300 Episodes In: Why Feedback Is So Hard (300)

Oftentimes when we're upset, our brain goes to injustice. This isn't fair, this isn't right. Or I don't deserve to complain because this person does so much. So it's all about justice, what's fair and what's not fair. Relationships are not based on fairness ever. Fairness doesn't work. It's what feeling matters. And so if I come to you with my feeling, it doesn't matter if it's fair or not. Maybe you've been on time 10 times and I'm saying this one time and you're like, there's not fair, I'm always on time. Well, I'm having anxiety about whatever this event is that I want to be on time for. And you pointing out the fairness or unfairness is probably not going to help our situation for me approaching you with fairness. This is unfair. I've said 10 times. If I'm approaching you with fairness, I'm already activated. And I really, really want to emphasize that point because if we're in fair, right, wrong, we are probably not in our most regulated place, no matter which side of the equation giving or receiving. - Welcome to Therapist Uncensored. Building on decades of professional experience, this podcast tackles neurobiology, modern attachment, and more in an honest way that's helpful in healing humans. Your session begins now with Dr. Ann Kelly in Sumeriat. (upbeat music) - Hey you guys, why we know relationships are wonderful, they are also really hard. Many of us believe that they shouldn't be, that if we have good connection and good communication, things will just go smoothly, but it's really that belief that can make us feel stubborn and even more hopeless. So relationships take work. It does for soon eye, we can make it look easy, it's not. And one of the ways is because many of us, we differ. We differ in what activates us, what makes us feel threat, the expectation and it's these differences that are held in our body, not our thoughts, and they influence how we talk, how we love, how we fight. So holding that belief, if ye or she, or they could just understand me, if they love me, they do something different, is not really true. And we're talking about relationships with your partner, your teenager, your mother-in-law. So soon I've created an online course that can help you understand yourself and those you love in a different way. This is not just for therapists, it's for everyone. Although the good news is if you're therapist, you can get CEs along the way, and all of you can use the visuals and the worksheets individually, or you can even use them in your own private practice. So while the course is based on our book, Secure Relating, holding your own in insecure world, it is definitely not a replication of the book. We talked directly to you. You learn how to understand where deeply your attachment, those you love, the neuroscience behind it, and how to build secure types of connections right now in your everyday relationships. Rather than changing one another, you'll can shift together in very important ways. It's very powerful, we're getting great reviews. Check it out. It's at therapistuncensored.com/bas. therapistuncensored.com/bas. The BAS stands for Beyond Attachment Styles, the science of growing secure adult relationships. And by the way, the cost of the course is about the amount of one individual therapy session, and yet you get hours and hours and hours of what we think is extremely valuable information. So check it out. Hey everybody, welcome back. Super excited that Ananiyre actually recording together. I know, I think we say that every time now, though when we record. Well, it's because we barely know it every day. Well, it's coming, we never do it. So it's a great thing. But this is such a great example for what we decided to talk about under 300 episodes. I love it because you're saying, "Cuz we never do it." And I'm like, "Yes, we do." (laughs) Sorry. Oh, that's a really good launch. So let's come back to that. If that's okay. But first of all, can we just celebrate 300 episodes, published, produced, yay. That is a lot of episodes. I know we just not too long ago did our 10-year anniversary. So these things are coinciding, but 300 episodes, it was even, our production manager, Catherine's like, "Wait, you guys, you don't gotta get on and talk about that." I'm like, "That's a great idea." Yeah, I know, it's true. A lot of changes, if you are interested in other reflections about our 10-year, so podcasting, will link the episode that An's talking about, at the beginning of the year, where we really took some time to reflect over the 10-year, and some pretty big changes that have happened for us over that time, including what we're interested in reporting, talking about, exploring on the podcast. And we kind of did a similar thing where we were like, "Okay, what's, if we really are honest and we really break it down, like what would be something meaningful to deliver to our audience that is really, really hard?" And then that brings us right back to the beginning when I said, "We never do this." And you said, "Yes, we do." (laughs) I doubt it. Yeah, 'cause what do things we're saying? People, it's not uncommon for people to ask us, like, "How do you work together and write a book together and live together?" And, "How do I do it?" Now we've been doing it for 300 episodes. And I would say, "It's been amazing and it's been hard." Like, it's both. And one of the things that hard, we have to give each other, talk about, have feedback, see things differently, and learn how to talk through that. Totally. And that's why that we wanted to dig in today about what we've learned, what we're still trying to learn about giving and receiving feedback, 'cause those are two different skills. And they're both really difficult. Well, the giving feedback isn't difficult if we do it poorly. It's very easy. We just assume the other person's ready to listen and we just say all of our thoughts. And, well, that's not always true or? Or, we look at myself and we avoid and then make up bigger things in our heads. Oh my gosh. That's true. Totally. So we can see. I can't talk to her. Yeah. We could do the avoiding. You're the, I can't talk to her. And I'm the, we must talk about everything. Yeah, so we've learned a lot of these, in our relationship over the decades and parenting and with clients and certainly on this podcast. So expert at receiving feedback and giving feedback. What have you learned? And I'm saying this in just about myself that I can learn these things and forget them before they've even left my mouth. So, but this is our journey and we're working to get better and better and better at both giving and receiving feedback. So why don't we go back to that opening moment when I said we never do this anymore. And you said, yes, we do. 'Cause you found that interesting. So tell us Anne. Take us to that moment. Well, you said, what are the major things that we've learned? You know, we threw out the 300 episode, the thread of attachment and the thread of activation is just about every single one of our episodes. And that is intricately involved in conflict. So bringing it back to the moment, which wasn't conflict, but it's just a real common difference. You saying we never do this or we haven't done this enough in me, Polyannish coming over and going to, but yes, we have. And it's so deeply attached to who we are, isn't it? Like you are just naming a reality that feels your reality, right? Right. So in my reality is that we used to record together all the time and then occasionally have guests. And then we were kind of half and half. And then for a couple of years now, we for different reasons, don't do it as often. So I think the last time was early January. And it's, you know, probably our tenure anniversary. It was probably our tenure anniversary. And then before that was a long time ago. So okay, so now I'm defending my statement. But just from where I'm coming from, you're right. It's not that we never do it, which is what I said, which was then elicited the response from you about like, yes, we do. So I'm saying my perspective now you share yours. Actually, I think your perspective is accurate that we've done it less. And I miss it. So I think part of it is there's a motion underneath it. There's a motion for both of us. Yeah, for me, the overall sweeping statements of never and always, always do love those. I love those. Always come back as an await a minute. And instead of, instead of the perfect response, would be like, yeah, we never do this. I'd be like, you're a fantasy response. I know. And out of all these years, you would think I would automatically give it. And that's why I love we just step right into it. Like, what do you mean never? We just recorded one. Not for a long ago. Well, and I think the term never, I think you're right. There was a motion under it in the sense that there was a missing or a wanting. So my exaggeration, which isn't great communication skills. So my exaggeration, yeah, it wasn't used with a little bit of feeling probably, which then activated a little bit of feeling on your part, which was like, hey, it's not never. We did record still. Like, everything's OK, Sue. Well, and it is activating feelings of me, actually, believe it or not, this time I was talking about, it wasn't just putting out your feeling in being too much. I was like, oh, wait, don't say never. I don't want it. And so it's that desire we have and that we can all fall into to be corrective. when it's just so not necessary. Like really, honestly, what you described is true. We used to do it all the time. And partly, like you said, for all sorts of different reasons, we haven't done it as much as we would both want to. And so my need to correct was really not there, right? But I did it anyway, because it hit something when you say, "Never, I feel underrepresented," or I feel, you know, "So I have this desire for accuracy," which is really natural when we are giving one another feedback and our relationships, right? Our brain wants to correct that incorrection. And yet, that can be something. I think a lot of people out there can relate to that. A little tiny thing could lead to humor and laughing, or it could lead to a three-day fight for anybody. That's absolutely true. Why don't we break down, like, because it's a whole different skill set giving feedback and receiving feedback? So are you good with that? - Yeah. - Yeah. - So let's start with the giving, 'cause that one's easier. And kind of what I had started to say is that it's easy in the sense, if you're not paying attention, it seems like it's easy, but it probably isn't very effective. So how do you give effective feedback where that it's a relational bid, you know, that you get heard and that you get closer, that that's what we're looking for. Like, instead of like the contrast is, like if I'm looking for justice, or if I'm setting up boundary, or if I'm, you know, if I'm trying to get a thing to happen that is just, it's not a relational thing. You know, and a lot of times we're motivated by looking for justice or see you did that, or whatever. That is not the same thing as what we're talking about now, which is this way to have communication, feedback. I heard a podcast where they called it carefrontation, instead of confrontation, which I really liked. So that is, I'm just distinguishing a carefrontation, a sharing feedback with somebody that you're trying to get closer to, distinguishing that from needing to set a boundary with somebody and be done with it. - I think what I'm thinking about or feeling as you're saying it, that it almost before we can jump in about how is good to do it. Is to really talk about why it's so hard? 'Cause you said it's not really clarifying or, but it can feel that way in our body, right? So what makes it hard might be kind of a better thing to tap on before we talk about how to do it. 'Cause I think it really is what makes it hard that can add to why we wanna do it differently. You know what I mean? You mentioned the idea of clarifying, or I think I'm forgetting, you said something just to find our side. That is what's so hard about giving feedback as we often do it in a way that's already really defensive. - Oh, totally. And Glennon Doyle's book, she talks about like that you have to be careful of what's in your cup because when you get bumped, that's gonna spill out. So if what's in my cup, when I'm coming to you, is aggression, or if it's contempt, or if it's that I'm looking to punish, or to for revenge, or if I have a lot of the negative feelings, that even if I say everything exactly right, I'm gonna get bumped because this activity is a bumping activity, it's difficult. So in other words, the person who's receiving is probably not gonna be perfect. So I'm gonna get bumped and that whatever's in my cup is gonna spill over. So you're right that we first have to get ourselves into a good space where our motives are clear, that in the basically I wanna do, I wanna break down some of the things that will help that. But I think you're totally right, is we have to look at what is our intention and what is our actual motivation like deeper down. - Well, and what makes it hard, right? Because our motivation could be really clear. Like if I'm approaching you, and I have a critique or a criticism or something that I want different, if I'm not attached to the fact that I'm wanting to give you this because I wanna be closer, then it's gonna spill over. It's not gonna come out. But what makes that hard, I guess is what I keep wanting to start with because the idea that I could get to that more caring place is not always just a decision. Sometimes it's really hard. We brought up like for me the avoidance of giving feedback. Why do we avoid it? There's so often a desire in our body to maybe imagine that the other person's gonna get hurt or imagine that the other person's gonna get angry. Well, say more about for you just to make it, right? Like for you, like what is your avoidance about that is related to your history? That might be helpful. So like the avoidance is like anytime we're giving feedback it's about a relationship. It's a relational endeavor. And it means something has hit me. Maybe it's maybe something's hurt my feelings or maybe something's triggered something in me. And I wanna bring it to you. There's a fear of harming the relationship that can inhibit me. Oh, and I think that this happens for a lot of people when you communicate. Well, I couldn't do that because it would hurt him or I couldn't do that because it's gonna make her angry. So it's our anticipation of what's gonna happen that then pulls just related to our early attachment stuff. Yeah. And so now instead of being in myself and being grounded, I'm actually not in my own self except for through anxiety. And instead I'm in this imagined place of how you're gonna respond positively. Your limbic is the one telling you the story. And so because there's no live new information happening between us, then that's always true. And the absence of information we're much more likely to go with our old stories. And then it just feels totally true and real. We really pay attention to corroborating evidence but in the absence of it, we just already know that it's true. Like that you better not bring something up because that I'll react it in a negative way or I'll be hurt or whatever. And it can't ever see the light of day. And that's a great example of how some of our early attachment wounds come into our adult relationships. So I really appreciate you sharing that. And it's like starting with the first of all, we have a layer of attachment history and implicit stories that is gonna impact how we give and receive feedback. Well, and then it's gonna become live action, right? Because if I've avoided it and avoided it and by the time I bring it in my mind and body, I've had these projected ideas of either you being hurt or you being angry. And now I think it's a live experience between the two of us. And so by the time I bring it up, I'm probably as you were mentioning before, if I haven't really recognized that, then by the time I bring it up, I probably am going to bring it up in a way that's saying alarm bell, alarm bell. And that's happened, right? Where by the time I'm saying something, I have the preamble that is sending nothing but alarm bells to you because if I have to do a preamble like that, it must really be bad. And it could be so small, but for me, it's like, okay, okay, here I go, you know? And so then your response is likely gonna be much more heightened. And then you're gonna prove me right, right? Because now I've helped engage in a heightened response in you. And so now, look, see, now you are angry. Or now I am hurt. Yeah, but we can add my implicit in there as well. So, you know, yours was you were safe by caregiving and avoiding was very adaptive. And for me, just for whatever reasons, even though we had very similar histories, mine was more of say it, say it, say it, say it, say you know, you have to say it. Like, don't look away, you have to say it. So that when my implicit gets that hit of something's not being said, or something's being glossed over, then yes, then all of a sudden now, whatever, instead of just lovingly hearing what you have to say and being able to be there for you because you're nervous to talk about it, that I'm also then activated. And really wanting to get to it. And that's the whole, like, say it, say it, say it, which isn't gonna be a loving response and corroborates your fear that then I'm having bigger feelings, which then doesn't help you talk. So that's implicit to implicit. And what we're talking about is learning how to beat, we can identify those things and listener, you know, what is your implicit story? Whatever the ways you fill things in, we all have something. And even if it's something positive, like, I assume that people wanna hear what I have to say, that's beautiful. And that's an implicit narrative that has probably served you really well. And that is a great thing. It's not all negative. It might be, nobody wants to hear from me. And then that's gonna dictate it. So I like, okay, so we're starting from, we have these implicit stories that are gonna impact it. - Yeah, that's one reason why we avoid it. I think another, I think another common reason that I hear a lot is like, we overestimate so often how obvious things are. So we kind of believe the other person should just know. And if they're, so if I had to say something, it feels so obvious. So why should I say anything? Do you know what I mean? Like it just, so one reason we kind of don't bring things up inherent bias that's not gonna go well. And then this like belief and a lot of people do that, tell themselves, they already know. Obviously they know that they're doing this thing and they keep doing it. So why do I need to bring it up, right? Because you obviously know. - I said it once. So why should I say it again? - I said it. - Yeah, I said it several times and you're still doing it. So you obviously know, so why do I have to bring something up? So there's the avoidance, but there's also this overestimate. that we do that says, "Oh, you should just know." And if you don't know, it's because you don't care. - Right. Ooh, I'm glad you said that. I bet people are nodding along because that does sound really familiar. And then that can lead to some real stiff things like some withdrawal or again, with all these stories being reinforced and the other person not getting a chance. So if you're really identifying with this, if there's anybody in your life where you're saying, "Well, I've already told them, so never mind." We want to challenge you a little bit on that because that puts it all on the other person. It says if the other person is entirely to blame and it also doesn't look at, I mean, how many times have somebody told you something and you did it again, right? Like just because somebody tells us something doesn't mean that we're going to suddenly stop doing it, we're going to have to tell them 100,000 times probably and hopefully each conversation evolves, right? And it gets deeper and more complex and I'm understanding why I continue to do it when you don't want me to do it. And I also continue to learn what it means to you which will actually help me not do it. I think an example was about being on time recently that used to we would both kind of fiddle around and sort of be waiting for the other person to say, "Come on, we gotta go." And the other one was going to be doing that. We both be sort of waiting. And then you wanted me to know that, no, you really want to be on time and you want me to also hold being on time to a social engagement versus coming late. And like let's say you had told me that a whole bunch of times and I still dragged my feet and was slow and got, you know, "Oh, I'm coming, I'm coming," you know, that kind of thing. It still is important. What we're saying is it's still important to again. And this is where I want to get into, how do you do it and what are the factors? Was there anything else you wanted to say on the wise? - This is good. I don't want to stay on the wise. I mean, I just kind of before we jumped into the how-tos like what makes it hard, I think helps the wise. - Yeah, well we can keep doing the wise all through the how-tos too, right? So if you're identifying on the side of, I've already told them, you know, it's not going to go well, I'm not going to bring it up. If they love me, they would not do this that we want to call BS on that. That is, I mean, that may be true. Of course, we don't know your individual circumstances. But the idea is that we're all growing, changing, learning, it's important to look at. A lot of times, a lot of times, we think we've been really clear and we haven't. Or maybe we were clear that one time and we were feeling tons of vulnerability. We finally, like, had eaked out of our mouth what we wanted. But for the other person who's thinking of 100 things and here's this tiny little eke of information. So for you inside you, it's huge. But for the other person, it might not land in the same way. So what's important about doing our own side of the street is that even if you set it, if you're still in relationship with this person and if they're still doing it and if it's still bothering you, then it's an important thing for you to continue to bring up. And bring up, even being curious about, like, I'm curious, are you aware that, let's just use the being like, Sue, are you aware that I'm really trying really hard to get us on time to social events? I might be like, no, I thought we were fine. Or I might be like, oh, yeah, I know you've said that. I think I'm doing better. I want you to do better. I think you can do better. Can we work to do a little bit? You see what I'm saying? That, like, one is to be curious about the other person. And then the other is, this is still impacting. I need you to remember that it's still impacting me. Yeah. And I think what's a real point in that is that this idea that intellectual understanding leads to change, like you said, well, you might have said it 15 times. It doesn't matter. If, I mean, the leaving on time is a great example. Not just between us. It's a common argument and couples where they're like, the person keeps running late and the other person's like, I've told you a hundred times. Like, I don't care much. You tell somebody, our nervous systems are going to acclimate to who we've always been. So we have to find a win-win in this, right? And so it's like just the idea that I've told you is not enough and to believe because I've told you it's important, it means it's going to change the whole way you function in terms of being on time or being late. It's just not reality. So I think part of that is standing in the reality of trying to communicate what's important to me versus how many times I've told you. Yeah. And I think one of the things is going to help a lot with that is vulnerability. So if you're just standing with your hand on your hips saying, I told you we should be on time, that doesn't land that great usually, versus if I can come to understand for you what it means for you being late and for this reason or for that reason or for whatever. Now all of a sudden I'm on board, hey, I'm wanting to help my partner get a thing that she wants versus I'm whatever in trouble or whatever it is. Right. That avoids a very classic thing in conflict and that is what's right and wrong. Is being on time right or wrong? And so a very classic reframe could be, we really need to be time. I want to be on time if I don't show my vulnerability and I'm just looking at you might be saying, they don't care for late. We may now think how often conflicts are about something that's not really landing about the importance of the vulnerability. Now we're talking about facts. And that is such a classic difficulty for most humans is that we kind of think if we can just like get the facts straight, we're going to be OK. So if you're like, no, you and I could be arguing about whether it matters to these friends, whether we show up late. And you're like, well, it doesn't matter. I'm like, well, but if I go away, it matters to me. I really want to be no longer are we talking about the fact. We're talking about what's important to me. And that's echoing what you were saying. But it's also avoids a common mistake in conflict and that is arguing the facts. Right. If you could be in a court of law, you're probably your relational skills. You might be, you might could brush up on those a little bit, that it's really about the experience of your partner or the close person or your sister or whoever it is that you're wanting to get closer to. So and a couple of the keys that we want to think about as far as a carefrontation is-- we've already talked about kind of what's inside related to our intent and really thinking about anticipating the other person's response and knowing that it's probably-- that it's not going to go smoothly because it's very hard to get feedback. So go ahead and building that in instead of, like, we'll see. You roll-derise it means that then, therefore, the conversation's over. No, it's like, let's remember that whenever anybody's bringing something that's difficult to hear, you got to build in some room for them to squirm, because they probably will. And then the other thing is that you want to make sure that how this is going to go best is if you're doing it with love and you're having the intent to improve the relationship and you're having the intent that it's good for the other person too, that you're not just trying to prune a person to be exactly the way you want them to be. It's not that. You should. Sometimes I really want to prune you. OK, I'm going to have to-- let me listen to this. It's not about pruning you into what I want you to be. OK. If I could be pruned, I would. And the same and reverse, fortunately, as a world-red head, I cannot be pruned, which is causes the other side of the problem. Get your damn shares away from me. So this idea of when care is felt-- we started with talking about that this is all about attachment and some level. And when we're giving feedback, it's activating that part of us that is about belonging. It's not even-- oh, if I'm going to give you feedback, all of a sudden I'm pushing you out of the nest in a way through what could feel like a criticism. So if you can feel my care and my vulnerability, and I've taken the time before I say something to feel both of those, it's going to hit your entire nervous system. And I'm saying that, hey, I trust us to be able to tell you this thing that's important to me is a huge part of giving each other feedback. And then it's good for you. And another trick, kind of, is to see if you're connected to the part of you that knows the person that you're trying to talk to is good. Is already good, because they're going to need a little support on the receiving end, which we'll talk about next. They're going to need a little support remembering that. So that they're already good. They probably are doing the best they can. And they need this feedback, because there's something wrong or that's going poorly or that's at least between the two of you. So if you have some of those things where that it's like you can feel, you are connected to the part of them that is good, that you are investing in a future in this relationship, that you're trusting yourself, and you're trusting them to hear you. That's going to be the best volleyball serve that you can give. And it still might not go well. And if it doesn't go well, again, we want to have you really good mental health is like, OK, well, this isn't a good time. Let's come back to it. You give a lot of grace. It doesn't mean that you don't not come back to it. It doesn't mean that you never bring it up again. The opposite of that. Right. And it's about it going-- like when you said, let's say we bring it up and it doesn't go well. That doesn't mean it wasn't effective. How it goes in that one moment-- Oh, I can get real prickly. I'm like, I know. You told me. So I'm not great in the moment. But boy, do I listen. Right, are you not, but you might not look like you're listening. And so the idea, so many people avoid feedback as they say, it doesn't go well. It does it like they don't or since it's not going to go well, maybe I'll give some perfect time later because this perfect, this moment isn't perfect and then it never comes up. And we underestimate how much relationships are built on repair, not lack of rupture. It isn't that your relationship is better because you rarely have ruptures because if you're rarely a ruptures because you're avoiding holding things in or scared to bring it, that can lead to a lot of slow erosion in your relationships. So the idea, like you were mentioning, to see that idea that is a loving, caring thing to bring it in is important for us to remember, especially for one that is going to give feedback and we're holding it back and we're avoiding it. We can't have a close relationship. And when you are saying the idea about care, it's like not only is it going to help you if I find the care. It helps me because if I'm stuck in my own narrative, I've told this person they don't care or they're not going to listen, that I'm not going to be connected to my own care. So when I stop to think of care in the relationship, it's going to remind my entire body, oh wait, I do care about this person rather than I'm just thinking of the injustice because oftentimes when we're upset, our brain goes to injustice. This isn't fair, this isn't right, or I don't deserve to complain because this person does so much so it's all about justice, what's fair and what's not fair. Maybe you've been on time ten times and I'm saying this one time and you're like, there's not fair, I'm always on time. Well I'm having anxiety about whatever this event is that I want to be on time for and you pointing out the fairness or unfairness is probably not going to help our situation for me approaching you with fairness. This is unfair. I've said ten times. And I really, really want to emphasize that point because if we're in fair, right, wrong, we are probably not in our most regulated place. No matter which side of the equation giving or receiving. And part of, in this is a good segue as you were just talking about, like if I'm responding like that's not fair, I've been not late this many times and you're only saying, you know, so let's talk about the receiving feedback. And the reason we're taking some time about all this care is because it is so hard. We are both trained professionals that get paid to receive feedback, to give, well actually we're paid to give and receive feedback. But we're under trained in receiving feedback. But I can do it really, really well in my practice where that, and this is, these are some of the ways that I get to it, is like if somebody's complaining about me in my practice, I mean to my toes, what I feel and know is that this is vulnerable for them and that they probably have not been able to do this before within many other relationships. And no matter what they're saying, like this is a bid, it's a bid. That's the way that I think of it. Professionally, I'll get to the person in a minute, but professionally, yes. But as a professional, when somebody's giving me, it's so true, it's so much easier in our professional practice. But part of it is, boy, if somebody's giving his feedback, you could feel the trust in the relationship. Well, let me, so let me try something. Okay. Can I? Can I have a client and I come in and I'm like, and this isn't effective, that you're not helping me. I just want to give you the feedback that you're not helping me. How does that go? Well, obviously, it depends on what the surf cone stance is. If you're somebody who is often very controlling in the relationships and often criticizing, or if you're somebody that, to the core, I mean, each one, I'm going to be glad to see the feedback, right? Because it's either being a replication of what's happened out there, or maybe this is a real, like, it's not, I'm not being helpful. And I really need to listen to that. Well, I'm also thinking too, like, if this individual, like, is taking the risk to bring their voice in, to me, they're asking for something. They want something different. They're wanting something. And they didn't just quit coming. They're saying, and this isn't working. Like, okay, what is it? Maybe I'm even often what it is would be important for you. So it's a reorganization of the relationship. Like, let me listen, tell me more, really is so much easier in the therapeutic context to feel. It is. And I even picked the, like, the scariest thing to hear is a therapist. It's so true. Or at least in the family of scary things. Yeah. Because you're right. Because then you have to discern, you know what I mean? Is this person felt too close to you? So then they're further pushing you away? Or like, what was the unconscious or, you know, underlying motivation of that? It's an indication of trust. It's an indication of. Maybe. Right. Well, that's true. That's why I was saying it depends on the kind of thing. Exactly. I know I agree with you. I agree with you. If it's followed by, "Gee're just like everybody else." "Nobody can help me." Well, then I'm still honestly, so glad they said it. Because now I get to engage in a way that represents all the other people that I'm representing that can't help. [Music] So mudwater is a coffee alternative with four adaptogenic mushrooms and avertic herbs. With only a fraction of caffeine is a cup of coffee. You get energy without anxiety, jitters, or the crash of coffee. It leans on mushrooms in their blend of matcha and their blend for chai for sustained energy. Each ingredient was added for a purpose. The four mushrooms that they lean on most heavily are lion's mane, corticeps, chaga, and rishi. These are all designed to support your immune system, to support physical performance, for alertness. They'll also throw some turmeric in there for sornice. Turmeric, of course, is a little elixir in and of itself. Then some cinnamon for antioxidants. I cannot emphasize enough how delicious it is. It's interesting. It feels really good for your body. Most of us, even if you're eating pretty healthy, getting a wide range of mushrooms into your system and into your nervous system and your immune system is just good for you. I encourage you to go to mudwater.com/tu so that you'll get the discount that they offer our listeners of 15%. It's mudwatermuddwr.com/tu. For 15% off, it will come with this cute little tin. It comes with some sample packets. It also comes with this crazy baby frother that is USB rechargeable. I've had such a blast with it with my cacao. That's what I've been adding to my morning ritual. It tastes delicious. Because I'm not a big coffee drinker, it gives me what coffee does for many people, which is the ritual. I can sit outside and drink it. It's delicious. Now, some of their versions don't have any caffeine. For example, you could have turmeric in the middle of the day. What's so great is how good it tastes. Even though it's good for you. There's no suffering here. I really encourage you to go to mudwater.com/tu. That's mudwtr.com/tu. For our listeners, by going to that particular link, you're going to get 15% off. You're also supporting the show because these folks are the ones that are helping make our podcast free for everybody. mudwater.com/tu. Check it out. So I want to add another piece here. I've been doing a lot of work in the DEI world as a white-bodied therapist learning how to receive feedback about causing harm or creating microaggressions with people that have been discriminated against in the world. I'm in the power position, both as a therapist and also as a white-bodied person and educated person, all those things. When somebody with less of those really undeserved power dynamics comes in and is giving me feedback, it's a whole different thing. I have been in my own kind of personal boot camp about how to hear, for example, when a client says, "You're interrupting me because I'm Hispanic," for example. That is a whole other skill set. We need to probably do a whole podcast about that specifically, what we're learning, the unlearning, the deep programming we have to do. It's all in this vein of working on us needing to be perfect and being able to celebrate, "Oh, this person is bringing it to me that is so important." Part of what that means is we have to deal with our shame. Whether it be Anne's bringing to me a thing that I just can't get it together and I do that hurts her and I want to defend myself and I want to explain and I want to show how she's wrong. Talk about that it wasn't my intent. You were right. It wasn't the intent, right? That's right. We go with impact over intent. Go with impact over intent. You're intent, whether it be a DEI situation, it doesn't matter what I intend because now I've re-centered myself in the conversation about what I meant instead of keeping the center and the focus on the person who's trying to communicate. I think that totally applies in a relationship. person as being vulnerable and trying to give you feedback the more. that you can really, that line impact over intent, you know, like own your wake. So if I did a thing and I bobbled somebody over, you don't say, well, you should have not been there. You, oh my gosh, I did a thing and tell me all about it. But I think the first layer of that is that know that it's going to feel horrible, that it's going to feel icky, that it's going to feel shitty, and give yourself a minute. You might need a minute. You might need to even take a minute to get your limbic system calm down a little bit so that again, you don't have to be perfect. You get to make mistakes. All those things, and I'll say a little bit more, we'll say a little bit more about what else to do. But the first thing is it's going to feel crappy and don't let that be the end of the story. Well, I love that and it also might feel wrong. I mean, so if we're aware of this shame, if we're aware of the shame, then it's going to feel, oh my god, I'm going to mistake, and it feels so crappy. But often the part about intent hits because it feels wrong. No, you misunderstood me or I didn't mean that. Or that's not true. I wasn't late at all. Yeah, or getting back to the racial. I really appreciated what you were saying there about how hard it's been. I feel like we've grown a lot. Yeah, you've been doing it too. Well, just of this idea of really being able to take feedback in a way where somebody, especially somebody of color, can give it because if I'm so either defensive or full of shame that I can't receive it and go really be appreciative that the person is taking the risk to give it to me, to give me that feedback. And if I say, well, that's not what I meant, you misunderstood me or I think what we're often defending there is our identity as a good person or as somebody who doesn't believe that they have racial biases, which also has a deal with, yeah, you're either a good person or a bad person. And we want to really help everybody get out of that binary that we are all right, that and I also want to say one other thing since we're talking, since we are talking some about the racial piece and it's not just racial, it's marginalization in general. If you've been marginalized. So all that stuff that we said about, you know, how to give feedback, some of that just needs to be set way aside when we're talking about marginalization, when the feedback is being given in a power structure where it goes up. Because otherwise, we're going to be tone policing. We're going to be like, well, you need to say, you know, we can't say to somebody with less power than us, well, you know, you really need to connect to your care and your investment and your relationship with me. And so if you say it that way, I'm not going to listen, right? That's not what we're saying. As a matter of fact, what we're saying, we're on the side of receiving and on the side of receiving that we need to not be conditional about how we're hearing it. And it might come to us louder than what our culture would normally dictate, whether that be family culture or whatever culture. It might come to us, harsh, sure, it might come to us in all of these different forms that we think is wrong. And then we're going to try to respond to that. And now we're still recentering it on our experience that we don't, you know, say it a different way instead of wait. Let me focus on the content that you're saying and set my reactivity aside. And it's not just DEI really, you know, if you think about if your other, again, sister, mother, bot, it would just your intimate other is trying to tell you something. They don't have to tell you like if you're working in your bootcamp of a cammin, be a better receiver, a feedback that again, hearing it as a bit, but also that they don't have to tell you. And so the alternative is they don't tell you which brings us back to the beginning of the episode with Anne talking about avoidance and then the caustic effect that that has on relationships. Well, and another way of avoiding, I think, that I've learned a great deal about is avoiding doing things in order to avoid conflict, right? So we're talking about how to give each other feedback, but how often do we avoid and just even in the situation with somebody of color? How often we may not engage in something in order to not screw up and make the mistake where we could be outed as not for some mistake we make and be misperceived. And so I think part of what we're talking about no matter what is being able to really build up tolerance for discomfort. If we're going to give and receive feedback, we have to really learn to tolerate and be aware of the discomfort that arises in our body, whether that's avoiding engagement so that I don't screw up or I don't hurt your feelings or I don't say some racial blunder. So I'm just not going to connect at all. And I think that that has just as much of a negative effect. Oh, 100%. I'm so happy that you said that. Taking the risk to be in the relationship is so important and screw up. Like, we need to be able to screw up with one another to have ruptures and have repairs. And that actually builds the relationship in a so much more positive way. 100%. I mean, it's only, you know, in the last couple of years that I've understood that part of I don't want to call it just white fragility because it's probably. Well, well, but in particular, related to the race stuff, there's a white part of white fragility is trying to get it right and being a good person, trying to be a good person. I know that sounds crazy, but it's what you're saying that like if I'm too scared to engage, I mean, still centering my own feelings. It's still very self-referential. And it's still kind of saying, I'm not a good person if I make a wrong move or if I offend someone, which isn't true. We're saying like we're all just these bodies that are all related to each other. We're all can, you know, race is a construct, you know, like gender is a construct. So the idea that exactly what you're saying, that the fragility of I can't, I don't want to say anything because I'll make a mistake. It's both not good for that reason, but also at this idea that like, oh, if you make that mistake, that means you're a bad person. So we're just saying yours can still be a whole, and again, just get out of the good, bad binary. We're all these bodies with multiplicities that have darkness and lightness and that have vulnerabilities and that have some of the most amazing courage and humanity that is there. You write like we're all of this bag of everything. So I really like you bringing up the fragility part. Yeah, I think the tendency to really hit defensiveness. And remember, defensiveness isn't, is a embodied response. It's almost automatic, but it hits us in most personal relationships if there's something that feels a threat to our identity. Like if you're complaining to me, and I see myself as a good person, my whole body and brain wants to tell you that you're wrong, because what I'm trying to say is, like, I'm a good person, so I couldn't have done that. I hadn't meant to it. And I think it's the most common circular loop that I see in all sorts of relationships. And that it leads us into really having to defend the facts. I think the painful part is a small argument leads to a huge one because we're saying, no, wait, you didn't hear me, you don't understand me. That's not accurate. That's not what happened. Have you been, have you been listening in on me? I guess, of course you have. I've never said that ever in my entire life. Yeah, let's not what happened. No. And so then we're both biting our time. Oh, yeah. I've said that. I've said that a bunch of times. Let me just say that. Okay, go ahead. We're biting our time, barely listening to the other person because there's some unconscious or conscious belief that we have that when it's our turn and we get this facts all clarified, then that's going to be okay. Now you're not going to be mad anymore because you just have the facts wrong. I really didn't do that. And then while you're giving me your facts, I can't listen to you because your facts are wrong. So now we have two bodies who understandably are fighting not to have a bad identity. To be our brains are activated, thinking we're right. And when we are angry, we think we are right. And I see that loop and that stuck point so often. Me too. And I hope as you're listening, again, I'm imagining lots of people not in long. So not that. And also after we move in the direction of what we want to be doing and said, how to, like if you catch yourself like explaining, and I can certainly speak to it personally too about like how I try to get out of it. But if you catch yourself explaining like, what's the move to try to do? One move, I think there's several of them that I can think of, not that I do them perfectly. But I think one move is if you were to know all the facts, we're accurate. Like if I was day able to give you all the facts and you accepted all the facts, what is it that I really want you to hear? Or if I was to hear all your, what is underneath the message? So the reason we're arguing our facts is because we don't want to be a bad person. We don't want to be misunderstood. We're trying to control how the other person sees us. Yes. And we don't want to be misunderstood because depending on our history, that could be really painful, right? So we are having to swallow something. So sometimes one time, if I always say if we're into the don't you see, we need a break because we're already two self-righteous. But I think being able to stop and go, okay, wait. Maybe it's something I started. Maybe it's between you and I and it's something. thing I started and I'm halfway through it and you say that's not what happened. And I'm going, okay, yes it is, right now I'm holding on to yes it is because if that's not what happened, then whatever feelings I had or have all of a sudden are irrelevant. And so I have to give you my facts so that my feelings become relevant, right? So what I'm fighting for likely is to stay connected, to be heard. There's all these other things that I'm fighting for with my details that are, I'm going to the details don't matter. So if I was to slow focus that and get out of the facts because maybe my facts, my facts are wrong by the way and maybe my facts show you up to be a more insensitive hurtful person. And so now you have to defend, I'm not that hurtful because that's not what happened. If I slow down and go, okay, wait, getting out of the facts, what I really want you to hear is that this thing's important to me and I'm scared it's not to you. Exactly, that's right. Moving towards something that is scary to say, moving towards vulnerability for sure. My version of that of getting out of it would be that I'm now aware enough of myself as somebody, the whistleblower in my family, that documenting evidence is something that I can get caught on. And so I can hear sometimes now if I'm like, no, that's not what, if I start litigating that I have a younger part or, you know what I mean, there's a part of me that is now focused on the wrong thing. So for me, it's more of like, okay, I need to let that, like, I need to soft focus, I need to let it go, I need to tune back into what you're saying instead of like arguing about the time and day or whatever it is. So my personal version is just, oh, that's a tell that I now hold, I try to hold more lightly because I can get dogged about like, wait, we have to have this shared reality before we go forward, you know, and some of that is driven, some of that volume is driven by just my own history. And so there's just something about, I can just noticing that it's, oh, that's the thing that I have taught myself to just let go of, like, move along, like, that's not, it doesn't matter. Like, that part doesn't matter. Focus back on what she's saying is a way back in. Well, and it takes us directly to this idea of what about trauma and how trauma comes into relationships. One of the things that brings up for me is like, if you start to litigate the facts, if I come back and start to litigate my set of facts so that I have a feeling, we're off to the races. But if I was able, if I'm regulated enough to say, it may or may not be what happened, I might not have the facts accurate. But what I'm trying to communicate about my feelings is, and from that perspective, like, you're remembering me and that I have a part that can get caught. So if I'm not catching that I'm caught, if you're aware of like, oh, this is a tough place for Sue, let me just soften what I said. It's like, oh, I'm not sure if it was Tuesday or Wednesday, whenever day at what, you know, like if you soften it and then we're able to get back on track, I think that's a great ad. And that brings in trauma, right? Like trauma is in our bodies. We have the way that we attach, the way that we conflict, the way we avoid or the way we can't avoid conflict has a lot to do with our history. And this is a great example of that. And getting more stubborn and more loud is not going to bash us through our young attachment history. And here's something for a while, it was more of like, hey, you know that this is a thing for me. So just we need to do this thing because it's a thing for my history. And I imagine there's many of you out there that have done a lot of work on yourselves. You now can see how your adaptations that helped you survive are getting in the way of your adult relationships. Well, we want to push that a little further and say that yes, you didn't deserve to be hurt. Yes, you have trauma. It's impacted your body. But we also need to hold ourselves accountable and not accountable as in dismissing yourself in your history, but accountable and that we still have to do the work to clean up how our history's impacted our current relationships. And to say you don't get a pass because that you've had this happen, you get empathy, like you deserve to be witnessed, you deserve the healing, all those things. But when that stuff turns into behavior that can be harmful or that is toxic to a relationship or that, you know, well, I snap because of this or my dad was angry, so I don't mind yelling. And we're scaring somebody. That's where we want to push everybody a little bit, including myself and including you. I know you're doing this really, really hard work as well. For us to really address that so that we're addressing continuing. It's part of our healing. We don't want to just say, oh, I shut down for three days because of my history and like, oh, now you just have to get used to that because I've been traumatized not enough and that kind of having enough self love and other love and love were that we're shooting in all of your directions that part of healing is really actually letting go of some of those adaptations so that more love can come in. This is good for you to let go of those things and your adult relationships even if you've been traumatized. And in bringing complaints in a caring way rather than avoiding it because you think your partners had too much this or that, like, it helps us grow, right? This is what relationships are all about, whether it's friendships or whether it's romantic relationships. We help build these muscles that are just so wonderful as we continue to grow. Yeah. You're bringing in, like, if your partner's the one that's been more trauma, you know, has trauma that is easier for you to see anyway. I don't know what your history is, but you can see theirs. It doesn't mean, yeah, just like what I said, that it doesn't mean not to want more and the empathy and love and, you know, maybe it's something that you can give up whatever it is. And that's good too. Like, that's okay. But we're talking about the things that are actually harmful to relationships because sometimes we can be our self-awareness is great and we spend all this money doing therapy and then we can be really aware of all of our nooks and crannies. And as if that's enough, but like in other words, our self-awareness can turn into self-protection, can turn into defensiveness at times. And it's just something to a lot of people don't talk about that, but it's true that we really need to wear it, wear it in our sex, wear our pain in our sex with continuing the cause harm to our children, to our clients, to our special people that, again, I just go back to the love, like you deserve to have this healing even go deeper to continue to let more love in towards you. It's a good thing. And are if you're a partner or a parent or a friend, recognizing that somebody's activated, it isn't also like where you disengage, well, that's not my stuff that yours. Like we stay engaged in a way that recognizes the activation and what can be helpful in that. Like for me to recognize getting the facts is important to you, then I could say, I know that's important to you. And like so I don't have to shut down and I could keep it. I also need to integrate it and be aware and loving and thoughtful about the way I respond. Right. And in reverse that like, okay, a confrontation is difficult for you. You talk about avoiding that the more that I can hold that you speaking up about something is vulnerable. And so the safer I can make it for you, whenever it happens, then again, that's part of how we can continue to both have the pain still in our lives, but continue to heal and grow with it. And before we wrap up, I can't not mention because a lot of times when we think about conflict, we think about speaking to people, we think about getting angry, et cetera. If you are out there listening and you're thinking all about your partner because you're not the one that gets emotionally activated, but you might be the one that sees high intensity emotions as the threat and as the problem. I also want to invite that to be something that's explored, like the idea that avoiding emotional conflict and avoiding when emotion, somebody's emotional towards you, that the idea is to shut that down, see it as overreacting, seeing it as too much, may be just as much a part of your history in your trauma that's less recognizable. I love, love, love that and I totally agree. And we have a resource and this is not why we did this episode to be very clear. We actually are quite awkward at talking about our own material, but we do have a course that goes into all this stuff in such depth and really brings in the science, but it's a lot of how-tos. So if you're still with us and you find this valuable, it really might be worth checking out. It's called Beyond Attachment Styles and you can find it on our website, therapistandcensor.com/bas stands for Beyond Attachment Styles. And yeah, it's like hours and hours and hours and chapters so it's easy to get through. It's really good for couples to do. It's six hours for the price of one session and then also there's discounts and honestly it's for anybody. This is not just for therapists. Therapists sometimes refer people to do it, which we love, but it is for anybody and it's done in bites. You don't just sit down and you could listen to it. That's a good thing that there is a couple. Yeah, or a thruple. I think that's awesome. Or with your teenager. theirpersonsensory.com/bas and I know that the link is correct. If you're listening to this episode and you can't find a discount code, just go through our show notes, which are on our website attached to this episode, we'll have it linked directly there and it'll have a discount code for you. - Well, you know what? We just completed our 300th episode. - Woohoo. And we're still, you know, our whole purpose has been to get the science of relationships out of therapy offices and out of research institutions into people's ears and hearts around the world. We checked it today. Amazingly, we're still in the top 10 social science of Apple Podcasts, which is wild. We're over 12 million downloads. And you know what that means? Where's my heart? It means there's so many people out there that are caring about relationships and looking at themselves and sharing. And that's what's so exciting about that top 10 number. You know, that just means to me that we have such a group of people out there that we're part of that care and are out there caring and doing the work. And as a matter of fact, if you're one of those and you want more of this kind of, any kind of behind the scenes stuff or discounts to things or actually you get premium episodes, then there's also an online community that you can join. It's our Nuremberg community. And again, you can get that at therapistandcensor.com/join. You know, especially if you're a therapist, we often, you know, you refer these sessions, sometimes these sessions, they're kind of like sessions. We just kind of had a little bit of a couple session to clients and it's just a nice thing to do for us, especially if you're using it as a resource. So all right, is there enough? Is that enough? That was a lot. That's it. All right. Yeah. 300 episodes. It's been worth it and it's been such an amazing ride. So appreciate doing this with you. Have lots of gratitude. All right, and gratitude to all your listeners for being there and caring. So thanks so much for listening and we'll see you around the bin. (upbeat music) Therapistandcensor is Ann Kelly in Sumeriat. This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.