291. The Big Bad Wolf

You're listening to an ONO media podcast. Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder With My Husband. I'm Peyton Morelin. And I'm Garrett Morelin. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. Welcome back to spooky season. Welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you for supporting us. We love you all. We had a lot of good feedback on last week's episode. Thank you for listening. Thank you for enjoying. And thank you to Peyton for doing such a good job. That's what we got. Also, I think before we jump into your 10 seconds, we've added just another spooky sweater. Oh, yes. Yeah, we added a spooky sweater to our merch. Yeah. If you didn't get one, I want to check it out. It's just kind of cute little sweater that has a little ghosties, bats. I think, yeah, I think merch will be up for another few days. And then that'll be it to the next drop. Thanks for buying. Thanks for supporting. We love you guys. Also, I talked about how anyone who came up and said hi to us, I would say their names. Peyton and I didn't really leave the house the last week. So, we didn't really see anybody. So, I have no names to share. I did. Oh, you did? Yeah. Who? You don't remember their name? No. It was a long time ago. It was last week. Where were you? St. George. I was on my way to Garrett's. Oh, and Dutch Bros, right? Yeah, I was on my way to Garrett's pickable tournament. We're so bad at names. I feel so bad. Well, I think I would have remembered. It's just been too long since I remembered to bring it up. Okay. But I remember what she looked like. She was such a cute girl. She was a worker. She was giving me my order in the drive-through. And she was walking in the car. And then it was just me and Daisy. But Daisy was on my lap. And then she stopped and recognized me and Daisy. And she was so nice and kind and just had really great words. Honestly, it just made my day to talk to her and feel her excitement and love. So yeah, thank you so much for saying hi again. I just can't even believe at the end of the day that there are people who even want to say hi to us. It's always just a super humbling, grateful experience. You see us, come say hi. That's all I got to say. Don't forget. We love when people say hi. So if you see us, come say hi. And if you want us to, we'll shout your name out here. That's what we got. Or your description. My 10 seconds or your description. My 10 seconds. Sorry, guys, I don't have much. We went to Park City the other day, hung out there. A golf season's coming to an end. It's going to start snowing soon. It is cold outside. My body is not ready for it. But I'm also kind of excited because I love. Honestly, I love a hot drink in the winter. I don't know how to say it. Let's hop into today's case. Oh, also for those of you watching on YouTube, I did notice in last week's episode, "Garden Eye" are looking off-screen a lot. And it's because with Mr. Skelly here, we can't really see each other. So I noticed that last episode, we keep looking at the screen to make eye contact because we have a screen of the camera. So that's what we're looking at. I'm sorry, I'm going to try to be better at it this week. But I was watching last week and I was like, "Oh, we really were doing that a lot to talk to each other." Our sources for this episode are TheCinemaHolic.com, New YorkDailyNews.com, Oxygen.com, SupremeCourt.gov, UPI.com, CrisingCleanup.com, CaseLaw.FineLaw.com, and CaseLaw.Vlex.com. Now, I do just want to give a warning before we begin. This episode does include descriptions of fetal homicide and the murder of a pregnant woman. So please do listen with care. Now, I think one of the best parts of Halloween is that for one night, you literally can be anyone you want to be. You can put a costume on, make up, a mask. You can lose yourself in a different character. You can literally leave your house without judgment, without stairs, which for those people who typically don't feel like they can do that, it's sort of the best part. It's the one time of year where you can forget about your insecurities, your trauma, your pain, and just be someone or something else for a change if that's what you choose to do. But some people can take this too far. Many police departments say that Halloween is actually one of the most difficult times of the year for them. The crime rate typically goes up, burglaries, vandalism, assaults, and a lot of it has to do with the element of anonymity that comes with October and costumes. It's easy to get lost in a crowd when it is full of people who are also dressed up. And if you go somewhere publicly in October and someone's wearing a costume, you don't question it. You're just like, oh, well, it's October. Maybe they're doing something. So these people obviously can't run forever. Eventually, Halloween comes to an end. The costume has to come off. And when the suspects are left with nothing to hide behind, that is when the truth starts to surface and the real monsters do get exposed. So we are jumping back in time to 1984 in San Jose, California. 31-year-old Dorine Herbert is eight months pregnant. And she and her husband, Charles, cannot be more excited. Dorine is ready to give the new baby the upbringing that she had in Santa Rosa, California. Peaceful, loving, supportive. She's already been doing a great job of that with their four-year-old Diana. I mean, Dorine really is the kind of person who, when she sets her mind to something, she makes it happen. Once upon a time, that was becoming a physical therapist which she had studied and done for a time out in the San Francisco Bay area. The one thing that didn't quite work out for Dorine, though, was her first marriage to her ex-husband, Mike. But however, in 1979, Dorine found a second chance at love with Charles. His name, Charles Herbert, a carpet store owner, and she meets him, the two fallen love, and they get married that same year, 1979. Dorine moved into Charles's home, and they start their lives together, welcoming their daughter, Diana, the following year. And then by Halloween night of 1984, they are excited to take Diana trick-or-treating. Even though Dorine is eight months pregnant. So Dorine was probably feeling a bit tired and sluggish. When she saw her family the week before this, they commented on how pregnant she looked at just under five feet tall. Her sister joked, saying she was as far out as she was tall. But she, Charles and Diana, went door to door that night, anyway, is a family collecting candy, and soaking up the final moments as a family of three. And eventually, it started to get late that Halloween. The family returned home a little before 9 p.m., and Charles said he was going to run out to the liquor store to pick up something for a nightcap. So he told Dorine to lock up the house. He would be back in 15 minutes. Then her husband gets into his truck and drives down to the liquor store. Meanwhile, Dorine entertained a few more trick-or-treaters offering candy to the last stragglers of the night. She closes the door, ready to follow what her husband said, lock up, get ready for bed, when there is another knock at the door. Only this knock was a little bit more aggressive than the neighborhood trick-or-treater she had just been helping. Still, Dorine opens the door because it's trick-or-treater. There's obviously another trick-or-treater. But when she opens the door, she doesn't see little kids and costumes ready for candy. She sees a full-grown adult standing on her porch in a pair of mechanics overalls and a wolf mask. Okay, okay. So this next part is from four-year-old Diana. At this point, she remembers her mother looking at her and telling her to run and hide. So Diana runs upstairs at four years old and curls up behind a couch. And then the next thing she hears is like a scuffle and then her mother's screams. Oh my gosh. Now, back downstairs, wielding a sharp weapon, the wolf has barged into the house and starts swinging it at Dorine, cutting her open as Diana is listening from hiding spot behind the couch. Now, when she finally hears her mother's screams stop, that's when the man behind the mask goes over to Diana and says something. He tells her that if she says a word, he is going to come back and kill her too. So the attacker talks to the four-year-old. This is insane. Then the attacker leaves the same way. He just goes right back out the front door covered in blood and that's it. Just a few minutes later, around 9.15 pm, Charles returns home. He notices the front door is unlocked, which is already alarming. But when he walks in, he sees his home is a complete and total blood bath. Dorine has 8-month pregnant wife. Oh my gosh. Is lying on the floor cut open? Her hand has been severed from her body. Her hand has been cut off her arm. Meanwhile, Diana is still hiding behind the couch, and Charles in a complete day rushes to the phone to call 911. Only there is so much blood, he slips in it on the way to make the call. He also calls his neighbor Jenny to come over and take Diana the four year old out of the home. Meanwhile, he's calling 911, and he notices that his wife Dorine still has a pulse, but her wounds are so horrific, Charles knows that she doesn't have long. So he tries to stop the bleeding as best as he can, just minutes later the paramedics arrive, and Charles is doing what he can to help his wife. They load her into the ambulance, but when he asks to go with them, he is stopped by the police. They can obviously smell alcohol on his breath. He is covered in his wife's blood, so it's not really a good look for Charles. Not to mention, he seems completely belligerent with shock and grief. He's just struggling to talk. So they tell him, "Hey, instead of riding down to the hospital with Dorine, you're going to come down to the station to be questioned." Police handcuffed him, they handcuffed him, they throw him in the back of the patrol car, and make him sit there for the next hour as they continue looking at the crime scene. I just can't imagine. I would assume that is not, anyways, keep going. Well, the issue is if he did it, it's even more dangerous for him to go to the hospital with her. To get it is kind of a little bit. It is, it is kind of a complicated situation. If he didn't do it, he's sitting handcuffed in the back of a police car for an hour wondering if his wife made it to the hospital in his library, which is very disturbing and his baby. Yes, so meanwhile, Dorine doesn't even actually make it to the hospital, she dies in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, which means they are officially dealing with a homicide case. When police step inside the home, they quickly realize this is kind of one of the most horrific attacks that they in that place had to deal with. There's blood on the floor, in some places about an inch thick. There's also blood on the walls, the ceiling, there's cut marks on the ceiling from the weapon being swung overhead and back down, and this isn't eight-foot ceiling. So pretty quickly, police figure that whatever weapon was used had to be long, a sword, an axe. There's also velocity blood stains that show how fast and swift this person had attacked Dorine, and then they notice what looks like a doll lying on the floor in the house. So skip ahead 15 seconds if you don't want to hear this next part. I don't want to hear it. We'll skip it, or I'm going to close my ears. I already know what you're going to say. I can't. I can't do this, guys. Are you guys with me on this one? Or do you want to hear it? With the doll was also the severed hand. This is now a double homicide. They don't find a murder weapon or any real evidence of the attacker inside the home, but do understand what I just said. The baby is not with her in the ambulance. But then, police notice something on the porch. Next to the jack, a lanterns is a wolf mask that is just sitting on the porch. Again, police don't know the story yet. Okay, so they're not sure if this is just decoration. It looks a little out of place, but when they speak with four-year-old Diana, they learn a bit more. That night, a female patrol officer goes over to the neighbor's house who took Diana in as everything was unfolding. And she asks her some questions just as gently as she can. Diana tells her she didn't remember seeing anything happen to her mother, but what she does remember is seeing the wolf. Actually, this is how she tells the police officer, quote, there was a big bad wolf in our house. And when the female officer relays this information to the cops back at the crime scene, they start to realize things make a bit more sense. The wolf mask on the porch was probably the murderers. And as they talk to more witnesses, they get more confirmation that someone wearing that costume had actually been lurking around the area. A neighbor said that they had stopped by Doreen and Charles's house around 7 pm that night before going to a party at their son's school for Halloween. And when they left, they noticed a man in a wolf mask standing across the street watching Doreen's home. Now again, any other time, this would be weird enough to say something, but on Halloween, this was about two hours before the murders. Then there was another dad who was out trick or treating with his kids around 9 pm that night who claimed to see a man in a goofy wolf mask walking around the neighborhood and coveralls. They said the wolf was carrying a large grocery bag that obviously had something in it that looked like a heavy object. Plus there were more people that night that said they saw the big bad wolf out on the streets amongst the trick or treaters. So soon, detectives also find other evidence to corroborate these eyewitness reports. Back at the crime scene, detectives found what appeared to be bloody footprints leading away from the house and down the sidewalk. While the footprints eventually stopped, there were still drops of blood along that trail, drops of blood which they followed over the bridge and the pedestrian overpass. Indicating the killer not only likely hurt himself in the attack because the blood is still going, but he had escaped the crime scene on foot, maybe even living or retreating to a place close by. But obviously the question is how close and who was he? Now of course, this also calls Charles the husband into question. Later that night, he is down at the police station under interrogation which isn't surprising. He was found covered in Dorine's blood. Spouse is usually one of the main suspects. Not to mention, he was highly intoxicated when they found him at the crime scene. But then you have those footprints leading away from the home that wouldn't make sense if Charles killed Dorine all alone and then called 911. Like he would have left the property and then came back. Unless he walked over the bridge and came back, it just doesn't make sense. So police wondered did Charles work with an accomplice? Someone who could have killed his wife for him while he was at the liquor store. And so they're on like, they're on Charles. Yes. They start to go through motive is the baby not his, but all of these theories seem less likely when police learn of another potential suspect. It was someone who actually seemed to have a lot more motive than Charles. And that was actually Dorine's ex-husband, Michael Dennis. Okay. Now back when Dorine was working as a physical therapist, this is before she even meets and marries Charles, one of her clients was a lock-heed missiles and space factory worker named Michael Dennis. Now supposedly Michael had quite a few challenges when he met Dorine like hearing loss from when he was a child that actually caused him to stutter medical issues that kept him from socializing and dating as well as an eating disorder and depression. But Dorine, she accepts all of this. The two fell in love and got married in 1975. And the following year, they actually welcomed a little boy together who they named Paul. But it seems like the relationship was doomed from the beginning. They started having a lot of problems. There was definitely infidelity. So by 1977, just two years later, the marriage was over. The two got a divorce. And while Dorine got primary custody over Paul, Michael was able to see him on the weekends, Dorine then met Charles, moved in with him, got married, had Diana. And meanwhile, Michael moved just a few blocks away from them so that he could be close by and still see his son Paul. At first, Michael didn't seem to mind this shared custody agreement. He knew Dorine was a good mother to Paul. But it's time passed. There were things that just supposedly made him question that. For example, Michael said that he learned Dorine was smoking marijuana while she was watching their son Paul. There was also an issue with the swimming pool in Dorine and Charles' backyard. I guess at one point, the family dog had actually fallen in and drowned. And Michael told Dorine he really wanted her to put up a fence because he was afraid the same thing could happen to their boy. According to Michael, he even offered to help pay for it. Dorine did put up that fence, but it wasn't enough to stop a tragedy. In February, 1980, Michael dropped four-year-old Paul off at Dorine's house, even though he said Paul wanted to stay with him that day. According to Michael, he also had a bad feeling that something was going to happen, but he ignored it. After he left, Paul climbed the fence and jumped into the pool, even though he didn't know how to swim. I see. Okay. Now, allegedly, instead of jumping in herself after him, Dorine ran to a neighbor's house to get help. So, unfortunately, we don't know. so this may or may not have cost Paul his life. Doreen rushed Paul to the hospital after he was pulled out of the water. He was on life support for three days before he was finally pronounced dead. - Is that confirmed? - That she went to the neighbor's house first? - Yeah. - Yes, multiple sources say it. - Okay. - I mean, I guess. - I mean, I can't, okay. - Now, obviously Michael was never the same afterwards. Michael obviously blamed his ex-wife Doreen for his son's death. They argued over funeral expenses and the last of the child support payments. And eventually, things got so ugly that Michael brought her to court. He filed a wrongful death and personal injuries lawsuit against Doreen and Charles. Now, unfortunately, for Michael, the jury didn't side with him during that trial in 1982 so he didn't get paid anything. And after that, Charles asked Michael to stay away from his family and his home, now that his son was no longer with them. Michael stopped talking to Doreen all together and it seems like things began to fester. Michael alone and dealing with all of this stood in his emotions for the next two years, but in October of 1984, Michael had reached a breaking point. That month, he was laid off from his position at Lockheed and was forced to accept a lower paying gig there instead. It was clear to Michael's co-workers that he was not happy with this. And in many ways, it kind of felt like the last straw for Michael, whose mental health was now at a sharp decline. So after learning these details about Michael and Doreen's past and knowing that Michael lived just six blocks from them, in the direction of those blood drops mind you, they have a very good reason to visit him at his home a little after midnight on November 1st, 1984. So all of this happens very quickly. Like it's Halloween night and now it's midnight the next morning and they're already at the ex-husband's house. Around 12, 23 that morning, officers approach Michael's house and they notice that there is a light on in his bedroom. So they ring the doorbell a few times. He doesn't answer. So one of the officers back at the station calls Michael's home and is like, when he answers, yeah, there's police at your front door. It's then that the bedroom light finally turns off and they hear water running from the sink in his upstairs bathroom. - Oh, okay, well. - They're like, what is he doing? Why, when he answered the door? - I know what he's doing. - Eventually, Michael opens up the front door, lets the officers into the home. And when they tell him his ex-wife had been murdered, he says, quote, oh gee, really? He also has a bandaged up hand that's bleeding through the gauze. So it's a very current wound. When they ask him about it, he says, oh, I just had a kitchen mishap earlier. He was carving a pumpkin. He flipped the knife up in the air and tried to catch it, but he caught the blade instead. Sliced his hand open. What's even weirder? Michael consents to letting them search his home when they ask to? - I mean, I think that if he say no, he looks suspicious, so he probably says yes. - He seems 100% cooperative, even signing the consent forms. And then one of the officers asks if he has his ID and he's like, yeah, it's upstairs, I can go get it. The officer says, yeah, I'll come with you. So he follows Michael. And the officer says that that's when Michael turns around and just gives him this like lifeless look. According to the officer, it was almost like a demonic stare that just sent chills down his spine. - Okay. - The officer's like, oh, okay. So he follows Michael into the bedroom and Michael starts heading over to his bed frame. And the officer's like, something's wrong. Like there's something going, like I have a bad feeling. So the officer actually pulls out his pistol and says, Michael, stop, put your hands above your head. And when the officer goes to look behind the bed where he was walking, there's a loaded gun behind it. He's thinking either Michael was about to pull it on him or himself. So he leads Michael back downstairs. And meanwhile, the other officers have noticed blood drops all around the house, particularly leading to the washer that was in the garage. They also find blood on the handle of Michael's truck, his steering wheel and the ignition. They find a pair of blood stained jeans. And that's when they tell Michael, hey, you're under arrest, you're going to the station with us. And as they are leading him outside to the police cruiser, they notice another thing. It's the crime scene unit coming around the corner. They claim they had just followed the blood drops from the crime scene over that catwalk, just like police had done, but they kept following them because they are crime scene workers. - And it led to the house. - Led them directly to the house. - That's pretty crazy. So now police have two suspects in custody, Charles and Michael, but looking less likely that Charles was ever even involved. Plus, his story is lining up. Charles says he got home, saw his wife on the ground, attempted to give her CPR, slipped in her blood. He also insists he was at the liquor store when the crime took place. So the following morning, when the store reopens, police go confirm his alibi. And the cashier was actually working the night before and says, yeah, Charles was here buying cigarettes and beer between nine and nine thirty the night before. They also have a receipt and video surveillance footage that confirms he's there. And with that, Charles is obviously cleared and sent home to be with his daughter. And that same day on November 1st, Dorine's body was sent for an autopsy. It was believed that Dorine had died from wounds inflicted with a heavy, sharp sword-like instrument with a long blade. Now, aside from the cuts to her hand and abdomen, there were also strikes to her head that had actually penetrated her skull and brain. That day, they get an official search warrant for Michael's house. This means they can now send the CSI team. Obviously, they do a little bit better job, they collect blood samples, they begin DNA analysis, but the blood isn't the only thing they find. In an outhouse on Michael's property, police also discovered two homemade coffins with weights attached to them. So it looks like these coffins would sink if they were thrown into a body of water. One was slightly smaller than the other, which makes it seem like it would maybe be for a male and a female. And then in the garage, they find something even more telling. They find a cardboard sheath to a machete. Oh, my gosh. This sheath is 18 inches long. I think you're gonna say something else. There was even a receipt and a price label still on it from a home improvement store just three blocks away. Now, while the machete itself was nowhere to be found, this allowed detectives to go and purchase an identical model. And when they took it back to the crime scene, they found that it fit perfectly into the grooves that had been left on the ceiling at the crime scene. - I mean, it seems pretty open and shut black and white. I mean, he had a motive. The motive was that he think she was responsible for the death of their son. So he went and killed her. And I mean, it seems open and shut it. - Right. - Yeah. So, police actually present all this evidence to the district attorney, hoping they can officially just bring charges against Michael for murder. Back then, a suspect had to be charged within 48 hours of being arrested or he had to let him go. So the clock was ticking. But the DA comes back and says, I don't think you have enough evidence yet. - What? - They wanted to wait for the blood analysis to come back before they made any moves. Which, I mean, I get, but I think if you let him out, he's either gonna run or kill himself. - So after two days, Michael Dennis is released. He was under constant surveillance by police until that blood work came back. In the meantime, police continued looking for evidence to build a case against him. And luckily, there was a little black book they found with several of Michael's contacts. Now, one of the bigger mysteries they were trying to solve was, did Michael wear or own a wolf mask like the one that had been found on the porch? They wanna tie this wolf mask to him somehow, concretely, because they think, I'm gonna assume the DA thinks that if they can prove it's his, that will really sway the jury because it's kind of a sensationalized part of this story. It was left at the crime scene. So detectives start going through his contacts, calling people to ask if they'd ever seen Michael wear this kind of mask. And they landed on one friend who says, actually, she was at a Halloween party with Michael the year before, and he came dressed as the big bad wolf. So they ask if she has any pictures of it. She says she does. Police make the drive up to Livermore, California about 30 miles from San Jose to retrieve these pictures. And in them, a man is wearing the wolf mask that they found on the porch. However, when police show Michael the picture, he's like, that's not me. And he's smart about it because it is really difficult to prove that the man in the mask at the party is him. I mean, they have eyewitness testimony. - It's just like at this point, I mean, you can go ahead and keep denying it, but the blood is going to come back as him. - So because he says it's not him. They didn't. decide to try and find the jacket. It's like a gold or tan jacket in the picture. They're like, maybe we can find it in Michael's closet. So they raid his closet and they find the exact outfit that he was wearing in that picture. Question now is, why would Michael just leave the mask at the crime scene? Like, it just seems a little weird. Turns out Michael wore glasses and he most likely had them on underneath the mask. Now once he got blood all over his face, he probably couldn't see very good out of the tiny holes of the mask because there was most likely blood on his glasses. So he probably ripped the mask off to see better when he was making his way home when he was probably in a panic. Now finally, four days after the murder, the DNA results from that blood evidence comes back. Turns out Michael's blood was found at the crime scene as well. And evidence of Dorine's blood was found inside Michael's home, too. So on November 5th, 1984, Michael was arrested a second time, now charged with first and second degree murder for killing both Dorine and her unborn child. That night, Michael waved his rights and even agreed to have his interview be taped, though he still denied killing Dorine in it. They would take another four years for this case to go to court. - So annoying, it's just annoying because just wasting time, money, all the above. - So when trial comes, there is a bit of a surprise because he pleads not guilty, but he only pleads not guilty to first degree murder. He's not denying the crimes altogether. He's just trying to get a lesser degree. - Like second degree or manslaughter. - He's trying to get voluntary manslaughter stating that Michael was also a bit mentally ill. So here's the story the defense says. On that Halloween night in 1984, Michael saw kids trick or treating and remembered how heartbroken he was over the loss of their son Paul. So that's when something ordered to the defense took over him. Michael decided to carry out an attack on Dorine. He figured Halloween was the best night to do it 'cause he could wear a mask and it wouldn't stand out. He said that when he got to Dorine's house and confronted her, he had no idea she was pregnant, even though she was definitely eight months pregnant, was obviously showing. To show that this was not a calculated premeditated murder, the defense called several eyewitnesses who said that he was just a good-natured, quiet person. He did not seem obsessive. Now one of the most heartbreaking moments at this trial is when they called Deanna who was now eight years old to the stand to have her testify about what she went through. She says not only does she remember the man and the big bad wolf costume entering the house that night, she also does remember her mother calling out the name Michael during the entire fight. Deanna also recalled how he told her that if he said anything, he would come back and hurt her too. By the way, while Deanna was testifying the judge actually ordered Michael to put his head down on the table so that he couldn't look at her. While she was talking. - Okay. - Which honestly should be implemented for children who are testifying. - But like blindfold them or something. - Because it's scary for children to get up and they kind of understand what's going on. Now between Deanna's story, the images of the horrific crime scene and the gruesome manner in which Dorine and her unborn child died. I mean, to take a child out and just leave them on a floor. That's a different level of cruelty. That is very, very intense. The jury was not going to let Michael off easy. Despite wanting to get away with voluntary manslaughter, the jury found him guilty of the original charges of murder in the first and second degree for Dorine and her baby. - Wrought in prison, my man. - Michael was sentenced to death the following month. However, when the state of California, obviously, was like we're going to put a pause on the death penalty. Michael's sentence was changed to life in prison without parole. 41, Halloween's later. The 73 year old Michael is now still behind bars. Deanna, now in her mid 40s, says that her dad Charles was really shattered after the loss of her mother. He blamed himself for leaving her alone that night. But Deanna always reminds him, hey, if you were home, you might have died too. She's like, I might have lost you too. Deanna escaped a real life monster, that Halloween. But she also helped catch one. It's because of her testimony and her bravery that Michael Dennis is trapped behind bars. And while he's taken a lot from Deanna, she doesn't want him to take anything else. And that is the story of Doreen Herbert's murder. Crazy. That's insane. But he's still rotten in prison. These next few things I'm going to say are just observations that I made, not things that were listed. But for him to come in and say, this wasn't first degree murder, what were the coffins about? Because that death, two coffins with weights on them definitely feels like there was some type of other plan scheme that he had been making up in his mind at home. And then the fact that multiple eyewitnesses saw him loitering around the home the entire night, two hours before the murder. Is that not premeditated? Is that not enough time to count as first degree murder? He could have walked away at any point. So I do feel like it's just a little silly that he tried to come in with that. And also something I want to reiterate, using mental illness or grief or tragedy as a reason to kill someone can be a reason, a motive. It doesn't justify murder. Also, it does get frustrating when a lot of people use it and they aren't. Like it's not even where they would never have otherwise ever claimed themselves to have mental illness. But when they know it might be an escape goat, they use it. That's also frustrating to me. Also, mental illness doesn't mean you're going to commit murder. There are plenty of people who struggle with mental illnesses that know right from wrong. So even if you're depressed or whatever it is, it's a very far line to the level of like edgene that we were talking about last episode. All right, you guys, that is our episode, our Halloween episode for this week. And we will see you next time with another one. I love it. - I hate it. - Goodbye.