293. 3 Thoughts on Not Giving Up with Stephen Murray

You can mentor is a podcast about the power of building relationships with kids from hard places in the name of Jesus. Every episode will help you overcome common mentoring obstacles and give you the confidence you need to invest into the lives of others. Find out more at youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You can mentor. Welcome to the Youcanmentor podcast. This is your boy's act. I'm with the Murdoch. You're ever going to update the music for this podcast, which is just not to like the music. What's wrong with the music? I'm not hating. Well, it sounded like you're like you picked the music. It sounded like you were working on a jingle there. Well, this isn't going how I thought it would. This is great. All right, mentors, mentoring, ladies and gentlemen, today, me and Stephen Murray, executive director of Foreigner Mentoring Program in Delos, Texas. We're talking about, quote unquote, three thoughts about not giving up. That's what we're talking about Murdoch. Well, what I text you is the sin of giving up. Is that too intense? That's what you take for your audience, not giving up. The sin of giving up, oh, maybe I didn't text at all. That was the header. Maybe I didn't copy and paste that. Yeah, that's, I don't know if it's a sin. Is it a sin? Okay, so let me, let me read the scripture that sent me down a rabbit trail. I've been trying to read the Bible in the month of January. Wait, I can't talk about the Bible on your podcast. Just let's give some context here. So Stephen and I are friends, we used to work together. We love mentoring. I feel like we've got some good chemistry here on the podcast. And this is how we do it. I sent Stephen a text yesterday morning, said, hey, we've got podcast tomorrow. What do you want to talk about? He sends me a podcast at midnight with these three things, this long paragraph. And that's how we got here. So now talk about how we got here, Stephen. Yes. So I've been reading the Bible, which is what I do. That's our first recommendation on this podcast, read your word. There are these guys, they do this Bible reading plan called the shred. So you read like 40 chapters a day and it's just ridiculous, but you get a wide swath of the story of the Bible. And this passage in 1 Samuel 12 stood out to me. This is Samuel talking to the Israelites through he is clearly upset with because of decisions they're making. And he says this, he says, Samuel said to the people, do not fear. They've committed all this evil yet, do not turn aside from following the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart. You must not turn aside for then you would go after few tile things, which cannot profit or deliver because they are futile, where the Lord will not abandon his people on account of his great name, because the Lord has been pleased to make you a people for himself. Moreover, and this is the point, moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, but I will instruct you in the good and right way. There's Samuel choosing not to give up on God's people, and I just love that part, part be it from me that I should cease praying for you, but I'll instruct you in the good and right way. So that is the sin of giving up. That was my thought, is what does it look like to be committed to? Committed to people in your life, maybe your mentoring relationship, and maybe you're feeling like things are going south, and they're like the Israelites, they, I don't know, they may not say, "We want a king, we want a new mentor," or I don't know what they say, but I think it's a fun thought to think of. Like giving up as a sin, that kind of wakes me up a little bit, I'm like, "I don't want to be, I don't want to give up," and I mean, the Apostle Paul talks about not growing weary and doing good, and yeah, so that's where my thoughts came, I'm sorry for leaving out my headline. No, please, I don't know if it's a sin, I'm not going to go that far, but what I will say is, God probably doesn't like it, and so I think about that verse in Hebrews 10 where it talks about shrinking back, but we do not belong to those who shrink back, but to those who have faith, and I'm just like, "Man, just to kind of take you all back on where we came from in regards to your mentor," it's like at the very beginning, we're just going to create these contents and books and podcasts, and it's going to be great, and we're going to teach people how to mentor, and I think that's good, I think that there's a place for that, but the more we get into it, the more we kind of stumbled upon this, yeah, people need equipping, but more than anything, they need encouragement, because we have seen it so often, a mentor gets excited, I've got a mentee, I'm going to change his life, it's going to be great, he spends time with a mentee, the mentee does not respond how he thinks that he should respond, he gets discouraged, and then he quits, that is the typical, like, excitement, meeting, disappointment, quit, and so, which is not encouraging, but I will say that we talk a lot about not giving up, because there's such a temptation to give up, because the enemy is just going to fill your head with lies, you could be doing something else, this kid's not going to change, this kid doesn't, thou you you, you should be spending time with someone who, right, and so on, and so, so I think it's very important for us to talk about this, if you're a mentoring leader and you're honest with yourself, it's hard, it's very difficult to build relationships with the kids and the families who have experienced hard things, if you are a mentor, odds are your kid is not coming to you every week and saying thank you so much, Mr. Mentor, I just really value your wisdom, and I appreciate you, I was, you know, going down a bad path, doing drugs, having sex, and now I'm reading the Bible in a month, just like Stephen Murray, right, like he isn't, isn't going to say that, and so we have to learn about endurance, we have to learn about perseverance, we have to learn about not giving up, because the temptation is real, so, anything else to add there, Murdoch? Yeah, I mean, there, there are a lot of things, the three things that I sent you, are my thoughts. Whoa. I tell you, should I tell it? Let, no, you shouldn't tell me, you should let me facilitate this conversation, okay? I'm in charge here, not you, all right? The use it there and you form questions for my answers, I have a document right here that I'm staring at, that I'm about to follow, okay? All right, so the title of this podcast is Three Thoughts About Not Giving Up by Stephen Murray, and the first one is this, also maybe is it sin? I mean, maybe, I don't, I don't know, just don't do it, just don't give up. But let me be real with you, Stephen, this morning in my time with God while I wasn't in the Bible for 40 chapters, I did think about God, and this really encouraged me, like this is good, this is, and I'm going to be honest, not everything that you give me is good, but this is good, all right? So if you're listening, you're in for a trick, okay, number one, spiritual formation is meant to be slow, okay? So Stephen, I'm going to give you this quote and you tell me what you think, okay? Mentoring is not like a microwave, but instead it's like a slow cooker, it's a smoker. Tell me more about that. It's a slow cooker, yeah, yeah, I mean, have you ever been into a breakfast sandwich that you put in the microwave, or it's like the English muffin becomes literally like a sponge? It's like, you think you're eating a scrub daddy, like, it's terrible. I've never not enjoyed what's been cooked in a slow cooker, but it also takes a considerable like amount of time to get there. And I just, I think it's a good principle. to consider if spiritual formation is slow. Maybe that's by design. Maybe God's original intent was to do a work over time and not just create these shortcuts. I mean, you've probably heard pastors say, like, you know, Jesus will show up. And he never heals people with immaturity. It's always, you know, he may advance, you know, water into wine and do that with objects and things to declare as glory. But he never moves people who are idiots and makes them, you know, wise beyond their years. It's always, no, it takes years to develop wisdom. And the story that came to mind in my head was like, you know, the Apostle Paul where, you know, we can, we can all agree that the Apostle Paul before he was tall, he was Saul and he devoted his life to the scripture. And, you know, that took him in such a way that his interpretation was that Jesus was a apostate and needed to be taken out. And his followers needed to be taken out. And then he has an encounter with God where his eyes are blinded. Jesus says, why are you persecuting me? And how you kind of imagine it goes is that Paul just like wakes up and he's like, I've been going the wrong way. And I need to go preach the good news to the Gentiles and all this stuff. But actually when you read the scripture, it's like, he goes away to the desert and sits in solitude for years. I wrote a rap song about the book of Galatians and the passage where after this Paul says, I went away to a rabia and then returned once more to Damascus. My rap song wasn't that great, but I always remember him saying he went away to a rabia. And I don't know what you think about when you think about a rabia. I think of a desert, I think of Paul being alone, thinking about what he's going to do with the rest of his life. And maybe his encounter was transformational, but that was a day that he spent years developing the man that he was going to become. And that man came from solitude. It came from him devoting years of his life to getting it right. I don't know, in some way, I feel like we would be short-changed. If Paul just got up and was about face preaching the gospel, but the thing that gives me hope is that his transformation was slow. And God was doing a work in him that sustained him for most of his life traveling, preaching the word, and amidst people that probably thought that he was against them. And I don't know, in some way, that just speaks to me that God is in it for the long haul. He wants to slow cook us not just to microwave us out of our path. And so mentoring is a journey. Well, and I mean, for those of you guys who know your Bible, Stephen's talking about Galatians 117 in 18, where he talks about after his encounter with God, he goes into the desert for three years. And it's there that the foundation is kind of set, right? So one thing that I always think about with our mentees is their kids, like they are children. And I've got kids, right? I've got a kid who's 10 right now. And he thinks he's smart, and he's not the smartest cat out there. Like he makes unwise choices. And he has had a pretty good life. Like he has an experienced food insecurity. He has an experienced trauma. He has an experienced having to move or, you know, insecurity in stability, like some of our kids have. And so it's always important to remember that we're dealing with kids here. And they probably aren't going to radically transform overnight, whenever they're 12 years old, because they spend an hour with their mentee, or with their mentor, right? This does take time. It reminds me of the Chinese, I think it's a bit, I think it's good old bamboo tree, where for years, you put this bamboo tree in the ground and it looks like nothing's happening. And then almost overnight, it shoots up like 90 feet. On the surface, it looks like nothing's happening. But underground, the roots are going deep. And so you as a mentor, it is meant to be slow, because the foundation is slow. Like if you're building a house, the thing that always takes the longest is the foundation. And so let us remember that as mentors. Steven, you're kind of a runner, which is very impressive to me. You don't look like a runner, you have a beard. I don't know guys who have beard who run, but you do. Let's talk about how it's more like a marathon than a sprint. You told me about zone two running, which I have no idea what that is. But why don't you talk about that? It's almost like this trend getting into the running sphere, where it's like it's cool to run slow and run for hours, and not just like get your PR, which I really appreciate. But there's a guy in my life group. He's like, his goal is to run a 15 minute mile. And I'm like, that's terrible. And he's like, well, you don't understand. I'm building my aerobic base. And I'm like learning all this stuff. And it's not just a trend like to get people who are fat to run, but it's like all of these guys who are ultra marathon runners have lived in this zone where they can run and talk and not grow weary and just go for hours. And the more you sit in that pace that you just pace yourself, the more your ability is to run fast. And so it's like, go slow to go fast. And so zone two is like, whatever pace you can run and carry a conversation, which I hate talking when I'm running. And it's not because I don't enjoy fellowship. It's because I start heaving and want to die if I have a conversation while I'm running. But I think how I attribute it to mentoring is that running a six minute mile is pretty flashy. But being able to run for 15 minutes for hours is going to be the thing that actually shows that your running is not dependent upon these like, you're best if that makes sense. And I think sometimes mentoring can be about the big gestures and not about the slow, like, I'm going to be consistent for seasons, not just for a season. Because I think that allows you to see the whole person grow. And I mean, if you run for hours, you're going to burn more calories than if you're just running for 10, 15 minutes and you burn out. So I think that happens to a lot of mentors that they focus on the big gestures and they get tired because they're trying to one up themselves. And it's like, I'll take you to the arcade, but now I got to take you to David Buster's. And then what's after David Buster's like, there's nothing after David Buster's. That's peak. So let's talk about playing Pac-Man and chill out as mentors. What is zone two mentoring look like? And I think this thought of the best mentors aren't faithful for a season. They're faithful for seasons. Laurel, I think that's a very strong statement Steven. And only if you stay in the game for the long haul, right? If you don't quit, you win. If you stay consistent for the long haul, you will see growth. It will happen. It just might take a whole lot longer than you think. But man, what a great opportunity we have as mentors to show this kid that you're not going anywhere, to show them that you are faithful, just like God is faithful, that you are consistent, just like God is consistent. And so also like you really get to know someone whenever you've been with them for years, right? Like one of the reasons why I think it's great that we do this podcast is because we've known each other for, I mean, over a decade. And it's, yeah. Has it been that long? It's great. Love it. But yeah, but that. I know, I know that's three people. I've known like three people that long. It's like you, my wife. you, my wife, and. - I have like one friend in high school. - Two people. - Two people. - Yeah. - That's great. Okay, so number one, slow, I mean, spiritual formation is meant to be slow. So if it's going slow mentor, don't get frustrated. Just know that that's normal, right? Number two, relationships are uncomfortable on purpose. Tell me more about that, Murdog. - Yeah, I mean, relationships are meant to build for people. And so nothing gets built without friction. So maybe your irritation is an opportunity to recognize something being built here. Whether it's something that needs to be removed or something that needs to be strengthened, I always feel like any friction that I feel in relationship, it keeps me awake and lets you know they grow alive. But also, I think there's an understanding that, okay, every relationship I'm in is going somewhere and if I'm experiencing frustration, maybe it's an opportunity to reset and recalibrate my eyes and look ahead and think about what is this unto? What am I trying to do here? And what am I about? So, I mean, any pain that you feel is usually something in your past, something in your present or something you're hoping for that you're not seeing. So what is it? Is it your past? Is it what you're experiencing presently? Is it a promise that you're believing for, that your heart aches because you're not seeing it? I think that relationships are uncomfortable on purpose. And so, mentoring relationships are not meant to just be a cloud of indifference that we don't face adversity. Iron sharpens iron, so why man sharpens another? I mean, the ability for both of those things to be sharpened, you know, you're not just sharpening the kid that you're mentoring. You're getting sharpened as well in that transaction. So, I mean, I feel like sometimes we lose sight of that and we need to talk to other people about what we're facing. There was a guy who inspired me to join Forerunner. I mean, the dude straight up burned me. And I'm sitting and I'm trying to like reconcile what the heck to do, and I'm feeling all of this pain and frustration that I want to quit. I want to murder the dude. Can I say that on here? I know your podcast. - Oh, you can't, but. - Well, first murder I'm about art in my heart. - Yeah, man, sounds as if you need to read some more Bible. - I mean, this guy was not the Lord's anointed. So, I think the Lord would be like, yeah, like I'm just kidding. But the thought of, man, I need someone else's eyes on this thing and I need perspective and someone who's maybe been here before. And I called one of the mentors in Forerunner and I said, hey, let me just interrupt your entire night and walk you through my history with this guy. And he just opened up to me and walked through and just gave me a lot of care and saying, you know, it's okay that you're where you're at and strengthen me and prayer. And I think that's something that we all need to hear when there's any friction in our relationships. It's like if there is uncomfortability in my marriage and I never talk to anyone about that and I lose sight of what's going on and why God's placed me in this relationship and what my calling is is a husband and how to show up. Like that has very drastic effects on my family line that if I don't have somebody say, hey, like it's okay to have conflict. It's not okay to stay where you're at and you need perspective. So in any relationship, uncomfortability, don't stay there but recognize there's a purpose for it and there is an opportunity to grow. - Man, I remember I was probably married three or four years and I had this guy who was one of my mentors. We grew up coffee every month or so and he was a therapist. And so one day we're sitting there and he's like, how's it going with your marriage? Well, it's great, man, we don't ever fight. We just, things are fantastic and he kind of takes us to some of his coffee. He looks at me and he goes, I don't think that's as good as you think it is. I'm like, what? And he's like, well, if you're not fighting, if there's no conflict, then someone's not being real because the closer you are with someone, the more conflict there is, the more opportunity there is. And he was right over the next couple of years me and my wife uncovered some of this stuff and it turns out that she did have some things that she didn't like about how I was treating her or how I was trying to live life. And so we did some counseling and the next couple of years were terrible. Like we fought all the time and I was like, man, this is the complete opposite. And while I can look back and say that that sure was hard, man, it created trust and connection and now we're doing better than ever, but we couldn't have done that if there wasn't this conflict. And you said this, you said, when things feel hard, you're perspective, right? It's the past. It's remember what God has done. Remember his faithfulness. It's the present. It's why you signed up for this in the first place and then focus in on his kind of promises, remembering who he is, remembering hope, remembering what he talks about. And so, and man, you're spot on. It's so important that we don't do this in isolation 'cause in isolation, you die. You have to be open with people. You have to lean on others for perspective, to get their point of view on things, to receive comfort, to receive encouragement. And so relationships are uncomfortable on purpose. This is how God makes us look more like Him is through relationships, the same paper of the souls. That is relationship. And so, the thing about your mentee too is probably, they're gonna do something to make you upset on purpose, to kind of test you and to see if you're real. See if you'll leave, right? It's kind of this, they don't know that they're doing it, but it's this defense kind of mechanism. And so, let's lean into the, discomfort, let's not give up, let's stay engaged, let's remind ourselves that this isn't a time to withdraw, but instead it's a time to grow, and that God is faithful. And it's good. So, heart is good. - The thing that also helps us like acknowledging that this is probably hard for them, and they're not as mature as you, to understand that that is for their good. And so, if you're sensing that your mentee is uncomfortable in the sense that they're being challenged, like you can have a lot more grace for them because they probably never had them in tour before. They've probably not experienced this level of uncomfortability and there's a knee-jerk reaction that comes with that. And so, you gotta keep your cool and keep showing up and show them that the uncomfortability that they're feeling is actually something that they should crave, not something that they should try to avoid, get away from, because the rest of your life is going to be hard, but just because it's hard doesn't mean there's not benefit. And I mean, something that I have tried to be intentional is just like put myself in their shoes to be like, that was a hard conversation. And there may be some need to like pause and acknowledge the uncomfortability and cast a vision of like, hey, why am I your mentor? I'm your mentor because I love and care for you and I want to prepare you for your future. And I want to be a model. example of what it looks like to walk in a comfortability and growth. And so even just taking a moment to acknowledge it. And it's like, again, by design, growth is slow. Relationships are uncomfortable. So every, every boy needs to hear that because they're going to want the exact opposite of that. They're going to want things to move quickly. They're going to want the relationship to leave them feeling great. And it's not always going to be that. There's no such thing as a quick fix, man. No such thing. And I can remember, right, like, as some of you guys know, I grew up, didn't have that around. And yeah, putting yourself in the shoes of your mentee, like, man, here's a kid who has experienced a hard life sitting with a stranger who's telling them what to do. That's hard. So I can remember I had a guy on my board. You know, I was probably 28. So like, I wasn't a kid. I wasn't adult now. And this guy would just, you know, for my good, he would just wear me out. He would tell me all the things that I was doing wrong. And like, obviously his, his heart was good. Which is how, how he delivered the news to me. I did not jive way. They didn't land well, you know, I was insecure and got all these wounds. I had lunch with one of my friends, like, right after me and this guy had a big fight. And I was just complaining. I was like, man, this guy, he like, he's too harsh. He's too. And he's always focused on the bad. And this guy just looks at me and he's like, haven't you ever gotten chewed out before? And I was like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, I haven't. And he's like, dude, my dad used to chew me out all the time. And I get chewed out all the time at work. And it's just what happens when you're in relationship. And it was at that moment. I was like, man, I've never experienced that. And that's not a good thing. It's like, obviously, I'm not saying that you should be harsh with your mentee. You should. But, but, but like, if your mentee doesn't experience that conflict, that like someone disciplining or someone challenging, that's not going to go well for them. And so, and that is uncomfortable. It's, it's hard to have the hard conversation. So just know that last one, Murdoch, opposition is to be expected. I think one thing that you said to me that I thought was really profound is that verse, don't grow weary in doing good. Well, that's because the enemy wants to make you weary. Like, that is his plan. That is his job. And it's our job to stay filled up. It's our job to persevere to have endurance, which only comes from the Lord and other people. It's good. Yeah. And I mean, okay. So, so Hebrews 12, for the joy set before him, he endured the cross. I'm sure that the enemy wanted to forge Jesus's design to pay for our sins with his body blood poured out. But Jesus had a joy, like a heartfelt hope expectation that God was going to use that sacrifice to change the world and restore all things, put things to rights. And I mean, you have to believe that the entire world, the flesh, the devil was opposed to that action that he was taking and maybe even participating in his death. But the thing that I love so much is thinking, okay, I get to honor Jesus. I get to image him in being one who loves, who shows up, even when my mentoring is opposed. Because of my heart intention to see this boy fulfill his potential. But sometimes I think a mentor has to ask themselves the question, what is my cross to bear in this situation and then what is my joy? What is the thing that I am doing this unto? What is my hope? And not to get that caught up in, you know, developing an expectation that's unrealistic or whatever, but I do think that a mentor that lacks hope is seeking to control and control is never left to me feeling joy. It's only left me more insecure. I just put up cameras at my house and now I'm just like, I'm getting notifications about cats. And I'm like, someone's stealing all my stuff and it's just a cat like just walking in front of my house. It's like the, what is the thing that you're expecting? And if you're just trying to see control, then you're going to be, that's going to own you for the rest of your life. But in my mentoring, if my expectation is God, I want you to show up in this kid's life. And I'm going to do whatever it takes to show up and know that love is opposed. And I'm going to be strengthened because for the joy set before you, you endure the cross. And I want to aim at you in this. And so expect opposition that that's going to feel my mentor and relationship in each time. I'm pinning a wall. I was, I was talking to my kids this morning about the viral. And we're going through the, you know, good old be attitudes, you know, like that, what's a be attitude? I'm like, it means blessed. So today we talked about those that mourn. And they're like, why is the Bible want us to be sad? And I'm like, well, because when you're sad, when you mourn, you're confessing that there's sin in the world that things are broken that you need a savior that, you know, all is not right. And it reminds you of your need for God. And in the same way, like, it's okay to mourn the fact that this kid needs a mentor. Like, yes, all of us need help. I don't think that that's wrong. But for most of our kids, why they need a mentor comes from a, from a tough place, either they're, you know, coming out of a, you know, home where they don't have a data round or there's instability or they're experiencing something that kids shouldn't have to experience. And so it's okay to mourn the fact that there is opposition. And it's okay to be like, man, Lord, like, there's some things going on here that I don't like that aren't easy. But may that remind us of our need for a savior, may that remind us of why this work is so important and who the real savior is because it's not us, it's him. And so love will always face resistance. Why? Because we live in a broken world because there is hurt, there is pain. We do have an enemy. And that enemy wants to take out our kids. And he wants to take us out too and let's take out our marriages. And so there will be pushback, but remember your cross, remember your joy. What are you willing to carry? Who's going to help you carry that and what makes it worth it? It's good word, Murdoch. All right. So today we talked about three thoughts about not giving up spiritual formation is meant to be slow. Relationships are uncomfortable on purpose and opposition is to be expected. Any last words? Well, I mean, even just your thoughts on the Biavitudes is thinking about, you know, for a mentor, none of those things are like things to be earned or achieved. Like no one wants the mourn, but Jesus blesses those who mourn. And he, like no one wants to hunger and thirst for righteousness because it's like, that is a place of need and longing it. Like, I don't know, like he might as well just say, blessed are the mentors because that's what you're doing when you mentor. You are taking on boating against hope that a kid who for whatever reason has been dealt a hand of generational consequences that your desire is to enter in and be the one who blesses maybe what others would say is unblessable. And that's what Jesus does is his grace is poured out on you, the mentor, as you do that. And you'll see the face of God. I think, I think you can take that to the bank. Thanks a lot for tuning in to the Youth and Mentor podcast. Remember to share this with your mentoring friends, your team, your volunteers. We love you. you can mentor. You can. Thanks for tuning into the You Can Mentor podcast. Our vision is to raise up and invest in mentoring leaders who will launch and grow thriving mentoring ministries. 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