weather Report were always my favorite of the of the fusion bands. Really, I suppose Wendishi, Herbie Hancock was the other one, but I really liked Weather Report partly because there was a real sense of space and I love Pistorius, you know, he got involved in the band, but they're not one of the showboats. They're not writing fusion bands. There aren't endless guitar solos partly because there wasn't a guitarist, you know. It's much more reliant on texture, groove, space and melody. And obviously melody is to the fore on heavy weather. It is a pop jazz album and it probably, I think I hate what it spawned more than I hate it.
Speaker 2Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I don't, I don't really like pop jazz. I mean, the whole kind of move, move towards CTI style jazz. I think it's a bit of a mix of that. but it's just not necessarily something that appeals to me personally for me jazz fusion first half of the 70s i still like the influence of jazz in in other kinds of music but the actual jazz records themselves the ecm records probably being the exception
Speaker 3actually but what's interesting with the ecm records is that a little like jazz fusion itself but in a totally different way it became more accessible because if you listen to a lot of the very very early ecm albums there's a lot more um experimental free jazz and even yan garbrick comes from quite an experimental background is it afric pepper bird yeah
Speaker 2that's a great album
Speaker 3yeah but not an easy
Speaker 2listen no not at all no no i mean there's definitely you're right there is a sense that even during the 70s ecm find their kind of their sound the the stereotypical ecm sound but even then i mean they're still throwing out some quite strange records uh if you look through the catalogue you you're always surprised oh my god they released that in and
Speaker 3and they shift it because obviously by the 80s they've started the ecm new series and they're introducing you know steve rye charveau pet meredith monk it's a really interesting but there's some really strange
Speaker 2records by carla blay michael man yes that's true well
Speaker 3actually and they go against you know we're talking about ecm that received wisdom of the purity of sound recording and the carla blay and michael mantler albums they're more experimental more vibrant and they're more and uh sometimes more tasteless you know and in a way i quite like some of those like there's some great music um that blay and mantler produced but of course they were amongst the only artists that i think recorded themselves yeah they weren't produced by manfred exactly they didn't work in the uh in the studio in oslo um and another one who eventually did that was was i think steve tibbets who's an interesting guitarist who's been on ecm and his first album pretty good but he recorded this one and i think it's a really good album and i think it's a really good album and i manfred eicher and he was devastated because he had to record this in two days and he'd previously been experimenting on his own with electric guitars all sorts of loops and textures and he'd taken months over it and he had two days had to make this album and it is a good ecm album in inverted commas and he was so horrified that i think every album he did after that he just did by himself in studio america obviously it didn't work for
Speaker 2everyone that that kind of approach the ecm approach no i think there was a lot of work done but i think it's a really good album and i
Speaker 3think there was a real restriction in terms of the nature of the sounds and the time you had to record
Speaker 2the albums so other records we've got this year brand x moroccan roll i like brand x very much i mean what a great band you know percy jones on bass phil collins on drums robin lumley on keyboards great british players they had a very unique sound isn't it it's i mean this borderline progressive rock isn't it really brand x it's kind of halfway between well mind you you can say that a lot about a lot of jazz yeah to be fair it's it's halfway between progressive rock and and jazz music and isn't it really yeah
Speaker 3but there's also a connection again to eno who invented music as we know because he was using of course he invented
Speaker 2music invented music invented ambient invented he probably invented jazz as well well he invented motorhead invented motorhead invented afrobeat it was an idea
Speaker 3he had and he just cast off afrobeat afrobeat you know reggae well he did he probably introduced felicuti to david byrne we can probably did um but back in his time machine and
Speaker 2invented felicuti didn't even thought about it yeah
Speaker 3well he actually wrote the time machine by hg wells as well yeah yeah it's a pseudonym um but yeah i think that the brand x there's also a connection because i think eno was using um jones and collins on um another green world yes and the film music and the obviously music for film and time film music schoolboy era no i'm just saying
Speaker 2the film music album i wasn't saying that's what you said brian no
Speaker 3the film music i was saying
Speaker 2the film music album i wasn't saying it's called the film music album i thought you were i think it's
Speaker 3worse than lindsey mcvee by
Speaker 2far nothing's as bad as lindsey
Speaker 3mcvee the film music album by brian eno
Speaker 2acdc's late there be rock
Speaker 3that was a macbook error yeah no
Speaker 2london town by the clash
Speaker 3i said i am imagining god the clash doing a dub version of wings london town and it's sounding good in my head we're not
Speaker 2editing all these mistakes out to him by the way you know that i want i want these mistakes to be well yeah i should mention at this
Speaker 3point that we are deciding whether to edit our mistakes out or leave them in so you can hear what fools we really are but anyway as for this album i think there's also an element of the kind of ambient and groove experiments that eno was doing so there's a certain art rock aspect as well as progressive rock and i suppose yeah you're right i mean both brooford and brand x they were distinctive on the fusion sound you know they were not rip-offs of maha vishnu or return to forever or muandishi or weather report british about at all there is yeah yeah and i actually i mean one of my favorite albums is the one where they go completely off the rails which is product where they're recording as two separate bands in at different times isn't it and um it covers a lot of ground including them delving into r&b at times as well and doing it well because you know collins when he's unfettered is an amazing drummer and he has got that kind of lovely soul voice which he kind of uses in quite an unaffected way at this stage because he's just experimenting he's not you know writing for the 80s chart hits moroccan roll is possibly my favorite album of theirs along with product
Speaker 2okay okay i really like on unorthodox behavior the first one is great and the actual live album livestock is brilliant oh that is really good yeah i agree i mean they called this album moroccan roll because they felt it was more rock and roll so yeah so it's that part rock and roll more rock and roll yeah yeah very clever billow and elo did discovery discovery to be
Speaker 3fair discovery in some ways is more subtle
Speaker 2than more rock and roll yeah okay if you say so yeah so so this album is supposedly a little bit less jazz than the at least they thought so a little bit less jazz than the previous record yeah i mean yes you're right i'm just looking at the wikipedia page now yeah so there's a little song by phil collins in sanskrit no it's not wordless it's just sung in a language that you wouldn't understand unless you were uh oh fate with sanskrit again it's it doesn't feel like there's a lot of showboating going on for me
Speaker 3it's closer to weather report and it's closer to herbie hancock in that you don't quite have as many of those tight unison riffs or you don't it's quite a lot of those yeah there's some of those well obviously i know you know you're gonna i think there's more unorthodox behavior actually yeah probably um is it nuclear burn yeah i don't know yes um but i think that for me there's kind of there's a weightlessness at times they do have that kind of post in a silent way weightlessness and what i kind of like about them is that again this is music that is being made up as it goes along there's not very much pre-planning it appears it's a very natural expression i think there's i think there is you
Speaker 2know it's quite a fair bit of composition i mean what i was going to say is one of the things i think distinguishes brand x perhaps from the american bands is she and this is what this is why i refer to the progressive rock thing you will get this beautiful passages of say string synthesizer coming in and playing these gorgeous kind of chords yeah and that's not something you would really hear on a weather report album or returns forever album to me anyway and there's a lot of that on the record roland string synthesizer when i meant free from yes you're right and i love that there's there's acoustic guitar there's on one track there's a lot of overdubbing i think there's a lot of use of the studio and to me that's why this is borderline progressive
Speaker 3rock when i'm saying making up and going along it almost has that spirit that we're saying you know the late 60s early 70s bands when they were just making music as such they were just all in room together playing with the possibilities of music there's no sense of we're going in to make this type of an album sure
Speaker 2but that's that that's where the jazz kind of the jazz mentality comes in here i suppose and it is you know it is definitely fusion music but i would say for me it's it's progressive jazz there's the fusion i mean just i'm just looking at the wikipedia page listen this is the list of instruments used on the record fender roads acoustic piano mini moog arp odyssey roland string synthesizer clavinet pulser space echo auto harp acoustic guitar electric guitar sitar fender bass marimba drums percussion that is not the list of instruments you would see on an american jazz record that's a list of instruments by a british band that are kind of inspired by the american jazz bands but they're kind of approaching the record almost like a progressive rock band would make a record let's overdub a marimba part here let's have a sitar on this track let's have a beautifully lyrical sort of interlude of string synthesizer but you
Speaker 3feel it's a very creative and fluid process the albums kind of sound like that at that stage yeah they sound like it and it was interesting because they sort of started off didn't they we're going to get signed to ireland i think it's part of the reason why they were working with brian eno that was going to sign them to ireland and their original material i think was much closer to a tighter average white band style funk oh really
Speaker 2i did not know that i mean i don't hear that i mean they've got some great grooves on this record you know but it's funny you know phil collins is just instantly recognizable isn't he yeah in this context uh you couldn't be anyone else and when you put him together with a similarly you could say the same of percy jones the bass player he's he's definitely got a lot of jacko in his playing but there's something very distinctively his own too isn't there he's his kind of um harmonic language is even more unpredictable in a way way there are times when he's using the bass almost like a percussion instrument yeah and i think that was something that mick
Speaker 3obviously took on board later on well i think along with you know weber and um pastorius he is one of the great players and certainly great fretless players and i think his background is is quite unusual i think he was in kind of more conventional mersey bl bands in the 60s i think he actually comes from quite a conventional pop rock background so i'm not quite sure how he developed such a style and and in that way you know he's not your standard session bass player he's not your standard anything and of course they you know they had um i think giblin was superb as well who also worked alongside him on product i think they're both on that album and giblin obviously did a lot of work with uh with john martin as well but yeah jones should be so so much better known i think he's he's definitely
Speaker 2he's an innovator in the use of harmonics on the bass as well which again something mick used to do a lot and sliding harmonics uh which is not something i i've heard a lot outside of his playing and also these things where he would literally pull the strings off the fretboard you know and create these weird percussive almost elastic band like sounds but all kind of integrated into the groove so very eccentric kind of bass lines sometimes yeah and i think that rhythm section which of course brian eno loved so much himself you know on his album film music that album film music do you know that album film music yeah yeah that one that one yeah the film music the film music brian you know the film music brian
Speaker 3he knows the film music produced by lindsey mcfee i remember lindsey
Speaker 2mcfee yeah yeah came out the same time as the clash is london town you can see why you know would have been so attracted to using that that rhythm section it is all right i'm glad you agree with me
Speaker 3i had a train of thought you know that when you get to my train of thought and i went completely blank okay on this train it happens listen we've been talking for six hours about 1977 already and it was about percy jones oh my god it was such an insight were you gonna dance it would have blown your mind it would have been like van morrison's debut album blowing your mind blowing your mind you'd have blown your mind you'd have blown your nose you'd have been dazzled well maybe
Speaker 2if you remember what it is we can come back to it but in the meantime let's just talk about the last couple of entry because we're finally we're
Speaker 3getting to the we're in the home stream we're getting to the home stream we're getting to the home straight now it might have been even about brian eno the film music could have even been
Speaker 2about that okay well if you have any more anecdotes about the film music we'd all love to hear them okay just let's just wrap up with the the we're in the home straight we can see the finishing line now we can see the finishing line 1977 i can hear in my mind i don't know about you what i can hear chariots of fire the theme in my head that's a nice callback to van galis who we talked about earlier yeah there was some there's something earlier when you mentioned oh that's right you kept talking about um that's what you were talking about earlier when you mentioned oh that's right how your son listens to the beatles and craftworks man machine endlessly and endlessly and endlessly and i thought that's really clever because the first track on trans europe express is called europe endless and i thought that was a reference i thought tim's being really clever there were yes of course that was a that was deliberate wasn't it of course it was deliberate yeah this podcast is so layered there are layers there are callbacks there are there are jokes that you have to listen to the whole podcast to hear the punchline because that we just set it's all just one big setup also this year we have an hour by shakti which is john mclaughlin's uh sort of jazz indian fusion project now he wasn't the first person to kind of combine the two things i think there was a british jazz musician in the late 60s called joe harriet who made some very impressive sort of fusions of jazz and indian music but i think the difference here is that john mclaughlin was working exclusively within the context of a band where all the other musicians in the band were genuine indian musicians so this is the third shakti album that came out this year called natural elements i mean what what's your take on the the sound of shakti tim does it work for you
Speaker 3i mean it's very distinctive it's brilliantly executed it wasn't really anything i could listen to in a concentrated way you know i i liked it and that was probably about as enthusiastic as i got you know i can see it's brilliant does it work as a fusion for you the fusion of indian yeah no i think it does work as a fusion for sure i think it's it's uh it is interesting and it is heartfelt and the results are great and i can see how it's a kind of guitar player's paradise in particular you know i mean this was the kind of the first thing
Speaker 2that mclaughlin did after breaking out maha vishnu orchestra so he's definitely trying something different here uh you know to work with musicians having worked with within a band where well famously the maha vishnu orchestra all five members were from different countries weren't they but none of them were indian so he's kind of you know going off and working in within a context of a completely different culture in a way you know oh he's
Speaker 3still questing i mean you know the thing i really like and it's like um you know his work with with santana as well i love the fact that they are reaching for eternity with every guitar solo and there is something in mclaughlin drawing that the spiritual mclaughlin um that i do like you know that whole love devotion surrender attempting to lose
Speaker 2yourself it's that coltrane thing isn't it yeah very yeah i think you're right it is the coltrane for spiritual sort of you know transcendence in a way i mean i you know i think mclaughlin is incredible one of the things that that um is unfortunate in a way is that very often he's sort of uh he's name checked as one of the people that kind of invented the notion of shredding because he was an incredible player that could play very very fast you know there's kind of sheets of sound which again something comes from maybe perhaps a little bit starts with coltrane this idea these very very fast technical runs and you hear that in the maha vishnu record certainly and you hear that here too some of the playing on the shakti albums is ridiculously fast and and the unison stuff he's doing with the percussion players the tabla players it's it's technically it's just off the scale but i think it's a little bit unfair on him because mclaughlin also always even when he was playing fast and he could play beautifully and lyrically and slow as well but when he was playing fast it had a danger and an edge and a visceral quality to it wasn't that smug do you know what i mean i do yeah the the modern generation of shredder
Speaker 3players that smug what you're getting into here is grinning motherfucker territory oh grinning motherfuckers yeah and youtube youtube heroes mclaughlin is clearly coming from a place of investigation yes that's what it's about it's investigation it's expression this isn't somebody who wants to show you how good they are they want to touch the hand of god that is what he's trying to do yeah whereas i think that the grinning motherfucker wants you to praise them he wants you to show
Speaker 2their ability impressed by his ability to play the guitar as if it was an olympic event yeah
Speaker 3it's a bit like wanting your mother to pat you on your head yeah and i don't think mclaughlin wants that i i mclaughlin wants to explode into the cosmos yeah it's a bit like wanting your mother to pat you on your head
Speaker 2yeah you're right mclaughlin is reaching for something uh with with the kind of speedy playing he's reaching for some kind of incendiary uh overwhelming spiritual experience yeah whereas as you say the shredder the most of the modern generation of shred i mean obviously there are a few exceptions you know but but we're talking generally here about the youtube warriors the ones that go on youtube and sort of basically try and dazzle you with their speed who fucking cares go and write some decent music then we'll be impressed you know so shakti definitely has an element of that of that shredding stuff too but it's also very lyrical in places too i quite like it i feel like i've got one record i've got them all yeah and i have got one record now i mentioned it i've got one shakti record and i really like it and i love mclaughlin you know anything mclaughlin does as you say would be worth investigation now talking of the influence of of indian indian music on american jazz uh alice coltrane uh i know i love we we both adore alice coltrane she made a couple of her sort of later 70s albums here which start to flirt a bit more with bringing other styles into the the jazz bubble if you like which is always admirable she signed to warner brothers around this time and made slightly more i feel slightly more a few slightly more compromised records but they're still mad they're still a bit mad but there's also you know again the the appropriation of of certainly a sort of element of hindu spiritualism in the music it becomes so dominant doesn't it it becomes so dominant the titles the imagery the sound the the chanting that she has on on
Speaker 3on the records it's difficult if the music's good enough it doesn't really get in the way for me um and these alice coltrane albums here the late 70s ones when she does sign to the major which is unusual in itself they're good you know they're not weak alice coltrane albums they're consistently good maybe they sound slightly cleaner and there are a few influences that haven't necessarily appeared on earlier albums um but i like them i i'm not sure i'm necessarily aware i almost kind of ignore you know i i erase it from my mind i think it's
Speaker 2very sincere obviously isn't it in the play in the in the case of glocklin and and it's very
Speaker 3important you know this is you know what i as i say that i realize how potentially disrespectful it is in for mclaughlin and coltrane spirituality and their religious beliefs were incredibly important to them and you
Speaker 2can get swept away with that as a listener can't you can kind of get swept away with that i mean i have a it's a very different musical genre but i have a similar experience when i listen to arvo peart's music and he's obviously deeply deeply religious and all of the music is infused with his deep deep faith and belief yeah and you do feel it it's a bit like when you go to a church i mean i'm i'm very much an atheist but i love the feeling that that kind of air that's trapped inside the church feels somehow it's
Speaker 3still incredible i mean i still go to occasional church services while not being a believer because i love the architecture of churches and cathedrals and the sound of a good church organ with choir is still astonishing but also that it's almost
Speaker 2like the air that's inside the church feels slightly different it's slightly different but it's almost like the air that's inside the church feels slightly different it's slightly different but it's almost like the air that's inside the church feels slightly different it's slightly different but it's almost like the air that's inside the church feels slightly different it's slightly different it's a different kind of energy to the air outside so i mean i'm digressing here slightly but this is this is kind of what i mean by it's very easy even if you're not religious you can get swept up in that passion and that spiritualism well the
Speaker 3religions and sorry i was going to say the almost the the pageantry as well and the rituals i think in certain i have that also some of van
Speaker 2morrison's albums that's where you can kind of hear the the passion and spirituality i'm i mean van famously went through about 10 religions across the course of 10 albums but you know i don't doubt for one minute that he wasn't sincere when he was singing about scientology one minute or you know or catholicism the next minute or whatever it was christianity the next week and you can again even if you don't believe you kind of get swept up in it and it feels like there's a different energy to the music and i
Speaker 3think you know again we've mentioned it before but love supreme by coltrane is one of the ultimates in the and i think it is all about well that's the archetype giving yourself i think it's that sense of surrender and i think that's what i'm attracted to like you i'm profoundly skeptical and cynical when it comes to organized religion or even niche religions and cults but i love that sense of almost losing your consciousness in something greater than you
Speaker 2are yeah yes absolutely and if you find that you're not religious you're not religious you're not religious you're not religious you feel that the musician is is kind of attaining that level yeah you definitely do feel it and you respond to it whether you believe or not but and what i also like about the ellis coltrane music at this time particularly is it is jazz abstracting into all sorts of other areas it's like we're not being purist here yeah let's have some gospel yeah let let's have some indian you know musicians come in and play let's have a choir let's have a string arrangement you know all in the kind of nature of jazz music and i think that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's the thing that's barely jazz anymore and probably for that reason was very hard to market i'm sure you know these records alice coltrane records were were pretty much overlooked until yeah relatively recently
Speaker 3but then you wonder how did they get the contracts in the first
Speaker 2place yeah i know and she definitely has carved out a very very unique place for her in in the sort of jazz you know world yeah and
Speaker 3and has as distinctive a voice as john coltrane yes absolutely
Speaker 2is that always a bit of chauvinism perhaps at the time that she was a woman so she couldn't possibly be on the same level i don't know
Speaker 3that it was chauvinism i think that there was always a cult of coltrane i think coltrane was seen as something very special from the 50s onwards so i think that you know a bit like charlie parker i think she you know had she been married to pharaoh sanders i don't think you'd necessarily have had her being dismissed as much and pharaoh sanders work is great yeah there's as well i think coltrane it's a bit like with miles davis yeah these are figures that are not just musicians they are beyond musicians you know django reinhardt in the guitar world think of his impact in the 30s 40s it must have been
Speaker 2hard to be in terms of trying to make a name for yourself and to be considered it must have been hard to be john coltrane's widow uh yes i think that's true and i think
Speaker 3yoko ono has this because again had yoko ono not been married to john lennon yes and she made her 70s albums they'd be cult classics yeah well
Speaker 2they are in my they are now they are not but i think
Speaker 3they even i think she'd have made that without the lennon connection and unfortunately because of the lennon connection there's been a patronizing view of some of her creative
Speaker 2she'd be very respected as a as a as a you know a modern artist you know all those things so yes you're right and in a sense i think you certainly yoko i think has embraced that she embraced the idea that she is john lennon's widow and she will always be john lennon's widow um and to be fair she was she was very passionate in preserving her husband's legacy and she was very passionate in her legacy too yes yeah right tim let's uh a couple of other albums you've got here don cherry's don cherry in here and now and all that do you want to talk about i don't know those records um well
Speaker 3don cherry made some great records in the 70s again he was kind of combining anything free jazz texas soul groove um the ornette coleman one i do know really quite well this is the one of the ones where he's initially experimenting probably with kind of elements of afrobeat and funk so it's one of the more accessible ornette coleman albums um and i think it's an underrated period i've never been that much fun i can see why it's influential i can see why it's good but his very very early 60s work just leaves me cold it's just not something that particularly touches me whereas when he starts to use technology and groove you know you've heard the 80s funk albums that he made and he even works with jerry garcia of the grateful dead on some of his work i actually really like those these kind of impure funk ornette coleman albums and he's doing it in an unusual time you know um whereas a lot of artists from his generation one of the things i didn't like about jazz in the 80s was that you had that kind of winton marsalis influence where it was like in a silent way and bitches brew never happened it was almost like jazz retreated into a kind of formal 50s early 60s style and what i liked is that ornette coleman who could have been one of the grand old men of jazz at that point and performing acoustic jazz which is more fashionable was getting more electronic and more funked up and i remember seeing ornette coleman in the 80s and it was a bit like fella cootie a bit like james brown it was absolutely relentless sounds really good i want
Speaker 2to check this album out actually you okay tim let's draw a line and say that is 1977 in a nutshell i don't know if you can say i don't know if you can use the term in a nutshell after you've just talked about a year for like seven hours or something but in a nutshell that was 1977 folks and our perspective on it tim is it possible for all these albums we've discussed 1977 for you to just land on one as your favorite of the year and the one that you feel has potentially been the most influential going forward from 1977 is it even possible after all these albums we've discussed i'll tell you what you can have you can have as many as you like but obviously within reason yeah well no let's say pick three albums that you would choose to take to a desert island from
Speaker 3this year well it's all about what is ultimately the influence in the future and i think we've said that i feel love the single maybe is the single most influential track from this year in that it influences the disco of the late 70s the electronics of the early 80s the chill out of the 90s and the r&b of the present day the 2020s this is something whose influence has never really diminished so i think that donna summers i feel love has got to be up there it's one of the most influential because one of the most influential tracks from this year is the single most influential track from this year when you actually think of the albums that are seen in retrospect as defining 77 never mind the bollocks yes and so on i don't think they have had much of an influence on music to come particularly i i think pretty standard rock albums in fact the only influence was when i was driving here to see you there was a van and it had in the logo of never mind the bollocks never mind the bifolds try the books now of course for a sex pistols audience it probably now should be never mind the bifocals let's face it so what are you
Speaker 2saying you said more of an influence on advertising on advertising graphic design i think that's a little bit unfair but i will agree with you that i think on balance you would have to say i feel love and probably trans europe express craftwork yeah have had more of a long-term influence on popular music than punk did punk perhaps more in a sort of um an attitude and an approach but musically speaking yes you're right ultimately it was fairly conservative if you took john johnny rotten's voice away you'd have a pretty conservative yeah i mean
Speaker 3as i said i really like public image limited and i really like what the clash became so it's not
Speaker 2talking about we're talking about you know yeah yeah
Speaker 3the 1977 it just you know didn't do it for me then doesn't do it for me now i mean obviously we've missed out pacific ocean blue has been one of the most influential albums of 1977 we gave that a real trash
Speaker 2in the past and i think it's Didn't we? Do we feel a bit guilty about that?
Speaker 3I feel a bit guilty. I feel awful because, you know, You know, one of the reasons for doing the show was to actually give back to music what music had given to me. So it's to express enthusiasm. I try and express my enthusiastic embrace of music rather than my criticism.
Speaker 2It's not nice being negative. But part of being a music nerd is also about being sometimes the sort of person that will stand up and say, you know, the album that everyone else says is amazing and a lost masterpiece. I'm going to be the guy that the emperor's new clothes. I'm going to be the guy who's going to stand up and say the emperor's got no clothes on. I think sometimes that's also part of it, isn't it? I think it's not. It's not a bad record. It's it's a good record. It's just not as great as its reputation would. I think that's kind of what you're saying.
Speaker 3I think what it is that obviously certain albums. I mean, yeah, we were listening to them earlier, you know, something like Pacific Ocean Blue. Bizarrely to us has this reputation amongst the 70 greatest albums. All time or have you. Whereas a Beach Boys album like L.A., the light album is considered one of the monstrosities of Western culture. I'd put that above. Yeah, me too. And an album like Pacific Ocean and an
Speaker 2album like Don Juan's Reckless Daughter by Joni Mitchell, which is really overlooked in her. Is in to me is infinitely superior. Tim, give us a shout out for some of your favourite albums of the year. There are so, so, so many. I'm going to get. Can I guess for you?
Speaker 3Yeah, go on, please. John Martin, One World. That was going to be in my top two or three. Yes. The Bowser. Low. It's really tough between heroes and low.
Speaker 2OK. The Bowser, low and heroes.
Speaker 3Low. Yeah. Low, probably because I think one of the things we didn't really discuss low properly. But low, I think, is one of those albums that sets the template for 80s sound because it has that kind of very early example of overpowering. Over processed, almost gated drums without cymbals. It has that sound that becomes the 80s.
Speaker 2There's so much about it that that was became a template for me. I think one of the reasons we didn't discuss it is because those albums have been pretty well discussed by many other commentators more articulate than us. They're amazing records. And, you know, they they they are so.
Speaker 3I mean, with heroes, one of the things I love is that is the Adam and Joe cartoon. If you've seen this. Oh, yeah, the Tony Visconti. And I love this because Tony Visconti. Tony Visconti is the producer, but Brian Eno gets the credit for being a producer. He's like, hello, Tony Visconti, producer. Yeah. Which I quite like. I think they're both phenomenal albums. And yes, probably low has the edge. So, yeah, one world and low. I'm going to guess another one. The Ham Over. I think that was an album that was incredibly important to me for a very long time. It's less important to me now, though. I'm still drawn to things. You know, on Tuesday, she used to do yoga and so on. I still think it's what is such an intensely personal work as well. It's the ham. So in some ways, that might be the most important album to be, but not necessarily my personal favourite.
Speaker 2Maybe you just overdosed on it.
Speaker 3I think you're right. Yeah, I think this is part of the problem. I think when you overdose on music during certain periods in your life, you almost feel you have to outgrow them because the influence is so strong. And I certainly know that, you know, when I first started off singing. And it's very odd, given how I sing and have done ever since No Man, you know, Hamel and his intensity and his rage was a very big influence.
Speaker 2You definitely had a strong element of that when I first met you.
Speaker 3Yeah. And I think this is the thing that basically you have to outgrow something that has such a strong influence on you. But it's very difficult because, you know, going for the one, my almost equal favourite Yes album, lovely record. Don Juan would probably be in my top three. Number four, I think that is a glorious record. Don Juan's record is still to this day.
Speaker 2So I'm going to go. I think we agree on the most influential. I'm going to go with I Feel Love and the Craftwork album is most influential in the long term. My favourite records, Pink Floyd, Fanboy, Gotta Say Animals is one of my top three Floyd albums. It's a masterpiece. Oh, damn it.
Speaker 3No, I love that.
Speaker 2Love it. Electric Light Orchestra is out of the blue. What a stunning double album. Chock-a-block with beautifully symphonic pop. Godly and Cream's Consequences, The Folly. I absolutely adore it. And, you know, part of it, of course, is the fact that you become an evangelist for an album that a lot of people just think is a piece of junk. Yeah. It's what you were saying earlier, you know, about the kind of inverse in the way of the Dennis Wilson album. You know, you feel like you have to be the person to stand up and give the opposite perspective. You know, a lot of people say Consequences. I think it's a work of mad genius and I will defend it until kingdom come.
Speaker 3I completely agree.
Speaker 2Yeah. Good. Good.
Speaker 3Yeah. No, Animals, I'd certainly have to put in my top. At the moment, I've got about 10 albums in my top three of 1977.
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, I love One World. Roy Harper's album, Bullying the Ming Vals from this year. I love that record. Saturday Night Fever soundtrack, I have to, you know, I grew up hearing it over and over again. My mum playing it all the time. I still think it's got some of the greatest pop music ever made on it. Mostly the Bee Gees tracks. Just remarkable record. ABBA's the album. Donna Summer's the album. Once Upon a Time. There's so many, isn't there? If I had to pick just one, I probably would end up taking the Godley and Cream because it's a long album and it's got the Peter Cook sketches on it, which I, you know, I never get tired of hearing those things. And it's got so much detail in it that I think you can never get bored listening to it because you will always hear something new every time.
Speaker 3I think if I had to choose one, maybe I'd go for One World because there's a great variety in it. It's not quite got the lyrical depth, I think, but for Small Hours alone, which I could listen
Speaker 2to endlessly. If Small Hours took up the whole of a side of a record, I would be very happy. If it took up a whole record, I could just listen to Small Hours for 40 minutes. It would probably be one of my favourite albums of all time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, great. OK, Tim, I think finally we'll put the full stop there on 1977. What an absolute epic that was. Four episodes. We've been talking for eight years. By the time the listeners hear it, that might have been edited down a fair bit. Although we're going to try something a bit different here. We're going to try not to edit so much, aren't we, this time around? Famous last words and all that.
Speaker 3Yeah. I mean, I think we should edit it into eight episodes, have an entire series of them.
Speaker 2I think we should just edit out all the mistakes you made and just present them. Separate episode. Just Tim's schoolboy errors. Bonus Patreon feature.
Speaker 3I had driven a couple of hours and then I was doing the same thing.
Speaker 2This podcast. You've had a good night's sleep tonight. I was exhausted. That was the excuse. London Town today? It is the excuse. What's the excuse for London Town? The Clash's album, London Town. There's no excuse for that. You've had a good night's sleep. Well, it could be the
Speaker 3beginnings of senility.
Speaker 2What I would say is people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I'm quite capable of making terrible, terrible schoolboy errors. What was my one? The film music.
Speaker 3Well, one of them. Well, that wasn't really. Brian, you know, the film music.
Speaker 2No, that wasn't really an error. What I was trying to say there. The thing was, the album that Brian made of his film music. That's what I was trying to say. The album. Brian Eno.
Speaker 3The film music.
Speaker 2No, I wasn't. I wasn't trying to say that.
Speaker 3And you talked about Merillion Seconds Out as well. You made that terrible.
Speaker 2What are you talking about? You're just making stuff up now. You're just making it up. Well, I liked it when you were talking about Radiohead in another episode. You were referring to Tim York and Jimmy Greenwood. You're just making it up now. You're just trying to make me look bad because you've. Embarrassed yourself with your schoolboy errors. Anyway, I'm quite capable of making my own schoolboy errors. Thank you very much. In fact, isn't there a few that we've let out into the world and people have picked up on them? Mostly yours. Mostly mine, yeah. There was something I did, wasn't there? And somebody picked up on it. And you hadn't spotted it either. And it went out with this terrible schoolboy error. And I forget what it was now. It's been a long time since we've been doing this. And as you say, senility is setting in. Anyway, for goodness sake, let's shut this down. 1977, we will be back with another year soon. I hope you've enjoyed 1977. Thank you very much for listening. We'll see you again soon. Goodbye from me and goodbye from Tim. Bye-bye. Too Ronnie sign-off, isn't it? It is. We'll
Speaker 4see you next time. partner today and see if Blinds.com is right for you. Visit Blinds.com now to save up to 50% off site-wide during our annual fall blowout sale.
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