#28 - How Insights and Transparency Can Save Independent Promoters with Jen Lyon

(upbeat music) - Well, thank you so much, Jen, for coming on the podcast. We kinda go back now. I think I can say that. I've been working together for what, six years now or something like that. Did you come on the president like? - Do you feel like I'm only ever hard on you? I'm like, I need this thing. (laughing) I want other, like I'm such, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like a real brat with tech. - No, we love you, we love you. It's funny, people think, the people who think that their heart on us are like, have no idea to just how loud the voices can get. And then like, oftentimes the loudest voices are kinda like, oh yeah, I'm just, you know, we love you, but I don't know, it's in this normal. It's like, anyway, you're great. We definitely love you guys. - And it's nice that, I mean, when I started, we were using like Fowmaker Pro or something to track our offers. And our, I think actually, I've been on your team because I want you guys to be more CRME, just putting that into the ether. Because I, I love that. - I do, I want that too. - Yeah. - I really want that. I mean, I think, I just remember like, it's like a new buyer. How, one, how hard it was, and this is just the thing to say 'cause we were just talking about speaking to the masses. Like, I remember not knowing how to send an offer. I remember I asked like my elders, right? I was like 21 or whatever. And I asked like the men who were supposed to be mentoring me. And they ignored me multiple times, 'cause I think they didn't want to share the knowledge. - Oh my. - Like literally we're all working for the same company. And they wouldn't even share how to send it, how to make it offer. Like, which there's like theories and ideas. And so like to go from that in my life, then to like a prison, which actually contemplates our actuals and what we're doing. And you know, like. - Yeah. - It's perfect film for doing this. - Yeah. - Well, and with prison, it has to be like, okay, here's like little idiosyncratic ways the industry works and that, you know, and like we have all these little idiosyncrasies that add up to our little extra thousand bucks a show 'cause we're like desperate to make money. Like the story of being a promoter in a venue is you're just hustling till trying to like figure it out, right? - No, and that was sort of our initial selling points too that we don't like really talk about often. It's like actually put it, forcing yourself to put this stuff into a system and like really ironing down like, what's your budget on everything? I mean, it, you know, it's definitely one layer of defenses. Like if you're not, if you're not meticulously tracking the stuff on a spreadsheet and you switch to something like prison, like, there's definitely a river of pennies that you can pick up that like lead to a real, you know, amount of money. Yeah. - Well, and I think that like-- - I love that we're jumping in by the way. This is great. (laughing) - Well, I was like looking, I was working on budgets this morning and I like, I get, I indoctrinate a lot of people to prison, you know, 'cause I'll have clients and I'll be like, well, this is what we're using, friends. And they'll-- - Love that. - And these are, and most of these clients are my, are venues or people who are like still on Google Calendar, you know, and you're like-- - Once you get on to prison, was it 2018 or 2019? - I don't know. - Just because pandemic were sure. - I don't know. - Between all those years. It was right you guys started, I'm sure. - Yeah, I think it was probably around 2018. Yeah, it's come a long way since you first got on, huh? - Oh, yeah. I'm now using the rental function as a big part of my life. These past days. - Nice. - I'm really excited about it. (laughing) - I love that. I love that. - Well, it's important. - Well, and we just launched insights. And I know you're a big fan. - And. - We haven't talked about it yet, frankly. So here, a lot on the pod. - Yeah, I've heard from the team. - People haven't on the pod, that's at all. Are people talking about it or no? - No, no, I haven't talked with you about it. We've talked about it in the podcast. Yeah, but I'm excited to talk to you specifically. So give me your spill. You're telling me-- - My spill. - You're a fan of transparency, yeah. - That's true. - I believe that like, I mean this in a loving way. I think there's pluses of minus to this. But, and in my career, I've done both, right? I started, my company, Mean Red, started as underground promoter, super DIY, non-inlegal spaces, right? And then now I'm in a lot of legal spaces, but also I run a DIY venue and Detroit. So I'm always kind of riding the line a little, the dogs. And I think that our industry sometimes is too willing to go in and out of buttoned up. And so for me, the transparency piece is, I don't think it should feel like magical thinking to land a show or magical thinking for me to off in a show, you know what I mean? Like there's kind of like all often asked agents and managers, hey, can you send me history? And I'll get some response back that's like, well, don't you believe in this artist? It's like, what does it even mean? Like, yes, like when I buy a Volvo, I believe in the Volvo. I pick the Venn number, like it's not, you know what I mean? You're asking for $20,000. I can you just-- That's astonishing. They say that to you. Oh, don't you just-- Oh, my God, it's so herbal. It's trust me, bro. Oh, it's so offensive because you're-- And then sometimes I'll say crazy things back. Well, like, do you have a spare $5,000? Do you want to go in with me on this show? Or like, is this-- we're doing this for fun now? Like, it's just-- I don't-- so the transparency piece, you know, Pulse are probably used to have a lot of data a long time ago. Now it doesn't. And so then I'm also holding data from Ticket Cell AI has data, and you guys have data. I just want to look at it and say, OK, well, look. Because I want to book the act. And then I need to go to the agent or artist and say, hey, I think you guys can do around this, but I can bring an extra this amount to the table. And that's why you should go with an independent promoter, right? Is we're going to think and work and beg and plead the world to come to these shows. So the thing with insights is hopefully the transparency is like-- I just hope that artists get to the place where they want to be transparent. And that's how you can buy shows and book shows. And people should say, yes, that artist only did 500 ticks last time. But Jen, he just put out a single or whatever, and we think that work can happen. And then how are you going to get there, Jen? And then it's like on me, right? That's my job. So those more tickets. So I don't-- I'd like to see us get to a negotiation space that is more thoughtful about the fact that we're all-- like that the agents and us are in the middle, right? There's a reality there. None of us are not the artists. But we have to make everyone the money. So how are we going to do that in a way that has just more transparency? And I think they're the people that transparency, as I said, when we were kind of thinking about stuff to chat about, I believe a lot of the transparency issue keeps a lot of good business out. Because we don't have transparency. You don't have as many women and minorities in the business because it's so high risk. Like it's crazy high risk, these things. It's a interesting connection there. Yeah, I think-- yeah, that makes sense, for sure. You know, I started really-- when I started thinking about, if I wanted to take on investors or not for one of my venues, and had to really learn about that, because I've always just funded my own everything for better or for worse. Janky is sometimes perfect as it is sometimes. Like what I learned was that people want to give money and opportunities to people who look like them, right? So maybe women with men, men with men, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, honor down the line, right? Because you want to do business with people you feel comfortable because you're nervous because it's high risk. And women tend to be less high risk with investments. So to me, it's like, well, how do I carve out a place in this industry that's a better fit for different kind of people's skills, different kind of curators, different kind of-- and I think that's a lot with the venue working on Detroit. I've now decided it's going to be a nonprofit, and then I'm going to have a different group of curators because I want to create a different space and have different question-the-gatekeeper issue, bring in other viewpoints more comfortably. So I think that-- but I think is I wonder, is anyone else sitting in the venue of this stuff? Are the agencies thinking about this? Are the management companies thinking about this? Because we're all-- like, we younger people are not super excited to be in our business. And I feel like we're hearing that across the board, right? People in their 20s and 30s are like, yeah, that looks really stressful. Yeah, I know kidding. But do you maybe have more people on your side with tech? Do you have more people who are excited because you're tech? You know, that's interesting. What you're-- I mean, I'm kind of caught up on that point there that the younger generation is not like flooding into the industry, I think. Yeah. I'd love to see like cold, hard data on that. But-- Me too. It's a fascinating point. I mean, is the industry getting easier or harder? It's certainly not getting easier. And I think-- Kind of percent harder. For sure. And I don't think insights alone can save it. Save it. But I'm glad-- I'm glad to see you. Come on. I know. I'm glad to be playing my part to a certain extent. And if we may just sit there for a second, like that's a beautiful perspective that having a healthy level of risk taking in this industry can lead to more-- Yeah. --diversion and diversity and inclusion. It's a really fascinating point that I hadn't really even considered, frankly. But I do think it is-- no matter how much data that you have, if insights was perfect and everyone reported to insights, and we combined it with some AI synthesis analysis, we looked at the past ticket sales data and social media data and Spotify data is going. So 8,000 R guarantee is less risky. 10,000 R guarantee could still make a profit. But therefore you should do the show. We'll never know for sure. And then even if insights gets extremely good at predicting how many people are going to show, there's weather. there's like, you're neighboring. and you booking something extremely competitive. Like there's so many factors, and like the risk then just kind of falls on the people that are buying the show. And the artist takes on plenty of risk to going out onto her and without the artist. You know, there's, it's like literally the core of the whole industry. But you know, that's what we're trying to do here. It's just like help make this whole thing, you know, more sustainable. Yeah. - Well, I mean, the way Prismarks too, you can kind of think about tracking your success as a buyer too. Like, look at my numbers and I was like, oh, that year was good. Oh, that year. And then I'll look, how did I make that mistake? Oh, fuck, that's how I made that mistake. Why did you, you know what I mean? And I'll like wait at the end of the year. This was my blind spots or whatever, you know what I mean? - I love that you do that. And I'm interesting. - I'm really, and then, and I'll have like, I'm also a little like juju about it. Like there's people I make money with and there's people I always lose on. And like, you know what I mean? And I have to like, I literally send a list off into my booking assistant. I'm like, if I started a conversation with that person, you best stop me. So I make every time I'm around this style and music or this kind of whatever. - Yeah, and I think that's a major case that like, oh, I'm sorry, I cut you off. Is that? - No, you're good. - Okay, I feel like that can be like a podcast can just turn into moments of like people jumping in and being over caffeinated and, you know, we could either do that or not either way. But on that point specifically, like I actually think there's a major case that insights like deeply benefits the agents and the artists, if they buy into it because they're buying into this idea that transparency is good. And like they want to make money with you. And, possibly like, you know, if you don't want someone to understand the true financials, the true history, you know, leading up to this event and they want you to take risk without it. Well, you know, I hate to, I'm not exactly being charitable and saying this, well, like maybe there's a bit of a nefarious kind of perspective there. Or like, or lack of a zero sum game, you know, yeah. - Like I was emailing, I'm emailing agent recently and was like, hey, I know this artist is asking for more than their worth. Like I was just like, said it. I was like, but if you think it'll adjust, here's, you know, I have a group when we want to do a couple shows. Just being like, and he was really lovely and he's always really straightforward. He came back and he's like, no, but still too expensive. Like just being like, he knows what I'm looking for. You know what I mean? And the truth was if I like, like sometimes you'll want to like offer to, like you'll have a way, some magical reason to pay too much for a show or whatever, you know what I mean? But I think that you just have to be able to say that honestly or like if an artist, like, - Yeah, it's because I was wide open about that. Yeah. - Yeah, and that's okay. Like I'll totally buy shows that like make no sense financially because I'm like, well, it kind of meets this other goal of mine, you know? - Yeah. - And push into this or that. But I think, but if you could start saying that more often and if artists could kind of even say, hey, look, and the other piece of it is if the industry can say that to the artists, right? So like another piece that I think happens a lot is I see, for example, in like Afrobeat when it launched in the US and in hip hop, like there isn't a lot of those shows go to live nation, they offer in certain ways, those agents and managers and labels handle certain artists in certain ways. There's a lot of like problematic inconsistency across the board of how artists are communicated with and told about their careers, right? And I think because again, we're unregulated as an industry, like it just kind of keeps happening, right? And like, and I think female artists know that all the time, they'll hear one thing and they don't get the full picture, they don't get the full what have you. So I just think that if in general, the problem is this though, like we're still not even at a point where it matters. Like if someone calls people out, like I remember when the Me Too movement happened in like Hollywood or whatever, and I was working at like a nightclub at the time and I thought, well, how, look at those ladies are so lucky. Like they can call it out and they're not really, they're still gonna maybe get another job. Like that's not our industry. We can't call out people, we can't call out unfair treatment of artists or of, you know, you're talking about if like a high profile agent sticks it to you, you can't like it. Or it's not. We're not there yet, you know. Yeah. And yeah, and like little things, if you like see something happening with an artist, like I've watched artists cruise that I really get upset about, that I'm like, oh, that artist should have gotten this better advice or this whatever or this support or this, (imitates singing) Yeah. There's no, you know, you can tell it like fall flat, even if the artist's voice is out there. Like there's an artist I book who like recently called out her agent for dropping her. And I thought, it's so crazy 'cause that should have gone so much farther, you know? Yeah. Like, you know, people should have talked about it or we should have like all wondered, well this artist sells 300 tickets, why is an agent? You know, what does that mean? Or, but we're just not there yet. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I was just having this conversation or I was just making a post about it. When I try to explain hard ticket plays to my friends that are not in the industry, they just do not get it. You know, when they feel it back, it's like, okay, how do you make money? And like, how much are you risking every time? And yeah. So, and I think, you know, hard ticket plays are this kind of, it's like this funny paradox. Like in many ways, it's perhaps the heart and the meat or whatever you will, whatever now do you want to use of the whole industry? Like the, it's what makes, it's like the grease of the wheels, if you will, then there's private events and festivals and all these other kind of like, you know, things outside of heart ticket plays. But it's so hard to win on a heart ticket play that, you know, I think, you know, we're still in the process of introducing insights in a way where people are, you know, cool with it, whether it's an agent or even promoter is buying into it. And, you know, I think my perspective on it is, you know, I'm curious to hear your perspective on it, but my perspective is like, hey, like, can't we all disagree that heart ticket plays are just unbelievable, unbelievably hard. It's a part of the industry that, you know, perhaps shouldn't be sustainable, but somehow is through like the hair of everyone's chin. So why don't we do something that makes it a little bit easier? And like, what was your perspective when you first heard about insights? And I wasn't in those conversations. Did you jump in right away? Was there some resistance? And like, what was the resistance? And how did you get over it? I think we had any resistance. I think I just had to think about exactly who was going to access our data. I think I already am like paying for data from another source from like the Ukraine or something who has a bunch of data. So I'm like, always looking for data. And it's not that different than poll start was. Poll start could be-- I mean, there was things when I started that we had data. We had like, well, we always look for-- when I very first started was poll start numbers, which had more, I think, more smaller clubs and stuff. And then also we will look for spins per market. So like, we would be calling disc jockeys and saying-- Interesting. Wow. --even the cracker, whatever, right? Yeah. Like, we had data that now I can't access. Like, now I don't-- I don't get clean access to Spotify. Even if I have chart metric, I can't see every market. So like, what we did used to have, we don't have. So this is just a return. Like, they're used to be-- I love that. Like, and I-- It's interesting that we don't-- because we're not like creating like a unified industry, like, we're not unified like fighting for it. You know, and that's what I'd like to see change a little bit. Yeah. You know, you brought up the whole point about like, who will see your data? And like, that's probably the number one reason that people don't join is there's competitive concerns. And there's a number of things that we kind of say back to them. I can name a few of them. You know, one of which is we bring up poll star. And it's like, hey, we understand that there's a sensitivity to your data inside to the platform where you don't get access to platform unless you're sharing. So no one's looking at it. That's not also contributing to the benefit of it. And number two, you know, poll star is out there. And the agents are going to want to take the best shows and put it on poll star so that it could benefit them. So, you know, you don't have a choice whether your data shows up in poll star or not. So you might as well kind of join something that you can benefit from. And I think the last point that I'll make here-- and it is like a doorway into another part of the conversation is whether independent promoter share or not, live nation has an abundance of data. And they can make hard ticket plays work because scale. And-- Yeah, go ahead, please. Yeah. I totally think this is the problem, right? I don't think there's many other industries where a little company like mine is competing with a behemoth-like live nation, right? Like there isn't other industries where it's not like in the tech world. You have like a person who made an app in their bedroom is competing with Google. Yeah. Yeah. Well, sometimes you do. But I understand your point for sure. Yeah, it's David and Goliath. No doubt. It's your new Goliath. You can probably point examples in other industries. But like it's a fascinating point. I mean, it's like-- You're going-- Not where we're competing for the same thing. You might be competing for like-- It's literally me-- I'm like one show where they can just-- Yeah, where they can just like disproportionately offer and just buy out-- Yeah, that's unique for sure. Yeah. Kate Hennott is a great example. There's an art that I gave him one of his first shows in New York. I've got another shows with him. It's great. But there's no world in which I can compete with AG to get another show with him. I mean, I could go up and try to get whatever. I mean, maybe I'll win one show, right? But I'm directly competing with people who are just-- in a lately, by the way, need me to put Artisanne and to grow them. And then they also-- because that's kind of where usually the ones-- independence, you know what I mean. But we're not able to stay with them. So I think it's an interesting piece. And I think in particular, I would assume-- Zoom, the A.G. and Live Nation, do have a lot more ways to engage in best practice of booking shows and looking at data. And so I always, I'm like waiting for someone from their folds to come into the independent side and say, like, if someone like, prison was able to come out and say, "Hey, this is insights. This is the data you receive. This is how you could use all this data. This is how you could view all of your success. This is how you can, you know, like, from a statistics standpoint. Like, I would like to see it get to that level of like, "Okay, we have this data." But then what is it? Like, who is me? Like, because the only people who are using it in the best, strongest ways are Live Nation and A.G. And they have a bunch of statisticians on their payroll, right? Who are like, helping figure out. Yeah, and I'm much, you know, I don't have an insight look on like how much their, how much data science that they're doing every time they book a band especially at the club level. But I think the things that, you know, from a layman's view that I can see is, well, they have scale. Yeah. And that means that they can just keep, they have more data. And I mean, even with even with insights, is I think like, what's the more important thing for insights is that we put a level of like AI data analysis on top of insights or what the industry is telling me is just more data is better. And that's kind of guided our product effort. Like, when we launched, I was anticipating like putting on like AI recommendations, like pretty immediately. And frankly, we're still interested in that, you know, like, okay, you're looking at this artist. Here's 10 other artists that are like it. And all these are interesting. Yeah. But the overwhelming, the overwhelming, uh, ask is this more and more data, more and more data. And, you know, live nation has this data set where they 60,000 new events every year go into their data set. A.G., you know, whatever 20,000 events. And then they have the last 10 years. So I don't. Again, I could be completely wrong about this, but my assumption is that it's, it was far more powerful than the Harvard kind of MBAs just, you know, crunching the numbers and doing data science is just having history in the first place is just so absolutely key. So that's one of the things that we're, you know, mostly focus on. Yeah, just being able to see it. But I think also like, you know, for me, when insights came out is like, I think it's, how many people do you have sharing data now? We have I think 130 or so. Yeah. And how many youths do you have on prism? We, so we, there's a couple ways to break that down. So we, that's about 800 venues out of those, like 120 organizations that are, that are sharing in total. There's about 2000 venues being booked out of prism and 400 organizations. So we've got about a third of the user base on insights now. And yeah. That's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder like, I think it'd be amazing to get all of the prism users to get the data. And we've got to get together and have that discussion. Yeah, I don't have a, you know, we talked about having like a prism conference at one point. I mean, it worked really well when they did it with Ticket Fly and the Resort Fly. Oh, yeah. It was like, oh, yeah, we're all making a choice to be part of this. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I think that there's a benefit for all of us to have that discussion with each other, you know? Yeah, it's, it's, you know, with something that you said that I want to send back to is that, by the way, that's really cool that you did run the first-cade show, not a show. I'm going to copy an Austin like four or five years ago. I can't remember if it was pre-pandemic or not. Definitely one of those blurred, blurred moments. But this is another thing that I'm one of the more kind of aspirational sides of insights that I'm like curious about or even prism in general. But like, I feel like insights is addressing it more directly is eventually artists kind of grow a lot of independent promoters. And, you know, if there's, you know, this question of like, does, you know, it does the top of the industry have like a monopoly or a dual-oply? I actually think the bottom side of the industry like on the club level, like provides cover for that question. Like, if you take out the clubs and you just look at arenas, like there's almost an unequivocal monopoly, right? Like, I don't know about monopoly, but there's, there's like less and less and less companies that like operate at the bigger levels. And I think, you know, I think there is some kind of, you know, playing unfair with like, just getting, having really sharp elbows with how much money they're throwing at the tours. But then I think again, like the risk profile just goes up and up and up and up. And if you don't, it's a, it's a, it's an or a borrous problem. Like it's a snake in a snake's tail when you don't have the data. And then one person has the data and their data gets that gets better. And then the rest, the rest of the industry gets less and less data and gets further and further away from being able to book, you know, on the amphitheater tour level. And I would love to see just more independence going into bigger rooms and doing bigger shows. And, you know, I know, I know there's a lot of questions about this is how it is. And this is why that part of me is like, I don't know why not. Why shouldn't, why can't independence book out in arena, you know? I agree. And I like, I, it's definitely like one of my larger goals is to, you know, always have like a couple larger shows a year. Um, eventually I think I'm kind of, I think in New York, we have a couple independent promoters that are really big. We have a gardener and then we have tech support. So we have two over 5,000 cap rooms that are independent, operated, which I think is pretty great. Um, and I just think New York is pretty amazing in that, right? Like that we do have two total in New York City, you know, like just two, right? I guess I said if I'm sure, I got a lot of stuff full, you know? That's totally true. I mean, I think, you know, like there's a couple promoters that are always doing bigger arena stuff. Adam Torres does and there's a few others that kind of do, but it's not, it's not the norm. It's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're, you know, it's not the norm that you're be a little niche for a while. I mean, I think there's like, you know, we've been working on a lot of cannabis events and tying and culture in community. And there's just, you know, you got to look at it totally different, too, right? And then can you grow that? So it's like, can I get something now? And can I grow it? And you see if that works, you know? Yeah, super interesting. Yeah, that's a solid point. I totally hear what you're saying that sometimes it's kind of like, oh, you guys can, you know, just, you know, go after the bigger shows and, and that's what the art is once, right? The artist doesn't necessarily have to like make a bunch of like, we're going to make, when you're within independent, we're going to ask for a lot more for marketing, probably we're going to want to engage a little bit more, you know what I mean? Kind of way. Yeah. It's just more tranquille with the bigger, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's definitely an interesting kind of side of the industry. I, hear what you're saying, I do, I do still think that there's room for independence to do, to do more. We want the country. We want that. Yeah, I mean, another thing that people just assume too is that, you know, in the next 10 years, it's just still going to be a G and live nation, battling it out at the top. And maybe, you know, we, like, nothing goes on forever, I think, is a fair thing to say. And in the same kind of statement, I will say, oh, there's a lot of things that go on for a very, very long time. Yeah. And who knows? I mean, I could be, I don't think I'm anywhere near the end of my career, but I could be at the end of my career. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was completely different at the top. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same, you know, but I don't, yeah, what's your perspective on that one? Do you think 20 years from now, we're still going to have live nation, and A.G. battling it at the top? I mean, what I hope is that what I like to see is that there's like a different way of thinking about shows and events and culture. And I think that I think there's a course room for someone else, right? You just look at like what Burning Man does, for example, right? They like totally did it completely different than anyone else. I think that there's enough of us who are thinking differently about business. I mean, it's not necessarily my goal to like run some, you know, be part of some massive company that's competing at that level because I think the artists get lost in the sauce. So I wonder, you know, is there a world in which, you know, what does become more important? Like the niche stuff, right? Because the niche shows and venues can support niche audiences. Or for example, like Black promoters collective, like they're doing a phenomenal job of like buying tours and eating. And like, you know, I'd like to like see them win, you know? Totally. Oh yeah, Black promoters collectors definitely, definitely a good one. I'll just talk with them the other day. That's a really interesting point. Like if I could, if I could say like what I heard from what you're saying is, Hey, you know, one, one interesting question is how, how can promoters at the top, you know, become, how can there be, you know, a more independent promoters at the top? A different side of that question is what, well, how do we like fill the clubs more? You know, like how can the club level and the 5,000 capacity and below just be more kind of abundant? And, you know, what do you think about that? Like how, how, how healthy is that side of the scene? And what, on like a national level, can we do it like make that more and more of the sought after experience as opposed to like everyone born into the stadium for Taylor Swift? I mean, I think that a lot of the problem is that we're still sort of looking at it from one angle. So like to me a little bit of the solve has to be to think about how to do shows and events differently. Like, okay, you have a touring act that's going to sell a thousand tickets and book that. But do you also have, I don't know what the thing is, right? Do you have a niche community that needs a place to showcase new talent? And maybe they can only do donations at the door. Is there another way to look at the finances of our industry? Because we don't have any support from the government, right? Whereas in Canada, in Europe, they get government support as arts presenters. We don't get anything. So that means we need to be completely different about how we're thinking about the finances of every show and every event. So I think that that's a really important piece to create diversity and to create more programming is just coming up with a completely different way to engage in the finances of each show and into like the scope of each show. And then also like thinking, putting into perspective, like how do you do it totally differently? Like it's so great. There's so many daytime events right now that are happening. Okay. Well, if you just made a bunch of money on a daytime, dry sober party, can you now put on a free show at night because you have the space and you just made money? I think there also needs to be like just more push to be creative and to open doors all the time. Like, and I think that's a thing that we don't do because we're just like tired and scared and nervous, you know? And we're kind of walking out like if we get the big daytime show and we're like, this is so cool that we have a big wave and we're paying our bills with it. We're not like, oh, what's my give? What's my connection to the community? So I think if we can create a little more space in our industry for that kind of thinking, I think it would, that's why we all got in it, right? It's like we love, we love people. So how do we make sure that we're serving that like how are we? Because the, the piece is even in a for profit venue, 5,000, if you have more of a serving your community viewpoint, you're going to make and more of a mission statement like a non-profit would, which is probably who you are anyway. You're a thoughtful person who loves music, who fell in love with this singer songwriter or whatever. And that's why you open event, right? If you can think more about serving whatever community is you're in or all the communities that you're accessing, I think that we would all do better in creating better programming and diversifying. And that's what we need is to fill more time slots. So that's my perspective of how to change the viewpoint. I love that. Interesting. Well, we kind of just jumped into it, which was a ton of fun, but perhaps we could have started off with what, what, what you do and how did you get into all this madness? So why don't we, why don't we go there and, you know, obviously know you mostly from mean red and the shows that you put on over the years, but when did you get into all this mess? Like how do we all, how do we start on this journey? Yeah. So I was a waitress in New York at bottle service clubs. That's how I met all the big promoters. Oh, sorry. What year are we in? 2001, probably 2000, 1989. I was like 18, 19, and at the time. So I was working for the Baldwin brothers. They had a club and guys like Mark Robinson and stuff are playing there. And then I started to work at Joe's pub and Bill Bragan was booking there and Walter Durkats and search becker was kind of my mentor there. And so I just like was managing and doing bottle service and then like beg them until they let me book shows and beg and beg and beg and search luckily was. Search and Walter really were these kind of like OGs in New York and they really understood that like taking making a bet on a non traditional person at the time, like just, you know, being female, maybe non traditional like was the way to get to better priming like they lived that ethos, you know. And they, you know, in around a lot of the same time was like Ilhan Ersaheen doing new blue and you know, just like folks Larry Gold was at SOB's my friend Erica Elliott was there. There was a good solid sense in New York downtown that like if you support people who are non traditional communities that are non traditional like this is what's important. This is what you should do, right? It's so different now because the way music moves and money moves is so different now. But they anyway, they were really great at that. So then I worked for search for a long time. I did Joe's pub and two or five club and I opened a club called volume for him and and then finally in 2006, I guess I opened Mean Red and started and at the time I was, yeah, it just become like a mom kind of like out of the blue. A little bit of like a not planned and I was like, oh fuck. Well, I better start independent promoter when you're have a baby. I was kind of it. So I was doing a lot of underground parties and shows and we're doing rooftops and warehouses and stuff and then I opened a venue called the Brooklyn yard, which was on the Guanes Canal. Beautiful. And I think it was so mixed. I was in this little cocoon with surge and with those guys, you know, because they were kind of like my whatever nightlife. People who protected me and then when I went on my own, I was really shocked at how mean the industry was, you know, I think I was really like. I was really disappointed if I'm honest, you know, just to see like how there's a lot of scarcity thought and that a lot of people weren't going to let me into their venues and and what did I even know anyway about because no one was even really supporting me. So I kind of just had to like shimmy my way up. So I ended up doing a lot of shows at 88 Palace, this dim sum restaurant in Chinatown, like that's where we did Katerinawda. That's where we had Sophie. Like I ended up doing a lot of underground stuff, 1896 warehouse and, you know, just like kind of living in the underground to overground and that's how I got in. Let me let me double click on something when you said you were shocked at kind of the harshness of the industry. Can you kind of summarize like what you mean? And I'm curious as to like why you leaned in and why that didn't discourage you. Well, other people's issues are my issues only when they force them on me, right? I think at the time I really came from this viewpoint of like the personals political, right? Like so I believe in putting on shows. I believe in, I mean, the thing about serving your community is definitely like kind of the come from it sounds like a little trite or whatever, but it's really true. If I can figure out how to get a show on whatever it is, right? Like we would do pig roasts at the yard. We would do harvest festivals. Like if you can get people in a room together for a reason, it's, you know, it's, you just feel lucky and like, okay, well, this is, I'm lucky to be part of it. I'm lucky that I can like create a space where people to come and enjoy music. Absolutely. I call it there. So you just kind of stick with it and just hope and I think the harsh piece I think I thought who? You know, I remember like the first show I put on on a rooftop, like another promoter who was supposed to be a very like woke kind of promoter, like went down the line and told people that might the show sucked and to go to his show. And I just thought, no way. Crazy. Whoa. That's insane. That someone would have the energy to, you know, to be in hate in that way. And then I think I saw it over time so many times. And now if I'm very honest, it's just, look, it's a very imperfect industry. And I think as a female promoter, like you're just going to have to work harder and it's going to be more imperfect and you're going to have to just try. And the way I work is not, I mean, it's never as good. It's, I'm never I'm operating at a level that I think is good enough. And I'm always trying and I'm always trying to like solve for the like, there's a lot of just lack of like fair game in the industry and I'm always trying to solve for that, you know, and figure it out. And then I'm always trying to like still fight. So I think the fight has kept me in like last week I was talking to a security company because I have a queer event that I want to have an all female and non-binary security team, right? So I go to the security company and say, hey, look, I, this is a, I want a different security team. I want them all female non-binary, fem presenting. And the security team fights with me for 20 minutes because why do I think that women could keep security? And I said, but you hire female security guards. Do they not know how to provide security? Like, the security company kept pushing back and pushing back and pushing back. And I said, it was crazy to me, right? Like I'm talking to a company that hires women for a job that they're telling me they don't know how to do. So finally I said to the guy I said, look, you know, like who's winning the fight in your household? And he's like my wife and I was like, great, thank you. Thank you. So. But I was so angry at the end of that day and I thought, why? Because I just spend 20 minutes convincing people that women can do. So some of that stuff still like boggles my mind as a female in the business, but I'm still having to like fight these weird fights that are just logic. But it's also so telling that as humans, we're just, we're just not there yet. We're just not figuring out how to like optimize and have faith and believe, you know what I mean? Like we're just, we're not there yet. So I think that's, that's to me is a lot of like my battle is like, okay, let me just keep presenting new ideas and then keep getting people in a room. And if that's all I'm doing and then I'm all right, you know, I just keep going. Yeah, wow. I love that story and it's super interesting. That's that's that's the end of getting. Did you end up getting the security hire for that event? I gave them three weeks to find female security who knew how to beat people secure. Did you have the event? Yeah, I can't, sorry, I can't. Yeah. You did, how did it go? It's like this really well known party in New York. And is it working with all? You're now. Yeah. Is it working with all women security? I have, I've done it in the past and it's great. It's the best because it's so, you know, but this speaks to the fact that because we're in a people business, it's about the different. people have, people are drinking, they're partying, they're full. Well, like that also keeps our industry from really sometimes, you know, having like super high industry standards because, you know, imagine like, yes, we're putting on a show for how many people, but then we're also like running and people like me who are promoters. I'm putting on the show. I'm suddenly to get, and I'm trying to figure out and learn how to run an EMT group who's supposed to like help you, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of life and death in our every day. And I think that's just an adds to the difficulty in us trying to like do better all the time. Yeah, I feel like you got to, I mean, being a promoter is particularly hard. I did it for four years before starting prison. But, you know, just life in general, I feel like as I, as I've gotten older, I feel like wisdom is about just sense of humor, just kind of laughing at the silliness of it. I fully disagree. Totally. Totally. Someone once told me that if, like, "Oh, how come, what did they say?" I'm blanking on it now. Yeah, life's just not funny if you don't have a sense of humor, you know? Yeah, yeah. You just, you don't have to be like, just get through and be like, and that's the end of it. Oh, this shit show just landed on my plate today. Like, you know, okay, here we go. What else is going to fall through the roof? Well, we're not, not like in the ER. We're not saving lives. We're putting on shows at the end of the day. So it's also like not like, wait, why aren't kids like storming into the space? But, you know, I think just to take a divergence, you know, I think I can understand some apprehension. Oh, yeah, and you were asking about tech if, if, you know, the kids are kind of like curious about tech. I'm not necessarily like following, I don't know if I have the data to say it, but like, I will say I'm optimistic for the future of this industry because what gets automated by AI, what gets, you know, pushed to our screens, you know, you can't, you can't do that with live events. Like live events, perhaps are like the one thing that are resistant to the screen. You know, the more people are addicted to their screen and looking at the screens all day long, and then they get into like, I think the more refreshing a real world, beautiful experience will be as the era of like the digital like tries to consume more and more of our lives. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. But now we just-- Really valid point. Yeah, now we just got to make it work and make it sustainable. I mean, how have you made it work and sustainable over the years? Because you're, you know, 20, 20 years in or so and, you know, doing more stuff and more interesting. So through all the chaos and the fights and the, you know, funny situations, like what keeps you driving-- I don't think I-- on the rail, I don't think I've found my stride yet. I think I'm still in the like figuring it out part. I like-- I know that sounds nice. But I really believe in my heart that like-- Yeah, I love that. I just think a lot of now what I'm moving into is figuring out how to create a better business model for opening venues. And opening event, let's talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, I cut your-- I'm going to break it up. Yeah. So I cut your-- I'm going to break it up. I'm going to break it up. And-- And you're opening event, you know, let's talk about that. So figuring out to do it for a while and then finally just kind of put a model together that I think is really makes sense that I'm really working on now, which is about the venue piece itself being a nonprofit, the F&B and the real estate being for a profit. So I can kind of like work in all different ways, you know? And I think that then-- and kind of what Joe's pub was that model. And it was really great. And I know those like my first venue I was really booking in. But I really think it was-- the nonprofit piece are figuring out how to integrate. I think it's just more honest. And I think often I want to book shows that don't make money. And I want to-- so my idea with that venue is to more have-- not me as a primary booker, but to have a bunch of curators in Detroit who are booking shows. But be able to say to them, hey, you don't have to worry about make money. Just pick the best artists in this genre that you love and develop them. And we'll give bodies in. And that to me is like, yes, I have to do a lot of shows that make money cool. That's cool. But can I also figure out how to really develop artists in curators and other buyers? And I think that that's-- especially in a market like Detroit, which kind of mainly has A.E.G. and Live Nation. And for me, living in Detroit, I think-- I kind of always say, I live in Detroit, and I work in New York, right? I think that living in Detroit, I've really just learned that there's so many artists and culture purveyors that want to do things different and want to interact in a different way. And that's a lot of what I came up with as an OC Punk in Southern California is like we are not going to ascribe to mainstream business and capitalism and whatever else. We're going to do DIY shows. And that's going to be what the energy is. So I think that's a lot of what I think about with this venue is like, how do I just support and meet people where people are at? This artist doesn't want to get into the mainstream music business, but does want to put on shows. How do I support them? Because really at the end of the day-- How do I just get the show on? How do I make sure everyone's getting paid? So I think that model is going to really work. I love that. So to be clear, it is a nonprofit, like a 501C. The venue is going to be a nonprofit and the building and the F&B is for profit. OK. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Interesting. And that's how it's a joke-- Yeah. We start saying that, what did you just say? I thought-- But I was at Joe's shop. That was the model. We were the primary bookers, and then Walter Durkatson. I did a little bit of booking also. And then the F&B was Surge and Joshua Card. Surge, byron, Joshua Card. So it-- Oh, go ahead, go ahead. It works because you want to have-- and I'll say this-- like, one thing I really learned from that venue-- and then, for example, really got smenged at me from venues like Output. When there was a lot of us with strong personalities and opinions working towards a goal, we were able to be the most successful. And there's some venues that have more of a singular entity is booking it and making it. But my preferred model, for sure, is to have a chorus of very intentioned music heads or culture and arts heads, kind of putting it together. And I think in this model, it kind of allows for that a little more. Interesting. Interesting. So are you going to have nonprofits, supporters, or is there-- what's explaining to me like the finances of it? So there's like-- we'll work with grants for the build out. Cool. Fundraisers. But what I love in my life is like, every show I do could be a fundraiser. Great. See what I mean? Like, OK, cool. It's actually a fairly common model in the private equity-- or not private equity. There's an opposite private equity-- unlike the performing arts center level. A lot of performing arts centers are not-- and there are these giant buildings and extremely legitimate businesses and community staples. So we have the venue. I think-- I think how we like honesty about the mission, I think, is really important. And like, for example, OK, I used to work at Dram, which is a really amazing Turkish-don venue that's in the Lower East Side. Like, they essentially kind of have a mission, right? They're putting on a lot of world music. They're putting on-- they do a Gypsy Festival. They're putting on Turkish music. There's the most lovely, beautiful group of people there who are doing shows. But essentially, they have a mission. And it's a dope mission. And it's in the East Village. So there's the whole thing that's happening, but it's a for-profit business. Well, I think we need to start kind of being a little more honest sometimes that there is a mission when it comes to a space and a performing arts space and what we need to do to have integrity with artists and communities. So I think kind of being a little more like-- National Sadas, for example, is a nonprofit model. They're able, because they have this mission, they're able then to go back and raise capital to create a really amazing 360-sound system there. And just the aesthetic in the vibe of the venue is really, really beautiful and perfect. And they're able to do that because of being able to have-- let's say, here's my mission, and then to fundraise to that mission. Instead of saying, there's a difference when you're just putting on a for-profit venue. And venues are closing in New York, Brooklyn made. Why would-- then you like that that was so well-funded. Why is it closing? Paragon, right, venue-- there's just venues are closing, because it's hard. So I want to beat that system and come up with a way to create cushions and support and have it be-- It's an amazing revolving door of venues that come and go over the years. I made a nossin. It's just-- Yeah. I mean, 11 years have been here. The thing you have plans in the state, ever, right? Yeah, you do. Yeah, that's-- you root for those that they continue forever. But I guess I'm never-- I'm sad, but never surprise. And perhaps sad that I'm never surprised when I hear those announcements of venue closing, just because it is such a battle. It is a battle. And I think it does make me sad because I know that each owner who opened that venue was like gave everything. And all the bloods here is to the night. They just really gave a crazy amount of their all to get that venue open. And I want to have a way to support them to help them figure it out, you know what I mean? Because it's probably just like a little tiny thing, which things like Prism help, right? Because you can see data. Thank you. But can we-- I've noticed in Michigan there's more support from the state for performing arts. And I can't we get New York state to do that. New York state benefits weight, you know, weight of blood. large amount from our venues. Totally, totally. Totally. No, it is an interesting point too. When you look at the economic impact of these festivals or venues and then you're like, "Okay, they're surviving on their own. They're having disproportionate benefits to the city." And sometimes I wonder if economic impact surveys can even capture. What is awesome, Texas, with or without a lag music district, sure they can put a number of events. Oh, $180 million a year because this many people go and then they flood into the restaurants and then the waitresses have salaries and living wages. But again, what are these cities without vibrant culture and having more public money going into flooding and keeping these things alive? It seems reasonable to me, frankly. I mean, I think that's why in other countries, when I go to my friends who are promoters in Montreal, and we look at the music scene in Montreal, let's say, right? There's just more space to support more diverse artists or the pressure is different because the pressure we have here is just to sell tickets, right? So Austin's a great example of, like, would Austin look completely different if the state of Texas completely supported the venues and gave them space to book other kinds of artists? And I think Austin, I can think of a bunch of different communities that aren't served as much as they could be in the venues. So I think we'll see where it all goes. I think there's enough of us now that are really fighting for the industry to hopefully be supported. So I love it if it did a little. And all you want is a stubborn industry in the right way. It's kind of funny because Vendor, I went from being a promoter myself to selling to promoters, and I'm sure this won't surprise you, but amongst technology vendors, there's definitely a sentiment that this is a stubborn industry. There's people hold onto their dollars and they're very stubborn, but it's like on one end, okay, if they weren't stubborn, they wouldn't be, they wouldn't survive. If they weren't very careful with their money, they weren't very extremely like shrewd and watchful. I know, right? I mean, you have to see both sides of that. And I'm actually reminded myself of that now. It's like, yeah, these people are stubborn. It's like, why are they running a venue after 20 years if it's not? And stubborn is kind of a pejor, and stubborn could be probably as a pejorative word, but they're passionate. It just is another kind of the other side of that. Without this passion, it's like, yeah, okay, you'll just go do corporate real estate. Do the same things, switch out the characters and make a lot more money, but no, they want to like, those moments as you said earlier in the pod where you bring people together and it just makes it all feel good is why they keep hanging on and say, you know what? You only have one life. Can't bring the money with you. Even if I don't make a lot of money, but I can sustain myself, I could see myself doing this for the next 40 years and just, you know, it's like one of the purest things I think in this capitalist society is a music venue truly. I'm getting a little sentimental here, but anyway, I believe in that. No, totally great. It's like a lovely, from a small business place. It's powerful, right? Because you're moving, because you have so many different people you're touching all the time for sure. Yeah. But I think on the other side of it, we're like, you know, like insurance has become such a major problem. Totally. Fighting. We're fighting because there isn't enough support in the US for small businesses, right? Like we, all businesses make America essentially. To me, right? You think? But then we don't have a lot of support. And like it's a complicated system capitalism, right? And insurance is a big. It is complicated, isn't it? Yeah. Really complicated. Yeah. There's no, there's no perfect system. Yeah, without getting into a debate about capitalism and all that, all that kind of stuff. It has its pros and cons. Let's just say that much. Yeah. But I think no matter what, if like, if to take it back and then probably I should, I have to hop on another thing. Oh, no problem. Yeah, yeah. One thing that I do think is if we, the hope is that like, the, the, the transparency increases and the discussions increase. And so then in the industry, we're all just talking about how to put on a better show, right? Like if that's the crux of the discussion is like, I think then it'll just move us all forward because I think a lot of the discussion is how, like, it's about money, right? Like who can pay more, right? And I think that that doesn't always really honor our customers and it doesn't even always honor the artist. So I do think this piece about this constant, like looking at ourselves and like, and just trying to like do better all the time, you know, which is really hard and really uncomfortable. And we like, you know, get called out all the time for doing things wrong and for making mistakes and, but, you know, you look at avant-garde and I like wasn't able to open last week. I saw that. I know, but we're all rooting for them because you know, they took a big bite and they're dope and like they're doing a thing that I'm not. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. You know, so you just, you want, you want all of it, I want all of us just to like stay holding on. Yeah. It's funny. It's like the people in the industry that get it are rooting for it and then they're just battling an army of online trolls, you know, that are really hard. It's really, really great. Yeah. I think people think like when I think about a venue, like the ones I mentioned that closed or ones that are having struggles, I just think of like there's not that many people working there, like at the top to figure it out. There's like two to five very key people who sunk their entire heart and world in that venue, you know? So yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I was just literally just talking about it as one of my employees who was in New York. It's like, you know, they very publicly kind of owned up to some mistakes that they made with the vessel and whatnot. Yeah. And then they got like publicly owning up to mistakes. It's like, doesn't mean you're going to be perfect from that on out, you know? And in the next chance, someone gets, see, you haven't changed or whatever. You know. Come on, y'all. Why are we tearing each other down? Like, you know? Oh, I know. I've been thinking a lot about that too is like, well, how do you beat that? Like so many people have been canceled and so many people have been called out and, okay, but like that was a moment in time or like, what's the, you know, what's the, what's the next thing? Yeah. What's the way to solve? You know, what's the way to solve is like, okay, well, the transparency of communication about who we are and what we're trying and what we're doing as venues. Doesn't necessarily get us there. And we don't have a lot of money. But how do we, like, what is the, you know, I don't know what the fix is, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, what's the, what's the, let's end with this? What's the hope for the future for this industry? Oh my gosh. Just more promoters, more show is more venues, more artists thinking about independent promoters and venues. More. And thoughtfulness about how to work with independent promoters and venues, I think, on all sides, you know, and really, I think that all of us who are on the side of buying and booking shows and creating events can like need to just be more, like a know that we have to be more generous with others to bring them into the fold and to figure out how to make it healthier and how to make it better and how to make it a more viable lifestyle. For example, you know, I love that. Yeah, collaboration, for sure. Yeah. Well, Jen, thanks for collaboration over all the years, which seemed the best of luck with this new venue. Soup, thanks for coming on. Yeah, appreciate it. Best of luck with all the shows that you have coming up. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for your positive message. Yeah, this has been a lot of fun. Very interesting. Well, I'm trying to get all of your members to join insights for me. Yes. Thank you. I'm ready. I'm ready to compete with all of them. Yeah. Let's do it. All right. We'll have a great day, Jen. Appreciate you. Again.