#306 How to start a portfolio career

[Music] Hi I'm Sarah and I'm Helen and this is a Squiggly Careers podcast where every week we share ideas for action and tools to try out that we hope will help you and pretty much always us to navigate our Squiggly careers with a bit more confidence clarity and control. And this week we are talking about how to have a portfolio career which is a topic inspired by some work we're doing with the Department of Education all around portfolio careers and we went out to our community on Instagram and we said would you like us to do a podcast topic on this a bit more broadly and pretty much everyone I think it might have been 100% yes and we asked what the questions people had were and some of it was really basic it was like what is a portfolio career and some of it was like how do I talk about this with my manager and how do I balance like incomes and all that kind of stuff so today we're going to get really really practical about portfolio careers starting with what this actually means and so I think this is actually a really good question from our community because I think portfolio careers used to mean when you're very senior you stop doing and spending all of your time on one job and you start spending your time on a number of jobs at the same time and it felt like that was something almost like you transitioned to and it became almost a career stage for certain people usually at certain points in the career ladder so I think one of the things that we've got to do with this idea portfolio careers is sort of unlearn that that's what a portfolio career looks like and in its simplest definition I think it's probably how are you spending the hours that you work every week and I think the difference between almost like a singular career and a portfolio career is you're doing one thing all of that time or are you doing multiple things during that time or would you like to be doing multiple things during that time so to build on Sarah's point I think that that traditional view is that maybe you do like three days a week in one job and then you do two days in another so you're making up like a five day working week but I don't think that people think about like this traditional five day working week now and they don't think about nine to five either so I think actually this could extend into your evenings maybe it could be a mixture of different things it could be doing a bit of like part-time work and then maybe some freelancing there's essentially a lot of flexibility in a portfolio career to manage your work in a way that is sort of as individual as you are I think really it's just not about solely depending on your income and your development on one company and one role I think that's the gist of it and what's really interesting I was rereading an article by a lady called April Reign and I'd actually I'd read it before because very kindly she references quickly careers in this HBR article and one of the things that she was talking about is career portfolios within the same organisation you might still be spending all of your time in one company during a week but do you do some different things during that week or as we would sometimes describe it maybe transferring your talent or squiggle and stay so that article is worth a read because she talks about encouraging organisations to stop offering career ladders and start offering career portfolios and I think there's a lot of overlap in some of the things that we definitely think about and consider and some of her perspectives and some of the things that she's recommending that we could experiment with or try out. I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about it in a company so we often in our sessions we talk about career possibilities and it's about having these multiple moves you can make the different directions you can develop in but if you thought in companies about having portfolio careers rather than just a single career path I think that would open it up much more like in one company what's your portfolio career look like you could just have a really interesting conversation about that I think. So to make this really personal in terms of our experience of portfolio careers we both have portfolio careers today that look and feel a bit different that we'll talk about but I think I first started having what we would consider now a portfolio career when I worked a four day week at Sainsbury so I stopped working five days at one place and at that point I then spent one day a week doing something different and actually we'll come back to it I didn't really have a brilliant definition of what doing something different looked and felt like it didn't have the clarity of what I'm spending one day a week building a business or I'm spending one day a week like launching a new idea it was almost the space and back to Helen's point about freedom and flexibility just to do something different and we'll talk about that obviously has some really big considerations in terms of how do you put boundaries in place to do that financially what that looks like but that was sort of my first experience of a four day week yeah I now work a five day week for amazing if so on sort of paper all of my working week is amazing if but I do also co-chair a advisory board for the Mayor of London about affordable and accessible workspace so almost integrated into my role at amazing if it's co-chairing something that is very different to my day-to-day so that's sort of almost within my working week rather than separate and I guess given it's our company we have the ability to design that and make that work without having to think oh I need to then change my days from five days to four and a half days to accommodate that I think I had a slightly flawed portfolio career when I was at Microsoft I think it's important to talk about this because we are going to talk about some practical ways that you can have an effective portfolio career but I think my ineffective way of managing it was when I was at Microsoft and I knew I wanted to do different things and I wanted to develop in different directions but I think I was sort of slightly conflicted in my career because I had this like slightly high achieving corporate thing that was taken up five days a week and then I was working on amazing if and I was trying to navigate myself to a different future and then I remember I was also starting to work for Hock's Be Collective to develop a slightly different proposition for them about future proofing so at the same time I was doing a five day a week job and working on our things which at the time are like writing a book and the podcast and sort of a few sessions we were using our holiday for and then sort of trying to create myself some different opportunities Hock's Be and the reason I say it was slightly flawed was because I think what I should probably have done in hindsight so wonderful thing is talked to Microsoft about how I could have managed the mix a bit more but I didn't because I don't think I was confident enough to because I was a bit worried about what they would think or what they would say or they would compromise my ambitions all that kind of like fear and so all I did was create a bit of sort of portfolio pressure by trying to do all these things that once which I think is what we're really trying to avoid it actually that would have been an amazing mix for me to have had like some corporate stuff like working on our business and then getting the opportunity to put my ideas into something someone else wanted to do would have been an amazing mix but I probably compromised myself in order to do that and I don't think that's what we're suggesting. So some of the benefits of this portfolio approach to your squiggly career and I think it is important to say it's not for everyone and it's not something you have to do or something you think you should do as part of a squiggly career it's definitely a choice and it might be a choice you make for a bit and then you come back to and then you change along the way so like you know you might listen to this podcast today and think that's not for me and I think that's a really good outcome because you know you're increasing your clarity around your career I think it works probably for both Helen and I because one of my values is variety and one of Helen's values is freedom and I think given those you know you only have three or four core values given both of those words make it into those three or four things that are most important to us you start to see why this kind of sense of portfolioness in our working week feels important. So some of the things some of the good things about portfolio careers you definitely get the opportunity to stretch your strengths in different ways in different situations you use your strengths with new people in a new context in a new environment you might increase your income I think this depends a bit on what you're doing and why you're doing it clearly if you're volunteering for something that tends to not be paid or perhaps not particularly well paid you might get to cover your costs but if you were thinking more about doing two part-time roles for example and we recently have had quite a few people apply to work with us on some different roles where they are doing multiple part-time roles obviously that mix that financial mix sort of works for them it definitely increases your career resilience so you know often people talk about employability and upskilling and re-skilling and they can feel like quite vague words I think in terms of okay so what does that mean but I think the more that we are adaptable and broad in our experiences and our skillset the more we're sort of able to squiggle with success so when maybe uncertainty and change comes our way we hadn't anticipated I do think sometimes a portfolio career can put you in a position where in lots of ways you've you've kind of spread spread your risk a little bit more rather than put you know all of your energy and efforts into one thing and it's just interesting like reflecting a little bit on this because I'm so attracted to portfolio careers because of all the variety that you get and the different things that you get to work on and I remember when I was like working on amazing if like full-time early days which like 2018 my husband said to me he was like there's no way this is going to keep you interested enough like one thing is not going to be enough and because I for quite a while I've done like different things and I think that I now don't seek I mean I do work for charity but I don't seek so much of a portfolio career because I have so much variety in what we do from from writing to podcasting to the work we do a club there's just so many different things that we do so I get a lot of the variety that I need but for me before that maybe when I felt I loved what I did in corporate life [BLANK_AUDIO] Sometimes it was a bit samey, like my mom, they felt like a Wednesday. It was like similar meetings with similar people debating similar things and sending similar emails at similar times in the evening. That kind of a vibe. And actually the different things I did introduced some variety into my role. So I do think it, portfolio careers do give you that variety. And it's not like you're making a career commitment forever. It might just be something that works for you right now. So, all these titles and labels that we apply, whether you're working as a freelance or you're having a portfolio career, you're working full time. You don't have to fix in any of this stuff forever. I just think it gives you flexibility to do something different for your development. And that's all this is. It's a different option for you and different opportunity. And one of the things that she, the April says in that article that we recommend you have a read of, she talks about it as portfolios about curating a portfolio of skills and services and future proofing a career. It's about intentionally creating and curating a career that changes and evolves over time. So I think you start to see lots of those similar kind of threads and themes. And one of the things I would say is before we get into the kind of practical why what's and how's of portfolio careers is if you're unsure, you do learn a lot from the process of exploring a portfolio career. So often that sort of sense of just experimenting with it or making sure, you know, if you're in that position of, I don't know what I don't know, even maybe applying or having some of the conversations that we're going to talk about can be really useful. It could really help you to figure out that it's not for you. You might get even more excited. And I've applied for a few portfolio roles or a few roles that would kind of add to what I do at the moment that I haven't been successful in, you know, the roles that you apply for. And I don't regret any of those, I think, well, I made some new connections. It gave me the opportunity to think about what career skills and transferable talents I've got, I actually enjoy the process of thinking, well, how else and who else could I be useful for almost whether then you end up quite doing that thing or not. I think you do learn a lot along the way because typically when you're thinking about portfolio, you are having to put yourself in different places, you're walking in different shoes, you're spending time with very different people. So I think it just challenges you in a way that is very different Helen's point in terms of the day to dayness that we all get quite used to and often feels most comfortable for us. And I think that links back really nicely to the Department of Education Research that they've just done, which says that half of adults in England would consider developing a portfolio career, but for 45% of people confidence is a bit of a barrier. So what Sarah was talking about there was almost don't always think about action, like prioritise curiosity first, like what could this look like? Who could you talk to? You're not necessarily making a commitment, you're just exploring the opportunity and that's very much what we're trying to help you to do here. So we split the podcast now into the why, the what and the how. So for the why, there are some coach yourself questions that we think will support your self-awareness about whether a portfolio career is right for you right now. And I think the right now is important because just because you don't want to do it today, or you might think you'd like to do it today, but there are some other factors that are stopping you or getting in your way. This doesn't mean you couldn't rediscover this or come back to this in a year's time or in 18 months time. So I don't think this is the kind of hard and fast once you've made a decision, you've got to stick with it. I think you can absolutely reserve the right to change your mind. But this might just help you to get started. So five coach yourself questions for you. So question one, if I was describing my perfect portfolio career, what would an average week look like? Question two, what would I gain from a portfolio career? Question three, what would I be giving up or compromising on if I had a portfolio career? Question four, who already has a portfolio career that I admire and could learn from? Question five, how does a portfolio career fit with my strengths and values? So moving on from the why we need to get into the what? And I guess the why is all about the insights into why this might be a good thing for you or not to be honest, you might come out of that and go, this doesn't work for me and that's fine too. But let's imagine it does. Maybe you're like, yes, I think this could be good. I think it would fit with my strengths and values and there's lots of things that I could gain from doing this. If you get into the what now and the implications, it's really important to personalise your portfolio career. I think that's one of the big benefits is that your portfolio career probably doesn't look like anybody else's because of the mix that you're managing. So a few things for you to think about in sort of plotting your portfolio career. Number one, the talents you could transfer. So for example, I would think about one of my talents that I could transfer is my ability to sort of catalyze an idea that I can move things forward fast and I can transfer that to whether I was working in a startup or a corporate. The second thing is who you know that could help you like plot those people out. There are certain people I think that are great at making introductions that know a lot of people that might exist in worlds that you're not. They could be really, really useful for you managing your portfolio. Three is the mix that might work for you. There definitely isn't one size fits all. So you could do what Sarah did like four days in a more corporate role. She did insane sprees and one day on your own thing. You could do a three in a two, you could work in a day in the evening. I think try to identify as many variations as you can because that means you'll be more open to what this could look like for you. And then number four when you're plotting your portfolios is just to write down the constraints that you're working with. That might be income. You might have a base level of income that everything that you sort of plot together needs to work towards or it could be a location. It might be timings. There might be certain times of the day that you need to work within. But being really clear about your constraints means you don't compromise them, which I think is something that I got wrong when I did this myself. Yeah, and for me, we mentioned money a few times and I think money matters for all of us. I remember when I was working out the four day week with Sainsport is, you know, I did it in a very straightforward, took a 20% pay cut way, but I had figured out, as almost like as part of my portfolio plotting, I had figured out at that time I could afford to do that. And also I liked the cleanness and the boundaries that came with that because I think one of the challenges with portfolios is, you know, how do you create, you know, boundaries are hard for all of us already. And then you're sort of almost adding something additional that probably makes boundaries even harder. People often ask me about that. They're like, oh, did you not end up working on that extra day? And I think almost because I was like, funnily enough, you know, we work in evenings and you think, obviously you're not getting paid for that and you never really questioned that. And when you've got a day where you're not getting paid for it, I was like, oh no, I don't, I don't get paid for that. You are so good at that generally though. Like writing a book, you don't let other things creep in, whereas I'm rubbish at it. So maybe there is another thing about like your working preference and profile. Like you are, I think you're so good at being focused and boundaries that I think that is a strength that plays into a portfolio career. And if you're someone like me that just isn't, I think you just have to recognise that because it might be a bit hard of you to manage because remember when you did that and then not long after, I did like, compressed hours. I do really, really do. And it was a disolce. So, all I did was like apologise to everybody because I felt like I wasn't doing anything like in the way I wanted it to do. And so, yeah, I do think it's a bit of a, what is your general working preference? If you can be boundaries about how you're working, I think this could be a really good fit for you. If you find that really hard, it doesn't mean it won't work, but that might need to be an area of something that you to work on. And also, who are you surrounded by because I like to think I can, I take a bit of credit for doing a good job at that time of having good boundaries. And as you said, it is something that does come naturally to me, but I also worked for a brilliant boss. I was surrounded by a really strong team in an organisation I really enjoyed working in. And so, I can imagine it feels very different. I didn't experience people then putting me under pressure to work on the day that I didn't work. And actually that day changed over time because I did four day weeks in two different companies. But I actually, in either of those companies, there was never any expectation of, you know, that, oh, could you just come to this meeting or can you just reply to these emails? Now, some of that is a bit about you. And if you do get asked those questions, how you respond. But I think if you're, if you find that's happening repeatedly, that's really hard for you then, isn't it? Or, you know, having to say, no, a lot. So I am also very grateful for both of the companies that share work with me when I did do four day weeks. They really respected almost that choice, that choice for me to have a portfolio career. So we're going to move on now to the how. So perhaps you listen and you think, yes, this does sound like something I would like to discover and explore a bit further. So we need to get practical. And so number one is about starting where you are. What do you want to move from and to? You don't have to rip up everything you've done so far and start from scratch. In fact, starting from where you are often reduces the risk a little bit. So for example, if I go back to what I wish I'd done in hindsight when I was at Microsoft, it probably would have been better for me to find the flexibility in the role that I was already doing. So could I do that in four days or three days, for example, to create the space to do something else? And what that does mean is that it might be more of a slow pivot because you're probably going to have to influence in people internally about the job that you're doing. But there's sort of like a security in the slowness to you get more time to explain. and it doesn't necessarily feel like you're leaping into something completely unnew. So I would say rather than completely jumping into two or three different roles, start with where you are, find the flex that might exist today. And when you're doing that as well, do the maths a bit that Sarah mentioned. Just work out what could you compromise on in terms of the money that comes in? Like where is your baseline? Because that can give you a little bit more flexibility as well. So you know, for example, when I was thinking about Microsoft, I looked at could I take a quarter of my salary so that I could do some different things and what would that mean? I was compromising in my life because sometimes in order to create your initial flexibility, I do think you need to make some choices along the way, but I'm so grateful for the choices that I made as a resort of doing that. And I do think I'm seeing people be more creative as well about what that portfolio-ness looks like. I know four day weeks are talked about a lot and they're kind of popular in the press. People write about them a lot because there's lots of experiments happening about four day weeks. But maybe it's a nine day fortnight. I actually know quite a lot of people who've done very successful nine day fortnight. So you work five and then a four. I've known quite a few people who maybe because they were studying for something or they just got something I wanted to spend some time on. It was either half a day a week or it was one day a month. And so you know, sometimes we anchor ourselves in what we can see elsewhere and what maybe other people do. I would really recommend sort of almost like starting with that blank piece of paper and kind of thinking in your dreams scenario. Like what are the changes? Because usually there's some changes about time and money that you need to consider here. What are the time and money changes that you feel like would help you to be at your best? Because when I first did that four day week, which actually is, you know, nearly 10 years ago, I think now nobody else really did it. It was very unusual. And I was just sort of creating it from scratch, just feeling like that was the best option for me. So I think don't feel afraid to create something that no one has done before. To Helen's point, it might take a bit longer. You might have to do a bit more persuading, but just because it hasn't been done before, doesn't mean that you couldn't be the first one. The second how is all about building your brand. And the reason that you want to do this is because it acts as a bit of a pull for your portfolio possibilities. So this is where you think about what is it you want to be known for regardless of what you're working on, a way you're working, like the skills, the strengths, the talents that you want to be known for. And then really thinking about how do you make that stand out? Now that could be on the platforms that people might see or engage with you. So like on LinkedIn, for example, if you want to be known for, I don't know, creativity, for example, what are you putting out regularly on a platform like LinkedIn, where people see your creativity and they associate you with it. Or I have people that I used to work with years ago, a lady called Kate Ainsker, if I want to show a listen to this, I used to work with her in innovation at Eon, like gosh, like 13, 14 years ago. And she will still relatively regularly put on LinkedIn things about innovation. And so I associate her with that skill now because I mean, I did then, but I do now, because it's sort of years on because she still consistently talks about it as part of her brand, but it could be platforms, it could be projects like what are the projects that you might be working consistently on that really help you to share it with those strengths. It can also be people when you're thinking about your brand, thinking about the people that you stand with, not just what makes you stand out, but who do you stand with? What communities are you part of that kind of reinforced that perception of your brand? And I think one of the things that's really important to practice as part of kind of pulling these portfolio possibilities towards you is sort of sharing your story of what you'd like to do and why. So I've got some brilliant mentors along the way who've always really helped me when I've thought about portfolio opportunities, but to help them to help you, I think you have to be specific about first of all sort of sharing a bit maybe about your squiggly story so far, like sort of how you've got to where you've got to. And that hopefully is sort of highlighting or shining a bit of spotlight on some of those strengths, some of those things you want to be known for that Helen talked about, some of those transferable talents. And then being able to connect the dots to, and then why is this thing interesting for you? I think especially if it is something different to where you are, people need sometimes a bit of help, I think, with that connecting the dots. It might be really clear to you, but I think don't assume other people know that you would love to volunteer for that thing or you'd really like to get involved in that project for a half a day a week if you could do that and do a bit less of your day job. We have to almost practise, I think, being really explicit, which I think can feel uncomfortable because none of us like to do kind of weird sentences where we're saying the things I am greater are, and that is because, because that just sounds really formal and inauthentic, we're never going to do it. But I think if you can think about some examples of things you've really enjoyed so far or maybe some skills you want to rediscover and just kind of consider how are you sharing what it is that you would like to do in your portfolio career because I remember a few people asking me a question about why I wanted to do something and not really having a good answer and then actually really thinking about that a bit more deeply. For example, a few of the skills that I had when I was in more of my corporate career, I didn't want to lose those skills. So one of things that I am good at and really enjoy is facilitating a group of people who are all more expert than me, basically built a career on it for quite a long time, being the generalist in the room. I'm very happy not being the person who knows the most, and I'm comfortable and confident in those situations. I really enjoy sharing and making sure that everybody gets heard and making sure people contribute and making sure we've got clear actions, almost steering people through a conversation. And I don't use that skill in the same way anymore in amazing if there's less need for it with different kinds of people doing very different kinds of work. As I wanted to look for my portfolio career alongside amazing if, where I spent most of my time was thinking, okay, how can I chair or contribute to a board using some of those leadership conversation skills? Because I don't want to lose them. There's something I enjoy, there's something I'm good at and I consider see they're not part of my day today. And it's why I love co-chairing. So I co-chair the board that I'm part of. And that works brilliantly for me because I think I bring lots of those behaviours about hopefully making sure people all feel like they're contributing, making sure we have got clear actions. And my co-chairs are real experts. So between is I hope we're a really good team. And actually when I've looked at other volunteer roles or maybe other trustee roles, I'm often I often am attracted to more the chairing of those groups because I can sort of see my transferable talents when they talk about what they're looking for. Whereas there might be some other ones that I think, oh I don't think I'll be as useful there. I don't think I'll have as much value to add. So I think just thinking about, you know, what is your story in terms of why you do what you do today and what is your story in terms of why you want to do more of one thing and maybe a bit less of something else? I think there's an interesting insight in there as well, which is that it's taken Sarah quite a while to come to those insights about what it is that she enjoys doing and what she wants to be known for as sort of part of her building her brand. So the portfolio career is something you're intrigued by but it doesn't feel relevant for you right now. You can still gather a lot of that insight around what is it that I really enjoy and when I am ready for it, what are the things I'd really like to be known for? Because that's what this is all about. That's using that insight to make these decisions about your development. So the third one is about planning your pattern. Won't talk about this too long because I think we've referenced it quite a lot mainly for the mistakes that I made and the things that started well. But you've got to work out what work pattern works for you. What does that mix look like? And then once you've defined what that looks like, is it is about being boundaries about it? And I think that is partly in terms of what you communicate to other people, but I think it's partly in terms of what you manage yourself. And you know, personally, I think Sarah is very good at both communicating her boundaries to other people. Like this is when I'm doing this, this is what I'm doing and I won't be doing that at that time. But also then staying true to that. Whereas I can, I'm definitely not as clear as communicating to Sarah. Get a little bit woolly. I sort of say, oh, I'm sort of not doing that that day. But if you want to get in touch, you can. But then I'm also very woolly. Then I sort of get involved in different things. Sarah, for me, is like my best practice in terms of boundaries. And I think it is really important because you want to avoid what happened to me, which is being overstretched, which doesn't really work for anyone. I think when you're managing a portfolio career, you are working for more people and you're working with more people. So you overstretching yourself not only doesn't work for you, it probably doesn't work for the other people that you're trying to do this with too. So I think it is really important that you plan that working pattern. Yeah, I think it is worth acknowledging that this is not about doing more. This is about probably doing things differently. So, you know, some, and I do think I have been guilty of this in the past. You know, we sort of lay it on. You lay another thing that you're volunteering for. Another thing that you say yes to and the sort of it's more and more and more. And that is where you do get to you burn out. You've said yes to too much. And there was probably a point in my career where I could say yes a lot. And I'd got a lot less constraints. Certainly, you know, like family, a lot less family constraints and commitments. Whereas I think over time I did start to realise that I'm at my best when I have variety. But equally that doesn't mean you just sort of say yes to everything. Because otherwise you do end up just you just work more, you work more days and your nights and your weekends work. You know, that whole thing about you've got to be really careful that work isn't all of who you are. So I think that that is quite something to be aware of. This is not about if you are going to do this try and avoid that whole, well it's got to take me more hours, try and challenge yourself to sort of go, no this is about the spending the hours that I have at work in a new way. And the fourth and final idea here which is all around the how is about balancing the risk in your portfolio career versus the reliability. So it is quite useful to pick one role that might feel a bit more stable, maybe in terms of your income or familiarity or the skills that you know you can use on a day-state basis. And then that gives you the space to stretch yourself in a different way with a different opportunity. And an example of this would be the work we're doing with the Department of Education which is where they're really talking about mixing, working in industry for some of your working week and then teaching in further education for the rest of your working week. And so the industry thing probably feels quite familiar, that's the thing that feels maybe stable and something you're confident in. And perhaps teaching in further education feels a bit different though they have got loads of support. Genuinely if that is something you're interested in they've got loads of support will put all the links for it. You can talk to an advisor, you can find out what you can do next is actually a very good way of starting with a portfolio career. But regardless of whether it's something like that or something different is this idea of sort of balancing something that feels familiar and feels quite stable with the space to maybe do something a bit different than what you might already be doing. Yeah and I've actually done this, I was just thinking as you were describing that, I perhaps don't give myself credit for this being part of my portfolio career because it perhaps feels too ad hoc rather than intentional but I think it could move from ad hoc to intentional is that I have done some teaching back at Warwick University where I studied for my MBA with current MBA students. I think it's just because I perhaps don't think of it or describe it as teaching because essentially I go in and talk about amazing if and the students will get the opportunity to critique it. They basically sit there and think about everything they've learnt and then ask me questions and we're sort of like a case study that they use but also I do talk about careers and career development and I've done different panels on starting companies. So various things that actually when listening to you then I was thinking, oh actually I've sort of dabbled in that area which is not a bad place to start. Do you sort of thinking do I enjoy that? Does that feel like something I'd want to be more permanent part of my portfolio career? So actually I think this idea of like trying some stuff out and just experimenting with it with an idea to thinking would I like to do that more frequently because actually that is one of the reasons that I have said yes to that because that's not something most of the time that we're getting necessarily getting paid for. So I am making a sort of time trade off decision and thinking, or in the future I can imagine I would enjoy doing more of something that looks a bit like this as part of my portfolio. So let's just give it in a try in a sort of very, you know, it's sort of low commitment way. I don't think that can be a really good way to get started as well. So let's just summarize those four hours for you. So number one was start with where you are. Number two was build your brand. Number three was plan your pattern and number four was balance risk versus reliability. And we'll summarize all of that and the different ideas of actions in this week's pod sheet, which you can get from pod mail. Just sign up to that as an email you get every week on a Tuesday, which has all the links to all the resources. Or if you do not need another email in your life, just go to our website. It is amazing if calm. If you go to the podcast page, you click on this podcast about portfolio careers, you will find all the resources there. So as always, thank you so much for listening. We hope you found that useful.