#26 Why You’re Not Getting Clients (Even When You’re Doing Everything Right) | Messaging That Actually Converts With Holly MacCue

Welcome to the Rebel Metriarch Podcast. My name is Samantha Sanford and I am your host and I want to invite you into this session with an open heart and an open mind. Because this is not just a podcast, it is a global movement, a global uprising. And this is a representation of what is truly possible and available to women today. Hello, gorgeous human beings. My name is Samantha Sanford and I am your host. And I am bringing today a very special guest who is going to be bringing a mix of business and quantum woo-woo, which I'm really excited about because those are two of my favorite topics to really dive into and explore. And I feel like anyone who is firstly a woman and then an entrepreneur and also a mother is really going to benefit so much from this conversation. And so I'm really excited to bring Holly to the Rebel Metriarch Podcast who is a sales and messaging strategist. I remember that. (laughs) I was saying to Holly every time I go to explain what it is, my guest does, I always lose the words but I remember this time. So Holly is a sales and messaging strategist and she's someone that I've been following for a while now and I adore her spaces, I adore her approach, she's got such a beautiful spirit and in the prep to pressing record on this podcast she was sharing a little bit about her daughters and the magic that they're bringing. And I was like, I need to know all of this. And so I'm really excited. So Holly, thank you so much for being here. - Thank you for having me, I'm so excited. - Yay, I'm like, I don't even know where to start but I do know where to start. (laughs) Clearly I'm very excited and I haven't even had my tea yet so this is gonna be good. So for those who don't know you, which is, will be a lot of my listeners, firstly and foremost, you're not Australian. - No. - But you live in Australia? - Yes. - And where are you from? - I'm originally from the UK and I moved to originally Sydney coming up 13 years the end of this year with my Aussie husband and now we live in South Australia in Adelaide. - That is amazing. And did you move here for work or you moved here for your husband? 'Cause he was here. - So we actually met in London and married in London. That's the story in itself. (laughs) Because I thought I was going to wind up in South of France with bilingual children having studied French for years and years and years and I just have a cute little bilingual French babies and eat loads of cheese. And then one evening I was out with some friends in what can only be described as a dodgy bowling alley in London and met an Aussie farmer. (laughs) And the rest is history. So Simon, my husband was always wanting to go back to Australia eventually and so yet. 2013 and we made the move down under. - That is amazing. I love those sorts of stories. Are your girls still bilingual because you obviously don't French? So do you still teach them French? - We do speak French here and there. But unfortunately in between Sydney and Adelaide we lived in a regional town where I really tried to find someone who was a French speaker to spend time with and in a country town that's really hard. So I feel like we missed the moment of where they just kind of act like little sponges and soak it up without having to learn it. They do learn it at school. We actually chose the school they're at. For that reason it was like one of the big plus points and they do love it and they can count and say some words and things but no, they're not bilingual. (laughs) - They're still tied. They're still tied. It's amazing. And is your husband infarming? - No. (laughs) I was just editing over the thank goodness. He, so his whole family, a kind of farmer's, his parents had a cattle farm for 40 years and have just very recently retired. His sister is still on a property in rural Queensland. So when we want to dip into that we can. But no, he's a, he works for a company that is very much in the area of agriculture. So he's still kind of getting his fix that way but no. (laughs) - Not in a land. - No, that's awesome. That's awesome. And you mentioned that you learned French growing up. So you're fluent in French. - Yes. - Was that like just something that you fell into or it's just started in school or it's something you became passionate about? How does that look? - So I studied at school and then that's what I did at uni. I did French and English at university. So I spent a year teaching English in the middle of nowhere in France at high schools. And then I did my masters, both in London and Paris. So in Paris it was a masters of business in French. And then I also spent a year in Geneva working there as well. So yeah, it looked, it's not as hot as it used to be because it was 12 years in Australia with not as many people to chat to in it. But it comes back once I'm having a conversation with someone and I actually recently got back into French conversation classes just like I could talk in French again because I absolutely love the language. But I watched lots of reels and videos and things on socials in French and that keeps me topped up. - Yeah, definitely. Such a beautiful language. It's very, very sexy. - Yeah, and so talk to. I love that because I grew up, well I grew up in Australia, but I'm Lebanese. And so when you go to Lebanon, French is everybody's second language. So it's like Lebanese, French and then also English. And so when you go there and you're in the culture and you're like, woo! Like saying it is very heavy Arabic language, but then you've got this really beautiful French language and it can be really embarrassing. So I love that. But I can't believe that your French language, like your passion for French has taken you to some of the most beautiful romantic countries in the world. And so you said you did your business masters in Paris as well? - Yeah, yeah. I thought it was a French business school. What was I like? - Yeah. - And is it any different to anywhere else? - Well, it was a crazy experience. It was like a baptism of fire because I did French and English at university for four years. So all I was doing was reading books and writing essays. And then I thought, "Do you know what? "If you were really cool to get a master's in business "because I knew I wanted to go into marketing at the time." And I figured that would be like a way to accelerate that path. So I chose this French business school that has campuses in multiple different countries. And so I did half in London and English, half in Paris and French. Out of around 80 of us, I think I was one of like four English people. It was very international group. And I was also one of the youngest. A lot of them already had a master's. This was just their second master's. (laughs) And I literally remember walking into like day one. And I mean, this was a few years ago. So it would probably be Canva now, but at the time we were like, needing to like put a presentation to PowerPoint, I had never used PowerPoint. And we were talking about like gross profit and net profit. And I, that was literally a foreign language to me. So I was like, this massive fish out of water. And it was basically three years condensed into one. So it was very full on. And then the second part was in French. So I'm literally learning European law corporate finance. Oh, these are the subjects I'd never even studied in my own language in French for the first time. So it was an incredible experience. It was really confronting at times. And it was a big headache at times. I'm really glad I did it. And it obviously meant I had the experience of living in Paris. And that was really cool as well. I can only imagine. Were you dating at the time as well? 'Cause you could date Frenchmen, 'cause you were in France? Yeah, that would have been a good idea. I had an American boyfriend from the wrong nationality, dude. Oh, so yeah, it was. I had a French boyfriend when I was living abroad teaching English. And that really helped my French. Yeah, absolutely. You know how to argue in a foreign language? You improve your French, you're pretty fast. Hey, that's such a really good point. Anyone who's learning another language learned to argue in that language and you've been set for life. I love that. That's beautiful. What did you take away from those experiences that you can bring into what you do now? I think it's really important to intuitively follow your gut and your heart. I didn't necessarily need to do this masters. In England, I could have probably got a marketing role with my existing degree. I certainly didn't need to make it hard on myself and do it in a foreign language. But that opened me up to experiences I never would have had otherwise to people I still am in contact with all these years later who are all over the world. Different perspectives and points of view. and I think that's just really, that's why I'm here. colors, you know, our life experience, it works, give it a richness and it's always easier just to kind of stick with what we know, right always. And there will be those kind of growing, stretching pains and your questioning, why, why did I make this so hard for myself? Why, can I just do the easy route? And then after it was you're like, thank God I did, thank God I had that experience and thank God I opened myself up to new experiences and wisdom and people and cultures, I mean, it was literally a melting pot of different multi-national, you know, cultures and languages and it was so funny to experience how different people from different parts the world will approach something in such different ways. I remember one of the funny examples we had one of our teachers asked, you know, how late would you need to be for a meeting to feel that you needed to apologize? And so there's all the English in the German saying like five minutes. And then the Mexicans were like, maybe you're 45, 45 minutes an hour. Oh my gosh, this hilarious because it's like, oh wow, you know, like not everyone thinks the way that I think and not everyone does things the way that I do and that's why I'm just also such a lever of travel and you know, I just think we just don't want to stay in our own little box. The world is an incredible place and there are I think one of the biggest blessings of having an online business where I'm connected to so many people globally is to also recognize that there is just such a wealth of wisdom from the different perspectives that different people bring from not only their own experiences of viewpoints but also their cultures and that's really fascinating and special. Absolutely, I love that. Have you traveled with your girls much? We took them to the UK in 2023 so my youngest was only two and my eldest was five. So thank God for bluey on tap on the plane. I think they watched that until their eyeballs fell out but it got us to England. They had a wonderful time. We spent six weeks there. It had been my first trip back for like five years because of COVID and having a newborn and all the things. So we did that and then we have traveled lots around Australia. Last year we made a real intention to do more and we went to Darwin and we went to Hamilton Island and this year we just literally last week booked our trip to Bali. So yeah, I want them to see new places. I also want them to be old enough to be able to remember them but I've got my sights set definitely on Europe and I'd love to go to Thailand and be at Nome with them and Japan's on the list. So yeah, I think the next few years we're going to get a bit more adventurous overseas. Now that we're out of Portocots and High Chairs and Pottle, Pottle, Naffees, I know. I'm saying this to you as someone who's not good at that phase but you will get out of that phase and then you can do things too. Yeah, yeah, I'm like every time someone's got all the kids I'm like wait, so it gets a little bit easier, right? You can put the shoes on, oh my god. Yeah, because it's like I love it, right? And I love them and it's like raising girls is so beautiful but there are so many times when you're just like you know even just to go down to Sydney to say our family even if it's just one night and the amount of things that you have to pack in your car to load up. Exactly, exactly, which is why we don't go down often because it's like it's too much effort and then you come here. Yeah, yeah, so I love that, I love that. And I wanted to ask you because you mentioned and I don't know if it's still the same for you now or if you remember back then but one thing that I know for women is that they are very disconnected from themselves and they're very disconnected from their intuition. And so you said something about your story about how you were so glad that you followed your intuition in doing going to Paris and studying in Paris because you didn't need to like there was actually no need but it's something that was niggling. What was that intuitive hit like like for you, what was the experience? Was it something in your body? Was it just a persistent thought? What does intuition look like for you? Yeah, I think it's a mix of both. There's like this little nudge and this little kind of pull that kind of just tugs and it typically is a thought on a loop that kind of won't leave me. It's like just keeps like knocking. Sometimes I might dream it or I might wake up thinking it. And yeah, it's just usually something that I can't quite shake off and it feels like hey, is this like nudge to look at something in a deeper way, typically, but I mean when I feel anything it's typically in my stomach when it's like that real kind of I guess got sacral push, when I feel anxiety about something it's often in my chest and that's also a nudge to look at something deeper and in many cases anxiety can be both my chest and my stomach as well. And I'm very familiar with those experiences too and those have definitely shaped certain decisions and parts that I've taken or been like the wake-up calls in certain moments. But yeah, I think intuition is just that it really is that inner knowing and I think people feel it in experience in different ways. And when you have been disconnected from your body, which I certainly was for many many years when I was younger, I've very much in my head about everything. At first, it's not something that's immediately recognizable as your intuition trying to speak to you. You know, it's trying to shout into this void and you're like, "Badana!" What's the logical thing to do? And so I think over time you start to recognize when it's calling you and certainly when you start to I think respond and answer that call, you realize that you can do that much more quickly because there's so much less doubt in your mind. If your intuition's telling you something, then there's a reason for that. And whether you want to call that your guide speaking to you or you know, in a guidance or spirit or source or universe or whatever terminology makes sense for you. I think you know, there's there's almost always something in it. I don't think any of us can really say over time where we trusted our gut and it didn't give us something that was a value and equally the times where we ignored our gut. That's usually a slight regret we might have towards that moment in time and like, "Ah, yeah, yeah." I knew that and then I still did this. Yes, yes. Sometimes we need to sort of test that boundary a little bit or test the relationship a little bit to know. Yeah, all the way. No, I was right. Exactly. Yeah, you're going to kind of get that kind of reference point for yourself. I love that. And did you have that same sort of experience because you also mentioned you knew that you wanted to get into marketing. Was that also an intuitive hit for you? No, I think that was more like just logical probably, which was also very natural for you. Yes, right. Yeah, to that. Yeah. I was definitely very driven and ambitious. You know, I studied hard. I got the grades, all the things. And I was also creative. So what was interesting when I did my masters is I was surrounded by people who couldn't wait to go in and be an investment banker and shit tons of money and have no life. Whereas I was like, "I want to do marketing." And they laughed at me for that. And I'm like, "I'm not going to earn any money." And I was saying, "I want to do it." It was definitely, there was a desire that, even if it wasn't necessarily something I recognized as intuition at the time, it was like, "This is what I want to do." And then the logic was, "I'll get there faster if I do this masters and have a bit more of a clue about business." But really, it was just that the creative side of me that was calling more than anything. I've always been a creative. I had my first poem published, "Age 10." I've always been a writer. Like, I would be writing little books about my bunny and stapling them together. That was like a whole series about "Rita the Rabbit" back in the day. And yeah, so writing, creating was always something that I loved. So, yeah, when I finished my masters, I was applying for marketing jobs and then actually managed to land a dream job in Geneva, the view of the mountains out my window, working on global consumer brands in the fast-moving consumer goods industry. So this was literally the company that invented TV advertising. It was an incredible place to learn and grow and be exposed to. We were literally bringing new products to market, involved in the media campaigns and the launches and the consumer research. So it was fast, pace, crazy exhilarating ride. But yeah, so that was, that was kind of the start of my career as a brand strategist. That sounds incredible. And it also sounds like you're intuition guiding you to Paris and doing your business studies and things like that were the reason that probably landed you that job. Whereas had you not done that, you may not have gotten the job in Geneva. Yeah, potentially not. I mean, this was like, you know, a blue ship, Fortune 500 organization. And it's really hard to get into those kinds of companies and roles. So yeah, in hindsight, yeah, I think that would have helped a lot that I'd had that experience. Yeah. What kind of, because working in that kind of environment, in that level of, in that kind of an industry, what kind of takeaways did you get from being in those environments? I think in terms of how I support clients today, it was the most incredible experience of really understanding what it takes to stand for something meaningful in the hearts and minds of your audience. And that is particularly, I mean, I was working on brands that literally on the supermarket shelf, right? So this is companies who make brands like Ben and Jerry's ice cream, Lipton tea, or will be toothpaste, Gillette shaving foam, dub skin care. That's the type of world we're talking about. So it's incredibly competitive. And one of the biggest challenges is, you know, your product is probably the premium one because we were typically the premium brand and market leading brands. And next to you on the shelf, they might be a competitor product half the price. And so the whole, the whole role as the brand manager is how do I position this product as the one that's the only logical choice for the consumer, even if one next to it on the shelf is half the price. So this is where I really just learnt what it means to have a powerhouse brand, what it means to have iconic perception in buyers minds, what it means to have loyalty. And to really just symbolise an association that is so powerful that we won't kind of fear away even if something's cheaper because we know this is the brand, this is the product that is the best right one for us. So this is really where I think my fascination with Biosycology, which is such a huge part of what I do and how I support my clients and what I teach in my programs today, kind of really started from. And that's just that understanding of what is it that makes people decide and what is it that makes people buy in all kinds of market dynamics that might be going on. So you're like this beautiful wealth of knowledge that so many women can benefit from because I feel like being in the industry myself and then working alongside and with so many women in business that have services and products that they're passionate about and they're heart-centered about. And it's like the selling of it is the hardest thing and then positioning what is being sold is like in such a competitive market is really intense. Do you have some beautiful advice that you can share with women who are potentially starting out or really struggling to understand this positioning that you're speaking about? Yes. I think you do. I think you do. I think you do. You've got. So the most important thing really is that if you want to be seen as the no-brainer choice, it is about making your competition irrelevant. And the way in which your competition is going to be irrelevant is that you have so clearly, so relevantly and so resonantly articulated what's going on for your person in a way that no one else even comes close to. So it really comes down to obviously understanding how your person thinks and feels and what's going on for them. But this is also whether by a psychology piece comes in because it's about anticipating how they're going to move. Now they're, you know, what's going to make them move, what's going to make them respond. But one thing I would just say above all, and this is something I speak about a lot, is the role of your messaging is really that kind of conduit, it's that channel, it's that opportunity to have someone feel seen, have someone feel heard, have someone feel understood, and what that really evokes on the receiving end is a sense of belonging. Like that. Oh my gosh. They get me. But how do they know that's, that's me right there. Like, oh my gosh. Like stalking me like a fire. Are you breeding my diary? How did you know this? And when we feel that, even though we may not have an immediate change of results, even though we may not have an immediate solution, we already have an exhale of relief. It's like, oh my God. Thank God. Thank God. It's not not only me trying to figure this out, right? Because there's a real isolation experienced in whatever we're going through and navigating in terms of our area of struggle or challenge. And when someone has convinced that and hold space to feel that and recognize and acknowledge that, it's like a gravitational pull, which is why, I mean, my whole philosophy is about magnetic selling. It's about magnetizing. And when you know how to magnetize because you are so relevant and so resonant with your audience, then selling doesn't feel hard. You know, this is like the antidote to selling feeling like pressure or pushy tactics because we're literally attracting the people who are already seeking what we have to offer. And we're simply activating them to come to us with the same posts through our messaging and positioning so that we're making it easy at that first glance and that immediate heart beats worth of time to know where the one that gets it and the one that can guide them. Mm-hmm. Yes, I love this. I love this. And I have a question because I've seen this in myself and I've said, I love that you got like, I don't know if you've got two or three drinks. They've got red drinks. I love drinks. Yes. I love that. Two different types of water at tea. And breakfast shake, I haven't finished yet. The girl is hydrated. Your girl is hydrated. I love that. So everything you said makes sense, right? And it's beautiful logically. And it's like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. I can do that. And I know for myself and I know for so many women because we're coming into a space at a time where there's so many other women doing what we're feeling called to do. And then there are so many leaders in the industry that are having so much success, right? And so they're speaking to this and they're doing this and they're getting amazing results. And then when we're coming in as newbies, I'm speaking for my newbies here. And we're implementing some of what you're sharing. It makes sense. We're doing the work. And then we start sharing. But the sales are still not coming through. The clients are still not resonating. The people are still not feeling drawn to us yet. So we feel like we're doing it wrong. I would love for you to share some advice with women who are going through this around. Because I feel like in our head, we want that immediate result because we can see everyone else getting immediate results. But we're not seeing the extensive length of dedication and time they've put into building it. And so we think something's wrong with us. Yeah. Now is something wrong with us or is there do we need to give this grace? Do we need to give this time? What's happening? Well, I think it's a cause we need to give things grace and time. If you want to be in business long term, then the cleatback cliche expression rings true. It's not a sprinter. It is a marathon. I have been an entrepreneur in some description or another. I'll buy it always part time since 2013. When I first moved from London to Sydney with my shiny coaching qualification, desperate to change lives. And no one in the recruitment industry in Sydney gave us it because my CV said marketing and so on. Anyway, we can go into that story as well in a moment. But this has been an evolution and it continues to be an evolution in my brand and business. And anyone else that you admire or look at or consider to be a quote unquote leader or a success has also gone through their own evolution. I've changed my niche three times over the last decade. Okay, because the more that we spend time in our work, the more clarity we receive, right? The more clients that you're speaking with, working with, the more clarity you get around which client is actually my one, you know, and which type of person do I, can I best help? And what type of work do I really come alive in? And that is an evolving process, right? So your messaging in itself is an evolution. The most important thing is that you are expressing yourself and putting your voice out there and not waiting behind the scenes until you quote unquote think you have it perfectly right. You do not know what's going to work and how people are going to respond until you put it out there and spark that conversation. None of us do myself include it, right? I don't have a crystal ball where I know this is going to work. I have the ingredients of what is going to activate people because I have studied this and explored this and experimented with this for so long, but I still cannot guarantee that any single individual piece of content I put out is going to get a particular response. And sometimes I'm really surprised in a very unexpected way of things that I just literally had a stream of consciousness and went, wow, that'll, that needs to be shared, that'll do. I'm not going to perfect it any more than that and that'll be the thing that rings true for people. It is this idea of sparking a conversation first and foremost. How can you connect because conversations create those deeper connections and connections of what lead to clients? And you don't have to have much in place at all to create resonance with a group of people. And it was the same for me when I started out as like, oh my god, you know, but I'm not making six figures a year. So what do I have to talk about or claim? But here's the thing, especially right now in the current market. And I literally just did a live masterclass on this yesterday on this exact topic. I can't wait to watch the replay. We're currently in a trust recession, right? Because, and hopefully this gives you all a big sigh of relief because so many of these quote unquote leaders that we see as dominating the industry have flooded the marketplace with these massively big promises and then over to under delivered. So over promised under delivered and people have been burnt, people are more skeptical. And it's actually creating an opportunity for people who quote unquote smaller fish to have a big point of difference because what matters more than anything right now is the amount of accessibility and proximity that we have to the people we're looking to guide us and lead us. And the bigger the name, typically their biggest challenge is how do they scale presence and proximity, right? And so we actually have a huge advantage with smaller audiences and smaller groups and that we can be so much more present to our people. And that is what people are craving right? We're craving that the deeper level of personalization and individualization and intimacy in programs and services where we're really seen as that, you know, unique person and not a number in a big, huge program, we kind of get lost in the group, or there's no real time for you on group calls, because there's too many people to get through. So quickly, quick quick quick quick quick quick fast down 'cause it gotta go to the next person. And instead of just like deep like opportunities to express and get support. So, as you see as a huge advantage to becoming in, into this space now and be able to lead in a different way. And have that point of difference of, if you're wanting genuine connection, genuine support, then that can be a competitive asset. And when I first started out, I didn't even have a social media presence set for the first 18 months. I've never had a huge list of following in the grand scheme of things, but I've learned how to monetize the audience they have really, really well because of the things I'm talking about here. So, I think we should not like look at it as, oh, you know, I'm too late or I've missed the mark or I'll never quote unquote catch up. It's about like, what do you bring that's unique, that's a breath of fresh air? How are you contributing? And most importantly, how are you sparking the conversations that lead to that two-way dialogue in your content? And then the other thing is just making sure that you're being really clear and specific on what you're offering. If people aren't saying yes to you, it's usually because we haven't made it easy for them to say yes. Right, often we're like putting stuff out there, hoping people are gonna connect the dots that, oh, this person's about this, they must be able to help me with that. No, tell them. (laughs) Lissately, what you can help them with. If you're asking people to hop on a call with you, tell them why and what they're gonna gain from that free call. It's not just, but a free call with me, let's chat, let's connect. It's that kind of vague generalizations I often see. So often in my feed, and I'm like, I bet no one's reaching out because they don't know why they should. So I think in a time and space where everyone is less patient, higher skepticism, less trust, we just need to make it so overtly clear what the reason is for them to reach out to you, to connect with you, to buy from you, and really ensuring you're dialing that in in your messaging and your offers, of course, because that's where things become an easy yes. There are so many women that need to hear this, and I really look forward to them finding this podcast when they find it at the right time. I know it will be, and they'll have this really beautiful breath of fresh air of life. Okay, it's not me. There's nothing wrong with me, and I just need to follow through on all the beautiful advice that you just shared. So thank you so much for taking the time to answer that question. It's going to help so many women, and we will be talking towards the end of the podcast about how women can work with you, because you have so many beautiful offerings that I myself have explored as well. So we will talk more about that, but I wanted to touch on, because there's so many things, you talk about coming to Australia as a coach, and some like, what are you gonna be coaching around? And then you also talked about having changed your niche three times, or changed your, what was the word that you used? Now I can't remember. Yeah, the good niche. Was it niche? Yeah, okay. You also mentioned that you changed your niche three times, and I feel like these are two really important conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to start with the coming in as a coach? Yeah, well, it probably helps if I share what led me to study coaching in the first place. Yes. So I had landed this dream job in Geneva, and then I moved back a year later to London, because my now husband couldn't move to Switzerland, being Australian. They're even fussy about who they're in then Australia is. And so I went back to the UK office, and I have always been like this closet perfectionist. I've always been like a striver, and a high achiever. And very much certainly when I was younger, I think in hindsight, I didn't know this at the time, but I really connected my sense of identity and self-worth with results, you know? And so that was always like, it was always kind of like push, push, make it happen, study hard, and then it'll pay off. And it did multiple times over, even it was sometimes stressful and torturous on the way. And so I had this job, but I was feeling so out of my debt for the time. Like, it was such a fast pace environment. It was constant pressure, constant deadlines. Everything had to be done yesterday. And I was, I felt like I was struggling to come up for air. And I also just, I had this deep entrenched thought that I'm going to be found out somehow that I'm not really good enough for this. Like I can't really keep up the pace. And there was this massive imposter syndrome to the point where this one day my boss called me in to have a chat with me in like a little meeting room. I was like, oh, here it is. They're going to tell me, I don't know what I'm doing. We're going to have to, you know, call it quits here, Holly. And she was telling me how she was putting me forward as one of, I think she's described as a shining stars to the head of marketing, her boss. And that was the biggest wake up call for me because I was like, my perception of myself was so far removed from hers. And that really maybe questioned like a number of things. Like, why? Why did I think so lowly of myself? So poorly of myself. Why am I so self-critical at the time? And then things came to a head in this one moment that I will never forget. And we were having dinner on a Friday night with some friends in London, this Alfresco restaurant. I think it was, we were having pizza and wine and overlooking the Thames. And everyone was chit chatting about the weekend and their plans. I was just like, not there. Like I was there in my body and I was just not there in my soul. Oh my head. And all I could think in that moment was I guess I'll just be happy when I'm retired. And it was like, it's a terrible thing to think. I know. I was like 24 or something, 25. And that was a really long way away when I was going to be retired. And that was like this huge, like, oh my god, moment of-- I can't keep going the way I'm going. Like I'm stressed. I'm exhausted. I'm overwhelmed. I'm miserable. Even though on paper, I've got everything that I worked so hard to get. And that was like really confronting moment of, why aren't I happy? What's wrong with me? I got exactly what I aimed for. So that was the moment where I actually started exploring personal development for the very first time in my life. It was actually just this whole thing that I didn't even know existed up until then. And I went to these meditation classes, and then I studied NLP. And it just transformed how I thought about things. Like this recognition that my thoughts do not define me. My identity is not tied up in achievement. And there's so much more to me than the results I happen to get at school or uni or work or whatever. And once I had all these epiphanies, I was like, I want to share this with other women. And I suddenly had this whole new-- there's like some veil I'd been taken off my face. And I could suddenly see really clearly that other women in the workplace were struggling like, I was. You know, you think you're the only one who is struggling, who is feeling this way. And then you realize everyone around you is feeling the same thing because in the day, whatever as personal is also universal. And so then I was like, I want to help others. How do I do that? And that's where coaching just-- literally, I think I got this random promotional email. And I was like, oh my gosh, coaching. That's the answer. And so around an already crazy 9 to 5 in my corporate job, I studied to become a coach. It took two years. in my evenings and my weekends. I'm going to show it to go to like all day coaching seminars on my weekends, sometimes the Saturday and the Sunday. And then I'd be doing like pro bono coaching calls in the evenings after work. And I got my diploma, maybe a month before we moved to Australia. And I'd say, this is it. I'm going to move to Australia. I'm going to start a new. I'm going to work in HR and L&D. And I'm going to help other people feel empowered in the workplace. And then I got to the recruitment agents and said, "Nee, you know, like nah." [laughter] Compute says, "No, oh no." As you need to go to marketing. [laughter] They have no experience. I just had passion by the bucket load. And I had this shiny qualification that didn't really mean a whole lot to them, apparently. So my only option to explore coaching was to start my own business. That had not been in my game plan. I had not ever thought to myself, "I'm going to be an online entrepreneur." [laughter] And it kind of just, this is how the trajectory ended up shifting. And what, this was where I think my intuition was that it's strongest because we just moved from the other side of the world. I had no networks. We didn't yet have somewhere to live. I didn't have any friends there. I had no one who could vouch for me from a career perspective. I was totally alone, aside from with my husband. And yet, all the advice was, you know, just get a night of fire. Just get a full-time job. Just like, get on your feet, get settled. And then you might be able to do blah, blah, blah. And I'll say, "No." I was just very strong, "No." Bearing in mind that I'm someone who always kind of did go for the safer option in the past. And of course, the safer option was get a full-time job. Stupid. You don't even have many savings. Like, you don't know what you're doing. You don't have a business. You don't have any contacts. And I was like, if I get a full-time job, I don't know when I would ever get to looking at this and pursuing this. So I managed to do something that at the time was unheard of, which was negotiate a part-time senior brand strategist role at a Fortune 500 company in Sydney that gave me one day a week to do whatever the fuck I wanted, which at the time was explore. How can I coach? And how can I get into this field? And how can I build a network with this? And how can I see why I'm being called to this path? So it wasn't an easy decision. It was an incredibly stressful decision. Like, when you know you don't have a lot of savings to backing you up, when you genuinely feel financially constrained, like that is not like a movie take lightly. So I had four days a week in my marketing role, and one day a week to explore coaching, which was literally me talking to anyone in Sydney who had talked to me. It's now what I call the Who Know's Who Strategy that I teach my clients, or really just having into what networks do I have, and who can open a door for me to someone who may hold the key to an opportunity that's relevant. And so the first couple of years was literally me just doing in-person things. I managed to do workshops and facilitations and corporate public schools. And then I decided I really missed actually one-on-one coaching because I was doing a lot of training, which I loved and workshops. But that's when I wanted to make the move to coaching. But yeah, it was a real intuitive pull of, I'm going to have to rewrite the rules here for how things are done. And to this day, ten years later, that is how I sign off every email to rewriting the rules and asking 'cause that is fully what I did on my own terms, even though it was really scary at times. Wow, you are absolutely a representation of what's truly possible for women, especially when you lean into your intuition, because everything was telling you, you need to get a full-time job, and your intuition was like, no. And you managed to negotiate something that was unheard of, right? 'Cause you made a decision, you're a new intuition, and the universe provided, a way for you to be able to do both. So then how did that unfold for you, so that to be where you are now? Yeah. Just for clarity, you work part-time. You've got an incredibly powerful, successful business that you run on your terms and your part-time, 'cause you're also raising your kids, and yeah, yeah, right? So how did you get to this place? (laughs) 'Cause that's amazing. Thank you. So, little by little, and this is where I'm like, "Where have you started?" "What have your starting point is?" "You've just got to take that next step forward." Right? I didn't know how to do any of this, and I didn't know anyone either. So, as my coaching business grew, as my, at the time, training business grew, I got to a point where I had too much work for the one day. And so, I think my first goal had been, I just want to be able to replace the income I would have had for that day in my corporate role. And then, over time, the goal got bigger. I want to, you know, have two days, and then I can drop another day, and then eventually I wanted to match the income from my two days in my three days, and then I want to replace the income. So, it was like this kind of little yardstick goals as I went. Anyway, so the work became so much that I didn't have the time I needed. So, then I was able to negotiate a job share. So, I actually had three days a week in my corporate role, two days a week on my business. And then I had my first daughter in 2018. And so, I left on my turn to leave, and I didn't go back. And that was like the big like, "Shut!" [laughs] Leave for faith moment where I was like, "Now I can fully focus," you know, "quot unquote" on my business, because I don't have my nine to five taking up headspace, but I also now have a newborn. So, that's why it's never been. Actually, full time. So, then I'm navigating motherhood around a business, and at the time it was still around kind of the six figure per year mark. And basically, once Ella, my eldest, was kind of, you know, I had some childcare. That's when I could kind of focus a little bit more, but it was really about scaling how I was serving. So, that was the point at which I recognized I could no longer just do one-on-one. I needed a way where I could serve more with the same amount of time. So, that's when I launched my first group programs. And that was the year that I think I doubled my business for the first time. And then, in 2019, I niched down to what I currently do. So, previously, I was actually helping corporate women to explore more purposeful career path. And then, because I had my side hustle, and I was in corporate, I got so many people been like, "How did you do that?" Like, "How are you an entrepreneur?" I want to have a side hustle. And so, I had all this, like, appetite to show people how to actually become an entrepreneur. And that's when I decided, "Well, because I'd been told for about two years before I niched down that I should teach sales, because the way that I had landed all these incredible opportunities, got these unheard of negotiations in the corporate space. Everyone's like, "How? How?" And at one point, I think my opt-in was how to ask for what you want in a way that gets a yes, because I realized this was actually like this natural gift that I didn't really consider was selling. And yet, it is actually, when I think about it, what underpins exactly how I teach sales today, because the way to get what you want is to help someone else get what they want. And that's the ultimate premise, right, of selling. It's like, it's invitation that is already offering someone exactly what they want. And that's where the win-win comes in. So, I was like, "Oh, but I'm not a salesperson because I hate the bromarketing. I don't want to be a key in pushy and salesy and spammy and ik." And then I recognized, "But I get to do sales my way." And so much of sales is in the messaging that we use, that makes it a no-brainer, yes, instead of having to force someone into a corner. Say, "Yes, sorry, you're out or you're going to be blocked for another year," or all this stupid stuff people are told. And so that's when I niched down to sales and messaging strategist. And between 2019 and 2020, I doubled my business again. And then in COVID, I doubled my business again. And this is when I also had a newborn by this point. So then I had Olivia. So I had two babies. We were living regionally. And it really just came down to me doubling down on my, I guess, unique edge, as to how I did things that really was a breath of fresh air, especially to women who just didn't want a bar of how so many men were teaching them to sell. It just did not fill a line. It did not fill in integrity. It didn't fill authentic. It just opened up a whole new perspective shift of how easy and fun and magical selling can be. Because what selling is really about is imparting your gifts and your wisdom to the person who needs it and wants it. And when we have this perception that selling is somehow bad, what that leads us to is to withdraw our gifts from the world and kind of retreat. And in so doing, we're actually denying the people who really want our magic and our medicine because we're not there offering it. Hmm. something you just said that and I know it even for me and I know for many women this concept and you know what there are so many beautiful women like you know leading experts right in their industry that have shared something similar that sharing like selling is a gift right because it means that other people get access to something that they want and as you were saying that I'm like yes like of course like of course that's it and my mind straightaway went to the woman who I automatically go to the woman that doesn't necessarily want the gift or doesn't value the gift enough to pay for it and so I know that there are going to be so many women who hear what you're saying and they're like well that sounds beautiful like that sounds like how I want to sell and I want people to receive it but I feel and correct me if I'm wrong right because you you're the expert here but it feels like when we go to sell our gifts we have to be okay with some people not wanting our gift or not valuing our gift enough to pay for it but then just to keep focusing on the women that all the people that do actually desire our gift and they want to pay for it would you say that that's a fair thing to focus on? I'm really glad you brought this out because at any moment in time you're going to have people in your audience who are interested but just happy to look right now they just haven't quite arrived at that point of oh my god I need to sort this out right now and I'm actively seeking a solution I am ready to hire someone I'm ready to invest in this I'm ready to pay that is going to be at any given moment a smaller fraction of people and then the the wider group in your audience are going to be the ones who are kind of either assessing you out or they know you're the one who they're going to work with it's just they're working through another project or there's such and such in the way and they just need to wait until the timing's right okay so what where we trip up is in our sales messaging we're speaking to the interested lurkers and not they're ready to buy clients and that's why it's a fucking frustrating so often because people like oh yes that sounds cool oh but not right now you're like why why god damn it what's wrong with me what's wrong with the offer what did I miss what do I need to change in the funnel what do I need to change in this purist what do I need to tweak on the sales page for the 370th time no you just need to speak to the person who's like here I am this is what I want and I want it right now and that goes back to quite like changing some of the wording that we're using isn't it or what we're speaking to yeah yes so yeah there's so this is this is what I get into and a lot of my messaging techniques because it's actually nuanced shifts and without realizing unconsciously so many of us are speaking to a disempowered version of our ideal client who needs what you have to offer who might even recognize they need what you have to offer but has not yet sold themselves on I am ready or I am worthy of receiving what you have to offer sometimes it's a I don't believe I'm capable yet of being able to get this type of result or I can't spend that kind of money on myself even though they'll spend that type of money on their kids or other things right and so there's that point of awareness and recognition and in conviction and often we're speaking to the person who still needs persuading that this is the thing they need and what instead of the person who already knows that and what can happen is when there are people who are ready to buy they deselect themselves from our content because we haven't made it easy for them to dive straight in because we're so busy nurturing nurture nurture nurture nurture value value value take it slow because I know my audience wants to take it slow no some of your audience want to dive right in you making it easy for them to dive right in so something again I said in my masterclass is that the people who are ready to buy don't need really long lead times in nurture times and I I shared an example of someone who just paid him for for my high ticket program two days after hearing my name for the first time because they were ready to buy and you made it easy for them to buy made it easy because we need to understand you know is this my type of person fast we need to understand is this the right offer for me through the offer messaging clarity fast and then we need to literally be like here's the link as opposed to account email seven of my nurturing sequence I might just whisper to you about an offer that I could have but I won't mention the price yet and I'll say maybe we should chat and maybe we could book a call and blah blah blah blah right and so this is the this is the challenge this is the issue and there will be people in your audience who will get to the point of being ready and that might be in 30 days it might be in 90 days it might be in six months time and so the role of our content is too full for that reason okay we want to continue the conversation which is why I always talk about it being conversation for those who are interested but ready to learn can not ready to buy so that by the point in which they are ready to buy we are top of mind is the first choice but we also want to give like the fast access backdoor entry past to the ones who are like I'm here I've been told you know what you're doing where do I go now I love that I love that so much and I love the the clarity on on the differences and thank you so much for speaking to this and I'm actually going to do something slightly different than what I usually do is I actually want to tap into how women can work with you because you've given so much value but you've also given so much wisdom that women can actually start applying now and I want them to have an opportunity to to work with you one because you have beautiful masterminds and two because you also have a lot of courses that are so accessible for so women that they can literally start today to start you know soaking up your wisdom and applying it to their business so because then afterwards I really want to talk about your beautiful daughters so how how can women work with you knowing that I'll add all your links to the show notes as well. Yeah so look if you are interested ready to learn I have lots of amazing free resources and trainings you can just go to my website hollymacue.com and on my media page I have a link to all of the podcast interviews I've ever done where I go into lots of detail around messaging content offers if you're looking for more specific direction I want strategies I can put into practice right now I also have a wealth of incredible digital courses that are really practical and really do shift the needle if you're looking for messaging support then my workshop you had me at hello is a brilliant one it's literally how do have that reaction of oh my gosh you have me at hello in response to your messaging so that would teach you a lot of the biosecology messaging strategies that I've been talking about today and that's really comprehensive three-part workshop that you can go through in your own time I also have a fabulous one on how to sell with nothing but a Google Doc in the DMs if you'd love just a relaxed chilled casual no fast no frills way to selling because spoiler alert you don't actually need a sales page to sell I sell all my high ticket one-on-one programs on a Google Doc that isn't even branded and I tell you exactly how in that workshop and that's just $97 so my digital courses are also my website if you just want to kind of dip a toe into my world if you're looking for more you know deeper dive more personalized support I have a couple of different options you can work with me one-on-one and that starts from just a seven-day accelerator or you can join my magnetic selling group mentorship experience which is literally how I will guide you through this experience of falling in love with selling and knowing how to be seen at that no brain or choice and make the competition irrelevant this is high access high proximity to me there's six live calls with me every month where you can book a one-on-one hot seat and get my eyes on your sales page on your messaging on your offers your website the whole shebang plus you'll be in a community with amazing women there's mindset and energetic support their systems and strategy support and that's just it will forever change how you sell so that's my magnetic selling mentorship as well yay and you know what you sold that so well I know you weren't actually like selling selling that but you you presented it so beautifully and I'm really honestly so excited for the women who are going to receive this and be like oh I'm going to go and look and also for the women that are going to be like I need Holly and they go to get that you know back back backstage pass yeah this is great through to the good stuff so thank you thank you so much for that and the reason why I wanted to pop it in here rather than right at the end is because when you were growing your business you also you you had your second daughter Olivia Olivia and Olivia yeah it is Olivia I didn't want to say the wrong thing um and you said something to me and I was like I need to hear this story and I know other women need to hear this story you said that having your second daughter was was your spiritual awakening. And so we are taking a slight shift, ladies, because this is about holy story, but it's also about what's possible for women. And I know that these conversations are needed and really important, especially as a mother, myself. I would love to hear what that means that you had a spiritual awakening. - Yes, so this might be emotional. So I was pregnant with Olivia and one of my really good friends who is very tuned in to spirit guides, all the things knew that I was having a girl before I did. I didn't find out either of my pregnancies until they were born, which I think is quite rare these days. - Yes. - And she said, "Oh, she's gonna be a special one." Like she's here to change the world, what the word she used. And while I was pregnant with Olivia, I had this influx of spiritually minded people coming into my world out of nowhere. I didn't market myself as anything spiritual because that I wasn't. (laughs) And I just every client suddenly was this more conscious, you know, really in touch, the divine feminine, spiritual in some way, even if it wasn't the work that they offered to the world specifically. And it was just like this mind blowing experience of where they were coming from. It was like this initially just magnetized them in. And then I started working with clients in all kinds of incredible spiritual spaces. I have worked with dragon channelers. I have worked with somatic, shamanic experts. I have worked with clients who can channel Archangel Michael. I have worked with. - I love all of it. - You have to, I love all of it. - Experts in the bio field, who are psychics, who clear ancestral blocks from the body, Kundalini energy masters. Like every single type of spiritual practice, I have supported them with their messaging since. And some people go, "Oh, I don't know if this is too "woo for you, I'm like, try me." (laughs) - I've heard it all. I've even had a client who is a walk in Oracle. - I don't know what that is, but it sounds fascinating. - Walk in Oracle is someone who is like mind blowing and it's cool if people don't quite believe it, but she is someone who entered the body of someone who no longer wanted to be on earth. And so basically, she is now able to use her spiritual gifts through that former person who passed, and yet her, yes. (laughs) - Yeah, yeah, no, no. - No, no. - Anyway, though this just really opened me up to what is my role? Because I'm not a spiritual teacher or a spiritual channel. However, any client who's ever worked with me will know one or more moments in our calls, I will get this moment of goosebumps all over my body. And that's my, I recognize that's my guidance, my sign that we're onto something. And so every time I'm talking with a client, we're talking about their messaging or their offers or their business, there'll be this rush of goosebumps across my body. I'm like, this is important. We need to pay attention to this. And I firmly believe that although I'm not necessarily teaching anything, quote unquote, spiritual, I see myself as kind of this portal of helping those who are here to genuinely make the world a better place with their spiritual gifts and magnificence. I'm helping them know how to express and articulate the magnificence of those gifts in a way that others can receive them, can find them, can connect with them so much more easily and widely. Because the biggest challenge all of my spiritual clients have is like, I don't know how to describe what I do. Like it is so out there, so beyond the norm, I can't fit it into this one little concise statement. I'm so multi-paginate and multifaceted. And so that's what I really support them with. It's like, how can we talk about this in a way that is clear, that does bring in the right people who need what you offer. And yet doesn't feel like you're contorting any part of what it is you offer. And so I feel like this is kind of my contribution to a lifting the collective consciousness. It's my contribution to humanity. Is that I am helping more of these incredible light workers, way showers, beautiful souls to get out into the world and not hide their gifts, which are so sorely needed so that more people can experience them and benefit from them. And that is the ripple effect. I'm getting my goosebumps now as I say that. This is the ripple effect that is just so needed in the world right now, I think more than ever. This is-- there's a heaviness in the world right now. The world feels heavier than it did just a few years ago. And as a deeply sensitive empath, I struggle with that personally a lot. And I've struggled with the duality of showing up in my business and my beautiful lifestyle that I'm so grateful for in full recognition of what else is going on for other people. And I have struggled with that big time the last couple of years. I'll be very honest. So I see this as my role to play. And why everyone with a gift like this, the gift that I want to give them is that sales feels like this beautiful, empowering, purposeful, meaningful, necessary experience to fall in love with so that they are sharing and impacting as widely and expensively and deeply as possible. Yeah. That feels-- that feels really profound. And there's someone who has said those exact things. I don't know how to explain what it is that I do. And I'm multifaceted and multi-passionate, who also is very aware of what's happening in the world. And there are so many of us that can see what's happening. And we feel like, but how can I make a difference? What can I really do in these sorts of situations? And it's making yourself available so that the right people can find you. Because if everyone with these beautiful gifts had access to your gifts of sales and marketing and messaging, and they were able to present themselves in a way that the people they were meant to work with found them, they would be this massive ripple effect of healing and optimizing and transmutation and creating this beautiful level of peace and connection and community that would have an onset. Like, it would ripple effect into some of the really big traumas that are happening in the world in ways that we can't even imagine, because we've never done that before. And so I love that this is part of your mission, part of your awakening in that it's so much bigger than I think even you can imagine. Yeah. And I'm covering it as your talking now as well. Yeah, because I feel like so many women, one, we're so disconnected from ourselves and from our intuition and two, we're so disconnected from our power of how we can actually contribute. And one of my biggest missions is activating and awakening the matriarch in every woman. Because people are like, or women are like, but like, what can I do? And I'm like, be a fucking matriarch. Like rise up, if you can lead yourself and you can lead your family and that extends out into your extended family and your community and your clients and your colleagues. However it is that you're showing up, if you can actually lead all of that and every woman is leading like that, we're going to create a huge ripple effect of community and unity and oneness and healing and nurturing. But also like, everyone, I feel like there's this misconception around matriarch or feminine and that it's all soft and fluffy and receiving and it's like, no, there's like a stealthiness to the feminine, there's like this whip, right? It's like, when you have a mother and matriarch doing what she's here to do, she is both soft and nurturing, but it's also like, don't fuck with the matriarch, right? She gives you the look. I definitely don't conjure up the words soft when I think of the word matriarch. I think no. Bad ass. (laughs) Right? Bad ass because you can come home at any point. You are always welcome here, but don't fuck with me. I will love you unconditionally, but I also hold you to a higher standard. Right? Every woman had that philosophy for herself and her family. Can you imagine what kind of a well we would live in? It would be very different, very different. And so your gift of allowing women to express what it is they do and connect with the other people that they're here to serve is so beautiful and so profound. And I really, I really excited how it's going to play out in your girls' lives as well. Because you said that they're both, they're both really special star seeds. And they're all very special. that they hear to do big things. And I'm curious to know, like, have you had any, have you had any interesting experiences with them yet? Yes. Um, so there's, I mean, my girls, they come out with the most profound questions about their souls. I love that. My five-year-old asked me the other day, oh, she's nice. She, first, not that long ago, she came out with, just literally walking on the street, not talking about anything to do with this. And she said, "I'm glad my heart chose you." And then, and then, she asked me, "When I chose you, when my eyes open, I think this is just this crazy question, but I have no idea how to answer. And my eldest was constantly telling me what she's going to come back as. So sometimes it's a rainbow lorra key. Sometimes it's a mermaid. Sometimes it's a dolphin. But this whole, like, what I'm thrilled is that there's no fear of the next journey in terms of the our next soul's evolution. And I don't even, I haven't even spoken in the real depth about this because it's not really my era of expertise whatsoever. And yet, somehow my girls are just really tuned into the fact that we have a soul that, you know, they chose us for this particular lifetime. There will be other lifetimes. It's all going to be just a journey. And that's really special. They ask me, yes, crazy questions that I can't answer most of the time in relation to all of that. But I think Olivia, my youngest in particular, she's taught me, just to your point about the matriarch. She's taught me the real importance of advocacy. Oh, that's such an important word that gives my body goosebumps. Yeah. She has taught me how to speak up for those that cannot. And that started when she was born. So she had multiple health challenges when she was born. We actually had really challenging first 12 to 18 months in lockdown with no one to support us. We're the toddler and needing to travel into state for specialist medical support for her. And living regionally and being a second time mum, I could see that certain things were not right. And I was just getting phobbed off left, right, in center by all these medical professionals, you know, GPs, like as long as she's putting on weight, we're happy ears. As long as this doesn't this don't worry about it. And I was like, no, this isn't normal. This isn't right. And I'm so glad that I was a second time mum. And this is why she switched. And I think because I wouldn't accept that. And in the end, she got a diagnosis over Zoom from someone who actually knew what they were talking about, even though face to face, multiple people local to us had totally missed what was going on with her. And had I not, you know, even though I was socially deprived or sort of overwhelmed or had a newborn, had a toddler, I could have just been like, oh, well, you know, what do I know? I'm not the doctor. But instead, I was like, really felt like there's very strong sense of no, I need to make a stand here and get her the support she needed. And then two years later, when she was almost three, we had another incident with her where she, we were away for the weekend and she woke up screaming in pain, pointing at her knee and I was like, this, this need, we need to go to eat. Like this isn't normal. So we went to the emergency hospital and they didn't extra-ankant see anything. So they put her in a cast and I knew at the time, I'm like, this isn't, no, she's not broken anything. I would have known if she'd fallen and broken something, put her in this cast, sent her home with me and the whole time, I'm like, that's not it, that's weird. So when we got back to where we lived, I called the doctor because I wanted a second opinion because she was in a, like, a cast and like, she's not even three and I was like, I'm not waiting two weeks to have a fracture clinic checkup. I want a second opinion that she's even got a fracture. And then right at the end of the call, I happened to say, she's also been having fevers and I just thought of mentioning it because I thought it was totally separate and they gasped and said, oh my gosh, this could be a bone infection. Take her to emergency. They put any dust drops to back-o-foot daycare and I'm like racing around that house. Didn't know how long I had to pack for because I didn't know what was happening. Restored to emergency. And then we had this five-day period of not knowing from a mass they detected on her hip if she had a tumour or if she had an infection. So the worst five days of my life. Yeah. Everything went through my head. I was spiraling into all different directions and scenarios and this isn't how I wanted it to be. It turned out it was an infection that the first hospital had missed. The second hospital had missed and the third hospital finally diagnosed through an MRI so she was under anesthetic and they operated right away. And she had a joint and bone infection where there's a little bug that she probably have just been RSV drilled from almost one side of her hip bone to the other like massive. She was in a wheelchair for six weeks. She was under antibiotics for six weeks, all the things. It was massive time where everything else in the world just ground to a standstill. And so they both of those incidences with Olivia really taught me we need to follow our gut and our intuition even when even when an expert telling us this is it right. And so this is what I think is so important is that always follow your intuition. No matter what some girl on the internet might be telling you like is it right for you? Does this make sense for you? And equally this is really I think sparked much bigger sense of mission and passion to speak up for others in the world who do not have a voice. And you know children can't advocate for themselves. We have to that's the role we play as mothers and matriarchs. But equally in our business we can use our presence in our platform and our leverage and our leadership in ways that go far beyond serving our clients in our day to day work. And so that has been a real mission and priority of mine the last two years in particular is to really speak up and play my part however small that might be whether it's raising awareness or whether whether it's like fundraising I've done like fundraising for donations for causes close to my heart. But I think we've never been in a time where we recognize the wild injustices in the world the privileges that we have that others don't. And I wrestle with that a lot I wrestle with my white privilege a lot because sometimes it doesn't feel fair that I have privileges that I do and others don't. But in that it's coming back to the sense of power that you mentioned of how can I use this for good and to shine a light for others in any way that I can. And so this idea of me supporting through messaging has become so much bigger. It's like what is my message to the world? What is the message that can uplift others? Not just in business but in humanity full stop. And I truly believe that Livy was the catalyst for all of this who have got me on track with my actual solo line mission even though over the years I felt very lost and confronted and not known what I was meant to be doing and now I finally do. So that that's huge. That is huge and powerful and beautiful and thank you so much for sharing that with us. I actually feel like that's a really beautiful place to complete our podcast as much as I want to continue talking to you and I have so many questions. I also have to honor your time and the listeners times. We may need to come back for a number two but I really appreciate your depth. Like truly, I truly appreciate your depth and your advocacy and the way that you so eloquently speak it. So thank you for being on this podcast and sharing your beautiful magic and your wisdom and your medicine and I truly look forward to so many women receiving it. Thank you so much for having me tonight. You're so welcome lovely. Thank you for being here gorgeous woman for rising with us, remembering with us and refusing to shrink inside a world that benefits from your silence. If this episode moved you, cracked you open or reminded you of who the hell you are becoming, share it with a woman who is ready to rise to. I want to invite you to follow, subscribe and leave a rating so this message becomes too loud, too wild and too undeniable to be ignored. The movement grows because of women like you, women who choose truth over comfort, liberation over obedience and voice over disappearance. You can connect with me, Samantha Sanford at Rebel Neatriarch and all links to our guest are in the show notes below. Until next time, stay rooted, stay rebellious and remember the world changes when women refuse to disappear.