Speaker 1I think it always comes back to being collaborative and great at communication because when you start to work with someone new, there's always going to be new experiences. There might be bumps along the road. So I know that's something that can be a little bit difficult to, you know, exactly judge right at the beginning. But that's why I think getting to know someone a little bit beforehand, you know, can be great. Welcome to the
Speaker 2Profitable Graphic Designer Podcast. My name is Katie Sandel, and this episode was brought to you by Aventive Academy, an online business education platform that helps brand, graphic and web designers get more clients, increase their pricing and build a profitable design business. We have online programs, courses and templates that you can use. And you can find out more about starting and growing your freelance design. Business at AventiveAcademy.com. We are so excited to chat with you. Could you introduce yourself and share who you are, what you do and who you help?
Speaker 1Yes. Hi, thanks so much for having me. My name is Natalie Gates, and I'm a website copywriter, mostly for small service based businesses. A lot of them. A lot of them are in creative, professional or wellness related fields. I also offer brand messaging guides, brand voice stuff. But basically, I help small business owners create website messaging that captures like the unique awesomeness of their offers and inspires more of the right leads to reach out to work with them.
Speaker 2Yeah, I love that because there's so many business owners. They just have the same copy on their website. It's like, oh, I'm going to help you with this. OK, sounds cool. Nothing stands out. Tell me more.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly. That's what we try. On and on.
Speaker 2Yeah. So our topic today is more about like how freelance graphic brand and web designers can get more clients by collaborating with copywriters. Like in general, like, why do you think it's a good idea for designers and copywriters to collaborate?
Speaker 1Yes. So as designers, you probably know that good copy needs good design and good design needs good copy. Like they both need to be solid to really make the impact that you want it to. So in terms of collaborating designers and copywriters. I think basically when everyone's on the same page in terms of like the vision and the strategy, it just results in a final better product overall and often a better experience for the client. They're less likely to have to play middle person if depending on how closely you're working with one another, of course, and how you do that can vary, which we'll probably talk about a little bit more in a minute. But basically when they're collaborating, there's just that communication open where the designer and the writer can bounce ideas off one another. Simply make sure that both of their needs are being taken into account because they are focusing on different things, you know, they can communicate and ask questions. Because when you think of like some of the big creative agencies, they often have both the both sides working together, but freelancers can benefit from it, too. And also, like if you're collaborating earlier on in strategy, depending on what exactly you do, you're getting two brains on the initial strategy at once, which is always a win. You have that like really copy focused advice. And the design eyes on the same project, which is just powerful and I think in general better than working totally in silos.
Speaker 2Yeah, definitely. And I know when we like at least in the past when I was just when I say just a freelance designer, I mean, before I had a branding agency, when a client would come to me like, hey, we're looking for web design. And I'm like, OK, sounds good. I would love to help you because I was, you know, I'm a good designer. And then I have help from web developer. And then I ask my client, can you send me a copy? And then they send me something that makes no sense. So I like whatever I design, it just doesn't feel good because it just doesn't doesn't go together. You know, they can have the best looking website ever. But if it doesn't talk to their ideal client, then I didn't really help them get to the next level.
Speaker 1Exactly. And the same thing can happen with me if I work with a client, but maybe they're DIYing their design after. And some people are, you know, they make it work. But. There's always the worst case scenario where I gave this copy I'm really proud of. And then, oh, it just crumbles because of the visuals, because obviously the design is so key to making people actually engage with the copy. So I know the feeling in a way.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. Just from a different perspective. Yeah. Yeah. So how do copywriters and freelance designers like typically work together on a project? Like, what does that look like? Or maybe you have an example from your business that you can share.
Speaker 1Yeah. So I've worked with designers in a few different ways. And there are lots of different ways to go about it. I'll kind of talk about two main ways that I've done it and that might work for others. At the very least, if I'm not like officially subcontracting for a designer, like the client is paying us both separately. Maybe they've hired us both separately, which is often the thing. I at least always encourage clients to connect me with their designer so they can get in touch with me if they have questions about the copy. Maybe they need to ask me if there's something that can be cut or they're like, wait, how did you envision this? I can also, if it's available, like review the copy once it's been implemented, just in case there are changes, I can request directly linked to the copy. Always up to the designers, like creative discretion and expertise, of course. But, you know, it's having that final chance to see things and design and communicate as needed is super helpful. Basically, big thing there is just having open communication and a connection. But then the other, you know, totally kind of different way that some people might be interested in is, and there are a couple of designers that I do work for where I'm more officially working on their projects. So like they're getting the client and the client is paying the designer who's paying me. So in those cases, in my experience, at least for one awesome designer I work for, I'm working basically under her brand. So from the client's point of view, we're kind of versus the same business, her business. I have another client who the client is still paying them, but I'm it's more like I'm seen as a subcontractor that brought in. So there are lots of different ways you can do it. But basically, in these cases, no matter what we both. Like join the kickoff or strategy call to make sure everything's on the same page. And then typically I will go do the research and writing. I need to get the copy part done, work through revisions with the client. And then I hand it off to the designer with all the instructions they need. And we stay in communication as they go about their process to making the thing look beautiful. So that's kind of like a high level of a couple of different ways that can work.
Speaker 2Yeah. And I can tell you how we do it in my branding agency. But basically, it's very similar. Like when clients come to us, they're usually looking either for a brand strategy or logo. Usually they come for a visual as they're like, oh, I need a logo or a website and explain to them that they need a brand strategy before that. But long story short, they usually don't have freelancers that they work with and they think they can get everything from a branding agency, which is true. But I don't have a full time employee. I don't have enough work and I would not like to have because I'm not in the writing business. So we like every time and we get someone who is looking for a website. Or even if we are working on their labels or flyers or something like that, we always outsource that to copywriters. And I have a couple that I always go to one. So basically, they're all contractors. Exactly how you mentioned that you work for a designer who then has a client. So sometimes I would bring them on during our brand strategy calls or sometimes I wouldn't. It depends on the client budget, how like the turnaround for the project and so on. So the timeline and things like that. But we definitely outsource to two contractors. Another question that I have for you is so for most designers, we tell our clients that they're responsible for getting us all the copy, especially when someone is a freelance graphic designer. They don't have a team yet. And then we would use their words in our design. But I have definitely had experiences where the copy we get from the clients isn't good. And that impacts the whole project. So how could. Working with a copywriter help in that situation?
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Because it's so, so important to have the copy ready or at least very close to ready before design starts. The vast variety of designers I talk to believe that because that's what you're designing around largely anyway. So working with a copywriter can really help with that because it is the copywriter's job to get that copy done. Like clients, they have a lot of things going on. They have a whole nother career job task they're doing. But when you're working with a copywriter has like. Processes and timelines and stuff, they will set a deadline that takes revisions into account that aligns with your deadline as a designer, ideally, and get it in. So ideally, that won't even be a concern. But then perhaps even more importantly is when you get you'll get copy from someone who actually kind of understands the design process better than the average business owner who might not, especially like if it's website copy, for example, the formatting will be website friendly. There'll be short paragraphs. Headings, lists, stuff like that. Some website copywriter is actually a wireframe to help provide certain levels of visual guidance and just like structure for myself. I do kind of a wireframe thing just in Google Docs. Some copywriters use a more like advanced program, like Balsamiq or something. But in general, like I'm focusing on breaking things up based on sections that I feel the messaging should appear on the website. I use formatting that makes it clear where headers and buttons, columns and even text. images should go, which is always, you know, up to the designer's expertise to make changes as needed of course but you're not just getting like a bunch of words in a document and be like what do I do with this because ultimately it's about kind of having that awareness so what will the copy probably look like on the page or the piece of material in the end of it which will hopefully make the designer's life a little bit easier
Speaker 2yeah definitely because sometimes we as designers would get a copy from clients and I'm like well this does kind of make sense but it would be really hard for me to design that in a way that makes sense because you just gave me like nine call to action buttons and it just doesn't make sense or you didn't give me any then I have to like implement and I have to think about it and I have to restructure your copy and kind of like start from you know
Speaker 1wireframing yeah exactly and yeah and you haven't spent hours and hours like on the messaging so yeah it's just it's not really your job to rewrite the copy at all as a designer so yeah yeah
Speaker 2so when clients are let's say they're trying to grow their business do they look for copywriters or designers first or did you maybe find that clients go to designers first but then they don't have a copywriter oh yes I've definitely
Speaker 1experienced both I think there is a large number of people who kind of think about design first because obviously it's what you see and then that's when designers will kind of experience that that pushback or that friction or delay in project when the words aren't ready or they aren't they aren't good enough but then I've also had people who know they need copy but they're not sure they need designs I think it really for like in the best case scenario the client is aware of where they're weak what they're lacking if they need to choose between one or the other they kind of have that awareness where to start but there are definitely people who don't and I think a lot of the times they might think of design first before they think about the copy yeah that's
Speaker 2that's what I see um so from my perspective as a designer they would sometimes go to a marketing specialist like hey I need to make more sales of this product and then when we look into the visuals but I mean those visuals are not attracting anyone so yeah you can put more money into your ads but they're not going to work exactly
Speaker 1yeah there's definitely a lot of education needed throughout the process yeah
Speaker 2so but when it comes to collaborating or partnering in terms of like freelance designers and copywriters do you think that freelance designers can maybe sign more or better clients higher paying clients by partnering with a copywriter I think it
Speaker 1can definitely play a role because the way I see it clients who for one really understand the value of messaging and design and how they work together they're just typically more informed and typically more established so while it's totally understandable they're just typically more informed and typically understandable for like when small businesses don't have the budget to choose to invest in both at the same time at once but those people who do and they see the strategy behind it those are the people who more established like I said they have bigger budgets and they see the value in having them both work together they're most likely like past their DIY phase you know and more ready to rely on your expertise so that alone kind of speaks to the value and the quote-unquote better level of those clients and it's also oh sorry go ahead
Speaker 2no I'm just saying it's also I feel like a website is not all about design and I think that there are three things kind of like you can three maybe like categories that you can split a website into one is the the content for the website so like copy and probably images and then you have the design where maybe images would actually fall under and then you have development you know it's not just like oh I need this beautiful website okay cool but then if it doesn't work like you need the coding you need maybe it doesn't have to be like custom coding there are so many platforms now and different options yeah but still that website needs to work and I feel like those are like step one the right copy and messaging step two the right design and then step three the right development
Speaker 1totally yeah so if someone's able to do all three like they're obviously going to have the best possible website and what was I just going to say it's also like you know if you're speaking to these clients it's just such a I mean it can be a value add of being able to talk about how you can collaborate with a designer a copywriter or sorry a copywriter can collaborate with a designer or vice versa so there's kind of like there could be that selling point of hey you don't need to look for both people I've got you or I've got recommendations just kind of like helping the client experience yeah and the other
Speaker 2thing is that design is not just a website it's not just a website it's not just a website it's not just a website it's not just a website it's not just a website it's not just a website it's not just a maybe get referrals from copywriters because once you're done with your project you can send your clients off to someone else and first like you you will look better in your client's eyes but also designers collaborating or partnering with you can you know make more money off of it exactly yeah
Speaker 1I love it when someone asks me for a designer recommendation I'm like yes oh my god go to this person exactly feels good do
Speaker 2you have your niche when it comes to writing do you work with service providers or people who have
Speaker 1products mostly service providers but I have I do occasionally do product-based businesses smaller ones but my niche I would say is service-based businesses because I can really focus on like what a website needs for a service provider just a bit different than an e-commerce website so I do both but my niche I would say is mostly service-based yeah
Speaker 2definitely I can totally see how they are different they can be similar but yeah yeah yeah they're both fun yeah exactly but so from from like a money and contract standpoint like what is the best way to structure a partnership between a designer and the writer like would one of them hire the other or it's like per project or like what what would you say it's the best
Speaker 1way yeah so I think the best way totally depends on what you envision for your business I know that's kind of a vague answer but I would encourage you to think about do you specifically want a copywriter who will work inside your business under your brand it's kind of like your team or do you want to work inside a copywriter's business so they're getting the clients and giving you the work or do you want more of a partnership where they're both working as your own brands a bit more referral based because all those experiences I feel like are very different but if you are looking for a more structured like subcontract partnership I think typically hiring on a per project basis is almost always the way to go there may be a way of doing like retainer stuff but I think it's a good way to do that if you need like a similar amount of copy done every single month and you want to lock that time into a writer's calendar for example I've done that for like blogs and emails but I've never done that for website copies I can't really see a way where that would work super well so probably I would recommend project-based and yeah but for project-based so that is what you're doing are you going to bring the project to them and tell them the timeline how much notice do they need to make sure they're available super super important to set parameters around timelines and so you know when you need to check in with the cooperators see if they have availability if that's something that's of the concern how much time they need to get the copy done so like there's so many things to consider but you know that's one main thing but basically no matter what you're doing and if you're working in a more subcontracting scenario a really solid contract this is a great idea just so you're both like crystal clear on who is responsible for what what's allowed what's not money money wise I guess Memphis copywriter is subcontracting for example in my experience a lot of time the copier has their own rates they may have different rates for subcontracting projects depends but they'll have rates for specific deliverables and then you would probably have a rate the client pays I think having set rates in general for most your most like common deliverables is super helpful so everyone stays on the same page but there should also be open communication if there's like a project that needs something custom and just having a process for checking in on rates as needed as you would for your own business is super important yeah yeah
Speaker 2yeah so when let's say I'm a designer and I'm looking to partner with copywriters I have a client would you charge me per hour or per project and how would that go because if I'm looking into like different websites some websites have like super long like sales pages or like how does that work is it like per per page or per hour or per how long that page is
Speaker 1right yeah so typically what I do and a lot of copywriters I've seen do is they have they might have a package that's like five web pages and they can vary in length but typically for myself it's like I have okay five standard web pages if a long sales page is needed for example if it needs to sell like a high ticket offer that people are buying straight from the website not hopping on a call then that would be a different page rate and then there's also the option for additional pages to be added to the package but typically especially for the one designer that I work with we have like a set like five page website copy package and then the of the option to add on extra pages and stuff like that that makes sense
Speaker 2yeah yeah it definitely does make sense perfect so what would you say like how can a designer find the right copywriter to partner with yeah I think social media is super great I think it's a great way to partner with a copywriter because it's a great way to partner with a copywriter yeah yeah I think
Speaker 1social media is super great because you can kind of get to know the person casually first you know on a personal level like a bit more fun instagram like so many copywriters are active they're connected with a lot of designers there are also you know a lot of them active on twitter and linkedin so kind of thinking about where you already hang out where you're ideal clients hanging out because you don't want to you know create extra work for yourself so strategically picking a couple social media platforms and maybe you're looking for like people in a similar area to you or similar niches so just kind of like being really authentic in the way you're building relationships on social media i think is super effective you can also google of course it can be a bit harder to find like the perfect person depending on what you're looking for but it might be good for finding copywriters that are local to you or in specific niches and there's always like paid freelance communities or free freelance communities i suppose um but my most favorite one i guess is social media and just kind of like organically in a way to start
Speaker 2yeah because i feel like if someone is going to google they might get larger agencies that specialize in copywriting and then it's not really like a partnership then you know they already have like established agencies they're charging a lot they have their clients and so on so maybe you know that's that's at least how i see it versus like if someone is going to contact you directly on instagram or linkedin and can build that personal relationship you uh you mentioned exactly
Speaker 1yeah i agree yeah and uh
Speaker 2what qualities should designers look for when choosing a copywriter yeah i
Speaker 1think it always comes back to being collaborative and great at communication because when you start to work with someone new there's always going to be new experiences there might be bumps along the road so i know that's something that can be a little bit difficult to you know exactly judge right beginning but that's why i think getting to know someone a little bit beforehand you know it can be great and maybe you do a test project but yeah so just a willingness to be open with their communication excellent deadline skills and time management obviously and when you're talking to them solid processes ask them about their processes you want them to align with yours and or have an open-mindedness to finding a solution so they can tweak them as needed so everything works on both ends because they're going to be able to do it themselves that's super important in terms of how the projects are actually going to progress so that's also a collaborative thing i suppose and then finally great work so like you know just go put their testimonials writing samples social media like if you like the writing you're like oh i like that there's that's a good sign and it also kind of speaks to their personality and style so yeah i was i was just
Speaker 2about to ask like how how would they know let's say i talked to three different copywriters and i have a client who is looking for i don't know copy for their copywriter and i have a client who is looking for i don't know copy for their copywriter and i have a medical device website or something like that like how would they know to choose between the three that i'm maybe in contact with yeah
Speaker 1so i would definitely suggest asking for to see their portfolio or a couple examples ask them if they've worked with a business in that niche that's like that if they haven't they might provide an example that's similar and be able to explain to you why it's relevant you know how that experience would be relevant to it and most importantly have they worked in that business and how they've worked in that business and how they've worked in that type of copy if you're looking for someone to do a website for example you're going to hopefully find someone who has done a lot of websites or done some websites specializes in that because you know every type of copy has different needs so yeah don't be afraid to kind of ask for some examples or a portfolio to get a to check out the vibe of their writing and what they've done in the
Speaker 2past yeah definitely i love that advice because you know we at least here in my branding agency are always looking for copywriters so samples are really really important it's kind of like a portfolio how designers have portfolio that's how you guys have portfolio too exactly yeah totally yeah so do you have any last thoughts on the topic of writers and designers collaborating
Speaker 1together yeah i think i have a couple maybe final thoughts ultimately i think it's important to you know just recognize that there's no like one way perhaps the writers and designers should collaborate together it's about finding what works best for you and i think it's important to you know just recognize that there's no way perhaps the writers and designers should collaborate together it's about finding what would make your life easier what your work better and what would be the most valuable to your clients and then finding a copywriter who fits into the picture if you're bringing someone on to your team because they also want to make their life easier their work better and you know clients final products the strongest as possible so yeah and also i think i kind of alluded to it earlier but if you are bringing a copywriter onto your team or vice versa like i said there will probably be a learning curve as everyone kind of figures out you know the best possible way to do that so yeah i think it's important to you know bring a copywriter onto your team because i think it's important to you know bring a copywriter for doing things and so when bumps come up if they do always just communicate work together to find a solution because you both want the same thing which is a great product happy client the paycheck in the end i think that's the most important so i guess that would be what i would
Speaker 2say yeah and i actually now it just came to my mind like i want to add to that that all designers that every designer like who's working on website projects should have a copywriter kind of like and know who they're going to go to before they even get a project because once you get a project it's too late to look for a copywriter you already have to start either designing or working in copywriter or something you don't have enough time to look for the right copywriter for the project
Speaker 1that's a great point yeah give yourself more time than you would think you need especially more time than the client might think they need because like designers copywriters are often booked out for several weeks in advance a lot of the times depending on who it is so that is a great
Speaker 2point okay yeah okay perfect well thank you so much for joining me today where can our listeners connect with you online like your website social media and anywhere else you might be yeah that's my
Speaker 1website you can check out if you'd like is nataliegates.ca but i also love to hang out on instagram my handle is wordsbynatalie so yeah you can check me out there perfect well thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon awesome
Speaker 2thank you have a great one thank you for joining us today on the profitable graphic designer in addition to this podcast we have created some amazing online courses to help you set up your business get more clients and scale to the income level you desire if you need help developing your freelance portfolio so it stands out if you want to learn how to create proposals new clients will say yes to if you're still trying to figure out how much to charge for your services and if becoming the go-to designer for your dream business you can find us on our website at go2designer.com and we'll see you next is your goal this year then i invite you to enroll in my signature 12-week program the profitable designer or one of our other specialized online courses to learn more about the programs and get started visit aventiveacademy.com see you next time
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