Speaker 1Very often, we can hear all these influencers and experts and successful designers talk about high-paying clients, 10K months, working only 20 hours a week, and so on. But not many actually tell you that it took a long time before they were able to get those results. It's totally doable. I've done it too. But you need to know that it takes time, a lot of effort, and a little bit of luck. Welcome to the Profitable Graphic Designer Podcast. My name is Katie Sandel, and this episode was brought to you by Aventive Academy, an online business education platform that helps brand, graphic, and web designers get more clients, increase their price, and make more money. We have online programs, courses, and templates that you can use, and you can find out more about starting and growing your freelance design business at aventiveacademy.com. It's been eight years since I started my business. It's been eight years since I came up with a name for my business, which has been a lot of work, and it has changed since then, but eight years of hard work where it's now finally paying off. And as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, you will hear a lot of successful designers talking about hitting these huge goals and all of that, but nobody tells you that they actually worked nonstop. They worked way more than 40 hours a week on their business. It wasn't just like a side hustle. Maybe it has started as a side hustle. Maybe they worked on their business after their night to five or something like that, just like I did, but it definitely took a lot of effort and time, or they knew the right people. And what I mean, they knew the right people is I've actually recently heard that one of the famous singers, something like, oh, I started from zero. My dad introduced me to Snoop Dogg. And I'm like, that's not zero. Your dad already knew. And then he took you to the top. You know, it's not like we, like, how would I become a good singer? Or even if I had a good voice, I don't have a dad who's going to introduce me to Snoop Dogg. So that's what I mean, like, or know the right people. But most of us don't know the right people, right? So we have to put time and effort into building our businesses. And in today's episode, I really want to walk you through the timeline of how you can I will start from where I am at the moment, because not many of you know that I run a successful and profitable branding and design agency here in Austin, Texas. And I have a team of people. We specialize in helping health and wellness product-based businesses. We are focused on skincare lines, self-care products, multivitamins, bath bombs, different massagers and things like that. But basically, product-based businesses. And they have to be in the health and wellness industry. Now, when I say something like that, you might be like, oh, but that's not what I want to do. And that's totally fine. The point is that you need to create a business that you would love to have. I love, love, love, love working on packaging designs for skincare lines, for essential oils, for bath bombs. Like, I'm so excited every single time when I get a client. Because I truly work with dream clients, and they pay me well for my services. So yeah, let's start from, I think, yeah, it was 2014 when I had a job. So at that time, I used to live in Las Vegas originally. I'm from Serbia, and you can probably hear my accent. But basically, I moved to Las Vegas, and I got an opportunity to work for a science and printing company. I mean, before that, I was working at a kiosk, like selling balanced bracelets, selling. selling iPhone cases and things like that. But then soon after that, just a few months after that, as I was saying to whoever I would meet, I would just tell them, I'm a graphic designer, and I'm looking for a job. I'm a graphic designer. I'm looking for a job. And that's how I met one guy. He was like the owner of one of those booths selling something in casinos or whatever. And he was printing flyers and business cards with this one printing company. And then when I told him that I'm a graphic designer looking for a job, he was like, well, let me introduce you to the owner of this printing company. And I was like, yeah, sure. Thank you. So he introduced me to Nadia, who was the owner of that science and printing company. And this was my first graphic design job. So I, like before that, I finished the Academy of Arts. And even though I was technically a graphic designer, I never had a job as a graphic designer. You know, I had like some passion projects and some student work. And all of that. But I didn't really work for a company. I didn't have clients or anything like that. So I was so excited to start my design career. In this science and printing company in Las Vegas, we didn't have, I don't know how I would say that, but we like all the work that we had, like nothing was creative. What I mean by that is we were working on posters, on car wraps, on business cards. And it was all just like fast, fast. I mean, you can even just imagine how things work in Las Vegas. Everything is like from today till tomorrow. All the deadlines, like everything is so rushed. And business cards are, for example, oh, just put something on it. Like, it doesn't matter. Download the template. We even had like a template that we used for a lot of different companies. So a lot of different companies have the same business cards. They just change names and phone numbers. And they know that. So it wasn't like our hack and secret to deliver something faster. But it's true. It's just what they do in Vegas. Like, I don't know. Like, there was no creativity. Nothing was creative. And I was kind of getting like tired of it, you know, but all and also, yeah, the other thing was that I am just not into like having eight to five, nine to five. Actually, my printing job was eight to five. That's why I said eight to five. You know, I'm just not into that lifestyle. And I didn't have the freedom to experiment and like be creative. So I started building. I started building my own website on the side, not really knowing what's going to happen next. But later that year, I landed my first freelance client and I was able to quit my job after nine months. And, you know, I got a couple of more clients. Now, how I got those clients was in that signs and printing company. When I said to the founder, to the owner, that I would love to focus on kind of like more creative designs. And, you know, when she told me that there is no room for it. Within her company, I said, OK, I'm going to start doing something like that to the side. Do you mind if I say to your clients, I mean, to our clients in that printing company, that I'm doing something like that on the side? And she said, no, not at all. If you want to have freelance clients and take them from here, that's totally fine. And at first I I was like terrified of like what's going to happen next. What if she sees that I'm building my business on the side? What if she thinks I'm going to leave her, which is fine. And I'm sure she thought that. So, yeah, every time and there will be new clients, I would tell them like, oh, but if you need like more creative work, this is what I do. And then I will show them like some kind of work that I that I created at home, maybe like inspiration or something that I would like to get in the future. Like I remember creating this one website. I mean, now when I'm looking at that, it wasn't creative. But at that time, you know, I didn't have much experience. I thought it looks good. And I would I would show that to every single person that would walk into that signs and printing company and tell them. But I also do website designs. I also do poster designs and this type of work and whatnot. And so that's how I got my first few freelance clients. And how I was able to quit my job is because I at first I thought, well, maybe I'll quit. I'll have enough freelance clients. I will be able to figure that out. So I made kind of it wasn't a mistake because I was moving from Las Vegas to Denver. But I quit before I had enough clients. And I will say why I said that that's a mistake, because unless you have to, unless you're moving to a new city or town or whatever, then wait until you have enough freelancing clients to actually quit your job. I have a student here at Eventive Academy who quit her job three months ago. Because she wants to be a freelancer, but she didn't have enough clients as a freelancer. And now she's like in this like panic mode. Oh, I need to make money. I need to make money. She can't just like step back and think objectively about her business and what action steps she needs to make in order to actually grow that business where it's sustainable and it works not just today, but in a few months or years. So it's really hard. So, yeah, what I wanted to say is like, don't just quit your job before. you have at least some freelancing clients. Now to go back to my story, I think that we're now getting into 2016 where I really, really started my freelance career. So this year I focused on growing my graphic design business. I was posting on social media. I went for a lot of networking events. I tried paid ads. I was posting on Craigslist, like everything. I really focused on growing, growing, growing. I was going for three to five networking events. And that was amazing. I met a lot of people. I learned a lot about business. I got a lot of referrals, like, you know, just those connections. Like that's what I think really helped me grow my business. The other thing was at that time, Instagram was, I mean, Instagram was already popular. You know, what was that? Six years ago, Instagram was already popular, Facebook and all that. But there was this website called Craigslist that I believe still exists. And I was posting on Craigslist, like, I think it was like 20 times a day or so. So 20 posts on Craigslist that I designed logos, I designed business cards, I designed websites, I designed flyers and posters and whatever it was. And so that's how I actually really, that's what actually took off. Like Craigslist was how I built my business. I literally built my business. Off of Craigslist, I was getting a lot of clients, a lot of cheap and bad clients, but also there was one branding agency who hired me kind of like as a white label designer, which means that I work for them as a contractor. And I can't really use those designs in my portfolio or anything like that. Everything goes under their agency's name. So they have a client, they talk to the client and they're outsourcing. And this is something similar that like how my branding agency operates now, where I have graphic designers, web developers, brand designers, content developers, and whatnot. And I outsource to them, but everything is under my branding agency, which is Aventium Studio. So I was hired by this one branding agency, and then I would do website designs for them. I would do some logos and some brand identities, like figure out colors and fonts and whatnot for their clients. So this was kind of like, I'm freelancing, but I have this one big client. The rest was just, you know, they would like come and go. They would price shop, like price shopping clients were what was coming the most because Craigslist is known as kind of like cheap offering services or something similar, where people go if they're looking for something cheap or quick, or they know they will not get like a lot of quality. So I was hired by this one branding agency, and then I was hired by this one branding agency, and then I was hired by this one branding agency, but they still go there because they don't have much money. So, you know, I didn't charge enough and I was like crazy busy with things that weren't bringing results. Like I would constantly work on logos, business cards, flyers, but nothing. I mean, it was all trial and error. And I was charging sometimes $65 for a logo, sometimes 200. Like I would just try, you know, I would double my rates. Everything. And I would double my rates. And I would super, super busy. But I was really, really like working a lot. And I was even like less happy than when I worked for someone else. I, you know, didn't have any time for myself. And some months I made $300. Some months I made 3000. And it wasn't consistent at all. It was just frustrating all around. So that was 2016 when I really focused on growing my freelance career, or maybe even like starting. Like I think that in the past, even though I had a website and all that, it wasn't like I really started it. But let's say, let's say growing. In 2017, I doubled my pricing and my client was on Shark Tank. So this is the year when I moved to Austin in January and did some market research that led to doubling and even tripling my prices and being active on LinkedIn. And this is when I had my first $9,500. So basically kind of almost 10K, which was like crazy and unbelievable to me. And I was not busy at all. Suddenly I had more money and more time. I started outsourcing and hired a writer and a web developer. I also landed a big client that ended up being on Shark Tank and is now a multi million dollar company. It's actually valued at a billion. So yeah, and they found them. Yeah, they found me on LinkedIn. I was just, I was just about to say on Craigslist, but no, they found me on LinkedIn. So yeah, this is when I really stopped doing and start thinking. And what I mean by that is I stepped back and really put effort into figuring out why I do what I do, how I help my clients, who my clients really are. Because if you think that your clients are everyone and anyone who needs graphic brand or web design services, well, that's true. It's going to be really hard for you to find them because you will not know where to start. You will not know if they're on Instagram, LinkedIn, maybe even Craigslist, or you will have to go for a lot of networking events. You will have to meet a lot of people. It's just a lot of effort. So what helped me in 2017, besides, you know, charging more is that I really stepped back and started to think like, okay, I need to stop posting because it makes no sense. I am not growing my business. It's not working. I have to figure out where my clients are and who those clients can be. So after I stepped back, I figured out that as I offer branding services, such as, you know, visual identity, like logo designs, colors, typography, and that's what I enjoy. Like that's what I'm good at. And that's what I love. So where would my clients be? Okay. So my clients are business owners, entrepreneurs, people with they usually have professional profiles and they're usually on LinkedIn. So that's where I event. So events on LinkedIn started posting, started connecting with people and started getting clients. And what I mean by started getting clients, started getting high paying clients or good clients, you know, not those clients who are just price shopping and looking for the cheapest possible option. Then the next year in 2018, my work was paying off. And even though I was busier than I wanted, I got some amazing recognitions this year, as I was really focused on building that credibility. Like you heard that people need to know, like, and trust you. So people already knew me and they like me now have to figure out how they're going to trust me. So I was named as entrepreneur of the year by a business owner networking group here in Austin, Texas. I was a speaker at the freelance conference at the Microsoft headquarters here in Austin as well. And I did a lot of business presentations. I would constantly look for speaking opportunities and things like that. And now, even if you think like, oh, well, I am nervous to show up in front of people, the more you do it, the more comfortable you feel and the less nervous you are. And then this year I also hired a graphic and web designer and outsourced a lot of writing, editing, and proofreading. In 2019, was when I became an author and course creator. I published my first book, Brand Fix, and this goes back to building that credibility. And Brand Fix was number one new release on Amazon and became an online course creator. And so this year I attended a mastermind and I hired a marketing company to help me niche down and be more intentional about who I wanted to work with. And I had some huge clients, the total of one project, was close to $250,000. And I really continued to outsource everything I could. And in November, I registered the Eventive Academy domain, which is my online educational platform for freelance brand graphic and web designers, helping them grow their businesses, similar how I grew my business. Of course, not posting on Craigslist and charging $65 for a logo, but knowing what I know and kind of like transferring that to designers who are, you know, you know, you know, you know, really into starting and growing their own freelance branding, graphic or web design business. So yeah, this was kind of like a summary of 2018. But what really happened in 2019, besides publishing the book, that helped a lot. And what I mean by a lot is not that I made a ton of sales. I didn't. I didn't really focus on marketing and promoting that book or anything like that. The book was more for when a client comes to me, when a client sees my website or we talk about branding, you know, kind of like branding services, they see that I am an author. So they see me as an expert. They see me as a branding expert who can help them grow their business as well. And it kind of builds that trust immediately. So that was the whole point of me writing a book, not to make a ton of money. And that helped a lot. I, so even like this year, so four years later, no. So in 2019 was when I published the book, Now is 2022. So three years later. I got a client and I asked her, how did you hear about me? And she's like, I actually read your book and then decided to hire you because I saw how much knowledge you have. You know, so again, it wasn't about making sales. It was all about building that trust and credibility. And when I said that this year I attended a mastermind, I went for a business mastermind and I now organize something similar to that for brand graphic and web designers. But I'll talk more about it at the end. So I went for a mastermind and I was in a group of five or six people. And when I asked them, how can I grow my business? Like, what do you guys think? We made like a business plan for me and actions on how I can get there, how I need to charge more, how I need to niche down and all that. And then after that mastermind, I hired a marketing company to help me really focus on who I want to work with. And be more intentional. And that's how we figured out that I would love to work with skincare lines and health and wellness businesses and really focus on packaging design labels and helping people make more product sales. And that's when I decided to niche down and my business took off because whoever is looking for a graphic designer, let's say someone is starting a business and they have supplements. So they have, let's say, multivitamins. And they have supplements. And they open a bunch of tabs. So they open 10 different tabs in their browser and they're looking for a graphic designer, right? They have 10 different designers in their tabs and they're going one by one. Okay. This one sounds fine. She's a graphic designer. She helps businesses with logos and colors, you know, like visual identities and labels, packaging website and whatnot. It sounds fine. Yeah. I love her work. It all sounds good. Next one. Oh, I'm a graphic designer. I do posters and flyers and business cards. And then the client is like, okay, well, the first person resonates more. I'll close this tab. And then the third person is we are a branding agency, branding and design agency. We help health and wellness businesses launch and boost product sales. And, you know, then it's like getting like closer and closer to their needs. And then if they go to portfolio and they see that we've done something similar to what they're trying to achieve, they're going to just close off. All the tabs and contact us immediately. And that's, that's really what happened. That's how we were even to work on huge projects and have these huge clients and like things that I could have never even like taught about. Like I never taught in the past, especially because I was charging $65 for a logo. I never thought that I would be a part of a team that works on a project that's close to $250. It's so crazy for me to even think about it. But this is when I started getting a lot of clients that are my ideal dream clients, people who I want to work with and people who have the money to pay me for my expertise. In 2020, I started, after I saw that so many brand web and graphic designers struggle with growing their businesses, I started Aventive Academy. Aventive Academy is an online educational platform for designers who are trying to either start their freelance businesses or grow their freelance businesses. And so, yeah, in 2020, I started building a community and sharing everything graphic designers need to do to ditch the nine to five and become successful business owners using the proven strategies and ways that worked for my business. And, you know, that I know will work for them as well. This is when I started creating. Online courses, writing blog posts, creating different webinars, workshops, masterclasses. And when I really so that I can help designers get to the next level. This was also the year when the pandemic hit and we were under lockdowns and all that. But I still had a fair amount of clients. I did lose some like I'm not going to be like, oh, I had clients the whole year. I mean, I did, but in a way where I did lose some, but not. Because of me, it's just what the market was all about. For example, there was this one client who he had like his own chocolate, something like that, and he was selling it all in person. He was going for like to marketplaces, to different shows and whatnot. And then he thought he's going to invest that money into rebranding so that he can start selling online. But when pandemic hit, we were under lockdowns. He wasn't able to make more sales. He wasn't able to make more money. So he wasn't able to invest in me. And that's how he didn't hire me. So that's totally normal and totally understandable, right? However, this year was good and I had a baby in 2020. So I was kind of like taking a lot of time off and all of that. However, it was it was fine. Then 2021 is when I started getting bigger and bigger clients. So this year I mostly work with my ideal clients like skincare. I send proposals for $15,000. This was my minimum $25,000 and $30,000. We also welcomed some new students, graphic designers who enrolled in our online freelance courses. Our Instagram hits 10K. So we got the famous swipe up button that now everybody has. We hired a graphic designer, web designer, web developer and the marketing strategist. And overall, this year was great. It was probably. My favorite year besides this one. I don't know. I feel like every year is better and better. So yeah, in in this year was where I was really getting amazing, amazing clients that I loved, loved, loved, loved. And it all started with this one skincare line that was launching. They had like four products. We had to develop their like everything from brand strategy, figure out who their competitors are, how they can stand out. Why they're. They're different than all other skincare lines. They were like all natural, but still like, why are they different than all other natural skincare lines? So we worked on their brand strategy. Then we translated that into visuals such as logo colors, typography, styled imagery. And then we worked on their labels and packaging and then eventually on their website. And it was, it was amazing. And then when it comes to events, so that's when it comes to my branding and design agency. And then when it comes to the. The educational platform, the event of Academy, we were getting a lot of new students that were going through our online courses. A lot of designers launched their businesses. Some raised their pricing. Some decided to specialize. Some are getting dream high paying clients. Some are hitting 10 K months, double their rates and so on. It was amazing, amazing feedback. And then we added the community aspect of it where all our students now can connect can connect within. A private platform where they can ask each other any questions they have access to me and my team and whatnot. And so, yeah, 2021 was amazing. Now I know that it's just August of just August. It's not really just August. Oh my God. This year just flew by in 2022. Everything got bigger. We welcomed more students to event of Academy's programs and we launched our popular podcast. We also built six. Or eight more programs that help designers with specific business areas, such as pricing your design services, how to find your niche, how to raise your rates and things like that. And our students had amazing success, like quitting their nine to five and making $10,000 a month. And when it comes to my branding and design agency, I rebranded my branding agency to niche down even more. And because of that, I was able to get an 18 K client email. I was able to get an 18 K client email. And what I mean by immediately is literally we launched the new website and I think it was like the next day when he contacted us like, Hey, I'm looking for branding and website design or whatever it was for this health and wellness business. I don't want to go into the details. And we landed that client literally immediately. Soon after that, you know, you know, when they say like the ball, the ball, it just started snowballing or snow rolling or something like that. I don't know how to say that in English, but you know what I mean? Like everything just got bigger and nicer. And I am, and even when I say $18,000 to some, that's going to sound like a lot of money, but then to some it's going to be like, but if you do website design, that's not actually a lot because a website can cost on its own $25,000. Yes. But now I have to tell you all about getting the dream clients because I don't like working with clients who pay me. Two or $5,000 or something like that, because they're too much into the designs and they're involved in every step of the way. They think they're experts. They provide a lot of advice. They ask their moms, they ask their spouses, their kids and whatnot. And it's just a lot. So I don't work. I don't like working with small, small clients, but also I don't like working with large clients. And I'll tell you why. So the project that I have. had a few years ago, and I mentioned it in this podcast episode, that was $250,000. It was great and it was, you know, a lot of money and all of that, but also it took forever. It took, I don't know, I think like a year or two from start to finish. And also there were a lot of people involved within the project. So every time that I would send a design or whatever I send them, I wait for weeks to be approved or to get some revisions back. And there were a lot of people who had their own opinion. And I mean, it's fine. Like we all have different opinions, but it's just, it's not what I would like to do in the future again, in a sense where, you know, the founder would send me some feedback, then his wife would send me feedback, then managers would send me feedback. And even when they had meetings without me, which they did, I mean, within their company, and they would make, they would make a list of like changes. It just took forever to get that from them. And then some things wouldn't make sense. And it was just a lot. And, you know, it's just not what I enjoy. What I love is I love working one-to-one with business owners who value my work and who are going to pay me in between 10 and $30,000. And they're usually starting a business or they're looking to rebrand so that they can start making more sales of their products. Either on Amazon or in person or, you know, in grocery stores or whatever it is, depending on the project. So that's kind of like my dream client. And that's what I focus on. And that's why I even rebranded my branding agency, which sounds funny, to kind of attract my ideal clients. And I did niche down even more where I talk even more about skincare lines because that's what I love. And I am now getting all the clients that are around like 15,000, 18,000, 20,000, 25, but they're all in this like same range where it's a few people starting or growing their business. And they have in between like two, maybe four to 10 products and they're trying to make more sales off of and, you know, things like that. So I am really focused into landing my dream ideal clients this year and it's going really good so far. I love it. I don't know exactly what's going to happen in 2023, but I think I'm going to focus even more on growing Eventive Academy because I see that my students, graphic brand and web designers are getting amazing results, amazing clients, making more money, working less. And of course it doesn't happen overnight. Like I'm not, I'm not one of those people that is going to tell you like, oh, you can work two days a week and make $100,000 in a month and whatever. Like, no, you can't. I mean, it's possible and I'm sure it happened to someone, but most of the time it does take a lot of time, effort, and sometimes even money to invest in your business. However, it does pay off and I think it's worth it. So yeah, in 2023 and for the rest of this year, I am focusing on growing Eventive Academy and we have masterminds. So masterminds are kind of like a new addition to, to our online courses where you get access to the Profitable Designer Program, which is our 12-week online course. And then on top of that, you get weekly coaching and masterminding, or is that even a word? But like coaching and mastermind calls with me and other creatives where we all help each other grow businesses. So for example, during our last mastermind, there was a girl who was constantly like, I'm not getting enough clients. I need more money. I need to grow my business. And once we figured out how much she's charging, we were like, oh my God, you're so cheap. Let's restructure your offers, your pricing and everything like so that she can get to her financial goals. Then we had another girl who was struggling with her portfolio. And then when she shared her screen, we were like, oh my God, your work is amazing. You just don't know how to present it well. So we helped her focus more on case studies and add some description and things like that that are going to attract her ideal client. And then there was one more girl who wasn't sure exactly how to structure her business, what her goals should be. And her focus was on quitting her nine to five. And it's really amazing to be a part of a group who are with like-minded people who can help you grow. So yeah, that's kind of like a new addition. Plus to get access to all the lessons in the Profitable Designer Program, and then if you have any questions or anything like that, you can ask me or other people that are on the call. So yeah, that's going to be our focus for the rest of 2022 and in 2023. But then when it comes to my branding agency, I am just going to continue building this momentum where I'm getting the clients that I love to work with and who pay me well for my design services and where I have full credit for the creative freedom. I was just about to say full creative something. I forgot the word freedom. But like where I have that freedom to do with the designs, whatever I want to do. And from here, I would not like to grow anymore in a sense of expanding my team. Right now I have a graphic designer, brand designer, social media strategist. I have a copywriter, editor, web developer, web designer, and me. So I think, I'm good. I would not like to be bigger. I would not like to be smaller either. So, you know, that's going to be my focus. And I don't know what else to tell you. I think that that was it for this podcast episode. I hope you learned something and I hope that you saw that it's not possible, it's not impossible to grow overnight, but most of freelance graphic brand or web designers don't, or most creatives, any business owners, like we don't grow overnight. It takes time. And I just walk you through the whole quick freelance timeline of my business and how I started my business in 2015. And now it's 2022 and it's finally working, right? So it does take time. I don't want to say it's going to take you seven or eight years because it doesn't have to. You can just join my programs and we can shorten that time for you. I'm not trying to sell you anything at the moment, but I'm just saying that you can learn from others who have done it. Don't fall. Don't follow like the mistakes that I made. Don't try to do all the things at once. Try to step back and see, figure out where your clients are, who they are, what you would like to do, and then like truly focus on getting that because it is possible. And the more narrow you go, the better it is. However, I don't want you to like limit yourself because as creatives, we never want to limit ourselves. I found my niche in the skincare lines and like health and wellness business. Because that's what I love. And I keep getting inspired to do that. So yeah, just focus on what you love, figure out where your clients are, how much you need to charge them to get to your income goals, figure out how much money you want to make that month, and then where clients with the money hang out. And if you have any questions, feel free to email me hi at eventiveacademy.com or join the Profitable Designer Program or join the Profitable Designer Program or join our mastermind. And yeah, I think that that's it. I can't wait to connect with you. See you next time. Thank you for joining us today on the Profitable Graphic Designer. In addition to this podcast, we have created some amazing online courses to help you set up your business, get more clients, and scale to the income level you desire. If you need help developing your freelance portfolio so it stands out, if you want to learn how to create proposals, new clients, will say yes to, if you're still trying to figure out how much to charge for your services, and if becoming the go-to designer for your dream clients is your goal this year, then I invite you to enroll in my signature 12-week program, The Profitable Designer, or one of our other specialized online courses. To learn more about the programs and get started, visit eventiveacademy.com. See you next time.
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